asked the Taoiseach whether he is prepared to consider the establishment of a department of social welfare to take over and co-ordinate the functions relating to social welfare now carried out by a variety of Government Departments and Ministers; and, if so, whether it is his intention to introduce proposals at an early date for that purpose.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Social Welfare.
The question of the setting up of a Department of State in which the administration of a number of social services would be concentrated was considered more than once by the Government. Such a step would be attended by many difficulties and it is not clear that it would result in any economy or increased efficiency in the administration of the services commensurate with the disturbance of existing arrangements that would be involved. The Government did not, accordingly, proceed with a detailed investigation of the matter, and the present circumstances are not favourable for the prosecution of such an investigation.
Will the Taoiseach say, in view of the fact that most other countries have co-ordinated these social services under one Department, what set of circumstances prevents a similar co-ordination of these activities under one Department here?
These services can very naturally be administered by the Departments that are at present administering them, and any co-ordination that has to be effected will be effected by the Government as a whole. In other countries they have different organisations. If we knew in greater detail what is done in other countries, it is possible we would find that all these services are not concentrated in the one Department either. For my own information I had compiled lists of services of a social character that are administered by several Departments and they fall in the main very naturally to be administered by these Departments.
Will the Taoiseach say what similarity there is in services such as the control of sewerage, which is undertaken by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, and widows' and orphans' pensions, which is also controlled by his Department? Where is the similarity there?
I take it that in one form or another it would be a question of Governmental activities of a social character. It is fundamentally a question of activities of a social character. I have a list here but I think, Sir, that if I were to go into this matter it would become a debate.
Will the Taoiseach say which, if any, of the Departments dealing with the matters to which he has referred has gone into the matter of a careful estimate of maintaining families, say, of varying sizes, under ordinary conditions?
I am afraid I did not catch what the Deputy said.
When the Taoiseach speaks of social welfare, I take it that the position with regard to the family, and the maintenance of the family up to a particular state of well-being, is contemplated, and I would ask him whether any one of the Departments to which he referred had made an estimate of what was, say, the minimum amount required to maintain a family or families of different sizes in a fair state of wellbeing.
I do not know whether that has been examined by any Department in exactly the form in which the Deputy has asked me, but I do know that the whole question of the minimum amount necessary for the maintenance of families, and so on, has come up in another connection.
Is the Taoiseach aware that at the present time, and for some time past, individuals in the State have to go to two Departments in the one week in order to get benefits from two social services?
It is quite possible.
Is not that all the more reason for bringing about some method of co-ordination?
Each of us, every day of our lives, has to go to different Departments for the different things we require.
But this is for one thing.
No, it is not for one thing. You will find that there are two different aspects. In the Dáil, on another occasion, we had a debate on this matter also, and I can tell you that it has been examined to a certain extent, and the preliminary examination led us to the conclusion that there would not be greater economy or greater efficiency if these were combined. They fall, as I can show from the list I have here, so naturally under the heading to be administered by the Departments that are administering them at present that, in the main— there may be a few to which this does not quite apply—they are related to the activities of the Department which is administering them.
Would the Taoiseach consider setting up a commission to examine that matter more thoroughly?
Really, the present is hardly the time for doing that. The main thing at the present time, I suggest, is to try to meet the very urgent necessity there is for taking action in various directions.