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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Mar 1942

Vol. 85 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Censorship and Deputy's Speech.

I gave notice to-day that I intended to raise on the adjournment the unsatisfactory reply of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures to a question I addressed to him this afternoon as to the manner in which he has exercised his powers as Censor. It might be well if, at the outset, I were to indicate my general view in respect of censorship. I have already expressed my views on censorship, but lest there should be any misunderstanding of my attitude, I should like to say that, so far as I am personally concerned, I am favourable to a reasonable censorship of obviously propagandist news and obviously propagandist views from the propaganda machines of the belligerent countries. I am favourable also to a censorship of articles which are critical of countries with which we have friendly relations, and to a reasonable censorship of speeches or articles which cast doubt upon the genuineness of our neutrality, or which endeavour to drag us towards one set of belligerents or the other. I believe that, in present circumstances, the obviously same policy for us to pursue is a policy of making sure that our neutrality is known to be a genuine form of neutrality and that we are not the plaything of one set of belligerents or the other.

That is my general viewpoint in respect of censorship, and, notwithstanding my criticism of the Minister's recent action, I must say that I do not share the views of others, as expressed in this House, as to the manner in which the Censor's powers have been used in respect of external matters. I think that, generally speaking, the censorship in respect of external matters has been applied in a reasonable manner, and it is in the field of external affairs that I think there is need for particular care and particular caution and, above all, the overriding consideration that nobody ought to be allowed in the present grave circumstances to make comments on external affairs which are calculated to put us in a false light with any of the belligerents. The whole concern of a small and relatively defenceless people such as we are in present circumstances should be not to go about trailing our coats, but to keep to the middle of the road, taking care that we are not pushed hither and thither by every kind of pressure, or by every economic or political breeze that blows.

In respect of external matters I had no great cause to complain against the manner in which the powers of censorship were exercised until recently, when I discovered, as the rest of the country to its amazement discovered, that a member of this House, in exercise of his citizen rights, admittedly, delivered a speech for which he was permitted to secure publicity not merely in our newspapers but on the wireless, and which I can only describe as a passionately vehement speech, in the course of which he advocated a declaration of war against certain countries with which we have friendly relations to-day. That advocacy of an open declaration of war by this Deputy was permitted the widest possible publicity in our newspapers and on the radio. When I saw that, I began to wonder what type of censorship we had in this country and what functions the Censor regarded as functions properly performable by him. I think the whole country has begun to wonder why the Censor permitted such widespread publicity for a speech which was very definitely calculated to represent to one set of belligerents that there was a public opinion in this country favourable to intervention on the side of another set of belligerents. I do not believe, of course, that Deputy Dillon represented 2 per cent. of our people when he made that speech. That is immaterial. He was quite entitled to make that speech if he wished, and if he felt any pleasure in making it, but when we have a Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures and a censorship in operation, surely it is highly undesirable, and highly negligent on the part of the Censor, to permit the publication of such a speech in our Press and on the radio, and apparently to surrender completely whatever powers he had to suppress the publication of that speech in other countries where it was definitely calculated to misrepresent us.

Let us examine for a moment the reasons given by the Minister to-day in an attempt to justify his complete abdication of his powers in respect of censorship, so far as that speech was concerned. The Minister said he decided to permit the publication of the speech for the following combination of reasons:—

"(1) That with the powers which we then possessed we could not have effectively stopped the export of the speech for publication abroad; (2) that the speech was a premeditated and deliberate statement of policy on an important occasion by a Deputy who was then Deputy-Leader of the second biggest Party in the State; and (3) that copies of the speech might have been exported beforehand by the agents of foreign newspapers and others for use in their own countries."

One of the reasons given is that the Minister could not have effectively stopped the export of the speech for publication abroad. Even if the Minister could not have effectively stopped the speech being exported, he was nevertheless bound as Censor to endeavour to stop the publication of the speech. If a person is charged with the administration of the law and certain people break the law, there is none the less an obligation on the administrator of the law to endeavour to uphold it, even though he may have to see occasions on which the law is broken in defiance of his efforts to uphold its sanctity and its majesty. In this case, the Censor appears to have decided that he could not effectively stop the export of the speech. In other words, if he could not be sure of 100 per cent. success, he was not going to be satisfied with 90 per cent., and therefore, he completely abandons his functions as Censor in respect of preventing the export of the speech.

The next reason given is that the speech was a premeditated and deliberate statement of policy. Is that to be a new reason for people getting publicity for views which will misrepresent us in other countries? All one has to do now, apparently, is to say that one wrote it in as a deliberate and premeditated statement of policy, and once it is deliberate and premeditated, once it is deliberately and systematically calculated to misrepresent us, according to the Minister, that is a reason for the non-prohibition of its publication. The third reason seems to be the weakest of all—that copies of the speech might have been exported. There is no certainty that they were exported, but they might have been exported, and, because they might have been exported, the Censor merely sat down and permitted the widespread publication of the speech in the newspapers and on the radio.

These seem to me to be very strange reasons for permitting the publication of a speech which, more than any other speech delivered in this country for the past two years, has definitely done us harm from the standpoint of endeavouring to show that our neutrality is of a genuine variety. That speech was a very obvious speech of hostility towards countries with which we are not at war, with which we are on friendly terms and have friendly relations, and in which in certain cases we maintain ambassadorial representatives. Yet the Censor here, notwithstanding that he must have known that a speech of that kind misrepresented us, and was in no sense in tune with the aspirations of our people, gave his benediction to very wide publicity for that speech.

Contrast the treatment of that speech with what has happened in other cases. There is a weekly Labour paper published in Dublin known as The Torch. It wanted to publish a poster one weekend, the contents of which were “Fill the larders—with what?” One would not imagine that a poster of that kind was going to bring down the fabric of this State but because a weekly Labour paper, thinking of the conditions under which working-class people were living and bearing in mind the advice given by the Minister for Supplies to fill the larders while the goods were there, produced a poster asking, “What are the larders to be filled with?”, the Censor apparently thought he was preserving this State from destruction by refusing to permit an innocent poster of that kind to be published. So the position is that a Deputy can declare war, apparently in the name of this country, on certain States with which we have friendly relations, but a weekly Labour paper cannot ask the simple question of its readers: “What are the larders of the working-class people to be filled with?” and if it does it will merit censorship. If it were to advocate a declaration of war in its poster, then, presumably, like Deputy Dillon it would have been able to get away with it as he was with his speech.

I made a speech which, I think, I was entitled to make, and when examined was found to be quite constitutional. In that speech I said that I would persuade the trade unions not to apply for a negotiation licence under the Trade Union Act of 1941. That is not an offence because a union need not make application for a negotiation licence. I said in the House that I would endeavour to persuade the trade unions not to make application for that negotiation licence so that the Act could not be operated, and it cannot be operated if the licence is not applied for.

But, within an hour after I had made that speech, the Censor was despatching telegrams to the newspapers prohibiting them from publishing a speech of that kind. The speech was made by myself in the first instance, and was repeated by Deputy Corish. But there were no telegrams sent out when Deputy Dillon's speech was made. My only offence was that I was talking on behalf of trade unions to an Irish Government on a matter of internal policy which did not affect our relations with any other State, and because I made a statement of that kind the Censor felt obliged to despatch telegrams here and there, and subsequently to issue an Emergency Powers Order prohibiting the publication of that portion of my speech, a speech which was constitutional in conception and quite constitutional in the manner in which I desired to exercise the course of action which I then foreshadowed.

Let me contrast by another example the manner in which the censorship powers are being exercised, in this instance by a complete close down on a matter of purely internal politics. Nobody will be permitted to suggest to an Irish farmer that he ought to get 51s. a barrel for his wheat. The Censor will not permit you to do that, although it is a purely domestic internal matter between the farmers of this country, the producers of wheat, and the Government, the guarantors of the fixed price.

The Deputy is now getting rather far away from Question No. 5.

Only to the extent of contrasting the manner in which the censorship powers are being applied. You have the position that you cannot get publicity for a simple poster issued by a trade union weekly paper, or for a statement dealing with wheat prices, all small internal matters upon which every section of the community might have a row with the Government but still want to keep the country out of the war. You cannot get publicity on these internal matters: wheat prices or objections to the Trade Union Act. Neither will you be allowed to ask what the poor people have in their larders, but you can get away with a declaration of war on certain States. That type of censorship seems to me to be of a most bewildering variety. I think we ought to have some definite statement from the Minister as to the fundamental principles upon which he thinks the censorship should proceed. My concern in this whole matter is not Deputy Dillon's speech which so obviously misrepresents the position in this country. So far as we at home are concerned that speech misrepresents the viewpoint of the overwhelming majority of our people, but what I am concerned with is the mischievous effect of it abroad, and with the action of the Minister in permitting its mischievous effects to be spread abroad by his inactivity in the matter of censorship.

As I said earlier, I think a reasonable censorship ought to be exercised in respect of external matters, but no censorship was exercised in the case of Deputy Dillon's speech which dealt with external matters. In respect to internal matters, or what might be described as home issues, there should, I think, be a broad field allowed for discussion and criticism, even of pungent criticism if it is not in any way calculated to imperil the State, so long as we maintain a definite policy of nonintervention in this war, and so long as we can unite our people on a policy of genuine neutrality as between the States engaged in this war. I do not know what the Censor's views are on internal, as compared with external, matters. His recent action seems to me to call for a statement on policy from the Minister, and I hope that we will get it from him this evening.

Deputy Norton has improved somewhat since this afternoon, when he accused me of partiality and of bias in favour of sentiments expressed by Deputy Dillon in his speech, and of giving him my Ministerial benediction. I do not give my benediction to everything that appears in the newspapers. We only stop as little as we can, and because a thing is allowed publication in a paper is no proof that I, in any way, personally approve of it. I thoroughly disapprove of the sentiments expressed by Deputy Dillon. I do not believe, as he said it was, that it is disloyalty and treachery for the Irish people to judge for themselves what their own interests are in this war. We have every right to judge for ourselves, and we have every right to keep out of it as other nations have done—they took very good care to do it—unless we are attacked. The fact that Deputy Dillon's statement was published is no indication that I am in any way partial to that statement, or that I gave it my benediction. I think I gave very reasonable reasons as to why we allowed publication of that particular statement. It would have done more harm than good to the neutrality of this country had we made an unsuccessful attempt to stop it.

Now, I do not propose to deal any more with that matter. We have in the censorship, generally, shut out the propaganda from the belligerents that Deputy Norton spoke about. We allow the publication of news about the war, but we do not allow propaganda here in favour of our going into the war, and I do not believe that the publication of Deputy Dillon's speech had the slightest effect in this country.

The people know Deputy Dillon too well to be guided by anything he says and particularly his statement that we were disloyal and treacherous not to go into the war. Deputy Norton came back to some internal matters. There were two things he raised to-night. I do not remember offhand particularly some matter of a poster of a Labour paper, but it may have been that, while the poster itself was innocuous, it had reference to an article that was itself censored. I do not know and cannot tell. He referred to what he called his constitutional speech which we censored on him, in relation to the Trade Union Act. I was not here at that time, but I looked up what was censored and what the papers were not to publish. They were told not to publish certain extracts from Deputy Corish and Deputy Norton. Deputy Corish's statement ran this way:

"I want to tell the Minister that the revolutionary spirit"

—not the constitutional spirit referred to by Deputy Norton, but the revolutionary—

"is not finished in this country, and that I for one, and I say this with all the seriousness and all the responsibility I have, will advocate that the law will not be observed when this law is passed, and I will take the consequences."

Evidently, whatever Deputy Norton had said before that had a certain tone in it which Deputy Corish took up and translated into words in talking about the revolutionary spirit being not yet dead.

Then Deputy Norton, himself, on the same day, said:

"Even though it became the law, he would not recognise it."

That is all we have done in regard to the Trade Union Act. I went back over the files, and, as far as I know, these were the only two things that were cut out in relation to the big discussion that took place here in the Dáil and throughout the country in regard to that Act. If Deputy Norton or anybody else says that we censored a proper discussion of the issues involved in that Trade Union Act, I challenge him to read that file, where there are some hundreds of newspaper articles, letters and speeches by various Deputies on the Trade Union Act. It is all nonsense to say that we are in any way censoring, or attempting to censor, discussions on matters of internal policy, matters that are properly open for discussion and that will not cause any harm to national security.

The question of wheat is a different matter. Last night many hours were taken up here in this Dáil regarding the consequences of a 20 per cent. shortage of wheat. I would not like to see it, but I ask any Deputy to imagine the debate in this Dáil if we were 40 per cent. or 50 per cent. short in our wheat requirements. During last autumn the Government fixed a price for wheat. It was 7/- per barrel more than the English price. Everybody in the country knew it was a fair price and the farmers knew that, too, but a few people—purely for political purposes — created an agitation and impressed a number of farmers throughout the country, who did not know how to grow wheat, that it was unfair to ask them to grow it at 45/- a barrel. Finally, the Government gave 50/- a barrel, but there are certain people in this country, and certain Deputies in this House, who, if the Government gave 100/- a barrel to-morrow, would be demanding 120/-. We know that, and it is purely for political purposes——

Deputy Corry was one of them.

I do not care whom the cap fits. I am making a general statement. That price of 50/- a barrel was about 10/- more than the English farmer got, who has to pay very much more in wages, rent and rates. I do not regard this as a debating society, particularly in the present emergency. After all, this country is facing one of the gravest crises in its history, and there is no one but someone with the mind of an anarchist who would wish to see the decisions properly arrived at here treated with contempt. Somebody must govern the country, somebody must decide what price is to be paid for wheat, and somebody has to take the responsibility for enforcing that price. If we were short of wheat in the coming season, it would be a very big disaster indeed. A nation that is short of food in present modern warfare might as well be short of armies, and it is as much treachery to advocate the non-growing of wheat as it is to advocate disarming the Army.

That has not been advocated here.

No one advocated it here.

But it was advocated by telling farmers that they were unfairly treated because they were not getting a price which someone put up to catch a few votes. I am as much interested as anyone on the Labour Benches, or any other benches, to see that the farmers of this country get a fair crack of the whip.

Was £2 a barrel a fair price?

We want to see they get, not only a fair crack of the whip during the war, but that they get it afterwards. I am also concerned that the people of the country get food at a fair price.

The bishops appealed that the farmers should get a fair price.

And it was censored.

If Deputies are going to talk, I will sit down. The Deputy talked of the way in which the Censor had acted.

I have had to call the Deputy's attention to the fact that he went away from Question No. 5. I am afraid he is away from it now.

What about the bishops advocating a price?

The Deputy could ask me a question in a sentence which would take an hour to answer. I am trying to answer in a few minutes the questions he has put. I say this, in conclusion. The censorship is being operated in a reasonable fashion, and it is trying to prevent any damage being done to the neutrality or the interests of this country, and in internal affairs it is being operated to give the highest possible measure of discussion of ordinary matters of politics and economics.

The Dáil adjourned at 10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 11th March.

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