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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Mar 1942

Vol. 85 No. 17

Committee on Finance. - Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1942—Second and Subsequent Stages.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. As this is the annual Defence Forces Bill, provision is made at Section 2 that the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts will continue in force for another year, that is, up to the 31st March, 1942. Several other provisions have been found necessary or desirable during the past 12 months, and I shall explain each of them as briefly as possible.

Since the commencement of the present emergency, a number of officers have been promoted to acting higher rank. In fact, the vast majority of promotions effected during the emergency have, for obvious reasons, been on an acting basis. It is, of course, inherent in acting promotion in any walk of life that the promoted person must expect to revert to his ordinary state when the necessity for his retention in the higher position ceases to exist or if he fails to give satisfaction in the higher post, and officers of the Defence Forces who have received acting promotion are well aware that they are liable to reversion at any time. Acting promotions were, however, in normal times of such rare occurrence that they have never been specifically mentioned in legislation, although there is, of course, perfectly adequate provision of a general nature for promotion, whether substantive or acting. The question of reversion from acting higher rank has not heretofore been dealt with by legislation but has been covered by Army Regulations. In view, however, of the extent to which acting promotions are now occurring, it is considered desirable to make the matter quite clear, and specific provision is accordingly made for such promotions and for reversions therefrom at Section 4 of the present Bill which replaces the existing legislation regarding the promotion of officers.

The provision in question is being made retrospective as from the commencement of the emergency. Similar provision in regard to non-commissioned personnel is made at Section 5. Section 3 defines a non-commissioned officer as meaning a person holding any of the non-commissioned ranks or grades of marine rating set out in the No. 2 Act of 1940 except those of private and seaman.

Section 6 provides that deductions may be made from a soldier's pay to meet any penalties, damages, compensation or costs awarded by a civil court before which he has been charged with an offence. In that connection, there has recently been a number of cases where irresponsible soldiers have damaged civilian property in such ways as by breaking windows. If these men were tried by courtmartial or by their commanding officers, it would be possible, under existing legislation, to deduct compensation in respect of the damage from their pay. It is considered, however, that the general principle regulating the exercise of the concurrent jurisdiction of courtsmartial and civil courts in dealing with civil offences should not be departed from. It has always been agreed that where a soldier goes outside military quarters and injures civilians in person or property, the civil courts should deal with him. It would not accord with the legal conception of the Army vis-a-vis the civil population, ever since the first Defence Forces Act was passed, that civilians seriously injured in person or property should have to seek their redress from courts composed exclusively of military. As the Acts stand, however, damages or compensation awarded by a civil court cannot be recovered from a soldier's pay. Section 6 of the present Bill is, therefore, desirable.

Last year's Act provided that no soldier or reservist would be entitled to be discharged during a period of emergency. It has been found administratively desirable to embody in legislation the method adopted in practice of fixing the status of men retained in service under that provision when their ordinary engagements have expired. This is now being done at Section 7 of the present Bill, which retains last year's provision and also, as a matter of clarification, suspends the operation of certain provisions of earlier Acts relating to the same subject.

A section similar to Section 8 of the present Bill was included in last year's Act but applied only to officers of the Forces. In view of the large number of Reserve officers now out on permanent service, it is considered desirable that such officers should be similarly covered. The new section, which replaces the previous one, provides accordingly.

Section 9 amends Section 17 of the No. 2 Act of 1940, which relates to commissioned ranks in the Defence Forces. To place beyond any doubt the fact that marine officers will come within the scope of the Defence Forces (Pensions) Scheme, which mentions military ranks only, a new sub-section (3) is being inserted. Apart from the reference to the scheme, the subsection is a repetition of the existing sub-section (3) of Section 17 of the No. 2 Act of 1940. Two new sub-sections—(4) and (5)—are also being added to enable military officers appointed to the Marine Service to be given marine ranks and vice versa. These two sub-sections are already contained in the Emergency Powers (No. 97) Order, 1941, but are now being enacted in permanent form.

Sub-section (4) was rendered necessary by the fact that certain officers of the Defence Forces, who were not specially commissioned to the Marine Service but were transferred to it from the military side, could not otherwise have been given the appropriate marine ranks. The opposite might also hold and hence the desirability of sub-section (5).

Section 18 of the No. 2 Act of 1940 which relates to non-commissioned ranks and ratings is being similarly amended. The new sub-sections (4) and (5) apply the pensions scheme to ranks and ratings other than the military ranks at present specifically mentioned therein. The new sub-sections (7), (8), (9) and (10) provide for transfer from military ranks to marine ranks and ratings and vice versa.

Section 57 of the No. 2 Act of 1940 and Section 8 of the Act of 1941 conferred the right of restoration to their former civil employment on temporary officers, soldiers who enlisted for the duration of the emergency and reserve officers and men called out on permanent service. These sections were inserted in the Acts to protect the interests of persons giving good and loyal service to the State and the questions have been under consideration as to whether members of the categories mentioned should, in fact, enjoy the State's protection if they fail to give good and loyal service; and whether civilian employers should be forced to take back into their service persons who are dismissed or discharged from the Defence Forces because they have rendered themselves unsuitable for retention therein.

As a result of such consideration, it is now proposed that the following classes should be deprived of the right of restoration to their former civil employment on ceasing to be members of the Defence Forces:—

(a) officers dismissed with ignominy; dismissed by sentence of courtmartial or dismissed by the President;

(b) soldiers discharged with ignominy; discharged by sentence of courtmartial; or discharged for having wilfully made a false answer on attestation, for misconduct or on conviction by the civil powers;

(c) unapprehended deserters.

Many other types of cases were considered, but it was eventually decided to confine the proposal to those types which I have mentioned, and I think Deputies will agree that the proposal is a reasonable one in relation to such cases.

Officers are dismissed only for very serious offences. If an officer proves himself so unfit for retention in military service as to merit dismissal, he has failed in his duty to give loyal and faithful service and has forfeited his right to the protection of the State. In addition, it would be unreasonable to force an outside employer to take him back into his service. The same arguments apply to soldiers discharged with ignominy or by sentence of courtmartial.

As regards the other categories, a soldier who makes a wilfully false answer on attestation, necessitating his discharge when that fact is discovered, obtains a contract with the State by false pretences and puts the State to considerable expense for pay, maintenance, equipment and training. He does not, therefore, merit State protection. Deputies will understand that a soldier is not normally discharged for a relatively harmless matter such as giving a wrong age or address on attestation. Discharge occurs only in respect of some serious misstatement.

The position is similar as regards discharge for misconduct. A record of discharge for misconduct on a man's discharge papers has such an effect on his prospects in civilian life that this reason for discharge is reserved for the most serious cases. It would be unjust, therefore, to force a civilian employer to employ a man discharged on that ground. Again, in connection with discharge as a result of conviction by the civil power, a man is not discharged because of conviction of what I may term a "noncriminal" offence, such as, for instance, breach of traffic regulations. Generally some serious offence is involved so that the arguments already mentioned again apply.

Deputies will note that unapprehended deserters have been included —these are the persons mentioned in Section 11 as persons to whom Section 119 of the Principal Act applies—but that there is no reference to apprehended deserters. The position of the latter class is that, on being apprehended, deserters are tried by courtmartial and generally sentenced to a term of detention. They are not, however, on completion of that sentence, as a rule discharged from the Defence Forces, but are required to complete their Army engagement with a period equal to the period of absence and detention added. It is considered that a soldier who purges his offence and completes his Army engagement, should not be deprived of the right of restoration to civilian employment. If, however, the circumstances of his desertion are such that, on completion of the sentence of detention, it is considered undesirable to retain him in Army service, he is discharged "for misconduct" and he would thus, under the present proposal, forfeit his right.

I have thought it well to deal with Sections 11 and 12 in some detail, so as to leave Deputies satisfied that the proposals which they embody are, in all the circumstances, fair and reasonable. Before leaving the subject, I should like to point out that these sections will not prevent an employer from reinstating a former employee, if he desires to do so, but will only remove the right of reinstatement. If a man is a good man at his work, his employer will probably take him back, provided his offence has not been of a definitely criminal nature. The sections will, therefore, in practice affect the undesirable character rather than the decent man, and it is with that object of course, that they are inserted. As I mentioned already, we could have gone much further, but there would have been greater danger of the fundamentally decent man finding himself, through some purely military offence, affected by the provisions of the sections.

As regards Section 13, it is the experience of the military authorities that the majority of persons arrested by them as suspected deserters admit that they are deserters and nothing is gained, therefore, by bringing them before a district justice or peace commissioner as prescribed in Section 57 of the No. 2 Act of 1940. It is felt that in the relatively few cases where arrested persons deny that they are deserters, they should have the right of being brought before a district justice or peace commissioner. This procedure will ensure against miscarriage of justice and will, in addition, obviate the possibility of subsequent actions for wrongful imprisonment.

Sections 1, 14 and 15 are self-explanatory.

I am not at all satisfied that the Minister should still keep those temporary Acts before the House. I should like to remind the Minister and the Government that when they were on these benches they made the case year after year that a permanent Act should be brought into being, but it appears that the leopard can change his spots. I suppose the big battalions on the Government Benches can carry this measure whether we like it or not, and all I can do on behalf of this Party here is to draw attention to some of the difficulties, and to the reasons why I think that the House, at this particular stage, should not give the Minister this Bill. He has given an explanation of some sections in regard to desertion and various other offences, and in making the case I am thoroughly aware of the fact that he was not giving information to the House but was speaking politically to some Fianna Fáil branches and executives throughout the country who had made representations to him about certain points of administration. I think that is hardly a fair way for the Minister for Defence of this State to deal with a Bill of this kind. I will leave that matter to his own judgment, but I would ask him to reconsider that point.

There are other matters in this Defence measure which require attention but which he has, either purposely or through lack of information, left out. The Defence Force of the country is organised to defend the country against all comers, and, of course, in the carrying out of those duties accidents are bound to occur and casualties are likely to arise. Within the last year or two, serious accidents have occurred on manoeuvres, during lectures, and on other essential duties that the Army must perform, but the State has ignored them and imposed hardship upon the dependents of the sufferers in those accidents. I refer in particular to the very sad event that occurred when a mine was being demonstrated, and due attention has not been paid to the needs or welfare of the dependents of the sufferers in that case. Again, members of the Local Defence Force, some of them untrained, have had accidents of various kinds.

I am aware of several cases in which, using blank ammunition, fingers have been lost and arms and legs have been damaged, but the Department of Defence calmly says: "Well, there is no regulation under which we can pay anything, but we will consider the matter and an ex gratia grant may be given.” Those people had to go to hospital and have medical attention, and their dependents were not provided for. I think that, in a Bill of this kind, at a time like this, some provision should be made to meet those various contingencies. Again, for the purpose of properly training the members of the Defence Forces, manoeuvres are essential. Accidents will, of course, occur during manoeuvres and property will be damaged. When I was in the Army, if we were proposing to go over certain fields, we sent word to the owners and gave them an opportunity to remove their live stock. If we failed to send out that notice and if an accident occurred, we would very soon get a lattytat from the Department of Defence to know why reasonable precautions had not been taken. When damage did occur, the Government of that day paid compensation immediately, as I think the Government of to-day should do. If damage be done, it should be paid for immediately manoeuvres are over. To my own knowledge, people have written to the Department of Defence in respect of these matters and they might as well be writing to the moon. That is not fair. The Minister for Defence must be aware of this. In introducing a measure like this, he should take steps to assure the people of the country that, where accidents occur, compensation will be paid. It is a matter for himself whether disciplinary action against members of the Defence Forces is taken or not.

I want to raise the question of compensation to dependents of soldiers who die through accident or other injury received on active service. I raised this question before on the adjournment in the case of Volunteer O'Grady. In that case, a court of inquiry was held after the coroner's inquest and the Minister stated that the court of inquiry found contrary to the finding of the coroner's inquest. That position is unknown to law. If the unfortunate widow and her family had money to spend, had been well advised and had been able to employ senior counsel to go to the inquest and to the inquiry, she and her children would have received a sum sufficient to maintain them for the rest of their lives, such as they are entitled to get. The Minister for Defence calmly and blandly informed the House that the court of inquiry found contrary to the coroner's inquest. He expects every man who is capable of doing so to serve the country at present. So do we all. As we are putting that obligation on them, the people of the country assume this obligation to them— that if anything happens to them, they will not leave their dependents in a state of starvation for the rest of their lives. Before we pass this Bill, I should like to know from the Minister if he has considered these points at all. I know he is aware of them because of the Volunteer O'Grady case. I should like to know if, even at this late stage, he does not consider himself in conscience bound to make a payment to the widow of that soldier and any other soldier who has died in similar circumstances. Similarly, if members of the Local Defence Force lose a limb in the course of active service, the Department will not, I hope, "shilly shally" for months and leave them to the dole or to the local authority or some charitable organisation. The Minister should state that this Government and this Parliament will see to it that every person who serves this country under arms at the present time will be looked after, if anything untoward occurs to him, so far as the Government and the people can do so. We should pledge our word that, if any fatalities occur, in these circumstances, in the forces, the dependents of those who suffer will not be neglected.

I know that Deputy MacEoin was simply making play with the fact that we have come here with a continuation Bill year after year. He knows as well as I do the necessity for coming here with this Bill. But I take this opportunity of informing him and the House—I think I did so on a former occasion—that the permanent measure to supplant these continuation Bills is ready for production at any moment. Rightly or wrongly, I believed that the present was a most inopportune time to bring in a permanent Bill. It would not be permanent, in fact, at the present time. The necessity for making these amendments from time to time proves that. If the Bill which has been ready since 1937 had been brought in and passed, we should now have to make these additions to it. It would very shortly become what the present Act is—a thing of shreds and patches. From that point of view, I think it is desirable that we should continue to bring in these temporary measures until the emergency passes.

There has been no change whatever in respect of compensation for damage brought about as the result of Army manoeuvres. I presume that is the matter to which Deputy MacEoin was referring. It may be that some exorbitant claims have not been granted; that is a possibility, but claims of a character which can be justified are dealt with in identically the same way now as they were in the Deputy's time.

What I was complaining of was that they were not investigated.

Every claim receives the same investigation as it ever did. There is no question whatever about that. The machinery is the same and the officials, in many respects, are the same. I am not quite clear about the case the Deputy was referring to—I think it was the O'Grady case—but all I can say is that the dependents of soldiers who die in the service of the State are compensated and they are dealt with through the medium of a pensions scheme. In the first instance, the wife and the children are entitled to pension rights, and in the case of dependents they are dealt with through a gratuity which is ex gratia, but there is no question of the widows and orphans of any soldiers who die in the actual service of the Army, not being properly compensated. They are, in fact, compensated.

Would the Minister repeat that?

I am saying that where a soldier dies in the service of the State, his wife is entitled to a pension and does, in fact, receive a pension.

What is meant by "in the service of the State"?

While he is actually on duty in the service of the State. There is a difference in the case of men being killed in motor accidents where they were not on duty or where they were, in fact, getting a free lift or going on a joy-ride. These people would find very great difficulty in proving a claim.

That is what I had in mind.

These are the types of cases that caused a certain amount of difficulty in the minds of Deputies from time to time, based on information which is not generally in accordance with the facts of the case. All these cases, including the Glen of Imaal case, are dealt with under that particular provision, and the situation is the same now as it was in the Deputy's time. If the Deputy wants to give greater compensation——

——than is given at the present time, I do not see how he is going to reconcile that with the other attitude that he does not want to create greater expenditure.

No. I only wanted them to get their rights.

As far as I am concerned, I shall do my utmost to see that they will get that, and I can assure the Deputy that I am as keen as he to secure their rights.

Surely the Minister does not forget the case of Volunteer O'Grady, in which the Minister convened a court of inquiry which found against the verdict of the coroner's inquest. Certain facts were established at the coroner's inquest and the coroner's jury brought in a verdict there, and yet the Minister refused anything to the widow and orphans because the court of inquiry he had set up brought in another set of facts.

I would have to see the facts of the case before I could discuss it with the Deputy, but I shall look it up.

Question put and agreed to.

I have no objection to giving all stages of the Bill now, if the Minister likes, but at the same time I think that the Minister should have helped us a little bit.

I should be glad to have all stages now, because it would save very valuable Parliamentary time.

Agreed to take the remaining stages now.

Bill passed through Committee and reported without amendments.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for final consideration."

Might I ask the Minister to consider the particular points I referred to and drop me a note about them some time?

Yes, I shall.

Question put and agreed to.
Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.
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