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Dáil Éireann debate -
Monday, 1 Jun 1942

Vol. 87 No. 6

Housing (Amendment) Bill, 1942—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill deals solely with housing grants which are payable to private persons and public utility societies and it does not refer at all to housing grants which are paid to public authorities. The Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act of 1932 made provision for grants to private persons and public utility societies for the building and reconstruction of dwelling-houses. The aggregate amount of the grants under the Principal Act was fixed originally at £700,000 and, to qualify for grants, houses were required to be erected or reconstructed before the 1st April, 1935. By further amending Acts, the limiting date was ultimately extended to the 1st April, 1942 in the case of houses erected or reconstructed in the rural areas while the provision for grants was increased to £3,500,000. The primary purpose of the present Bill is to extend the period for the erection or reconstruction of houses under the Bill to the 1st April, 1943. The House may be interested in the figures for the number of new houses completed or reconstructed by private persons and public utility societies under the 1932 Act as amended.

These, up to the 31st March last, numbered, for new houses in urban areas, 10,901; for new houses in rural areas, 21,796; for houses reconstructed in rural areas, 28,602, making a total of 61,299 houses which were built or reconstructed under the Act of 1932. Of the 21,796 houses thus built in rural areas, 9,446 houses were provided for farmers with a valuation up to and not exceeding £15; 2,062 for farmers with a valuation from £15 to £25, and 3,253 houses for agricultural labourers; 7,055 for persons outside these categories. I should like to say that these figures take no account of new houses built under the Gaeltacht Housing Acts or under the Land Commission. Of the 28,602 houses that were reconstructed, 26,298 houses were reconstructed by farmers with a valuation not exceeding £25, and 2,304 were reconstructed by agricultural labourers. Out of the £3,500,000 originally authorised for grants, there remained at the 31st March last a sum of £128,219 unallocated and this amount is likely to meet all applications for grants in the present year.

To come now to the specific provisions in the Bill: Section 2 of the measure will enable grants to be paid for new and reconstructed houses completed after the 31st March last and before the 1st April, 1943. Section 3 of the Bill provides for the appropriation of certain houses for the accommodation of persons whose homes have been injured by aerial bombing or by the landing or falling of any foreign aircraft or by mines. Last year, the House will recollect, it was necessary for the Corporation of Dublin to transfer persons from houses injured in the North Strand bombing and to use for the purpose of accommodating them new houses which had been built for the accommodation of the working classes. In the letting of such houses the corporation must comply with certain statutory provisions. Sub-section (3) of Section 3 of the Bill will waive these conditions should it again become necessary to provide emergency accommodation arising out of such disasters as I have described. Sub-section 4 (a) of the section provides for a like waiver in the case of houses built under the Labourers Act, subject, however, to the condition that a house let under the circumstances contemplated by the section shall not be capable of being purchased under the Labourers Act, 1936, by the tenant to whom it is let in this particular instance.

Section 4 of the Bill is intended to validate certain grants paid or allocated in respect of the erection or reconstruction of houses to persons carrying on the trade of small shopkeeper. The Labourers Act of 1919 extended the definition of the expression "agricultural labourer" so as to include any person not working for hire but working in a rural district at some trade or handicraft, without employing any persons except members of his own family. It was a condition that the trade should be associated with a handicraft and it did not therefore include that of shopkeeper. In administering the Act hitherto, the interpretation given to the word "trade" did include in some cases a small shopkeeper and accordingly was wider than a close examination of the law has been found to permit. The provisions of Section 4 will validate the payment of grants already made to small shopkeepers in these instances and will also permit of the payment of grants where allocations had been made or promised to small shopkeepers in the belief that they were covered by the present Act. In many instances they entered into commitments on the basis of these promises and undertakings, and the power which is now sought in the Bill is necessary to enable the Department to fulfil the undertakings which were then given.

Mr. Brennan

The extension of housing facilities as outlined by the Minister is welcome. It is quite possible that something more may have to be done by his Department with regard to facilitating people who have had grants allocated to them but who have great difficulty at the present time in getting the permission of his Department to carry on with substitute materials. I have had a few cases of that kind brought to my notice. It appeared that some misunderstandings had arisen between the people to whom grants had been made and the Department. People who could not get asbestos slates, for instance, or other materials of that kind, felt that they were being prevented from carrying on the work although they would have been able to get some substitute materials. Very good work has been done under the 1932 Act and subsequent Acts. It is possible that the sum of £128,000 indicated by the Minister may be sufficient to cover all the work that can be done having regard to the very limited supply of materials at the present time.

With regard to Section 3, it seems pretty hard to interpret or to know what exactly is meant by sub-section (2) of that section. Of course that would be a matter really for the Committee Stage but reading the Neutrality (War Damage to Property) Act, in connection with this Bill, one is forced to the conclusion that if, for instance, a person's dwelling happened to be damaged by some of our own aircraft falling on it, even if they were trying to protect our own country, the person whose property had suffered, and who in consequence was deprived of a home, would not be allowed to be transferred to the house of a local authority because the accident or the injury was not caused by foreign aircraft.

I do not know whether the provisions of this Bill were considered in connection with the Neutrality (War Damage to Property) Act or whether the Government's attention was called to this aspect of the matter but that does appear to me to be the situation, that although a person might lose his house, he could not, because the injury was not caused by some foreign aircraft or through some other foreign agency, get the accommodation needed to replace his old home. The question may have been settled earlier but it does not appear to me that the section covers people who suffer injury in that particular way. I can also foresee difficulties arising under Section 3, particularly sub-section (2), in cases where houses built for labourers or for certain artisans would be appropriated in this way for the purpose of accommodating people who lost their homes. I think the Minister will be forced to provide some kind of special letting for that purpose. If not, the local authority later on may find itself in the position that it cannot get rid of these people as tenants and that there is no machinery to restore to the local authority property which was originally built for other people.

I do not know whether the Minister can justify Section 4 of the Bill with regard to the carrying on of shops. I know, of course, there has been all over the country evasion of the provisions of the previous Bill under which a shop was not supposed to be carried on in connection with these houses. It happened that in many cases a shop was carried on; there was no great crime committed and possibly it was a great convenience to the people of the locality when it was carried on in some small way but I wonder whether it will be possible under this new provision to permit a man who is a shopkeeper to have his private residence in a labourer's cottage, to live there and to have his shop somewhere else? Where you open the door at all you may make it very difficult for local authorities to make selections; in fact you may open the door so far that people will be admitted, whom it was never intended should be admitted, to labourers' cottages.

This Bill has been heralded several times. The provision for taking over houses for the accommodation of persons who have to leave homes which have been damaged is a new one. The Bill will probably confer a limited amount of benefit, where materials are available, on farmers and other people, because they will be able to get grants to renovate buildings. That is very satisfactory as far as the rural parts are concerned, but, speaking as a Dublin Deputy, I think the Bill has no interest for Dublin City or County. The subsidy that was given in Dublin for building was slowly withdrawn. A builder told the Minister's predecessor that he would prefer if some assistance were given people to purchase houses and, on the strength of that, the subsidy was withdrawn. Assistance was, however, never given for the purchase of houses. It is almost a joke to suggest that housing could proceed now to any great extent, because no timber has been available for over a year. For whatever limited supplies of timber are here there are three sections of the community competing: for firewood, with which people can warm themselves; for commercial purposes, and also for the manufacture of charcoal. I do not know if it would be proper on this section to call attention to the fact that while many people were allowed to cut down firewood, there were not the same facilities for dealing with commercial timber or for the manufacture of charcoal.

It seems as if the provision for the acquisition of small dwellings has been done away with in Dublin. Many people built too well and deprived themselves of the benefit of any grant that they might get from public funds. Now that houses are not being built this would seem to be a time for stocktaking, and to ask what the Government's plans are for future supplies. Many of these supplies were subject to customs duties. As duties have been withdrawn those concerned are anxious about the future. Will the duties be reimposed when supplies are available? Surely it is not inappropriate to ask the Minister what his plans in that respect are.

This is not a Bill to amend the Housing Acts. It merely extends the period during which grants may be given to private individuals or utility societies for houses, and particularly for houses to be finished on 1st April, 1943. I suggest that the general provision of building supplies will arise more appropriately on the Minister's Estimate which will be before the House at an early date.

I agree with your ruling, Sir, but suggest that it was not inappropriate to point out that these grants would necessitate supplies. I also want to ask the Minister what has become of the report of the housing inquiry which was held some years ago. There was a question on the Order Paper asking when that report would appear. It should be an interesting document, having regard to when the inquiry took place and the present position.

It will be put in the 1916 collection.

It does not arise on this Bill in reference to Dublin City.

The inquiry took place in Dublin.

It had nothing to do with private building or public utility societies.

It had to do with supplies and other things. For instance, manufacturers would provide supplies for both city and country, and my reference to it is to ask the Minister if he can say when the report will see the light of day. I do not know whether the Minister will shelter in the same way if I refer to the corporation by-laws.

That is quite outside the Bill.

As I suggested, the Minister may shelter behind that.

The Deputy must postpone the tournament to another day.

Very well. Perhaps the Minister will be driven from shelter on another occasion.

Section 4 gave Deputy Brennan some cause for worry. I think it will apply to reconstruction grants and not to the provision of dwellings. I understand that this matter arose out of a case that came before the Public Accounts Committee. I agree with Deputy Brennan that it is very doubtful whether a person carrying on a shop could be regarded as a person suitable for a grant under the section. When replying I hope the Minister will deal with that aspect. Another difficulty is that there does not appear to be any definition of "shop." I do not know whether such a definition appears in the Principal Act. If not, it opens up endless possibilities.

I should like if the provision contained in the Act of 1932 was continued, under which the Minister gave an account of the total number of houses built, the cost in urban and rural areas, and also the number reconstructed in the different counties. The Minister spoke of the power conferred on local authorities by Section 3 of providing temporary accommodation for people as a result of aerial bombing arising out of belligerent action. I quite sympathise with the purpose of that section, but I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that there are people in the country who, while not suffering from actual aerial bombardment, are at least suffering as the result of the acute shortage of housing accommodation. As the law stands, public bodies are precluded in many cases from giving these people the accommodation essential for themselves and their families. I refer to the order made by the Local Government Department which prevents local authorities from providing housing accommodation for, or even giving a vacant house to, married people who may have seven or eight in family, but who are not eligible for houses because they have taken rooms in houses owned by public authorities.

That is outside the scope of this measure.

This is a new Act and this is one of the points which arise on it.

It is an amending Bill of narrow scope.

There are certain new sections in this Bill which were not included in previous Housing Acts. The matter I refer to is one which, I think, might command the attention of the Minister. It is one which has very often come before the Dundalk Urban Council.

The Deputy will have an opportunity to raise these matters on the Estimate.

The Minister might consider the point before the Estimate comes along, and allow these authorities a little discretion in the matter of providing accommodation for these people. It is impossible for these people to get houses at present. With regard to the grant of £40, the Minister is aware that, owing to the high cost of building materials at present, it is impossible to carry out the same amount of work now for £40 as was carried out a few years ago for that sum. I quite appreciate the difficulty of increasing the grant. I am one of those who hold the opinion that it is virtually impossible to proceed with the building of houses, or even with the reconstruction of houses, on any large scale, and it is doubtful whether it would be prudent, even if the Department were anxious to give the money, to proceed, in view of the shortage of the right type of material. For that reason, I do not propose to ask the Minister to increase this grant, because it might do more harm than good to proceed, in view of the present shortage. These matters are important, and I know that they have been a source of worry and uneasiness to members of public boards who are anxious and ready to do what they can to meet the problem to which I have referred, but, as they can be raised on the Estimate, I shall avail of the opportunity to raise them when the Minister's Estimate comes along.

Deputy Coburn has drawn attention to an aspect of the problem to which Deputy Brennan referred when he described for us the difficulties which are impeding the building or reconstruction of houses by private individuals in rural areas at present and wondered whether we could not do something by way of providing substitute materials to encourage the construction of houses by such persons. We have given a great deal of attention to this question of substitute materials for the construction of dwelling houses, and I must say that I have not yet seen any plan for a house of such materials which would, in my view, provide an attractive house. Accordingly the degree to which we can go in encouraging people to utilise substitute materials in building houses is, I think, rather limited. If we do give a grant at present and the materials are either unsatisfactory or unsightly, the house, instead of becoming an attractive home, will always remain an eyesore in the countryside and a source of annoyance to the man who occupies it. At the same time, if there are ingenious persons who can devise acceptable substitutes, we should be very glad to hear of them and to the degree to which they are acceptable, we shall be very anxious to encourage their use, but it is a very difficult problem and one to which, I, at any rate, have not yet seen a satisfactory solution.

I shall look into the point Deputy Brennan raised as to Section 3 in reference to the damage which may be done by our own aircraft. Perhaps we have overlooked it, but on the other hand, it may have been thought that the possibilities of such damage under present conditions are very slight and that it was not necessary to make any special provision for it. I think that one of our aircraft falling or landing inadvertently is not likely to occasion anything like the damage which would be created, say, by the dropping of a bomb. However, I shall look into the matter. I shall also consider the point to which Deputy Brennan drew my attention in relation to the possible need for special agreements of tenancy in connection with these houses, but I think it would be possible to safeguard ourselves in that connection by the regulations which the local authority will make in letting the houses.

Section 4 was referred to by Deputy Brennan and by Deputy Benson. I think that in both cases there was a slight misunderstanding of its effect. The purpose of it is not to open a door, but to honour commitments which were entered into before the matter came under the review of the Public Accounts Committee. The interpretation given to "a shop" was, I think, unduly wide. It was held Departmentally to be a trade or handicraft associated with a rural industry. The Public Accounts Committee drew attention to the action of the Department in this matter, and, as a result of their report, we have examined the legal position more closely and have come to the conclusion that, under the Labourers Act, 1919, a grant could not properly be made for the reconstruction of a shop or a shopkeeper's residence. Prior to that conclusion having been arrived at, grants had been made and undertakings to make grants had been entered into and the purpose of Section 4 is, firstly, to validate the grants already made and, secondly, to permit us in the limited number of cases in which promises of grants have been given, to honour these promises. When that has been done it will no longer be possible for any person to get a grant under the Labourers Act in respect of the reconstruction of a shop or the provision of a dwellinghouse for the person who happens to be a shopkeeper in a rural area.

I do not know whether it would be proper for me to deal with the points raised by Deputy Dockrell. As you, Sir, pointed out, this Bill confines itself solely to the provision of grants for private persons and public utility societies living or operating in rural areas. Most of Deputy Dockrell's remarks, I think, appertained to housing activities in urban areas. I am afraid I cannot deal with the question which he put to me as to how timber should be allocated to meet the various needs of the moment, such as for firewood, charcoal, and constructional purposes. Those are questions which, I think, should be addressed to the Minister for Supplies, as I have no control over the allocation of timber. With regard to questions he raised as to the report of the commission which was set up to inquire into housing conditions and housing activities in Dublin City, I should like to say that that commission was appointed early in 1938. It sat during 1938 and 1939. A considerable number of sittings were held, and a great deal of very complicated and highly technical evidence was submitted. The hearings had not finished when the war broke out, I think. Since the war broke out most of the members of the commission have been very heavily involved in connection with the emergency provisions which have had to be made to deal with the conditions created by the war situation, and, accordingly, the amount of time which they could give to an examination of the evidence submitted and to preparing a report has been considerably restricted.

Has the report been submitted yet?

No, not yet. Apart from that, however, I should like to point out that the inquiry was an investigation into conditions which prevailed prior to the outbreak of war. Since then a considerable number of changes have taken place, and I have no doubt that when the report is submitted and made available to the public, one of the things we shall have to consider is whether there will not have to be a radical revolution in regard to this matter of housing in the city.

A new inquiry.

Now, the Deputy, if he likes, can be vexatious and frivolous in regard to this matter, but at least, if he had been considering it seriously, he would have seen that the development of air power and the range and capacity of the new weapons of aerial offence do present all those who live in towns, and who are responsible for the housing of the people, with a considerable number of difficult problems.

Why, then, does the Minister not suggest that there should be a new inquiry?

If the Deputy made the suggestion with a desire to be helpful, and not with a desire merely to sneer, then I should say that he would be justified in saying that one of the things that would have to be very closely investigated, as soon as the conditions under which Europe and, particularly, this country, will have to live after this war have been clarified, would be this matter of housing—that there would be need for a very close investigation into the housing policy of this and all other Governments.

I might remind the Minister that Deputy Dockrell was prevented from discussing the matter of housing supplies.

The Minister will have an opportunity of discussing it on the Estimate.

I was only addressing myself to the fact that I believe that the findings of the Housing Commission, which held its sittings prior to the outbreak of this war, are not likely to yield much material for our future—at least in regard to the new problems which will have to be faced now and after the war.

When did the Minister come to that conclusion?

Mr. Brennan

I think there is a misunderstanding with regard to Section 4.

Does the Deputy rise to ask a question?

Mr. Brennan

Yes. In paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) and paragraph (b) of sub-section (2), of this section, there is reference to the Labourers Act, 1919. That was previous to reconstruction altogether. The Minister says that the section deals with reconstructed houses and, if so, surely there is something wrong there?

Yes. There is a misprint there, both in paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) and paragraph (b) of sub-section (2). There is an omission there, but it will be quite clear that paragraph (b), in both cases, depended on paragraph (a), where reference is made to paragraphs (d), (g) and (h) of sub-section (1) of Section 5 of the Principal Act.

Mr. Brennan

But the Act of 1919 can have no relation to reconstruction.

Yes, it has, because Section 5 relates to the Act of 1919.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 17th June.
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