The Minister is charged with a very grave responsibility during this emergency and I do not want to minimise in any way the various difficulties that are bound to crop up in tackling a problem of such magnitude—the problem of producing to our maximum capacity food for man and beast. I did not happen to be present during the debate on the last occasion, but I read with interest what was said by the Minister and by the mover and seconder of the motion. Reference was made to the lack of fertilisers, and I am in agreement with what has been said by those who contributed to the debate, that the biggest handicap we have to face, particularly in the tillage districts, is the lack of artificial fertilisers. The Minister suggested that, although the price of raw phosphates was going up very considerably, they were contemplating bringing in a couple of boat loads of phosphates. He went on to say that he was not aware that potash was available anywhere. I do not think that our immediate problem is either phosphates or potash. Our big problem is nitrogenous manure. I urge the Minister that, if shipping space be made available for the importation of any artificial manure, that space should be utilised for the importation of nitrogenous manure— preferably, sulphate of ammonia.
I am aware that the British have imported substantial quantities of phosphate from America. I do not know how the price is worked out, but I think that it is subsidised. I am also aware that sulphate of ammonia is the only artificial which is not rationed in England, which suggests that ample supplies are being produced by Imperial Chemicals. I have argued before that every effort should be made to secure a quota of whatever production is available there. It appears to me that it might be possible to get a quota of sulphate of ammonia from Imperial Chemicals. If that cannot be obtained, I suggest that whatever space is available for the shipment of artificial manures from America ought to be utilised to bring in nitrogenous manure or a concentrated manure such as Imperial Chemicals produce. I agree with the Minister that the transport costs in connection with the importation of all manures are bound to be very high. However, the Minister must agree that if a concentrated manure can be purchased the relative cost of transport will be lower, because a more valuable product will be brought in. For that reason, it might be better to utilise shipping space to bring in a complete manure rather than use it for the importation of raw phosphate rock. I should be far more keenly interested if the Minister were to do something to secure a supply of nitrogenous manure. I agree with Deputy Belton that if we do not pay much closer attention, particularly in the tillage districts, to the preservation and restoration of fertility than we are paying at present, there will be a progressive reduction in the returns from crops.
The question of winter feeding was discussed. Comparing the British effort with our effort, what strikes me is the anxiety of the British to encourage their farmers to feed to their full capacity all the cattle they can. The British Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Hudson, has been going around saying that there are plenty of cattle in Éire, advising the farmers to stock up, that they had a huge fodder crop and a good root crop, and that they should keep the cattle in the yards to produce what the British farmer calls "muck". He told them that they could not continue producing grain without producing "muck". Here, our Minister seems not to be worrying at all about fertility. Our problem regarding the preservation of fertility is greater than that of the British because we are handicapped by the fact that we have no artificial manures worth speaking of. Yet, the British Minister for Agriculture and his officials are availing of every opportunity to encourage British farmers to produce all the farmyard manure they can and to convert all their available straw into farmyard manure to go back into the land.
The price arrangement is operating against the possibility of our farmers availing to the full of the fodder crops that might be used up and converted into farmyard manure. The Minister is aware that the discrepancy in the price of Irish fat cattle for immediate slaughter in England and the price of Irish fat cattle for slaughter after two months' stay in England is around 13/- or 14/- a cwt. The price of store cattle has been very attractive for the past few months. Keen prices were paid and men were encouraged to sell their stock. The price of store cattle to-day, against Lord Woolton's price for beef, gives no encouragement to farmers in this country to attempt winter feeding on a large scale.
For that reason I ask the Minister now to make representations again to the British Ministry of Food with regard to the price of Irish beef. I think some discussion took place some short time ago and, from the information I got, I understand that representatives of the British Ministry of Food suggested that no adjustment could be made until they had stocked up with stores and that when that stocking up was completed there was the possibility of an adjustment. I do not know whether that was correct or not, but I got it from a fairly good source. I am sure the Minister knows all about it. I suggest to the Minister that an early contact should be made with the British Ministry of Food on this important matter, and whatever price is to be paid for Irish fat stock ought to be announced immediately before it is too late, and it will be too late in another month.
Now, in conjunction with the feeding of cattle as a source for the production of farmyard manure, there is also the question of using pigs, so as to produce rich farmyard manure to preserve the fertility of the land. Of course, another and more vital consideration is the production of pigs for the bacon requirements of the country. There is no use in the Minister going around the country and trying to convince farmers that the present price is economic in view of the cost of raw material; that with potatoes at £5 10s. per ton, a ton of potatoes can be converted into a cwt. of bacon. That may be so, but there is another and very important consideration from the farmer's point of view with regard to the food that is available for animal use and that is, that the price of cattle at the present time is more attractive to the farmer for the utilisation of that food. The farmer who weighs the position must make a decision whether it pays him better to feed cattle than pigs, and I am satisfied that quite a lot of grain, and even potatoes, which would be fed to pigs in the ordinary way were fed to cattle.
I myself gave potatoes for the first time to cattle rather than to pigs. The price of cattle justifies that. Instead of trying to convince people that pigs can be produced economically at the present price, the Minister should make up his mind that if he wants pigs produced he will have to relate the price of pigs to the price of cattle. If the farmer is getting more for his cattle it will pay him to feed cattle rather than pigs and he will continue to do that until the price of pigs makes it attractive for him to utilise the food in that way. That is the problem which the Minister has to visualise, and he might as well make up his mind to that situation.
The Minister stated that so far as the service returns of premium bulls to the Department were concerned there appeared to be an improvement and that we were likely to have an increase in pigs in the near future. I am very much inclined to doubt that the figures are genuine. I am not doubting the Minister's statement that these figures were returned to the Department as showing an improvement; but whether the improvement is actually there or not is another matter. The Minister should realise when he comes to examine the figures that every man with a premium bull must have 30 services in order to get his premium of £10 or £11. If he has only 20 he will lose that premium, and the chances are that he will doctor the other ten. That is the position. The figures that the Minister is relying on, I think, are not so very reliable as he appears to think. One mistake the Minister is making is that he is ignoring the fact that it is more attractive to the farmer to convert food into beef or to feed it to store cattle than to give it to pigs. If he continues to ignore that situation this country will have to go without pigs.
On the question of what might have been done and whether the Minister and his Department failed in connection with food production, the Minister stated that he was sorry Deputy Belton did not go further and tell him where they had failed and what could have been done and should have been done that was not done. I propose to tell him something about that. The Minister has probably observed that in the midlands at present there is a considerable amount of grain in the fields, and a considerable amount of grain which was cut in October. That is an unnatural harvest. The reason why that corn ripened so very late in the year was because the grain was put in late, and the reason why it was put in late was because no provision was made for providing equipment in non-tillage districts, in vast grass districts where they have no equipment whatever. The Minister felt that his duty and responsibility ended by merely making a compulsory Order and sending out a horde of inspectors to compel people to cultivate a certain percentage of their land irrespective of whether they had the means to do it or not.
Time and again during the last two or three years his Department has failed to get results in these non-tillage districts from lack of organisation. The British were up against that problem in grass districts and they organised equipment, so that an inspector when visiting a farmer who complained that he could not hire equipment was in a position to say: "I will send you a tractor and a plough next Monday morning." I suggest that there could have been an organisation like that here and that it should have been undertaken.
During the last war I remember the Department of Agriculture here organised from the tillage districts of South Kildare and Carlow a number of young fellows with horse equipment, which was the only equipment available at that time as there were no tractors then, and sent 25 or 30 pairs of horses and ploughs to County Meath to plough the land there. That is the type of organisation which I suggest. That must be done if the work of getting in crops in time in non-tillage districts, where you have a big reserve of fertility, is to be carried out. At this stage we must rely on that reserve of fertility in order to get our requirements of grain. Because the crop has not been put in in time, because it has been neglected and no effort has been made to give any help to an individual who cannot provide equipment, who cannot buy it at any price, and because there is not sufficient equipment available in these counties to go round, ripening is too late. The result is that some of the crops are not cut yet in County Meath, and quite a lot of grain is in stooks.