The dressmakers will be affected by the scarcity of supply. Now Deputies can say to me if they like that in their opinion the whole supply of linings and interlinings should be distributed to the retail traders for sale to home dressmakers; that we should shut down all the clothing factories and disemploy all the people engaged in them. I do not think that would be a good policy. I think if we are considering the important question of making the best use of the limited supplies available to us, there clearly must be distribution as between manufacturers and retailers in somewhat the proportions I have mentioned, nor do I think there is any force whatever in Deputy Mulcahy's contention that this arrangement will involve an increase in prices. On the contrary, it is designed to secure that unnecessary inflation of prices by speculation in those textile goods will be eliminated. In that connection, Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney asked me how it was that traders who had three years' stock of goods last year are now selling those goods at inflated prices. The answer is that they had not three years' stock of goods last year, and they knew it themselves at the time. The Deputies who spoke here on their behalf at the time also knew it. If there was any doubt about the accuracy of their contentions at the time, those contentions have been amply disproved since.
Deputy Walsh raised a question concerning saddlers' ticken, and, as there appears to be some confusion concerning the arrangements for the supply of saddlers' ticken, it is just as well to clear it up. It is not necessary for saddlers to use their personal clothing coupons for the purpose of purchasing ticken. The arrangements made by the Department are designed to secure that saddlers' ticken will be available only to saddlers. A person who requires ticken for the purpose of saddlery production or other approved use should apply to the Department of Supplies for what is described as a coupon equivalent licence. That coupon equivalent licence can be presented by him to any trader, who will be able to supply him with saddlers' ticken against the licence. At the present time, saddlers' ticken can also be supplied on ordinary clothing coupons, but, under an Order recently made and coming into operation on 2nd May, saddlers' ticken can only be supplied against those coupon equivalent licences, and not on ordinary clothing coupons.
In relation to the matter I have just been discussing, I should say that the retail drapery trade are securing a fair share of the textile goods produced by cotton manufacturers, such as calico sheeting, binder canvas and towels. Those goods will, for the time being at least, be delivered to the retail trade by manufacturers, in exchange for clothing coupons of the ordinary kind. It may be necessary later to extend the Buying Permit system to their distribution, but that is not being done now. Deputy Mulcahy queried the necessity for imposing a surcharge upon clothing coupons held by traders. He seemed to feel that that was in some way unfair to traders. It is not merely a fact that our clothing rationing system has been unduly liberal, having regard to the available supplies, but it is perhaps more pertinent to this discussion that the supply is diminishing. With a diminishing supply of goods proceeding from manufacturers to wholesalers and from wholesalers to retailers, it is evident that there is an accumulation of coupons at each distribution point.
There are coupons in the hands of traders, whether wholesalers or retailers, which they cannot translate into fresh stocks. The accumulation of coupons in the hands of those traders naturally removes from them the incentive to take coupons from their customers. They cannot fully utilise the coupons they have, and consequently there is no particular reason why they should require persons who buy goods from them to surrender more coupons. In order to take up that accumulation of surplus coupons on the hands of traders, a surcharge has been imposed upon them. The situation in future will be that, for any article for which, say, 20 coupons must be surrendered by the consumer now, the trader seeking to replace that article will have to surrender 30 coupons, and on the wholesaler will again have to be imposed a 50 per cent. surcharge. In that way there will be action taken to accumulate those surplus coupons and take them out of circulation. It may be that individual traders are going to be hit by that, and the Department will deal with bona fide cases, but, in so far as a trader's scarcity of coupons may be due to the fact that he has been selling, without coupons, goods controlled by the rationing Order, he cannot expect to get consideration or facilities from the Department of Supplies. If at any time while clothes rationing remains in operation the present tendency should be reversed, and the supply of goods down the chain should tend to increase, then the opposite system will have to be adopted, assuming that in such circumstances clothes rationing will be retained in operation at all, but, so long as there is a diminishing flow of goods, it is necessary to have some such surcharge in operation.
Deputy Bartley requested information concerning transport arrangements which are now being brought into operation in certain western areas —parts of Galway and Mayo. The primary purpose of those transport changes is to secure the establishment in those areas of a transport organisation which will operate with a minimum of petrol and, at the same time give adequate transport facilities to the people living in those areas. Saving of petrol is an important consideration—the arrangements which are now in force in Galway and Mayo are in fact saving petrol to the extent of about 2,500 gallons per month—but it is not the only consideration. In addition to the saving of petrol we are aiming to secure that there will be in existence in those areas an efficient transport service which will meet the essential requirements of the public, with the minimum consumption of petrol. We are facing a period in which our petrol supplies will be sharply curtailed, and, when further reductions in allocation become necessary, they will have to be imposed upon private owners of transport vehicles. So long as there are any supplies available to us, they will be retained for the public services, and we are aiming to secure that in those districts the public services, will be reorganised on such a basis as will enable them to continue meeting the essential transport needs of the country for as long as possible.
The Deputy asked why we picked on the non-railway areas for the introduction of that reorganisation. It is precisely in the non-railway areas, where the transport needs can be met only by road services, that the need is likely to be greatest, when it is necessary to have in operation arrangements which will permit of some services being provided for all districts, no matter how our fuel supplies may contract. I can understand that, in those areas, the traders affected—and perhaps even, to some extent, the members of the public—have a certain natural resentment that they should be chosen for treatment first. It would be desirable, if it were practicable, to impose this reorganisation throughout the whole country simultaneously, but the magnitude of the task and the staff available to me did not permit of that. Consequently it has to be effected, area by area, and we deliberately chose non-railway areas because it was in those districts that it was most necessary to make arrangements which would ensure that there would be no wastage in the carrying on of transport facilities and that there would be created machinery which would enable the responsibility of the State to secure the distribution of any essential supplies, to be discharged.
The total number of vehicles in Galway and South Mayo areas which have recently been subjected to Department control is 277. Of that 277,106 have been discontinued. It is, of course, open to the owners of those vehicles to equip them with gas-producer plants and thus continue on the road. These have been discontinued only in the sense that petrol allocations will not be available for them in future. The vehicles which were discontinued were mainly merchants' lorries—lorries owned by merchants using them primarily for the transportation of their own goods. There was very considerable overlapping and wastage in operation. In some cases, the firms concerned had taxed more than one lorry—although only one was in use—for the purpose of getting additional petrol supplies. In the majority of cases, the change will prove beneficial for the traders concerned. There has been no interference with the licensed hauliers, or hauliers who are entitled to carry on that business of carrying goods in the exempt areas around Galway and Westport. The inspectors who visited the areas made personal contact with the great majority of lorry owners concerned and inspected a large number of vehicles. The critical nature of the petrol situation was explained to them as also was the urgent necessity to expand the public services so that the public need could be met, if possible, in all eventualities. Every individual problem was fully considered and the inspectors reported to me that they found, amongst the people concerned, a very ready appreciation of the difficulties of the situation and of the motives of the Department in effecting the reorganisation.
As I am on the question of transport, I might refer to some other points raised by Deputies in relation to gas-producer plants. It was suggested that special efforts should be made to collect scrap metal for the manufacture of these plants. As far as my information goes, there is no shortage of material for the number of plants likely to be made by the manufacturers of them, for a year or more to come. The total production capacity of those manufacturers is, of course, limited, but it is hoped to get them working to full capacity; and on that basis the available supply of materials, although undoubtedly limited, will keep them going for a year ahead.
It was suggested by Deputy Byrne that the Dublin omnibuses should also be fitted with gas-producer plants. The Dublin omnibuses, as also the omnibuses of the Great Northern Railway, operate not on petrol but on Diesel oil, and experience has shown so far that gas-producer plants cannot be used with those engines. Much the same applies to the long-distance buses operated by the Great Southern Railways. Experiments in the use of gas-producer plants on these buses have been made but, generally speaking, it seems unlikely that they will be very successful. It is, however, an established fact that the operation of these plants on commercial goods vehicles is reasonably satisfactory, and that is why the arrangements made by the Department are definitely designed to encourage the equipment of commercial vehicles with such plants.
Deputy Bartley urged that the Great Southern Railway should be more active in manufacturing gas-producer plants. I understand from the company that they are actually producing these plants and fitting them to their commercial vehicles at the rate of ten per week.
Deputy Belton referred to some one who was prosecuted for bringing goods by road. I do not know the case to which he referred, unless it was the case where he was prosecuted by the Revenue Commissioners, not for bringing goods by road but for using a tractor for the haulage of goods, on which the wrong tax was paid.
Reference has been made here to some problems which arise in connection with turf. I do not propose, at the moment, to deal with the turf subsidy which will be dealt with on the Supplementary Estimate; but there are some points which I am anxious to have cleared up, so that the misunderstanding of the Deputies concerned may be removed. Deputy Cosgrave, in the course of his rather disgraceful speech, referred to the whole turf programme as a ghastly failure. I do not know what Deputy Cosgrave would regard as success in the circumstances. Under enormous difficulties, and at very short notice, a programme for the production of turf for domestic consumption upon a colossal scale had to be undertaken. It was not merely a matter of producing a few thousand tons or a few tens of thousands of tons, but of producing hundreds of thousands of tons. The organisation had to be created at short notice, it had to be produced without the equipment which would normally be utilised in a project of that kind, and it had to be transported over long distances by a transport organisation that never had to face such a task before. We have been able to maintain a reasonable ration of turf throughout the non-turf area since coal for domestic purposes ceased to be available to us. Not merely that, but we have built up in those areas a reserve supply of turf capable of meeting the minimum needs for a year ahead, even if all transport should stop to-morrow. That is not my idea of failure. I think that the people who directed and carried out that vast enterprise deserve the thanks of this Dáil and of the country, rather than the cheap sneers of a discredited politician.
Deputy Byrne referred to the question of the supply of turf to bellmen from the dumps in Dublin. He implied on this occasion, as he did on other occasions, that there is some preferential treatment to firms whom he described as members of a monopoly. That is all nonsense. I do not suppose that Deputy Byrne will refrain from repeating those statements, merely on that account, but I want the House and everyone else to know that it is utter nonsense. I do not even know what he means. There is no monopoly given to anyone in the matter of turf supplies. Merchants and bellmen are treated alike, and all get sufficient turf to supply the prescribed ration to their registered customers. In fact, at present and since turf has been supplied from the dumps under the control of Fuel Importers, Limited, bellmen get a much bigger percentage of the domestic fuel trade of Dublin than they ever had when coal was available.
During the past winter bellmen took an average of 2,600 tons per week out of a total consumption of 6,200 tons in the city. Deputy Byrne suggested that the merchants should have been sent to the Phonix Park dump while the bellmen were left to draw from the North Wall. There were, as the House is well aware, no facilities in the Phoenix Park for the disposal of turf until weighbridges were installed. For some time even before the weighbridges were fully in operation, some merchants were going for turf to the Park and used scoops for weighing purposes. As soon as the weighbridges were working, the merchants were transferred to the Phoenix Park while the bellmen were still drawing supplies from the North Wall. It was only when the stocks at the North Wall were completely exhausted that the bellmen had to go to the only other source of supply available, the Phoenix Park.
We have had repeated here the old canard that people were advised by me some time ago to board stocks and that, as a result of their hoarding stocks on that advice, there is a scarcity of these goods now. Is it necessary to repeat the circumstances under which I gave certain advice to the public in June and July of 1940? In that year, we were facing the immediate prospect of invasion. We contemplated that, if invasion occurred, there might be areas in the country which would be separated from the sources of supply of essential goods for periods at a time and we endeavoured to get a distribution of available stocks throughout the country, so that the dangers of that situation would be minimised, by encouraging traders and wholesalers to draw more than their normal quantities from their primary suppliers. That advice was given with the full knowledge, and as I understood at the time, the full approval of every Party in the House. Certainly no Party in the Dáil at that time expressed disapproval of the advice. Furthermore, there was a situation, which lasted only a short period following the collapse of France, during which there was a number of ships in British ports loaded with coal intended for France. At that time we had coal rationing in operation here.
For a period of three or four weeks, it became possible to get exceptional quantities of coal by reason of the availability of these supplies in ships in British ports, provided we could take them in quickly. The only thing that prevented us was the congestion at our own ports. The merchants' yards were also filled up, and it was only by getting stocks cleared out of the merchants' yards into the stores of industrialists and householders, that we could avail of the fortuitous circumstance which made these large supplies of coal available to us. With that object in view, I urged industrialists, householders and others to draw all the supplies they could at once from the merchants' yards. To the extent that that was done, we got more coal than we otherwise would have got.
A similar situation existed in relation to wheat. Wheat granaries and wheat stores at the ports were filled to capacity. Our ability to bring in more wheat, while it could be done, depended upon space being made available in these stores by the milling of wheat into flour and the removal of the flour into the stores of merchants. In order to enable us to get in more wheat, merchants were encouraged to stock up larger quantities of flour than they normally would, and to the extent that that was done we got in more wheat. That advice was given to the people, the circumstances were explained to the people and not one Deputy in this House raised a word of protest against that advice being given. Now, three years later, that advice is misrepresented as advice given to wealthy people to hoard goods and the unfortunate poorer sections are being told that because that advice was given they are getting less of these goods than they would otherwise receive. Political Parties who resort to tactics of that kind must be bankrupt of anything in the nature of a constructive policy to put before the people.
We had a number of references to prices fixed for various commodities. The present margin allowed to traders is, in the case of Dublin and other towns, as high as ever they got. The butter merchants in Dublin never had a larger margin on their butter sales than they have now. It is true that in other parts of the country merchants normally sought to obtain a higher profit margin than Dublin traders. I know of no reason why they should. I am told by Deputy Hughes that it is ridiculous to expect merchants to sell butter at a profit of 1d. per lb. Apart from the fact that they are getting more than 1d. per lb., I might mention that during the last war, when the British Government controlled the price of butter at 3/6 per lb., the margin allowed to traders was 1d. per lb. At the present time the controlled price is only 2/- per lb. and the margin varies from 2½d. downwards, varying according to the conditions of sale.
I do not think that I could take Deputy Giles' suggestion seriously, that we should entirely confine price control activities to Dublin and not interfere with country traders. Everybody denounces the black market and any person who engages in it so long as he is a vague individual who cannot be identified, but the person who may be dealing in the black market may be the trader who is living next door to you, the individual whom you know to be in ordinary circumstances no law breaker. I want to repeat what I have often said here before, that there would be no black market if there were no people prepared to buy in the black market and pay black market prices. The worst offenders in this regard are those small country traders who, Deputy Giles tells us, should not be subject to price control at all.
Deputy Cosgrave made an extraordinary statement to the effect that the present scarcity of certain goods is due to the decline in imports last year resulting from a diminution of exports following the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. If any Deputy can make any sense out of that statement, I should like him to explain it to me. If there is any meaning in it, the implication is that because we could not export, or did not export, during the foot-and-mouth epidemic on the same scale as previously, then we could not pay for the goods we otherwise would have imported. That is the only interpretation that can be put on that statement. Deputy Cosgrave knows, or ought to know as the Leader of a Party, that we have at least £300,000,000 worth of foreign assets that we cannot translate into goods. We could pay for all the goods that we are likely to require for the next ten or fifteen years if we could utilise these assets. The difficulty is that owing to our inability to use our foreign assets to purchase imports we are accumulating enormous balances abroad which we cannot translate into imports and which if we could translate them into imports would be a great advantage to us.
Deputy Dillon repeated this year, as in previous years, the nonsense about restrictions maintained upon the imports of supplies which prevent us from getting stocks when they can be obtained. He referred particularly to agricultural machinery, denounced the fact that there was a quota on agricultural machinery and said that we had removed it when it was much too late. There never was a quota on agricultural machinery. One does not expect Deputy Dillon to be as accurate as other Deputies try to be but this nonsense that Deputy Dillon has uttered and which misled other Deputies into repeating his remarks, that supplies which could have been procured were not obtained by reason of the maintenance of unnecessary quotas and by reason of other restrictions, is just bunkum. There are certain goods in respect of which there is control of imports at the moment. These are goods in respect of which we have a definite allocation to us of a stated amount.
In relation to certain classes of textiles, cording for manufacture of fishing nets, to which Deputy Cogan referred, and certain other goods, we have received as a country a definite allocation. We know precisely the quantity of goods of these classes which will come in, and we endeavour to secure that these goods will come in in the form and to the firms we want to get them. If people succeed in bringing in these goods outside our control, it does not mean that the country is getting any more. It merely means that our control has been made less effective, and that goods have reached the hands of speculators who are going to confer no advantage on the community, but who aim at making profit for themselves. In so far as control of imports is maintained, it is maintained for the purpose of directing the flow of goods into the country into the channels in which they can be best utilised in the national interest.
Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney and Deputy Kennedy both asked what was the justification for allowing public houses to open until 10.30 p.m., when other establishments were being required to close earlier in the interests of economy of light and fuel. I could evade answering the question by saying that the Order for the closing of shops is made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce and that therefore, the question does not arise on this Vote. It may be that for the purpose of effecting greater economy in electric light and fuel of one kind or another, the closing hours of particular classes of establishments, such as public houses, may have to be further altered, but having regard to the controversy which has developed during the week between the owners of these houses and their assistants, I do not think I would be justified in using the Emergency Powers Act for that purpose at this stage. The Dáil deliberately decided to amend the law relating to the closing hours of public houses. That law is a permanent measure. It may have to be temporarily suspended in its operation by Emergency Powers Orders before the end of the war, but at the moment I am not prepared to make an Order of that kind affecting public houses in Dublin only.
Deputy Byrne referred to the difficulties of tenement dwellers in Dublin, owing to the shortage of paraffin oil and candles. So far as paraffin oil is concerned, people in Dublin who have no other forms of lighting get allocations upon the same basis as people everywhere else. In a sense, they are treated better than rural dwellers, because since the gas supply in the cities has been restricted, the paraffin oil ration has been granted to persons who have gas laid on and who, therefore, have gas for a certain period in the evening, if not at all hours. The real answer, of course, to the representations made by Deputy Byrne concerning Dublin and by other Deputies concerning rural areas is that there is not sufficient paraffin oil to go round. It is a very easy matter for Deputies to urge me to give more paraffin oil for domestic lighting in particular districts. They know they cannot get results by that means and they know as well as I do the total quantity of paraffin oil available to the country this year—I told them. They know the purposes for which it will be used—I told them. If they want to propose that more oil should be made available for domestic purposes, they must in all honesty suggest from whom it is to be taken in order to make it available for domestic users.
There is one matter concerning which it might be desirable to correct a false impression, that is, with regard to the quantity of copper sulphate which will be available this year. The allocation of copper sulphate is on a quarterly basis. The allocation for the current quarter will be 800 tons, but it is anticipated that a similar allocation will be available for subsequent quarters, so that the total quantity available to the country over the whole year will be substantially larger than 800 tons.
There is a further matter to which I might perhaps refer briefly, in order to avoid misunderstanding. Deputy Cogan and Deputy Hannigan referred to clerical assistants in the Department of Supplies being employed at the disgracefully low wage of 19/- per week. If these Deputies would do what is their duty as members of the Dáil, that is, take the ordinary elementary precaution of reading the documents circulated to them, they would know that that statement is completely without foundation. Deputy Cogan told me that he could not find out what was the bonus appropriate to a basic wage of 19/-. He had only to turn back to the beginning of the book from which he was quoting to find set out a table which would have given him all the information he required in the matter.
A temporary clerical assistant of 21 years of age in the Department of Supplies receives a total remuneration of £2 0s. 2d. per week, and, having regard to the prevailing rates of wages for female clerical officers in commercial employment, I do not think that wage can be unfavourably criticised. It is, of course, entirely nonsense to talk about these temporary clerical officers deciding traders' quotas or matters of outstanding importance, as Deputy Cogan alleged. Deputy Cogan does always expect to be taken seriously, but he makes these very foolish statements, and nevertheless, by some means or another, retains his position as deputy vice-president of the new Farmers' Party, of which Deputy Belton is not a member.
Deputies referred to a number of other matters of varying degrees of importance, but I do not propose to refer to them now. Deputies who asked for specific information can get that information, either by reference to published replies of Dáil queries, or by tabling Dáil queries in the future. Deputy Cosgrave said that there should be an issue of sugar for the manufacture of household jam, even if it involved a drain upon our reserves. I do not know where Deputy Cosgrave got the idea that we have reserves. The present domestic sugar ration is calculated upon the basis of utilising all the available supplies of sugar between now and the commencement of the next production season. I could not make sugar for the manufacture of household jam available, except by cutting the general domestic ration, and I feel certain that no Deputy would approve of that course.
If we get additional supplies of sugar, as a result of the importation of raw sugar from the West Indies, which I have told the House is proceeding, it may be possible to give a more liberal distribution for domestic purposes. I should like to be in a position to give a larger domestic ration of sugar, and to let the people who wanted to make household jam save the sugar for that purpose from their ordinary ration; but it cannot be done yet, nor can it be done for some months to come until there has been some reserve accumulated as a result of imports. By reason of the greater acreage under sugar beet this year, plus the anticipated imports during the year, it can be confidently stated that, subject to unforeseen contingencies not arising, a larger ration of sugar for domestic purposes will be available towards the end of the year.
Motion to refer back negatived.
Original Vote put and agreed to.