Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 9 Nov 1943

Vol. 91 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 61—Posts and Telegraphs.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Little)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £913,210 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1944, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Puist agus Telegrafa (45 and 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; Na hAchtanna Telegrafa, 1863 go 1928; Uimh. 14 de 1940 (Ailt 30 agus 31); Uimh. 14 de 1942 (Alt. 23); etc.), agus Seirbhísí áirithe eile atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin.

That a sum, not exceeding £913,210, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1944, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 and 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1928; No. 14 of 1940 (Secs. 30 and 31); No. 14 of 1942 (Sec. 23); etc.), and of certain other services administered by that Office.

The estimated Post Office expenditure for 1943/44 amounts to a total of £2,732,210, representing a net increase of £87,069 on the provision for 1942/43. The gross increase amounts to £134,613, of which £84,793 is due to emergency bonus payments. The balance, £49,820, is attributable mainly to extra staff provision necessitated by growth of work and substitution of officers on loan to other Departments and on military service; to provision for an extra week's pay (53 pay days in the current year); staff incremental increases: additional payments to contractors for conveyance of mails by road; higher payments to other administrations in respect of air mail correspondence for countries abroad; increased cost in respect of manufacture of stamps, losses by default, etc.; higher provision in respect of superannuation allowances, etc., etc. Offsetting the increases there are reductions amounting to £38,536, resulting principally from savings through retirements; reduced expenditure on purchases of stores and uniforms by reason of supply difficulties; greater relief from telephone capital: reduced travelling by engineering officers owing to restrictions caused by emergency conditions, etc. These reductions, combined with a higher credit (£9,008) in respect of Appropriations-in-Aid—mainly under sub-heads T (5) and T (12)—make the estimated net increase in expenditure £87,069.

The financial position of the three main Post Office services—Postal, Telegraph and Telephone—on a commercial basis showed a decided improvement at the end of the financial year, 1941-42 (the last year for which commercial accounts are available), as compared with that at the corresponding period of the preceding year. On the 31st March, 1941, the net deficit on the three services amounted to a total of £155,070, the postal services showing a deficit of £115,257, the telegraphs a deficit of £130,203, and the telephones a surplus of £90,390. On the 31st March, 1942, the situation had improved as follows:—

Postal Service—Revenue, £1,818,311; expenditure, £1,726,845; surplus, £91,466. Telegraph Service—Revenue, £227,194; expenditure, £342,767; deficit, £115,573. Telephone Service— Revenue, £753,429; expenditure, £573,264; surplus, £180,165.

That is to say, the deficit of £155,070 at the end of the financial year 1941, had, at the end of the following year, been converted into a surplus of £156,058. During 1941-42 revenue on a commercial account basis improved by £386,000. Of this amount £243,000 approximately, was attributable to the increased postage rates introduced in June, 1941; £38,000 and £105,000 to the greater use of the telegraph and telephone services, respectively, as a result of emergency conditions. Expenditure during 1941-42 increased by £74,800, due to augmented staff costs; exceptional purchases of stores; additional cost of conveying mails; increased cost of maintenance of the telegraph and telephone systems, etc. The net result for the year was, as I have indicated, a favourable balance of £156,058.

For the last financial year—1942-43— true revenue, that is actual cash receipts, is estimated at £2,425,000, an increase of £110,000 on the actual revenue for the previous year. Telegraph and telephone receipts are up by approximately £48,000 and £123,000, respectively, while postal receipts show a drop of approximately £61,000. So far as can be judged at present revenue during 1943-44 is likely to reach the existing level, but the position in this respect will, of course, be influenced by the nature and extent of any further emergency developments affecting general business activities that may take place.

Mail services by rail are still on the restricted scale introduced in October, 1941, as a result of the coal situation, although the trains on the whole are now adhering more closely to scheduled running. The position of the road motor services has, however, altered as a consequence of the acute petrol shortage, which has necessitated large scale conversions to horse transport, with resultant disimprovement in deliveries and despatches in many areas. The matter is, of course, one which is not within the power of the Department to control, and the alternative services which have been arranged are the best that are reasonably practicable.

The external mail services remain generally unchanged. The use of air mails to Europe and America for both private and commercial correspondence is growing: the traffic despatched now amounts to approximately 600,000 items a year. The outgoing airgraph service introduced in March last is being extensively used.

The telegraph service continues to benefit from emergency traffic, the loss of £115,573 at the end of March, 1942, having fallen to about £73,000 at the corresponding period this year. Delivered messages during 1942 showed an enormous increase. As I have, however, said on previous occasions I can see no prospect of any permanent improvement in the financial condition of the telegraphs and, when emergency factors disappear, the normal tendency of the service to decline owing to the growing development of the telephones will, I fear, almost inevitably again manifest itself.

The expansion of the telephone service which I commented on last year continues and will doubtless continue while the emergency lasts. Every added limitation of ordinary public facilities—transport, fuel, supplies, etc. —seems, by reason, no doubt, of the upset to normal activities, to react immediately on the telephones. During 1942 local calls totalled 38,550,000, an increase of 1,673,000 on the previous year. Trunk calls reached 5,500,000, an increase of 534,000. The increase in the trunk traffic was mainly on internal calls, i.e., calls wholly within Eire. The continued growth of trunk traffic has naturally affected in some degree the standard of the service, particularly at peak hours. All possible measures are, however, taken to keep delay to a minimum, but the position is obviously one for which there is no complete remedy. The difficulties in regard to supplies of engineering construction stores render it quite impossible in present circumstances to provide sufficient additional circuits to cater fully for the increased traffic, even if this traffic were of a normal character instead of being, as it is, largely emergency and non-permanent.

With the object of improving the position as far as reasonably possible it has been decided, in the interests of telephone users generally, to impose a restriction of duration to six minutes on trunk calls during the busy traffic hours. In order, however, to minimise inconvenience, operators are given discretion, on request being made, to extend duration on very important calls, but this discretion must, of necessity, be sparingly exercised. The restriction is not imposed at all during normally slack traffic hours. I am satisfied that this restriction of duration, which has been in operation for some months past, so far from causing any general inconvenience tends to facilitate the general public.

The standard of the local service generally is good. In Dublin the increased traffic lias unfortunately caused some deterioration in the speed of answering from "0,""30" and "31." Everything practicable is done by generous staffing provision to ensure a uniformly satisfactory standard of service, but delay is at times unavoidable, especially at heavy traffic periods, owing to the inability of the equipment to carry the abnormal load. Additional equipment cannot be provided in Crown Alley Exchange, but such difficulties as exist will, it is hoped, disappear when the new exchange in Exchequer Street is opened early next year.

The standard of answering from telegrams ("39") is now, on the whole, very good. The total number of subscribers' circuits at the end of 1942 was 30,293, an increase of 1,189 on the previous year. The total number of telephones in use was 48,822, an increase of 1,507. The number of automatic telephones in the Dublin and Dun Laoghaire areas is 27,109, an increase of 937. There are now 842 exchanges and 1,503 call offices, including 152 street kiosks.

For some time past the shortage of engineering stores, to which I have already referred, has necessitated restrictions on the provision of new exchange lines, involving a considerable amount of construction work, particularly in rural areas, and on the provision of extension circuits, bells, etc. As a result of the continued worsening of the supply position, it recently became necessary to extend this restrictive policy and to limit the provision of additional subscribers' lines generally. In giving effect to what is an unavoidable decision, however, everything possible is being done to meet the requirements of essential services —doctors, hospitals, etc.—and of emergency services. In connection with the supply question generally, I may say that, although a considerable reserve of engineering stores—wire, cable, etc.—had been built up prior to the emergency, this reserve is now, mainly owing to the requirements of the emergency services, practically exhausted, and cannot be replaced. It is necessary, of course, to maintain a minimum reserve for further emergency needs, and this cannot be drawn upon for ordinary requirements.

Notwithstanding the adverse position in regard to renewals of supplies of engineering stores, I am glad to say that during the past year it was found possible to keep employment in engineering grades at the same level as during the previous year and every hope is entertained that during the coming year it will be practicable to find work for all existing regular full-time staff. This result has been achieved largely by using again materials that in normal times would have been scrapped, and by adopting methods which, while needing more labour for their execution than the normal standard methods, have enabled considerable economies to be effected in the use of new stores. Thus, by their resourcefulness in using scrap material, our engineering staff have succeeded in retaining in employment many men who would otherwise have been left unemployed and have thereby done a real national service. This was in very thorough pursuance of Government policy.

The heavy pressure experienced in the stores branch in 1940 and 1941, as a result of emergency conditions, continued during 1942 and there seems to-be little prospect of any appreciable easement so long as the emergency lasts. The difficulties of procuring supplies of articles which must be imported, or for which the raw materials must be imported, have been continuously increasing, according as the control by the British authorities on all forms of industry in Great Britain has become more rigid. There are now few, if any, industrial products which may be exported from Great Britain without licence and the problem of meeting the stores requirements of the public service here is, accordingly, becoming extremely acute in many respects.

The total value of contracts placed by the stores branch during 1942 amounted to £1,624,580, which represents a falling off of about 15 per cent. on the figures for the previous year, due to the difficulties of the supply position. In some instances, where quotations were received from firms in Great Britain, they contained so many qualifications and restrictions that contracts could not be placed. The question of obtaining from America supplies of goods unobtainable from Great Britain was considered but, owing to export restrictions in the United States, no useful results accrued.

Of the total contract expenditure, £1,309,460, or 80 per cent., was in respect of articles manufactured or assembled in Eire.

The stores branch, too, deserves very special commendation for the energy shown in finding Irish materials and workmanship in substitution for importations from outside the country. This is work to which the Government attaches considerable importance.

The destruction of the Post Office factory by fire on the morning of the 4th November, 1942, resulted in the cessation, pending replacement of plant and machinery, of the manufacture of special items of stores for the Department and of many articles required for defence services. The loss sustained was considerable, the main building having been completely burnt out, with its plant, equipment, stocks of materials and stores, testing apparatus, as well as a large number of telephone switchboards in process of manufacture.

The problem of re-establishing the factory was energetically taken in hand and it was decided, as a provisional measure, to utilise an adapted warehouse of concrete construction, located in the vicinity of the destroyed building. The stores ordinarily held in the warehouse have been removed to temporary premises elsewhere in the city. Special efforts to procure machines and machine tools in replacement of those destroyed have, notwithstanding the serious difficulties of the times, met with a considerable measure of success. A certain amount of reconditioning of damaged machines has also been found practicable.

Notwithstanding the practical cessation of the operations of the factory, it is a matter for satisfaction that only two of the male workers had to be discharged as a result of the fire. The others were retained on salvaging and reconditioning of plant, tools and stores, or on such repair work as did not require the use of machinery, or on work in other branches of the Department. In the case of the female workers it was, I regret, necessary to pay off 27 out of 35, but a large number of those discharged were merely temporary and would have had to go, in any event, on the completion of the particular job on which they were engaged. Eight have since been taken on again, making a total of 16 females now in employment.

I am unable to say when the main operations of the factory are likely to be resumed—hardly, in any event, earlier than April next. The difficulties in existing circumstances are obviously considerable. The matter is, however, receiving very special attention and nothing that is feasible will be left undone to hasten complete restoration.

The structural alterations necessary for the improvement of the district office at James's Street, Dublin, have been completed. Other building works of a major character, which would ordinarily be now in progress, cannot on account of shortage of materials, be proceeded with until emergency conditions have come to an end.

The position of the Savings Bank shows continued improvement. The number of depositors increased by 35,600 during 1942. The ordinary deposits for the year amounted to £5,037,600, and the withdrawals to £2,280,300, these figures being greater than the figures for the preceding year by £1,391,000 and £115,400, respectively. The net increase in the balance remaining invested at the close of 1942 was £2,757,300, exclusive of interest earned during the year, which amounted to approximately £380,800.

In addition to the ordinary deposits, a sum of £686,970 was deposited, by way of investment, in respect of moneys received by the Minister for Finance for the credit of Trustee Savings Banks under Section 31 of the Finance Act, 1940, bringing the total so invested since the 21st November, 1940, up to £1,311,620. Of this amount, £31,400 was withdrawn by the banks during the period, leaving the net amount invested at the end of 1942, £1,280,220. The interest credited to the banks in respect of the investments amounted to approximately £33,300.

In concluding this statement, I wish to express my appreciation of the efficiency with which the staffs of all grades performed their various duties during the year.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

I would like to ask the Minister a few questions. There is an item—"Purchase of Sites, £1,350"—for 1943-44 and 1942-43. Is this the hoary-headed St. Andrew Street site? If so, it has been on for a great many years. The next point is about the conveyance of mails. I see that the Minister is using the railway, the road, the air and the sea. That is as it should be, but I would like to know if he is envisaging the fact that, after the emergency period, extensive alterations probably will be necessary. Are there any long-term contracts being entered into for the conveyance of mails, or are they all short-term contracts that can be switched over to the most suitable means of transport? The Minister has told us that he has switched over, in a lot of cases, to horse-drawn vehicles. The Government are pressing ordinary private traders to use producer gas vehicles, and I do not know if the Minister has any rooted objection to that form of transport. Perhaps he will tell us why what is sauce for the goose should not be sauce for the gander?

I want to make a brief reference to the Post Office Savings Bank. I have always held that the Post Office ought to give as good service as is given in the ordinary banks and, although the Minister sees difficulties, I do not see why emergency sums cannot be made available, or why the Minister should not try to be as good as his competitors. That is always one of the things that enter into Government trading—they seem to think that they can trade only on the terms that they lay down. In spite of the increase that the Minister indicated in the deposits, I suggest that he would get a better sum of money deposited in the savings bank if he gave the service that the public would like to get from him.

The next thing to which I would like to refer is the telephone book. We all know there is a shortage of paper and the Post Office very properly tried to cut down the number of books. I do not know how long the printing, binding and distribution of the telephone book takes—perhaps the Minister will give us that information—but between the time the telephone book goes to press and is distributed there must be a substantial number of telephone subscribers enrolled. Would it be possible, as is done in other countries, to attach a fly-leaf setting out the subscribers—and their numbers—who have installed telephones in the period to which I have alluded? Would that be at all feasible?

Let me now draw the Minister's attention to post office windows. If you look at a post office window you will observe that it has a distinctive appearance in the sense that there is nothing in it. Apparently, the Post Office authorities have nothing to buy and nothing to sell. If the Minister were an ordinary trader and went round the post offices with the eye of a resourceful merchant who is trying to dispose of his wares, the first thing he would do would be to put those wares in his shop window. The Minister will probably tell me he has nothing to sell. I suggest he should get samples of the different orders and forms handed out or sold in the post office and display them in the window. I do not see why the appearance could not be given of a post office anxious to do business. Whatever forms there are should be displayed in the windows. People requiring money orders or postal orders could study the regulations relating to the purchase of those orders before they go into the office, just in the same way as people, before making a purchase in a trader's establishment, would inspect what he had in the shop window. I suggest the Minister could brighten up the post office by displaying his wares in that way and he would remove some of the congestion that often takes place inside the post office by enabling the public to make up their minds what forms they wanted without having to go to the trouble of asking the assistants. He would avoid much of the inconvenience caused by people finding that they had got the wrong forms.

Mr. Norton

The Minister has made reference to the very considerable development in the telephone service, and to the enormous increase in local and trunk calls. I should like to direct his attention to one very unsatisfactory aspect of the telephone service. I refer to the difficulty of getting calls to places such as Newbridge, Naas, the Curragh Camp, Kilcullen, or—to take another direction—Balbriggan. It is well known that in these areas, which are now military centres, the existing lines are choked. I do not want to go into the technical aspect, to tell the Minister what the remedy is—his advisers will give him all the necessary information in that regard—but, at least, he ought to take some of these places off the dial "O" position and put them on the ordinary trunk call basis. If he does that he will relieve the pressure on the dial "O" position, and in that way obviate the considerable delay which now occurs in connection with telephone calls to these areas. Recently I had occasion to make a telephone call to Kildare town. I waited for well over an hour, and still I was unable to get through. No purpose would be served by booking a call, because no person could guarantee putting the call through, the line was so clogged up. That is a most unsatisfactory position. I trust the Minister will investigate this matter. I have heard widespread complaints about the abnormal delay in getting telephone calls through to these places.

I should like to direct the Minister's attention to the state of affairs at the counters in the G.P.O. I do not know if the Minister goes there, but I may tell him the position is decidedly unsatisfactory. Any day one goes there one may see queues at the various counters. These people naturally become irritated when they are held up for such a long time. Anyone visiting the place can see it is hopelessly understaffed, that the staff is not sufficient for the volume of work transacted there. The Minister should seriously consider this matter with a view to providing additional staff at the various counters and thus give the public a better service. The present position is that a small staff endeavours to cope with a volume of work which is really beyond them, and the result is that many people get themselves involved in counter losses. Under the Post Office regulations they are liable for the repayment of portion of these counter losses. I suggest to the Minister that it would be much fairer, in order to help to avoid these counter losses, if he would provide a better service for the public by taking steps to increase the staff at the public counter, and thereby get over the difficulty to which I have adverted.

I notice in the Estimate that there is provision for a reduction of approximately £12,300 for uniform clothing in respect of the year 1943-44. I can quite understand certain difficulties arising out of the emergency, but I would like to call the Minister's attention to the very serious problem arising from the shortage of protective clothing, for postmen in all areas, and particularly in exposed areas, necessarily have to equip themselves with protective clothing over the winter period. Some of these articles of clothing were originally intended to last about two years, but even those responsible for the manufacture of waterproof clothing will tell you that it is a tight fit to get an article of protective clothing, of waterproof material, to last two years if it is worn regularly during inclement weather. Recently, the Post Office decided that these articles of protective clothing should last four years and not two years. They might as well have said 44 years as four years because it is quite impossible for these articles of clothing to last a period of wear of four years. Already, there are complaints from all parts of the country as regards the difficulty of procuring articles of protective clothing for the outdoor staff. I know, of course, that some of these difficulties may be unavoidable. I suggest, however, to the Minister that the issue is one that should be given immediate attention, and that some steps be taken through whatever medium is available to supplement the existing stocks, because unless the Minister can provide an adequate supply of protective clothing for use over the winter period, particularly for use in exposed areas, he is going to get a considerable volume of sickness on the part of the staff with a consequent impairment of the services.

Some of the postmen concerned in this matter are obliged to cycle distances of 26 miles in a day. If one contemplates postmen going out through some part of the County Clare, or the conditions to be experienced over a mountain road in the County of Waterford, and cycling a distance of 26 miles on a rainy day, he will get some picture of what these men have to do every day during their period of outdoor work over the whole winter. One can see that such men not only need protective clothing, but need to have it renewed at sufficient intervals to ensure that it will stand the inclemency of the weather to which they are exposed. Will the Minister give the House some assurance that, on this matter, the Post Office will be able to get back to the original periods of wear in respect of protective clothing? Otherwise, he is going to have to pay a very nice bill for sick leave, and, unfortunately, many of those who will be affected in that respect will not receive pay from the Post Office during their period of illness. I trust, therefore, that the Minister will make a very special effort to concentrate attention on this matter because of its importance for all the persons concerned.

In looking through the Estimate, and of the scales of pay, there is one anomaly that comes to my mind at once. From the point of view of pay of Post Office officials, Deputies are aware that post offices are classified as 1, 2 and 3. Dublin is a class 1 office. Recently Howth was incorporated in the City of Dublin, and is now for all purposes portion of the City of Dublin. When the incorporation took place the Department of Industry and Commerce immediately raised the rates of unemployment assistance benefit in Howth to the Dublin scale. The Department of Local Government arid Public Health raised the rates of widows' and orphans' pensions' benefit in Howth to the Dublin scale, but the Post Office continues to pay its staffs in Howth on the class 3 scale, although Howth is now as much a part of the City of Dublin as O'Connell Street is. I think that is a very unfair attitude for the Post Office to adopt. I do not think it can be justified, now that Howth, and some other places like it, have been incorporated in the Dublin area. If the Department of Local Government and the Department of Industry and Commerce have recognised the necessity for making a change by adjusting the scales for which they have responsibility, then I think the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs should make a similar change so far as the Post Office wage rates are concerned.

There is one other matter, and that is the position of quite a substantial number of officers—temporary postmen they are called—who are employed on full-time duties. Their position is that they have had their part-time duties expanded to full-time since 1939. In the ordinary course of events, they would have been appointed as unestablished postmen, but the Post Office, fearing that some terrific catastrophe was going to overtake us during the emergency, would not appoint those people in an unestablished capacity. If they were so appointed they would get an increment each year and sick pay when on sick leave. The Post Office keeps them on as temporary postmen, gives them no increment whatever and no pay during illness. The only purpose of that is to deprive those people of rights which, normally, would be conceded to them. We are now in the fifth year of the war, and it docs not look as if we are likely to be involved in the catastrophe that at one time was hazarded. I think, therefore, that the Post Office might reasonably assume that just as we have got through the last five years without any of those catastrophes overwhelming us, we are also likely to get through the remaining years of the war without any of those evils which were contemplated being visited on the Post Office. I would like if the Minister would examine the matter with a view to having those people graded as unestablished officers. If he does that he will be doing what should normally happen and, at the same time, will be recognising the justice of the claim which those men have.

Mr. D. Morrissey

There are a few matters in connection with this service to which I desire to draw attention. In connection with this Estimate, one notices that it very rarely changes from year to year. It does not show any sign of progress or advance. The Minister told us to-day that such improvements as have taken place in the period under review—improvements financial or otherwise—were almost entirely due to emergency conditions. Will the Minister tell us what efforts, if any, are being made to improve the services? Are we in this country to reconcile ourselves to the position that, so far as a great number of our citizens are concerned, they are only to have two or three deliveries per week, while other citizens, because they are more luckily located, are to have two or three services per day?

Deputy Norton mentioned that on a recent occasion he had to wait over an hour for a telephone call from Dublin to Kildare. An experience of that kind is so common down the country that we would not make any wonder of it at all. As a matter of fact, it is a common thing to have to wait from one to three hours when making a trunk call down the country. It is a usual scene to see a person who has to make a call kicking his heels in a post office from one to three hours. I have had experience of waiting two hours and ten minutes to make a call to a place only 24 miles distant. I know parts of the country where if a letter is posted on Friday to a place not more than 20 miles distant, it will not be delivered until the following Wednesday. Compared with other countries, our telephone service is very primitive, and there is no evidence, from the Minister's statement, that any attempt is being made to improve it. The telephone service is one in which we should look for improvement and advancement. The Minister may say, and with a good deal of justification, that it is not possible to do much during the emergency, but I will be anxious to hear if the Department is making any preparation for the post-war period, and whether plans are being thought out for the improvement of the telephone services. In many towns it is impossible to make or receive a telephone call after 7 p.m. Does the Minister think that that is giving service, or that he could pat himself on the back for having a surplus of £180,000, if the people are not getting the facilities to which they are entitled?

Is the Minister satisfied that he is doing his job merely by carrying on in the same old way that we have been carrying on for the past 20 years? I have been listening to the Estimate for Posts and Telegraphs for a good many years, and I must confess that I have never seen any change. One year after another it is the same old story that we had to-day. People who only see a postman twice a week, and for whom the telephone is as far away as it was 30 or 40 years ago, see no evidence of any change. I hope these matters will receive the immediate attention of the Department, and that they will be remedied as soon as possible—first of all, postal deliveries in rural areas, and secondly, the telephone service. These services are unsatisfactory in rural parts.

I think the Minister cannot contend that the telephone service is satisfactory if people have to wait from one to two hours for a trunk call to a point 30 miles distant. There is obviously something wrong. I admit that it is possible to get a call through from Dublin quickly, but in other places it takes from one to two hours to do so. I know nothing about the technical difficulties and I do not know if they can be remedied now. I find it hard to believe that they cannot be remedied. It may not be possible to do much during the emergency, but I am satisfied that there could be an improvement in the service if the Minister set about it with the Department. Perhaps the Minister would tell us il any plans have been made for the improvement of the telephone and postal services in the post-war period. By improving these services and by providing for the people facilities which they do not now enjoy, much could be done to absorb some of the unemployed that we will have here when the war ends.

Mr. Allen

I desire to bring to the notice of the Minister the charges made for delivery of telegrams in rural areas. It is time that the Department, or whoever is responsible, abolished the charges that are now made for the delivery of telegrams. While that-may be a matter for the Minister for Finance, it should be the policy of the Minister in charge of Posts and Telegraphs to see that people living two, three or four miles from a post office, receive telegrams on the same terms as those living within a mile of it. A charge of 3d. is made for delivery over one mile and, where people live from four to ten miles distant, it is most unfair to make them pay perhaps 2/- or 2/6 for delivery. I consider that to be unjust, as citizens are entitled to equal facilities there is no reason why people who live in the country should be penalised to provide facilities for those living in towns. I believe there is an absolute necessity to improve the telephone facilities. I have had to wait from threequarters of an hour to an hour in order to make a trunk call. I do not know if the delay is due to the fact that the lines are overloaded. That seems to be the only explanation. The delays that occur are enough to cause heart disease to people waiting to make trunk calls. Delays of that kind are worse than waiting for trains that do not arrive on time. It is an old-standing grievance with people in rural areas to have to pay for delivery charges and I hope that the Minister will have the matter remedied during his term of office.

The Post Office has been described as the Cinderella of the Departments. I do not believe that. The remedies that I suggest may cost a couple of thousand pounds, but the money would be well spent if everybody could enjoy the facilities provided on the same terms. In a case where a death occurs in a family, and where charges for delivery have to be paid on telegrams, the expense sometimes comes to a couple of pounds. I hope that the telephone service will be linked up with villages along with the electricity supply that has been promised to rural areas. It is absolutely necessary, if there is to be any development of the Post Office services, that the telephone system should be extended to areas which are at present ten, 15 and 20 miles away from the telephone. I know that it will cost money and that it cannot be done during the war, but plans should be got ready for the providing of these facilities after the war.

With regard to the one and two-day deliveries in some rural areas, I think that when the war is over, when men are healthy and money is plentiful, the Post Office should provide an every day delivery all over the country. We have no objection to the towns having half a dozen deliveries a day, but the people who live in rural areas, and especially at present with transport difficulties as they are, are entitled to an every day delivery. The position at present is that a letter posted in Dublin to-day may not reach a certain part of County Wexford until next Saturday. That has been my experience. Only a fortnight ago, I posted a letter here in the House at four or five o'clock in the evening to a place where I know there is an every day delivery, and the letter did not reach that place until two days later.

I wrote to the Minister some time ago about that matter, and about the necessity of having a collection at 8 p.m. in order to connect with the night mails going down the country. That suggestion was accepted, but, whatever is wrong, it is not operating properly. Not alone should the Department provide a collection which will connect with the night mails going down the country in the Post Office in the House, but in post offices all over the city. Under the present arrangement, a letter takes three days to reach its destination—if the post does not go to-night, it will not arrive down the country until Thursday. In view of the emergency, and the small number of trains running, there should be more constant collections, especially in the city and town areas. I stress again the position with regard to the charge for the delivery of telegrams in rural areas, and hope that the Minister will agree to abandon that charge.

Mr. O'Donovan

I want to draw the Minister's attention to the conditions affecting out-of-the-way rural areas like West Cork and, possibly, Kerry, where, along the seaboard, there are areas practically completely cut away from postal services. Last week, a Deputy from my constituency asked a question with regard to postal facilities in West Cork. I have received communications in that connection and have approached officials of the Department time and again with a view to ascertaining whether the position could be remedied. It is very hard to find a remedy in the present condition of transport, but I still think that a lot could, and should, be done. I think it is possible to do it, even in existing circumstances.

As a case in point, I may mention that a train leaves Cork at 5 o'clock in the morning, arriving at Skibbereen at 8 or 8.30 a.m. There is no postal delivery from Skibbereen to the isolated areas in the west where business people living on the seaboard, working under difficulties with regard to securing provisions, and so on, would require a delivery of letters every day. There is no telephone connection whatever and their only means of communication is a letter or telegram. Some means should be devised by the Minister to enable letters which arrive on that morning train to be delivered to that western seaboard. I make this plea not alone for that particular area, but for other areas of the country, because I am certain that the position in other areas is similar. At present it is difficult for business people to get stocks of provisions and poor people who want to get their provisions find that when a shopkeeper gets a letter from his dealer in Cork and replies to it, there is no stuff available. I think the Minister should concentrate on areas like those and arrange for letters to be delivered. I do not know if it would be difficult to provide a daily delivery, but I think it should be done.

I dislike referring to isolated cases in particular areas, but I want to draw the Minister's attention to what recently occurred in my area, that is, the closing down of the mail car service from Clonakilty to Roscarbery. I do not know how long that mail car has been running, but it has been running since before I was born. The mails came into Clonakilty each morning at 6.30 or 7 o'clock, and were then taken in the mail car for delivery to Roscarbery, a distance of eight miles. I understand that the reason for the closing down of that service is that the contractor who contracted to remove the mails to Roscarbery in the morning, and from Roscarbery in the evening, could not keep it going at the contract price. He appealed to the Department for an increased price because the cost of the upkeep of the horse, car, harness, etc., was double what it was pre-war. The reply of the Post Office, or the Minister, was to close down the service completely, instead of responding to his demand, and giving him a decent contract price. The position now is that the mails are taken from Clonakilty Junction on to Skibbereen, a distance of 20 miles further on from Roscarbery, arriving there at 8.30 or 9 o'clock, and the mails for Roscarbery brought back by bus the next morning, so that it is an "all-round the world for fun" business at the moment in that area.

I make this special plea for Roscarbery, not because it is a very big or thriving place, but because an industry was developed there to a considerable extent—to an extent greater than any other place in County Cork and probably in Ireland. I refer to the export of fowl—of chickens, turkeys and geese. The people engaged in that industry had a very important and extensive cross-Channel connection before the war, and they have a very big connection still with other areas at home. The Christmas season is at hand and how these people are to get their stuff away, I do not know. The mails are brought in from Roscarbery by bicycle, but how is the young fellow who brings them in on a bicycle to bring in 20, 40 or a couple of hundred chickens or turkeys? I should like to know what arrangement is being made to provide a service in that case.

As Deputy Morrissey said, instead of the Department improving as it gets older, like good wine, it is deteriorating and the services disimproving, and cases such as those I have cited are proof of it. I hope these matters will be remedied and remedied immediately, and that an effort will be made to provide a delivery of letters to these out of the way places. Surely it is not because of the small cost involved in the appointment of an extra postman or two that the Post Office cannot find ways and means of improving the situation, in view of the present difficult transport conditions? I suggest that they should be able to do it.

Deputy Allen spoke of the charge for the delivery of telegrams in rural areas. I am very keen on this question, and I think it most unfair that persons living further than a mile from the post office should be charged 3d. for every extra mile, while, within the mile area, there is a free delivery. I believe this is a hardy annual on this Estimate. It has come up year after year but nothing has been done. I hope that as a result of the appeal made to him by Deputy Allen, and which will possibly be made by other Deputies, a level charge will be made for telegrams. I do not see why you should fine or mulct a person because he lives in an out-of-the-way place. Such a person is suffering enough at present. He does not know anything about the telephone. He does know something about telegrams. The telegram is his only way of sending news to his friends or sending an order for something, and it is unfair to make him pay extra for it. I ask the Minister to consider these points and see if it is possible under existing conditions to have them remedied.

Mr. Larkin

I suggest to the Minister that his approach to these Estimates is all wrong in principle. In his suave, kindly way, speaking in a tone that was not heard except in certain portions of the House, he explained how happy he was because there was a certain margin of profit. Once you approach this problem of service from the point of view of profit, then it shows that you have got the ordinary shop-keeping type of mind. I regretted to hear Deputy Dockrell talking about selling goods to the public in the way a shopkeeper would sell them. I am sure the Minister sees the absurdity of that. We do not want any of that type of business in a public service. We do want, of course —I think it is a generous idea—to educate the public. God knows, they want education, because though they might be going into the post office every day for years they will know as much at the beginning as at the end. We are out to educate the public, but the public should be out to educate themselves. At the same time, we are out to give service to the public. In what measures are we giving it? We are giving it to those who will bring in a certain margin of profit to the service and we are ignoring those who would not return a margin of profit— they are not part of the body politic. Deputies on the Minister's side of the House as well as those on the other side are agreed that we are not giving service. But we have a margin of profit of £180,000 or thereabouts. It is a beautiful picture.

In this country we have people isolated in small communities and we have got, I suppose, the most crude and primitive form of communication by road, rail and sea of any country in the universe. We are manufacturing nothing in connection with this particular service. We do not even attempt to organise our own workshop. At the present moment, when we are going through a crisis, we have to sit down with our hands in our pockets waiting for somebody outside the State to provide us with the means of communication. Yet we have some of the best technicians in the world in this particular service. In this matter of communicating through the air or by wire, we have some of the best technicians who know their business. Yet we are waiting for somebody outside to tell us how to do it. We cannot even cast a telephone stand. We have to go to Sweden or the United States for what an ordinary boy in a technical school would be able to turn out. We have no wire. Of course we will never have any wire. We will never have anything at all until we try to understand what we want from the technical point of view. In the City of Dublin there are thousands of yards of wire suspended in the streets lying idle for the past five or six years. Of course the Government would never think of taking control of that and running it through a machine. It is some of the best copper wire that could be made. Yet people operating in the black market can come to you and tell you: "If you want an extension, we will do it for you at a price.' The black market agents are in Dublin at present advertising themselves and making connections, doing what the Post Office cannot do. It is a peculiar thing that they can get wire. I suggest that that is a line of thought which the Minister might apply his mind to.

I want particularly to call attention to what has become one of the jokes of Dublin, and that is the telephone system for courting couples that has been arranged by the Minister, and which is carried on at a very low price. In Clones, I believe, they divide the sexes in their cinema, but the Minister goes out of his way to bring them together, and at a very cheap rate. There is no time limit to the conversations which they can carry on on the telephone while the rest of the public can stand in queues outside the telephone box waiting for them to finish. I suggest that it is not a very technical problem to cut off these conversations after a certain number of minutes. Sometimes you have to stand outside a telephone box for half an hour while some gentleman inside is telephoning to his young lady, or some young lady is communicating with some young gentleman. I have waited outside a telephone box for 35 minutes while a university student was carrying on a conversation on the telephone with his dearly beloved. I suppose he paid the usual twopence. Surely, as in any other, country, they can be automatically cut off. If they want to have another twopence worth of endearing talk they should pay another twopence. That would make them wake up to the fact that the public have some rights.

Then half the telephone boxes in Dublin are out of order. On one occasion I wanted to make a telephone call in Baggot Street to get a person removed to a hospital, but the telephone was broken. I went on to Waterloo Road, but the telephone there was also broken. Then I went to Ballsbridge, I put my 2d. in the box, and I got 10d. back. It is the greatest joke in the world. As to the rural areas, every village in Ireland ought to have a telephone box, as there is in the United States and Canada, where you have party wires. There is no difficulty in getting four or eight branches on a party wire. I suggest to the Minister that he should send out engineers to inspect the call-boxes in the-Dublin area.

As to communications, we have only a limited train service due to certain difficulties which we cannot get over. Why cannot we use an air service for the carriage of mails? What would it cost? There is a sum of £180,000 there. What about using it to purchase some machines and starting an air service? In Cork they have a municipal airport. Why not construct one in Waterford, Limerick and other places and have a service continually running? We have some of the best air pilots in the world. Why not get them to fly light machines carrying mails? What difficulty is there in doing it? None whatever, only stupidity, and lack of initiative. Look at the training it would be when you do develop that service, as you will have to develop it, because no nation is going to carry fast mail by rail or by water after the war. I suggest that it would cost very little. There are some machines available. We have ten or 12 machines which came down by accident which could be turned into carriers of mails. I think we have also one or two Douglas machines lying idle. We have a very up-to-date group of men who are engaged in that particular activity. Why not employ them by spending this £180,000?

I also want to call attention to what is the most important factor—the people who carry on this service. If there is a bunch of slaves in any country in the world, it is those who carry on the work under the Minister's directions both inside and outside the Post Office. At present postmen have got a very important job. Many of them are carrying around a lot of money; they are entrusted with very valuable property. What do they get by way of appreciation of their services? As public servants they come under certain regulations. But why should they be treated separately and distinctly from ordinary industrial workers? Surely, a postman in Dublin has as many calls upon him from a family point of view as a man working in the dockyard, or on a railway. The Minister responsible for the control of the railways was good enough to make a generous gesture a week or two ago, and not only broke the law, but went out of his way to break the law, by giving labourers an increase of 5/- in their wages and a bonus of 8/-. I want to thank him for it. If that Department can do it, why cannot the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs return to these men some part of the money they have made by their services to the community? Surely, they are entitled to some return. Auxiliary postmen, and men on the staff, are not getting fair play. I would ask the Minister to consider whether these men are not worthy of a measure of appreciation.

Deputy Norton has made it clear that the contract of service with these men is being violated. It was understood that they were to get overcoats every two years. The Minister claims that he cannot get the cloth. I admit that there is a certain amount of truth in that. There is a limit to the amount of cloth available for this particular type of coat. But if we cannot get one kind of cloth, we can get another. If the ordinary commercial shops have the type of cloth required to protect these men, why cannot the Minister go in and seize that, in the interests of these servants of the State? Is there anything more miserable for a man than to be wet for four or five hours? I understand some of these men still do a certain amount of sorting. They go into a depôt where the temperature is probably 82 to 90 degrees and then go out into an atmosphere of 61 degrees. The men are not getting the boots or the overcoats and oilskins to which they are entitled.

In connection with certain other public servants, the responsible Minister gave power to give money in lieu of clothing. The Joint Board of Grangegorman gave the employees a certain amount of money to buy boots, when the board could not buy them. Why not do the same with the Post Office servants? I bought a coat a few days ago. If I can buy it, why cannot these men who are doing a more important job than I am also buy them? These men have to do long walks in the City of Dublin and, in the rural areas, they have to cycle perhaps 26 miles, badly clothed. The Minister should have some sense of responsibility. It is not a question of the sick pay involved. It is the question of men's health being broken and their families deprived of their services at too early an age as a result of lack of attention. It is all very well for a smug supervising officer in a nicely furnished office. When these matters come before him, he turns them down as not being within the regulations. I remember one time going to a particular office to an officer who has since passed to his rest. I was putting a certain case to him. In his smug official way he jeered at the complaints of these under-paid men. If I were an official of such a Department I would be only too eager to do everything possible to help and protect my fellow-workers who, although they would be getting less wages, would be doing more useful work. I suggest to the Minister that that is a matter which requires attention. The responsibility lies with you. If you take £180,000 and measure it against men's health, I say you must take the responsibility for their lives and their health. Look at it from that point of view.

An Ceann Comhairle

May I remind the Deputy that the Chair is not responsible for the administration of the Post Office?

Mr. Larkin

Not you, Sir. I feel sure if I made that submission to you, you would respond immediately.

An Ceann Comhairle

The word "you" means that a Deputy is addressing the Chair.

Mr. Larkin

I am referring to the Minister, through you.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should address the Chair and refer to the Minister as Minister.

Mr. Larkin

I did mention the Minister, with all due respect. In any case, I will correct myself under your guidance. I suggest, through the Chair, that the Minister should accept his responsibility, and I think every member of the Government should take the same measure of responsibility, for the position that they are making a big profit at the expense of men's health. That is a position that does not commend itself to the people of this country. They do not want a profit made at the expense of the lives of these men.

I do not know whether or not I can get information as to the number of additional officers employed in connection with the paying out of postal orders from a country adjacent to our own. I am told that men engaged on this work are particularly harassed by the inflow at certain periods—the weekends—of very large amounts. I do not think that section is adequately staffed and I suggest that additional staff should be engaged. I understand that some £80,000 is cashed here between Friday and Monday. I understand the officers get a certain amount of overtime but I do not think it is a question of overtime; it is a question of their health. Like Deputy Norton, I do not know how these men stand the strain in the head office.

Deputy Allen, a member of the Fianna Fáil Party, said he was an hour and a half in the post office, waiting to get a telegram through, and that he almost lost his temper. It is interesting to find any member of the Fianna Fáil Party losing his temper. They have nothing else to lose. Why did he not ring the Minister and say: "Look here, I am an hour and a half waiting here. You are paying me at the rate of £10 a week and I am being held up and cannot do anything for it. I suggest you get somebody in here to assist." Would not that be the practical thing to do? Oh, no. He will make his little demur to-day but when the Whip tells him to walk down the Lobby and to condone every offence of the Minister he will walk very quietly and very meekly, I suggest that he should walk into another Lobby. I hope a vote is taken on this Estimate so that we may express our resentment at making £180,000 profit while not giving service to the public.

Mr. Looney

I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to one important matter—that is, the great lack of telephone facilities for people who have been transferred to building schemes outside the city of Cork. I have one particular place in mind at the moment, that is, Spangle Hill and Gurranebraher, in County Cork. The scheme was finished two years ago, and there are about 2,000 inhabitants living two miles from the nearest telephone. I wish to draw the Minister's attention to his grave responsibility. Very often it may be a matter of life and death to have telephone facilities. The Minister will realise that speed is very important in getting an ambulance or doctor. These people have made application to the Cork County Council, and the Minister makes the excuse that he has not got the equipment. I am thinking that provision should have been made, two or three years ago, to deal with this matter, and I hope that the Minister will give more consideration than, apparently, he has given, to dealing with this. For instance, I should like to call to the Minister's attention that there is a sub-post office in Ringaskiddy, County Cork, in which there are no telephone facilities for the general public. It is a seaside village, and the people concerned are at least three or four miles from the nearest telephone exchange. I think that that is a terrible condition of affairs, and I hope that the Minister will take steps to give to-these people the facilities to which they are entitled.

Mr. Byrne

I shall not take much time, as I do not wish to delay the House, but I should like to ask the Minister to see that some part of the £180,000 profit made by the Post Office should be devoted to helping out PostOffice workers who are struggling along on very small pay, and especially to those who, prior to the war, went out of the Post Office service on very small pensions. As a result of the rise in the cost of living, these pensions give them very little upon which to exist. I think that, in view of the increased profits made by the Post Office, some of these profits should go to those who earned them. We hear of men in the Post Office service drawing less than £3 a week. Now, I only know of one body of men who are worse paid than they are, and that is the lock-keepers on the Grand Canal. I appeal, therefore, to the Minister, to apply some of this profit of £180,000 for the benefit of those people who went out previous to the emergency.

Mr. Hughes

I do not know where the profit, to which some Deputies have alluded, comes in, or to what purpose it has been applied, when we are asked to vote this sum. The Minister, in presenting his Estimate, referred to the question of seconding officers of his Department to other Departments. Now, I take very strong exception to that practice, because I think that no businessman will agree to it. Whatever costs are incurred in one Department ought to be properly accounted for in that Department, according to my belief, and I think that this practice of seconding officials from one Department to another, and putting down their salaries and expenses to the account of the former Department, is very misleading. One can understand that, at the start of the emergency, certain officers or officials should be given on loan from one Department to the other, but three or four years have passed, and I do not think it is fair to this particular Department, with which we are now concerned, that the expenses incurred in paying the officers serving in another Department should be charged to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I really think that the Minister should bring that matter to the attention of the Government. I feel that he should not stand for it, and that neither should the House stand for it.

One thing that must be remembered is that, in connection with a neighbouring country, all moneys spent in connection with every Department have to be properly accounted for under the proper heading, and I do not think that the system we have been following in that regard, for the past three or four years, can be justified. While a good deal of criticism that has been levelled at post office administration generally in this country, might be justified, one must bear in mind that we are living in a period of emergency; that there is difficulty in regard to shortages of supplies in regard to transport, and also other difficulties which are due to the emergency. We must bow to these undoubted difficulties, but I am sure that the House has been pleased to be informed that there is likely to be a further development of the telephone service in this country. Of course, we are all aware that telephone service in this country, generally, is on a very much lower level than in other countries, and that an extension of that service would be a great asset to our people.

One thing that was mentioned by Deputies in this connection—and I do not think it would hamper the activities of the Department to make such a provision—was the provision of telephone kiosks in the towns and villages of this country for the convenience of country people who want to get in touch, over the telephone, with their friends, after the ordinary hours. I understand that these people find it impossible to do so now, because, according to my information, it is not permissible for the Civic Guards at present to book an originating call. As I understand the situation, the Civic Guards can receive a call, originating somewhere else, but there is now a difficulty in originating a call from a Civic Guard station down the country. If that difficulty arises so far as the Department of Justice is concerned, then I think that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs should make some arrangement, so far as is possible, for the provision of telephone kiosks in towns and villages throughout the country.

I have also heard complaints recently about the long delay in receiving trunk calls—particularly in the districts to which Deputy Norton has referred: that is, districts where the military are concentrated. I may say that I have had experience of that myself. It seems that the military get priority over other citizens in this question of making trunk calls. Now, I do not think there is any justification at present in giving our Defence Forces priority over other citizens where the ordinary commercial transactions of the country are concerned. If we were in imminent danger, of course, one could quite understand that the military must get priority in the matter of telephonic or any other kind of communication, but it seems to me that the priority that is being given to the military at present can be, and is being, abused, and that the general public are suffering as a result. Sometimes, a businessman has to wait patiently because a young fellow happens to be on the wire over a trivial matter—something in the nature of what Deputy Larkin has already described to the House. I do not think that that is good enough, and I do not think that there should be any question of priority in the matter of such a service at the present time.

In that connection, I should like to say that, from my own experience, and from what I have heard from other people, it is much easier to book a trunk call from a private telephone than from a public post office. According to what I hear—and, indeed, from my own experience—it takes much longer to get the reply from a trunk call made through a public call-office than from a call made from a private house. That may seem to be rather peculiar, but experience has shown to me that that is the position, and I do not think that it should be so. It would appear to me that, if any preferential treatment is to be given in this matter, it ought to be given to the ordinary people who have to go to the public call-office rather than to the private subscriber who can wait more conveniently in his own house for the call to come through. I think that preference, if there is any, should be given to the person who has to travel four, five or six miles to the nearest village or town, and who then has to wait patiently for his call to come through. I think that such a man has, at least, as just and equal a claim, at all events, as the private subscriber and, in my opinion, such a person ought to be given preferential treatment, because he may not be able to get the service he wants at the moment. Now, the Minister knows that, as a result of the present lack of certain other facilities, due to the emergency, there has been a substantial increase in the demand for extra telephone services. That, of course, is due to the fact that we have not, at the moment, the facilities for communication that we had before the emergency.

Deputy Larkin has referred to the party-wire system which we had in operation a few years ago to a very large extent. It has been dropped. There was some objection to the system, apparently, because of the possibility of neighbours listening in to one's conversation. It was, and is, I think, a very useful and cheap method of providing telephone facilities for people in country districts, especially to do business of a type about which they do not mind people hearing. It was an advantage to men in the cattle trade, for instance, men anxious to arrange business matters quickly. I do not know that it was wise to drop the system because it did give a cheap service and was a distinct advantage to people such as I have mentioned.

Deputies have referred to a number of districts in which the delivery of letters is very slow. In some districts there are only two deliveries in the week. This is a public service for which public moneys have to be voted and there is no reason why one district should get preferential treatment over another.

It is not fair that people living in remote districts should be penalised because of their geographical position. I suppose it is true that there may not be the same urgency about the business of people living in these districts as about that of people living in the bigger towns and villages, but, nevertheless, some effort should be made to give them a better service, if possible, at the present time. I do not want to be unreasonable in my criticism so far as delays in delivery are concerned, because I know that transport facilities are restricted, and that there is a very definite limitation to the mileage which can be covered, due to the acute shortage of petrol. We have, I suppose, to be thankful for small mercies, and for the fact that delays are not more serious. In conclusion, I would join with other Deputies in appealing to the Minister to endeavour to improve the telephone facilities.

Mr. L. Cosgrave

There are just a few matters to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. One is a matter to which Deputy Norton has already referred—namely, the question of the clogging of lines. Deputy Norton referred in particular to Balbriggan, a town in which there are three or four fairly large industries. As far as I am aware, there are only two direct lines to that town, and I have had experience of them in two capacities. In one instance, very often we found ourselves in the position that both lines were being used by the military. The result was that on a couple of occasions people attempting to do business were cut off in the middle of a trunk call— very often, because of the nature of their business, a trunk call from the other side. I think the Minister should do something to try to increase the number of lines serving that town, because it is a town whose trade is dependent to a large extent on adequate telephone facilities. Deputy Norton has mentioned the fact that the lines are clogged completely on occasions by the military. I suggest that one line should be left all the time available for civilian use.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

Mr. Cosgrave

Another matter that calls for attention is the question of an earlier delivery of letters to certain parts of County Dublin. There are certain areas which are only six or eight miles from the city such as Castleknock, Templeogue, Clonsilla and similar places and the deliveries are just as late there as in remote country districts. While in the case of remote country districts, lack of transport facilities may serve as an excuse, in the districts to which I refer a slight alteration in the time of delivery would make it far more convenient for business people and others who have to leave home at a certain hour in the morning to come in to town. If they do not receive their letters before leaving home it is unlikely that they will get them until the next day.

Another matter to which I wish to direct the Minister's attention may be the responsibility, in part at least, of his colleague the Minister for Agriculture, but it is of fairly recent occurrence. I refer to the fact that parcels containing food, either tinned food or cooked food, which were posted for England were confiscated after a couple of days. The particular case which I have in mind occurred in Dun Laoghaire and I can give the Minister the details should he require them. The individual concerned posted the parcel on Monday and on Friday received word that the parcel had been confiscated. Not being aware of the existence of an Order prohibiting the posting of such food, this person made inquiry at the Post Office and was told that the Order prohibiting the export of such articles only came to the office on Wednesday. So far as that individual is concerned the Order, therefore, had retrospective effect. That is a thing that should not happen. It may be that the Order was issued on that particular Monday—it was the 25th October—but so far as these individuals were concerned it had retrospective effect because they did not know of it nor did the people in the post office at which it was posted until after the article had been confiscated. In certain cases these were registered parcels, so that the people concerned suffered a double loss. They suffered the loss of the perishable goods which the parcels contained and also the loss of the registration fee. I think the Minister should make inquiries and, if he likes, I will give him particulars of a case. It may be unavoidable that the Order should have arrived late, but the people should not be placed at a loss.

Deputy Norton referred to the question of clothing for postmen. I know numerous cases where postmen have been part-time and are now whole-time and are still working in their own clothes. In inclement weather this causes a certain amount of hardship and I am quite certain that, if the Minister looks into it, some provision could be made to lessen it. I would be glad if he would look into these few points, particularly the clogging of lines by the military in the town mentioned, causing a certain amount of dislocation as far as commercial interests are concerned.

Mr. Larkin (Junior)

Certain references have been made to the lack of staff at the General Post Office and the general air almost of sleepiness which seems to pervade that building. I am a very regular customer there and it seems to me that, instead of being regarded as a General Post Office, it could at times be regarded as a mausoleum for the statue of Cuchulainn which is so prominent on the main floor. At times one might as well be in a mausoleum, for all the information or guidance one can get. It is quite true that the General Post Office is understaffed: anyone attending there on Thursdays or Fridays would realise that. There are long queues of women and children waiting to be paid money orders from England and one can realise that, not only is the place understaffed but the men must be driven almost to nervous prostration on account of the nervous strain. Women, with hungry young children around them, are waiting there maybe up to an hour and that long endless queue is still going on. It is quite correct that at times there has been a uniformed officer on the floor of the building to give information, but when one realises that within three or four weeks that floor will be a seething mass of human beings almost like cattle in pens, it is obvious that it is unthinkable to try to find a small-sized man in a dark uniform, even if one knew he was the sole source of information. I was aware for many years that this man was placed there for the information of customers, but it was almost a physical impossibility to see him.

In regard to getting any guidance from the single designations—postal orders, money orders, stamps, etc.—no one seems to realise that, added to those, the booths deal with an endless variety of services. I remember going to get a dog licence. It may be that I was stupid, but I thought that where stamps were issued would be the right place. Instead of that, it was where postal orders are issued, and only after going around several booths did I finally discover the right place. I was well able to put up with the delay and inconvenience. I saw, however, one old woman trying to get a money order. By mistake, she got into the queue for the postal orders. The queue happened to be made up of ten or 12 people, and it took seven or eight minutes to get to the top of the queue. When she reached the booth, of course, she was told that she was at the wrong booth and would have to go to the money order one. Then she queued up in the queue of which I was a member. It was made up of 12 or 15 people and after threequarters of an hour she finally reached the booth where the money orders were issued, to discover then that she could not get a money order until she had filled up a form. She had to go back again to the table to obtain the form, fill it up and then tail on to the end of the queue.

It seems to me that to talk about service or the making of profit in the Post Office is largely inducing a degree of humour. The Post Office is there neither to give service nor to make profit. It would be very simple to put up, in the main entrance hallway to the G.P.O., a statement of the various counters and the various forms of service provided at each counter for the customers. That would give, under the heading "stamps", postal stamps, unemployment and national health stamps, the various prepaid stamped cards, etc. Then a person would not have to wander round in a daze from booth to booth to find the particular service catered for at each booth.

Secondly, at the booths themselves, surely there could be more information than the bare statement at present given. There may be three or four different services provided at a particular booth. It is not a question of extra expense but one of ordinary intelligence and, as I was reminded here, of courtesy. The courtesy is there with the attendant behind the counter, but one cannot expect any attendant to be courteous when he has to deal with five or six times the normal number of people. Anyone who knows the ordinary technique of an office knows that it is most tiring and nerve-racking to be turning continually from one job to another—issuing postal orders, dog licences, etc.—all the time passing back and forth and, in addition, the ever-present responsibility of keeping a check on money, in case one may be called to account at the end of the day. When dealing with money and the public, the attendants have to be particularly careful.

I suggest that these forms of information should be made available. It may be even worth the Minister's trouble to have a central information desk in the G.P.O. There is a central desk there for writing telegrams but, as far as I can see, the only purpose for which it is used is that of writing letters, as you could never get near it to write a telegram. It could easily be turned into a central information desk, with one or two people, not only to tell where the services are given at the counters but to advise the ordinary people on their particular postal problems.

Deputy Larkin has told us that it is not the duty of the Post Office to educate the public, but the duty of the public to educate themselves. I must be still uneducated in that regard, as I have been trying for several years, and am still in ignorance of some of the services—and I do not suppose I am any more stupid than the average member of the House. It is quite true that the Post Office is not looking for customers. They do not want to give service. In regard to the ordinary postman, the ordinary man behind the counter and the ordinary temporary postman, they are in contact with the public and, so far as is within their small measure of liberty, they try to be courteous and to give service. But those who sit behind desks and decide where men shall be put in a booth in the General Post Office and which booths should be empty, do not seem to have much consideration for the public.

At times, you will see a booth open for service and then the curtains— with which everyone is familiar—are opened about six inches. Hidden behind the curtains is the attendant. I do not know whether he is afraid of the public or not, but it would not be very much harm if the curtains were opened further to throw a little light on the proceedings. It is very discouraging to persons who are not used to dealing with public officials, to find that the curtain is half drawn. They are not quite sure whether or not to intrude upon the gentleman behind the counter, who is writing up some return or dealing with some other problem. I have watched people standing for quite a while, hesitant to disturb the attendant, not knowing whether the booth was open for business or not.

On the question of the delivery of mails by air, as the Minister for Defence is in the House now, it should be no harm to support the plea made here. We have a number of aeroplanes in this country—I do not suppose I dare mention how many, or I may be brought before the Minister for Justice —and it is also true that officers who are designated as pilots have to perform a certain number of hours' duty in the air, in order to retain their wings. Surely, there is no more valuable form of training for air navigation or night flying than the delivery of mails? The backbone of many of the heavy bomber services now throughout the world was formed on the basis of civil transportation before the war, especially in America, where the famous epic stories of mail planes journeying through storms were utilised in the cinema for the entertainment of the public. Nevertheless, they had a very strong basis in fact, in the sense that, if you have to keep to schedule, you find means and ways of doing it. Even if the mails were to be flown by aeroplane and dropped by parachute, where not practicable otherwise, it would be an additional service for the isolated country districts, and certainly would not interfere with the training of our Air Force, while it would put those aeroplanes to some useful purpose.

Many country Deputies seem to be worried about telephones. I do not make many trunk calls, but occasionally I find it necessary to make local calls. It is quite true that practically every telephone—when one desires to use the telephone from the city to some outlying area—is occupied. There is also the fact that the outlying areas of large towns and cities —Deputy Looney referred to this matter also—are not adequately supplied with telephone booths. Take Crumlin, as an example. I do not believe there is a telephone booth included in the scheme there. On occasions when people fall sick in an area such as Crumlin it may mean walking a mile or a mile and a half searching for a telephone. Those people do not know where the nearest telephone may be, whether in a house or in a shop, and very often they have to travel to the other end of the area or go to the police barracks in order to use the telephone.

If we can have five or six telephone booths around O'Connell Bridge to facilitate people anxious to carry on some polite conversation, surely we can erect at least one telephone which would be an actual necessity in some of the new housing areas. In such places a telephone is sometimes an absolute necessity, when people rush out to summon medical aid and when, perhaps, it may be a matter of life or death. If you go to the G.P.O., the very heart of the industry, and you want to make a local call, you may have to wait three-quarters of an hour in a small room where there are at least 20 telephones, before you can make your call. I earnestly suggest that there should be greater facilities given to the people in these new housing areas on the outskirts of the city in the matter of a telephone service. Booths should be erected in the centre of the housing area, so that they will be available for emergency calls, particularly at night.

During the debate reference was made to the need for protective clothing, and it was suggested that if the Minister denies this protective clothing to the men, it is a breach of contract. We should be accustomed now to breaches of contract, not only on the part of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, but on the part of most of the Ministers. Have they all kept their word or bond in respect of the ordinary employees of their Departments? It is quite true it would be a breach of contract not to supply these men with clothing as part of their emoluments. Not only the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, but other Ministers, have broken a far more serious contract in respect of the wages of their employees when they stabilised the bonus at 185 and denied the workers the rights and privileges to which they were entitled. Taking the Department of Posts and Telegraphs as one instance, why should the men employed in that Department be treated worse than men engaged in other forms of public service? They have received, it is true, a certain limited form of bonus, but the amount paid to them is far below what is being paid to their workers by good employers in the country; as a matter of fact, it is not equal to 50 per cent. of the total bonuses paid in many undertakings since the war commenced.

I will draw your attention to what was done only the other day by one of the imperialistic concerns that we are always complaining about here, and that the Minister and his associates were so determined to deprive of their power in this country in the years gone by. This concern is now paying its workers a bonus of over £1 a week, in addition to the basic wage. The Department might well follow such an excellent example, but instead of doing so they have stabilised the bonus at 185 and given the workers only a very slight addition, an addition that would be, I suppose, considerably less than 6 or 7 per cent. On the other hand, they have raised the cost of postal and telephone services considerably. The Minister cannot say that he had to increase postal and telephone services because of increased wages. In this case the very reverse applies. We are paying more to the Department and they are not giving much consideration to the employees. In justice to these men and women, who give such good service, their miserable conditions should be improved. They are receiving miserable wages, wages far below the recognised standard of good wages. They should be given some relief from the standstill Order.

May I suggest that if Ministers have some difficulty in making their statements here extempore and find it necessary to prepare their speeches beforehand, they might be able to supply Deputies with copies? If those statements can be supplied to the Press, why could they not be supplied to Deputies? I should like to point out that it is rather difficult to follow a statement such as the Minister read out, a statement which was really a mass of figures. If we had that statement in advance, it would have been very helpful. I observed that none of the reporters took notes of the speech—they must have had the report supplied them. Why could not Deputies also be supplied with the statement? If we had it in advance we could listen with more enjoyment to the Minister reading it.

Mr. Healy

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the long delay that occurs in arranging trunk calls from South Kerry. I have heard some Deputies saying that often it takes an hour or two to get a trunk call. It is my experience in South Kerry that if you desire to get a trunk call, say, from Caherciveen to Dublin or Cork, it may take five or six hours before it is possible to make the call. I do not know why there should be such a long delay. I am sure it is not the fault of the local postal officials, as they are usually most courteous and efficient. I have made inquiries repeatedly and I have been informed there are numbers of priority calls. I suppose, as there are military stations at Valentia and Waterville, it is the military who are responsible for these calls, and they are getting the priority. Of course, it is essential they should at the present time, but all the same I think these calls might be limited to six minutes. If they were, then private subscribers would get a chance of putting their calls through.

Caherciveen is a very important fishing station, perhaps one of the most important along the south coast, and the merchants there, through necessity, must telephone Cork, Dublin and cross-Channel markets. They complain that, owing to the long delays over telephone calls, they have to cancel them and this interferes considerably with their business. The merchants of Caherciveen order ice from the Cork merchants. They are unable, on many occasions, to get the ice because they cannot get telephone calls through to Cork before the train leaves that city., This is a very serious matter for the fish merchants, and I think the Minister should see to it that the telephone calls to the Cork ice companies should receive some form of priority.

Mr. Little

Many questions have been raised with reference to the working of the various branches of the Department and, in accordance with the usual practice, Deputies have taken advantage of the opportunity to draw attention to complaints, which are normally made to postal officials all over the country. When the Estimate is being considered, the Minister has to bear the burden of complaints which usually come through official channels, and he has to try to deal with them in the House. With regard to any that I am not able to deal with now, they will be on the records and we will have them examined. That, I think, is the best way of dealing with them.

Deputy Dockrell raised a question with regard to the amount of money devoted to the purchase of sites. That money has nothing to do with the St. Andrew Street site. It has been purchased, and we are only waiting until the emergency is over in order to commence the work of building there. Of course, that also applies to other big building undertakings. The amount provided in the sub-head to which the Deputy refers is a "carry forward" from the previous year and is in respect of premises at Sandwith Street, the site of which will be utilised in connection with the erection of a new sorting office. Two houses occupied by tenants on the site have now been surrendered and the conveyance of the premises to the Department is in course of preparation.

The Deputy also asked about a great many contracts. A very heavy task was imposed on the Department when it had to change from motors to horse vehicles. The change was made with great success all over the country. Certain inconveniences were caused, but, on the other hand, a certain amount of advantage came out of the change, illustrating the truth of the old saying "it is an ill wind that does nobody good." A number of people were employed, who otherwise would not have been employed, in connection with horses, the provision of harness, cars and so on. The contracts are short term contracts, and wherever it is necessary, when the war is over, we will give the most improved services possible.

The Deputy also referred to our banking transactions. That really is a question more for the Department of Finance than for the Post Office. I do not know exactly what the Deputy would desire us to do. The facilities at present provided enable people to withdraw money on demand up to £3 on the presentation of their books and on the filling up of the required forms. Beyond that, I do not know that we are called upon to enter into competition with the ordinary banking system. The telephone book is now only published every nine months. That is due to reasons of economy, and because of the difficulty of procuring paper during the emergency. We try our best to keep it up to date, and in present circumstances I do not think it is reasonable to ask for anything more than that. I do not think that the practice of Post Offices in any country that I know of is to try to compete with the shops in showing their wares in the windows. There are other ways, I think, in which people can be informed of the various forms that exist. The number of forms is enormous. If they were to be spread all over the windows in the Post Offices through the country, it would certainly add very much to the labour of the ordinary sub-postmasters.

Mr. Larkin

There could not be a darker atmosphere in them than there is now.

Mr. Little

Deputy Norton raised several questions, one in particular with regard to the staffing of the counter at the General Post Office. I may say that, arising out of representations which have been made, I have had the staffing arrangements at the General Post Office counter specially examined. I find that in general the existing staffing is adequate, but that at peak hours pressure at times arises from the exceptional volume of emergency business that is now being transacted. The position is one which can only be remedied by the provision of additional counter accommodation, and it has, accordingly, been decided to open five new counter positions, suitably staffed, on the Prince's Street side of the building to which all emergency payment work, and particularly telegraph money orders, will be transferred. The necessary structural alterations are in progress, and the new arrangements will, it is expected, be brought into operation within the next few weeks. I think they will be found to provide a satisfactory solution of any difficulties hitherto experienced. I think that even Deputy Larkin (junior), will find it easier in future to get his dog licence than he has found it hitherto.

Deputy Norton also raised the question of wages paid in Howth. The scales of wages in Howth have been carefully examined and, of course, it depends on the number of the units of work in the office as to the fixing and grading of the post office and the scales of wages. No case has been established for any change in the existing scales of wages.

A further question raised by the Deputy was the upgrading and full-time establishment positions of temporary officers acting on full-time postmen's duties. With regard to the filling of posts by unestablished postmen, the Department has had difficulty in recommending the advancement of temporary full-time postmen to full-time unestablished rank by reason of doubts as to the continued need for the maintenance of the duties owing to emergency conditions. The practicability of advancement of the officers concerned has not been improved by the very serious restrictions of train and mail services which have taken place by reason of the unsatisfactory coal and petrol situation. There is no assurance that even the present curtailed road and transport services will not be further reduced, and in the circumstances it would be quite impossible for the Department to recommend upgrading.

The position with regard to protective clothing—waterproof clothing—to which Deputy Norton referred, is under constant review, and is a source of great anxiety to us. It is, however, a matter over which we have no effective control. The general supplies' position has worsened, and the Department of Supplies has intimated that material sufficient to meet only a fraction of the normal requirements will probably be available. In the circumstances it has been found necessary to extend appreciably the period of wear of waterproof, rubber, oilskins, garment capes and leggings. This necessarily applies to garments already in use as well as to new issues. It may be possible, in the case of officers whose duties lie in exceptionally exposed localities, to afford special treatment, but no assurance as to this can be given. The restrictions imposed by the Minister for Supplies to meet emergency conditions apply generally. The Post Office, in conjunction with the Department of Supplies, have done everything reasonably possible to meet the situation, but the difficulties are insuperable in present conditions and the restrictions imposed are inevitable.

The difficulties with regard to trunk calls from Kilcullen, Newbridge and Balbriggan, which the Deputy said was due to overloading, we shall have looked into, and see if any improvement can be made.

Deputy D. Morrissey referred to the number of services in the week: that in certain areas there were only two or three services per week, whereas in the cities you have so many services per day. Of course, that is justified by the money position in populous areas. We cannot give the same service in an area where the volume of business is extremely small. Out of about 4,000 posts throughout the country, only 1,700 have less than a 6-day service. In view of the economies which are at present necessary, an increase in frequency cannot be made. Deputy Allen and other Deputies suggested that a great improvement could be made in the whole of the postal and telephone services. Considerable improvements have already been made in the telephone service, especially by my predecessor, and when the emergency arose during my period, an enormous increase took place in the laying of telephone lines. Further developments must wait until after the war when, obviously, there must be considerable development of postal services in all parts. That is not a matter upon which I could now come to any definite conclusion. It would have to be left until later, because it requires very careful consideration. I should mention that a scheme between this Department and the Board of Works, has gone through all stages. It will cost about £70,000 and will mean the laying of concrete pipes for carrying underground cables. These cables will go from the larger centres of population. The pipes are actually being constructed in Ireland. When certain chemical processes take place it will be possible to put down the cables. The labour content on that work will represent almost 70 per cent. of the cost. The pipes will be left in that position until it is possible to get the cables when the emergency ends. Deputy Allen raised a question about the collection of letters in the city at night. There is a collection from all boxes in Dublin at 8.30 and a collection from certain special boxes at 10.30. I will look into the question to see if it is possible to improve the collection of letters in the House.

Mr. Allen

A collection at 8.30 is too late for the mail trains.

Mr. Little

I understand there is an earlier collection which catches the mails.

Mr. Allen

At 3.30 or 4 o'clock.

Mr. Little

I will have the matter carefully examined so as to bring the hours as close as possible to the hours of departure of mails. Deputy Allen also referred to the porterage charge on telegrams. Representations are regularly made to the Department about these charges. Prior to the 1st July, 1936, the charge was 6d. for each mile over one mile, when it was reduced to 3d. for the first mile. That concession involved a substantial loss. The additional cost of delivery free within two miles is estimated to cost £2,500, and if extended to three miles £4,000. The amount collected yearly on porterage over one mile is £4,800. It should be remembered that there is a deficit of £73,000 yearly on the telegraph service.

Mr. Allen

People in the country are entitled to the same facilities as those in the cities.

Mr. Little

If they pay for them. It is really a question of taxation. A question was raised by Deputy Larkin as to whether the Department should or should not make a profit. In normal times, when the strain on the public purse is not heavy, I think it would be an ideal thing that these services should just pay for themselves and no more. In abnormal times we must have regard to the calls on the community as a whole, and if the Department can make a contribution to the very heavy taxation that has to be raised, that is something that we should not object to.

Mr. Corish

What about the badly paid employees?

Mr. Little

As to payment in the service, it should be remembered that the general body of those employed have security, holidays, and also pay while sick, as well as other advantages.

Mr. Corish

Everything but good wages.

Mr. Little

They also got the advantage of the bonus at the beginning of the year.

Mr. Norton

It is only portion of what they are entitled to.

Mr. Larkin

What about all the talk about social justice? Are these officials not entitled to social justice?

Mr. Little

I do not think it could be said that, they are paid an unjust wage. I should very much like to be able to do a great deal more for them, but there again we must have regard to the calls on the public purse.

Mr. Larkin

There is £180,000 to play with.

Mr. Allen

Plenty of owners of private property are also affected.

Mr. Larkin

I did not refer to the Deputy's crowd. The payment some people got used to be 8/- per week.

Mr. Little

Deputy O'Donovan dealt with the Clonakilty-Rosscarbery mail service. Tenders for that service were invited in June and a suitable contractor was not forthcoming at reasonable cost. The existing alternative arrangements for service via Skibbereen were the best that could be adopted in the circumstances. While morning delivery at Rosscarbery is now about one and a half hours later than formerly the afternoon dispatch at 2.30 p.m. is maintained and an additional dispatch to Skibbereen at 8.50 p.m. has been provided. The latter dispatch secures connection with the 8 a.m. train to Skibbereen next morning. If there are in fact any disadvantages arising out of a later morning delivery the additional evening dispatch should compensate for them. I may state that if a contract could be arranged on reasonable terms I am quite willing to restore the mail car service to and from Clonakilty, but in such event the evening dispatch to Skibbereen now afforded would necessarily cease. The Deputy referred to the Christmas traffic for dispatch of fowl. There is no difficulty about inwards parcels at Rosscarbery. They are conveyed by bus from Skibbereen. As regards outgoing traffic, if the cyclist postman from Clonakilty cannot carry the parcels they are dispatched by the evening bus. During the Christmas period that traffic in fowl is probably abnormally heavy and the Department would in the ordinary course make special arrangements for that traffic to go by car to Clonakilty. These questions have been raised by Deputies on all sides.

Mr. O'Donovan

Surely the Minister does not consider it right that fowl, which are perishable foods, should be held over night in Skibbereen and then dispatched next morning?

Mr. Little

As the Deputy knows, that question has been under constant consideration. Deputy Larkin mentioned that he knew where a good deal of wire could be secured. If the Deputy would let us into the secret of where the wire is we will be glad.

Mr. Larkin

Read your evening paper. It is being advertised for sale every day.

Mr. Little

We shall look into it. With regard to kiosks, it is unfortunate that they are damaged from time to time, but when we get word that any kiosk has been damaged, we set about getting it mended as soon as possible. There is a certain amount of vandalism going on. I may say that we propose to establish an automatic cut-out in respect of those conversations to which the Deputy referred. It will be put into operation, and it will mean that these conversations will be cut out after six minutes, so that the Deputy will get his turn. Deputy Byrne raised a question as to increasing pensions. The increasing of pensions is, of course, not a matter for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, but for the Department of Finance, which deals with all these questions of pensions.

Deputy Hughes referred to the seconding of officers to other Departments. That has arisen out of the emergency. Farmers are not usually the people who ask us to spend more money upon officials, and I think it will appeal to Deputy Hughes to learn that it is in the interests of economy that officers have been seconded to other Departments. So long as the emergency remains, I am afraid that arrangement will have to continue. It is not at all satisfactory from a Departmental point of view, because we have lost some of our very valuable officers. We are, however, looking forward to the time when we shall get them back, but, while the emergency lasts, we have to be satisfied with the arrangement.

Deputy Larkin referred to the installation of party wires in rural districts. That was tried, but apparently people in this country so object to anybody else overhearing their conversations that it was a complete failure. Nobody would take it up.

Mr. O'Donovan

When was the system tried?

Mr. Little

It was tried at one period, and I remember a Deputy here saying that he had derived considerable enjoyment out of listening in when somebody else was talking.

Mr. Larkin

If a person wanted to telephone for a doctor, there would not be much amusement for others in it.

Mr. Little

With regard to the parcels which were held up within the past few weeks and about which there was considerable complaint, we had complaints from Deputies of all Parties in that connection. Deputy Liam Cosgrave particularly referred to it to-day. These parcels have since been returned to the senders, but the prohibitions against the export of the particular parcels which were held up have been in force for a long time, so that it was on their own responsibility that these people sent these parcels.

Mr. L. Cosgrave

The authorities in the Dun Laoghaire Post Office did not know of the Orders. These people were informed two days after the parcels were posted, and, while the goods were returned, the people concerned were at the loss of the registration fee, and, of course, the goods, being perishable, were useless by the time these people got them back.

Mr. Little

The Orders were actually in force, but we, of course, are merely acting as agents in the matter. We are now putting up notices which will contain a full list of all the goods prohibited.

Mr. Larkin

Could you not have broadcast the announcement?

Mr. Little

We shall have that on the Broadcasting Estimate.

Mr. Larkin

Hundredweights of perishable stuff were seized when I was coming across myself.

Mr. L. Cosgrave

For whom does the Department act as agent?

Mr. Little

The Department of Supplies.

Mr. L. Cosgrave

You are very inefficient agents.

Mr. Little

We simply stop the parcels on their behalf. That Department has already told the public what are the goods which they cannot send out without a licence. Reference was also made to kiosks in the Kimmage and Crumlin areas. The same answer applies to that matter. If we can be warned as quickly as possible when vandalism takes place, we would try to have the kiosks repaired, but I suppose it will require a considerable amount of education before vandalism of this kind can be checked. This is an Estimate on which many details are raised and if there are any matters with which I have omitted to deal, the points will be on the record and we shall have them examined.

Mr. Larkin

The Minister did not deal with the question of aviation transportation. I want to congratulate the Minister because he seems to have entered into the mind of every Deputy and to have had the answers to their points set out beforehand. I do not think, however, that these answers are answers which we welcome. I think the Minister should have taken time to consider the points. It is all very well for his permanent secretary to tell him these things, but the opinions expressed are those of the permanent secretary, and not the Minister's. I suggest that the Minister should have many of these matters reconsidered.

Mr. Little

With regard to aviation transportation, the biggest difficulty in the way of a complete organisation of a service of that kind is that it would cost a very considerable amount of money, and, besides, the shortage of petrol would prevent our operating it.

Mr. Larkin

Another point is that other Ministers have given the equivalent of the value of clothing. Why cannot the Minister act similarly in respect of these people?

Question put and agreed to.