Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 9 Nov 1943

Vol. 91 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 62—Wireless Broadcasting.

Mr. Little

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £26,280 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1944, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí eile i dtaobh Fóirleatha Nea-Shreangaigh (Uimh. 45 de 1926).

That a sum, not exceeding £26,280, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1944, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926).

The Estimate for the Broadcasting Service for the current financial year, 1943-44, amounts to £78,880, a net increase of £8,773 on the provision for last year. The main increase is under sub-head A and amounts to £6,725. This is due principally to the additional cost of the orchestra, for the augmentation of which I have already secured the authority of the Dáil in connection with the Supplementary Broadcasting Estimate presented on 26th November last; also to the filling of the directorship; to staff incremental increases; to provision for increased bonus and for an additional week's wages (53 pay days in the current year); etc. There is an increase of £2,388 under sub-head B, due almost wholly to extra provision for artists' fees, establishment of a radio choir, etc.

Sub-head E shows a decrease of £230 due to economies in power consumption, called for by emergency conditions. There is a decrease of £240 under sub-head F, the result of the curtailment of maintenance and renewal works by reason of difficulties in obtaining replacement stores. The variations under the other sub-heads are of a minor character not calling for comment.

Revenue from wireless licences in the financial year ended 31st March last amounted to approximately £106,000, and from advertisements, etc. to approximately £2,500, a total of £108,500. This represents a decrease of about £2,900 on the revenue for the previous year caused by a drop in the number of licences held by listeners.

The total number of licences on 31st March last was 167,671, a decrease of 6,879 on the figures for the corresponding date in 1942. The current figure is 168,236. Although the decrease in the number of licences is to be regretted, it is not altogether surprising considering the general circumstances of the times. In this connection I am glad to be able to report that many persons whose sets had been inoperable through inability to obtain batteries have responded to the advice which I gave last year that they should arrange for storage of their sets with wireless dealers or traders or other licence holders while the battery difficulty continues. The arrangement has been mutually advantageous: it has relieved the owners of inoperable sets of all liability in regard to the taking out of licences and it has obviated the necessity for legal proceedings by the Department against defaulters. I anticipate that revenue during the current year is not likely to. exceed a total of £104,700. The estimated total expenditure in the current year, including expenditure by other Departments on services rendered to broadcasting amounts to £109,295. The estimated deficit is, of course, the result of the fall in licences, the additional outlay in the augmented orchestra and on the provision for artists' fees, etc., the circumstances in relation to which I explained broadly when submitting the Supplementary Estimate in November last. Further, we take no credit in our receipts for services rendered to other Government Departments.

The station orchestra has been increased from 28 to 40. Some little time may elapse before the full advantage of this increase will be felt, but since the augmentation there has been a noticeable improvement in the range, as well as in the quality of the musical programmes performed.

The radio choir to which I have already referred was selected early this year. It consists of 24 members and remuneration is on an engagement basis. Its first broadcast was given in June last under the baton of Sir Hugh Roberton, the well-known conductor of the Glasgow Orpheus Choir, to whom we are under a deep debt of gratitude for advice and co-operation in selecting the choir, in giving it its first training and in many other ways. At present the choir is being used in programmes of miscellaneous part-songs, but after a time when it has had more experience and practice in functioning as a unit it is intended to use it for the production of operas, choral and orchestral works and other special performances.

During the year the policy of giving; in public, fortnightly symphony concerts with the Radio Eireann orchestra, augmented by players from outside the station, was continued with noteworthy success. In the period from October to March ten such concerts were given in the Mansion House, Dublin, and in April the final concert of the 1942-43 season was given in the Gaiety Theatre. The concerts in the Mansion House were packed to capacity and the demand for tickets for the final concert in the Gaiety Theatre was so great that it was found necessary to arrange for a repeat performance in the Mansion House on the following night. The success attending these concerts, which in the first instance were undertaken with some trepidation, was most gratifying and points to a keen public interest in good music.

As Deputies are probably aware, the accommodation in the Mansion House was inadequate for the large audiences desiring to attend these concerts, and we decided to procure accommodation elsewhere. Our concerts are, therefore, being given during the current season on Sunday afternoons in the Capitol Theatre which is capable of housing close on 2,000. The two concerts already held show that the public interest is definitely being maintained—there was not, in fact, sufficient accommodation for all who desired to attend the first concert of the season. In this connection, I feel that a special word of praise is due to the orchestra for its hard work during the year. I do not wish to single out any one section for mention. There has been a notable improvement in all sections, and to their efforts largely—and to the efforts of the conductor—are due the entertainment and education made available to the general public through these symphony concerts.

In order to develop the art of music in this country, it is not sufficient merely to give a lead in Dublin, the capital city, and expect the country will follow. The country clearly should make its own effort. If it does not do so, there can be no sound indication of the general direction of the Irish musical genius, and decisions as to policy in regard to programme building, must, as a result, be arbitrary and therefore liable to error in the long run. Music making in the country is of as great importance as music making in Dublin, especially where the need is so pressing for the expansion of cultural activities.

With this in mind, a policy has been developed of encouraging musical organisations in places outside Dublin to arrange series of concerts of good music, and employ the best artists available in the country. Radio Eireann agreed to relay a portion of each of these concerts at a specially increased fee. As a result, concerts were given by the Waterford Music Club, the University Graduates' Club, Cork, the Sligo Operatic Society, the Limerick Music Club, the Wexford Theatre Guild, and in Galway. Also, in collaboration with Radio Eireann, the Keating Branch of the Gaelic League organised two choral and instrumental concerts in the Gresham Hotel, Dublin.

In the studio were given series of informative and educational programmes. All the orchestral instruments were featured in a series in which the history of the evolution of each instrument was given, together with a short recital showing its capabilities and an indication of its place in the orchestra. During the winter of 1942-43, and again recently, we had a series of choral broadcasts by the Glasgow Orpheus Choir. The choir was under its conductor, Sir Hugh Roberton, who gave a short lecture with each recital. Several broadcasts were devoted to the work of Bunting in collecting and noting our traditional airs, and a special series is again being devoted to his life work in this, his centenary year. Fifteen lectures, illustrated by the Radio Eireann Orchestra, and by gramophone records, were given on the appreciation of good music. These were directed especially to children.

All the best writers of Lieder were represented by series of programmes and several broadcasts were devoted to those songs of Thomas Moore which have been somewhat neglected in recent years.

During the year the Dublin Operatic Society and the Dublin Grand Opera Society were assisted by members of the Radio Eireann Orchestra and selected items from their productions were broadcast. Other musical organisations whose performances were broadcast include the Musical Art Society, the Dublin String Orchestra, the Dublin Orchestral Players, and the University Arts Society, Cork, the Cork Municipal School of Music Choir and Orchestra, the Newry Light Orchestra, etc.

Due prominence in the programme was given to broadcasts of Irish traditional music. The broadcasts were on much the same lines as the previous year, namely, programmes of dance music by selected ceilidhe bands, monthly broadcasts of pipe bands, and various other programmes devoted exclusively to the singing and playing of Irish airs. The principal difficulty in the preparation of these programmes continues to be the dearth of suitable material—new compositions, new arrangements, published music, etc. We propose to improve this position somewhat in the present year by utilising the grant of money now available to commission the composition of pieces of music and the arrangement of Irish airs for dance programmes and for special features. But this improvement, if it is to be sound, must be slow, because we must be careful that the work selected for performance in the Station shall be a good example to others.

In the matter of recruitment of new talent it had been found, over a long period, that a great deal of time was spent in giving auditions to singers and instrumentalists whose standard of performance was much below any acceptable standard. It was decided, therefore, to require applicants for audition to furnish a recommendation from a teacher of music; in other words, to produce some evidence of training. It is hoped that this will enable us to limit auditions to those who are likely to produce suitable programme material, and also that the new policy in the matter of auditions will have the effect of bringing it home to aspirants to a musical reputation that talent by itself is not enough, but that assiduous study is necessary if the artist is to reach the level of performance which a nation-wide audience is entitled to expect. It is feared that hitherto many young artists have been inclined to look for assistance to the Broadcasting Station during the early stages of their careers, and to seek engagements with the object of applying the fees to tuition expenses or for the sake of the advertisement. Occasionally, too, societies, choral and other, look to the Broadcasting Station for engagements in order to keep the members together. While broadcasting is most anxious to give all possible assistance to every musical activity in the country, I would like to press the point that our cultural reputation is judged by what we radiate and that the only sound reason for seeking to broadcast is the feeling that the broadcaster has something good and worthy of inclusion in a national programme.

Broadcast talks and discussions covered all aspects of the national life and literature. In the course of the year we brought to the microphone scholars, writers, actors, journalists, clerics, sportsmen, globe-trotters, doctors, lawyers, agriculturists—in short, some out of every class of Irish men and visitors to Ireland.

As one of the many and varied activities of the talks department in 1942-43, fresh efforts were made to make the best use of broadcasting in connection with the national agricultural effort. In collaboration with the Department of Agriculture there was broadcast an interesting series of talks by experts in the various branches of agriculture. Talks of a similar nature have been resumed in the current season.

As to programmes in Irish, the guiding principle in the broadcasting of Irish is that it should proceed as if Irish were the vernacular of the whole country. In practice, this means that anything of interest to Irish people, whether it is or is not normally spoken of or written about in Irish, should be considered proper material for the programmes. The subjects thus ranged from the national movement and personal reminiscences of great nationalists to first-aid, travel, Irish scientists, books of the revival, orchestral music and local history.

Those who are not strong in Irish will find some of the programmes between the hours of 6 and 6.40 p.m. for young people very helpful—notably "Question Time" and a feature of which the English title would be "At Home and Abroad". We contemplate broadcasting in the near future a series of stories in simple Irish which will, it is hoped, be of some help to learners, or to those who have been getting out of touch with the language and wish to brush up their knowledge.

So far as propaganda for Irish is concerned, every opportunity is given and will be given to leaders of the various movements—Gaelic League, Dáil Uladh, Oireachtas, etc., to broadcast to the people in Irish or in English. We are hoping that it may be possible at an early date to broadcast in English a short series of talks on language movements in other countries where there is or was a two-language problem, but of course there is no country with a position exactly similar to ours. We also hope, as soon as suitable arrangements can be made, to devote about five minutes daily to the broadcast in English of excerpts from writings and speeches of importance dealing with the language question. This will be in the nature of an experiment to be reviewed after a period of a few months.

Radio plays and dramatisations occupied 139 hours of programme time in 1942. These were mainly station productions written specially for radio. The presentation by the Abbey Players and the Longford Players of plays which had been successful on the stage created unusual interest among listeners and evoked much praise, especially in the case of country listeners who live at such distances from the cities that they have not the opportunity of seeing these plays in the theatre.

The position with regard to variety programmes remains much as it was. We cannot disguise the fact that there is no considerable body of professional variety talent in this country and that what is available to the broadcasting service is merely a small amount of very mixed talent, mostly amateur, and generally below the desirable standard of merit. Our only hope of improvement in this branch of the programmes lies in the development of a distinctively Irish brand of variety entertainment and no amount of money can force the pace of such development. Every effort is made, of course, to encourage the talent that is available and to direct it along lines which, we feel, will make for its improvement.

There is from time to time an amount of criticism in the newspapers of wireless programmes and of the broadcasting service. The criticism has been, for the most part, of the kind which is usually produced by loose thinking, or which comes from people who are not regular listeners and are therefore not well informed. Criticism of this sort is of no help to anybody and is more likely to confuse and mislead the public than to help them to form reasonable judgments. Constructive criticism and suggestions from people who listen to the programmes and know what has been and is being broadcast is always welcome and is, in fact, of great assistance to those who have to build them. It will always be difficult to gauge with any accuracy the extent to which listeners approve and disapprove. While every item has its quota of listeners, it very rarely happens that a producer succeeds in pleasing everybody, if such an achievement is possible at all. It is for this reason that we have appealed from time to time to listeners to try to listen only to the broadcasts they think they will like and to regard the others as being meant for other listeners, whose tastes differ from their own. A marked contrast exists between city and country—and, of course, we must appeal to all. Broadcasting, of course, has the widest and most mixed audience and it is not surprising, therefore, that programmes which are to stand any chance of a favourable reception must be of a varied character containing, as far as possible, items which will appeal to each different taste. The problem of the programme-planner is to keep this fact in mind and, at the same time, to see to it that his programmes keep up to a certain intellectual level and contain all the ingredients which are desirable in a great national undertaking.

It remains for me finally to remind our critics of one very important consideration, namely, that there must necessarily be a definite policy covering the work of the station, and that we must always remember the responsibility of those in charge to ensure a high standard of entertainment, which will not be overridden by influences which are foreign to sound public taste. Whilst a wide variety of tastes must be allowed for, at the same time those responsible must bear in mind that national broadcasting involves heavy expenditure, and that no time must be wasted on what is silly, trivial, or degrading. A national station is on the air for the world to criticise, and Irish culture will be judged by its output. I have much more faith in the possibility of fostering a really all-round good taste in public entertainment than many of our critics.

Mr. W.T. Cosgrave

Will the Minister tell the House whether or not he has had under examination the present wave-length that we have here, and whether or not it is a satisfactory one; and, if not, whether there is a possibility of its being altered? Secondly, will he tell the House whether or not the present site of the broadcasting station is the most suitable one? I am taking it from the statement he has read out to us that there is a certain vested interest growing up in the broadcasting station, and that possibly there would be an objection to leaving it for some other premises. The information that is available to me— and the opinion has been expressed to me by many people—is that it is an unsuitable site, and that, in consequence, the programmes from it have not as good a sound, and consequently are not capable of as good reception as they would be if we were on a better wave-length or if the station were in a better position. I would like an assurance from the Minister with regard to the selection of the musicians that he has referred to, that it has been done by experts, without favour, and that the best musicians available have been appointed.

From the concluding portion of the Minister's remarks one would gather that he has a very exalted opinion of his own conception of Irish culture. He has not given the people of this country very many harp recitals during the year. I referred to that matter in the case of his predecessor some years ago. We were promised more but, after a short time, we had, I should say, perhaps less than formerly. The Minister has referred to the qualities of the programmes. I hope the quality is good. I do not pose as an expert but it does strike me that some of the other programmes that one hears may be a little better.

With regard to announcers, I have not heard, I think, a single announcer here of whom one could say that he had an Irish voice. If you take Dublin as an example, Dublin has no accent of its own. The Dublin accent is a mixture of two or more of the accents of the entire 32 counties. Dublin has no distinctive accent. There is an accent peculiar to Galway, Clare, Kerry and Cork. There is, perhaps, less character in the accent peculiar to the Minister's own constituency than there is in the accent of any other counties to which I have referred. It also has a certain conglomerate quality. There is not the same musical quality or character about that accent as there is about the others, and I have never heard a single one of the broadcasting announcers with one of those voices to which I have referred. Is it possible that there is not a single announcer to be found in County Galway, County Kerry, or County Cork, with a voice which could be recognised as a distinctively Irish voice?

Finally, I should like to say with regard to the general national outlook of the features presented over our national broadcasting system that it appears to me that our programmes seem, rather, to be looking backward than forward. It appears to me that there is something of the attitude of the submerged tenth—a kind of inferiority complex—so far as our wireless broadcasting is concerned. I believe that we ought to be looking forward rather than backward, and that, instead of stressing the mistakes that may have been made in the past, we ought to look towards the future and try to educate our people into having a real national feeling that we ought to be proud of our history instead of being ashamed of it.

Mr. O'Donnell

I would agree with 100 per cent. of Deputy Cosgrave's remarks. The question of accents has always appeared to me to be debatable. Dublin, Cork, and many other counties claim to speak the best English. I claim that Tipperary speaks the best English. As a matter of fact, I have not heard one really Irish accent over Radio Éireann, bar one— who came in last year—and I understand he was a Limerick man. Of course, I know that people from Aberdeen and other parts of Scotland, as well as certain parts of England, claim to use the best English accent, but I still maintain that we, in Tipperary, can claim to speak the best English and with the best accent. I lived here in Dublin for many years, during which I met people from all over the country, and it was my experience that the Tipperary accent was most easily understood. Of course, I quite understand that certain people, in County Cork, let us say, can afford to send their sons to Oxford or other English colleges and universities and that, when these young men come home, it would be very hard to understand what they are saying. Naturally, that would apply to other counties also, but in my view the Irish blás, as we call it in Tipperary—Anglicised—is conspicuous by its absence so far as many of the speakers over Radio Éireann are concerned.

I should like to make a few suggestions to the Minister in this connection. I congratulate him on the appointment of Mr. Brennan as Director of Radio Eireann. Mr. Brennan is a good friend of mine, and was one of the best Gaelic footballers and step-dancers that ever appeared in this country. He is not a member of this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

He is not in the House.

Mr. O'Donnell

No, Sir, but I suggest to the Minister that an examination ought to be held at intervals, in connection with the selection of announcers over Radio Éireann for Gaelic games, and that half a dozen of the best speakers should be selected in sequence—candidates being invited to compete from all over Ireland. Undoubtedly, the principal Gaelic games are well announced over Radio Éireann, but I would impress on the Minister the urgent necessity of getting those who participated in past All-Ireland hurling or football finals to broadcast while it is yet possible to find such a player—even going back as far as 1887. Even gramophone records of these early All-Ireland finals would be invaluable, if they could be procured.

I would suggest to the Minister that a very interesting feature would be a broadcast of the All-Ireland hurling and football finals from 1887 to 1943— 55 hurling finals and 55 football finals —all of which are completed except the final of 1888, which was left unfinished owing to the Gaelic invasion of America in that year, and which lay between Tipperary and Kilkenny in both hurling and football.

There is a possibility of a player from each winning team coming forth to broadcast. Only within the past year, the captain of the 1889 All-Ireland football champions, Mr. Gil. Kavanagh, of far-famed Bohercrowe, Tipperary, died. I was speaking to him a few days before his death—I hope that it did not hasten his death —with regard to this matter of a weekly broadcast by members of former winning teams in All-Ireland hurling and football games, and we felt that the programme could be got over in, approximately, one year. What a treat that would be for Ireland at home as well as for the Gaels the world over, and I think that my native county, Tipperary, with 12 hurling and four football championships, would be close to the top. I think we could supply a player from each team, even back to the first winners: Thurles, Tipperary in 1887.

Our games are not foreign. They are neither Saxon nor Italian, but kindly Irish of the Irish—hurling being the world's greatest game, and Gaelic football a good second. Out of the 55 All-Ireland champion football teams, we can supply two speakers from the House, namely, Deputy Donnellan, who captained the Galway team to win, two All-Ireland finals, and Deputy Spring—who, I am sorry to see, is not here at the moment—who captained the Kerry team in one All-Ireland final. We have our Director of Radio Éireann, who holds All-Ireland medals for Dublin, and whose voice we would all like to hear on the air. I think that, in asking for the services of any of these people, they would only regard it as a labour of love.

Now, that accounts for five finals in football out of 55, so I think I have given you the nucleus of a programme. To come back again to this question of accents, as I said before, it appears to me that the Tipperary people have the best accent, but it also appears to me that a good deal of the Oxfordised-Rathmines Haw-haw accent has been introduced here in recent years. Now, I do not know whether some people may think that their accent might be improved by crossing the Channel, but I would like to urge on the Minister that the native accent should be preserved and that, wherever gramophone records exist of statements made by former players on the old championship teams, these records should be preserved for future use on Radio Éireann.

Sir John Esmonde

The Estimate we are discussing at the moment is not concerned with a very large amount of money, as compared with other Estimates, but it is a very important one because it is dealing with what, I submit, is a most important service. Now, while I have not very much complaint to make with regard to the manner in which broadcasts are made, I do think that the scope of our programmes is not broad enough. I have mentioned this on previous occasions. In all countries except our own it would seem that wireless broadcasting is regarded as being necessary for certain purposes. In other countries it is regarded as being necessary for the purpose of introducing three features: first of all, propaganda; secondly, information; and, thirdly, enjoyment or recreation.

Now, in connection with our wireless service in this country, there seems to be, first of all, a complete absence of propaganda with regard to this country. Every other country in the world—I do not care whether belligerent or neutral in this war—is using its wireless service for the purpose of advertising itself. In the new world it is hoped to create, whatever kind of world it will be, if we remain silent, if we do not put our wares on the table or do not put forward our point of view, we are going to be entirely forgotten. I do not think that our broadcasts ever reach the ears of any listener in this world outside persons who understand English or Irish. We do not have, as I submit we should have, regular broadcasts to countries abroad in their different languages.

Perhaps it is not quite within the sphere of this discussion to mention the political aspect of such broadcasts. Year after year, I have emphasised the necessity for putting before the public opinion of the world the great grievance that exists in this country with regard to Partition. I have repeated it so often that I shall not dwell on it now, but I do say that there is an equally important matter to which our broadcasting service might be devoted, that is, that it should act as a sort of stationary commercial agent for the purpose of letting the peoples of the world know the goods which we have to sell or which we shall have to sell and the trade in which we can engage. Every other country does that, but for some reason we do not; I do not know why. Our broadcasting service is kept for the sole purpose, as far as I can see, of a little Government propaganda or else for the purpose of entertainment. I do not think I need elaborate on the necessity for some propaganda, for political or trade purposes.

Again, our station is closed down for many hours during the day. I do not think that is right. We would not take up the time which is now devoted to broadcasting for entertainment if the service were used for propaganda purposes during the period at which the station is now closed. I think this time might be utilised to tell other countries in French, German, Spanish and other languages that we have a country, that we have a life of our own, so that they will know something about us and that we shall not be forgotten in the years to come.

Another purpose for which broadcasting might be used more extensively is the dissemination of information. We are turning out laws in this country at the rate of two or three a day, sometimes more. You go to bed at night and you find when you wake up in the morning that if you do something that you did the day before, you will be breaking some law that has been passed overnight. I think the broadcasting service should be used for the purpose of informing people of the-vital changes in the law that take place almost every day as a result of decrees under the Emergency Powers Act. It is difficult enough for lawyers to understand these changes, in fact it is almost impossible to keep track of them in the mass of literature in which such laws are contained, but for ordinary lay people it is a hopeless task. Generally speaking, the public should be put on notice of these laws as they are issued. The laws should be explained in simple language over the wireless as they are issued, and the people should be told how they affect their lives and businesses in different ways.

I turn now to the question of entertainment. I should like to congratulate the Minister on the fact that, as I think, there has been a distinct improvement from year to year under his guidance in the entertainment given, but I quarrel with the Minister on the fact that we hear all too often: "Radio Éireann is now closing down until to-morrow." I often feel like shouting out on such occasions, particularly on Sunday afternoons: "Why close down?" The whole cry at present is to draw our people back to the land, to make life on the land pleasant and endurable for those who think it is not and who want to leave the land. There are long periods during the day at present when we get no entertainment from our own station. It is particularly difficult at present to get many other stations as a result of the jamming that goes on, sometimes accidental but often deliberate, as a result of the war situation. Therefore, as I say, when I hear the announcement: "Radio Éireann is now closing down," I feel like asking: "Why?" Wireless broadcasting from the point of view of entertainment is much more necessary for the people living in remote country districts than for people living in cities and towns. It can exercise a very big influence on the lives of people in the country, and I think the longer our station is kept open the better for these people. Why should the system be that there is just a programme between 6.30 and 10.30 and at no other time? Why should the country people be regimented into seeking their amusement over the air just at any time the station selects? Now that there is a little money to spare on the operation of this service, I think it might be usefully expended on giving more employment in the station to artists and others so that the station might be kept open for a longer period.

Before concluding, I have one complaint of a local nature to make and I think that every Wexford Deputy will agree with me. Deputy Cosgrave touched on the question of a change of wave-length and I certainly think there is something wrong with our present wave-length, so far as County Wexford is concerned. Near the town of Gorey where I live—I am sure Deputy Alien has the same experience—I cannot hear the Irish news because of interference. It is getting worse every day. There seems to be some sort of jamming going on. I do not know whether I am using the correct technical term but even here in Dublin it can be heard to a lesser extent.

In Wexford, however, one has frequently to turn away from the Irish station because one cannot hear the broadcast. I should like to say in fairness to the Minister that when a person in very humble circumstances in my district made a complaint about the jamming, within what I considered a very reasonable time an investigator called on that person for the purpose of inquiring into the matter. Eventually the man got in touch with me and I had an interview with him. He explained his difficulties and, so far as I could gather as a result of my conversation with him, there is no remedy in the view of the officials concerned. I suppose it is as a result of the war, but unless there is a great change made in the wave-length to cut out the disturbance, I and most of my constituents will be unable to hear the Irish programme, particularly the news.

Mr. McCann

In successive years I have offered the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs criticism which I think he should accept. He has asked for constructive criticism, and, in each year, I have said to the Minister: "If you pay for the best, you will get the best." There is no use in our trying to fool ourselves, despite the fact that the Minister comes in with a fine tone throughout his Estimate. We know that wireless broadcasting has not advanced very much here since its introduction in 1926. I have had intimate association with the station since that year. I was one of the first writers for the microphone in this country. I appeared in the old station in Denmark Street, and I know that the conditions of broadcasting here have not changed very much. The reason for that is, as I have said elsewhere, that a parsimonious policy has left Radio Éireann little better than an amateur concert hall. That is the truth.

The Minister has done a very good job, indeed, in giving us a first-rate orchestra, and I think we cannot shower sufficient praise on him for that. However, I wonder if any member of this House considers £5 a week sufficient for a first-rate male performer in an orchestra, or £4 for a lady performer. I do not think so, and I think that that is one of the first things the Minister should look into. He should see that the orchestra— which is good and is composed of the best musicians we can get—is paid commensurate with its ability. I am sorry, however, that the orchestra was not composed solely of Irish nationals. While the Minister is to be congratulated on giving us a first-rate orchestra, I cannot see that he is to be congratulated on any other aspect of Radio Éireann. The same position applies to musicians, vocalists, playwrights and actors—the fees have not improved in any respect.

The Minister talks about a dearth of talent and about the discovery of new talent. This country is literally teeming with artistic ability, but Radio Éireann does not seek it out. There are competent singers, actors and musicians, but if they want to broadcast here they have to go with cap in hand, so to speak. The Director and the Minister know this as well as I do. There is a panel of people who have broadcast from time to time since the inception of the service, but the fees that they are paid are most unattractive. What is the use of talking about the encouragement of new talent, when we do not pay the good talent that we have already?

So far as play production is concerned, I think that practically all plays from the station suffer from hasty production and bad acting. I have suggested in the past to the Minister that there should be at Radio Éireann a proper repertory company and not what is there at present. Practically every aspect of Radio Éireann at present is a sort of hobby for people who have good jobs or other occupations, while there is no place for the whole-time professional, whose engagement I would encourage to make our station first-rate and comparable with any other station in England or on the Continent. Plays suffer from bad acting, because of the pursuance of a system that existed there—and still exists, to a certain extent—of giving a producer—and an amateur producer, at that—a certain figure to produce a play for an hour. He gets £8, say, and has to pay the actors out of it. It is the most natural thing on earth for the producer to try to get as much as possible for himself. I know Abbey actors who have played in Radio Éireann for as low as 10/6 and 15/-. I do not think that is good enough. A repertory company should be formed there and the members should be given a minimum weekly wage or a monthly contract. I suggest, also, that a professional producer be engaged: if a man can be got who knows both Irish and English, well and good; if not, there should be a producer for the Irish language and one for the English language.

So far as auditions are concerned, for new actors coming on, I may say there are many actors here, well known to the Director and to the Minister, and it is a very simple matter to get in touch with them. If we cannot employ a repertory company, a panel of actors should be formed, such as existed in the Belfast B.B.C. Station. The minimum rate there for a man who went on for the first time in his first play was £2 10s. 0d. I know that as a fact. In regard to the programmes, I have always criticised them on the ground that we are not paying for the best and so cannot expect the best. The Minister may say, in reply, that he has not got the money, although he is in perfect sympathy with W.A.A.M.A.

It has been mentioned here that Radio Éireann should not be altogether a profit-making institution, that it should not be sending large amounts into the Central Exchequer year after year. It will not do so this year, I am told, though I did not get the figure rightly when the Minister was reading it. The Appropriation Accounts show that the amount transferred from Radio Eireann into the Central Fund in 1938-39 was £49,179 15s. 5d.; in 1939-40, £55,679 7s. 9d.: in 1940-41, £62,352 8s. 8d., and in 1941-42, £50,074 15s. 6d. That shows an average profit of, roughly, £50,000 per year for those four years. Surely, some of that money should have been sent back to improve the broadcasting service of the country? After all, broadcasting is a very important thing. I think it can do an immense amount of good within the country, and, as Deputy Sir John Esmonde said, it can have a very vital influence on our relations with outside countries.

Of the money which comes in from wireless licence fees, a certain amount —a miserable amount—is spent on daily programmes. The increase in the figure for the cost of daily programmes for the current year—£2,388—only means £1 an hour, when you work it out. What can you do with that? The Minister said that the majority of that is going in connection with the new radio choir, so what hope is there for the vocalists, the musicians, the authors or the actors?

I felt this year that I would not say anything at all on this Estimate. For the last four or five years I have bean speaking here, interviewing the Minister with representatives of W.A.A.M.A. and putting our case before him. We get very sympathetic consideration, but sympathetic consideration is of very little use to people who have to work really hard. There is the conception in this country and elsewhere that writers, actors and musicians are not workers, in the same sense as other workers. I hold that they are. They work very hard indeed, and they are not given remuneration commensurate with their ability; they are not paid anything like a living wage for their work by Radio Éireann.

So far as a dearth of variety talent is concerned, I may not be very fond of variety, but I think the best answer to that is that the cine-theatrical managers of Dublin have found, during the emergency period, that there is very good variety talent in this country. They are very glad to have that variety talent, and they have never done better box-office business than since this war broke out. If the Minister or the Director of Radio Éireann want to look for variety talent, they will get it. In the course of social functions here, we have all heard excellent singers and musicians; everywhere we go through the city and the county we hear excellent performers. They never get a chance in Radio Éireann.

It has been stressed here by Deputies that country performers very seldom get a chance on Radio Éireann. They are offered a miserable fee of £1 or £2 for performing and out of that they are expected to pay their hotel bills and travelling expenses. Of course, the amount they receive would never cover such expenses. The Minister should bring this matter to the notice of the Government and give them some idea of what has been happening in the matter of wireless broadcasting. It seems to me that wireless broadcasting assumes an importance on one day in the year, and that is the day when the Estimate is presented to the House.

Mr. Larkin

What about the day before the election?

Mr. McCann

I do not know what the Deputy means. In previous years I have made a case for the poorly-paid writers, actors and musicians. I will continue to put their case forward until some effort at improvement is made.

Mr. Larkin

I am glad to follow Deputy McCann in this debate. This is an issue in which I wish to join with him. I think it is the most blackguardly machinery I have ever had to deal with. At one time I was engaged as an artiste on the radio and I was paid what I demanded. It is a bit better than it was. Oh, what a dark little passage it was to get into that inner sanctum, and how they all gathered together to protect themselves! A little light has been thrown into that dark box, into the shelter.

What a joke it is to think that Radio Éireann is the expression of the national consciousness, and the spiritual ebullitions of this country! Outside the few people who get their living by it, and the political organisation that uses it, what is the opinion of the world? Go into any country in Europe, and they look on Radio Éireann simply as a joke. Go to adjacent countries and it is regarded as a joke—when you can hear it. Go to northern London— there you cannot hear it. You may hear it at Newcastle or Portsmouth, but in Lancashire you cannot get a good Radio Éireann reception.

Talk to people who pretend to know something about the mechanism and they will tell you that there is nothing to equal it on earth and they do not need to learn any more. In every other country in the world radio propaganda is carried on morning, noon and night, and people arc constantly seeking how to develop wireless, how to broaden it, how to improve it generally. Here we are in a little shell; we may emerge in a small way, but we feel it is too cold and back we go again. Surely there are men and women in this country who have some knowledge of this form of communication. What reception do they get from the conservative type of mind at the top? I say that if the machinery we have is not equal to the occasion, scrap it. God knows, it is about time that that machine was scrapped.

When I went there to do a talk, one gentleman got the document, read it, and wanted to strike out a passage. "Strike out nothing," said I. "Either I talk to that script or I do not.""Well," said he, "we cannot do it this way.""That is all right with me," I replied, "I will scrap it for you." Why should some types of men, such as we have in this country in certain censorship departments, endeavour to control the minds of men and women here? Surely, some opportunity should be given to our people to express themselves, to tell the world what they think. They dare not do that in Radio Éireann. There are some people who would lose their immortal souls if that type of thing were allowed. It would not do to have an individual saying something not quite in line with the Department in Merrion Street or the department in that little box. If any man tried to do that, he might be cut off.

No, they will not allow liberty of thought. This is the one country where you cannot think. We know how many persons are lying in jail simply because they wanted to express themselves, simply because they thought. Radio Éireann will take care that you will not do anything unless you conform to their lines. I would not care what a man or woman said, and I would not mind where they came from. If you have ideals that are healthy and clean, surely the other fellow's ideals are not going to alter your mind or your convictions? If you are not big enough to absorb the expressions of thought of the modern world, what kind of person are you? Arc you entitled to live at all? Here you must get in a little box and act under the directions of other people.

Deputy McCann suggests that these great artists we have cannot get an opportunity of expressing themselves. When I see some of these so-called variety artistes, I get a sour feeling in my stomach. I do not know how anyone allows them to get into public life. But there is talent in this country. It is there, but it is not allowed to function. It has to "conform", and any people who "conform" without making a protest are not worth listening to. Unfortunately, that is the type of mind we have to put up with. The radio is the medium of conveying thought, and it should be over and above all that sort of thing.

A friend of mine had a contract on the radio. It was he who introduced what was called buying time. He carried on a rather good programme and introduced good music. Admittedly, it was the best thing done in this country. A certain group of people got into power and they thought it would be a good idea to get a monopoly in this connection. They broke the contract, which was handed to some of their friends. I suppose someone had the idea that a person might buy time and say something that the radio people might not like. Why should we not buy time when there is plenty of idle time every day and night in the week, all through the year? Why cannot our people listen-in to the forms of entertainment they like? Why are they not allowed to know what the world is doing? Oh, no, you must listen to what some little gentleman here thinks you ought to hear.

I am as keen on the question of national culture as any man in the country. If I were able to play football now I suppose I would be playing national football, but why should not the man who plays soccer have the right to put his case over the radio? I do not think there is any game equal to hurling. I have played most games, baseball and every other. I participated in them both inside, and outside of jail. I even played a game of golf once. I cannot understand this narrowness. If people believe in soccer, why should they not be allowed to express their views on it? If you cannot do that over Radio Éireann, then I think the only thing is to get another machine that will enable one to do it. What advantage is there in denying the right to men and women to express their convictions and their culture? If their convictions and culture are better than those of other people, then they are going to predominate. Why deny them the right to convince you that theirs are better than yours? Why all this tribulation of spirit and narrowness of view—narrowness which amounts to this: "If I cannot do what I like then the other fellow will not be allowed to do what he likes."

With regard to the plays that have been given over Radio Éireann, I have noticed a lot of bad diction and bad timing. The people taking part in them should be here in the Dáil. One of the ways, I suggest, of educating our people would be to bring the microphone into the Dáil so that they might get an opportunity of knowing the different types we have here. Deputy O'Donnell said that the only way to get the right atmosphere of Ireland was to get the cultural tones of Tipperary. There are all kinds of tones in this country. My point is that the man in Rathmines or "Rawthmines" may have a better knowledge of sound values than the best man in Tipperary. Because of a certain mechanical arrangement, my voice, for example, may come over the radio as that of a good shouter, but the speech of another man with a weak voice may come over with a clear bell-like sound. No one, of course, could attempt to interfere with the mechanical arrangement of the radio except the engineers.

In every county in Ireland you get different sound values. If I were in a room and heard a number of men speaking, I could tell in a few minutes the county from which each came. As regards sound values, there are difficulties in the matter of terminology and the phraseology used, plus certain other things. The County Down man and the County Antrim man live quite close to one another, and yet there is a difference in their voices. Each expresses the beauty of the life he lives. Is it not a wonderful thing to hear certain people on the continent speaking over the radio? Their voices come over quite clearly, and even though one may not know the Italian language, is it not beautiful to hear it spoken? I know a little Spanish myself, and when I hear a native of that country speaking over the radio I can almost tell the province he comes from. It is the same with the German language. I do not like it, not because of its Government. Is it not wonderful also to hear the Polish and Slav languages over the radio? One can appreciate their beauty, even though one does not understand what is being said. I once listened to a great poet who could not speak English, but the language he used was so beautiful I could understand him. It is the same with the Irish language. It is a pleasure to listen to when you hear a good speaker. Unfortunately, I cannot speak the language myself. My father was Spanish. My sons ought to be Irish speakers. They were educated by Patrick Pearse in one of the best schools in Ireland. It may be due to a lack of intelligence in their father that he cannot speak Irish. I wish to heavens I could speak it. If I could, I would speak it and let some of you know what I think about you.

There is a man in Dublin who is second to none as an Irish speaker. I want to tell the Minister that he is not the man who was given a certain office. In my opinion, he is a better Irish scholar than some people who have been put in high office. I knew Patrick Pearse and Thomas Ashe, both great Irishmen, but the man I speak of— Micheál Ó Maoláin—is one of the best Irish scholars in the country. Deputy McCann talked about people getting £3 a week for their services from Radio Éireann. Micheál Ó Maoláin had £1 a week. I see some people shake their heads at that, but I understand that is all he got. Will anybody who has heard Micheál Ó Maoláin over the radio deny that nothing could be more beautiful to listen to than his Irish speech? Yet he was thrown out, even though he was getting only a miserable £1 a week. He was too Irish for them. I challenge anyone to deny that. Thirty years ago, in an organisation which I belonged to, I engaged him to teach Irish. We always had an Irish teacher in that organisation. I know MacDonagh personally. He is a wonderful man and ought to have control. My objection to all this is that I believe the whole atmosphere of the place is wrong.

The Minister has taken one step forward, and I hope he will go further. I want to congratulate him on the radio orchestra and choir. I think that was a great idea and that both are beautiful to listen to. It is the best thing that has been done in connection with the radio service for a very long time. Deputy McCann mentioned that there was a profit of £50,000. Why should there be a profit when you are not doing the job? Speaking of the orchestra, the members of it should be occupied all the time because any person who is a good musician lives his music all the time. The same applies to the choir. Their services should not be counted merely in the time occupied in giving a performance but should include the periods spent in preparing for these choir performances. It is not the particular half-hour during which these men or women perform that matters, it is the time they have been preparing that matters. It must be remembered that a poet is not made by the couple of lines he writes but must have been living those lines long before they were written. We cannot expect men and women of talent to undertake work of an artistic character unless we provide them with superior comforts. Give them the right to live and command recognition. To offer £5 a week for front rank performers is an insult.

Take instruments like the oboe, the violin or the 'cello, and consider how long those who play them have to devote to mastering them. To offer them £5 a week is an insult. We had two performances by a Belgian quartette in Dublin this week, and I am just wondering what terms they got for their visit. I undertake to say that they got more for a few hours than artists in Dublin would get in a month. What is the good of talking about a sense of dignity if it is not acted up to?

I listened in to some of the musical items that were broadcast from the Dublin station and it was a joy to note the excellence of these performances. Tributes have recently been paid to the work of Sir William Rowan Hamilton. What is being done to popularise the work of that great Dublin composer, Balfe? I was in Germany in 1932 and I found that Balfe's work was well known there. He was recognised as a master in his sphere. Generally speaking, I think the present-Minister has taken a step forward in broadcasting. I want to encourage him, and for that reason I hope he will do better things. No Party in this House will say anything to him for doing so. There should not be any haggling about a few pounds. Money should not go back to the Central Fund. I urge the Minister not to bother about the Central Fund and not to worry if he is brought before the committee that deals with finances. He should tell that committee that he was going to do his work and that in order to do so he would take any steps that he considered proper. I should like to see Radio Eireann better known throughout the world and its programmes recognised, because that would be a tremendous contribution in Ireland's favour. At the present time some of our best scholars and artists are not getting a living here. Why not get them on the air to tell other countries what we are doing here? Some day we will have to sit down at the same table with Russia and to give back some property that was taken, because Russia will be the predominant power in Europe.

I was once arrested in Poland and when taken to the police depôt I told them I was from Ireland. Strange as it may seem, they never heard of Ireland, although Poland is a country with which we have associations. I was personally associated with the revolutionary movement there, yet the police in a Polish city did not know anything about Ireland. They thought we Irish were British. It is the same in other portions of the Continent. When I was in Germany they thought Ireland was part of the British Empire. Some people may think so. I do not. When I was in Norway I was asked why we called ourselves "Irish". When Norway was under Denmark Danish was the official language, but the Norwegians retained their own language. We are the only nation that did not retain our language. We have not lost it, and I believe that the few who retain Irish and speak it will make the rest of our people learn it in the course of years.

Other nations went through the same persecution as we in Ireland went through and did not give in. I hope we will fight to restore the national language. If we are to give expression to the views of our people let us not copy the methods of a second rate empire. Let us have pride in our own country. I urge on the Minister greater use of the radio to strengthen the convictions of our people and to let the world know that the Irish nation is undefeated and indivisible.

Mr. Briscoe

I have been following year by year the programmes in Radio Éireann, and as one who has followed them with a certain amount of critical interest I admit the continued improvement that has taken place. Quality has been improved and there is greater variety. It has been admitted on all sides that the Minister has taken a keen interest in the welfare of the station and that, with the limited means at his disposal and the difficulties with which he has to contend in present circumstances, he has done a tremendous amount of good. In all the circumstances, both he and the staff deserve the congratulations of the House. I have been pressing the Minister to give us more of these programmes. Everybody admits that it is a great pity that Radio Éireann closes down after a very short afternoon programme and again after a short evening programme, but we have been told that financial circumstances preclude longer performances. As a result of questions on the previous Vote it was admitted that the Department acts as an agent for other Departments without remuneration, and I suggest that some arrangement should be made to get payment for such services, which could be used to provide extra broadcasting hours for the public. That seems to be only fair. If in present circumstances a good deal of time has to be given to the broadcasting of information about new Orders arising out of the emergency, the Minister should be able to recover from other Departments credit for services rendered, as the remuneration received could be used to provide extra broadcasting hours for the public and, if possible, extra remuneration for the talent employed by the station.

I notice that on occasions one can hear outside street noises coming through with the programme. There seems to be a defect in the station, as a result of which, when windows are opened, one can hear outside noises. I have often heard boys shouting the late editions of the papers during a programme, and I suggest that the matter be examined from a technical point of view. There may be something in what Deputy Cosgrave suggests, that the station has outlived its usefulness and that the time has arrived when we ought to consider whether we should not get more suitable premises and do more justice to the station's broadcasts. I have already mentioned to the Minister that, in connection with the value of the station from the national point of view, the time has come when the records used for the playing of the National Anthem should be scrapped and the National Anthem played in a much improved manner. I remember being at the Theatre Royal recently when the National Anthem was played in a most inspiring manner. I think that anybody who heard it rendered on that occasion felt, for the first time, really proud of his National Anthem. It was played then with brass instruments, blended with pipes and the organ, and I begged the Minister at the time to go there and hear it, and see whether arrangements could not be made to have a record taken of that rendering of the National Anthem.

I am told that there are some technical difficulties, that a record lasts only for a certain space of time, but from the point of view of the way in which the broadcast of our National Anthem is heard abroad, a great improvement can be made. It is quite true that while the Minister has to have regard, as a general rule, to what listeners at home want to hear, it must also be remembered that our station is listened to abroad. There are difficulties even in Éire in getting good reception of our station, and there are areas abroad where good reception is not obtained, but there are other places abroad where the station is listened to with great interest. When I was in a neighbouring country not so very long ago, I was told by a number of people that the news as given from Radio Éireann is looked forward to with interest by people in that country, because, while they get the news in a perfectly neutral way, they get all the news. That indicates that our station is listened to.

I heard a Deputy suggest that we had not got a proper wave-length, and that the existing wave-length should be changed. Anybody who has studied this matter knows that the wave-length of a radio station has to be agreed on at what is called an international convention. These international conventions are not held now, and I suppose that, in war conditions, other people are broadcasting almost on our wave-length, and consequently anything we may do here will not improve the situation. We might move our wave-length into somebody else's wave-length, and get even worse confusion than we have on occasions in parts of the country. Further, there are a variety of wave-lengths, long, medium, and short, all of which serve different technical purposes.

So far as this country is concerned, I think the Minister and his staff deserve to be highly congratulated on the excellent opportunities we now get for listening to very excellent symphony concerts, and to very beautiful renderings of opera during the season. We have also a choir and a certain amount of variety entertainment, and, generally speaking, the licence holder who pays his 12/6 per year is, in my opinion, getting much better value than he ever got before. I will admit that we are far from being perfect. Many improvements and developments remain to be carried out, but we must remember that in present circumstances it is impossible to get the apparatus to build a new station. We must also remember that in the last four or five years developments have taken place in the radio world, and when we come to instal new or additional plant, we must have regard to those developments.

Before the war broke out, certain developments had taken place in regard to television. One does not know how far it will have developed, and to what extent and how soon it will become available to the general public when the war is over; but I hope that the technical staff is keeping itself well informed of all these developments, and that, side by side with the improvements in relation to programmes, and so on, which the Minister is introducing, when we have an opportunity of getting back in normal times to developing radio services for ourselves, and for the outside world, to the extent of whatever value it might have for this country, we shall take into account the latest developments at the disposal of the world.

I want to put on record that any time I had occasion—and I am sure it is the experience of every Deputy— to write or speak to the Minister in regard to the station, I have always found a willingness to listen and every effort made to try to meet whatever complaints were made. There may be a lot in what Deputy McCann says about certain artists not getting good salaries and so forth, but, speaking, as I am trying to speak, on behalf of the person who pays the piper, the licence holder who wants value for his 12/6, I can say that he shows a greater satisfaction with the station, but also expresses a wish for an extension of the afternoon programme of records and, if possible, the opening of the station from 1 o'clock or 1.30 until 11 p.m. without a break.

Seosamh Ó Mongáin

Níl mise sásta leis an gcaoi a bhfuil an Radio á stiúradh. Más tír Ghaedhealach í seo ba chóir go mbeadh Gaedhilg cheart le cloisteál. Dubhairt Teachtaí eile a labhair annseo anocht go raibh an Béarla féin lochtach—nach dtuigfí uaidh gür tír ar leith sinn, ach má tá locht ar an mBéarla is seacht measa an Ghaedhilg. Ní bhíonn inti go minic ach raiméis.

Tá sé leithchéad bliain ó cuireadh Connradh na Gaedhilge ar bun agus ba chóir go mbeadh dul ar aghaidh eicínt déanta againn. Ní amhlaidh atá. Ar gcúl atámuid ag dul. Chó cinnte is go bhfuil an Teach seo annseo tiocfaidh dream in ár ndiaidh lá eicínt a bhéarfas a mallacht dúinn faoi nach bhfuilmid dáirírí faoi'n nGaedhilg. Rud eile, ba chóir go mbeadh níos mó cuirmeacha ceoil i nGaedhilg le cloisteál seachas na rudaí seafóideacha Béarla a bhíos le cloisteál.

Tugtar daoine aníos go Bleá Cliath ó na háiteacha is iargcúlta in Eirinn agus réis aistir mór fada a chur díobh ní bhíonn le fáil aca ach cúpla punt. Ar ndóigh, ní íocaíocht chóir ná chothrom í sin. Nuair a bhí an tAire féin ag caint is i mBéarla a labhair sé. Rinneadh dearmad glan ar an nGaedhilg. Níl sa rud uilig ach magadh.

Nuair a thiocfas an lá a mbeidh na Gaedhilgeoirí is fearr sa tír ag labhairt ar an Radio is mó an meas a bheas againn air. Nuair a bhíos Gaedhilg á craoladh ní don tír seo amháin í ach do thíortha móra an domhain, lena chruthú gur tír inti féin an tír seo agus go bhfuil teanga bhríoghmhar bheo aici; ach maidir leis an gcineál raiméis a bhíos le cloisteál, ní Gaedhilg bhríoghmhar i ach a mhalraid.

Mr. Corish

I should like to congratulate the director on the improvement that has been made in the programmes within the past 12 months. Of course, a great deal yet remains to be done, but there is one thing for which he deserves great credit, and that is in connection with the lunchtime concerts. Up to a few months ago we had to listen to nothing but crooning and jazzing every day for two hours. If that had continued, I am quite satisfied that we would have very little music in this country within the next generation. I should also like to impress on the Minister the necessity for extending the hours of broadcasting. If he cannot see his way to extend the lunchtime concerts on week days, I do not think it is too much to ask that we should have extended afternoon programmes on Sundays, especially in the winter time. People are wont to sit at home in the afternoons after their lunch and, if they want to listen-in to a radio programme, they have no alternative but to tune-in to British or other stations. I think that it is not too much to ask that from 2.30 p.m. until 6 p.m., the hour at which the station now reopens, there should be a continuous performance of good Irish music or good music from any country.

A couple of years ago we asked the Minister to let us have the news earlier on Sundays. As a result, he has given us news at 6.40 in the evening. I would suggest that we should have that news at 1.45 or 1.40, the same as on week days. Some years ago I also drew the attention of the Minister to the fact that the reception from Radio Éireann in Wexford was extremely bad. I want to tell him now that it was never worse than it is at the present time. Apart from the fact that there is a shrill whistling noise coming through—I understand that it is coming through in various parts of Ireland—it is absolutely impossible to get any reception in Wexford town from Radio Éireann, especially on Sunday nights. Question Time on Sunday nights is a very interesting item and many people like to listen to it. For the last few Sundays I have endeavoured to listen-in to it, but I could not hear a single word. Not one word of Question Time can be heard distinctly in Wexford town. At 10.50 last Sunday night I tried to hear Seán Ó, Ceallacháin's talk on Gaelic sports, but not one word could I hear.

When I raised this matter some years ago in the Dáil the Minister was good enough to send somebody to Wexford to find out what the cause was. I do not know what the cause was, but I do know that there was an improvement immediately afterwards. But it was never so bad as it is at the present time. Surely there must be some reason for that. It is not too much to ask, when people are paying their licence fees year after year, that some attention should be paid to complaints that I know have been sent to the Minister's Department in connection with this matter. I do hope that the Minister will make a serious effort within a very short time so that the people in that particular area will get the radio reception to which they are entitled.

For the last two or three years I have tried to induce the Minister to let us have the Irish news before the other news. In the British news at 6 o'clock we hear all about the war. Of course we do not hear the other side, but we get a little of that from Radio Éireann. But sometimes we have to listen for 20 minutes to Radio Éireann giving a re-hash of what we have heard in the British news at 6 o'clock, while we cannot hear some important Irish news which we want to hear until the war news is finished. Surely the Irish news should be given first. We hear the headings of the news and we may be told that there is some important announcement to be made, perhaps on behalf of some Government Department which we, as members of the Dáil, are interested in. We may be unable to wait for 20 minutes while Radio Éireann is rehashing what we heard in the British news at 6 o'clock. Why is it we cannot have the Irish news first? Surely there is nothing against that.

Deputy Larkin and Deputy McCann referred to the fees paid to actors and actresses, and I wish to join in the protest made by these Deputies. Those two Deputies I am sure are mostly concerned with Dublin actors and actresses. But, when you compare their position with that of people who have to come up from the country for an audition or to take part in a programme, I think it will be found that the Dublin actors and actresses are "in clover" by comparison. The fees given to provincial artists who come to Dublin, especially in present circumstances when fares are so high and it is impossible for them to get back for a couple of days, are absolutely inadequate. I suggest to the Minister that he should get somebody who understands the situation, who realises what these people have to go through in order to perfect themselves to take part in a Radio Éireann programme, to examine into this question and try to give those people a decent fee.

Deputy McCann suggested that there should be a permanent company of actors and actresses attached to Radio Éireann. I suggest to Deputy McCann that that might not be altogether a success. I think we would get tired of listening to the same people night after night and week after week. I also think that, if that were brought about, Dublin would have a monopoly of the whole thing and that provincial artists would not get an opportunity at all.

I agree, however, that there should be some actors and actresses permanently attached to Radio Eireann. So far as variety entertainments are concerned, I have heard some of these supposed variety artists through the medium of Radio Eireann, and I would be ashamed to say that some of them belonged to this country. Some of them have been trying to ape British comedians who entertain people on the other side of the water who have not the sense of humour that we have, trying to imitate British comedians who would not be listened to on an Irish stage. I believe that some care should be exercised in the selection of artists of that kind. We have magnificent artists in this country, magnificent violinists and singers and other artists. I suggest that we are not making an effort to secure the services of these people. I hope the Minister will pay attention to the few points that have been made by different Deputies. Again I say that we should have the Irish news before we get a re-hash of the English news, and I ask the Minister to pay special attention to the area which I represent, to the people there who are paying for licences and who, night after night, are unable to get any reception from Radio Eireann.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

There has been a good deal of discussion on this question of wireless broadcasting. I think it has emerged that the general dissatisfaction with our broadcasting which is felt outside this House is echoed by the Deputies within it. It is easy to say that in regard to such a service each of us has his individual point of view and that wireless broadcasting cannot attempt to cater for each individual taste. It cannot do that, but it can entertain and it can educate, and I am afraid Radio Eireann is not giving the best entertainment and the best education that it could give to our people. I regard entertainment and education as the two great functions of wireless broadcasting. That does not seem to be realised by the Government here, and I should like to impress that point on the Minister.

In the sphere of entertainment what do we do? With the exception of the radio orchestra, which is very good, and the choir, which is also good, we really have nothing that we can be proud of. The rest of our programme is like a parish concert. We get, perhaps, a first-class pianist sandwiched in between, perhaps, an indifferent contralto and a first-class tenor. Even if the quality of the performance of the three persons were first class, the very fact that the vocal items are included in the programme with the piano solo destroys continuity. That is a point which does not appear to receive sufficient attention in Radio Eireann. I do not know how that can be avoided. It calls for a good deal more planning.

In connection with planning, I should like to pay a tribute, to the Director of Broadcasting. He has improved it a great deal but the planning which would be necessary in Radio Eireann is something that no one man could do. In that connection, I would suggest to the Minister that an advisory council of prominent persons should be formed to assist in this matter. The programmes from Radio Eireann do not reveal the thought and very careful planning that we would expect.

In connection with the hours of broadcasting, some Deputies have referred to the shortness of the period. I think I am correct in stating that the time occupies about 6½ hours per day. With all due respect to Deputy Briscoe and his 10/- licence fee—I was under the impression it was 12/6—the public are not getting proper value in 6½ hours. We make no effort to give any broadcasts to the schools during school hours. Surely it would be possible to do that. I know there have been individual broadcasts for school children and they have been good but, again, in that connection, there is lack of continuity, they are not followed up. No child can take up a subject and follow it to its logical conclusion through the radio programme. I am sure we would all like to have continuity in programmes, so that children or adults could take up a particular series on the wireless and follow it to the end.

I wish to refer to dance music. I hold no brief for jazz music. Personally, I switch off the radio when it is being broadcast.

Mr. Dillon

Oh!

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

I like dancing but I do not like dance music on the radio. That is a personal viewpoint and I feel that, being a great lover of classical music, I should put forward the case for those who like dance music. Such people have been ignored. That particular type of music is not broadcast now. These people have paid their 12/6 and they are entitled to their point of view. I think the action of the authorities in this respect is part of that attitude to which Deputy Larkin referred— another manifestation of a niggling disposition towards the public. In all seriousness, I would ask the Minister to look into the question of having an advisory council set up and to make up his mind as to what proportion of time should be devoted to education and what proportion should be devoted to entertainment and not to give the public what I might call bits and snippets of things—very entertaining for a short time but not getting anybody who is really interested in a subject anywhere.

I know there are and have been very excellent musical broadcasts. I listened last night with the greatest pleasure to that very fine musician, Dr. Larchet, giving an explanation of next Sunday's radio concert. It was a very delightful thing to listen to and very well done. There are other very fine talks—the horticultural ones, I think, are infinitely better than the talks given on other wireless programmes, which are a great deal more publicised. I should like to see an extension of that type of broadcasting to a whole variety of subjects. I should like to see the children specially catered for and catered for regularly at a time early in the day. I do not think the time at which children's talks are given at present is sufficiently early for young children. In all seriousness, I commend these points to the Minister and I hope he will be able to do something about them.

Mr. Dillon

I do not want to say very much, but I was interested in hearing Deputy Maurice Dockrell's remarks as to the function of Radio Eireann in regard to his education, or, perhaps, he meant our education.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

I said "our education".

Mr. Dillon

Yes, but then it seemed to me that the Deputy was asking the Minister to educate us all, through Radio Éireann, and asking us to go through a kind of State test, so to speak, as to whether we were serving the cause of Cathleen ní Houlihán or not, but it must be remembered that the Minister cannot hope to educate us all into working for all the things that the service of Cathleen ní Houlihán might require. I quite admit that if I were Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to-morrow, I doubt very much whether Deputy Little would allow me to arrange for his education through the means of Radio Éireann, and for just the same reason I do not see why the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs should endeavour to arrange for my education. There is a very serious problem involved here in this matter of teaching us what our tastes should be. For instance, I am an ordinary country publican, but I have no doubt that my taste, as regards music or other matters, is as good as that of anybody else, and I do not want my taste with regard to musical or other matters to be raised or depressed by anything that the Minister or his Department may decree. The business of education is a very serious matter, and I have seen no evidence, either from Radio Éireann, the B.B.C., the N.B.C., or the C.B.C. to show that the items they broadcast are of very much educational value.

I can always listen-in to the broadcasts of any of these Radio corporations, and if I do not like one broadcast, thanks be to God, I can turn it off and turn on to another, and I am sure that that applies to everybody else in this country. I must say, however, that, as a rule, the programmes supplied by Radio Éireann are of a deplorably mediocre character, but we must remember that we are suffering under certain very great difficulties at the moment, and also that we suffer under difficulties, even in normal times, to which other countries are not subject. It is true to say that it is rather difficult for Radio Éireann to supply, for every one of the 365 days of the year, different and entertaining items for every day in the year.

I quite admit that there are great difficulties involved, but I often wonder whether something could not be done to make for a greater variety in our programmes. For instance, I often wonder whether any use has been made, or could be made, of the annual prize-winning concert at the Feis Ceoil. It has seemed to me, listening to these annual prize-winning concerts, that there is a surplus of first-class talent available, but I have never seen any attempt made to have that talent assembled for the purposes of Radio Éireann. No doubt, it is gratifying enough for these artists to have attained outstanding achievements at the Feis Ceoil, but one would imagine that Radio Éireann would be on the qui vive to give these artists a chance to broadcast over our wireless. In that way, I think it would be possible to build up three or four excellent programmes of sufficient length for the purposes of Radio Éireann. Apart from the prize-winners at the Feis, there are also the people who get second, third and fourth place, and, very often, it puzzles the judges to decide which of the candidates should be awarded a prize. Now, I do not know that I have ever heard of anybody in Radio Éireann introducing to their audience a singer or musician who had been a runner-up at the Feis, and surely there must be an abundance of material there to provide for a number of concerts. I cannot recall ever having heard anything of that sort being done.

Now, if there is any doubt in anybody's mind about the ability, of our Radio Éireann Orchestra—about which I have no doubt, because I think they can compare very favourably with any other orchestra that has broadcast—I think it would be dispelled as a result of their recent performance of the Dvorak Concerto, with the assistance of a lady guest pianist. That performance was given by our own Radio Éireann Orchestra, and it certainly could be compared with anything that could be given by the B.B.C. Now, I am sure that there is quite a number of orchestras in this country which could perform concerto music very efficiently, and I think it is an ignorant outrage on the part of Radio Éireann that those who want to hear such music should be debarred from hearing it, or on the other hand, that those who want to hear dance music or, if you like, "jazz" music, should be debarred from hearing it. I must confess that I like dance music. I am not addicted to what is called "swing" music, because I cannot understand it, but I am quite prepared to admit that if one could understand it, it might prove to have very excellent characteristics.

Why, then, should not the public be afforded an opportunity of listening to such music, if they wish to do so? It is on a par with asking why the public should not be allowed to listen to classical symphonic music if they wish to listen to it. I can imagine, for instance, that our grandmothers, on seeing paintings by Van Gogh, would have considered them an outrage. I think it was Ruskin who described Whistler's paintings as the throwing of a paint-pot at a wall, and if our Minister for Posts and Telegraphs were alive at that time, and had the same views as Mr. Ruskin, he would have ordered all of Whistler's paintings to be thrown into the Thames, because that is more or less what Ruskin advocated at that time but at the same time it must be remembered that in those days, those who wanted to adore at the shrine of Whistler, or at the shrine of Landseer, were allowed to do so, while those who wished to adore at other shrines were also allowed to do so. Quite possibly, in a few years' time, public opinion in this country may change again with regard to these matters, but our Minister for Posts and Telegraphs evidently takes the view that because he or his advisers do not like "swing" music, or because the seagreen, incorruptible followers of Cathleen ní Houlihán do not like "swing" music and are prepared to put up with the endless caterwaulings of certain céilidhe bands, other people must put up with it. Why should I not be allowed to listen to "swing" music, if I wish to do so, or why should I not be allowed to listen to céilidhe band music, if I wish to do so? I think it is just ignorant narrow-minded bigotry, on the part of those who want to hear one type of music, to deny the opportunity to others to hear a different type of music which, admittedly, may not have a very wide appeal. I think that this eternal broadcasting of céilidhe band music is a great hardship because, to those of us who do not appreciate it, in the absence of the dance itself, it is a tedium. However, nobody, finding céilidhe band music to be a tedium in the absence of the dance itself, would complain about it, if other forms of music were combined with it. If a type of music, which some people do not like, is broadcast on one or two nights of the week, they can turn it off and wait for the night when the other type of music would be broadcast. On the other hand, those who want céilidhe band music can turn off the other type of music and wait for the nights on which their own type of music will be broadcast, but it is ridiculous to thrust the one type of music down our throats all the time, particularly in view of the fact that other and higher forms of Irish music are rejected.

The best traditional Irish music, in my opinion, came from the Belfast radio station. I called the attention of the director of our station to that, and asked whether or not the services of the lady concerned in those Belfast broadcasts could be availed of here. I think he answered that he was inquiring into the matter, but I do not know what happened as a result. I think it is only very rarely that you hear good traditional Irish music through Radio Éireann, but good exponents of that type of music are available, however rare they may be, and I think the services of such people should be availed of by our Department.

Now, bearing in mind the difficulties that our director has to face as a result of the low fees that are paid to artistes, surely we ought to develop some kind of reciprocal arrangements with the B.B.C. There is no use in our saying that in this country, at any conceivable date, we can hope to have the services of a symphonic orchestra or of great artistes such as the B.B.C. can command, and it is highly unlikely that we can bring here great artistes of international reputation, simply because their fees would be quite beyond our capacity to pay. But it does seem highly likely that on occasions of great broadcasts from the B.B.C., we should be able to get them by overhead wire and relay them from Radio Éireann.

I remember, just before the war, Toscanini conducted the Nine Symphonies of Beethoven in London. So far as I know, not a single one of them was relayed to this country, and they were undoubtedly amongst the greatest performances of these Nine Symphonies given in this century. There are many other foreign and domestic artistes to whom the people would like to listen here. I do not know whether other Deputies have the same experience as I have, but since the war I have found that no British station is clearly audible in this country. They all tend to become distorted. There are many broadcasts which people would like to hear, and which could conveniently be relayed to this country. In this way, by turning to Radio Éireann, you could get your home programme and anything outstanding in the British programme. I do not know whether we would have broadcasts here which the B.B.C. would care to have relayed, but I have no doubt, if such were available, a similar arrangement could be made by Radio Éireann to give to the B.B.C. whatever we had. I suppose money is a nominal consideration in all these matters. Am I not correct in saying that the present situation is that Radio Éireann is getting more in licences than it is expending? Is Radio Éireann still costing the taxpayer something?

Mr. Little

It is very nearly a line ball.

Mr. Dillon

If the Government want to establish a monopoly in radio, I think there is a great deal to be said for that course, but then they ought to recognise that they are not entitled to seek a profit out of it, and if the income is not sufficient to provide programmes of a proper standard, then the taxes should be made liable for any further expenditure necessary. If the Government is not prepared to help from the Exchequer they ought to leave it to private enterprise to provide programmes. I would prefer that the community should provide the programme rather than that the service should be left to private enterprise as is done in the United States, but the Government, because of the fact that we do leave it to them, should not labour under the delusion that they are entitled to give us mediocre programmes and to say in their defence: "Oh, well, that is all we can afford from the income we get."

I heard Deputy Corish refer to the desirability of providing Irish news first and then the world news subsequently. I think there is a good deal to be said for that. The news given out in Radio Éireann is very largely a recapitulation of the information available from the B.B.C. That is, of course, inevitable, coming as it does at a later time, but it does seem reasonable, if there is any matter of local interest, that we should get it first and then get the Irish version of world affairs thereafter. I, however, do not listen very often when the opportunity is afforded me, to the news broadcast at 10 o'clock. I should be interested to hear from the Minister if there is any improvement in the fantastic propaganda partiality that used to disfigure that broadcast. For a very long time it was used as a cheap publicity service for the purpose of suggesting that Fianna Fáil Ministers were marvels and that all that they said in this House was all that was worth broadcasting to the country. When any member of the Labour Party, the Fine Gael Party or of the Independent group spoke their observations were practically ignored, but any member of the Fianna Fáil Party who said anything, however imbecile, was reported exhaustively. The grosser imbecilities were studiously eliminated from the report, of course, so that the speaker was made to appear intelligible to the country. I have no objection to that service for members of the Fianna Fáil Party provided the intelligent members of the House were honestly reported, but that they certainly were not. I should be interested to hear if there has been any improvement along these lines.

That leads me to the last thing I want to say, that my experience of how things can be twisted by the method in which they are presented to the public makes me extremely chary of suggestions that Radio Éireann should undertake our education. Mind you, I do not think in honesty that you could ever say of the Radio Éireann news service that it ever said what was untrue—it is always too careful for that—but it managed to present the truth in such a form that anyone listening to it would go away believing a lie. That is a very subtle and dangerous thing to do. When I say that, I am referring to those reports of the proceedings in Dáil Éireann. They were insidious; they were dishonest; they were time-serving and, I believe, drafted for the purpose of making Fianna Fáil propaganda by members of the Radio Éireann staff who would be better employed doing their work honestly. Whether the Minister directly influenced them to do that, I am not in a position to say. Certain it is that he was gravely remiss in not rebuking them very sternly for their grave failure to edit reports honestly and fairly. Whether his sluggard conscience has been stirred since the last time this Estimate was discussed in the House I am not in a position to say. If it has, well and good; but if it has not, it is time something was done about it. That very ability to pervert the truth in order to deceive, to pervert the truth in order to mislead, to pervert the truth in order to corrupt, should put us all on our guard lest we be carried away by some specious proposal that the education of the public should be entrusted to Radio Éireann. It is a most unsuitable body to undertake the task.

If the mature population of this country stands in need of education, then I prefer to leave it to our universities and the Churches to which we belong—the Protestant Church or the Catholic Church. I have no desire to commit it into the hands of bureaucracy or of the Government because I am entirely satisfied, from my experience of Governmental efforts in that direction, that far from seeking to educate, they will seek to corrupt; far from seeking to illuminate the public mind they will seek to obscure; far from seeking to communicate the truth they will seek to withhold it. All these activities are the very negation of education and can very skilfully mislead an innocent people. I do not want Radio Eireann to educate me or anybody else; I want them to entertain me, to give me news and information of which I can be the best judge.

I do not want to be taken as meaning that I deprecate such talks as that on horticulture to which Deputy Dockrell referred. I am glad to be able to say that the standard of that allocution is as good as anything we could get from Britain or anywhere else. I do think it would be a most useful thing if some of our scientists would deliver disquisitions or discourses of that character in connection with farming problems. For instance, if somebody would deliver a discourse at the present time as to why slugs and worms are eating potatoes, as they never eat them before, or why they eat Kerrs Pinks in preference to Golden Wonders, that would be something which we would all appreciate from Radio Éireann.

If some of our distinguished scientists in agriculture would give us a discourse at present on how best to abate red rust on the top of oats, he would discharge a very useful service, because very few people seem to know that the only way to get rid of it is to eliminate the buckthorn. We badly need someone in Radio Eireann to tell us what the buckthorn is, and if we could get some practical men to give information of that kind and educate us in that way it would be a very useful service. I do not regard it as education—at least, the furthest I would be prepared to go would be to describe it as technical education. If Radio Éireann would impart some technical education to the men on current agricultural problems, and teach the women a few supplementary dishes with which to adorn our tables, and household tricks to make our homes more comfortable, let the education stop there. When that is done, they should turn to entertainment and the other functions proper to Radio Eireann, and if they discharge them with reasonable competence there will be very little complaint in Dáil Éireann or anywhere else.

Mr. Cogan

I entirely agree with Deputy Dockrell that the main functions of Radio Eireann should be to educate us and to entertain us. I put education definitely first. There is a wonderful opportunity in the hands of our people to provide the adult population with increased education on all subjects, and I would like to point out what has been done in the last century, in Denmark, for example. An economic miracle was performed there in the adult education of the Danish people. They were inspired, first of all, with a patriotic feeling, to grapple with the economic problems which faced them. As a result of the intensive adult education which was provided, they were able to surmount the most difficult economic problems that ever faced a nation in living memory. If the promoters of that education had at their disposal such a service as Radio Eireann, would they not have willingly, thankfully, availed of it? Would they not have saved a considerable amount of organisation and work in providing teachers in the schools throughout the length and breadth of the country?

We have here an opportunity to provide adult education for our people through Radio Eireann. Much has been said about providing education for children, but I think they are getting all the education they are able to deal with. We are spending over £5,000,000 on primary and secondary education and we have a huge army of teachers of every kind, quite sufficient to cater for the needs of our children. But for adult education we have no service whatever which could compare in economy and efficiency with Radio Eireann, if it were properly directed towards that object.

I do not share the fears of Deputy Dillon. I think it is quite possible and reasonable to expect that the Directors of Radio Éireann are capable of providing something similar to what was provided in Denmark in the last century—that is, an education which raises the moral tone of the people, gives them an interest in national culture, and at the same time the technical knowledge which Deputy Dillon appears to applaud.

Mr. Dillon

Who is going to raise the Deputy's moral tone?

Mr. Cogan

Unlike Deputy Dillon, I have not got that superiority complex which inspires me with the idea that I know everything. I have never pretended that I know everything. I am sufficiently humble to go to any school, if I have the time, and learn the subject taught. If I were a citizen of Denmark in the last century, I would have been only too happy to attend the folk schools which were provided and learn Danish singing, history and the technical subjects taught there. If I had the time, I would be quite willing to imbibe similar knowledge from Radio Eireann, if more courses were provided.

One of the disadvantages of educational broadcasts is that the listeners are not organised, for example, in classes to listen. If we had some kind of co-operation between Radio Éireann and an organisation such as Muintir na Tíre, which would provide classes of listeners in every rural area, and if we had each week an educational broadcast, varied over the subjects I have mentioned, paying particular attention to technical knowledge on horticulture and agriculture, while at the same time imparting some cultural knowledge, it would be an ideal arrangement and would make for a definite improvement in our programmes. I realise that the Minister is handicapped to a certain extent, inasmuch as we have to endeavour in our programmes to advance the Irish language. For people who do not know the Irish language, the amount of listening time which they are able to enjoy from Radio Éireann may be curtailed; but we cannot do anything about that. The only remedy would be to extend the time for broadcasting.

There is one thing we should do: we should brighten our programmes somewhat. The Minister referred to the dearth of variety artistes in this country. There seems to be, not only a dearth but a complete absence of variety. There is a definite demand for brighter and lighter programmes. Much has been said about cultural entertainment and classical music, but the average citizen likes to have a little of the lighter and brighter entertainment, when he is tired after his daily toil. Radio Eireann appears to be absolutely incapable of providing that type of entertainment. It would appear as if we had completely lost our sense of humour. Very rarely do we hear any jokes on the Irish radio programme, and when we do, they are either of a vulgar type or are offensive. I know it is very hard to make a joke, except at your own expense, without hurting someone's feelings. It is particularly hard for an institution such as Radio Éireann, which is public property, to indulge in any light amusement or comedies of any kind. I fully appreciate the Minister's difficulty.

Mr. Dillon

In making a joke?

Mr. Cogan

One of the advantages of being at war is that you can hang a lot of jokes, ancient and modern, on the enemy, but I would not advise the Minister to go to war simply to achieve that purpose.

Mr. Dillon

That is a very good joke.

Mr. Cogan

I am afraid not.

Mr. Dillon

A joke at the expense of neutrality. I suppose that would be considered bad taste.

Mr. Cogan

Some comments have been made upon the various types of accent used by our announcers. One thing I should like to refer to is the exaggeration of the accents of the different counties. It is quite all right to get the natural accent of the different counties, but when you exaggerate it, as they usually do in Radio Éireann—we have the Cork and the Northern accents exaggerated—it becomes very tiring on the nerves. Another tiresome thing is listening to the same voices in all dramatisations. It appears as if the same artistes are taking part in all these dramatisations, because they use the same tone of voice and it is extremely tiring.

So far as news is concerned, I think there are a few things wrong. One is, as other Deputies have pointed out, the Irish news should definitely come first. We should get a little more Irish news and a little less of the re-hash of war news. I think the majority of people who want to hear war news prefer to hear it direct from the different belligerent nations. They get it full-blooded and wholeheartedly from them, instead of the milk and water re-hash from our station—which is necessary, of course. But I think it is not necessary for our station to give long lists of planes shot down, ships sunk, or tanks shot up. That is not news at all; it is merely propaganda padded out for the various official reports from the belligerent States. I think that definitely should be cut out in our programme. What we would like to hear is any item of home news. That should be given full publicity from our station, instead of confining the news altogether to war happenings.

"That is the end of the news, and I am now going to give you greyhound racing results." These are words which I think grate harshly on the ears of our people night after night. I do not see why we should broadcast from our station greyhound racing results. No intelligent person wants to hear them.

Mr. Dillon

If he ventures a shilling on one of the hounds the Deputy will have his ear glued to the radio.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dillon should give as good a hearing as he got.

Mr. Dillon

I am really sorry if I put the Deputy off, but I think such an experienced hand as he will not mind.

An Ceann Comhairle

But the House might.

Mr. Dillon

Devil a fear of that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair certainly does.

Mr. Cogan

I do not want to be too dogmatic on this subject. I quite agree there are numbers of people engaged in breeding and raising dogs, and I know they would be interested in hearing the results of the greyhound racing, but these people can always get the results in properly tabulated form in the daily papers. The people who put a shilling on the dogs, as Deputy Dillon suggests, are people of such a low standard of intelligence that I do not think it is necessary for our wireless station to cater for them.

Mr. Dillon

I notice the whole of Dáil Eireann blushing.

Mr. Cogan

It looks bad to broadcast these results and I think it might give an indication to people outside that, as a nation, we are going to the dogs completely.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Rinneadh tagairt do chraoladh cainnt na dTeachtaí sa Dáil. Isé mo thuairim nach ceart í chraoladh chor ar bith. Is minic a bhíonn cainnt na Dála ar siúl ar an radio ar feadh fiche no triocha nóimeat agus, do réir mar a chloisim daoine ag cur síos air, cuireann sé déistean ortha, go mórmhór nuair a chuimhníonn siad go bhfeicfe siad uilig é ar na nuachtáin lá ar n-a bhárach. Ar ndóigh, dá mbeadh aon scéal ón Dáil a bheadh tábhachtach thar an gcoiteann, ba mhaith leis an lucht éisteachta é chloisteáil, ach ní hiondual go mbíonn aon rud ar siúl nach bhféadfadh fanacht le na páipéiríbh.

I dtaobh labhairt na Gaedhilge ar an radio, ba mhaith liom a rá nar cheart ach na cainnteoirí is fearr a leigint ag cainnt ann. I ngnáthchúrsaíbh agus caidrimh an tsaoil tá fáilte agam i gcomhnaí roimh chineál ar bith Gaedhilge dá dhonacht é— b'fhearr liom é ná an Béarla dá fheabhas. Tá Béarlóirí breághtha sa Tigh seo, agus díreach ar an adhbhar sin labhruigheann siad an iomarca agus líonann siad leabhra na dTuarascbhál le cainnt a thasbáineann nach bhfuil aon stuaim intleachta faoi leith aca seachas fonn cainnte, agus is furasta a aithint go bhféadfaí a gcuid tuairimí a nochtadh sa deichiú cuid den am. Dá labhróchadh na Teachtaí i nGaedhilge ní thárlódh sé sin, go fóilleach ar chuma ar bith. Tá meas agam ar dhroch-Ghaedhilge ó na daoinibh nach bhfuil leigheas aca air, ach ní gá é a leigint ar an radio mar tá togha na gcainnteoirí le fáil de chuile chanúint. Agus is mian liom a admháil go gcuireann sé glionndar croidhe orm a bheith ag éisteacht le cuid den chainnt Ghaedhealach a bhionn ar an radio agus ní hé an chuid is lugha de ach oiread. Is mór agus is iongantach an feabhas atá tagaithe ar an radio le na bliantaibh, agus is "le mo theangan i mo phluic" beagnach a dhéanfainn aon chainnt cháinteach ina thaobh.

Ba mhaith liom dá mbeadh rud eicínt ar nós an Radio Digest ann i nGaedhilge. Béidir nár cheart no nár bhféidir a mhacsmhail díreach a bheith ann. Séard atá im intinn agam sgata beag seanachaidhthe a thabhairt le chéile le cur síos ar chúrsaí reatha an tsaoil. Ní dóigh liom go bhfeilfeadh scéalaíocht mar a tuigtear an téarma sin go hiondual, don radio. Ach tá seanchaidhthe ann atá i ndon snas agus spéisiúlacht agus craiceann neachoitianta a chur ar gach a n-abruigheann siad, dá shimplí é. Dá mbeadh seanchaidhe as Ciarraighe, duine as Gaillimh, duine as Muigheo agus duine eile as Tír Chonaill ag cur síos ar rudaí a bhaineas le saol an lae indiu —sgata a toghfaí mar gheall ar a líomhtacht agus a gcora cainnte, a mbuaidh intinne, a bhfeabhas saoithiúlachta—ba chóir go mbeadh a ndíospóireacht, taobh amuigh den teangan i na labharfaí í, an-speisiúil ar fad. Ní gá a leitheidí a bheith ar cur síos i gcomhnaidhe ar an sean-saol. Marar féidir seanchaidhe as an nGaeltacht a fháil sáthach minic, d'fhéadfadh sgata de Ghaedhilgeoirí na Cathrach aithris a dhéanamh ar an Digest o am go ham chó maith agus cho suimiúil le na Béarlóirí.

Dr. O'Higgins

The Minister pointed out that one of the difficulties that presented itself to him and those in control of broadcasting was the number of people of very dissimilar tastes that they had to cater for. I agree with the Minister that that is a problem to be faced and met, but one way of meeting it is not by saying, "I am going to decide what tastes best in everybody's mouth." Taking the middle portion of the Minister's statement with the end portion, the former faced up to the fact that there are people with dissimilar tastes and views, and that it was the function of those responsible for a broadcasting entertainment programme to please all as best they could, and entertain all as best they could. But the Minister wound up by laying down the law that only one particular class of taste had to be catered for. I disagree with that. I agree heartily with the views put forward by Deputy Dillon as far as the lighter side of the programme goes. If some people like jazz music and others prefer ceilidhe music, why not have a bit of both? It is unreasonable for a Department such as the Minister's to decide exactly what type of music people will get, irrespective of taste, and what type of music they will not get. The air hovering in and around this country belongs to the whole lot of us. It is not the monopoly, or the private preserve, of any Government Department, or political Party, and the programmes that come to us over the air, provided at the expense of all the taxpayers, should cater for all the peculiar views and tastes of these various taxpayers.

On the whole, I think that the Department is to be congratulated. I am not a wireless fan. I rarely listen in except to hear the news, or a broadcast of a football match, or a race meeting or something of that kind. I know a great many people who, a year or two ago, were very critical, and expressed the very great and general dissatisfaction that prevailed with regard to our broadcasting effort. Since then these same people have, on the whole, become very appreciative of the improved programmes and better entertainment now given.

As I have said, my interest in broadcasting as an individual confines itself to switching on the wireless at certain hours of the day for news items, and it is on that particular aspect that I want to address the Minister. We have certain hours in our programme devoted to news. Well, I think that is a thing that we are not given at all. I think that no attempt has been made to build up any news service. I am not talking of news in the broad world sense. I am just talking of news—and of the bigger events of the day—in our own little island. Open the columns of a newspaper any morning—leaving out the external news—and you will find in them plenty of interesting items of news, of events that happened in this country. What item of news did any of us ever get over Radio Eireann? I believe that not the slightest attempt has ever been made to give us, in the evening, a summary of the news events of the day, irrespective of racing results and greyhound results, which Deputy Cogan objects to.

Take, for example, the proceedings of this House, which meets two or three days a week for a portion of the year. If people are not interested in this Parliament of ours they should be made interested in it, but the attempt to give the public anything like a reasonable tabloid picture of the proceedings here is a glaring distortion. I do not know that I am correct in criticising or blaming the Minister's Department for that. I suspect that what happens is this: a bulletin is passed on by the Government Publicity Department and Radio Eireann broadcasts what it gets, but whatever Department is responsible for the preparation of the nightly report on the Dáil proceedings, the thing is a disgrace and an abomination. Radio Eireann, any more than the Army, the police force, or the judiciary, is not the private property of any political Party, and if the Minister is to use the broadcasting station in the interests of the country he will utilise it in order to try to build up respect for the great institutions of this State, one of which is the Parliament of the country. If, through the medium of Radio Eireann, the masses of the people, young and old, are to be convinced that this is not a deliberative Assembly: that it is merely an assembly of so many people who sit down each day and listen to the views of Ministers and then go home, that, I suggest, is doing a national disservice.

I listen to the news of the B.B.C. as well as to the news of our home station. I have listened to the summarised versions given over the B.B.C. of the activities of the House of Commons. They indicate that when a subject is introduced for debate in the House of Commons a reasonable length of time is given to the Minister introducing the subject. About half that time is given to the leaders of other Parties in Parliament who have expressed their views, so that any Englishman or Englishwoman listening in night after night can say to himself or herself: "The House of Parliament is worth while; every subject brought before it is examined inside out and upside down, and it is an Assembly that we have a right to be proud of and to retain."

What happens here? Radio Eireann comes on in the evening and gives news of what happened in Dáil Eireann. We may hear that Deputy Little orated about the work of the Post Office, about his own work, and about his predecessor's work, but there is no mention of views expressed by the leader of the Labour Party, or the views of the leaders of the Farmers' or Fine Gael Parties. If there is, it is in the proportion of one to a hundred. I can speak on this question with a certain amount of knowledge. I heard this point raised year after year, but I never added my voice to those of others, for this reason, that it was not until the Dáil started to rise at 9 p.m. that I had an opportunity of listening in to the 10 o'clock news on the day this House was sitting. Lately when I go home early I turn on the news just to see what kind of a picture I get of proceedings that I witnessed here during the afternoon. It is a foul piece of lying propaganda, unjust to the Parliament, unjust to Deputies. In the end it is unfair to people who trust Government institutions, and a big organisation like Radio Eireann, to give them a fair and a reasonable picture of what has happened in an important Assembly such as this.

With regard to other forms of news, I suggest to the Minister that events in which our people would be interested happen every day, the kind of events that we see in our daily papers next morning, such as a big action in the courts, the verdict and damages assessed, or an important discussion at some county council, perhaps some sporting fixture, an accident or 101 items that we read in the newspaper the following morning. Is any effort ever made to provide a news service? If I turn on the news service to-night I venture to say that four-fifths of the time devoted to ordinary news will be taken up with war bulletins of the different belligerents, and that the remaining time will be taken up with racing and greyhound results. I do not agree with Deputy Cogan that these results should not be given.

Leaving out the higher aspect of the question, horse-racing and greyhound-racing have both become industries of immense importance, and as a vast amount of money is represented by these two industries the more people we get interested in them the better. Leaving that aside I do not agree with the Deputy's views that it showed some kind of mental deterioration for a person to have a bob on a dog or a bob on a horse. Any time that I believe I have information that is good I put whatever I have in my pocket on a greyhound or on a horse. Unfortunately my information is generally very bad, but I do not regard my attitude as any evidence of mental deterioration. Let us face up to this fact, that if a good dog comes from Kerry or Tipperary a large number of people in these counties will have their pounds or their bobs, and even their tanners, on these dogs, and they will be anxious to hear that night how the dogs fared and incidentally how they themselves fared. It would be unreasonable to let them wait for the result until next day's newspapers. That would be setting out our faces entirely against progress. At the time of the Battle of Waterloo we are told that the public got the result some 18 days later. In these days, surely we would not expect to take that as an example to follow. Let the people get the news at the proper time.

Every country is progressing in every way and we have to keep astride of the times. It is a question of speed. If we can give our people news earlier this year than the station gave it ten years ago, that is what they are paying for, and that is what the service is entitled to provide. I am not against the giving of dog-racing and horse-racing results. Tens of thousands of people are interested in dog-racing and horse-racing. By all means give them the results but while doing so try to cater for all tastes. We get wonderful broadcasts of big Gaelic matches held in Dublin on Sundays. Inter-provincial rugby matches are held on Saturdays, in which large numbers of people are interested, but there are no broadcasts of these matches or of rugby cup matches. Thousands of people are also interested in soccer matches. Are there ever broadcasts of these matches? As far as my experience goes we get broadcasts of international rugby matches.

If these matches take place on the same day as Gaelic or hurling matches I would say that, as the great majority of our people are interested in Gaelic and hurling matches, the others should go by the board. Let the supporters of Gaelic football listen to their matches when they are played on Sundays. When other football matches are played on Saturdays, there is no conflict and one has not to be squeezed to provide for the other. I should like to have more broadcasts of sporting events and county sports. I should also like to hear a running commentary on sporting events over the Irish radio every time a record is broken, whether in connection with soccer, rugby, cricket or gaelic. I want to have the minds of the people taken away from the worries and irritations of modern life and to get them interested in sporting events. It is extraordinary how a good broadcaster can interest people in games, even in games they have never witnessed or whose rules they are not familiar with.

I should like to see a much broader foundation under Radio Eireann in the field of sports and in the field of news, and I should like the narrow, bigoted, prejudiced, partisan type of report that goes out of the proceedings of this Assembly to be entirely abolished and replaced by, say, the type of report that a good newspaperman would give if he were asked to write a short paragraph of the proceedings in Dáil Eireann to-day. Any one of them would do it. The Minister, being a Minister, would get by far the greatest amount of space, but the views of other Parties would at least be published. That is not asking for much. I should like to see more and more people rallying round and supporting ventures such as our Broadcasting Station and I should like to see suspicion and distrust completely removed. I should like it to get all the confidence of all the people, so that there would be no sparring and so that whatever suggestions are made would be made in a helpful frame of mind and so that the people themselves would be assured not only of fair treatment but of a true outline of events here, far and away removed from the spirit of Party benches or Party clubrooms.

Mr. Norton

Deputy O'Higgins, as well as other Deputies, has complained about the news service, and I think there is ground for saying that the news service is by no means satisfactory. If you know the facts, however, you know why the service is unsatisfactory. I understand the position to be that that section of the broadcasting service is starved for staff and that in fact, while any of the three or four daily newspapers will send four people to the Dáil to report the proceedings, in order to make sure that proper time is allowed to procure a good report, Radio Eireann sends one reporter, who is expected to write an account of what happened, race back to the station, and try to link up what he has got with whatever else is in the station. With the Dáil adjourning at 9 o'clock and the news coming on at 10.10 p.m., one can quite easily see that a satisfactory news service cannot be given.

Bad as the news service is, the conditions of the people who produce the news are even worse. The National Union of Journalists recently drew to my attention the fact that there was on the staff of the broadcasting station a journalist—employed there for a few years—who asked for holidays. He was told that he could not get any, and that if he wanted holidays, he would have to take them at his own expense. Fancy a State broadcasting station saying to a journalist on its staff: "If you want holidays, you must take them at your own expense." The State has passed legislation to provide holidays for other classes of workers. Bank holidays must be paid for and they are entitled to annual holidays as well; but in the case of this particular reporter, when he asked for holidays, he was told: "Take them at your own expense. So far as the broadcasting service is concerned, you will get none." Could the Minister justify such a situation?

This person had the temerity to wonder what would happen if he went sick and he was told: "If you get sick, it is your own business. We will pay you nothing, so just do not get sick. Keep as well as you can on what we pay you. You will get no holidays to keep you from getting sick, and if you do get sick, you will get sick at your own expense." The Minister cannot justify a condition of affairs like that. I understand that the National Union of Journalists have asked the Minister to receive a deputation to discuss the matter. Perhaps the Minister's recent absence prevented the deputation from being received, but I am sure the Minister cannot have any sympathy with such conditions. I hope he will agree to see the deputation from the National Union of Journalists, and that, as a result of the discussion, he will take steps to remedy this most unsatisfactory position which cannot possibly be justified in any circumstances, and which ought to have no place in the set-up of a State broadcasting institution.

Deputy O'Higgins and others have rightly complained about the news service. What purports to be a news service at night is simply a Fianna Fáil broadcast. Whatever the station may be called—it may be called Radio Eireann during the day—it is certainly Radio Fianna Fáil at 10 o'clock at night. It certainly changes its name then. Nobody could hope to pretend that the news bulletin at night is an impartial bulletin. It is absolutely naked Fianna Fáil propaganda. Anything a Minister says is broadcast, and one would imagine that there were no people in the Dáil but Ministers. Anybody in the Gallery could see that it was not possible to get a Minister to sit in the House, except when his own particular business was on, but if the public are to judge the Dáil by the news broadcast——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies should not refer to visitors in the Gallery.

Mr. Norton

I withdraw the reference, Sir. The point I want to make is that anybody listening to the news at night will get the impression that the only people in the House are Ministers. In fact, that is not so, as we know, but the news is dressed up in such a biassed and distorted way that it is, as I say, nothing more than a Fianna Fail broadcast. I do not know who is finally responsible for dressing up the news or for passing the news bulletin which goes over. I do not know if the Minister ever takes the trouble to look at the bulletin or whether he is ever consulted in the matter, but at all events he has a very heavy responsibility. He is a Fianna Fáil Minister and he knows that the broadcasting service is a national broadcasting service, an institution which belongs not to any one political Party but to all political Parties. The Minister has thrown on him the very special responsibility of ensuring that the utmost impartiality guides the dissemination of news from our national broadcasting system.

The Minister has heard these complaints this year and in previous years, and I am sorry to say that the news service shows no tendency to improve in this respect. Some steps should be taken by the Minister to remedy the situation which is complained about by every Party, except his Party, because every Party except his own knows that it is not fairly treated in the matter. There was at one time a broadcasting advisory committee which I think used to do useful work. I do not think it functions now, but some consideration ought to be given to the desirability of re-creating that committee. It was a committee which might deal with a matter of that kind. If there were such a committee and if it were, as it originally was, representative of different groups and different points of view, I think we could be sure of getting a much more impartial news service than we are getting from Radio Eireann to-day.

Mr. Little

As there is scarcely time for me to open my reply, I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.

The Dail adjourned at 9 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, November 10th.