Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Nov 1943

Vol. 91 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Vote 28—Emergency Scientific Research Bureau.

An Taoiseach

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £10,850 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith an bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1944, chun Oifig Thaighde Eolaíochta Ré na Prainne, maraon le Deontas-i-gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £10,850 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1944, for the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau, including a Grant-in-Aid.

A sum of £22,000 has already been granted to meet the expenses of the bureau by means of Votes on Account. The total provision for this year is £32,850 as compared with £24,500 last year. The increase in the total Estimate is due to the additional amount (£7,850) of the Grant-in-Aid provided under sub-head B and the provision under sub-head A of an additional £500 as honoraria for the members of the bureau. The increase in the Grant-in-Aid is due mainly to additional outlay in connection with certain investigations, in particular those on fuel, iron and steel, fertilisers, explosives and adhesives.

The work of the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau is now in its third year. In moving previous Estimates, I indicated that the main purpose for which the Bureau was set up was to investigate technical problems of industry arising from the emergency. I have outlined the method of work of the Bureau and have given an account of the problems which were being investigated and the principal results obtained. Successful results have been obtained in certain aspects of some of the investigations which I have previously mentioned. Other investigations have been successfully concluded, while some have been discontinued because they did not seem likely to yield promising results, or for other reasons.

The retort plant at Turraun, for producing turf charcoal suitable for use in producer gas plants, has been completed and put into operation. A yield of about 14 tons per week of high-grade charcoal is being obtained. As it is not considered possible, under present circumstances, to obtain the materials necessary for the production of turf charcoal in large retorts, a satisfactory technique for the production on a large scale of charcoal in pits and kilns has also been developed, and will be used if an increased output of turf charcoal is required to meet the needs of producer plants. The work on substitute fuels for use in gas works led to suggestions adopted by the Dublin Gas Company for modifications in their water gas plant. An investigation into the catalytic enrichment of town gas established that the possibilities of development in this direction during the emergency were not sufficiently hopeful to merit continuance of the work. The Bureau's work on producers assisted in conclusions being reached in regard to the minimum requirements in the design of producer plants. Tests carried out on a locally-manufactured producer for use with uncarbonised wood or turf indicate that down-draught producers of the type tested will prove satisfactory with raw turf, particularly for short distance transport. The effect of storage of turf has been studied by the sampling of the large ricks in Dublin.

Medium-scale experiments on the production of iron by electro deposition, and the manufacture of ferro-silicon, have been successfully concluded. The results of these investigations have been recorded, and the processes will be held in reserve for development should the supply position worsen. The manufacture of carbon electrodes for use in electric are furnaces has been satisfactorily developed, and production is being carried out by the company which collaborated in the research. The Bureau has produced, on a medium scale, lead oxide for use in batteries, and has had separators of Irish timber made by a commercial firm. Both components have been tested in batteries on the road with encouraging results. Experiments have been completed which show the feasibility of making concrete lintel beams, without reinforcement, for building purposes.

Success has been achieved in the manufacture of phosphorus and phosphorus sesquisulphide. The recovery of sulphur from spent oxide was successfully developed on a medium scale, but the economic and technical factors involved do not justify development at present. Irish Alcohol Factories, Ltd., have been successfully operating the plant designed by the bureau for the production of formalin. Arrangements were made between commercial concerns in regard to the erection of a plant for the manufacture of aluminium sulphate, required for paper manufacture, following successful experiments carried out under the bureau's auspices.

Investigations on the technical aspects of ensuring certain medical supplies have been completed. Digitalis produced from Irish-grown plants was standardised and tested clinically, and its manufacture has been undertaken by an Irish firm. All the equipment for invert sugar saline has been acquired by a commercial firm. Pharmaceutical glycerine of high quality was produced on the large scale by a commercial concern, with the help of the Bureau's staff.

The survey of marine algæ has been taken over by the Industrial Research Council. The Bureau's work on this problem was chiefly connected with obtaining algæ suitable for use as a substitute for agar agar. A commercial firm is now in a position to manufacture agar of high quality. Zinc has been successfully reclaimed on the laboratory scale from disused dry batteries.

Many problems in regard to adhesives have been successfully examined. These include casein adhesives, a rubber adhesive for boot manufacture, a mucilage from waste carob seeds, and glue for match manufacture. A process for the manufacture of a substitute insulating tape has been developed by the Bureau and is being worked commercially. Other firms undertook the commercial operation of processes developed by the bureau for the manufacture of flypaper, and the production of a substitute for imported engraving glue.

Methods for the production of acetone, which has many manufacturing uses, were developed, and will be held in reserve against a fresh deterioration in the supply position. Experimental work was carried out in regard to the production of carbon black. Activated charcoal was also produced on an experimental scale.

The Bureau has continued to work in close co-operation with Government Department. For example—the Department of Industry and Commerce concluded, following an examination of the matter with the assistance of the Bureau, that it would not be possible to produce fish oil at an economic price in any general way.

A number of other problems have been successfully investigated, of which a few examples may be mentioned: the provision of substitute wool oil, the production of yeast from home materials, the preparation of fatty acids for use in the manufacture of polishes and the production of insecticides from offal tobacco.

I have now given an account of the principal investigations recently completed by the Bureau. The main part of the work in hand relates to various aspects of the fuel problem. As I mentioned, the plant at Turraun for the production of turf charcoal has been put into operation. Experimental work on the by-products of carbonisation and a general study of the carbonisation process will be continued in connection with this plant. This work will prove of value in the study of the production of gas from peat.

The Bureau's work on producers continues, and attention is being devoted to down-draught producers for use with uncarbonised wood or turf. An experimental producer of this type, based on the most promising of the continental designs, has been constructed and is undergoing tests. The results to date indicate that the continental type of plant is unlikely to be suitable in this country during the emergency in any general way. An investigation on the use of turf for automatic stoking in medium-sized boiler installations is being hampered by difficulties in obtaining fuel of suitable size. Results to date show that turf of suitable size could be burned in standard automatic stokers without great difficulty.

The Bureau's emergency plant for the production of compressed ammonia is being maintained in working order-Many problems relating to the use of adhesives in industry are still under examination. The production of phosphorus and phosphorus sesquisulphide continues.

The Bureau has a considerable amount of work in progress in connection with the production of explosives. Preliminary work has been completed in regard to the production of chlorates, and investigations with a view to production on a larger scale have been commenced.

Experiments have been carried out on the production of an improved fertiliser from Clare phosphate, and tests of the product are in progress. The Bureau co-operated in large-scale experiments carried out by a commercial firm on the use of Avoca pyrites for the manufacture of sulphuric acid, which is required in the production of superphosphate. Encouraging results have been obtained and the experiments are being continued.

The possibilities of the commercial production of plates and oxide for battery manufacture are being explored following successful experiments.

Geophysical surveys for iron and nickel ores are in progress in collaboration with the Geological Survey. The possibilities of the collection of scrap alloy steels for re-use were examined by the Department of Industry and Commerce, with the assistance of the bureau, and methods of spectrographic analysis necessary for the classification of the collected material are being developed by the Bureau.

An amplifier for increasing the power of short-wave broadcasting has been designed, constructed and installed at Athlone. Tests have been made on a limited scale, but there are considerable technical difficulties which still require to be investigated.

A number of other miscellaneous problems were dealt with by the bureau by experimental work or by the provision of digests of literature or information from personal knowledge.

A large part of the Bureau's work would not have been possible without the close co-operation and assistance offered by outside bodies. The Government and the Bureau are thankful to the professors and laboratory staffs of the universities who co-operated wholeheartedly with the work of the bureau, and to the many industrial firms and private persons who assisted in the solution of problems.

Mr. Cosgrave

In the case of a Vote such as this, with an elaborate statement dealing with digitalis, glycerine and other matters, would it not be possible to make available a limited number of copies of it?

The Taoiseach

I think that certainly would be desirable, and I will try if we can do it now.

Mr. Cosgrave

Listening as attentively as I could to the statement, I caught the reference to digitalis and glycerine, but I did not catch the name of a third item which the Minister said was being produced economically. When replying, perhaps, the Minister would say how those problems arise in the first instance. Do applications come from business people to have certain items examined, or from Government Departments? Could he also give us some idea regarding the experiments that have been carried out? Can he say if they have been successful from the point of view of their economy? It would be highly desirable if a body such as this, or some body in the State, would conduct experiments and research into various matters affecting industry and science. Our understanding of this particular Department was that it was to aid and assist, to some extent, in providing substitutes for the needs arising out of the war emergency. I think that we are entitled to ask the Minister if he is satisfied in regard to the considerable sums of money that have been expended up to date. I take it that these sums, together with the present Estimate, run into about £100,000. That figure represents fairly heavy expenditure, and we would like to know if something of value has been achieved in return for it. Nobody would object to expenditure of this sort if we were getting value for it. We would even be prepared to go as far as saying that we do not want immediate value, but we would like to know if the expenditure is even approaching something which will be of advantage.

One matter that was referred to in the course of the statement was the provision of insecticide. Would the Minister tell us if the manufacture of that is proceeding to any great extent, and to what extent it is proving valuable? As regards a matter that is in some way parallel to it, will he say if there has been any examination of the problem of dealing with vermin — mice and rats — or whether the extension of cereal-growing in the country would be likely to occasion the spread of vermin? My information is that a very good corrective was Rodine, which was manufactured in Liverpool and is not now available. Some complaints have reached me from different parts of the country with regard to the spread of rats.

Mr. Larkin (Junior)

I think we all welcome the development of research. It seems to me that we should not regard the development of research as being merely an emergency feature of our economic life. I feel that if we develop along the lines indicated by Deputy Cosgrave, of having some understanding as to what our expenditure ought to be as well as on the practical application of the results achieved, it is possible that the House would be prepared to give further financial assistance. What I have in mind is that not merely should this bureau be an emergency aid to industry and the form of our economic life, but that it should be something more: a utilisation of the young trained minds that we are developing year after year and exporting to other countries. I have in mind one young man who left this country some years ago because he was unable to get employment here. To-day, he is the chief metallurgical chemist in one of the great metal combines in England. If other young men who are associated with a project like this could be exploited, from the point of view of their mental development and training, I think it could be of great benefit to the country. If this particular aspect of the Emergency Scientific Bureau is to be considered further. I think some indication should be given to the House of the success that the Bureau has made in its studies, not merely on the theoretical but on the practical side. It would be important if some information could be given as to the actual results achieved in the field of manufacture from the point of view of practical development.

There is one thing especially that we should bear in mind. It is quite possible that, in the case of a Bureau such as this, quite valuable improvements and discoveries have been made, some of considerable commercial value. Can we be told what is the relationship between the Bureau and the commercial undertaking that submits to it some particular line for investigation, and as a result of which something valuable for that particular manufacturing concern or industry is obtained? Is there any financial contribution on the basis of the improvements put forward as a result of the studies of the bureau, or are these merely handed over for the private benefit of the industry concerned? I think that in this Bureau we have got the basis of something that we required in this country, especially during the last ten or 12 years. Over a period in our history we have held the belief that we had here wider economic sources of life than those which were being developed. If only we utilise the trained minds that we are developing here year after year, we may yet be able to prove the soundness of our beliefs in that regard.

Mr. Dillon

I find myself in entire agreement with Deputy Larkin when, as I gather, he suggests that this Emergency Research Bureau might be given a somewhat more permanent status than appears to be envisaged. I think that post-war opportunities will have to be sought for the establishment of industries in this country which will stand upon their own legs and make a profit. In order to give point to the suggestion that a bureau of this character should be given permanent status I would suggest to the Taoiseach that one line of inquiry which, apparently, the Bureau has already embarked upon, has immense potentialities. The Taoiseach referred to digitalis. The whole range of therapeutic drugs offers a field of development for this country for which, I suggest, we have peculiar advantages for certain branches at least. The trend of medical therapeutics is veering towards sera and glandular preparations. We are peculiarly and advantageously placed in the live-stock industry. You will find there the basis of what I believe to be a very considerable industry calling for a high degree of skilled specialisation. If we could develop that here, I think that would naturally develop gradually a better preparation of medicinal drugs from the raw materials readily available to us already. As that developed it would become quite easy to grow a variety of other raw materials, which could be used in the drug trade, thus providing a very valuable crop for farmers and promoting a very valuable industry. The reason why we cannot hope for the development of such an industry, unless the Research Bureau is encouraged to press forward along that line, is that I doubt very much if any group of industrialists would put up the money to conduct the preliminary research work and for such an enterprise. I believe if the Research Bureau did the ground-work that subsequently capitalists would be found to exploit it, that a reasonable reciprocal arrangement would be entered into, and the Bureau recouped for any expenditure it might have incurred in undertaking preliminary research work. All I have said in regard to the therapeutic drug trade could doubtless be applied to a number of other industries of a similar kind, but it is inexpedient at this time to go through the whole list.

The only other item I wish to refer to in reference to the research bureau is where they are engaged on investigations on the potentialities of turf. How soon are we going to face the truth about turf? The truth about turf is that as a domestic fuel for those living adjacent to the bog it is incomparable, but for all other purposes it is worth sweet damn all. Everyone knows that.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise now.

Mr. Dillon

It may be remembered that the Minister spoke at length on the energetic measures the research council were taking to develop turf as a motor fuel, and to make it available for a variety of other things on which they are spending a lot of good money. Everybody knows that this is part of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures redspot. He has got turf on the brain. He has a bee in his bonnet about turf, and so long as that bee continues to buzz we are all going to be made believe that it can do everything from feeding chickens to running aeroplanes. The truth is that it is a most excellent fuel for those who use it for domestic purposes near the bog, and indeed for those who use it as a fuel for certain industrial needs near bogs, or within a radius of 20 miles, but outside that it can serve no useful purpose whatever. It may be that we are going to have this described as a sort of burnt offering to the second greatest industry in the country, which the Minister for Industry and Commerce forecast in 1935. Deputies will remember the time when it was stated we were to have 120,000 men engaged.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not relevant.

Mr. Dillon

We are spending money on research, and how to use turf for 101 purposes for which it will never be used.

An Ceann Comhairle

There was a very full debate on the Estimate of the Minister for Supplies on which turf as a fuel was discussed. The Deputy may not quote on one Estimate something said by another Minister on quite another Vote.

Mr. Dillon

I am referring to the question whether the bureau ought to go on spending money and occupying scientists' time in trying to discover if aeroplanes can be run on turf. I say that they cannot. Any commonsense man knows that. If the lines of research being pursued are manifestly and notoriously abortive, I think this is an occasion to warn the Minister that anxious as we are to co-operate in any line of research on which the bureau embarks, there are limits beyond which the House should not be expected to go. In speaking trenchantly on the subject of turf development, I would not wish it to be thought that the Minister is being unduly rebuked for embarking on an experiment which is going to turn out abortive. Naturally many of the experiments undertaken by the bureau will turn out to be abortive. That is their job. They are expected to try a wide variety of things and we know that seven out of ten probably will lead nowhere but, if we get three out of ten that lead to permanent results, that will be ample compensation for the money spent.

I understood the Leader of the Opposition to say that £100,000 had been spent and he wanted to know if we got value for it. We would not mind if we get value. I say definitely that if the Taoiseach was constrained to say that the only result got by the expenditure of £100,000 was a sufficient supply of something required here it would be well spent. If we had to say that 70 per cent. of the experiments had failed I would say that nobody would blame him for that. On the contrary, it is enterprise to venture boldly on anything that shows permanency and would be eminently justified by the circumstances under which it was undertaken. Nobody will be unduly critical of failure in connection with the bureau, but I think honesty demands that we should be critical of what is manifestly cod, and the further expenditure of large sums of private money, through this or any other bureau, on the attempt to use turf for purposes for which it will never be effectively used is in my opinion cod and very much political cod.

It may be possible to clarify the public mind, but I wish, beforehand, to warn the public. It may take one or two years to show them that it is cod, but someone has to bell the cat first and I now bell turf. Deputies will all in two years' time be jumping up to congratulate themselves on discovering that the whole thing was cod. If I hammer sense into their heads in two years I shall consider that I have done my job. This is the first blow in the campaign. The use of turf for domestic fuel or as a fuel to fire industrial boilers in the neighbourhood of bogs is good economy and good sense, but the use of turf for other purposes is all cod. I say that now. Deputies will all say so in two years. I am hoping that there will be some saving of public money as a result of the modest bell that I am tying around the cat's neck. I am trusting that all will combine finally and that the cat will be choked as well as this grotesque project in connection with turf.

Mr. Norton

I hope before it concludes its operations the Scientific Research Bureau will find a vaccine to cure Deputy Dillon of his strange form of modesty. Quite obviously it is necessary to produce it if we are not going to be subjected to ceaseless lectures on economic matters from the Deputy. I suggest that the Minister should take no notice of what the Deputy said about turf research. Deputy Dillon apparently considers that the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures has a bee in his bonnet. Maybe he has, but Deputy Dillon must have hives in his bonnet and elsewhere. After all we have to recognise that this is a relatively undeveloped country and, so far as we have been able to discover, we have not that abundant supply of materials which has made for industrial and commercial greatness elsewhere. It was claimed in the days of trial and tribulation that we had an abundance of raw material which was deliberately withheld from us by alien hands and alien practices. Perhaps a realisation of events in the cooler times through which we are now passing has damped the ardour of many who thought we had an abundance of these essential raw materials for high-class secondary development. I think it is now recognised that we have not that abundance of raw materials which it was at one time believed we had. The land is still our greatest source of wealth and turf comes from the land. If we have, therefore, any type of raw material, whether turf or minerals, capable of being converted into manufactured goods, the expenditure of any reasonable sum of money which we spend on exploiting whatever potentialities turf has, or whatever potentialities such minerals as we have may possess for manufacturing purposes, is well worth while. The sum of money we are asked to vote is a trivial sum, having regard to the possibilities which might flow from a successful scientific investigation of our raw material. Turf is not such an enemy of the Irish people as Deputy Dillon would have us believe.

Mr. Dillon

Turf has been our standby for the last 40 generations.

Mr. Norton

There you are. The Deputy said it was all "cod" a few moments ago.

Mr. Dillon

I said no such thing.

Mr. Norton

The speed of the Deputy's gyrations is bewildering me.

Mr. Allen

The Deputy knows him long enough.

Mr. Norton

I know him long enough, but I still have not plumbed him. I suggest to the Minister that turf is one of the natural resources of the country, and, in so far as we can burn it, we ought to try to burn it, consistent with being able to produce it at a price the people can pay. In an emergency such as that through which we are passing, we have no choice of what is good or best. We have simply to use whatever materials are available, and turf has been a very valuable commodity in the past few years. I do not, however, want to enter into a discussion on the burning value of turf compared with coal or timber. What I suggest to the Minister is that, realising we have an abundance of turf, and that it may produce for us, on research, methods of production which are not available to us to-day, there ought to be no haggling about spending money upon scientific research of that kind.

With Deputy Larkin I agree that this research bureau should not be merely an emergency research bureau. If any country in the world needs to develop its resources, this country does. We have a relatively undeveloped country from the industrial point of view. Our secondary industries, in the main, as this war has shown, are compelled to rely very extensively on raw materials from outside and, therefore, any money spent on scientific research which will produce native raw materials for use in our secondary industries is, in my opinion, money well spent. I should like to ask the Taoiseach what is the relationship between the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau and the Industrial Research Council, which is carried on the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce. Examining the details of the expenditure of the Industrial Research Council, one gets the impression that it covers somewhat the same field as the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau. Maybe it does not; maybe the work is more departmentalised than appears from listening to the Taoiseach's speech and examining details of that body's expenditure; but if these bodies are covering relatively the same field, there surely is a case for amalgamating them, and creating a permanent research bureau of a kind likely to give us lasting results.

If there is any portion of Deputy Dillon's speech with which I agree, it is that portion in which he suggests: "Go ahead and get success. Try to get success, no matter what research is involved, and no matter what sum is spent, having regard to reasonable expenditure." If the Research Bureau fails in a number of respects, well and good. It will at least burst bubbles, or we may get from it permanent results of a character which may in the course of time have very beneficial results for industry and agriculture.

Sir John Esmonde

I should like to add my voice to the voices of other speakers who suggested that this bureau should be a permanent feature of our organisation. I quite understand that investigations at present being carried on by that bureau arise out of certain shortages of raw materials and other commodities which were bound to arise in this country, but with the advance of science and with the secrets which the various belligerents now have with regard to the use to which many commodities can be put under chemical action and which will be released when the war is over, I think it is generally recognised by modern scientists that there is a very big future — I think the Taoiseach, in his statement, used the word "adhesives"— for synthetic products produced from various minerals, plant life and so forth. I should like to see this bureau directing its attention, in particular, to those classes of plant life which will grow in this country, and which, treated chemically, can form the basis of future raw materials for that purpose.

I can give the Taoiseach one example of which I have personal knowledge. There were grown in this country up to 30 years ago very large quantities of artichokes. The artichoke tuber formed part of the material put into a synthetic rubber manufactured before the last war. That is only one example of the uses to which our plant life can be put. Considerable advances have been made during the past few years and there is certainly no doubt that when these secrets, commercial and chemical, which the belligerents now have are released after the war and when the general public get the benefit of them, it will be discovered that there is a vast field in this country for growing certain forms of plants which can be used as the basis of various synthetic products. From that point of view, a permanent bureau of this kind would be a very important feature of our economic life and would help us to provide ready-grown raw material either for use in our own industries— and the growing of it would be an industry in itself — or for export. For that reason, I welcome the existence, due to the emergency, of this bureau and hope it will become a permanent feature of our organisation.

Mr. Cogan

I am in agreement with those who have suggested that this bureau should be a permanent institution. One of the real weaknesses of our economic position is not that we have a vast exportable surplus, but that there is a very large range of essential materials which we cannot and have not been able to produce in the past. This country, for its size, has been rather unfortunate in its deposits of essential minerals. This disadvantage has operated against us for years, and it might not be too much to hope that, with the advance of science, we may overcome that disadvantage to a certain extent. Many essential materials required for industry are now being developed from vegetation and plants of various kinds through the operations of science, and it may open up for this country in the future a field which will put us in a less disadvantageous position in regard to essential raw materials for industry. It is essential that the best brains that are being turned out from our schools and colleges — and there is no doubt that we are turning out brains equal to those of any nation in the world capable of dealing with scientific matters—should be directed towards intensive investigation within this country rather than that they should be forced to emigrate and to devote their services to the advancement of other nations. There is, I think, a very wide field for development both during the emergency and afterwards. I believe that we can and that we must endeavour to reduce to some extent our dependence upon external resources for the more essential needs of industry, transport, and our economic life generally.

One of the most important developments which could be made by science in this country is the production of electrical current to take the place to a considerable extent of imported fuel, oils, coal and other such materials. I disagree with Deputy Dillon in this connection and I think there is certainly a future for turf development. I think that the main future of turf development will lie in the direction of supplementing the production of electricity from water power and other forms of power. Steps were to be taken in regard to the development of this form of power, but they were held up owing to the emergency. There is an opportunity for a Department such as this to investigate the plans and the methods by which it was intended to develop turf for the generation of electricity and to perfect them so that they may be used to the very best advantage. It is also desirable that further investigation should take place in regard to the best and most economic utilisation of water power, tide power and other sources of power which could be harnessed for the production of electricity. We must realise that there is an essential weakness in our national economy inasmuch as we are short of fuel, and electricity offers the most feasible substitute.

In addition to that, we have a wide field for the development of producer gas plant of every kind which would assist us in coping with our transport problems. This also must not be regarded as merely an emergency measure because, as I said, the sources of wealth which have made other nations great, such as oil wells, coal deposits, and various other things which have contributed to the wealth of nations, may tend to be dissipated by use and substitutes will have to be found eventually for them. Therefore it is necessary that our scientists should be working full time on something which would permanently and definitely take the place of these materials.

There is also need for a thorough investigation in regard to the provision of preventives and cures for the various diseases which attack both plant and animal life in this country. There is no doubt that our food supplies are very largely affected as a result of various crop diseases. Potato diseases, for example, were very serious this year and are becoming more serious every year. It would appear as if the diseases attacking the crop were more prevalent in recent years than in the past. We have also diseases attacking cereal crops. The scientific department ought to be able to find preventives for these diseases.

There is also a recent development which will be of interest to this country as an agricultural country and that is a new method of propagating the potato crop while retaining its food value. I have seen it stated that the eyes of potatoes can be taken out and a crop produced from them. That also suggests a line of investigation, because there is no doubt that providing seed for each successive crop of potatoes does eat very largely into the quantity produced, and if any developments can taken place along these lines they will be very welcome. I think this particular Department has the support and goodwill of every Deputy and it is to be hoped that it will pursue its work on a permanent basis and that it will draw to its aid all the best brains that are available.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

The Taoiseach in introducing this Vote seemed to give it a certain air of unreality. Perhaps when he looks into it further he will try to come to more definite conclusions on some of the matters upon which he touched. He spoke about the use of turf for producer gas. I do not know how far he will confirm what I say, but the general idea is that it is dearer and bulkier than the ordinary charcoal manufactured from wood. That is the real acid test — the price and the performance—and he ought to be able to tell us if it has advanced beyond the experimental stage. That is the test by which it will stand or fall.

Some speakers have touched upon many of the new products that have come into being as a result of the war, and which will probably take their appropriate place in the post-war economy. Some of them will probably elbow out some of the metals, and others will give wood a run for its money. Although I think there are hundreds of them, they can be grouped under the heading of plastic compounds—thermo-plastics and other kinds of plastics. Of course, we have casein here at our doors, but that, while it has certain advantages, has also disadvantages. I should like to ask the Taoiseach how far this Department would be justified in investigating to what extent they could produce raw material for four of the plastic compounds. I suggest to him phenol, methylmethalacrite, phenol formaldehyde, and urea formaldehyde. While these do not by any means exhaust the number of thermo-plastic compounds, they would at least focus the investigations on an enormous field which will have to be supplied after the war when raw materials have been found for coping with other difficulties. But the first question is: Can we provide any of those raw materials and manufacture them at a price at which they can be disposed of? I do not suggest that the Taoiseach can answer these questions when replying, but perhaps they may be looked into.

The Taoiseach

I agree with the Leader of the principal Opposition that in the case of a technical report of this sort it would be desirable that copies should be given at least to the leaders of Parties in advance so that they would have time to study it. In fact, it would probably be a better practice if we could give them well in advance so that notice could be given to the Minister who would be in charge of the Estimate and if any particular points were raised—because they are all highly technical — full information could be obtained and would be available here for the debate. I will take a note of it and suggest that that will be the practice that will be followed in future.

The first thing in regard to this Estimate is to remember that we are dealing with an organisation which was deliberately set up to deal with emergency problems, not long-term problems, but ones of immediate urgency, that needed solution quickly. We had already an organisation supposed to examine long-term problems, that is, the Industrial Research Council. Deputies will remember that when I proposed the setting up of the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau. I indicated that the Minister had been considering the reorganisation of the Industrial Research Council on what appeared to be a better scheme, the idea being to use as far as possible our scientific resources here for the investigation of problems, which would enable better processes to be introduced, particularly in regard to articles where we had raw materials at home. That remains to be done. But the particular Estimate that we are dealing with is for the Emergency Bureau dealing with problems that have arisen because of the emergency and the solution of which was urgent because of the emergency.

I think that some of the criticism, and even some of the suggestions about the future, would not have been made, probably, if that was clearly realised— that we have in existence, and intend to have in the future, a research body in which we will have our scientists at work, so as to improve generally the economic possibilities here. It was suggested, I think, by Deputy Larkin, that in addition to helping us to make the best use of raw materials and improving processes, et cetera, industrial research also is making use at home of the scientific brains of our own people. That is true. As a matter of fact, in this particular case, a number of engineers and some chemists, physicists and technologists, and so on, are being employed by the Bureau during the present time.

There is, of course, in all these cases, a limit and one of the difficulties about any research organisation set up by the State is that, if they are to work, they must be taken largely on trust. One cannot judge by means of an annual report of the value of the work that has been done by an organisation of that kind. They have to be given a considerable amount of freedom. In fact, I do not think it would be possible for the present Bureau to work at all if it were restricted in its operation by the close financial control that is associated generally with Government enterprises. Of course, we have the duty to see that we get the best possible value for the money that is expended. That is the trouble. How do you know when you are getting good value? You cannot know it immediately. Sometimes the negative results that are reached are more important even than the positive results. They save you from wasting time and energy working along a certain direction when it can be definitely proved to you that there is no point in moving in that direction, that it is bound not to give you any effective or useful results. So that it is very difficult, in defending the expenditure of money on an organisation of this sort, to prove to anybody who wanted to doubt it, that you were really getting good value for your money. The list of successful things that have been done is the only test that I can give at the moment though, as I have indicated, it would be a very unsatisfactory test. I think there has been a list of successes achieved sufficient to let us feel that, in the present time, we have, through the existence of this Bureau, been able to lighten some of the difficulties which the emergency has brought upon us.

Naturally, in an organisation of this kind, when giving it work we take the most pressing problems first. One of the principal problems involved here was the question of transport. The matter of transport was one of our greatest difficulties, and I think that, in a time like the present, we should not take a standard as to whether prices are competitive or not. There are certain things which we could not get at the present time at any price. If these things could be procured at home, then we could estimate their value in a sort of absolute way, but, as things are, we have nothing with which to compare them. Deputy Dockrell, for instance, suggests that the acid test is the price at which such commodities can be produced and sold here, but take, for instance, the cost of the production of turf charcoal: if we can produce more of that type of fuel, then we can get more buyers and, therefore, so far as the use of turf charcoal is concerned. I think I am right in saying that the trouble is that we cannot produce as much of it as could be used, and the price is affected in that way. Whether in peace times, when producer plants may go out of use and when petrol is again a competitor, we shall have a different set of conditions, is a matter for conjecture. Undoubtedly, however, whilst it is always an advantage to procure, as far as possible, the raw materials at home, and to have the finished products of these raw materials manufactured at home—not alone because it is to the economic advantage of our own people to have these resources developed in peace times, but also with regard to providing a margin of safety for times of emergency — nevertheless, there is obviously a limit to the extent to which you can go in that direction. For instance, it might be found that the cost of producing these things here at home would be so great that, in fact, it might not be wise — taking the broadest view — in the national interests, to proceed along these particular lines.

Deputies on different sides of the House may differ as to where you should draw the line in this connection. Deputy Dillon, for instance, might draw the line at a very different point from where I should draw it. But I think — and I am sure the Deputy will agree with me — that the line would have to be drawn somewhere, and that there would be a point, in regard to price, beyond which it would be unwise for us to go. However, I do not think that that questions arises here. The fact is that the Bureau has given its attention to the development of things that were not available hitherto except from outside the country. That was the chief concern of the Bureau, and they were not so much concerned as to whether these things could be produced at such a price as people were prepared to pay for them. Deputy Dillon says that turf is only useful as a domestic fuel and, perhaps, for certain commercial plants, in the neighbourhood of the bogs. I admit that that is the first place from which to start. That is only commonsense, and I quite agree with the Deputy's contention, but I am sure that the Deputy would not deny that if we were able to produce turf charcoal economically, and if it could be made available for other purposes it would be our duty to go on and develop its possibilities as far as we could. For instance, I understand that, for the first time, in Turraun, as a result of the installation of the retort there, there will be an opportunity for examination into particular aspects of the various by-products of turf — an examination which has never been made before — and I think the Deputy will admit that we ought to pursue these investigations to the end there, if it is possible to do so, with a view to allowing us to see what use can be made of the various by-products.

Mr. Dillon

Might I interrupt the Taoiseach for a moment to inquire whether the Turraun investigation comprises an investigation into the possibility of extracting tar from turf, because, of course, if we could get domestic supplies of tar, we could have an opportunity of developing a very wide sphere of secondary industries in this country?

The Taoiseach

I am not sure about that. I understand that this was a question of a complete examination into various gases, and so on. My information was that the examination had not been carried to completion so far, and I think we ought to avail of this unique opportunity of pursuing these investigations to completion now. I understand that the retort is turning out something like 14 tons a week of turf charcoal. That, of course, is a very small amount from the point of view of consumption, but the idea was, that when the investigations were finally completed, and if they proved to be successful, this matter would be handed over to the Turf Development Board, or some body such as that, for development on general lines, but we are continuing on with this, so that the investigations of the Bureau may be completed.

Mr. Dillon

Well, the Taoiseach can put a muffle on the clapper of my bell when their investigations are completed.

The Taoiseach

I can assure the Deputy that that was not the intention of my remarks in this regard. Now, with regard to a number of these processes that have been developed, and a number of the investigations that have been undertaken, I myself cannot give any information, except along the general terms of the report, but I should be glad, if any Deputy wishes to put questions as a result of the publication of this report, if he would make use of the procedure of Parliamentary questions to elicit information, and I shall be happy to give as complete an answer as I can give in reply to such questions. I do not think that any good result would be achieved if I were to try to deal with problems of a technical or scientific nature now, since I have not the necessary technical or scientific knowledge which would enable me to deal with these matters now. However, as I have said, if Deputies wish to raise any questions on the report, I shall be very happy to procure replies for them.

With regard to the question of insecticides, I am told that they are being prepared to the extent that the supplies of offal tobacco permit, and I am also informed that, in the matter of the destruction of vermin, the Bureau have helped manufacturers to arrange for the manufacture of rat poison by locating places where supplies could be obtained. Of course, I do not know whether sufficient supplies would be available to meet the demand, but my information is that the Bureau have helped manufacturers to that extent. In the matter of whether the members of the Bureau are examining therapeutic agencies of various kinds, it must be borne in mind that there is also a medical research body who are engaged on medical research, and that there has been a certain development there. In fact, with regard to the treatment of tuberculosis, a suggestion came from a member of the Bureau regarding the investigation of certain drugs and compounds which would be useful in the treatment of that disease, and there was the suggestion that an examination should be pursued in that direction. That also is now attached to the Medical Research Council.

So far as diseases of potatoes, and so on, are concerned, we have, in the college at Glasnevin, a scientific department where investigations of various kinds are carried on. If there were to be a development along those lines, I think that somehow it would be better to co-ordinate our various agricultural experiments, and have them undertaken there, instead of taking such problems into our present Bureau. I have a list here of some of the people engaged in these investigations. They include five engineers, some assistant engineers, a botanist and a technologist, all of whom are employed by the Bureau.

I was asked a question by, I think, Deputy Larkin as to what arrangements were made to deal with the possibility of the handing over to a commercial firm, for purposes of exploitation, of the results of discoveries following on investigations by the Bureau. That is a matter which has given me a certain amount of concern, but up to the present we have not had any particular case where development on a large scale was involved. Up to the present, where experiments or investigations have been undertaken at the instance of a particular firm, and where they have been successful and are going to be developed by the firm, the practice has been to charge the firm what seems a reasonable fee, representing a portion of the amount that it costs the Bureau to perform the investigation. It is quite clear that if we were working in normal times and bigger results were being achieved, which would mean exploitation by a firm, a question would arise whether, after undertaking the investigation, you would make the results generally available to anybody who cared to use them, whether you would let competition play its part, seeing that public money had been used to carry on the investigation, and whether you would publish your results and let anybody who cared carry on the development.

Another view might be taken. Let us suppose that a particular instrument or a particular process was developed which was going to be of extreme value and that it was thought that some of the money that had been spent on its investigation might be recovered from its exploitation, clearly there is a case in which some scheme would have to be worked out by which the patent rights would be vested in the State or in somebody representing the State. It is a matter that has given me, personally, a good deal of concern but so far we have not had any case where it was felt that any undue advantage was given to a particular firm by the State's activities. I take it that is the Deputy's wish, that he was anxious to safeguard the interests of the State. Perhaps that is not the case he wished to bring forward, but he struck that note in my mind, because that is a thing which I was considering. If, as a result of the expenditure of State money, the money of the community, certain processes are developed, even though the community is going to benefit from exploitation of these processes by a particular firm, at the same time one would not like to think that a particular firm was going to get an undue advantage as a result of that. If we are to have the Scientific Research Bureau as a permanent institution we shall have to devise some scheme by which patent rights will be vested either in the Bureau or in the State.

Some arrangements will have to be made, if investigations are undertaken for particular firms, by which they will at least have to pay for such investigations, if they are successful, so that the community as a whole will get fair value for the money spent. If there is no monopoly in question and you publish your results, everybody can compete for the right to exploit them. That is one way out of the difficulty. One particular firm may, however, be better equipped for carrying out the processes than another. I do not think you can prevent that. If you publish the results everybody will know about them. I am just expressing my thoughts on the matter as they occur to me. I agree that some definite scheme will have to be evolved to ensure that if, as a result of State action, certain inventions are brought about or certain processes developed, the community should benefit to the full and not any particular group or individual. I do not know if I have answered all the points raised but if any Deputy wishes to repeat any of these points I shall be glad to avail of the opportunity to deal with them. I think I have answered all those of which I took a note.

Question put and agreed to.