Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Nov 1943

Vol. 91 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Vote 74—Alleviation of Distress.

An Taoiseach

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £200,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1944, chun Maoluithe ar Ghátar de dheascaibh Chogaidh agus Gorta san Eoraip agus san India (maraon le Deontas-i-gCabhair).

That a sum not exceeding £200,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1944, for the Alleviation of Distress due to War and Famine in Europe and India (including a Grant-in-Aid).

Deputies have been supplied with copies of the Estimate, and they will observe that it is divided into two parts—(a) Grant-in-Aid to the Irish Red Cross Society, £100,000; and (b) Advances to the Irish Red Cross Society, £100,000. The Red Cross Society, as Deputies know, was established here a month or two prior to the outbreak of war. It is affiliated with the International Red Cross whose work is known. I am sure, to all Deputies, and it is not necessary for me, therefore, to speak in detail about it. It operates in peace time to alleviate distress, and it is particularly active in endeavouring to alleviate distress caused by war. Shortly after the establishment of this society here, an effort was made to get it throughly organised throughout the country to meet the situation in which we ourselves were placed. The possibilities and value of the organisation were made clear, I think, to everybody, and it is an organisation which has the support of all sections of the people. The work which it has to do in times like the present is tremendous. If money were available it could do far more work than its present means would enable it to do.

I have here the proof of a pamphlet which is about to be issued by the Red Cross Society, asking the Irish people to subscribe to its resources to the extent of £500,000. In asking for that money, it points out the conditions that have already obtained as a result of this war in various parts of the world. It points out, in particular, the conditions that are likely to obtain in Europe when this war ends. I feel certain that the appeal which is about to be launched will be responded to very generously by our people. We have every reason to be thankful to Almighty God for having saved us from the miseries which war has brought upon many other nations at the present time, and I feel that our citizens, acting individually out of their resources, will show their gratitude for that and will make available, as far as possible, funds to enable this organisation to help suffering humanity in any part of the world where the greatest need may arise and in which its help can be most effective.

It will take some time for this organisation to build up the necessary funds. Already there is urgent need, so I am coming here to the Dáil, to ask, in the first place, that a sum of £100,000 be given to them, immediately, as a gift from the State— which, of course, means a gift from the members of the community as a whole. There is an almost immediate need, as I will indicate later, for that sum of money for a special-purpose. I am asking also that, in advance of the appeal which they are making to private individuals, there be made available a credit on which they can draw if there is urgent need for relief in Europe or anywhere else. A sum of £100,000 will be needed almost immediately for India.

It does not require very much imagination to see the misery of countries over which armies have passed. You can picture two armed forces, occupying a long line across a country. According as one army advances into that country and drives the defenders there back, the unfortunate population in that particular area have to fly before them, leaving their homes and taking only a few belongings with them. Very soon, they have to discard those few belongings, with the weariness of the march, and, finally, they are left with only what they are wearing. Anybody who read the accounts of the position in Belgium or France at certain periods of this war, knows what a helpless, hopeless mass refugees in that position are. If you look at the map of the war fronts to-day, you see the territories over which armies have passed and repassed, and you can conceive what must have been the position of the millions of people who inhabited those areas. I think I saw somewhere a figure of 40,000,000 as the number of people who, in one way or another, in this war have had to leave their homes.

When armies occupy territory, their immediate concern is the success of their arms. The ordinary civilian life and civilian organisation is disrupted, its mode of transport is disorganised, or is being used definitely for military purposes, and the transport of the commodities required in ordinary daily life has ceased. If the movement of armies over the territory takes place in the springtime, no crops can be sown; if it takes place when the crops have been sown, they are often destroyed—partially, at any rate; and if it takes place during the harvest time, the harvest cannot be reaped. It is certain that millions have suffered, and that the starvation, hardships and privations of various kinds have ended very often in death. It is not surprising that there should be conditions of semi-starvation in large parts of Europe, and death by famine to tens of thousands in other parts of Europe. It is very hard to get anything like trustworthy figures, but I understand that tens of thousands have died from starvation—for example, in Greece. In other parts of Europe, also, there may have been something of the same kind. In regard to Russia, I have not been able to get satisfactory accounts, but it requires very little imagination and very little knowledge of war to realise that there must be famine conditions, and the pestilence that follows those conditions, over a very large part of Europe to-day.

Only yesterday, or the day before, I received a telegram from Calcutta, telling the conditions that obtain there, and asking for substantial financial help. We know that in Bengal, for example, there are tens of thousands of deaths—to put it without any exaggeration. An appeal is being made to us to help. The Red Cross Society would be the natural organisation to give any national aid that we could give. The Red Cross Society has given a very small sum already to the Indian Red Cross, and I thought it only right that we should make available for them a reasonably substantial sum that they could send immediately to their aid.

In cases of starvation, of course, money does not seem to be the most effective thing—you cannot eat notes, you cannot eat cash—so one thinks immediately of sending food. We are not in a position to send food, but our Red Cross Society inquired from the Indian Red Cross whether, if a contribution were made in money, it could be utilised to get food for the starving people there. The reply was that it could.

It has been suggested—and I have spoken about this, naturally, to my colleagues in the Government and to some other members of the House— that we, ourselves, perhaps, could purchase the food and send it or get it sent. If we were able to do that, there is no doubt that the Indian Red Cross, through its connections, would also be able to get it. They would also be able to purchase the food, if we could do so, and they would get it, probably, more expeditiously than we would. Consequently, the purpose of this first £100,000 is to put our Red Cross Society in funds, so that they may make this contribution to relieve the conditions that obtain at the present time in India. I feel that every member of the House will be in favour of making this contribution. It is, of course, only a small contribution, although it is substantial enough from the point of view of our resources. It can do very little to relieve the misery that obtains but, at any rate, it indicates an effort on our part to do something, the best we can. I do not believe there will be any opposition to making this sum available.

We will have other demands. In this pamphlet that is about to be issued I see a list indicating the help that has already been given to a number of Red Cross Societies in other countries. Included in the list are China and Finland and, following the disaster in Turkey, there have been contributions made. I do not want to say they were large in amount, but they were as large as the resources available for the Red Cross at the moment would permit. At the end of this war there will be an appalling situation facing Europe, and we think our Red Cross ought to be in a position in which it will be able to give some substantial aid. We do not know when an occasion for this may occur. For instance, this particular appeal came rather suddenly; we were not expecting it. In just the same manner other appeals may come before the Red Cross drive has brought into its funds the sums that will be needed. It is desirable, therefore, that we should make something available to meet cases of urgency before they get their £500,000, which I hope they will get. Before they do get it, I think it is well that they should have a certain sum made available to their credit from the Exchequer here.

I feel certain every Deputy will support this Vote. I hope that there will go out from this House, from all Deputies, an appeal to our people to contribute generously to the funds of the Red Cross, so that this section of that great international humanitarian organisation may be in a position to do its share in relieving distress.

Mr. W.T. Cosgrave

There is in this country widespread regret and sympathy for the terrible conditions which are, unfortunately, prevalent in India, and I expect it may be taken for granted that there will be unanimous agreement in the country regarding any useful help that we can give, within our means, towards the alleviation of the awful distress, the suffering and disease which have afflicted the community in Bengal. In our desire to be of some assistance, it appears to me that it is incumbent upon us to see that this money will effect the purpose we have in mind. The Red Cross Society in this country is of very recent growth; its members are inexperienced; a few years could not possibly give them that wide range of experience which organisations of much longer standing have.

It strikes me that the best method by which real assistance can be given in this case is to avail of the good offices of the central organisation of the Red Cross in Geneva. It may be the Taoiseach has some information regarding the Red Cross in India. I have none. It may be much older than our own Red Cross; it may be much more recent. I know nothing whatever about it, but I think whatever efforts are being made to deal with a catastrophe such as this which has struck India would be better attended to if it were dealt with in a central manner rather than to have a whole series of bodies perhaps rivalling each other, and perhaps in their zeal leaving out of consideration some particular sections of the community. However, that is a matter of detail, but while on it I might say that in my experience of the administration of charitable funds, well meaning benevolence is no criterion of efficiency, or of properly effecting the purpose which is in the consciences of those who so generously subscribe. People without experience waste money in some cases.

With regard to the second item, I think it is unwise to have it on this Vote. I did not gather from the Taoiseach that there had been any application from the Irish Red Cross for this money. I take it that, in a case of this sort, one would at least expect that an application would come from such a body. Unless I am entirely mistaken, or it may be that I did not hear the Taoiseach correctly, no information with regard to a request of that sort was put before the House. The Red Cross in other countries is seperate from the Government, so far as I am aware, and is entirely a philanthropic body, working out its own salvation and not dependent upon, or deriving any of its funds from, the central Government.

I do not know whether it is intended to have a departure from that policy here. In my experience, people usually exercise a greater care over moneys which they have to acquire than over moneys which are showered upon them. In this case we are giving £100,000 and we expect to get repayment. We ought to be repaid. We do not expect to arrest members of the Red Cross Society if we are not paid. It may possibly interfere with the efficient working of that organisation if we now start to spoon-feed it.

One of the matters I intend to raise briefly on the Taoiseach's Vote is what efforts, if any, are being made to deal with the post-war situation in Europe. Those countries that have been out of the war, the countries that can afford it, owe a duty to humanity. They should come forward and render some assistance. I rather think that assistance by way of cash is not altogether what is required; I think what would be more necessary is the provision of essential foods in those places where such provision is urgently required. I think it would be well to allow the Red Cross itself to work out its own salvation with regard to this matter. The members of that body have undertaken a noble work. It is onerous work, but we ought to distinguish clearly between what is their work and what the State is going to do. If it is thought desirable—and I think it is very desirable; it is almost our duty— that, at the conclusion of the war, we should be called upon as a State to make our contribution towards the alleviation of distress, of want and of starvation, and to arrest the ravages of disease, and to give medical aid of any sort or kind—the Red Cross Society is unequal to that onerous duty—then it is for the State to do that. I do not think it is right to mix up the two matters. I think it would be better if a single Vote were put down to deal with the one matter before us, and leave the other to be dealt with in its normal course.

Mr. Norton

This is a rather unusual Estimate, but, of course, we are living in unusual times. The unusuality of the times is indicated by the fact that practically the entire world is at war now. A great part of it, perhaps, has been at war for the past few years. It is quite natural, therefore, that in a circumstance of that kind many parts of the world would be suffering privation, distress and famine, as well as from the equally inevitable consequences of these evils—pestilence. I think it was with feelings of horror and profound regret that the people of this nation learned of the catastrophe which is overwhelming India to-day. A very large portion of India occupied by, approximately, 60,000,000 people is in the grip of famine.

We in this country ought to know what famine means. The famine of 1847 left a mark on this country and on its people, on its industries and on its development, and that mark is with us to-day, and will probably be passed on to many other generations of Irishmen and women. But in that famine of 1847 we had, thank God, many friends, some of them far-away friends. I understand that the records of assistance which we got at that time will show that many people then resident in India contributed generously to the relief of famine in the Ireland of 1847. It is India's turn to-day. We at this distance, are not competent to judge the cause of the famine there or to suggest remedies which are likely to be immediately efficacious. All we do know is that hunger, which is the enemy of mankind throughout the world, stalks through India to-day. Men, women and children suffer from its evils, and women and children, unfortunately, as is usual, suffer most.

If this war has demonstrated one thing more than another, it is the interdependent character of nations and of races. We here in Ireland, thank God, have been spared the horrors of the world war. We have been spared the privations, the devastation and the relentless desolation which engulf many parts of the world to-day, and I think that in thanksgiving for the safety which has so far been ours, and recognising that large portions of the world are suffering want and distress to-day, we ought, as a nation, with our well-known love of humanity, show our sympathy with suffering mankind elsewhere by contributing according to our resources to the relief of the destitution which abounds in the world to-day.

We could, of course, adopt another attitude. We might take the isolationist attitude and say that India's problems, and the world's problems, in respect of hunger and want, mean nothing to our people here. That would not be the Irish attitude. Ireland cannot, in the crisis which now confronts the starving millions throughout the world, turn a deaf ear to those pleas of starving and dying men and women in many countries in the world to-day. I think that with out entering into the details of this Estimate, or the manner in which the money is to be disbursed, our duty as an Irish Legislature is to say definitely that it is in accordance with our concepts of freedom, in accordance with our concepts of Christianity and in accordance with our concepts of human dignity, that we should provide help for the men, women and children who are being mentally and physically crucified by famine in India and in other parts of the world to-day. It is because the Labour Party holds this view about the contribution which Ireland must make, and is in duty bound to make, to the relief of distress throughout the world and to the easement of human burdens, that we support this Estimate.

Mr. Donnellan

Quite a lot has been said on this Estimate both by the Leader of Fine Gael and the Leader of the Labour Party. Speaking on behalf of the farmers, I want to join with them in saying that we are as anxious as they are that this Vote should go through with as little discussion as possible. We are a charitable people. We have God, and God alone, to thank for the fact that our country and perhaps our people are not in the same position as the peoples of other countries. Those peoples are in that position through no fault of their own, and it is on that account, and on that account alone, from the national and humanitarian point of view that I expect this House will unanimously agree to this Vote.

My friend, Deputy Cosgrave, has raised a point about the Red Cross. I fully agree with the Taoiseach that there is no other way of doing what is being proposed. I am quite sure that the Minister will see that there is the right type of Red Cross Society in India to administer this money in the way that this House and the Irish people want to see it administered. After all, we could not do what we desire in any other way. We cannot deal with the Government of India in the matter nor with the Mayor of Calcutta. It is only through some charitable organisation that this can be done, and the Red Cross is a charitable organisation.

There is one point that, perhaps, I should not mention, but I feel bound to do so. We, on this side, feel, as regards sub-head B of the Estimate— Advances to the Irish Red Cross Society—that the sum set out is more or less of a loan, and that its repayment is more or less expected. I want to give this word of warning, that when you give a loan to a charitable organisation it is very hard to get it back. Speaking for the members on these benches, I think that we should treat sub-head B in the same way as it is proposed to treat sub-head A. Deputy Cosgrave has already made the point, that the Red Cross Society should be allowed to carry on. We must realise that they want the money. Perhaps the money is required in a hurry. The Red Cross organisation is out to collect £500,000 in this country, and I hope they will get it. It is the work of every Irishman to help to get that money. It is wanted suddenly and, for that reason, I say this £100,000 should be put into the hands of the society immediately, so that they can distribute it, because what is given early and what is given with goodwill is given twice over.

Mr. Dillon

We in Ireland have in the past been familiar with famine, and we are naturally torn with the desire to go to the aid of those smitten by that disease to the limit of our resources. Therefore, I echo the confidence expressed by the Taoiseach, by the Leader of the Opposition, and by other Deputies who spoke on this Vote, that this will receive the unanimous approval of the House. I especially welcome the Taoiseach's animadversion on the fact that relief in the form of money may not be the most effective way to meet the situation that obtains, and that were it in our power to send food or materials we would gladly do so. Of course, there is the question of transport and distance, so that the surmounting obstacles may best be achieved by the body specially designed for the relief of distress on the spot. In these circumstances I fully appreciate that money is the only way that we can offer help, and that the sum here provided is commensurate with our resources, or we would wish to send more. When I come, however, to sub-head B, I do not wish to cavil over the propriety of joining it with the purpose set out in sub-head A. I feel it incumbent on me to say something, which, perhaps, may not be very acceptable to those who hear it. I fully appreciate how thankless a task it is for prominent men and women to undertake the organisation of a great relief organisation such as the Red Cross Society in this country. So long as their efforts meet with success the results will very largely pass unnoticed, but, in so far as their exertions fail to achieve the desired end, abundant publicity will illuminate their failure, and they will be widely called to account.

Bearing all that in mind I suggest that if the organisation comes to Dáil Eireann to ask for such a very substantial sum as £100,000, even as a loan, it should be in a position to satisfy the community as a whole that the work they have undertaken to do is being done with maximum efficiency. I am not in a position to judge how far the organising activities of the Irish Red Cross have been attended with success. I do know that in other countries where the organisation is longer established, notably the United States of America, it has become a very highly efficient organisation for relief. I am bound to say, so far as my information goes, the organisation in this country has tended, certainly in many rural areas with which I am familiar, to dwindle away. Branches have been started with great enthusiasm, considerable numbers have been enrolled, brisk activity has been embarked upon, but in the passage of time the whole thing has wilted slowly away. It may be different in other parts. I think we should be clear in our minds as to what future the Red Cross Society has laid out for itself in this country. Does it intend to be the channel through which this community will feel free to make contributions to neighbouring countries in need, such as we are doing in regard to Bengal, or does it intend to maintain an active organisation throughout the country?

I should imagine that the maintenance of activity through the country should be the first concern. If that is so, it would be well if some other occasion were taken to communicate to the country at large what measures of success have attended its efforts so far. Making every allowance for the youth of the movement, and for the special difficulties with which it has had to labour, has the best value that could be expected been secured from the expenditure of whatever money was expended? While expressing warmest appreciation of the efforts of those who undertook the responsibility of organising the society in this country, and while I desire to emphasise in public that everyone recognises the difficulties with which the organisation had to contend in the early stages, I think the society has reached a stage when it should face boldly the fact that results must be expected if large sums are to be subscribed.

As there is an appeal for £500,000 for the Irish Red Cross, this would be an appropriate period for a review of the work done and the measure of success that attended its efforts. Might I suggest that in making that report such failure as may have been encountered should not be minimised? Any failure should be boldly and clearly stated, so that those who have seen failure, and know its dimensions, should learn that the central executive was aware of the failure, and was quite prepared to ventilate it fully, evaluate it calmly. By recalling frankly what it believed to have been its successes and permanent achievements, public confidence would be strengthened and confirmed and the appeal for this £500,000 would be sped on its way in the most effective possible manner. I rejoice to think that the Red Cross has been established in this country. I hope it will develop and have the support of all sections of the community. I am satisfied that if its executive takes the whole community into its confidence, it will have from the community maximum cooperation. I have no doubt that the men and women who have accepted responsibility for the direction of this movement in the country did not under-estimate the magnitude of the burden they were taking up when they accepted responsibility, and I think most sections of our community will agree that the public character of those who have accepted these burdens is calculated to create confidence in those who looked to them for substantial results in the years to come. Frankness will purchase confidence from the public, and I invite the Red Cross movement in this country, on the eve of their appeal, to give the community at large a general review of their achievements and failures to date, so that we may embark on the new departure with every hope of permanent and enduring success.

Mr. Larkin

If there is anything which justifies one's appreciation of the humanitarian sensibilities of our people, it is the action, too long delayed, may I say, of the Taoiseach to-day. When I came in here and got this notification that the Government, at last, after many weeks, had risen to an appreciation of the needs of the multitudes of enslaved peoples in British India, I thought that at last there was some justification for their continuance as a Government. It is a most gracious gesture. I do not think this is a fitting time or place to discuss the question of the organisation of the Irish Red Cross Society, its energy or lack of energy, its competence or incompetence, but as one who, for the last few weeks, has been associated with individuals of different opinions in this country in an effort to get even the ear of the public on this matter, I am deeply gratified that the spokesman of the Irish race is sending a word of comfort and making a gesture of help to the enslaved millions in British India.

Some weeks ago, the Trades Council of Dublin, as subscribers to the Red Cross funds, passed a resolution calling upon the Red Cross Society to make a gesture, knowing the limited amount of their funds, to these people. It took them nearly a fortnight to make the gesture—I suppose, the utmost of their power—and they sent £2,000 to Calcutta. The resolution was sent to the Press, but we found there was no room in some of the papers for even that resolution. Some of them were very careful to censor its format— references to Calcutta went in but references to where Calcutta lay were not printed.

I do not propose to take advantage of this opportunity to cast reflections upon any nation or upon any Government, but when my friend, Deputy Donnellan, takes to himself some particular honour as being the chosen of God, I say that I think God loves all His children, irrespective of the localities in which they were born or of the nations to which they belong. Sometimes He chastens some of us and at other times we are not called upon to receive the chastisement we deserve. If there is any nation which has been apathetic and lacking in responsiveness during the purgatorial years since 1939, surely it is this nation. We have stood apart from and above the struggle, and some time ago when poor unfortunate working-class people were being "blitzed" in London, the trade union movement, and particularly in Dublin, tried to make a gesture to our comrades who were going through that terrible experience. We went to the Government and asked them to allow us to take the children of our own people—many of them our own blood and of our own nation—and comfort them in our own homes. After seven weeks, we got a direct negative from the Government official. They would not allow us even to bring in our own and give them comfort and sustenance temporarily.

I am glad that the minds of these men have been changed, and that their hearts have turned to the needs of this great mass of suffering humanity in India. Two thousand people were dying daily, not in the hospitals, but on the streets of Calcutta, and we gave them no gesture of comfort, but now, after ten weeks when the death rate has gone down. I understand, to something like 200 a day, from famine and disease, this Government has risen to the occasion. Do not let us quarrel about the repayment of this £100,000. We cannot measure our love of humanity in terms of pounds, shillings and pence. It is not worthy of us, and I am glad that the Leader of the Labour Party mentioned, in passing, what some of the people of India did in the way of a gesture in '47, and the early part of '48. Sometimes we forget what has been done for us in the years past. I am glad also that Deputy Dillon referred to the Americas, though not, as he might have done, in some eloquent phrase worthy of the project before us. I cannot, however, understand Deputy Cosgrave's quarrelling about the form of the gesture. I know that he is just as deeply stirred by the emotional values of the action of the Taoiseach as any of us, but why quarrel to-day about its form or about the competence or incompetence of any organisation?

Let us all together agree that this has been too long delayed. We cannot give these people food out of our own store, because we have not got it, because we are subject to the same selfishness on the part of a certain section of our people as those unfortunate victims in Calcutta, Madras, and other parts of British India. This position is not at all confined to Bengal. There are three other provinces in a desperate condition. Yet, there is plenty of food in India, and we have seen published in the Press the menu of an 11 course dinner to which certain members of the governing classes sat down, while the unfortunate subject people were dying for lack of the pennyworth of rice which in Calcutta would keep a man, his wife and five children. These people ate all kinds of luscious foods, while bands played, and while unfortunate human beings were dying outside. In our own country we lack food because of selfishness and narrowness, and because of an unwillingness to labour on the earth which will give us back that abundance of yield which we can gain from it by united and co-ordinated effort.

The narrowness represented by the governing classes of Bengal and Calcutta is also represented even in this country. What was done for our countrymen in Donegal when 19 or 20 lives were lost by an unfortunate mischance? Look at the amount subscribed to comfort those who were bereaved. The day of repentance is due in this country, a day at least for consideration of all our sins of omission and commission, and it would be a good thing if we set apart one day, under the advice of the Government, and called upon this nation to remember—and, by the way, it is very opportune, as this is a day of remembrance —the many millions who cast their lives away in 1914-18—we have the deepest respect for them all, no matter from what nation they came—and also those of our own people who gave up all they could in the later years.

I suggest to the Taoiseach that he should go further and ask the nation to hold a day of remembrance on which every one of us, to the limit of our means, would subscribe in order to raise this £250,000 in one day. We can do it if we want to do it. We know that we cannot send food from here. But what about utilising our credits in the Argentine, or in some other great grain-growing countries, and sending the grain from there in bottoms chartered there? Wicked as the people of the world are in their vicious hatred of each other, no Government would stand in the way of allowing ships loaded with grain to leave those countries which have got a superfluous quantity. There is any amount of grain to be had in the Argentine. Why not try and do that directly through our own agent there?

I want to say to the Taoiseach, notwithstanding my differences with him, that from my knowledge of his activities from boyhood to manhood I think this is one of the noblest gestures he personally has made. I think everybody is comforted by the fact that he has the approval of the Government behind him. I put to him the suggestion I have made to ask the nation to set aside a day of remembrance in order to make a contribution to the noblest work that men can undertake. This effort you are making will put this nation's name amongst the nations of the earth.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

In looking over this Vote, I do not know that it is wise to have the halving arrangement because, as some speakers have said, when an advance of money is made one, at any rate, theoretically looks for it to be repaid. If we have any reservations, now is the time to mention them. Nobody would suggest that this sum, substantial though it is for this country, should not be applied to any one of the areas looking for relief from the distress due to war and famine. If every penny of it were given to India, for instance, no one could say that it was too large a sum to give, having regard to the distress prevailing. Although, perhaps, one does not like it, I do not see any other way of giving this help except in money, because, although one would like to send the relief in kind—and that is the way that people want it most—we have not got the food to spare here and we have not got the ships in which to send it out. If, for instance, we make a purchase of food for India, we have no guarantee that it will be shipped in time to reach the sufferers. Presumably, the people on the spot can make the most effective use of the funds at their disposal. No matter how these funds reach them, I am afraid it is the only way to do it. I remember talking to an old lady who, during the Famine of '47, distributed bread from a pony to the sufferers-That bread was made from grain which had arrived in ships in the south. One probably could not cavil if the Red Cross choose to give the whole of this to India. At the same time, there is the whole of Europe to be considered as well. The Taoiseach mentioned Greece. I do not know, just as he does not know, whether the people of Greece are the greatest sufferers, or how you can pretend to put a sort of yard-stick to the distress prevailing. But, when the period of emergency ends and peace comes again, no one would suggest that this appeal will be the only one that will reach us. I do not know how far the Taoiseach and the Government have considered this matter from that point of view.

At the present time there is an organisation called the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration. Do the Taoiseach and the Government intend to stand aloof from that?—because now is the time to consider what channel we should select. There is this much to be said about distributing charity—I call it charity, but I hope that any person who gets it will not think that I mentioned that word in any disparaging way—that if the people who are distributing relief can get together, the wider the field and the more contacts they have with other people, distributing probably far greater amounts either in money or in kind, the better chance there is of the money reaching the most deserving. I think it would be a great pity if, through non-co-operation with other nations distributing relief, we found afterwards that our money had not been distributed to the very best advantage. I think the responsibility is on the Taoiseach and the Government to see if any conditions should be imposed in regard to this grant. Although it could all be sent to India. I would not like someone to say: "You sent every penny of your charity to India and you have not a halfpenny left for Europe." No doubt the Taoiseach will consider that matter. I do not know whether he can make any pronouncement on that before this Vote passes, but I put forward the suggestion.

Mr. Cogan

It is gratifying that every Party in the House is unanimous in making this contribution towards the alleviation of distress in India and other countries. We do not make this contribution in any spirit of vainglorious condescension. Having regard to the magnitude of the calamity which has overtaken the people of India, we recognise that this is quite a small contribution. As the Taoiseach pointed out, it may be as much as we can afford at the moment. But we realise that it is only very little having regard to the magnitude of the problem. We make this contribution fully realising how much this nation of ours has owed to the generosity of other countries in the past. We make it realising how other nations have contributed towards aiding our people in days of distress and suffering. We make it realising, also, that it may come to our turn again in the future to have occasion to call upon the generosity of other peoples. No individual can tell what suffering or what calamity may befall him before he passes out of life. Neither can any nation or community forecast the sufferings or tribulations that may befall them. We may, by the exercise of prudence and energy, be able to avert the pangs of hunger or famine, but there are other evils attendant upon a major war such as we are passing through, namely, plague and pestilence. We know that after the last European war this nation was swept by a plague which sent hundreds of our young men and women to early graves and we may anticipate with fear and trembling what may happen when this emergency is over or before it is over. In the event of such a calamity overcoming this nation, it would be well for us to be able to reflect that, in time of distress for other nations, we came to their aid and, on that basis, can appeal for assistance in our own misfortunes.

I am quite satisfied that the contribution embodied in this Vote for the relief of distress in India is justified, and also the advance made to the Red Cross, because we cannot foresee how soon the funds of the Red Cross may be urgently required to relieve distress in some nation other than India and it is most desirable that funds should be placed at the disposal of that organisation in order to meet an immediate demand. The war at the moment appears to be rushing to its climax and it is, therefore, only natural to expect distress and suffering, with consequent urgent demands on the resources of the Red Cross organisation in the near future.

The Taoiseach

Perhaps I should speak about the matter to which Deputy Cosgrave referred, namely, the question of the advance. Before I do so, however, perhaps I should talk more generally about this whole situation as far as we are concerned. I should prefer by far that aid of this kind, so far as it was at all possible to do it, should come as a result of individual subscriptions by the members of our community to a fund such as this. I believe that that is the right way to do it. In that way you will have no doubt that those who are contributing are those who are able to contribute. When the Government makes contributions, these contributions have ultimately to come out of taxation and you are, so to speak, forcing people to give their mite without their own will coming directly with it. If they gave that mite themselves it would be of much more value for the individual and of much more value in general. Consequently, we postponed taking action of this kind until I felt we could not postpone it any longer.

The Red Cross is going out to ask the individuals of this country who can afford to make subscriptions to give these subscriptions willingly, and even to give it to such a point that it will hurt—as was the phrase used when we were getting subscriptions for our cause in America—to give to such an extent that it will really be a sacrifice, and that they will feel that they are doing something of themselves to help this cause. When we vote money in this particular way we do not have that. The word "gesture" has been used here a number of times. There is that to it. There is a gesture of understanding, showing that the organised community as represented here has an understanding of the situation. But, from the point of view of our people generally, I think it would be very much better that the amounts that are contributed should come as a result of voluntary subscriptions by our people.

As I have already indicated, this particular Vote has come before the Dáil as a result of a telegram which I got a few days ago. The telegram was this:—

"Bengal's 60,000,000 in grip of unprecedented tragic famine. Epidemics exacting heavy tolls in rural areas. Children, women worst affected. Mayor's fund rendering medical aid, catering free meals for children diet on extensive scale. Eagerly expect best co-operation to save human lives. Substantial financial help imperative."

Mr. Larkin

By whom is it signed?

The Taoiseach

It was sent to me signed by the Mayor of Calcutta. Here was a direct request. Up to the present the Red Cross have taken action. As I indicated already, they had asked the Indian Red Cross whether financial aid would be of value to them, in other words, whether they could distribute food if they got financial aid, and they were told that any financial help that was sent would be very gladly received.

The message from the Mayor of Calcutta and the reply sent to the Red Cross indicated quite clearly that there was a way in which we could help, because our efforts so far to help in kind have not been, to say the least of it, very satisfactory. We found it almost impossible. Although, as Deputy Larkin has pointed out, there are other countries where it could be available, it is not so easy to get it. It is not so easy to get the ships. Therefore, here was a case where we were able to give help. We were told by the people asking for the help that we could help, and I felt this was a case in which we could take action. I realised that the Red Cross Funds, as they are at present, are such as made it impossible for them to give anything that would really be substantial. There was only one way in which that substantial aid could be given quickly and that was by coming to the House and asking for a Vote so as to put them in funds. I think it is the best way. It is better for us to do any international work we possibly can through the recognised international organisation of the Red Cross, of which our own Red Cross Society is a branch than to be trying to set up ad hoc bodies to do it, or to be seeking to do it by some other organisations. Therefore, it seemed to me that the only way in which I could reply worthily to that telegram, from the Irish people's point of view, was to come here to the House and ask that a substantial sum should be made immediately available to the Red Cross so that, when needed, it could be sent to the Indian branch of the Red Cross. That has been established since 1929 and has been recognised by the Central International Red Cross Organisation at Geneva. It is a part of the international Red Cross organisation, and, in my opinion, it is obvious that the most appropriate body to take charge of and distribute any funds that we might be able to make available would be the Indian Red Cross Society, as they would be in the best position to decide how the money should be allocated. Accordingly, I come to this House, in the first instance, to get this sum of £100,000 so that the Red Cross can get that money to enable them to send it, in answer to that appeal from the people of India.

I realise, of course, that, perhaps to-morrow, a similar case may arise. We do not know. There may be other appeals of a similar kind to which we should respond. Again, the only way in which the Government could deal with such an appeal would be to hand over whatever sums might be available to the Red Cross, and in that case I would have to come to the House, as I have done to-day, and ask for an allocation to be made. Therefore, the object of the second part here is to put the Red Cross immediately in funds, so that they will be in a position to deal with situations as they arise, since the funds have been provided already. That is the reason for the second part here.

I may say that, even before it was necessary to bring this matter to the attention of the House, I was concerned as to whether we should not have another sum made available for the relief of distress in Europe and other countries. There is another point to be considered also. The Red Cross organisation has to plan its activities ahead, and now, at any rate, as far as planning ahead is concerned, they will be able to carry out some of their plans, in the certain knowledge that they have a definite amount of £100,000 which can be availed of the moment it is required. Actually, I expect that the Red Cross organisation will not ask for that money unless there is an immediate need for it, but the fact that they know that that amount is to their credit will enable them to deal with any emergencies that may arise. In that connection, however, I hope that nobody in this country will take that as an excuse for not making his personal contribution. Every one of us has a duty to ourselves, and to humanity, so to speak, in the present situation, and I do hope that this appeal which is going out from the Red Cross will be taken seriously by every person in this country.

I am sorry that I have not the eloquence of Deputy Larkin to enforce that appeal, but I am making it sincerely, and making it with the full responsibility of my position. I am asking the Irish people, who have been helped in their hours of necessity by other peoples, to make as generous a contribution as they can, so as to make available as quickly as possible this 500,000 pounds which the Red Cross is looking for. It is true that our own Red Cross is a relatively new organisation, and that organisation has had to be built up during a very difficult period. At the time that our Red Cross was trying to form its branches and build up a membership, do not forget that we were appealing to all the most active and energetic people in the country to get in, either to the permanent military forces or to the various auxiliary defence forces, such as the L.D.F., the L.S.F., the A.R.P., or the fire-fighting organisations. We were appealing to people to join these forces at the same time as we were appealing to people to join the Red Cross. In other words, at the time that our Red Cross was trying to build itself up the most active and energetic elements of our community were being asked to go into other organisations, and it stands to reason that, under these circumstances, the task of organising the Red Cross was rendered very difficult. For instance, the men to whom such appeals were made felt that such work as Red Cross work was more suitable for women, and that their business during a time of crisis was to join the fighting forces. Of course, if that situation had not existed at the time, quite a large number of the people who have been most active in the L.D.F., the L.S.F. or the other military organisations, or even of those who joined the regular Army, would have been most active in the organisation of Red Cross branches in their own particular areas, and I do believe that, under ordinary circumstances, a branch of the Red Cross would have been established in every parish in the country. As it is, however, looking through this pamphlet— you will all be able to see it for yourselves and so I do not propose to take up the time of the House by reading it now — it is quite clear that the Red Cross here have performed a wonderful work of organisation, in view of the circumstances of the time and the difficulties with which they had to contend. They have done a tremendous amount of work in training personnel to meet the sort of danger which threatened our own community here, and that work is still being done. I am perfectly certain that any suggestions with regard to the improvement of the organisation, or any help that can be given, will be accepted gratefully.

For instance, take the case of the help that might be given by members of this House. I do not know to what extent we have helped in the organisation of that body. Speaking for myself, I have to admit that for every nine times I spoke at meetings in connection with recruiting for the military forces — whether the Army itself, the L.D.F., the L.S.F., A.R.P., or allied defence organisations — I only spoke once, perhaps, on behalf of the Red Cross. That, of course, was quite natural, because the main point in most of my speeches in public during the crisis, when dealing with these various organisations, was to build up an efficient fighting and defensive force. That, however, did not mean that I did not fully appreciate the importance of the Red Cross organisation; but when you have only a certain amount of time you, naturally, deal with the point which seems to you to be the most important at the moment, but I do think that if the members of this House would help in getting support and subscriptions for the Red Cross to the same extent as they helped and encouraged other organisations since the emergency, we would have as great a success, so far as the Red Cross is concerned, as we achieved by working together to build up our fighting and defensive organisations.

I have no doubt that, from the national point of view, this Red Cross organisation is the best to which we could entrust such funds as these. With regard to making provision for the post-war period, I am not quite sure that I can see eye to eye with Deputy Cosgrave as to the best way in which our national efforts could be put forward to the best advantage. It may be very difficult for any Government to build up any other organisation than the Red Cross to do such work, and, after all, it appears to me that it would be better to have the Red Cross organisation already organised and equipped so that they would be able to deal with that work; to depend upon them to as great an extent as possible to see that the funds are properly distributed, and to assist them to whatever extent we are capable of, so that when the time comes they will be able to deal with emergencies as they arise. I think we should regard the Red Cross, for the present, as the best organisation through which to give help to other countries, not alone now, but even after the war.

I have considered this question a good deal, and I do believe that, after the war, we will find it exceptionally difficult to make contributions in the way of food. Food has been suggested as one of the contributions that we could make, but I think that we will find that a very difficult problem. Nobody can possibly know when this war is going to end until it is practically over. Then, again, there is the difficulty of building up supplies here of the type that we will find necessary to keep for our own uses. We know that, in the case of some of the belligerent countries in Europe, an organisation has been formed for the building up of supplies which are to be used for the rehabilitation of Europe after the war. At the present time that organisation is confined to the set of belligerents either allied or associated with them. I think the neutral States as such have no part in that organisation, so that it is difficult in advance to be able to form part of a greater organisation. What we must do is to try to fit ourselves so that, when the war ends, we shall be able to give whatever help we can, and give it in the most effective way.

It is not easy at all to make plans in advance which will be reasonably satisfactory, and the question of supplying food is going to be extremely difficult. It has been suggested that we might produce the food ourselves. I think that would be a slower process than leaving it to a body like the Red Cross in India which will be in touch with the International Red Cross, and with the Red Cross in Britain and America. With the resources at their disposal they will be able to get these other bodies to act as agents for them, and to make purchases probably much more quickly than we could make purchases individually ourselves. I should be glad to hear Deputies' views on the type of organisation which they think should be built up. My own feeling at the moment is that we shall have to depend largely on our own Red Cross in co-operation with the International Red Cross and the various national organisations of the Red Cross as the medium through which we shall be able to give any help we can. Naturally, I have listened with interest to this discussion, and I have a very open mind on any suggestions that can be made by Deputies on the opposite benches.

With regard to our own Red Cross, I have the feeling that up to the present it has suffered to no small extent from want of publicity. It has done a great deal of work about which very few people know. I have here a summary of the work that it has done since the war began. So far, it states, it has not been possible for the Irish Red Cross to do direct relief work for other countries with the exception of sending food to Spain. It has been able to help distress in these countries through the medium of the International Red Cross through which it has sent contributions from time to time for purposes which were most urgent. These include the relief of distressed civilians in China, Greece and Finland, earthquake sufferers in Turkey, Polish refugees in Hungary, French refugees and also French, German and Yugoslavian prisoners of war. It has also been able, through the International Red Cross, to help distressed Irish people in the Far East. That shows that, within its means, it has been alive to the distress that exists in various parts of the world. Of course, its means were limited and the amount it was able to give in any individual case would be regarded by the larger countries, whose resources would be 100 times greater than ours, as not very large. But in so far as it has been able within its resources to help, it has been energetic and it has been on the look-out to see where the need is greatest. It is, therefore, getting a training at present which will fit it for the position which we will have to face when the war is over.

I have told you that the Indian Red Cross is representative of the Indian people and, therefore, I think that, so far as distribution and economy of distribution are concerned, there is no better body to whom we could make the moneys available. I am very glad —it is of course only as I expected— that the members of this House, standing for the Irish people, have voted this money and that not a single word has been said against making this sum available. I repeat that I should prefer that the Government had not had to come into this matter at all and that the organisation could rely on voluntary subscriptions. I agree with Deputy Cosgrave to that extent, that it is far better that it should be left to voluntary subscriptions if that could possibly be done. My only reason for breaking that rule is the urgency of this particular case.

Vote put and agreed to.