Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Dec 1943

Vol. 92 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Industry and Commerce.

Mr. Lemass

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim breise ná raghaidh thar £90,000 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun ioctha an Mhuirir na thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1944, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála, maraon le Seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £90,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1944, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including certain Services administered by that Office.

This Supplementary Estimate arises because of the additional amounts required under three sub-heads, which are not related one to the other. The first sub-head is the health embarkation certificate service. As Deputies are aware a number of Irish workers are at present proceeding to employment in Great Britain under arrangements which have been made for the protection of their interests with the British Ministry of Labour and National Service. During the course of the year the British authorities alarmed, I think, at some minor outbreaks of typhus or typhoid which were reported in this country proposed to require workers proceeding to employment in Great Britain to go to centres in that country for medical examination. The Government here considered that regulation undesirable for many reasons, particularly in the interests of the workers themselves, and following consultation with the British authorities, arrangements were made for the medical examination of workers before they left this country. Consequently, the British Ministry of Labour and National Service made regulations which required workers who were proceeding to employment in Great Britain to have health certificates issued by the Department of Local Government and Public Health.

In consequence of that regulation a service was established for the medical examination of workers in this country. Those who are found medically fit are given the certificates. Where necessary, treatment for scabies or lice infestation is given. Those who cannot be regarded as being in a sufficient state of health are refused the certificate, and they are not put to the expense and trouble of travelling to Great Britain before that.

Mr. Norton

Who issues the certificate?

Mr. Lemass

The Department of Local Government and Public Health.

Mr. Norton

Is it issued through the local dispensary officer?

Mr. Lemass

No, through this service. There are medical officers appointed for the purpose. They do the examination in certain hotels in Dublin, and they issue certificates to the workers here. The workers must have them before they are permitted to enter Great Britain.

Mr. Liam Cosgrave

It is only done in Dublin?

Mr. Lemass

It is only done in Dublin, but it applies to all workers.

Mr. Liam Cosgrave

Is there only one centre?

Mr. Lemass

One for men and one for women.

Mr. Hughes

Who provides the treatment centre?

Mr. Lemass

The Dublin Corporation. Facilities already established by the Dublin Corporation are made available for this purpose. These treatment centres already existed in Dublin.

Mr. Norton

We do not get financial assistance from the British Government in respect of this service?

Mr. Lemass

No. I think it is a matter on which we should not request financial assistance.

Mr. Norton

Hear, hear.

Mr. Lemass

The main item in the Vote is an increase in the advances to the Mineral Development and Exploration Company. As Deputies are aware, this company, which was set up to explore and develop the mineral resources of the country, is, during the war, confined to such commercial activities as are concerned with the working of phosphate rock in County Clare, and pyrites in County Wicklow.

The company is financed by means of repayable advances from the Exchequer, and the Act under which it was established put a limit of £50,000 to these advances. By Emergency Powers Orders, that limit was raised to £160,000, and additional funds were made available to the company. It is proposed to regularise the position in the next session of the Dáil by the introduction of amending legislation. That amending legislation will not merely provide for an alteration of the limit in the repayable advances that may be made to the company, but it will also provide for the amalgamation of this company with the other company which was formed for the development of Slieveardagh coal mines. I propose also to change the Irish name of the company from the present rather cumbersome title to something much more simple.

The immediate sum involved in this Supplementary Estimate is required to further the work of mineral exploration and development by the company in relation to the Clare deposits and the Wicklow pyrites. As Deputies are aware certain quantities of phosphate rock were won in County Clare by quarrying operations. The time now has come, however, when it is no longer possible to procure production by means of quarrying, and in order to maintain production of phosphate rock it is necessary to embark upon mining—a much more expensive operation requiring an expansion in the amount of capital invested in the business.

In the case of pyrites, the difficulty which the company is experiencing is due to the fact that only lump pyrites can be utilised in furnaces of the superphosphate manufacturers. The bulk of the pyrites available was in a powder form which these furnaces are not capable of burning. In consequence, the activities of the company in that regard are somewhat restricted. It is not an immediate problem, because we have been able to import fairly substantial quantities of pyrites from Spain. Whether we will be able to import more, or not, is very doubtful, but the stock available in the country is sufficient to secure the utilisation of the quantity of the phosphate rock likely to be available during the coming year. Some 14,000 tons of phosphate rock have been produced by the company in County Clare, and about 500 tons of pyrites have been sold to the sulphuric acid manufacturers.

It will be appreciated by the House, of course, that the activities of the company are related solely to emergency conditions. The quantity of phosphate rock normally imported would be about 100,000 tons per year, and it is probably true to say that the total quantity of it in Clare, so far as it has been revealed by exploration work, is less than a year's normal requirements.

Mr. Dillon

The total deposit?

Mr. Lemass

The total quantity proved to exist. In the present circumstances, where it is very difficult or almost impossible to get supplies of phosphate rock from abroad, and then only with very considerable difficulty and expense, clearly we must make the fullest use of our available resources.

Mr. Norton

Will the mining or quarrying of 100,000 tons in Clare exhaust the entire deposit there?

Mr. Lemass

Possibly. The exploration work is being continued. In so far as it is possible to estimate the quantity of rock there from the borings already made, it is, I think, true to say that 100,000 tons would exhaust the deposit—possibly less. What I wish to point out is that this Clare phosphate activity of the company is an emergency activity only. I do not hold out to the House that there is any prospect of permanent industry to be developed there on the basis of our present knowledge. We have instructed the company to go ahead with this work because, irrespective of other considerations, including cost, the aim was to get the maximum quantity of phosphate rock procurable by any means. The company worked by quarrying, naturally, so long as it was practicable to do so, but now quarrying has exhausted the quantity available by that method, and it is undertaking production by the more expensive method of mining.

In the case of the pyrites in Wicklow; it is of course possible to utilise the powder pyrites in furnaces of a somewhat different type to those at present installed by the chemical manufacturers. There is a possibility of a permanent and successful development in County Wicklow. However, it is not desirable to be more specific than that until a great deal more exploration work has been completed.

The third item is a minor one involving in fact a very much smaller amount of money than that stated in the Estimate. As the House will remember, we had a pavilion at the New York Fair. An English company did certain work in connection with that pavilion. It was necessary for that English company to enter into some contracts and to purchase materials in New York. The Consul-General in New York guaranteed payment for these materials and services by the English company. Against that guarantee, there was withheld from the amount due to the English company the sum of £1,246. In the event, the English company went into liquidation and defaulted in its payments. The amount of the default in our case was £1,258 1s. 1d., against the sum of £1,246 which had been withheld from the company. Furthermore, there was an item of £20 representing goods supplied by an Irish company to this English company for display in the fair, which were neither displayed nor returned to the Irish company, and it has been impossible for that company to obtain redress from the English company which was in default. The cost of these was £20, so that the total liability that is imposed on the State is £1,279. Against that £1,279 there has been, as I stated, £1,246 withheld from the company and the deficit has to be made good by this Vote.

Mr. Norton

What happened the English company?

Mr. Lemass

It went into liquidation.

Mr. Hughes

Might I ask the Minister whether this £160,000 is being utilised merely for the purpose of developing the Clare phosphate and the pyrites in Wicklow or is any portion going to the Slieveardagh Company?

Mr. Lemass

This is a different company altogether. The Slieveardagh coal mines are being developed by another company. I mentioned that it is intended to amalgamate both companies later but that has not been done yet.

Mr. Hughes

The Minister mentioned 14,000 tons. Is that the total production up to date?

Mr. Lemass

It is the total production by this company, but there is another company.

Mr. Hughes

There has been a progressive increase in the output?

Mr. Lemass

There was a progressive increase while quarrying was continued but a stage has now been reached when mining has to be done.

Mr. Hughes

The Minister has referred to the difficulty of using powdered pyrites. The real difficulty I understand is that the Clare phosphate is very hard and that it requires a considerable quantity of sulphuric acid to treat it. I put down a Parliamentary Question to the Taoiseach this week in regard to the manufacture of superphosphates.

An Ceann Comhairle

This company has nothing to do with the manufacture of chemical manures.

Mr. Hughes

But the Vote raises the question——

An Ceann Comhairle

——of production of raw materials.

Mr. Hughes

It raises the question of the wisdom of the methods pursued in the manufacture of superphosphates. I understand that there is a new method now being carried on on the Continent for the manufacture of superphosphate without the use of sulphuric acid. The rock is roasted with alkaline, with the result that soluble phosphates are produced. If this method could be adopted with the Clare rock, in view of the fact that the Clare rock is excessively hard and requires a very substantial quantity of sulphuric acid over and above the amount normally used in the treatment of North African phosphates, it would result in a very considerable saving. This is a matter that should be fully investigated because it would get over the difficulty of the powdered pyrites and the expensive method of breaking down raw phosphates to convert them into superphosphates.

Mr. Norton

I should like some more information from the Minister in connection with the proposed scheme of medical examination for persons who propose to leave the country. I can quite understand that from every point of view, national and international, it is desirable that people should be fully medically examined in order to ensure that there would be no adverse comments when they arrive in another country, but I gather from the Minister's statement that some new type of local government service is being created, and that it is proposed through the medium of this service to examine these persons in Dublin. If their condition is found satisfactory, it is proposed to issue a certificate to them of a clean bill of health, whereupon they can entrain for Great Britain or Northern Ireland, as the case may be. I should like to know something more from the Minister as to the actual operation of this scheme. Does it mean that a man in Kerry or Kildare who gets a permit, a passport or a travel visa, will have to come up to Dublin for that examination?

Mr. Lemass

When he applies at the employment exchange for a permit, he is informed that a health certificate will be required before he enters into Britain. When he applies for emigration facilities, he knows that the medical examination will be necessary.

Mr. Norton

Take the case of a person in Carlow-Kildare who wants to go to England, and applies for a permit. At what stage would he have to undergo the medical examination? If he is examined the night before he leaves, well and good.

Mr. Lemass

That is the position.

Mr. Norton

He will not be brought up for special examination?

Mr. Lemass

The worker from the country arrives about 7.30, and the medical examination takes place immediately. Any treatment that is required for skin disease or lice infestation is given immediately, and he leaves the next morning.

Mr. Norton

Take a case where treatment would be necessary, involving a delay of a couple of days. Would it not be more advantageous to the worker, and perhaps result in a more smooth operation of the scheme, if that person could be examined locally by the dispensary medical officer?

Mr. Lemass

Of course, before the worker is employed a doctor's certificate is required, so that any obvious physical defect is noted but, in addition to that, a doctor's certificate, as a result of this medical examination at the port, is required by the British authorities.

Mr. Norton

Let us take the case of a worker in Kildare who comes to Dublin, arrives at night and is medically examined and who is told by the examining authority: "You will have to undergo treatment for a couple of days." That means that the man has to go back home to undergo treatment because it is impossible for him to remain in Dublin. I am wondering whether it would not be possible to give such a person a medical examination locally so that whatever superficial treatment he might require could be administered locally. He could present himself to the local dispensary officer, who would administer any treatment necessary and thereupon issue a certificate, instead of obliging the person to come to Dublin to get that certificate.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy will understand that in this matter we must have regard to the requirements of the British authorities. They originally contemplated a medical examination in Great Britain. The alternative arrangement was this examination at the port of embarkation before embarking. I think I can say that the idea of examination by a local doctor was suggested to them but they would not regard that as a satisfactory arrangement.

Mr. Hughes

How long has this been in operation?

Mr. Lemass

It has been in operation for the last three or four months.

Mr. Hughes

Is there any question of a quarantine on the other side?

Mr. Lemass

It was to avoid any such question that this arrangement was arrived at.

Mr. Hughes

Was there a quarantine in operation at any time?

Mr. Lemass

The question arose, of course. The British Government proposed to institute a system requiring workers to go to specified centres for medical examination there.

Mr. Norton

On the other question of the financing of the Mineral Exploration Co., I am glad to see that the Minister proposes to associate its activities with the activities of the Slieveardagh Company. I think that is a welcome development notwithstanding the rather pessimistic view which has been expressed as to the extent of mineral deposits here. We had some experiments in Slieveardagh——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no money for Slieveardagh in this Vote.

Mr. Lemass

This company has nothing to do with coal.

An Ceann Comhairle

The company is not concerned with coal mining.

Mr. Norton

I take it that if the Minister can mention the word "Slieveardagh" it is not an offence for me to do so too.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, but the Deputy was proceeding to discuss it.

Mr. Lemass

I mentioned Slieveardagh only to say that this has nothing to do with it.

An Ceann Comhairle

That being agreed it may be dropped.

Mr. Norton

Very good. Apart from Slieveardagh I think this mineral exploration company has rather restricted its activities and might usefully have explored for minerals elsewhere. It is asserted on high technical authority, including the ex-head of the geological survey department, that there are extensive deposits in the Leinster Basin, and that these are of a kind that are merchantable, and the winning of these deposits would provide not only a local industry but certain raw materials of which we are in dire need. I want to avail of this Estimate to suggest to the Minister that seeing that the total deposits of rock in Clare constitute only one year's import of phosphatic rock and there is not very much scope for development, the Minister should endeavour to switch the efforts of the company to other areas where minerals are definitely known to exist. In this connection I want to again notify the Minister of the reputable report that has been made of the existence of minerals in the Leinster coalfield and to suggest that the company might investigate it not merely by carrying out a geological survey but by borings—borings being of course, the most reliable method of obtaining evidence of the existence of minerals. Judging by the evidence available, of engineers and the ex-head of the geological department and local records I think that mining work in that area is something that ought to be undertaken. If there are minerals there well and good, they can be made available. If they are not there in quantities which are merchantable, well and good, at least we will have explored the deposits and we will know that we are not losing a source of mineral wealth.

An Ceann Comhairle

Presumably, it is not coal.

Mr. Norton

No, I am just using the description of the Leinster coalfield to describe an area which is known locally as the Leinster coalfield, and which I think is known to the Department of Local Government as the Leinster coalfield. I suggest to the Minister that he might direct the attention of the company to the possibilities in that area.

An Ceann Comhairle

Of coal?

Mr. Norton

No, Sir, of minerals other than coal. But if they do come across coal, I am sure they will not turn up their noses at it.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

Coming back to the point of the type of medical examination to which the Deputy referred, in some cases a man may have to come from a longer distance than either Carlow or Kildare. Then he goes through all the forms and is rejected. How does he fare so far as his personal expenses are concerned?

Mr. Lemass

His travelling expenses and his hotel expenses are paid.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

That is the point I wanted to make clear; otherwise it would be open to the suggestion that there should be a local examination.

Mr. Byrne (Junior)

Is his fare paid home?

Mr. Lemass

His expenses are paid.

Mr. Dillon

The City of Dublin people know nothing about this. These are lads who are entered up by the Civil Engineers' Federation. They go and see the agent and he gives them a voucher for their journey. They arrive in Dublin with their bag and a ticket marked "C.E.F." There is a fellow there waiting for them, and if they have to go home, they are sent home and all expenses paid. As the result very largely of the vigilance of our Departmental officials, these men are well looked after, and the Federation of Engineering Industries treats the men equitably and reasonably well. I am not so sure that that was the case in the early stages, but negotiations were undertaken, and as a result of the efforts of our officials there is no reason to apprehend that these men are now inequitably treated. I want, however, to draw attention to Mr. Pat Dooley who, in the name of the Connolly Association, claims to be seeking to serve the best interests of these men. Now, if there is anything scandalous or wrong, here is the place to deal with it. If there is anything wrong, this is the best place to deal with it in the open. If it is bad, let us clean it up, and if it is a mare's nest, let us expose it for what it is.

An Ceann Comhairle

When relevant.

Mr. Dillon

Of course, you know me well enough to know that I am never irrelevant.

An Ceann Comhairle

Certainly, the Chair knows the Deputy.

Mr. Dillon

Pat Dooley reports the activities of Flann Campbell. He is a Trinity College man and has tramped through the Nissen huts, concrete mixers, mud and sand piles, the buildings of East Anglia, assisting building workers and shop stewards to organise better conditions for Irish lads. He addressed a speech to the Irish lads, in the course of which he said: "Belfast man and Dubliner work side by side and neither have any time for Fascist propaganda.""But," said Campbell, "grievances must be remedied. Bonus rates are often incompletely assessed. An end must be put to the discrimination with regard to clothing coupons and, to great applause', an ending to the verminous condition of the Kingdom Hotel in Dublin through which Irish workers pass en route to Britain." Is this Kingdom Hotel one of the ordinary centres through which they pass?

Mr. Lemass

It is not one of the centres which have been approved.

Mr. Dillon

Then what is it?

An Ceann Comhairle

If it is not one of the centres for examination, it does not arise.

Mr. Lemass

The only hotels which have been approved are the Globe Hotel in Talbot Street and the Fitzwilliam Hotel in Fitzwilliam Square. There was a complaint at one time concerning conditions of some of the hotels to which these workers were sent. I do not think they had necessarily to stay in them but they were directed to them by employers' agents, who paid for their keep in the hotel overnight. In order to remedy any possible grievance on that score there was a complete examination of every one of these premises. Only those which were regarded as suitable were approved. A limit was placed on the number of people who could be accommodated and arrangements were made to see that there was adequate lavatory accommodation and that the places were scrupulously clean. Possibly at the beginning there was some cause for complaint but the activities of the Department of Local Government and Public Health have eliminated that cause for complaint.

Mr. Dillon

At least we can take this occasion to assure Flann Campbell, Pat Dooley and the Connolly Association that it is nonsense to publish broadcast that the workers proceeding from Ireland to Britain are confined in verminous premises in Dublin. I think I might, at this stage, say that if people have information that workers are being confined in verminous premises they would better serve the interest of the workers if they would write a half-penny postcard to the Minister for Local Government or to the Lord Mayor of Dublin, who is a member of this Dáil and a member of the Labour Party, and say that they are informed that certain premises to which Irishmen are being directed are unsatisfactory. If they are sincerely interested in the welfare of the workers, and not in getting a bit of disreputable, publicity for themselves, they ought to know that, if they cannot trust the Minister for Local Government, they ought to be able to trust the Lord Mayor of Dublin to ensure that whatever remedial measures are necessary, will be taken. While demurring very strongly to the kind of scabious publicity which Flann Campbell indulged in, I think occasion might be taken by the Minister to make clear that if any responsible person hears of any complaint that these young lads or these girls may have in the course of their journey to Great Britain, or in their employment with the federation, the proper course is to communicate the facts to the Minister and, whether the story be well or ill-founded, it will be investigated and will be followed up. That course should have been taken before indulging in publicity of the character I have referred to in connection with this Connolly Association pamphlet.

With regard to sub-head J (3), I think we have learned to-day a very salutary lesson. The Fianna Fáil Party have been stumping this country for the past 20 years suggesting that but for the utter futility of their predecessors and everybody else, but for the dark conspiracies hatched in the Civil Service, we could have drawn from Clare all the superphosphate that would be required for this country for a generation. It now emerges that the total known deposit in Clare is not sufficient to provide one year's consumption of superphosphate for this country. And that is what all the hullabaloo was about. Upon my word, I was almost beginning to believe there was some truth in what I heard, both here and outside, that there was enough superphosphate in Clare to fertilise the whole of Europe.

Mr. Hughes

What about its quality?

Mr. Dillon

Its quality is another question. Its quantity has now diminished to the requirements of 26 counties of this country for one year, and in order to give even that quantity we will have to go mining for it.

Mr. Norton

And even then you may not get it.

Mr. Dillon

Is it not ludicrous, especially when you think of the roundelays sung and played by the Fianna Fáil Party about the great mineral deposits in this country? And, while I am talking of mineral deposits, when are we going to stop pouring money down the holes looking for what everybody knows is not there? Will you ever forget the time Deputy Blaney was looking for coal in somebody's backyard in Letterkenny, during an election? In view of the fact that it was coal that was supposed to be in the backyard, I suppose we may not discuss it to-day. It might just as well have been a deposit of pyrites or barytes.

Mr. Lemass

Does the Deputy remember the time that Deputy MacEoin discovered the oil well in Longford?

Mr. L. Cosgrave

Does the Minister remember when Deputy Briscoe discovered gold in Wicklow?

Mr. Dillon

There were no flies on Deputy Briscoe. The gold was in Wicklow all right. Devil a much would he spend going round looking for it if it was not there.

Mr. Briscoe

But there were flies on Deputy Dillon.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy would have done very nicely out of that.

Mr. Allen

It is there still.

Mr. Dillon

I suppose it is, but it will not be there very long if the Fianna Fáil Party get after it. I do not suppose we can prevent them lashing out this £88,850. I believe most of it will be lost. The process of educating Fianna Fáil has been, and still is, a very expensive business; but I suppose so long as Deputy Norton wants to go prospecting in the Leinster basin, he is not going to oppose Fianna Fáil prospecting in every constituency in the country, and so long as it is necessary to prop up the Party by experiments in Slievardagh and elsewhere, I suppose appropriations will be brought in here in the sacred name of mineral deposits.

The last thing I want to refer to concerns the losses at the New York World Fair. That subject was brought before the Committee of Public Accounts during the last two or three years. A great deal of money was lost in connection with the New York World Fair. If any Deputy has read the Report of the Committee of Public Accounts he will have seen that the Committee came to the conclusion that there was not much blame to be assigned to any of the officers of our own Departments in connection with these losses. I am sorry that the Minister did not take the occasion of this, which, I rather imagine, will be the last Supplementary Estimate in connection with the losses arising out of the New York World Fair, to give the House a picture of the total cost that our exhibit involved us in. At some stage I think we ought to get from the Minister—perhaps when he has disposed of all the liabilities that the exhibit gave rise to—a statement of what the total cost was.

On the whole, I agree that the Government was right in taking a stand at the New York World Fair, and in doing what they did, but I think it would be well that the House should realise what it means going into an exhibition of that kind; Deputies should realise that you are liable to be exploited in the most extraordinary way by sharks who get monopolies in the business of erecting stands and carrying out display work and one thing or another of that kind. My recollection is that at the Committee of Public Accounts we were told stories by the Accounting Officers—the full record will be found in the minutes of evidence—that would astonish the House, if they were carefully studied— stories of the extent to which we and every other exhibitor were held up by contractors and other persons who got monopolistic rights in constructing stands and providing display equipment at the fair.

Whether, if we are to enter any other exhibition of that kind in the future, we should not try to take some measures to exact from the Government which acts as host for the fair some sort of guarantee that there will be a schedule of charges payable to the Government which acts as host and allow that Government to settle with its own nationals who do the contract work, is something that I think ought to be considered. It is extremely difficult for foreigners to be masters of the whole technique of dealing with contractors in other countries, and they are very liable to something closely approximating to blackmail if they find their stand is not completed and the exhibition is to open in a very short time. I can conceive of no machinery whereby a visiting Government can be protected against that kind of thing, unless by an arrangement whereunder the visiting Government deals with the Government which acts as host and let the home Government deal with its own contractors, knowing all the strings and so forth, and being thus able to circumvent any attempt at a hold-up by the class of contractors to which I have referred.

In conclusion, I want to go back to the first matter I mentioned, and only for the purpose of saying this: I understand the Irish Labour Party availed of the services of Mr. Flann Campbell, who was so eloquent in the pamphlet I quoted, during the general election.

An Ceann Comhairle

That has no bearing on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

I think they might drop him a postcard setting out that if he publishes that sort of thing again they will not let him appear on their platform.

Mr. Norton

There is no evidence that it is untrue.

Mr. Dillon

Let us be clear on that. This is most interesting.

An Ceann Comhairle

But irrelevant.

Mr. Dillon

Let us assume it is true.

An Ceann Comhairle

Whether a certain person acted as agent for the Labour Party in the election is quite irrelevant.

Mr. Dillon

But the leader of the Labour Party says that a person who published stuff of this kind in a pamphlet would be justified if the conditions alleged were true. That is the very point I want to deal with.

Mr. Norton

If this is debatable and assuming that you, Sir, are permitting a debate on it, might I correct Deputy Dillon?

Mr. Dillon

Certainly.

Mr. Norton

He alleges that some person——

Mr. Dillon

I do not allege it—I produce the document.

Mr. Norton

It is still only an allegation. There is no evidence that he published it.

Mr. Dillon

I have it here.

Mr. Norton

That is a publication by somebody else.

Mr. Dillon

By the Connolly Association—Pat Dooley.

Mr. Norton

That is not evidence. Pat Dooley appears to have annoyed James Dillon.

Mr. Dillon

Greatly, by suggesting that we are all a verminous collection of rascals.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy, I understood, was giving way to Deputy Norton.

Mr. Norton

The allegation made in the pamphlet is that a certain hotel in which these unfortunate workers were compelled to stay was verminous. That statement was made. That statement was made here apart from that publication, and before that publication was ever received by Deputy Dillon. Is there anything wrong with anybody complaining about that? That is all, apparently, Mr. Flanagan has done. What does Deputy Dillon want to have written on the card he wants to send to Mr. Flanagan?

Mr. Dillon

I am not talking about any Mr. Flanagan.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will hear no more about Mr. Flanagan.

Mr. Dillon

I am talking about Flann Campbell's published statement about conditions in a city hotel.

An Ceann Comhairle

And the Deputy has discussed it.

Mr. Dillon

Arising directly on the Vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is for the Chair to judge. The Deputy has already discussed that point. I want to see what further points he wishes to discuss.

Mr. Dillon

But the Leader of the Labour Party says that, in the judgment of the Labour Party, the way to remedy these conditions——

Mr. Norton

He did not say any such thing.

Mr. Dillon

I understood the Deputy to say that.

Mr. Norton

I said that it has not been proved that what he said about the condition of the hotel is untrue.

Mr. Dillon

Suppose the conditions alleged by Flann Campbell were true, I want to make the case, and I want to hear the Minister on this view, that the right way to remedy them is to write to the Minister for Local Government or to the Labour Lord Mayor of Dublin, and not to publish pamphlets all over Great Britain suggesting that the persons going from here to Great Britain are verminous, and that the hotels in Dublin which they leave to go to England are verminous hotels. That is not true. There may be individual cases where the conditions were not as they should be, but I want to make the point that any honest person desiring to protect the travellers and the country which is receiving them as host would write to the Minister for Local Government or to the Labour Lord Mayor of Dublin and get that situation put right.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is repeating practically verbatim what he has already said.

Mr. Dillon

It does not seem to have gone home to the Leader of the Labour Party.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is no excuse for repetition, particularly of irrelevant matter.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think that any of it is irrelevant——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair does.

Mr. Dillon

——but if the Chair says so, we cannot depart from it. I have made my point, and I should like the Minister to deal with that particular aspect.

Mr. Lemass

With regard to the hotels approved for the accommodation of persons travelling to take up employment in Great Britain, the position is that only two such hotels are at present approved. Each of these is inspected daily by the medical officers of the Department of Local Government, and the Dublin Corporation, and there are very strict regulations as to the total number of persons who may be accommodated, and as to the facilities which must be provided there. If, in either hotel, there were found to be unsatisfactory conditions, approval would be withdrawn. I think it is possibly true to say that, in the early stages, there were some hotels to which these workers were sent in which conditions were not satisfactory. I should not like to say, because I could not be certain of my own knowledge, that the hotels were unclean, but it is undoubtedly true that they were sometimes overcrowded, and also true that lavatory accommodation was insufficient. The hotel mentioned in the pamphlet from which Deputy Dillon quoted, and some others, have not been approved for this scheme and are not being utilised in connection with the scheme. The Globe Hotel in Talbot Street and the Fitzwilliam Hotel in Fitzwilliam Street are the only hotels approved, and these are inspected daily by the medical officers.

Mr. Dillon

And if any complaint arises and is relayed to the Minister, he will have it investigated?

Mr. Lemass

Certainly. There are, of course, complete liaison arrangements between ourselves and the British Ministry of Labour and National Service to eliminate any causes of complaints which may arise either here or in Great Britain in relation to the accommodation provided for or the treatment of these workers.

In the matter of the Clare phosphates, I think it is not correct to say that the Fianna Fáil Party or any section of it made fantastic assertions as to the size and value of these deposits. Quite early after the present Government came into office, a committee of experts was set up to investigate the Clare phosphate deposits and to report on their commercial development. The report of that committee was adverse. One member of the committee disagreed with the report and undertook to submit a minority report, but in fact never did so. The general tenor, however, of the report was adverse to the prospect of their successful commercial development in normal circumstances. All these considerations disappeared, however, when the war started. When we found that the normal source of supply of phosphate rock, North Africa, was cut off and the difficulty of getting it from Florida, the only other source of supply, was very considerable, it became necessary to develop these deposits, even though they are of a lower grade than the rock normally imported, and even though the quantity known to exist or proven to exist was limited, because of our immediate needs.

The company for which this money is required does not, of course, manufacture fertilisers. They quarry the rock and produce the pyrites and sell them to fertiliser manufacturers. The best utilisation of our resources having regard to the fertiliser needs of the country is a matter no doubt for the Government in present circumstances, and it is advised by the Industrial Research Bureau and by the manufacturers that, with existing equipment, the best use that can be made of our available supply of fertilisers and fertiliser-making machinery is the production of this compound fertiliser now being sold. I should not like anyone to think from Deputy Dillon's reference to losses in connection with the New York World Fair that we had embarked there on some commercial enterprise which did not succeed.

Mr. Dillon

Oh, no.

Mr. Lemass

We put up a shop window at that fair, as we have often done at other international exhibitions and fairs, for the purpose of advertising our wares, hoping eventually to attract either business or tourists to our country. We have frequently taken exhibition space and financed displays at fairs in countries with which we had in fact little trade at all, in the hope of developing better commercial relations. That is part of the normal national advertising in which all countries must engage in ordinary circumstances. In the case of the New York World Fair, we considered that, because of our commercial and other associations with the United States of America, it was desirable that we should not be missing from the international fair which they organised in New York.

It has been my experience that, although we spend what is, for us, a substantial amount of money upon these exhibitions, most people who see them in relation to the gigantic displays of far wealthier countries urge that we should have spent more rather than less, because the displays which we can make possible with our limited resources naturally do not appear very elaborate compared with what the wealthy nations can undertake. At the same time, the evidence is that the country as a whole has gained from these displays at international fairs. There is no question of displaying goods at any international fair now and possibly for some time to come, but when normal international trade relations are restored I should imagine that this question will arise again. It is, however, a matter for the Dáil to decide how much we can afford to spend upon advertising of that kind and to decide to spend that in the recognition that it will not bring an immediate return in cash but may bring an ultimate return in improved commercial relations with the country concerned or in international good will.

Mr. Dillon

Would the Minister say, in connection with the World's Fair, if there was something approaching racketeering?

Mr. Lemass

That complaint was made, not merely by ourselves but by a very large number of other countries.

Mr. Dillon

Is there not something to be said for the suggestion that, in future, arrangements should be made whereby the Irish Government would give a schedule of its requirements to the Government acting as host? Let that Government then settle with the contractors while we settle with the Government concerned.

Mr. Lemass

There is no standard practice. The Deputy understands that in the last 15 years or so—before the war—we have had displays at New York, at the Glasgow Exhibition and, I think, in Brussels. In each case the circumstances were different. In some cases, the exhibition authority provided the space and even provided the pavilion and you had only to supply the goods for display. In other cases you had to build the pavilion yourself. The conditions are different in all cases. A lot depends on the nature of the exhibition and the extent to which the Government behind it is prepared to lose money.

Mr. Norton

Could the Minister not undertake to direct the attention of this Exploration Company to the Leinster coalfield?

Mr. Lemass

I could not possibly do that. This company has an obligation to carry out an exploration of mineral resources everywhere. Its only commercial activities at the moment are the Clare phosphates and the Avoca pyrites. I do not think it would be possible for it to undertake any other form of commercial development of mineral resources at the present time because it could not possibly procure the equipment. It did not succeed in getting the equipment necessary for the proper development of the pyrites deposits in Wicklow. It has nothing to do with coal. It may have following the introduction of the new Bill which I forecast.

I would like, however, to say this: that, normally, it is desirable that mineral development work should be done by private enterprise since it is highly speculative. Every mineral development work is a gamble which may produce a complete loss or a big profit. It is because of its highly speculative nature, in a country of our size, that it is difficult to get people to undertake it. Where there is a reasonable prospect of success, however, private enterprise will be interested. It is only where there is not that reasonable prospect of success that this company comes into the picture. I would ask Deputies, therefore, in considering the operations of this company now and in the future to remember that it is being left with the most speculative of the possible development projects that are in the country.

It may be that it will have losses to report to the Dáil from time to time, because many of the projects which it will explore will prove on exploration to be impracticable. It is a rather risky matter for the Government to set up a company of this kind, because it will be left with the uneconomic fringe of the field which is there for development. In so far as there is development where the prospects are good, there will be private persons interested, and if there are, this company does not interfere. These considerations do not arise in the case of the work upon which it is now engaged, because it is work which must be done, irrespective of cost. Its main activity, in relation to post-war development, is at present being concentrated on exploration work with a view to ascertaining, so far as that can be done with precision, the areas in which permanent and profitable development will be possible.

Mr. Norton

Is not the position this——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister has concluded twice.

Mr. Norton

I am not responsible for that.

An Ceann Comhairle

To some extent, surely.

Mr. Norton

Is not the position this, that no one will undertake exploratory work because of the cost?

Mr. Lemass

Not so much the cost, but because of the risk.

Mr. Norton

And the risk. Would the Minister not, therefore, consider——

Mr. Lemass

That does not apply at present to coal.

Mr. Norton

Well, I cannot discuss coal, and I do not want the Minister to get me on the fly paper about coal. What I do want to ask him is, would he not ask this company to carry out a survey in the Leinster area for minerals which are believed to be there, and therefore make available, either to the nation or to private speculators, the minerals that are there?

Mr. Lemass

What minerals? No one believes that there are any minerals there except coal.

Mr. Norton

The head of the Geological Survey believes otherwise. The Minister should read his report.

Mr. Hughes

With regard to the superphosphates manufactured in Clare, is the admixture there on a percentage basis, and has the Minister any idea of what the percentage is?

Mr. Lemass

It produces a superphosphate of a corresponding quality. It takes, roughly, 130 tons of Clare rock to equal 100 tons of imported rock, in making the compound.

Mr. Hughes

It is not the same quality?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Hughes

The Minister mentioned——

An Ceann Comhairle

The composition of fertilisers does not arise.

Mr. Lemass

All the fertilisers for the country are now put into the one bag and a compound fertiliser is produced from them.

Question put and agreed to.

Supplementary Estimates Nos. 20 and 55 reported and agreed to.