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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Feb 1944

Vol. 92 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 33—Gárda Síochána.

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £18,264 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1944, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Gárda Síochána (No. 7 of 1925, No. 10 of 1926, No. 5 of 1937, and No. 19 of 1941); and for certain Expenses of the Local Security Force including Grants-in-Aid (No. 28 of 1939).

The Supplementary Estimate is for the sum of £18,264. The gross additional sum required is £36,084, but bigger receipts from Appropriations-in-Aid and savings on other sub-heads take £17,820 off that sum.

Short explanations of the various items will be found on the back of the Estimate. It will be seen that under sub-head A (Salaries, Wages and Pay) the increase in the emergency bonus calls for an extra sum of over £10,000. A saving of over £6,000 on other items of this sub-head brings the required amount down to £4,000. Increases in the prices of clothing, equipment, furniture, bedding, etc., account for the additional sums required under sub-heads E and F. Subsistence Allowance (sub-head C) is responsible for the additional sum of £6,000 due mainly, as indicated, to claims arising from crime investigations and work on last year's Register of Population.

Under sub-head H (Transport and Carriage) there is an additional provision of £10,390. Most of this sum is required for the equipment of police cars with gas-producer units. It is proposed to fit some 80 cars in this way, at an average cost of about £100 per car. At the time when the Supplementary Estimate was prepared, it was hoped that this work would be completed before the end of the present financial year and, therefore, the entire sum necessary was included in this Estimate, but it seems unlikely now that the work will be completed before the end of March and some of the cost will, therefore, probably be thrown into the next financial year.

An additional sum of £3,357 is necessary for Incidental Expenses (sub-head N). This is made up of two items as shown on the back of the Estimate, and I may perhaps explain that the item of £1,817 for ammunition and miscellaneous equipment is not in respect of recent purchases but is merely the settlement of a long delayed account between the Gárdaí and the Defence Forces. The equipment was handed over by the Defence Forces to the Gárdaí three or four years ago.

The increase under sub-head O is due to the fact that we have been able to do more than we anticipated in the way of providing uniform for the L.S.F., though still less than we would like to do. We have supplied about 30,000 uniforms and about the same number of caps, and hope to supply some thousands more and about 5,000 ground sheets before the end of the financial year. I may say, also, although it is not strictly within the scope of this Estimate, that after the end of the present financial year we hope to supply 10,000 overcoats and 1,000 serge uniforms, and to improve the position as regards the supply of boots. Under sub-head R (Appropriations-in-Aid) there is an increase of £4,830, mainly due to the high prices now fetched by the sale of old uniforms and stores.

From this side of the House no opposition will be raised to this Supplementary Estimate. We understand that owing to the increased cost of living, owing to the increased cost of everything, the cost of maintenance of the Guards must be higher than it was. Indeed, if I were to criticise this Estimate at all I would think that the sum of £10,000 is a comparatively small sum for an increase of the salaries of the Guards in comparison with the enormous increase that there has been in the cost of living. The total salaries and wages come to £1,701,076 and an addition of £10,000 strikes me as being extraordinarily small.

Mr. Boland

That was for less than three months.

In connection with the sub-head for which the sum of £6,000 is being provided, I understand that the allowance given to some of the men engaged in crime investigation is very small, considering their expenses, and I should like to ask the Minister, if possible, to increase it. There has been an increase in the work of some of these officers, and on occasions they are obliged to meet expenses that are not recognised by the Department. I should like also, in cases of special merit, where some of these officers get special recommendations from a court, that there should be some award in a financial way. It would encourage the diligent officers. Even diligent officers get tried after a number of years receiving just "Thank you" from the Department, particularly in view of the scales of pay of some of these men.

In connection with the section of the Vote dealing with the L.S.F., I might mention that there are complaints throughout the country that equipment is very slow in coming to them and that is particularly so in the area which I represent. I should like the Minister to speed up matters in this connection, if that is possible. I am also of the opinion that if there was a different control for the L.S.F., if they were under the Army authorities instead of under the Gárda forces, it would mean greater efficiency and better co-ordination. The L.S.F. in some places seems to be regarded as an unwanted baby by some officers in the Gárda forces, with the result that the men are dissatisfied and the organisation is not progressing as well as it should progress. There is a lack of confidence in that organisation so far as the Gárda authorities are concerned. I think it would lead to greater efficiency if the L.S.F. were controlled in the same way as the L.D.F., by the Army authorities.

I think most Deputies will agree with the Minister, the first Minister for Justice of a Fianna Fáil Administration who has resolutely set his face against disorder and lawlessness. I should like to ask him if he is satisfied with the number of Gárda who are on crime investigation. There is a general feeling that the growth of crime is more or less uncontrolled and that the measures which have been taken are insufficient, particularly in this city, where a kind of gang warfare appears to be in progress. A good deal of it goes on amongst rival gangs, but at the same time it is doing considerable damage to citizens who are not members of any particular gang. If the Minister is not satisfied with the situation following the investigations of his police officers, it might be well if he were to augment that force.

The general complaint appears to be that the Guards are overworked, at any rate in this city and the suburban areas, in dealing with crime. If the Minister is not satisfied that sufficient officers are engaged on this work, he should transfer men from other work to carry on these particular investigations.

I should like the Minister to endeavour, if possible, to station married Guards in areas where it would be possible for them to get housing accommodation. I have had complaints from married men who find it impossible to get suitable accommodation. I know it is not very easy to interfere in the administration of the force to the extent that married men should be sent here and unmarried men there, but I think if the Minister made investigations he would find that in many cases it is impossible for the married men to get suitable accommodation.

I am glad to see in this Vote that some further provision is being made in the direction of equipping and clothing the L.S.F. The L.S.F., so far, in the way of finance, has been treated as the Cinderella of the emergency forces. If any one of us was present at a State function during the past 12 months, the number of gorgeous uniforms would remind one of the glorious days of Potsdam, but the poor L.S.F. are still there in whatever kind of calico was given them. I am very pleased to see this provision, slight as it is, being made.

I would be sorry to think that Deputy Moran's experience was in anyway general; that is, that the Gárda are inclined to look on the L.S.F. as a nuisance, or as an unwanted force. In the course of my functions as a member of the Defence Conference, I have visited a great number of constituencies in connection with reviews of the various emergency forces, and my experience is very different from that of the Deputy. I find police sergeants and other officers of the Gárda more or less resentful that most of the recruiting platforms are utilised for recruiting for the Army and the L.D.F. and sufficient enthusiasm is not thrown into the effort to build up the L.S.F. to greater strength. I think that the most important force of all the emergency forces is the L.S.F. In the L.S.F. we are building up an auxiliary police force, an unpaid, voluntary police force. Through them we are disseminating a knowledge of the law. There cannot be respect for anything that we have not knowledge of and the more we spread a knowledge of the law the more will respect for the law be developed. At some of the functions held by the L.S.F. I was amazed at the amount of knowledge of police work, police regulations and simple law that has been absorbed by the ordinary rank and file member of the L.S.F. I think any little tribute that this House could pay to that voluntary organisation is more than due. It is regrettable that so many regular attenders, men who attend one and two nights a week, who appear at every parade and carry out all the duties given to them, are unemployed. I think there is something heroic in the make-up of an unemployed citizen of the State who still finds the State worthy of his voluntary effort and support. I think we could give some kind of recognition to the value of the voluntary services of these people. Remember, it is really an unpaid part-time auxiliary police force that we have built up. We could give some little recognition, pay some tribute, to what they have done for the State and on behalf of the citizens of the State, if some machinery were devised to give some small preferences to members of such bodies when it comes to employment directly out of State funds. If something of that kind were developed, it would at least show that we appreciate the value of their services and that we appreciate the example in citizenship which they have set for the rest of us. It is not asking much that when there is employment going, there should be a firm preference for a man who has shown himself a good citizen in spite of hard luck, unemployment and destitution and who comes along to give his time and thoughts and energy voluntarily.

The Minister mentioned a sum of approximately £10,000 required for the purpose of purchasing a launch and equipping police-cars with gas-producer plants. He said that that expenditure was not foreseen when the Estimate was prepared in the first instance. Has this work been carried out?

Mr. Boland

Not yet.

Does the Minister anticipate that it will be necessary to have a sum of £10,000 by the end of the financial year, which is only six weeks away?

Mr. Boland

I said that we would not be able to spend it by the end of the year. I do not think we will.

Is the Minister merely making provision for it because the liability originates in this year?

Mr. Boland

That is correct, yes.

Mr. Larkin

Has any provision been made against accidents to the L.S.F. resulting in disability or death?

Mr. Boland

There is a regulation governing that for the L.S.F. and the L.D.F.

Mr. Larkin

Is it the same as the provision for A.R.P.?

Mr. Boland

They are all on the same basis.

Mr. Larkin

I suggest that it is time a proper uniform was provided for the L.S.F. The dungarees at present provided are not fit clothing for outdoor wear in this inclement weather. Even if it cost a little more, I think the House would vote the money for it. I think the provision of a proper uniform would be an even greater inducement to men to join the L.S.F. and better appreciation of their services than the suggestion by Deputy O'Higgins. Why not give them proper clothing if the clothing is available?

Mr. Boland

That is just the point. Unfortunately, it is not available. It is not a question of money.

Mr. Larkin

In that case one can only suggest that when the time is opportune the Minister will see that a proper uniform is provided.

Mr. Boland

I can assure the Deputy that we are constantly watching the situation to try to get it, when available.

Mr. Larkin

In regard to the question of the housing of Gárda officers, is the rent allowance the same for all officers or is there a differential on account of area?

Mr. Boland

There is.

Mr. Larkin

Would it not be a good thing to put aside a sum of money and to acquire land from the corporation for the building of houses for these officers? There is a great burden upon us in providing housing accommodation for these men. Some of them are young married officers and I think provision ought to be made for that purpose.

I would like to make one request to the Minister, which is the request that has just been made by Deputy Larkin, that housing accommodation should be provided for members of the Gárda Síochána. In towns in the midlands where cottages are erected under the Housing of the Working Classes Act, members of the Gárda Síochána are applying for these houses. There is a case in my constituency where the county manager gave a member of the Gárda Síochána a house, with the result that an ordinary labouring man, one of the persons for whom the houses were built under the Act, was deprived of the house. I think the Government should provide housing accommodation according to the number of Guards in each station. I would be very glad if the Minister would make a note of that suggestion and do what he can to have it implemented. Before I conclude, I wish to raise a very important matter. I think I am in order in doing so as this is a Supplementary Estimate for the Minister's Department.

The Deputy is in order in discussing on a Supplementary Estimate any item that is in the Estimate, but nothing else.

The Estimate deals with members of the Gárda Síochána, and I would just like to ask the Minister if he is aware that political influences are used in the Gárda Síochána? I am very sorry to have to say it.

I fear the Deputy is now outside this Estimate. Perhaps he would indicate which item in this Estimate the point comes under.

With all due respect to your ruling, Sir, the money, of course, is for the Gárda Síochána and I am referring to the Gárda Síochána.

The Deputy appreciates what I said better than he pretends. On a Supplementary Estimate it is permitted to discuss the actual items of that Estimate, not the general administration of the Department or the policy of the Department. The recruitment of Guards is not in this.

Could the Minister state when the ordinary Estimate of his Department will be introduced in this year?

Mr. Boland

I cannot give an approximate date, but it will be in the very near future.

Then, Sir, I will not deal with the matters with which I was about to deal. I will keep them in store, but the Minister has got an inkling of what he will get on that Estimate.

There is one sub-head —C—to which I think I can with propriety address my remarks. It mentions work done in connection with crime investigation. I should like to have from the Minister some indication as to the necessity for this provision for crime investigation, whether it has been in connection with crime against property or against persons or whether it has been political crime. I should like to know what has occasioned the extra expenditure of £6,000 under this sub-head. It may perhaps be, as I would expect, that the increase in crime spread over the whole year— because this Supplementary Estimate covers a period of only a couple of months—shows that we are rather a peacefully disposed nation and that crime in fact is decreasing. If this figure is evidence of a decrease in crime, I should like the Minister to make the fact public, because it will have an important bearing upon many things, even of a political nature, in this country.

With regard to crime investigation, although there may have been a decrease in crime generally, I think it has been admitted that there has been an increase in juvenile delinquency, and I should like to know whether any part of this additional sum is in respect of the investigation, correction and treatment of juvenile delinquency. Although it is a thorny subject, perhaps the Minister will address himself to the question which I raised previously of the appointment of full-time probation officers to handle this matter.

The Deputy has strayed again.

Might I ask if it is in order, arising out of crime investigation, for a district justice, a State solicitor and a superintendent of the Guards to "confab" before a certain case is heard? Where is the justice in that?

The Minister for Justice would scarcely answer that.

If we are to have proper law in the country, surely a superintendent, a State solicitor and a district justice should not have a consultation before judgment is passed on the unfortunate victim, whose coffin, I suggest, is made before he dies.

They should consult the Deputy.

Before I became a member of the House, it seems to me that I read that the health of the Gárda Síochána was not what we would like it to be. I think it was stated that there was a higher incidence of tuberculosis amongst the Guards than there should be. We know that the work is laborious but one would think that it was healthily laborious.

That would be a matter for the main Vote. The Minister might not be in a position to answer now.

Perhaps not, but I raise it in connection with the item for clothing, bedding, equipment and so on. Has the Minister got that aspect constantly before him?

Mr. Boland

I am not prepared to deal with that now as I did not expect the matter to be raised on this Estimate, but when the main Estimate comes up, I hope I shall be able to satisfy the Deputy on the point.

I will raise it then.

Is the Minister providing any money in this Estimate for extra bonuses for the Guards? The ordinary worker is getting 11/- bonus and the Guards have to keep up a certain standard and some of them have large families. I should like to know if this Estimate provides any money for bonuses for them.

Mr. Boland

If the Deputy reads the explanations on the back of the Estimate, he will see that the £10,000 is for emergency bonus payable to the Guards. I admit that it is a small item and I would like to see it much more, but it is only for a quarter of the year. The question of the L.S.F. was raised by Deputy O'Higgins, and I, too, should like to take the opportunity of paying a tribute to the work they have done. Everything Deputy O'Higgins said about them is correct. I have travelled around the country to a fair extent and I have been at several of these conferences. We always had complaints, and very well justified complaints, about the way they were treated in regard to clothing and equipment, but I have never yet heard any complaint of the kind to which Deputy Moran referred. I have not yet met any officer of the Gárda who expressed anything but appreciation of the work they are doing, and I never heard it suggested, although it may be so in his area, that their work was not highly appreciated by the Guards. I know that all the principal officers of the Guards speak very highly of their work.

I personally felt very much the fact that we had not been able to supply clothing and equipment for them, but it was not a question of finance. It was a question of getting the material, and, as soon as we can get the material for these uniforms, we shall do so. The Army and the L.D.F., as I think everyone will agree and as the L.S.F. men themselves agree—the L.D.F. would be expected to turn out with the Army in case of invasion or military action—had to get the first available equipment, but that does not mean that we did not fully appreciate the good work the L.S.F. were doing and we will do all we can to equip them as well as possible.

With regard to housing, although it may not be altogether a matter for this Estimate, I should like to say that one of the schemes which we have put before the reconstruction committee set up by the Government is a scheme for the provision of housing for married Gárda when the emergency is over. I fully realise that it is very awkward for Guards when they are sent down the country and cannot get accommodation. It causes great trouble, and we are very well aware of it, but we have put our proposal before this reconstruction committee as one of the matters to be. tackled when the emergency is over. As everyone knows, houses cannot be built before then. I have explained that I cannot deal with the question of the health of the Guards as I did not expect the matter to be raised.

With regard to the point raised by Deputy Moran about the cost of investigating crime, this relates to the cost of investigating crime generally. There is one particular case, a murder case, which is being investigated, which has not been solved yet and which has already cost £2,000. That gives an idea of the cost of crime investigation.

Could the Minister say whether that is due to neglect?

Mr. Boland

It is not due to neglect at all, but to trying to bring people to justice for a murder, to trying to get evidence which will enable the Guards to bring the people responsible to justice. It is unfortunately not an easy thing to get people to come forward and help, and that is one item alone which cost £2,000. The amount here is for general investigation of crime. Juvenile delinquency is a big question which I think we ought not to go into now, but if Deputy Connolly is prepared to wait until the main Estimate comes up, we can debate the whole matter. To reassure the public, however, I am glad to be able to say that recent reports which I have got from the Commissioner tend to show that there is no increase in crime as compared with last year, but that it is still about twice as heavy as in normal times. Last year, when introducing the Estimate, I had to say that there was a very big increase in crime, but the Commissioner tells me that we have now passed the peak and are going down. I am glad to be able to say that, because I felt very bad last year when I had to say that it was still going up. However, it has been halted, as I hope, permanently.

How much of the money is devoted to the register of population—that very useful work done by the Guards?

Mr. Boland

I could not say.

Do they get special allowances for that work?

Mr. Boland

If the Deputy will look at the back of the Estimate, he will get all the information I have. I could not give the exact amount.

The Minister mentioned £2,000 in respect of a murder case, which leaves £4,000 for general crime investigation and work on the register.

Mr. Boland

What the amount is I could not say.

Does it not seem very little in view of the value of the work?

Mr. Boland

I did not mean to say that the whole £2,000 was included in this particular amount. In one particular case, the amount involved to date is £2,000 and the case has not been solved yet. I mentioned it merely as an indication of what expenses may have to be incurred in the investigation of crime. This item is for general incidental expenses. I have not got the full details and I do not think it is usual to go into the full details on a Supplementary Estimate. The Deputy will have to pardon me if I cannot give the details because I have not got them here.

In what county was this crime committed?

Mr. Boland

I will not say anything about it.

Would it be in order to ask the Minister how long these investigations have been going on?

Mr. Boland

About two years.

Question put and agreed to.
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