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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Sep 1944

Vol. 94 No. 14

Adjournment Debate. - Leix Land Purchase.

To-day I addressed a question to the Minister for Lands asking him "if he is aware that a private individual took advantage of the curtailment of Land Commission operations to purchase a number of large estates in the County of Leix including Brockley Park, Stradbally, and to sub-divide and sell such estates at war prices to the detriment of uneconomic holders and landless men and if he will state what he proposes to do to deal with this departure from well-established national policy." There were two questions asked there, (1) was he aware that an individual was frolicking about in this manner, and (2) what he proposed to do. The Minister's reply was that "the Land Commission have no power or intention to prevent private sales of land by the owners. Such sales do not prevent the possible exercise in future of the powers to acquire lands for division accorded to the Land Commission under the Land Acts. At present the exercise of these powers is necessarily limited by the existing emergency conditions."

That answer, I think, in the opinion of everybody was a miserable evasion of the question asked. The Minister was asked was he aware that a number of very large estates in a certain county had been purchased by one wealthy individual and the second question was what he proposed to do to deal with that situation. Neither one nor the other has been answered. The fact of the matter is that a fabulously wealthy man who has made enormous sums of money at the expense of the people of this country through the tariff régime, monopolies and quotas, is using these vast sums of money to take bread out of the mouths of poor and humble Irish people. Surely there is a time, the Minister will agree, when such financiers and speculators should be satisfied with the immense fortunes made without utilising these fortunes to do irreparable damage to unfortunate, obscure people down the country.

The Minister says that there is nothing to prevent the Land Commission eventually functioning and rectifying the wanton damage that he is allowing to be done at the moment. That answer must have been given without any serious attention to the situation, as it exists. These vast ranches are being bought up by an individual while the Land Commission is inactive. The mansions are torn down and sold to the highest bidder. The timber is cut and sold. The land is sub-divided into 50-acre holdings and sold by public auction to the highest bidder, to the wealthiest man who wants land, so that the Land Commission, when it wakes from its slumber, will be presented with a situation in which there is not an estate of 500 or 1,000 acres but in which there are so many farms of 40 acres or 50 acres. Will anybody consider it reasonable that the Land Commission should weigh in on a 40-acre farm and dispossess the owner with a view to sub-division? The situation will have been completely changed as a result of the triumphal march of the profiteers up and down the land, and the big estates that would be all legitimate marks for attention by the Land Commission will have been converted into small, compact holdings.

Cromwell, in his march through this country, took bread out of the mouths of the people, dispossessed them and left the mansions of the land in ruins, either for loot or for vengeance. The modern fashion is to do the same for profit. It was suggested to the Minister by a deputation that there was no objection to the ordinary sale of land, that there was no objection to one man selling to another so that the other man might work that land and the original owner get out at a profit. The objection was to the exploitation of, and speculation in, land; to wealthy men, not even belonging to our race, wading in with their wads and buying land over the heads of the people, not to work, not to hold, not to farm, but to make a further profit and leave black despair behind them amongst those who would be rightfully entitled to a share of this land if it were ever offered for sub-division. It was suggested to the Minister that he should introduce an Emergency Order, not prohibiting the first sale of land, during the emergency, but prohibiting the subsequent sub-division and re-sale of that land for profit. I do not believe that there is a Deputy on any side of the House who does not abhor what is going on in every county.

In my own native county five of the largest estates have been bought up by one man, subdivided and sold at a profit, so that the uneconomic holders and landless men in the neighbourhood have no hope in the future, whatever hope they had in the past, of becoming either economic holders or farmers. The little town I come from, the place specially mentioned in the question— Stradbally—is bounded on three sides by demesne land—entailed land. There was opportunity for expansion only in one direction and, in that direction a huge estate was privately bought by the financier in question and is about to be sub-divided and re-sold to the highest bidders. Do Deputies think that, after five years of war prices and profits, the ordinary, uneconomic holder or landless man can compete in such a market? Therefore, the only possible avenue for expansion is completely blocked under the benevolent eye of a home Government. An Adjournment debate is necessarily brief and I want to allow the Minister ten minutes in which to reply, while affording colleagues an opportunity of representing the views of their constituents in this matter. So I must end with that.

I consider that the question which Deputy O'Higgins has raised is one of the very greatest importance. It may be extraordinary but, in Stradbally, you have smallholders and landless man. The smallholders are well prepared, financed and equipped to work land, but they are not getting an opportunity to obtain that land from the Land Commission. It appears that one financier, Davy Frame, has more influence with the Minister for Lands than all the five Laoighis-Offaly Deputies put together. It is quite obvious that that is the point. Four farms in County Laoighis have been grabbed up by this financier and the Land Commission has closed its eyes to the fact. The Minister for Lands has stood aside, simply because this man is a financier. Furthermore, I think he is a Scotsman. That Scotsman has come along into the County Laoighis and grabbed four farms, and five in Offaly. I have placed this matter, time and again, before the Minister and the Land Commission. The Minister said to-day that, when I was making an appointment for that deputation, I was principally concerned with the question of the dwelling. I did put the question of the division of the lands up to the Minister and the Land Commission, although I was principally interested in the mansion on that farm. I did not want to see it demolished, the slates and timber sold and the stones tumbled down. I wanted, as well as that, to see that the smallholders in the area would get their portion of that estate to which I consider them entitled.

The Minister has made no move good, bad or indifferent, since that deputation went before him, and I am of opinion that the Land Commission at present are useless. All they are doing is collecting rates and putting up notices of sales of holdings. They are doing nothing to put the plain people in a decent way of living and they are allowing financiers to grab up land to which the people are entitled. At a meeting of Laoighis County Council, Councillor Boland proposed a resolution protesting against this action, and it was passed unanimously. Deputy Gorry, another representative of the constituency, who was not, for some unknown reason, on the deputation, said at Laoighis County Council that he had a private letter from the Minister for Lands. When challenged to produce the letter and read it to the County Council, he said he would not, that he would have to get the permission of the Minister for Lands to read his confidential letter. I want to know what was in that letter to Deputy Gorry. Deputy Gorry has refused five different appeals at Laoighis County Council to disclose the information conveyed to him by the Minister. The letter Deputy Gorry got was, in my opinion, the same letter which was sent to Deputy O'Higgins, Deputy Davin and myself. So far as this Deputy and the Minister were concerned and, probably, our Scotch friend, Davy Frame, there was something very strange so far as Brockley Park and other farms in Laoighis-Offaly were concerned. If the Land Commission do not take steps to wipe out Davy Frame in Laoighis, we will do it. We will kick him out. We will see that the downtrodden people of Laoighis-Offaly will get their God-given right to the land there, and that the Land Commission will not allow a grabber like this guy, who is living on the fat of the land, who has made thousands and thousands in speculation, with the approval of the Fianna Fáil Government, to deprive them of that right. On another occasion I should be in better form for speaking on this subject. When the Minister is replying, I hope he will indicate what was in that secret, private and confidential letter, the contents of which Deputy Gorry refused to disclose at Laoighis County Council.

Local agitation for the acquisition and division of land was going on for a number of years previous to the emergency period, and previous to the suspension of Land Commission activities in connection with matters of that kind. If the Land Commission had done its work in this case inside a reasonable time, and if it had acquired and divided these lands, the landless men in this particular area, and particularly the workers who are to lose their employment on this estate, would have been provided for long before the emergency period. The blame for the failure to do that, I admit, does not rest with the present Minister for Lands, but I was surprised to hear that the Minister, in reply to a Parliamentary Question to-day, said that the object of this deputation, of which I was a member, was to persuade the Minister to acquire the buildings for the purpose of a hospital, or some purpose of that kind. That certainly was not the purpose on which I went to see the Minister, along with my colleagues and members of the Laoighis County Council, and representatives of the workers who were threatened with loss of their employment. The purpose of the deputation was to put an end to the activities of this man, which were threatening to put an end to the employment of those people and to go over the rights of the people. The whole matter was gone into in a friendly way with the Minister on that occasion, and I do not think I am misrepresenting the Minister when I say that our representations were not turned down by him on that occasion.

I know that there is considerable opposition in Laoighis and in North Tipperary, where the same gentleman is carrying on the same kind of activities, to this kind of thing being allowed to happen. To put it bluntly, if this man, or the men behind him— because I think that there is a syndicate involved here—are to be allowed to pursue these activities, they are going to cut across the whole policy both of this Government and the previous Government in the matter of the acquisition and division of land. I am putting it to the Minister that he can make use of his powers under the Emergency Powers Act to prevent this kind of operation being carried on any longer in the midland counties. It is deeply resented in these areas, and if the Land Commission ever come to deal with the question of the division of these lands, they will find that the activities of this gentleman and of the people behind him have cut across the whole policy of the Land Commission.

As the time at our disposal is very short, I shall have to be very brief in my remarks, so as to leave all the time possible for the Minister to reply. First of all, I want to say that the truth cannot be blamed or shamed, and I would ask Deputy Flanagan to stick to the truth as to what happened at the meeting of the Laoighis County Council.

Is the Deputy insinuating that I am telling a lie? I was called to order for making a similar remark.

I should like to point out to Deputies that the time at our disposal is very short.

Is there not an arrangement that the Minister is to be allowed time to reply?

I understand that he will be allowed 13 minutes to reply,

Is Deputy Gorry insinuating that I told a lie?

I did not interrupt Deputy Flanagan, and I do not usually interrupt, but he said that I refused to produce a private letter from the Minister. I had no private letter from the Minister, but because this thing was made a political matter at the Laoighis County Council I had neither the time nor the opportunity to produce the communication that I did receive. After the deputation came back, a meeting was held in Stradbally, and Deputy Boland and myself were accused of refusing to attend the meeting. The chairman of the county council would not allow a discussion on that matter, and rightly so, because he was not going to allow the Laoighis County Council to be turned into a platform for propaganda purposes and politics. As far as I am concerned, I am with Deputy O'Higgins in that I do not wish to see the land taken from the people. I realised, just as every other Deputy concerned in the matter realised, that there was room in the midlands for an agricultural college, and that these lands would be suitable for such a college. I also realised that the Emergency Powers Order was there, but unfortunately the suggestion that I made could not be availed of. I do not want to take up time just now. I am with my colleagues in so far as they seek to prevent these lands being apportioned out in small holdings for the benefit of people who have been buying lands for many years.

You did it yourself.

No, I did not.

You did it before.

Can you prove that?

Do we have, Sir, to listen to a piece of blackguardism between Deputies Flanagan and Gorry?

I shall sit down, if necessary, because I do not wish to shorten the Minister's time for replying, but I wish to say that this red herring—this lie—was circulated in my home district because I agreed with the proposal of a Land Commission inspector to exchange some land.

Because you used influence with the inspector.

I did not.

Deputy Flanagan must keep order, and not interrupt Deputy Gorry, even if he does not agree with him.

It is a lie to say that officers of this State are prepared to go into collusion with me or anybody else, and I think it is unmanly of Deputy Flanagan to suggest that of civil servants, who cannot defend themselves. As regards Deputy O'Higgins, I believe that he is genuinely interested in this matter, since it concerns his home area, and he knows the people concerned, and I do hope that in the near future it will be possible for the Government to amend the Emergency Powers Act, so as to be able to deal with lands of this kind and save them for the people.

You know that you got a letter from the Minister and did not produce it.

The allotted time has already been passed, and I now call on the Minister to conclude.

As long as the Laoighis Deputies want to take one another's scalps, I suppose that my own scalp is fairly safe. I have a good deal of sympathy with the point of view of the Deputies who have spoken, in wishing for a resumption of the acquisition and division of lands by the Land Commission, and I am hoping that the Land Commission will be in a position shortly to resume activities in that regard; but under the present emergency situation it is not possible for the Land Commission to function in the normal way. Deputy O'Higgins said that he was anxious to give me ten minutes in which to reply. Now, the case made by Deputies O'Higgins, Flanagan and Davin is really no case at all. I have nothing to reply to, but I should like to clear up this question of the deputation, because I was not quite clear on the matter when I spoke during the afternoon, but I have a note here, and this is the note:

"I met Deputy Flanagan at Leinster House and I understand that Deputies Davin and O'Higgins were in touch with my office here in regard to my seeing a deputation. I pointed out to Deputy Flanagan that no useful purpose would be served by my seeing a deputation. He was desirous, however, he informed me, of putting before me reasons why the house at Brockley Park should be preserved and, while I again pointed out to him the futility of a deputation which intended merely to discuss a matter of this sort, I told him that if the deputation had any points to make in regard to the artistic value or historical interest of the building, I should be prepared to hear them and, while the preservation of the building, even in this case, was not a matter for the Land Commission, I should be glad to make representations to the Government if any proof were adduced of the historic interest or artistic value."

I told him that, with regard to the acquisition of land, there was no use in my seeing a deputation, but he said he was desirous of putting before me reasons why the house at Brockley Park should be preserved. While I again pointed out the futility of seeing a deputation to discuss a matter of that sort, I said that, if the deputation had any points to make in regard to the artistic value or historic associations of the building, I would be prepared to see them. Even though that question was not a matter for the Land Commission, I would be glad to make representations to the Government, if any proof could be produced of the historical interest or artistic value of the building. The deputation came on the question of the building.

And what was discussed?

The deputation did not refer at all to the building. Deputy Flanagan arranged the deputation simply on the question of discussing the estate.

The building and lands—the estate.

The lands were discussed at the meeting. Now, I am surprised at Deputy O'Higgins. In spite of Deputy Flanagan's allegation of my friendship with speculators and very rich men, I am not very friendly to speculators and I always distrust very rich men. But Deputy O'Higgins has made a statement that might be considered cold-bloodedly and calmly by the Dáil: that is, that it is proposed to cut up this particular estate into 50-acre holdings, small compact holdings. I would like to know what the Dáil thinks about that. Is there anything wrong about it? If we had farmers in the country inclined to purchase, and capable of purchasing, 50 acres of land to work it as a farm, without aid or interference from the Land Commission, we would be much more sure of effective farm work being done. Men who intend to stand on their own feet, and who are capable of doing so, are of far more value to the nation than men who have to be helped by any Department of State. If the only charge in regard to this particular matter is that the land is to be cut up into 50-acre holdings, that charge is not a very sound one.

Why does not the Land Commission auction the land, then, if that is Government policy?

This man is a public benefactor? Is that the Minister's point?

I do not suggest that he is, but I say that a man who puts up his money for 50 acres of land is much more likely to be a sound and good farmer than the man who has to depend on the State.

What about the man who is getting away with the swag?

The Minister must be allowed to carry on without interruptions.

The man is a public benefactor?

And that is not Government policy.

It is a complete departure from Government policy.

Deputy Hughes is an adept at twisting statements, but he must not try to put into my mouth statements that I did not make. Deputy O'Higgins' Party has very definitely insisted, over all the years I have listened to them, on the right of a man to his own holding.

And has argued that legislation by this Government has destroyed security of tenure.

I think that a man has a right to sell his holding how, when and to whom he likes.

That applied to the previous holding.

And the owner in fee simple has a perfect right to dispose of his land in the best market at his disposal.

That is, the man who owns it for 24 hours?

The Land Commission, if it is to be effective, must work on some definite and defined plan. It must examine the land situation in any particular county where the need of its operations exists. It cannot be concerned with the holdings that are sold in any particular county and which are only brought to its attention, immediately the sale is advertised, by any particular Deputy in this House. The Land Commission cannot take up estates simply because they are advertised for sale.

At 12 months' notice?

Deputy O'Higgins's Party has time and again made it a criminal charge against the Fianna Fáil Government that they have done this thing, that they have tried to warn off the would-be purchasers of land by suggesting that the Land Commission should take immediate action by way of acquiring the land. I think that is grossly unfair.

On a point of correction, I tried to make it very clear to the Minister that we stood for the right of the original holder to sell the land. It was when the next purchaser proceeded to subdivide it and resell it for a profit, during the emergency, that we took exception.

That is quite logical. A man owned land and had a right to sell it when, how and to whom he likes. The man who purchases is the owner. Surely, if the first man had a right to sell, the second has the right to sell to whom he likes and how he likes. It seems to me perfectly clear.

Is that Government policy?

The Deputy knows very well what Government policy is. He has criticised it often enough and he has criticised it for doing the very things he now advocates.

I do not recognise it in the way it is being expounded to-night.

If Deputies had made any particular case——

I am afraid I shall have to closure the Minister. The time is up.

——against this sale and purchase of land by private individuals to private individuals, I possibly would be able to find an answer, but no case has been made by any Deputy in regard to the matter. Like Deputy Gorry, I do wish we would at some time have a much longer and more prepared debate on the matter so that we might clear our minds definitely as to what the policy of the Land Commission is, and, if Deputies like, what it ought to be.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.45 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Friday, September 29th, 1944.

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