On the motion for the adjournment Deputy Flanagan has given notice to raise the subject matter of Question 21 on to-day's Order Paper.
Public Business. - Adjournment Debate—Acquisition of Leix Lands.
It is with regret that I detain the House to-night to raise this matter but, in view of the most unsatisfactory reply which I received from the Minister for Lands to-day in reply to a question which I put to him which concerns my constituents to a very great extent, I am compelled to raise it with a view to securing further information from the Minister concerning the lands of Brockley Park, Stradbally, and Lamberton Park, Timahoe, in the County of Leix. Some months ago the Minister for Lands met a deputation of Deputies representing the constituency of Leix-Offaly. He heard the full facts of the case which I am raising to-night. He heard that a fabulously wealthy man, a Scotsman, came down to County Leix, as he came down to other counties, and purchased a huge farm convenient to the small town of Stradbally and demolished the mansion on it, while in that district you have smallholders, landless men and farmers' sons, young men who are well prepared both with implements and money to equip and work lands.
Now, I would be the first man, as the Minister and House know, who would be inclined to welcome a stranger to my own county to purchase a farm if that stranger would work the land for the benefit of the nation. We have had the Minister, together with his colleague the Minister for Agriculture and the Taoiseach, going around to county committees of agriculture and calling upon farmers to grow more wheat, beet, and other crops in order to save the nation from starvation. Yet a man comes along to deprive local people of their God-given right to the land. That man does not want land for the purpose of producing food, because he told me himself on the 21st of the month that his only hobby is farming. But farming is not a hobby to my constituents; it is their bread and butter, even though it may be Mr. Davy Frame's hobby.
I must say that I am thoroughly disgusted with the attitude that the Minister and the Government have taken up so far as land division is concerned, because I think land division is the most essential and most important operation that could be put into force at the present time. From that town of Stradbally you have young men lining up day after day outside the Labour Exchange in Portlaoighise with a view to enrolling for work in Great Britain because there is none at home. Most of these young men are the sons of small farmers. When a small farmer has a holding of, we will say, 15, 20 or 25 acres, it is impossible for him to keep himself and his wife and his sons on that land. Some of them have to go. Is it not a disgraceful state of affairs when we see huge estates, such as the estates I referred to, being allowed to be grabbed by a monster like this gentleman who comes plundering through the country as Cromwell came——
The Deputy should not refer to any member of the House as a "monster".
I was not referring to the Chair or the Minister as a monster, but to Mr. Davy Frame.
That is very much worse, because Mr. Frame is not in a position to defend himself. The Deputy must not attack any person or use opprobrious language in reference to any person who is not in the House.
As a county councillor I have handed into the county manager——
I take it the Deputy is withdrawing the epithet "monster"?
I withdraw the expression "monster" with pleasure. The Leix County Council have under consideration at the present time a scheme for the erection of a number of labourers' cottages on these lands. On the 21st of this month a public auction was held for the sale of these lands at Brockley Park and Lamberton Park. Mr. Frame attended the auction, and I, a Deputy representing the constituency, also attended it. There was no bid for the lands; no one offered to purchase them. Mr. Frame informed a deputation the same evening that he was willing to give over the lands to the Land Commission, if the Land Commission would take the lands.
When I approached him, he said: "I do not know what the Leix-Offaly Deputies want. Deputy O'Higgins, Deputy Davin and Deputy Flanagan want the Land Commission to acquire and divide the lands, while other Deputies approached me to sell the lands." I asked him who approached him with a view to the sale of the lands and he said the chairman of the Portlaoighise Fianna Fáil Comhairle Ceanntair wrote a letter and, in Kelly's Hotel, joined with Deputy P.J. Gorry in asking him to arrange for the sale of the lands behind the backs of the people. It is a disgraceful state of affairs, when Deputies who have the interests of their constituents at heart are anxious that the Government should do their duty, to see a Government Deputy doing that. This Deputy did not carry on this interview with Mr. Frame without the full consent of the Minister for Lands. I may be wrong, but I am convinced of it from information Mr. Frame gave in public. He said he was asked by Deputy Gorry to arrange for the sale of the lands to certain people. He did not say that to me personally, but he said it in the presence of about 300 people who were present at the auction. It is in order to expose the rottenness of the whole thing that I raise this matter on the adjournment and demand an explanation from the Minister as to why some action has not been taken.
We have heard a lot of talk in this House to-day about safeguarding the people against the dangers of tuberculosis. Does the Minister realise that in Stradbally a man named Collins is supplying poor families with milk and that that man will be compelled to sell his stock, with the result that grave hardship will be inflicted on the poorer classes in Stradbally, because Mr. Frame acquired these lands and refused even to give him conacre to graze his cattle. That is an appalling state of affairs. As a representative of the people, I cannot but protest in the strongest possible manner against the treatment of my constituents by the Government. I had not intended to deal with the matter as I have, but I want the Land Commission to act in a commonsense manner.
We are told that, owing to the emergency, these lands cannot be acquired by the Land Commission. I want the Minister to explain what he means by the expression "the emergency". Everything of importance to the people is held up owing to the emergency. What is the emergency? Every Deputy is not blessed with an abundance of common sense and intelligence. Probably the majority of Deputies understand the meaning of the expression "the emergency", but for my part I cannot understand it. I think the Minister and the Government are using the emergency as a cloak, just because they do not want to carry out the promises made at various elections. I am convinced that land division is necessary and the Minister should set aside his order restricting land division.
The reason I went to the sale of these lands was to give my old friends and neighbours a word of advice. I would not like to see a man like Mr. Frame coming to my county and putting lands up for sale and my constituents having to purchase these lands at a war price. We know from experience that mighty and strong Governments have ruled with a strong hand and we saw how they collapsed in 24 hours. There is a mighty and strong Government ruling here to-day. In 24 hours it could collapse, or in five years it could collapse. If I have any influence with the Government—and there is nothing surer than that I will be a T.D., if God spares me, without any thanks to Fianna Fáil—I will use all the influence possible to see that such lands will be taken from these people at rock-bottom prices and divided amongst smallholders and landless men.
That was the reason why I turned up at the auction and not for the purpose of being a rebel or breaking the law, as the Gárda Síochána appeared to believe. I wanted to give them friendly advice to have nothing to do with the land, as they would only make Mr. Frame fatter and richer, while they would become thinner and poorer. I would have been neglecting my duty if I allowed those people to purchase the land, because they would be buying it at a war price. I am convinced that if Fianna Fáil does not do it, someone else will do it and this estate will be taken from them again at rock-bottom price and then they will be losing their money. I would be neglecting my duty if I had done anything else.
I think I have pointed out very clearly that there is great demand for the division of these lands. The Minister is going to get up in a few moments, and although he is allowed 10 or 15 minutes to reply to a question raised on the adjournment, I am convinced he will close this matter inside three minutes. He will say, as he said to-day, that owing to the emergency restrictions no action can be taken. If that is the Fianna Fáil policy of land division, we are glad to know it. The people in my constituency are thoroughly disgusted with the procedure taken regarding the division of estates. The Land Commission are not doing their job. At present they are doing nothing but collecting rents and sending out six-day notices. That is all I see happening, and there is no one who goes up the steps of the Land Commission as often as I do. Every time I go up, to have a stay put on something, in the county registrar's office in Portlaoighise or Tullamore, that is all I see the Land Commission doing. They are doing nothing beneficial to the people. Since I was elected a Deputy —and that is only a couple of years ago—I see the Land Commission doing practically nothing to relieve congestion in my county.
I want to make it clear to the Minister before I sit down that the lands are there at the present time derelict —a huge farm, a whole stretch of the countryside, the best part of the County Leix—owned by the manager or owner of the Hammond Lane Foundry. That man will not sell those lands—there is nothing surer than that. That is not a threat but he cannot have it any way he likes to have it. I do not care whether it is Davy Frame, Tommy Frame, Dicky Frame or Harry Frame—it is all the same who is in the land. I want to see the land divided and that is all about it. I have nothing personal against Mr. Frame, but I insist on the Government doing its duty. The Minister should do his duty as Minister for Lands and see that smallholders and landless men of this district are provided for. They are well prepared financially and are equipped to work the land and they should get the land which Fintan Lawlor spoke about—"The land of Ireland for the people of Ireland, to have and to hold, from God alone who gave it."
If Deputy Flanagan is blessed with the abundance of common sense that is available in this House, he has not shown a tremendous amount of common sense in raising this matter on the adjournment. His reason for raising it on the adjournment was that he did not get a satisfactory answer to a question he put down to-day. I have been listening as carefully as possible to try to find any enlightenment in his speech so that I may give him any further information he needs in order that he may exactly understand the attitude of the Land Commission in this matter.
This question in regard to the lands at Brockley Park was on the Order Paper a number of times, and some time ago it was raised on the adjournment. On that occasion, speeches, even with less point to them, were made by Deputies with much more experience than Deputy Flanagan. Having listened to Deputy Flanagan explaining why he was at the auction at Brockley Park, it seemed to me that the only reason he raised this matter on the adjournment was to utter threats here, under cover of his privilege in this House, that he was afraid to utter when he attended the auction. Whomever he may threaten, there is very little use in his threatening me or threatening the Land Commission. The commission has a certain duty to perform, and it does perform it. It must be permitted to take its own line of action, as it has more definitely at its disposal information as to where the greatest difficulty is in the country with regard to land division or any activity associated with it.
Deputy Flanagan's plea would be, I take it, that there is a certain amount of congestion in the Stradbally area. There is much more virulent congestion in many other areas but, because of the difficulties under which the Land Commission have had to operate for the past five years, when a great proportion of their staff had to be given to other Departments during this emergency, they have not been able to touch much more difficult and more urgent problems than that obtaining in Stradbally. The Land Commission does know exactly where the shoe pinches hardest in regard to land division and land acquisition, much better than Deputy Flanagan. Therefore, it must be permitted to use its own judgment as to where its activity is most needed—and that is not in Stradbally.
I, as little as Deputy Flanagan, like to see unemployment, and to find men lining up at labour exchanges. The Farmers' Party here claims to speak officially for the farmers in this country, but that Party would hardly suggest that we would get the best type of allottee for Land Commission farms in the line at the labour exchange. Time and again since I came into this House, I have stressed that the business of the commission is to create farms and to put farmers on them— men who are capable of farming, who know something about it and who have a certain modicum of capital and stock, so that they can make a going concern of the farm, the houses and the buildings given to them by the commission. I do not think we will get that type of man at the labour exchange. I do not say that by way of reflection on any man who has to attend at the exchange. Each man has his own particular qualities and the qualities needed for farming are not likely to be found definitely in the men who attend the labour exchanges.
Deputy Flanagan raised this question on the adjournment because he wanted a clear answer to the question he asked. The question he asked was whether I was aware—
"that the lands of Mr. David Frame at Brockley Park, Stradbally and Lamberton Park, Timahoe, County Leix, were offered for sale at a public auction on the 21st January, 1945, and were not sold——"
I am aware that they were offered for sale at the auction. I am aware that they were not sold and I so stated in my answer to the question to-day—
"that the owner informed a deputation during the sale that he was prepared to give the lands over to the Land Commission——"
I am not aware that he so informed the deputation.
Am I not after telling the Minister that?
I am not aware of it, I have heard nothing about it, I know nothing of the discussion or what the purport of the discussion was or what the result was. I so stated this afternoon—
"and that there is a local agitation for the division of these two farms——"
There appears to be. But whether the local agitation is confined to Deputy Flanagan's anxiety for his continuance as a Deputy or to real congestion in the area, I am not quite clear.
At any rate, the chief business of the Land Commission is not land acquisition and land division. That is merely a portion of the work. If I were to suggest the most vital and urgent prolem in the Land Commission, it is the vesting of 76,000 tenants who already are in possession of their lands. That is the most urgent for many reasons, for the sake of the farmers and for the sake of food production.
We had recently in the Seanad a Bill put forward demanding that the Land Commission, in purchasing land for division among uneconomic holders and landless men, should pay the market price. It is very hard to define what the market price is, but we all know that, if the Commission goes into the open market to purchase land, there will be a bull movement in the land market and a very high price will be demanded. Everybody knows that at present there are very high prices for land. No matter how fairly the Land Commission may wish to deal with the allottees, they must take into consideration some sense of the market value, in fixing the price which they will pay for land. If land has to be purchased at the present price on a large scale, we shall place an exceptionally heavy burden on the taxpayer. As well as that, we shall place a very heavy burden of repayment on the allottee. Even if the emergency conditions had not deprived the Land Commission in great measure of its inspectorate staff, it would be unwise for the Land Commission, unfair to the taxpayer and very unfair to the allottees, to go into the market at the moment and purchase large quantities of land at high inflated prices.
I answered Deputy Flanagan's question fully and adequately this afternoon. There was no point he raised on the adjournment that I have to meet. I am as anxious as he is, and the Government is an anxious as he is, to put our farming economy on a sound and proper basis. That is part of the Land Commission's work. We shall do that as quickly as we can do it with wisdom, and I am afraid that, if Deputy Flanagan is going to continue as a young man in a hurry, he will find that things move slowly in this life, particularly in politics.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 1st February, 1945.