Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 27 Apr 1945

Vol. 96 No. 25

Committee on Finance. - Vote 45—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

An tAire Oideachais (Tomás O Deirg)

Bhí mé ag tagairt, nuair cuireadh an Dáil ar ath-ló aréir, dona scoltacha gairm-oideachais i rith an tseisiúin 1943-44. Bhí 30,000 dalta ag freastal ar ranganna oíche i rith an tseisiúin seo. A bhfurmhór sin is daoine iad a bhíos ag obair i rith an lae agus is lena thuille oiliúna a fháil ar a gceird a ghníos siad freastal ar na ranganna sin. Ar na ceirdeanna a bhíos ar siúl ag a leithéidí sin, tá luaidheadóireacht, meicníocht, meicníocht garáiste, siúinéireacht, aibhléis, ceimiceacht agus obair leic-mhiotail.

Gan trácht ar na gnáth-chúrsaí lae agus oíche chuir na coistí gairm-oideachais cúrsaí speisialta ar bun ó am go ham. Cúrsaí iad sin a d'fheil do thionnscail nua-bhunaithe. Is do réir na hoiliúna áithride a bhí de dhíth ar na hoibrithe sna ceanntair faoi leith a tugadh an ceanntair do gach ceann de na nua-thionnscail. I gcuid de na cásanna is i scoil ghairm-oideachais an cheanntair a tugadh an oiliúint, i gcásanna eile is sa monarchain nua, le cuidiú na mbainisteoirí, a tugadh í agus i roinnt eile cás is amhlaidh a toghadh na printíseachta nó na foghluimtheoirí as na mic léighinn a bhí ag freastal scoil ghairm-oideachais an cheanntair. Annsin cuireadh go hionad áithrid iad i gcóir oiliúna speisialta.

Cúrsaí oiliúna gearra ab' ea iad sin mar ní bhíodh aon oibritheoirí eile de dhíth ar an monarchain go ceann achair mhaith tar éis oiliúna na céadbhuíne. Sna cásanna a nglactar printíseachta isteach gach bliain agus a mbíonn oiliúint ar feadh tréimhse roinnt fada riachtanach tá scéimeanna seasmhacha ann ina gcóir. Siad na coistí gairm-oideachais agus coistí de chuid na gceárd ag cur comhairle ortha a rialaíos na scéimeanna sin.

Ni lia céird ná scéim. Rinne na coistí gairm-oideachais a seacht míle dícheall le freastal ar thionnscail agus ar ghnóthaí eile a bhí ag déanamh iarracht le blianta gairide anuas le oiliúint fheiliúnach a thabhairt dá gcuid printíseach. Níl cruthú is fearr ar sin ná a bhfuil de scéimeanna ann i gcóir na hócáide agus a sheasmhaí atá siad. Níl aon lá ó ritheadh an tAcht Gairm-Oideachais sa mbliain 1930 nach bhfuil an gairm-oideachas á leathnú faoi'n tuaith. Ón mbliain sin i leith tóigeadh 101 scoil sna sráidbhailte agus sna bailte móra sna ceanntair faoi'n tuaith. Na cúrsaí oiliúna a leagtar amach do ranganna lae agus do ranganna oíche na scol sin is cúrsaí iad a fheileas do dhaoine atá ag plé le talmhaíocht nó a bhfuil sé ar intinn acu a dhul ag plé leis an talmhaíocht. Tá garrdha ag dul le gach scoil ionnas gur féidir cleachtadh a fháil ar eolaíocht tuaithe ann. Níl aon bharr curaíochta nach féidir léargus a thabhairt ar gach ní a bhaineas leis sa ngarrdha sin. Rinneadh gach uile iarracht ar obair adhmaid, ar fhoirgníocht agus ar obair tighe a theagasc i gcaoi go mbeadh an t-eólas feiliúnach do mhuintir na tuaithe. Gan trácht ar an oiliúint a tugtar sa rang is mór an lán a rinneadh le aghaidh na bhfeilméaraí a tharraingt ar scoil an cheanntair agus le cuidiú a thabhairt dóibh ó thaobh oideachais agus ar bhealaigh nach é. Chuige sin bunaíodh scéimeanna le síolta a thástáil, scéimeanna maidir le gáirdíní tighe, buíeanta díospoireachta agus aroile. De thoradh comhdhála a bhí idir ionadaithe ó Chumann Gairm-oideachais na hÉireann, ionadaithe ón Roinn Talmhaíochta agus ionadaithe ón Roinn Oideachais cuireadh meamram os comhair na gCoistí Gairm-oideachais. Séard a bhí sa meamram san trácht ar an gcaoi a bhféadfadh na hoidí a theagascann tuaith-eolaíocht na scoltacha gairm-oideachais agus teagascthóirí na Roinne Talmhaíochta oibriú as lámha a chéile. Is mór an t-abhar dóchais an toradh a tháinig as an scéal sin.

I rith na bliana 1942-43 cuireadh 1,260,255 uair an chloig isteach ag freastal ar na ranganna tighis. Is ar ranganna lán-aimsire nó ranganna lae páirt-aimsire a cuireadh furmhór an ama sin isteach. Tá cláir ceadaithe leagtha amach i gcoir na ranganna go léir, is cuma más ranganna lae nó ranganna oíche iad. Mar abhair teagaisc ar na cláir sin tá cócaireacht, obair shnáthaide agus níchán. Lena chur ar chumas na ndaltaí obair an tighe a dhéanamh a leagtar amach na cláir sin agus tugann cigirí agus scrúduitheoirí deágh-thuairisc faoi'n toradh a bhíos ar an obair.

I gcomórtas le habhair eile déantaí a lán teagaisc ar abhair tráchtála faoi na sean-cnoistí ceard-oideachais. Is léir ó na figiúrí atá ar fáil nach amhlaidh atá an scéal anois. On mbliain 1927 i leith tháinig ísliú ó 77 fán gcéad go dtí 30 fán gcéad ar an líon daltaí atá ag foghluim tráchtála sna scoltacha gairm-oideachais. I rith na gcúig mblian déag seo a chuaidh tharainn tháinig méadú do réir 100 fán gcéad ar líon na n-oídí a theascann abhair eile ach níor tháinig ach méadú do réir 42 fán gcéad ar líon na n-oidí tráchtála. Tháinig fás mór faoi theagasc tuaith - eolaíochta, faoi theagasc innealtóireachta, faoi theagasc tighis, faoi theagasc obair láimhe agus faoi theagasc abhair eile nach iad. Sén toradh atá air sin nach raibh ar an líon oidí a bhí ag teagasc ins na scoltacha gairm-oideachais sa mbliain 1944-45 ach 13 fán gcéad d'oidí tráchtala gí gur oidí tráchtála 25 fán gcéad den líon oidí a bhí ag teagasc ins na scoltacha sin sa mbliain 1928.

Nuair a thosaigh na coistí gairm-oideachais ar a gcuid oibre sa mbliain 1930 bhí an-ghanntan áite orthu i gcóir ranganna faoi'n tuaith. Bhí ganntas forgnimh orthu sna bailte móra féin agus bhí droch-bhail ar chuid aéu. Tá na coistí sin tar éis foirgnimh nua deágh-chórithe a chur ar fáil inar féidir na habhair atá ar an gelár léinn a theagase go héifeachtach iontu. Ní scoltacha móra a bhfuil leagan-amach árd-nósach orthu atá ionntu má cuirtear i geomporáid le ceárd-scoltacha i dtíortha eile iad.

Ní fánach an toradh atá tagtha ar chuid a cúig d'Acht an GhairmOideachais i gCorcaigh agus i Luimneach; an t-aon dá áit inar cuireadh i bhfeidhm é. Tuairim is 900 dalta a rinne freastal ar an gcúrsa i gCorcaigh agus tuairim is 600 dalta i Luimneach. I dteannta na ngnáth-abhar leanúnacha teagasctar obair adhmaid do na buachaillí agus tigheas do na cailíní. Ni déantar faillíar ghnóthaí cultúradha eile seachas obair na rang. Cleachtar cluichí, aclaíocht choirp, an claisceadal agus dramaíocnt.

Tá an scéal dá scrúdú faoi láthair féachaint an gcuirfí an chuid sin den Acht i bhfeidhm i gCathair Átha Cliath agus i gCathair Phort Láirge. I rith na bliana seo, tháinig méadú ar an tinnreamh sa dá ionad atá fá stiúradh Chomhairle le Leas Óige. I mBaile Átha Cliath is ar na ranganna in obair láimhe is mó atá tóir. Tá tosaithe ag an gComhairle ar chuidiú a thabhairt do chumainn i gcóir cailíní.

Maidir leis an deontas-i-gcabhair atá á chur ar fáil do Choiste Ealaíon Stairiúil na hEireann fá fhó-mhír B 6 de bhótha i gcóir Eolaíochta is Ealaíon ba mhaith liom a mhiniú go bhfuil an Coiste seo ag teisclimie Stair faoi'n nGorta Mór a ullmhú agus a fhoillsiú. Bhí seo ar cheann de na nithe ba tábhachtaí dár tharla i nEirinn san 19ú céad ach níor foillsíodh aon chuntas iomlán saire faoi fós.

Tá rún ag an gCoiste cuntas iomlán ar an nGorta a fhoillsiú; an t-údar a bhí leis agus an toradh a bhí air ó thaobh an Gheilleagair agus ó thaobh na poilitíochta. Beidh beirt chomheagarthóirí air—an tOllamh R. Dudley Edwards agus an tOllamh T.W. Moody. Beidh buíon fionntóirí a toghfar go speisialta i geóir na hoibre ag gabháil do na coda áithride den obair. Beidh bliain eile ann ar a laghad sul a mbí an obair seo ullamh agus níl aon tsúil go dtárlóidh aon chostas i ngeall air i rith na bliana airgeadais seo. Ní foláir, áfach, le cead na Dála, suim airgid a chur ar fáil i gcóir an deontais a bhéarfar don Choiste i gcóir na bliana airgid seo chugainn. Beidh sin ag teastáil le híoc as an gcostas a thárlóidh má bhíonn an saothar ullamh i gcóir a fhoillsithe an tiáth sin. Meastar gur £1,500 an costas iomlán a bhainfeas leis an saothar.

Cuireadh os cóir na dála i Mí Feabhra seo a chuaidh tharainn an obair a bhí ar intinn a dhéanamh ar chuntais stairiúla a bhaineas le hÉirinn agus atá ar fáil i scríbhni thar lear. Tá sé ar intinn iad sin a scrúdú agus cóipeanna a dhéanamh díobh. Ionnas go mb'fheidir an obair thábhachtach seo a dhéanamh, cuireadh £600 ar fáil an tráth sin, fán meastachán breise i gcóir mo Roinne-se. Mar is eol do na teachtaí, i gcionn na gCuntas ar Éirinn atá ar fáil i gCaipéisí Náisiúnta na Spáinne, i Simancas atáthar ag dul i dtosach. Táthar tar éis beirt scoláirí móra—An tAthair Caineach Ó Maonaigh agus an Caiptín G. Ó hEaluighthe a chur don Spáinn ar son na Leabharlainne Náisiúnta. Déanfaidh siad scrúdú generálta ar na sean-scríbhní sin agus nuair is gá é déanfaidh siad socrú le cóipeanna a dhéanamh dhíobh. Ar scannáin a dhéanfas siad furmhór na gcóipeanna. Beidh £2,000 ag teastáil i gcóir na hoibre an bhliain airgeadais seo.

Seirbhís nua is ea an deontas i gcabhair atá á chur ar fáil do Institiúid Náisiúnta Scannán na hÉireann agus níl aon duine nach n-amhdóidh gur seirbhís an-tábhachtach í. De thoradh na moltaí a rinne coiste eadar-rannach a bhunaigh mé tamall ó shoin atá an tairgead seo á chur ar fáil. Sén fáth ar bhunaigh mé an coiste seo le scrúdú a dhéanamh ar cheist na scannán oideachais agus ar cheist scannán teangaidh Ghaeilge. Cuirfear leabharlann de scannáin fheilí iúnach ar fáil agus orthu sin beidh scannáin Ghaeilge. Is ina chóir sin an deontas-i-gcabhair. Tá ainm-sholáthar á dhéanamh freisin ins na meastacháin le híoc as costas a soláthruithe. Is fá stiúrú Institiúid na Scannán a cuirfear ar fáil iad ar son ranna Rialtais. Ceann de na coinníollacha a theigheas leis an deontas-i-gcabhair go mbeadh sé de cheart ag an Rialtas ionadaithe a ainmniú cur ar an gcoiste den Institiúid lena mbainfí na cúrsaí.

Tá Brainse na bhFoillseachán, nó "an Gúm" mar tugtar de gnáth air, bunaithe le 18 mbliana. I rith an achair sin, tá 844 leabhar Gaeilge foillithe ann. Bun-leabhra i nGaeilge 369 leabhar acu sin. Aistriúcháin 355 acu, leatháin nó leabhar ceoil 112 acu, is leabhar ar théarmaí teicniúla 8 gcinn acu. Téacs-leabhra i gcóir na meán-scol is ea 104 leabhar den iomlán agus ní mór nach bhfuil leabhra de gach uile chineál den litríocht ghenerálta mease na coda eile.

Tá ceann curtha ar an scéim dár thagair mé anuraidh, sé sin, téacs-leabhra i gcóir na hIolscoile a chur ar fáil. De thoradh comhdhála a bhí ann le gairid idir ionadaithe ón Roinn agus de chuid na hIolscoile, táthar ag súil gur gearr go mbeidh eagráin de roinnt téacsleabhar Gréigise agus de roinnt téacsleabhar Laidne, mar aon le téacs-leabhra. Staire, ullmhaithe. Díoladh go nuige seo 600,000 cóip de leabhra an "Ghúim".

Maidir leis na scoltacha saothair, níl aon easba slí i scoltacha na gcailíní. Mar le scoltacha na mbuachaillí níor tháining athrú orthy ón taobh sin den scéal i rith na bliana seo a chuaidh tharainn. Rinneadh fiosrúchán maidir lé roinnt buachaillí a dtáinig feabhas ar an saol dá dtuismitheoirí agus de thoradh an fhiosrúcháin sin leígeadh amach tuairim is 50 buachaill. Mhaolaigh sin beagán ar an gcruadhóg. Tá iarracht á dhéanamh, freisin, ar scoil eile do bhuachaillí a chur ar fáil in aice Bhaile Átha Cliath. Tá an t-arm thar éis scoil saothair na gCealla Beaga a fhágáil agus tá an cheist á scrúdú féachaint an mbainfí leas aisti arís mar scoil saothair.

Ceadaíodh íoc ar gach malrach dá bhfuil sna scoltacha saothair ón gcéad lá d'Iúl, 1944, ach gan a dhul thar an uimhir atá údraithe do gach scoil. On dáta sin amach, hárdaíodh ó 5/- go dtí 7/6 an tsuim a bheadh iníoctha ar gach malrach faoil sé bliana d'aois. Roimh an dáta sin ní déantaí íocaíocht ach ar son an líon malrach a bhí ceadaithe don scoil. Méadaíodh dá réir ón gcéad lá de Mhéan Fómhair, 1944, an deontas a bhí iníoctha ag na hudaráis aitiúla ar mhalraigh faoi sé bliana a bheadh sna scoltacha saothair.

I rith na bliana 1944, leigeadh a bhaile ar saoire suas le 2,100 duine de na malraigh a bhí sna scoltacha saothair. Tá an Roinn sásta nár diúltaíodh aon duine a leigean abhaile ar saoire nuair ab'fhéidir é nó nuair ba ionmholta é dhéanamh. Cuireadh turasannna ar fáil agus leigeadh amach ag déanamh aceir go leor de na malraigh nach ndeschaidh abhaile ar saoire.

Nuair a bhí an Meastachán Breise i gcóir Scoltacha Ceartúcháin agus Scoltacha Saothair os comhair na Dála anuraidh, mhínigh mé dhíbh gurb é an rud a bhí ar intinn a dhéanamh maidir leis an scoil cheartúcháin i gcóir cailíní a bhitheas tar éis a oscailt go gairid roimhe sin i gCill Mochoda, deontas caipitíochta a íoc ar shamhail-uimhir de 20 duine an chéad bhíain. I ngeall ar a laghad cailíní a bhí intí a cinneadh air sin. Ní mórán cailíní atá sa scoil seo fós—níl inti faoi láthair ach naonbhar—ach tá roinnt mhaith costais ag baint lena leithéid de scoil a choinneál ag imeacht agus ar an abhar sin b'éigin leanacht den socrú sin a luaídh mé agus an tsamhail uimhir ar a níocfar deontas caipitíochta a árdú go dtí 40. Ní mór roinnt leasuithe a dhéanamh ar an dlí ionnas gur féidir leas a bhaint as an scoil ceartúcháin seo i gcóir an chineál cailíiní a bhfuil an scoil ann dóibh. Tá súil agam moltaí ina chóir sin a chur os comhair na Dála go gairid.

General Mulcahy

I move the motion standing in my name:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

The Minister has indicated to us that the Irish committee on historical science, with the assistance of a number of research experts, is examining the history of the Great Famine in Ireland, that being one of the most important events in the history of the country, and that with the assistance of the research experts, they are proposing to spend £1,500 on examining into the causes of that Great Famine and the consequences of it, both economic and political. I am proposing, having heard that piece of information for the first time, to reduce that item in the Estimate that the Minister speaks of by £10, for the purpose of inquiring about this particular body and for the purpose of suggesting very seriously that we might leave the Great Famine, its causes, its social and economic consequences, alone just for a year or so and that we might relieve these historical scientists and these research experts of the task of looking so far back—it may not be so easy to lay hands on all the material that might be required—and transfer them to the Department of Education where all the up-to-date figures, statistics and records are available, and where there is happening to-day something that is going to have very grave social and economic consequences that could be avoided unlike the social and economic consequences of the famine.

Very urgent work requires to be carried out by way of examination and research. It would require somebody with a grip of historical science and a certain amount of capacity for research to examine what is happening to-day in the various caverns of the Department of Education, and to assess the technical, historical and research qualities of what the social and economic consequences to this country are going to be to-morrow, and in the years that are in front of us, because of the great famine in ideas, in co-ordination, in work, in personnel and in anything that pertains to education that exists in the Department of Education to-day. Is this statement which appears on page 333 of the Report of the Commission on Vocational Organisation a maligning of this country or of its institutions? We read:—

"Secondary, vocational and agricultural schools all complain of the defective general education of pupils coming to them from primary schools."

Is that mere representation and mal gnity, and is there any foundation for it? "The standard of some of the pupils that we receive at the Sligo Vocational School was something shocking," said Mr. D.A. Mulcahy, C.E.O., at a meeting of the school committee. He added that "it was not so bad this year, but it was terribly low, so much so that one could hardly credit it". Is that a lying statement? Is it a misrepresentation of the situation? Is it necessary that we should have to gather together newspaper cuttings from the daily and local papers for a month, say, during the last 12 months in order to persuade the House or the Minister that an examination of a systematic kind is required to be carried out either to allay these lies, if they are lies, or to deal with a terribly important subject, and the terribly important functions in our national life for which the Minister is responsible? In most of the countries known to us that have an opportunity for doing it, although their difficulties are great, gigantic reforms are being carried out in the realm of education, in organising the curricula, in harmonising the various branches of education, in getting a greater number, and higher quality of teachers, so as to secure that the best will be got in the teaching profession, and so that they will be equipped to give the best possible kind of education to the children who are growing up in those countries.

We are dealing with something basic and fundamental to our economic, social and spiritual future when we are dealing with education. The reports that we have on education we find concentrated in the report of the Vocational Organisation Commission and scattered in fragments of information in our daily and local Press. The kind of statement that we had from the Minister to-day is becoming traditional with him. It is to hide, under a set of comments and figures on the bare items in the Estimate, any ideas that he may have with regard to education, with regard to any progress that is being made in a definite kind of way, any information with regard to any improvements in the curricula or with regard to the results that are being achieved. There was no note of recognition from him of the views that have been expressed on general education by organisations of employers or of workers in agriculture, in industry and commerce. There was no note of recognition from him that there is criticism there. Just as there were social and economic consequences of the Great Famine, there are to-day, and there will be to-morrow, social and economic consequences if the Department of Education does not go about its job, and if this House and the various sections of our people that are concerned with knowing where this country is going, and how it is preparing for the future, do not step in and raise their voices so clearly that the Minister cannot come into this House and ignore the tragic event that is happening in this country to-day, and the tragic consequences that will flow from it.

We could very well be in the position 40 or 50 years hence that some Irish committee on historical science would be engaged examining what happened here in 1945 and 1946. What would it find? That our people were left utterly incapable of dealing with the work of their own country or of taking their stand in the world, and it would find the explanation for that failure in the Department of Education. We have men with a scientific outlook on history and men capable of research. Why not turn them on to our educational position at the present time and let us leave the famine and what happened then—it cannot be remedied now—alone for a short time? Instead, let us deal with the dangers and difficulties that threaten us to-day. If we do not avoid them by our own effort the results are going to be shocking for the children and people of to-day.

Is the Minister seriously posing before this Parliament as a man who is standing over the spirit and work of Irish education in the way in which he looked at that spirit in the past? The Taoiseach and the Minister have indicated that this is the Assembly in which to discuss in detail educational matters. I deny that. You need only look at the House this is morning to realise whether this is true or not. We are meeting here at a time of the year when vital work requires to be done in agriculture in every county. Even Deputies who are here could be much more effectively occupied at home. Does the Minister expect that the different members of the House will be here this morning, equipped with all the details, to deal with the various aspects of these Estimates? Does he expect them to follow him through the details of his statement? If the Minister would deal with his outlook and approach to education, then we might be in a position to have a real discussion on matters vitally affecting education. We cannot escape the consequences of the neglect of Irish education to-day and the sooner and the more urgently we direct and coerce the mind of the Minister into dealing with these matters, the fewer lives will be wasted and the fewer national and personal opportunities will be lost in the years to come. The more unhappiness will be kept from Irish homes and the brighter will be our hopes for the future if we succeed in doing that. The Bishop of Galway, speaking at the recent Congress of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, dealt with certain educational matters and said that the first matter, in order of importance in education, was what is taught; the second was the teacher, and the fulfilment of his sublime task with sincerity and efficiency, and the third, and last, was the building. Continuing, he said that it should be the object of educational policy to attract the best type of men and women into the teaching profession and to give them the best conditions the country could afford.

Two years ago, the Minister himself gave an elaborate description of what the teacher stood for in the country. Speaking at the annual Congress of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation in University College, Dublin, as reported in the Press, he said:—

"When the war was over, however it ended, nothing could be as it was before. There would be an era of new creation, new planning, new building. In this great scheme teachers everywhere must take an essential part. Small nations will have their own special problems, too, and not the least of ours will be the preservation of our language and our individuality as a nation. We must equip ourselves to meet postwar trade competition and, at the same time, not only maintain our present standards but raise them progressively in every sphere of national life: education, social service, agriculture, industry and commerce. To accomplish this, we must plan carefully and methodically and, in particular, must train the youth to take their place in the nation's advance. Education and training of over 70 per cent. of those whose work would be carried out on the farms, factories, shops and offices would, in the future, be either mainly or entirely in the teachers' hands, and the work of all other schools would depend on them, since their task was the basic one, the laying of a solid foundation, without which no specialist superstructure could be built or maintained. It is not too much to say, therefore, that the future development of our country will depend on your leadership more than on that of any other body. What was the essential task of such leadership? The giving to the coming generation of a keen sense of social service, such a feeling for the community, such knowledge of it, such grasp of its continuity, its profound values, its inherited obligations as would enable that generation which now look to the teachers for inspiration to face the tremendous task of shaping the new Ireland. No greater duty has been laid on any body of men and women than the one laid on you—a heavier task than is laid on the shoulders of any other teachers in the world in that, in addition to the great task of education you have been asked to perform, another equally heavy task has been given to you such as no other body of primary teachers has been asked to carry, the rescue of the greatest heritage of our race, our native language. It is a terrific task, a task one might say for supermen, that we have undertaken. Many have not grasped its magnitude clearly and some few showed signs of discouragement, because they expected results too easily. Those who have borne the brunt and burden of the work are not discouraged, because they knew the task was a hard one, which had to be faced with determination and not with any idea that difficulties could be solved otherwise than by application and hard work."

The Minister's description of what the teacher stands for is not an exaggeration. I ask him to throw his mind back to the time when, perhaps, communing with himself, he wrote that, and to the spirit which animated him when he was addressing the men and women whom he then saw as the hope and help of their country. He should ask himself what is being done from his Department, on the one hand, and the Ministry of Finance, on the other, to enable these men and women to realise themselves. What chance is he giving them of making themselves people of faith and hope, with a sense of their position in the country with the realisation that those for whom they work know what is being done on their behalf and that those who are set up as a Ministry to help them are a source of help, encouragement and stimulation to them in the difficulties of their professional work and in their difficulties as parents and makers of homes. It is all very well to idealise a man or woman and send them off to do a job, but under what conditions are the teachers working in the schools and under what conditions are they rearing their families at home? On what occasions, here and elsewhere, is their work praised or estimated in any kind of way? It almost seems to me to-day that because they have difficulties and because they will not lie down and keep quiet about them, an endeavour is being made to hold them up to criticism as if they were people who were failing to discharge the public obligations they had undertaken and which the public was paying them for discharging.

Something must be done to improve the atmosphere in which our education is carried on. Something must be done to show that the men and women working in the Department and the men and women working as teachers are personalities such as according to our faith and outlook on humanity we believe human beings should be. Something must be done to bring harmony and concord amongst our workers in the educational sphere. That can be done only by placing a clear object in front of us and in front of them and by removing from the Department itself and the general position these frictions, whether they arise out of bad organisation of the work or the underpayment of the teachers themselves, which make real work impossible. Medical experts have been declaring more and more recently that anxiety and worry do? more to undermine health and to create disease than the most serious epidemics and there is no more worried or anxious section of our people than the people who are engaged in the work of teaching or the parents who are waiting expectantly to see what the teaching machinery can do to equip their children to earn a livelihood and to fit themselves into the economic system in after life.

It is very hard to know what particular aspect of the question can or should be discussed here because any attempt to deal with the matters that require attention in education would occupy a session of this House for at least a fortnight, even if a small proportion of the people here interested in education were able to gather all the information, put it in an orderly way and present it here so that the whole question might be properly discussed. I ask the Minister with regard to the general situation whether the statement in the Report of the Vocational Organisation Commission was an untrue statement, that is, that secondary vocational and agricultural schools were complaining of the defective general education of pupils coming to them from primary schools.

On the general question, the Minister speaks of the saving of the language. Again I have to recall to the Minister's notice the last bit of official information from the Department of Education on the condition of the language in the primary schools. The last information we have is contained in the report for the years 1941-42. There, speaking of the position of the language in the higher classes in the schools it says:—

"Is minic a leigtear i ndearmad ins na hArd-Ranga cuid mhait den eolas a bhíonn ag na daltai ag teacht Ó na bun-ranga in ionad a ngreim ar an eolas san do láidriughadh agus é do chur i ndoimhe agus i leithne. Fiú amháin nuair ná leigtear dóibh an t-eolas a bhíonn aca do dhearmad ní cuirtear len a gcuid múnlaí cainnte ná len a bhfoclóir do réir mar is gábhadh é. Fágann san ná bíonn sé ar a gcumas na smaointe agus na tuairimí a thagann le fá intleachta agus le féachaint amach níos leithne ar an saoghal mór-thimcheall do nochtadh."

Winding up with regard to the question of reading in English or Irish it says:—

"Caillemhaint an-mhor do na daltaí é sin mar ni bhionn dúil sa leigheamh aca de bharr a geuid scolaidheachta."

That complaint is concerned with the higher classes and would indicate that in the greater number of schools the pupils, so far from increasing their knowledge of Irish, had suffered a diminution in the knowledge they had acquired in the lower classes. They are getting no additional grip of the language to fit the widening mind of the children as they pass from the lower classes to the higher classes. The last time I challenged the Minister on that report he had not read the report. I should like to ask what examination he has given to the situation disclosed there now?

Mr. Derrig

May I say, as the Deputy has raised that question, that that was a slip on my part? The position was that I had seen the report before it went to the printer. What I did say, and what was the subject of comment outside, has not been understood. What I meant to explain, and what I should have explained, was that the report had gone to the printers some time after I had seen it. I was not quite sure when the Deputy asked me the question if I had seen a copy of the report after it had come from the printer. Of course, I see all these reports before they are published.

General Mulcahy

I can quite understand the Minister's slip, although it is difficult to imagine that a Minister who wants to place the Irish language in the position in which we all want to place it—in a high and important position—could have read that report and not have its contents burn into his soul. I could understand the position the Minister speaks of, but I cannot understand why we have never got any report or any explanation of any kind from him as to why the circumstances are such as they are or why, getting that report in 1941-42 we should get no reference in the world to the position of the language in the primary schools in the following report for the year 1942-43. The situation was completely glossed over when we discussed the report in the ordinary way following its issue and we heard nothing, good, bad or indifferent since.

What was the report for the year 1942-43 under the heading "An obair ins na Scoileanna"? Nothing but the tremendous work the teacher has to do, the importance of the teacher's position—all, no doubt, very important if it could be shown that there is any appreciation in what is recorded in that report under that heading for the year 1942-43 any more than there was any appreciation for what is recorded in the report under the same heading for the year 1941-42 with regard to the state of Irish in the higher classes in the primary schools and the capacity of the children to read in English and Irish when they leave school. As far as we can see there is as little attention paid to what is in the report with regard to the position and the importance of the teacher as there was to the condition of the Irish language in the previous report. It says with regard to the teacher:

"Chun go mbéadh sé ar chumas oide a chuid dualgaisí do chóimhlíonadh ar fóghnamh, níor mhór dó ar an gcéad dul síos na scoláirí agus na tosca a bhaineann len a saoghal leathsmuigh den scoil a thuiscint."

Lator, it says:—

"Tá fhios ag an oide cliste gur duine fé leith le tréithe, agus le pearsantacht fé leith, gach dalta, agus surab é a dhualgas a dhicheall a dhéanamh chun tréithe éagsamhla san do mhúnlú agus d'fhorbairt".

Again, it says:—

"Caithfear cuimhneamh, ámh, gur beag de scoláirí na mbun-scol a gheibheann caoi ar dhul thar an mbun-scoil len a gciud scolaidheachta. Bíonn ar a bhfurmhór mór, mar sin, aghaidh a thabhairt ar an saoghal agus tabhairt fé shlighebheathadh de shaghas éigin a bhaint amach dóibh féin nuair a bhíonn ceithre bliadhna déag d'aois slánuighthe aca".

The teachers must understand the whole background of the children's lives on the one hand; they must understand that children differ very much from one another in their dispositions and in their qualities and in their capacities, and they must draw out all those different capacities and qualities from the various children. What is the Minister doing to help the teachers to face all that?

There is a very considerable volume of complaint among teachers with regard to their salaries at the present time. Concern in that regard has been voiced by the Hierarchy as a whole, by individual members of the Hierarchy, by the Press and by the public. The fact is that in the City of Dublin, at any rate, there are up to, say, 200 primary school teachers in the hands of moneylenders, struggling to do their duty by their families under the salary conditions which exist at the present time. Does the Minister know that? There is in the Civil Service a regulation that if an official of, say, the Department of Education is seriously encumbered with debts which he is not able to pay, and if that matter is brought to the notice of his official superiors, he may be dismissed. I do not know whether we can be told why. At any rate, he would not be regarded as a suitable person to occupy the position of a civil servant. If it came to the notice of the Minister for Education that there are teachers in Dublin in that position—there are teachers in Dublin who are rearing their families to-day on borrowed money, because they could not otherwise pay their debts; they are trying to give their families a chance, whatever difficulties they may have themselves—would he dismiss them, and; if so, why? Would he dismiss them, at any rate, without a serious examination of the budget of a teacher living in Dublin and rearing a family? Would he do it without a comparison between the financial conditions of teachers who are asked to live here and those of teachers who are asked to live in the Six Counties and in Great Britain? Would he do it without an examination as to why is it that teachers are leaving Dublin to-day and going across to Great Britain to find employment there, even from some of the purely all-Irish speaking schools in the city? The British Government is able to take them over there and pay them during the period of training, and pay them substantially higher salaries than we are paying them, although we have been able to live here in peace for the last six years, while in Great Britain they have had to bear the shocking cost of war.

I have seen particulars of the weekly budgets of some of the teachers here in the city. Take the weekly budget of a teacher on the commencing salary of the scale, plus the emergency bonus, that is, £3 7s. a week. This is an unmarried teacher. His lodgings cost him £1 17s. 6d.; insurance, 4/-; subscription to his organisation, 1/-; church collection, 1/-; cigarettes, 5/-; papers, 1/6; clothes and boots, 10/-; laundry, 2/-; travelling expenses, that is, a contribution towards his holidays, 2/6; ordinary locomotion expenses in the city, 5/-; total, £3 9s. 6. He goes into debt to the extent of 2/6 every week, while having nothing for stationery or stamps, help to parents; recreation, dentists' or doctors bills, nothing at all to spend on his own additional education, and not the slightest chance of saving for marriage.

Take the case of a teacher on the maximum of the scale, plus emergency bonus—a married man with three children of 15, 17 and 18 years of age. His salary is £6 13s. a week. His outlay is: milk, 12/-; bread, 11/4; meat, £1 3s. 6d.; eggs, 12/-; bacon, 5/-; sugar, 2/6; tea, 11½d.; butter, 4½; jam, 4/-; vegetables, 7/-; after dinner sweet for the week—I suppose that is on Sunday—1/-; coffee and cocoa, 2/6; total, £4 6s. 2. That is all under the heading of food. Then there is lighting, heating, etc., 19/8; schooling expenses, £1; clothes, £1; insurance, 10/-; rent, rates, etc., £1. If these were added to the £4 6s. 2d., we would get a total of £8 15s. 10d. out of a salary of £6 13s., with nothing for recreation, for holidays, for dentists' or doctors' bills, or any of the other expenses which arise from time to time.

Take the case of a man and wife and two children; he has 13 years' service, and is aged 33 years. His weekly salary, including bonus and increments, is £6 4s. 0d. His weekly expenses are: rent, £1 15s. 0d.; four pints of milk daily, 11/1; meat, 16/-; grocer, £1 7s. 0d.; fuel, 8/-; light, 1/8; gas, 3/6; insurance, 4/-; subscription to the teacher's organisation, 1/-; church collection and dues, 1/-; chemist—for children's food; the children are young, 2/-; ten cigarettes per day, 5/-; total £5 15s. 3d., out of £6 4s 0d., with nothing for clothes, footwear, doctors, dentists, travelling expenses, repair or renewal of household effects, bicycle repairs, newspapers, stationery, stamps, laundry, subscriptions to various raffles or church draws, and nothing in the line of recreation. These are figures and facts that cannot escape the attention of anybody who examines them. The people who are asked to do these glorious things that the Minister spoke about in his address a few years ago, the people who are asked to be the second prop, but the prop without which the work cannot be done, are asked to be that type of person and to do that type of work under the conditions that these figures imply. It is no wonder that His Grace the Most Reverend Dr. Kinane, Coadjutor Archbishop of Cashel, should write two years ago to a public meeting held by the Irish National Teachers' Organisation in Clonmel:—

"I take the opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the excellent work which the national teachers of the Archdiocese of Cashel and Emly are doing for the Christian education of the children committed to their care and my sympathy with their desire to be free from those financial worries which are such an obstacle to their work and to their general happiness".

or that the Nenagh Guardian should write at the same time:—

"The future of Ireland depends to a great extent on the national teachers of Ireland. On them rests the responsibility of moulding the nation of to-morrow. Almost nine out of every ten children have to depend entirely on the national school for the education that will enable them to face the stern, unremitting struggle of life. Surely, then, it is of the most vital importance to the nation that the national teachers should be in a position to carry out their great task with the utmost efficiency. The teacher is next to the priest in importance. He must get the consideration that is his due. But the national teachers, far from being relieved of all burdens which would hinder their work, are so harassed by financial difficulties that they cannot give of their best; and, until the Government accedes to the teachers' just demands for fair treatment, they cannot expect the work of education to be carried out satisfactorily. Many people believe that the teachers are well paid. A glance through the published report of their meeting at Clonmel last Saturday will banish the misconception. Almost half the teachers receive less than £4 per week; one-sixth of the teachers receive from 39/- to 54/- per week—for work of the highest importance. All sections of the community acknowledge the just claims of the teachers, who, at all times in our history, have done mighty work in their schools for God and for Ireland, and who have now, to carry out the colossal task of reviving Irish. The Government cannot further delay in meeting their moderate demands."

That is the financial side.

What are the teachers asked to do in the schools? In the City of Dublin they are asked to deal with classes with which nobody could possibly deal. They are asked to take classes of 60, 70, 80 or 90 children. One teacher in Dublin had at one time a class of III children to deal with. Teachers may have to do that to-day. I got tired of putting down questions to the Minister to obtain information on the matter. I wanted to give him a chance to show that some kind of progress was being made in the reduction of the extraordinarily large infant classes in the City of Dublin: When you consider that the infants in these classes of 70, 80 or 90 children come from English-speaking homes and are going to a school where the work of the day has to be done through the medium of Irish; when you consider that there is now a break in the middle of the day that sends them home to their English-speaking homes again, you can realise the appalling task that a teacher has in teaching infants of that kind. It is very hard to understand that anybody with any conscience or anybody who knows anything about what teachers must do, believes that they can do it under these conditions.

In view of the conditions in Great Britain, I have been throwing out a kind of a challenge to the Minister for years past. I have pointed out that in Great Britain, where in 10 per cent. of the schools analogous to the primary schools here, there were more than 50 children on the roll, they had steadily brought that figure down by 1938 to something like 1.2 or 1.5 per cent. I held up that as a contrast to the position obtaining in the greater number of schools in the City of Dublin without any very great results coming about. Realising that education is the basic foundation of their social and economic future, in Great Britain, they are reducing the standard of 50 children on the roll to one of 30 children on the roll. Only in exceptional cases are they allowing 40 children on the roll to be the standard for the school. But they will not allow more than 30 children to be on the roll of any class where the majority of the children in the school are 12 years of age and upwards. Here we have boys and girls in the sixth standard with 60 and 65 on the rolls and we expect them to get the kind of education that will prepare them for the struggle in the modern world. We expect them to have the proficiency and fluency of an Irish speaker as well.

Although the Department realises so much the difference that exists between various classes of children as to give a special direction that the teachers must treat the children as individual entities, there is no recognition of that in the actual carrying out of the work in the schools in Dublin, there is no chance of any recognition being given to that fact. No allowance is made for the fact that some of the children may be subnormal. There is no arrangement in connection with the staffing of the schools or the size of the classes that suggests there is any child in Dublin below the ordinary standard of intelligence. That is simply shutting the Ministerial and the officials' eyes to things that, in their report, they profess to know. Not only are the classes excessive in size, but there is no discrimination with regard to the capacity of the pupils. Is it any wonder, when we look at the results of the primary leaving certificate examination, that we find Dublin set out as any other part of the country in respect of the intelligence displayed by the children at these examinations? Why is it that one-third, or perhaps more than one-third, of the children in Dublin who sit for the primary leaving certificate fail?

The principal of a school with four or five or six teachers, with all the forms which have to be filled up and all the responsibility for the individual examination of the children from time to time, has almost to be a kind of city manager or a mixture of a city manager, a policeman and a civil servant. At the same time, in a school of five or six, he or she has to teach for three and a half hours a day, and the result is that their week-end time is taken up, their holidays at Christmas are taken up and their holidays at Easter are taken up, doing an enormous amount of work that they get no credit for at all. The teachers generally are asked to work under almost impossible conditions here and the principal of the school, with a number of teachers in it, is given an impossible task in a supervisory or other way. When you consider how stone cold the Minister and the Department are to higher criticism, you feel it impossible to come down to criticism on the lower and minor level, although criticism at the lower and minor level is a very important one, too.

We are concerned with the restoration of the Irish language, even in the City of Dublin. I will ask any member of this House to write down these words—I will spell them out: Mhath, din, éthach, ea, ganas, shuiodh, úl, abhar, ime, linbh, thit, trua, bheig, tháine, baoch, math, tine, ceangala. Having got these down, I will ask Deputies to write the meaning of them and to write sentences in which they are included. Maybe some other time we might comment on that. But these are words taken from a book of Father O'Leary's, which is sometimes offered to teachers as texts when they look for texts by Father O'Leary.

On the question of books, it has been put to me that the cost of books to the ordinary Irish farmer to-day is bigger than the land annuities. Some of them ask, apart altogether from the cost, that something should be done to deal with the book situation. There are aspects of the book situation that deserve to be discussed.

Mr. Dillon

Innumerable.

General Mulcahy

There is a demand, with regard to the rules and regulations for national schools, that they ought to be reprinted, so that they may be got together. It is almost impossible for anybody who wants to know anything about the regulations of national schools to find out anything about them, in a reasonable way. If the book were to be fully printed it would be double its present size, with all the amendments that have been added.

Mr. Derrig

That is being done.

General Mulcahy

When I realise how stone cold the Minister and the Department are to the higher importance of education, to the real function of the Department, it seems to me to be a waste of time to be talking about minor details; but the minor details are the things that are killing the capacity of the schools to give us the kind of results for which our farmers, our industrialists and our commercial people are looking, or to give our secondary teachers and our university teachers the kind of basic material that we ought to get from our primary schools. The whole situation is in a shocking state and I am not exaggerating in any way, or being flippant in any way, when I say that instead of putting those people, who the Minister claims have a sense of historical science and are reasearch workers, to do work for the next 12 months on the social and economic consequences of the Great Famine, at a cost of £1,500, he should gather them into his Department and ask them to consider the conditions in the Department of Education, so that we may avoid the social and the economic consequences to-morrow that the conditions in the Department of Education inevitably will bring down on top of our people if it is not urgently and radically attended to.

Mr. Dillon

The Leader of the Opposition has covered a wide field and I think he made a case which the Minister will find it hard to answer, if he attempts to do so. My experience, from listening to Education Estimate debates here, is that the Minister just does not attempt to answer the points made by Deputies. I think the House should bear this in mind, that the Minister for Education has been in office for 13 years and he cannot share with anybody the responsibility for the state of education in this country. I cannot imagine that he is proud of his achievement.

The first thing I want to refer to to-day is the future of the Irish language. Last year, and the year before, I expressed the view that the battle for the redemption of the language as a living language was very nearly lost and that unless we reconsidered our position in regard to it, we might find any day that the opportunity to rescue it from final decline into a dead language had passed. I now make a last appeal to the Minister to secure the effective co-operation of a united people for the rescue of the language, in the profound conviction that, if that united support is not forthcoming very soon, the language will become no more than a political shibboleth in our time and, in the time of our children, will take its place beside Latin, Greek and Cornish as a dead language.

For several years now, we have persisted in our primary schools in the outrage of herding into classrooms crowds of infants who, for the first time in their lives, have left home and gone into strange surroundings and encountered strange people, both as companions and as preceptors. They are infants who have never heard a word of Irish in their lives. These children, experiencing the normal strain of adapting themselves to entirely new conditions and new surroundings, are according to our regulations, addressed exclusively in a language as strange to them as Ancient Greek. Only persons who have never bothered to go into an infants' class, or who have no conception of the outrage themselves, could conveivably tolerate it, but some disastrous quirk in the mind of some pestilential crank in the Department or who had influence with the Department, imposed this monstrous system upon us. Simply because the infant children cannot make themselves vocal and because they take what happens to them in life without any consciousness of outrage, this thing is allowed to continue without more vigorous protest than it has already elicited.

Surely, we are not all so old and middle aged in this House as to forget the time when we were small, when we were little children. If something went seriously wrong, provided it did not create any excitement, little children did not realise that it was wrong. No matter how great the effort, they proceeded to adapt themselves to it, sometimes to their own great detriment. Because it was new, because they have gone into this new world expecting new things, it does not occur to them that some of the new things are good while others were never anticipated or approved of by their parents and would not be imposed upon the children if the parents knew the true detail of what was happening. Hundreds and thousands of little children in this country are being exposed to the insufferable mental agony of finding themselves for the first time in school, wholly unable to understand a word that is being spoken to them and yet expected to conform to precepts given to them in a tongue they have never heard before.

Deputies coming into this House, experienced men, very often find themselves at a loss. Very often they are familiar with how to make a speech at the crossroads, how to speak to a convention at home, how to speak to a group of neighbours; but when they come here they find that there are rules of order and rules of procedure, which are awkward enough to pick up. Conceive what our feelings would be if, when we were trying to pick our way through that maze of regulations, we were told what the rules were in a language not one word of which we understood. With all our sophistication, with all our maturity, if we can throw our minds back to the first day we stood in this House, we can conceive the embarrassment and mental anguish through which we would pass. You may be trying to avoid making a fool of yourself and feeling the awkwardness of having brought home to you that you were doing something wrong; and you are asked to correct your procedure but, you are quite unable to understand what the Ceann Comhairle is saying to you or what your neighbours are trying to explain to you, as to where you have gone wrong and how you might best put yourself right.

Can anybody in this House think of a little child, going in its new clothes to school, faced not with the company of mature and reasonable beings, but surrounded by a crowd of little mischievous children like itself, who delight in finding a butt for their humour and jeer, who themselves not knowing what to do, rejoice to see some unfortunate little creature making mistakes and becoming more and more bewildered by the injunctions addressed to it in a language it does not understand. The child is overwhelmed with embarrassment and dismay and is looking forward to the play hour, when every error into which it fell, every absurdity of which it had been guilty as a result of its capacity to understand or appreciate what it was required to do, is amplified, dwelt upon and made the butt of ridicule by its playmates. Is it conceivable that 138 rational citizens would impose upon and their own children such an insane system of education?

I am no fanatic on methods of education. I have no objection to the Módh Díreach in teaching a language. It can be a very good system. If you are teaching a child Irish for an hour or two in the day, it may be very good to familiarise it with the terms by habitually employing Irish phrases in the course of instruction; but that you should impose it upon infant children, in the circumstances I describe, that they should be addressed exclusively in the Irish language and be faced with nothing in the school but Irish, seems to be a fantastic injustice crying out for rectification.

The British did something like that in the Gaeltacht, when slaughtering the Irish language. Our people revolted, not only against the outrage of their coming in here to destroy our language but against the cruelty to the little children, who were made to feel contemptible and ignorant because they were not able to answer the teacher in the language which the teacher was employing. Every element of our community, from the extreme left to the extreme right, resented that ill-treatment of our children, who were humiliated in the school which was designed to cater for them. Yet, in our day, we elect to do ourselves, to our own children the very thing that we regarded as a beastly outrage when perpetrated by the British. How long is that wickedness to go on?

The Leader of the Opposition read out here to-day an extract from the factual findings—not from the recommendations, but from the factual findings—of the Vocational Commismission. I think it is admitted that that commission had before it all that sort of evidence that could be given, and I think, despite the strictures made upon it by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, it will be agreed that the members of that commission were open-minded and impartial and, in the main, men of outstanding ability. They found as a fact that every educational evidence given before them tended to prove that the standard of education in the primary schools was shockingly low. The opinion of an education officer was read out here, and Deputies will remember that the C.E.O. of County Roscommon expressed a similar opinion, which he was afterwards asked to qualify because the national teachers were after him; but from all quarters comes this story that the children now coming out of the national schools have virtually no education at all. That is a fact that I can confirm from my personal experience. They cannot write, they cannot spell, they cannot add, and they cannot talk Irish. In my opinion, that is largely due to the fatuous attempt to teach children through the medium of Irish when the children do not know Irish and when the teachers are not competent to give instruction in Irish.

I know that the Minister will get up and say that in classes other than the infant classes no teacher is required to teach through the medium of Irish unless, on the one hand, the teachers are competent to impart that education through the medium of Irish and, on the other hand, the children are able to receive it through Irish; but the fact is that the teachers feel that there is an obligation on them to teach through the medium of Irish, even where they are not competent to do so. That is being widely attempted, and it is fundamentally wrong and is doing illimitable damage. Now, all this is happening in the Galltacht, while in the Gaeltacht you find repeatedly that the public services and other media through which the people have to do their business are manued by people who cannot speak Irish at all, and you discover to your amazement that that extraordinary result is sometimes achieved as a result of examinations held to determine the proficiency of a candidate for office in the Irish language. I shall give a case in point—Deputy Kissane probably knows it—that of the post-boy in Drumquin. There was a fellow doing the job there, who had been born and bred there, and who had spoken Irish all his life. Ultimately, the Minister decided to hold an examination for the post. The examination was in Irish, and the man from Drumquin, who was born and bred there and who spoke Irish all his life, sat for that examination, and a gentleman from East Kerry also sat for it. The result was that the man from East Kerry passed with flying colours and got the job while the man from Drumquin——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Dunquin, Deputy.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, Dunquin. The man from Dunquin, who spoke Irish all his life, lost the job, whereas the man from East Kerry, who cannot speak a word of Irish, was appointed and is going around talking to the neighbours in English. The man who was born and bred in Dunquin and who spoke Irish before he ever spoke a word of English was superseded by a man who cannot speak a word of Irish and who now has the job.

Mr. Flanagan

Probably the other man was in Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Dillon

That is just book-Irish, for the purpose of qualifying for examinations, while the real language is being grossly and shamelessly neglected. We all know—those of us who are familiar with the Gaeltacht—that the language there is steadily losing ground instead of making headway. I recently toured the Tourmakeady Gaeltacht, to meet some friends there, and the impression I got was that the old people are as fluent as ever in the language, the middle-aged people have stopped altogether using Irish, and the children have a certain amount of book-Irish which they use in school but never use outside school. Now, people will ask why is that peculiar reaction manifesting itself in the Gaeltacht. I think it is for this reason, that Irish in this country, as a result of the activities of the present Government, is becoming the hallmark of mediocrity. If you are not found to qualify for any job in the public service, you may scrap in above a better man by representing yourself as being a fluent Irish speaker. It is common knowledge in this country that time and again the most highly qualified men for public positions under the Civil Service Commission or the Local Appointments Commission have been turned down.

Mr. Derrig

I suggest, Sir, that that is not appropriate to this Vote. It is appropriate to the Vote for the Civil Service Commissioners or the Vote for the Taoiseach's Department. If the Deputy wishes to raise the matter of appointments in connection with these Votes, he can do so, but I suggest that it is not relevant on the Vote for Education.

Mr. Dillon

I understood that it could be raised on these Votes, and that it is relevant.

Mr. Derrig

It can be raised on any of these Votes, but I do not see why this matter of the appointment of public servants should be raised on my Vote. It is the Taoiseach's Department that is responsible for public appointments, and I should like, if the Deputy is raising that question, that he would give the Taoiseach an opportunity of dealing with it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I take it the Deputy refers to appointments connected with primary education.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, Sir, and secondary education, and higher education also. I am pointing out that an attitude is growing up in this country which, instead of being friendly towards and solicitous of the Irish language, is becoming hostile to it. It is coming to be regarded as the hallmark of mediocrity, in that mediocre persons seek to use it in order to get positions and preferment in the life of this country, not on the ground that they are the most highly-fitted people for the positions they seek, but on the ground that they are good enough to do the job and that they have Irish. I have always wanted to see Irish made in this country the hallmark of higher education. I have said repeatedly here, and I say again, that Irish in this country should be what French was in Russia: that any person who was not able to speak Irish in this country should be looked upon as a halfeducated person, and that any person who professed to have a complete higher education in this country would be a person who spoke Irish and English with equal fluency. Unless and until we attain to that standard in this country there is no hope of saving the Irish language. If Irish is merely to be the hallmark of a man who has come, through the pressure brought upon him, to learn Irish, that policy may have a passing success, a passing appearance of success, but in the long run the strength of feeling developed against the language will become so great and cause such a revulsion that the whole language movement will be destroyed.

I say deliberately, therefore, that in my judgment the time has come when we should realise that the whole policy of compulsory Irish in examinations in this country is wrong. Under the Constitution, Irish and English are given equal places, and I say that if Irish is not to be made disreputable in the future, the whole system of insisting that all persons seeking public appointments, and even the opportunity of education, must submit to learning not only Irish but all other subjects through the medium of Irish, should be abolished, and that any candidate at any examination for the Civil Service, the public services. the universities or anywhere else should be free to offer, as one of his compulsory subjects, Irish or English. I believe that Irish should be a compulsory subject on the programme of every primary and every secondary school in the country, but once a child has passed the leaving certificate of either the primary or secondary school, he should be absolutely free, in youth, adolescence and manhood, where edcuational tests are imposed, to tender as the language of his vernacular either Irish or English in every case and we should finally do away with this well-founded belief that Irish is the passport of every mediocrity in the country to preferment over those whose technical capacity is infinitely superior but whose linguistic facility in examinations is not so great.

At the same time, as we do that, I put it to the Minister that it is his business to look through every branch of the public service to ensure that in the Gaeltacht every public servant will be able to speak to the people in their vernacular, just as public servants in the Galltacht are required to be equipped to speak to the people there in their vernacular. Every public servant in the Gealtacht, teacher, guard, county council employee and civil servant, should be able to speak Irish, and unless able to speak Irish, should not be qualified to hold a public position in that area. It is no very great boon to confer on a public servant to inform him that his ability to speak Irish has qualified him for a post in Rosmuck, whereas his non-Irish speaking colleague has a position in Upper Merrion Street, and, therefore, those who are capable of transacting their official business through the medium of Irish and thus called upon to serve in the Gaeltacht, are entitled to special compensation by way of remuneration for the comparative disadvantage which service in those remote parts of the country entails.

I am convinced that if we do away with this loathsome servitude of compulsory Irish in public examinations, we can confidently expect the development of the right spirit in regard to the Irish language amongst the mass of our people. It is a loathsome thing to think that numbers of our people, numbers of the very best of our people, decent men who come of decent people, are obliged to make up their minds that they have to leave their own country to earn their livelihoods because there is no prospect for them here inasmuch as they do not speak Irish. Some children at a secondary school or university have a linguistic facility and can pick up a language and speak it fluently at the end of their term of education, but hundreds cannot, and there are many boys and girls in this country who are first placed in a position of considerable moral perplexity by their inability to reach matriculation standard in the Irish language and obliged to seek ecclesiastical sanction for their enrolment in Trinity College, Dublin. That difficulty having first confronted them, they may then make up their minds that, whatever academic qualifications they may acquire during their university careers, they must leave this country if they are to have any hope of reaching the higher standards of whatever activity they embark on.

That these things should be done in the name of Irish is, in my opinion, a shocking disgrace, and I, therefore, ask the Minister to put an end to the misuse of our language which is resulting, first, in the wrecking of our primary education system; secondly, in the corruption of our public services; and, thirdly, in the steady draining from our community of some of the best elements of our educated men and women, who are constrained to go abroad because their inability to speak Irish renders it impossible for them to earn their living in the public services of this country. There are those short-sighted enough to believe that the oblition of compulsion would mean the death of the language. I have never believed that. On the contrary, I am quite convinced that if the survival of the Irish language depends upon compulsion, the Irish language is dead, and we are simply playing around with a dead and corrupting body rather than with a living language into which strength and new vitality can be breathed.

I do not share the view that the Irish language depends for its survival on compulsion. I believe the future of the Irish language lies with those who love it and who are prepared to work for it, not for the money to be made out of it, not for the undeserved preferment they hope to get through it, but because they feel that indefinable, that inexplicable instinct that they want their language, that they are prepared to make sacrifices and to exert themselves to see it live and that they regard it, as it should be regarded, as a sinc qua non of the liberal education of any Irish man or woman. I make no apology for labouring this for, to me, in this hour, the whole future of the language is being determined and at this moment Irish is dying and very nearly dead; but I am convinced of this—and I do not believe there is a Deputy who, in his heart, disagrees with me—that if we could once create a situation wherein Irish was recognised by our people as the hallmark of a higher education, there would be no danger to the survival of the language at all, because then instead of having to compel people to learn it, people in every walk of life in this country would be clamouring for an opportunity to acquire that hallmark of erudition and education which would stamp them as truly educated persons in the community. If we continue on the downward slope on which we are at present moving, the language is lost.

We look almost with suspicion to-day at anyone who speaks to us in halting Irish, and our first reaction is to ask: "What does this fellow think he is going to get out of talking Irish to men when he is not so very well able to talk it?" That is the reaction of most people to-day who hear a man endeavouring to use Irish under difficulties. I put it to Deputies: if they meet a man or woman to-day trying to demonstrate to a neighbour that he or she knows some Irish and is anxious to speak it, what is the first thought that occurs to them? Is it not: "What is she out for? What is this fellow out for? What has made him go Gaelic"? Is not that the ulterior motive so indissolubly associated in the minds of the people with the Irish language? Do you imagine that, in these circumstances, the language can survive? If, on the other hand, the fact that people spoke Irish and were overhead speaking Irish on the streets conferred upon them the same social elcat that the Oxford accent used to do in the beginning of this century amongst the Castle backs and the social climbers of our community, how different would be the reaction of the masses of our people?

In England, an educated accent is a passport to many positions of preferment and opportunity because, when a man's voice is heard in England, everyone at once recognises the circumstances under which he was educated and the standard of education that he must have enjoyed in the kind of school that he has obviously come from. If we could create the situation in Ireland that a person who casually spoke Irish with the same fluency that he spoke English bore upon him the hallmark of having received such an education as would fit him for the same kind of posts that a man with the Harrow school or Winchester school accent in England was capable of filling, we would have the same desire amongst the masses of our people to acquire that legitimate and praiseworthy hallmark of distinction in our country that so many millions aspire to in Great Britain. That is what Irish should be in this country, the hallmark of a superior education, which any person could tender as his vernacular in any public examination, if he chose to do so, but which every person would scorn to seek as a medium of undeserved advantage over his technical superior in the particular walk of life where he sought preferment.

I want to be clear on this, that I want to see Irish a compulsory subject in our national schools and in our secondary schools. I want to see the obligation to offer Irish as a compulsory subject abolished in our matriculation examinations, Civil Service examinations and in all other examinations to which adolescents and mature men and women must submit themselves in this country, and substitute therefor the right of every citizen in this State under the Constitution to offer as his vernacular Irish or English, and so let everybody stand on an equal footing. Incidental to that, I want the fraud of giving a 10 per cent. bonus for answering through the medium of Irish at intermediate examinations abolished. It was a loathsome fraud the first day it was instituted. It is a loathsome fraud to-day, and it ought to be abolished. I ask that the same standard of marking in examinations, whether the questions be answered through the medium of Irish or English, be established for all time and not as it is at present with the marks for students answering through English being appreciably lower than the marks for those answering through the medium of Irish.

The Leader of the Opposition read out some extracts from publications of the Gúm. I want to make further reference to these publications. I recently met a grown man who was a candidate at the final examination of the Incorporated Law Society for solicitors' apprentices in Irish. One of the prescribed books published by the Gúm rejoiced in the name of An Múil. This is a collection of short stories the principal of which deals with a female mule. This is the case of a man of 21 years of age who had to apply his mind to the following story which is a publication from the Gúm. A gentleman purchases a female mule, and on his return from the fair where he had made the purchase he came upon two bands of fairies playing camogie. There was then set out at length the name of each female fairy on each of the camogie teams. The camogie game was described at great length, with the female mule making observations during its progress. At the conclusion of the game the names of all the female fairies playing the comgie were again reproduced. The observations made in the course of the journey from the scene of the encounter back to the home of the gentleman with the female mule were described in some detail. Outside of bedlam was there ever such fantastic nonsense? Can you conceive the feelings of a man trying to prepare himself for a final examination under the Incorporated Law Society when he is required to burn the midnight oil to read about a mule?

Mr. Derrig

Am I responsible for the fact that he had to study this book? I should think that the Incorporated Law Society is the body responsible.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister is responsible for the publication in the book.

Mr. Derrig

We have published hundreds of books, but I am not responsible for the books which the Incorporated Law Society may prescribe for its examination. The Deputy is only wasting the time of the House.

Mr. Dillon

You are responsible for the mule. The Minister should get the book and read it, and tell this House, or anybody else, were the contents of it worth printing to begin with, worth binding to go on with and, finally, worth foisting on the public? Surely there ought to be some standard of excellence for books with the Government imprint on them. I recognise that picture books and children's books must be published, but there ought to be some standard of excellence, some limit to the extent to which ages can be covered with print in setting out at length the Christian and surnames of every female fairy in two teams of camogie players. I know that Deputies will find it hard to believe that, but I assure them that it is true.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister did not prescribe the book for that examination.

Mr. Dillon

No, but he is responsible for the printing of a book with the names of two teams of fairies.

Mr. Derrig

For all I know, the book may be for infants.

Mr. Dillon

What advantage is going to accure to anybody from reading the names of 15 female fairies engaged in playing camogie? This is the kind of thing that makes one despair so far as the revival of Irish is concerned.

Mr. O'Donnell

A camogie team consists of 12 players.

Mr. Dillon

It may be Rugby football for all I know. The Deputy should buy the book. If he does, I think he will agree that this publication reflects no credit on the discrimination of the readers for the Gúm. I take it that the various estimates for which the Minister is responsible are being discussed together.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Yes.

Mr. Dillon

Repeatedly, it has been urged in this House that the school leaving age should be raised. I do not want to make unreasonable requestes and I recognise the difficulties which would be involved in matters of expense, school accommodation and training of teachers if the school leaving age were raised all over the country. But I want to ask the Minister to consider, in an experimental period, raising the school-leaving age, say, in the areas of Dublin City, and in the areas of the cities of Cork, Limerick and Waterford. If it would be impossible, with the resources at our disposal now to provide teachers sufficient to give the ordinary academic course to pupils in their 15th and 16th years, would it not be an advantageous thing if the girls who are constrained to attend school compulsorily for an additional two years were given two years' training in elementary domestic economy? Hundreds of those girls in Dublin and the cities will be going into industrial employment of one kind or another and will ultimately marry. Some of them may have to remain spinsters all their lives and run their own homes to the best of their ability. Whether they are ultimately destined to be spinsters or married women, a knowledge of elementary domestic economy would be of incalculable value to them and would materially help in solving some of the worst social problems in this city and every other city.

Although one must have every sympathy with the poor, we are bound to confess that the very slender resources available to the poor are not utilised to the best advantage by hundreds of poor families. That is not for want of will but rather for want of knowledge as to how best to spread out the exiguous incomes they have to administer. That fault in housekeeping is not the exclusive prerogative of the poor, because there is many a middle-class family in which the woman of the house is so indifferent a housekeeper as to create serious embarrassments for the wage-earner. It would not, I think, be unreasonable if the Minister were to say that, in Dublin at any rate, and possibly in other cities, he would require girls to attend school for two extra years, these two years to be employed in giving them, at least for part of the time, an education in elementary domestic economy which would fit them to cook and keep a house in a reasonably efficient way. If we did that, we might also go to the secondary schools and commend those secondary schools which are already giving domestic economy instruction to their senior pupils and exhort, or compel, such schools as do not do so to provide instruction of that character. I should do that in all the secondary schools and in the primary schools of the urban areas, to begin with, with a view to extending it to the rural areas when facilities would become available.

The last two matters to which I wish to refer are connected with the Institute of Higher Studies and the universities. I do not know how the Institute of Higher Studies is going on. I know that some of their publications have been very savagely criticised as being unworthy of the Institute, but I am not qualified to judge of that. I want to repeat, in the most emphatic way, the protest I made here before against the regulations made by the board of that Institute and approved by the Minister for Education. In the Institute of Higher Studies, there are a number of senior professors, a director of the Celtic division and a director of the mathematical division. A regulation has been made whereunder any lecturer or a junior member of the staff of the Institute is absolutely prohibited from publishing any piece of original research work which has not been submitted to and approved by the Minister.

I say that any such regulation is quite contrary to all liberal and informed opinion and is calculated to make the position of young scholars in that Institute utterly incompatible with the personal dignity of men who are giving their lives to learning. It would be reasonable, if a man were a member of the staff of the Institute, to place an obligation on him to afford a director of the Institute a first claim on any work which such junior lecturer desired to have published, thus affording the director an opportunity of publishing the work in the journal of the Institute if he wished to do so. But if the director of the Institute rejects work on the ground that it is not suitable to the Institute or that it is not, in his judgment, sufficiently meritorious for incorporation in the Journal of the Institute, it should be open to that scholar to negotiate with any other learned journal with a view to having it published. It is true that, if an extraordinary situation developed whereunder a junior scholar of the Institute might prepare masses of unworthy work and discover learned journals prepared to publish unworthy work, the director might have to consider dispensing with the services of such a lecturer and excluding him from the Institute, but such a combination of events, in which a scholar's work would be uniformly bad and learned journals could be found to publish bad work, is virtually unthinkable.

Therefore, I say that the regulation is indefensible on any ground, and is designed to place in the hands of the director of the Institute a strangle-hold on his junior colleagues which no scholar should submit to, and no scholar should claim the right to exercise. It is quite legitimate, as I pointed out before, for a young scholar to differ from the director of the Irish division of the Institute in his opinion that there are two St. Patrick's. It is quite legitimate for a young scholar to maintain the thesis that the director is entirely wrong in that conclusion, that there was only one St. Patrick, and that that is capable of scientific, as it is of traditional proof. As the regulation stands at present, it would be quite competent for the director to prohibit the junior member of the staff from publishing, in his own journal, or anywhere else, a thesis designed to refute the theory put forward by the director himself. I am not alleging that anything improper has been done under this regulation to date. I do not know, but I say that the power to do wrong is there. The principle of limiting scholarship is admitted, and that that principle should be assoated with our Institute of Higher Studies is a public scandal which should be ended. I challenge the Minister to justify his approval of this interpretation of the regulations which were circulated by the director of the Institute and submitted to him for his approval at an early stage of the Institute's history. Is it the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Education who is responsible for university grants?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister for Finance.

Mr. Dillon

And that matter would be more appropriately raised on the Vote for the Department of Finance than on the Vote for the Department of Education?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Yes.

Mr. Dillon

It is a golden rule, not often observed in this House, to sit down when you have said all you have got to say. I shall not sit down without recapitulating the case I made— because I know the storm of misrepresentation which will inevitably assail me and for which I do not give a "thraneen"—in regard to compulsory Irish. I want to recapitulate precisely the things for which I stand iu regard to compulsory Irish. I want Irish to become the vernacular of all educated elements in this country. To that end, I want Irish taught in every primary school to every pupil, and in every secondary school to every pupil. I want every citizen of this State, when seeking higher or university education, to be free to do so without being constrained to present Irish as a qualifying subject. I want that in relation to the National University and every other university in the State.

I want every public servant to be free to give of his best in the technical sphere in which he is employed, without any ancillary test as to his capacity to speak the Irish language when, under the Constitution, the Irish and the English languages are declared to be of equal standing in the public life of this country. I want our young people who are growing up, and who find themselves unable to secure during their school years a mastery of the language, to feel free not only to get their education in the National University but also to have some prospect of advancement, some opportunity, some prospect of reaching the top of the tree in whatever service they engage in their own country and not, as at present, be driven abroad because there are no prospects for anybody who is not prepared to pretend at least to proficiency in book Irish. I want to see in the Gaeltacht every public servant equipped to transact business through the medium of Irish and, in order to enable that to be done, I want an additional reward to be vouchsafed to those who are prepared to live in the comparatively restricted circumstances that life in the Gaeltacht involves.

I am convinced that unless we definitely turn our backs upon the detestable slavery which compulsory Irish has become in this country and opt instead for the still practical work of making Irish the hallmark of higher education in this country, the language, now nearly dead, will certainly die. I am convinced that, precarious as is the condition of the language after 13 years of the Minister's administration, we may still reasonably hope to rescue it if we can marshal the goodwill of all sections of our community. With compulsion, every Deputy in this House knows that there is a silent mounting opposition growing against the language. Abolish compulsion and every Deputy in this House knows that, from the extreme right to the extreme left, we shall find elements in every section of our community prepared to work hand in hand for the welfare of the language. It falls to us in this present hour to make the choice. If we choose wrongly, our grandchildren will know Irish only as a dead language. If we choose aright, then Irish will join the classical languages of the Continent of Europe as a hallmark of superior education, as a dynamic and living language which will beget its own literature and adapt itself to the changing world. That is what I want to see. That is what everybody in this country and outside it, who loves our language, wants to see. It is a source of deep anguish to think that that opportunity should be lost and that we, whose responsibility it is to save the language in this critical hour, should fail. I know that if the Taoiseach and the present Minister for Education choose to give a lead along the right lines, the situation might yet be saved, but I have very little hope that they will see the light.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

The decision of the Minister and the Taoiseach on the claim put forward recently by a delegation from the Irish National Teachers' Organisation has, so far as my information goes, caused consternation amonst the teachers because they had reason to believe that, as State servants, their claim would be adjusted on lines similar to those that were applied so far as the Civil Service and the Gárda were concerned. To get the proper background to the claim put forward by the teachers in relation to the other services, it is necessary to recall that in 1920, a permanent scale of salaries was introduced for the teachers.

An Ceann Comhairle

Might I intervene for a few moments? Money for teachers' salaries comes under Vote 46. I am informed, however, that the matter has been raised on this Vote, so that Deputy Martin O'Sullivan may continue. The same item may not be discussed on more than one Vote.

Mr. Derrig

Are we not taking all the Votes together?

An Ceann Comhairle

If salaries are discussed on this Vote they cannot be discussed on the next.

Mr. Butler

Does that apply generally or only to individual Deputies?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is of general application.

Mr. Butler

If a Deputy does not get an opportunity of speaking in this discussion can he not speak on the next Vote?

An Ceann Comhairle

As it is obvious that Vote 45 will not be concluded to-day, Deputies will have opportunities of intervening next week.

Mr. Kissane

Deputy Dillon covered every aspect of education when speaking just now.

An Ceann Comhairle

Of course, the Minister also covered the whole gamut in his opening speech.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

In 1920, what was presumed to be a permanent scale of salaries was introduced so far as primary teachers were concerned. In the same year an arrangement was made with the Civil Service which permitted of a salary and bonus arrangement and, so far as the Guards were concerned, in 1924 an arrangement was made with them permitting of certain adjustments on rises and falls in the cost of living. So far as civil servants or the Guards are concerned, they had apparently no grievance up to 1940, because the Government had kept faith with them up to that stage, but in January, 1940, faith was broken by the stabilisation of the bonus and, as we are aware, the general stabilisation or pegging down of wages did not take place until May, 1941.

It was clear, therefore, that the civil servants and the Guards suffered a very definite loss between the period from January, 1940, to May, 1941, and it was as a measure of restitution for that loss that an adjustment has been made, as from January of this year, with respect both to the civil servants and the Guards. But between the period 1920-1934, what, as I have indicated, was presumed to be a permanent scale of salaries was broken on no fewer than seven occasions by the Government in so far as the primary teachers were concerned. A final scale was issued in association with the pensions scheme of 1934. Therefore, if Guards and civil servants lost between January, 1938, and May, 1941, the teachers have been losing heavily from 1920 to 1934 to the extent, in fact, of not less than 19 per cent. of their salaries. In 1938, as a result of pressure from the teachers, because of their economic circumstances, the Government conceded a 5 per cent. expansion of their salaries. In a memorandum issued on that occasion, the grant was deemed to be appropriate to existing conditions, and stated that the whole question would be subject to review later in the light of the economic and financial conditions of the State. In 1938, when that 5 per cent. was granted, the cost of living had risen by 22 points as between 1934, when the last stabilisation of salaries was reached and 1938 so far as the teachers and others were concerned. It was presumed, therefore, that the 5 per cent. addition in 1938 was to meet the increase in the cost of living, between 1934 and 1938 of 22 points.

Actually, on the basis of the Civil Service bonus, the ordinary civil servant would have an increase of 10 per cent. That is the kernel of the recent claim of the teachers for an increase in present rates. In 1938 they were quite openly hitched in that form to the cost-of-living bonus. The memorandum issued in connection with the award was to the effect that it was appropriate to the existing conditions, and would be subject to review at a later date. Between the date of the last award in 1938 and 1941, when wages and salaries were stabilished or pegged down, there was a further increase of 57 points, which on the basis of the 5 per cent. allocation to the teachers in 1938, would render to them a furthere increase of 13 per cent. It was on the basis of that further increase that the recent claim was made. It would appear as if the overriding consideration in the turning down of that claim was the operation of the Emergency Powers Act. But, if I am correctly informed, only within the last week employees in Cork City of Córas Iompair Éireann received an increase of 10/- a week in their basic wages, and, apparently, in that case the special circumstances of the Emergency Powers Act did not hamper the decision. I suggest that the claim put forward by the teachers is unanswerable, and that it can be allowed without regard in any way to the Emergency Powers Act. Because of that I am disappointed—and I need hardly say that the teachers, as the people immediately concerned, are disappointed—that a review of the decision taken in 1938 was not carried out without reference to the Emergency Powers Act.

That may be regarded as the paramount argument in the immediate claim for an increase by the teachers. It is a claim that can be well sustained on its merits. But the Minister and the House should look at the wider and more fundamental issue involved, that once and for all it should be possible to introduce a scale of salaries for teachers that would be commensurate with their work, and the important part they play in the life of the nation, so as to ensure that they will be treated with the respect to which they are entitled.

Is that the position to-day? I am sorry to say that the very reverse is the case. Deputy Mulcahy referred earlier to certain financial difficulties of teachers. Having listened closely, I think I heard the Deputy making a statement about teachers being in the hands of certain individuals. The reference might be applied to teachers as a whole. I will go further and say what possibly might put the position in its correct perspective, that is, that while we have approximately 1,200 teachers in Dublin, no fewer than 200 of them are, I regret to say, in the hands of moneylenders in the city. I go further and say that a number of teachers, who in recent years entered into certain commitments for the purchase of houses have had to dispose of their interest in their homes recently in order to pay their debts. I am sorry to say that these particulars can be verified.

Surely, that is an appalling position—appalling when we consider that the children in this State are dependent for their education and for moral foundation on a profession reduced to such circumstances? How could it be otherwise when the average all-over salary of a teacher does not exceed £4 10s. a week? In that respect the Minister and the officials of the Department must have had it brought home to them only too forcibly in recent years that parents, as the teaching profession no longer holds any allurement for their children, are diverting them, particularly the boys, into professions and occupations which will ensure better results and better prospects.

In that respect may I say that it is a rather sad commentary on the position when we find a teacher, who always prided himself on the fact that he gave at least one member of his family, and very often more than one, to carry on his own work, perhaps in his own school, because of what he sees around him at the present time in his own personal treatment, as well as his salary, deciding that no longer should any of his children go into the teaching profession. Thus we have a very sad break with a tradition which had pride and distinction behind it. I think I am correct in saying that the position, so far as teachers generally are concerned, is that they will no longer allow their children to become members of the profession, for which they themselves were trained. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again on Wednesday next.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 2nd May.