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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 May 1945

Vol. 97 No. 1

Financial Resolutions. - Resolution No. 1—Income-Tax and Surtax.

I move:—

(1) That income-tax shall be charged for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1945, at the rate of seven shillings and sixpence in the pound.

(2) That surtax (other than excess surtax) for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1945, shall be charged in respect of the income of any individual the total of which from all sources exceeds one thousand five hundred pounds and shall be so charged at the same rates as those at which it is charged for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1944.

(3) That where the total income, within the meaning of Section 5 of the Finance Act, 1941 (No. 14 of 1941), of any individual for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1945, exceeds one thousand five hundred pounds and includes any such profits as are mentioned in the said Section 5, an additional duty of surtax (in this Resolution referred to as an excess surtax) shall be charged for the said year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1945, at the rate of seven shillings and sixpence in the pound in respect of so much of the said income as is made chargeable therewith by sub-section (1) of the said Section 5 as modified and applied by the subsequent paragraphs of this Resolution.

(4) That the several statutory and other provisions which were in force on the 5th day of April, 1945, in relation to income-tax and surtax (including excess surtax) shall have effect in relation to the income-tax and surtax (including excess surtax) to be charged as aforesaid for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1945.

(5) That in the application (by virtue of the next preceding paragraph of this Resolution) of Part II of the Finance Act, 1941 (No. 14 of 1941), to the excess surtax to be charged as aforesaid for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1945, the said Part II shall have effect with and subject to the following modifications, that is to say:—

(a) the expression "the 6th day of April, 1945," shall be substituted for the expression "the 6th day of April, 1941," wherever that expression occurs in the said Part II;

(b) in paragraph (b) of sub-section (3) of Section 7 of the said Act, the expression "the 5th day of April, 1946," shall be substituted for the expression "the 5th day of April, 1942," and the word "nine" shall be substituted for the word "five" and the expression "the 5th day of April, 1945," shall be substituted for the expression "the 5th day of April, 1941".

(6) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Is it at this stage that the general discussion is to take place?

There may be a short statement.

I am not confining myself to a short statement. I have rights which I have had for many years past.

Short is a relative term.

A very relative term. I do not think I will be anything like quarter as long as the Minister. This year, the Minister is turning to provision for the Shannon airport and apparently the same idea is being pursued. There was a certain amount of ridicule here last year in finding that our hopes were based entirely on tourist development. One wondered if the tourists were to come here to be transported over a derelict transport concern, to look at the ravages of poverty and disease, and to take a side glance at the prisons where, according to the Minister for Justice, the number of occupants leaves us in the position of stabilising crime at twice what it was before the war. Possibly the Minister will tell us what advantage financially this country is going to get from the expenditure of £1,000,000 upon the Shannon airport and the concreting of runways around Dublin at a cost of something approaching another £400,000?

After that, as far as this Budget is concerned, the next relief that is granted is in relation to matches. One firm is to get remission of the duty on matches and the promise to the consumer is, not matches at a cheaper rate but matches in more reasonable quantities at the same rate. The only other relief that is proposed for the hard-pressed community is that the transport concern, which was set up under such magnificent auspices here recently and with such laudatory comments as to its possibilities in the future, is to be relieved from the impact of corporation profits duty and excess corporation profits duty, if it should ever earn enough to get inside that class.

I think the only hope that is contained in the Budget is the Minister's view that the situation has now reached a point when we may begin to think of the demobilisation of the Army without interfering with national security. The Minister will find that, as usual, his time lag in the appreciation of that point of view is somewhere in the neighbourhood of one year to two years behind that of other people. He also tells us, in a flight of great imagination, that plans are being formed which it is hoped will result in turf being produced for this community which will be a satisfactory fuel and will be produced for an economic price. It has taken five years to bring the Minister even to promise that plans are being formed which it is hoped will have that result. It is no wonder, when he looks back upon the hardship that has been put upon the community by unsatisfactory fuel at a shocking price, that he should have moved very hastily away from that, without giving any idea as to why these hopes are better formed than the realisation of hopes has been in the past. Outside those things, the Minister neither gives us the promise of relief immediately in this Budget nor any hope of relief in the early future.

Certain people, of course, are going to be kept well in a favoured position. The upward trend of profits is considered so certain that the Minister budgets for a big increase in his revenue arising from these profits. He states what he thinks of Irish industry and of the amount of money there is in it. Quite recently, in the Seanad, when this matter was discussed, the question was put to the Minister as to whether he believed that there were millions of pounds held and stored in reserve by Irish industrialists and he replied that not merely did he believe it but he knew it, and he hopes it will continue for the next year. He will gain a little bit of extra revenue from this upward trend of profits which, he presumes, is going to continue during the year.

Beyond that, the Minister has given us as a new weapon this year figures which really show the difficult position in this country in a better way than it has ever been known. On page 35 he goes into calculations of national income and shows the rise from £150,000,000 in 1938 to £250,000,000 in 1944. Then he says that, of course, "it should suffice to say that the increase in national income is purely a monetary phenomenon;" so at least we have accepted now what has been said often in this year and has been as often denied from Government Benches. The Minister for Supplies and his colleagues will tell us we can still get 20/- for the £. He accepts that still, and you can still get two sixpences out of a shilling. The Budget statement shows that we have now £250,000,000, so to speak, of national income. At least, it is put under the heading of "pounds". In the year 1938, it was £150,000,000, and now it has jumped to £250,000,000, and if any man were to delude himself by thinking that because he has £5 in his pocket, and thinking in the terminology of half-sovereigns, that he now has £10, his reasoning would be something like that of the Minister for Finance now, but if he has to purchase goods and pay for them, he will very soon know what is the purchasing power of that money. However, that is one side of the question.

The Minister says that the increase in the cost of living is about 70 per cent., while the increases given in certain directions on salaries is 60 per cent., and he also points out that there has been a decrease in the consumption of goods, other than foodstuffs. He also says that what the financiers call the dead-weight debt of this country is somewhere in the neighbourhood of £100,000,000. So, here we are. The community, so to speak, has been put on half-pay since the war started, despite the rise in the prices of various commodities, and yet the Minister for Finance solaces himself this year as, indeed, he did last year, by saying that, judging by the pressure to which the Minister for Finance is subjected from many quarters to reduce taxation, even though the shoe pinches in more than one place, so far it has been without causing actual lameness. Last year I asked how far the shoe pinched without causing loss to the community, and I asked, particularly, what the stabilisation of the cost-of-living bonus of the civil servants in 1940 would mean, and I was told that it would mean about £1,000,000 a year. In other words, that is the loot that has been gathered in from the civil servants by reason of the way in which the cost of living has been allowed to grow without any corresponding increase to compensate these people. Let us remember how that has been allowed to occur. Many years ago the Taoiseach addressed the civil servants and told them:—

"In my opinion, it would be a bad thing for Labour to agree to get rid of the sliding scale. I am as certain as I am standing here that world prices are going to go up and that the cost of living will go up, and when prices do go up it is a great boon to civil servants to know that salaries will go up to meet the cost of living".

In respect of that class of the community, the Secretary of the Department of Finance, in 1931, said:—

"Civil servants have made an outstanding contribution to national economy. The cumulative saving thereby effected in Civil Service pay since 1922 is nearly £2,000,000. No other section of the community has so substantially contributed to national economy".

That saving of £2,000,000, of course, was effected by reason of the fact that, while the cost-of-living bonus went down, or was stabilised, the cost of living went up, and that to a certain extent their emoluments were so fixed as to enable them to keep pace with the cost of living as it increased or decreased. The Taoiseach gave them the promise, having asked them to hang on to the cost-of-living figure, that their salaries would go up according as the cost-of-living figure went up, and that it would be a great boon to have their salaries so related to the cost-of-living figure. Then we had the stabilisation of the cost-of-living bonus, bringing in a saving of £1,000,000 a year. Recently, however, we had the case of a deputation to the Taoiseach from the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, asking for an increase in their remuneration as a result of the increased cost of living, and they were told by the Taoiseach that they could not get any increase because the teachers' remuneration was not formally or directly governed by the cost-of-living figure. It is a pity that it was not because, if so, they would have been told by the Taoiseach that it would have been a great boon to them; but here, when they recently went to the Government, they were told that their salaries were not governed formally or directly by the cost-of-living figure and that, therefore, there could be no cost-of-living bonus; whereas the civil servants were told that they would be deprived of an increase in the bonus because of the emergency. I wanted to raise the question to-day of the national teachers as an index of the hardships inflicted on the middle classes of this community and the workers in this country—those who have to depend on their wages at the end of the week for services every day and who have had their wages or salaries controlled by the standstill Order. Possibly, it will be a satisfaction to the civil servants, the national teachers, and so on, to know that some of the millions of pounds that have been raked in from them have been given to the development of industry in this country and that the Minister hopes that the upward trend in industry will continue so that he will be able to get a little extra in revenue. Then, at the end of his Budget Statement, the Minister indicates that, with the usual time-lag, he has now come to the conclusion that various movements with regard to international trade may be of value to this country; and that certain committees or commissions are sitting dealing with these matters which may be of interest and have relevance to the needs of our community here.

He has told us that we must balance our imports, the imports we require, by exports on an efficient and competitive basis. It is a pity the Budget does not contain some indication of what the Minister has done to see that whatever goods we have to export will be allowed to enter the places which require them. One sees around the world arrangements being entered into with Great Britain on a five, six and eight years' basis for the provision to Great Britain of the particular foodstuffs in which we are competitive. We have yet to learn that any approach has been made to Great Britain with regard to this matter.

People recently have been writing to the newspapers to know what is our situation with regard to the holding of moneys other than sterling. If we require goods from America, have we any store of dollars for the purpose? Apparently the Minister for Supplies, round about the new year, began to appreciate that the old conditions under which sterling was freely exchangeable into dollars no longer hold and are not likely to hold in the future, but have any steps been taken to find out what amount of our exports can be diverted, or must be diverted, to countries outside the sterling areas and what are our resources in the way of holdings of these other currencies for the purpose of purchase? Can we send exports to these countries to get the necessary currency and, if not, what are we going to do?

During the war, we have worked on a policy of piling up assets of a sterling type in England. Again, about the new year, the realisation hit members of the Government that it was possible that we would not be able to cash in on these resources at once and might not be able to cash in on them for many years, and apparently now there is a realisation that we may have to take whatever goods England likes to send us. There is also a realisation that the goods we require are what are called capital goods and that we may be fobbed off with ordinary consumer goods. Finally, there is dawning on the Government the realisation that for any pound we have packed away abroad in sterling assets we may hereafter be fobbed off with a payment of about 10/-. Are we, notwithstanding that, going to continue a policy of piling up these credits abroad without knowing whether they are to be frozen, for how long they are to be frozen and when they will eventually be liquidated and in what manner?

So far as the internal situation is concerned, the Minister has quoted Sir William Beveridge. He has contented himself, in the main, with referring to his proposals with regard to social security, but surely the Minister must know that Sir William Beveridge's plan is in two: he talks of the conditions required for a decent community in the future in the way of social standards, standards of living, but he also has projected for what is called full employment. The two plans are conjoint. So far as I understand his plan, he has no belief whatever that the amenities of social life which he wants to give to the people of England can be obtained unless there is something in the way of full employment. He has his plans for full employment and it was only as late as the year 1939 that there was any scientific approach to the problem of employment and unemployment and it was generally appreciated by most of the decent countries all over the world that there could only be full employment, or something approaching full employment, if there was effective demand, that if there is a deficiency in demand, it leads to unemployment.

One again would have expected to feel that there was some realisation of that in the Minister's mind and that he would have told us, even though it was something projected in the future, what were his plans for increasing production in this country. We have had in relation to this tot of £52,000,000 with which we are being charged nationally, some reference to moneys to the extent of £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 which are called aids to development —most of them in connection with housing and some others in connection with roads; but we have not heard of moneys being provided or of plans being made directly affecting production, and particularly agricultural production. The Minister knows that without an increase in national income, in real national income, it will not be possible to have any of the benefits which neighbouring countries propose to give their citizens.

We know that, lying as close as we do to these countries, there will be a mass invitation to our people to go over there. We have seen from speeches made in England since the recent Budget there that one of the matters about which they are concerned is that they have not available a sufficiently large labour supply, and I suppose that any man would at least come to this conclusion, that if they have not a big enough labour supply and if we have more than we can occupy at decent wages, there will be started again the outflow of emigration which has always been bewailed in this country.

Notwithstanding all that, the Minister presents us with this Budget. He tells us of the £100,000,000 which we have piled up more or less as deadweight debt, but he does not tell us that he intends to spend another £100,000,000 which we would like to hear was to be spent so long as it was devoted to productive purposes and so long as it was possible to say there would be some return. All we get are some trifling reliefs in respect of the box of matches and in relation to Córas Iompair Éireann in connection with something which may never arise.

The Minister in this Budget has failed, as he failed in every Budget since he took over, and it is lamentable that he leaves this country now merely with the realisation that under a series of controls, finance, economy, development, he and his colleagues have been responsible for bringing us to the condition where actual income has declined. It was declining before the war started in relation to the cost of living and has declined seriously since then and the Minister does not show us that there is any means whatever present to his mind for reversing that position.

The Minister, in his Budget statement last year, gave it as his opinion that taxation had reached saturation point. Yet this year we have still further increases. How does the Minister reconcile these two positions and in what way does he hold that the taxable capacity of the people, the income of the vast majority of taxpayers, has increased sufficiently to warrant the further increase this year? We had all hoped that, at the very least, taxation would be stabilised, or kept at a steady level, but we are faced instead with increases again this year. I wonder when are matters to be levelled out. Now that the end of the hostilities in Europe is in sight, the Government should exercise the most rigid economy in relation to all expenditure and should keep down all needless expenditure, because we shall be facing a very difficult period in the next five years.

The Minister mentioned the farmers and said that farmers as a class have got off lightly. He took very good care not to mention the increased costs which farmers have to bear—increased costs in respect of fertilisers, labour, fuel, machinery and machinery repairs, not to mention the stab in the back they got about this time last year from the Minister for Supplies in the cutting of the price of wool by one-third. The Minister on many occasions has tried to convince the House and the country that farmers are a very well-to-do class and what often struck me is why, if they are so well-to-do, if farming is such a profitable occupation, the Minister has not left his comfortable seat and taken up farming as a living. Perhaps he may do so in the near future.

He has a better target than that in mind.

We on these benches have made a few efforts, in response to his repeated calls, to show the Minister ways in which expenditure could be cut down, but each time we have made an honest effort to suggest ways in which it could be clipped, we have been met with nothing but opposition and ridicule from the Government Benches. I cannot see the use of making any further suggestions.

The Minister is faced with one or other of two situations. He sheds tears occasionally because he has to increase taxation, and, at the same time, admits failure to cut it down. There is only one other way in which to do it, that is, to increase the remuneration of those who are the principal taxpayers who, I maintain, are the farmers. They are the only producers in the country and all taxation in the final analysis must come from them.

As regards emigration, the Minister admitted that we here are in a different position from the country across the water. He admitted that, as compared with England, a far smaller number of our people between, say, the ages of 16 to 18 are at work here. That is nothing new. It is due to the fact that our young people are leaving this country and going across the water. No genuine attempt has ever been made to stop emigration. As the last speaker said, if the Government advocated the spending of £100,000,000 on production, this Party and, I suppose, every other Party in the House would welcome it. It is the only way in which we can ever succeed in keeping our young manhood and young womanhood from going to America or to England. I imagine that, if the ports were open in the morning, there would not be enough ships to accommodate all who would leave our shores. The only way to tackle that problem is to have big sums of money put into production. If that were done, it would help to keep our young people at home. A proposal for expenditure of that kind would get the backing of every member of the House. We have been enjoying self-government now for a good many years. It was hoped that one of the first things we would do when we got our freedom was to make an effort to stop emigration, or at least ease it off. No genuine effort seems to have been made in that direction, and hence I say the Government have clearly failed to stem this tide of emigration.

The Minister treated us to a lengthy exposition of his views on the national financial position. After hearing his views on that matter, I think we can describe the Minister's Budget as a standstill Budget, standstill not merely because of the fact that it imposes no new taxation of a considerable character, but a standstill Budget in ideas as well. So far as his Budget speech is concerned, the Minister, apparently, has not a single new idea with which to approach the future, or to apply to the very serious problems which are likely to arise in the future. The Minister for Industry and Commerce recently delivered a speech to the Cork Chamber of Commerce. It was one of those ambitious speeches which the Minister makes from time to time to unquestioning audiences; one in which the Minister painted a picture of an Utopia on which his colleague, the Minister for Finance, poured ridicule to-day. The Minister for Industry and Commerce talked about the desirability of full employment. He gave the impression that it was the Government's policy to aim at the implementation of a policy of full employment. One would imagine that the introduction of the budget was an occasion which would be availed of by the Minister for Finance to indicate the precise manner in which the Government's policy of full employment was to be given effect. I have searched through the 43 pages of the Budget statement of the Minister for Finance, and I cannot find a single sentence which makes any reference whatever to the Government's intention to promote a policy of full employment. The Government's only policy appears to be to promote full employment for the Irish in Great Britain. That is where we are implementing our policy of full employment—by failing to provide employment for our people at home. We are doing that by the issue of permits to those of our people who have in Britain the employment which they were once promised here by this Government. When the Minister for Industry and Commerce goes to Cork, or elsewhere, to indicate the Government's policy of a full employment scheme he, at least, ought to make sure that his colleague, the Minister for Finance, will be prepared to indicate, in a subsequent Budget statement, the manner in which a full employment policy will be given effect to.

This Budget is not merely a standstill Budget from the point of view of taxation and ideas, but it is pretty liberally seasoned with the mentality that this country has got to stay as it is. The Minister for Finance has told us that the social services are costing approximately £9,600,000. When one reads the Minister's statement carefully one sees that the Minister's approach to that fact, and to the social services generally, is with the mentality that we cannot spend any more money on social services. The Minister must know, of course, that it is necessary for us to spend £9,600,000 on social services because of the large amount of unemployment which exists here, because of the high prices which prevail here and because of the Government's low-wage policy. That sum of £9,600,000 is required largely because of the fact that there is a considerable stratum of our people unemployed, that there is a considerable stratum of poverty throughout the country, and because of the fact that it is necessary for us to spend that sum in order to try to apply some salve to the economic abscesses which are permitted to grow unchecked in this country. One would imagine that if the Government lament the fact that the social services are costing so much, an effort would be made to avoid that expenditure, or, at least, such portions of that sum as it is now necessary to apply for the relief of poverty, by providing work and decent wages for those who are not able to get work or decent wages to-day.

I think that everyone who is concerned with the well-being of this country and with the standard of life here, will acknowledge at once that there is no effective substitute for employment. The provision of employment means the creation of wealth. A nation can only live on what it produces. There is nothing else on which it can live. If we are going to create a situation here in which we can produce an abundance of wealth which will sustain our people on a better standard of living than that which obtains to-day, then we can only do that by developing the nation's resources to the fullest, and by implementing a policy of full employment for all. I gathered, listening to the Minister's speech, that he seemed to take considerable satisfaction in saying that certain sums would be spent on the provision of employment this year. In the main, the same sums were spent on the provision of employment last year, but notwithstanding the expenditure on employment last year, and of similar expenditure on the provision of employment this year, we were not able last year, and I suggest that we will not be able this year, to absorb all the persons seeking employment here.

Every week last year, the employment exchanges registered the fact that there were 70,000 people, odd, unemployed and we were, apparently, satisfied with a condition of national economy in which 70,000 persons remained unemployed for 52 weeks of the year. That number would have been very much larger were it not that, during a substantial portion of the year, we were issuing permits to others who would normally be employed here to go to Britain for work they could not get at home. Therefore, we have got this position: we have unemployment provision in this Budget which is of an utterly inadequate character, unemployment provision which still leaves a hard core of 70,000 unemployed people at the labour exchanges each week and we are, apparently, satisfied, if the Minister's speech represents Government policy, that that situation should continue and that 70,000 unemployed persons, able and willing to work in an undeveloped country, should be denied an opportunity of working in their own land. That is the position to-day.

We are told by the Minister that there is to be early and orderly demobilisation from the Army. We may have 30,000 men catapulted out of the Army within the next few months. Where are they to go? Are they to go into employment? Are they to go to the employment exchanges to get unemployment benefit or are they to go there when their gratuities are exhausted? Is there any provision for re-settling those men in industry or anywhere else? I suggest that what the Government will do with those people who are discharged from the Army is provide them with a gratuity and the right to obtain unemployment benefit and take no further interest in them. I expect that 30,000 of them will be looking for jobs before this year is out. That will be 30,000 in addition to the 70,000 whom we already have. What about the returned emigrants, then? The Minister told us that the national income takes cognisance of the fact that emigrants' remittances amount to £13,500,000, the prewar figure under that head being approximately £3,000,000. Then, he went on to say that, at the conclusion of hostilities, it was quite likely that the £13,500,000 would move back to £3,000,000. As the £13,500,000 moves back to £3,000,000, so will the emigrants move back here. What do we propose to do in that situation? We have a hard core of unemployment, represented by 70,000 persons at present. We shall have, in all probability, 30,000 men demobilised from the Army. What of the impact on our economic and employment position when large numbers of these emigrants come back at the conclusion of hostilities in Britain, because of lack of opportunity for employment there?

Recently I asked the Taoiseach to say how many people obtained permits to go to Britain to employment since 1940. I was told that, approximately, 170,000 persons got permits to go to employment in Great Britain and Northern Ireland since 1940. This is a substantial number of people—people who would normally be anchored to life in this country. Many of them have homes and relations here and are anxious to come back. Many of them will, doubtless, endeavour to come back when the war is over. Many may have no choice but to come back. Have we any proposals for dealing with that problem? There is none in the Budget. The Minister ought to tell us what his Government proposes to do, particularly after the speech by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in which he said that the Government believed in a policy of full employment. Where is the policy and when is it to be implemented? In his Budget statement the Minister mentioned that prices had risen over 70 per cent. since 1939. From a currency point of view, he said, this compared unfavourably with the 30 per cent. increase in the United Kingdom and, in the interest of maintaining the internal and external purchasing power of our money, it was very desirable that an appreciable downward movement in this index should be secured. Secured by whom? Who is to carry out this pious intention of securing an appreciable downward movement in the index figure? With the Government in control, the House cannot do it. The consumer cannot do it. The public at large cannot do it. This policy can only be implemented by Government action. When the Minister puts a statement like that in his Budget speech, he should tell us what steps the Government propose to take to implement the idea which, he admits, is desirable in the national interest.

As Deputy McGilligan said, I do not think that the Government have any interest whatever in curtailing the rise in prices. As the Budget indicates, they have a natural interest in allowing prices to remain at their present level. The Government collected £4,000,000 in the form of corporation profits tax. That was collected from firms who made profits in excess of what this House and the country believed they were entitled to make and the calculation was a very generous one. The State is collecting £4,000,000 from the profit-making class —the excess profit-making class—and it is permitting the cost-of-living index figure remain 70 per cent. higher than it was in 1939. I put it to the Minister that there is an easy way of applying a remedy to the high cost of living in respect of a large range of commodities, that is, by conducting a searching inquiry into these excess profits and by compelling those who are making exorbitant profits to plough them back, so as to effect a reduction in the price level. So long as the Minister requires £4,000,000 for his Budget, he is perfectly satisfied to allow the public to be "salted" by profit makers.

As I said at the outset, this is a dull Budget. It will be welcomed by the profiteers who will again get away with their swag during the coming year. It makes no provision for the development of our economic resources, for the implementation of a policy of full employment or for the building up of a code of social services which will provide reasonable treatment for helpless sections of the community and it shows no appreciation whatever of the serious situation which will confront the country when tens of thousands of our people who went to Britain during the last five years come back this year and next year and claim their natural right to work for a living in their own land.

Deputy Dillon rose.

Does the Deputy propose to speak on Resolution No. 1?

Yes. Deputy Blowick, the leader of Clann na Talmhan, said to-day and rightly said, that, in the last analysis, the source of the national income in this country is the land, and that, unless that economic fact is appreciated and unless due regard is had to it, no plan for the rehabilitation of the country can succeed. Deputy Blowick did not elaborate that and I venture to say that he did not elaborate it because he was afraid of Deputy Cogan, sitting beside him. The land is the ultimate source of income in this country so long as a profit can be earned by those who live upon it. The produce of our land is sufficient to provide our people with all the food they are capable of consuming, assuming that everybody in this country will get enough, and then there are 7,000,000 acres of land over and above.

I am afraid that the Deputy's references are too general. He will have to deal with the Resolution.

I am dealing with the paragraph of the Minister's speech which refers to the national income.

This Resolution deals with income-tax and surtax. Those are the only matters which are open to debate by the Deputy.

I am going to deal with the Minister's Budget speech.

The Deputy is not at liberty to do that.

We are dealing with Financial Resolution No. 1.

I claim the right to speak on topics touched on by other Deputies in this House.

The rule is—and it has the sanction of custom—that on the conclusion of the statement of the Finance Minister, the Leaders of the chief Opposition Parties are permitted to make a short statement in reference to the general aspects of the Budget. On the final Resolution, the third Resolution in this case, a general debate is permitted on the statement of the Minister for Finance. The Deputy must know that we are now dealing with Finance Resolution No. 1, and I must confine the Deputy closely to the question of income-tax and surtax.

I do not see any reason why there should be any discrimination between the Leader of the Fine Gael Party, the Leader of the Clann na Talmhan Party, the Leader of the Labour Party and me. I have as much right to speak in this House as any of these Deputies.

It is not a right at all. It is a custom or privilege.

I have the same right as any other Deputy in this House to speak.

I cannot allow the Deputy to speak on this Resolution. This privilege is accorded only to leaders of the chief Opposition Parties.

I have as much right to speak for myself as the leaders of the other Parties have to speak for them.

When the Deputy is in order but not otherwise.

How does custom come to rule the proceedings of this House? Is there any statutory provision governing this matter?

It is for the Chair to decide what may be expedient in accordance with custom.

Would the Chair define what is meant by custom?

I claim no right that is not exercised by any other Deputy, but I most certainly do claim a right to speak to this Resolution.

I must ask the Deputy then to confine himself strictly to the subjects of income-tax and surtax.

Perhaps if you will allow me to make a suggestion, if the first two Resolutions were passed, as is customary, any Deputy could speak —I am saying this with all respect— on the final Resolution.

I am quite aware of that, but I propose to speak now on the first Resolution. The first Resolution makes provision in regard to income-tax. It is very necessary to ascertain clearly what sections of the community that Resolution is going to touch. I think it will be agreed by all sections in this House that it is eminently desirable that the largest possible proportion of the community should be liable to income-tax by the measure of their earnings. The more people who have to pay income-tax in this country, the lower will be the rate of income-tax necessary in order to raise the revenue requisite for the Minister's purposes. If we could secure that the income of every individual in this State reached the level at which income-tax would be levied, I think the House would agree that we could fix, instead of 7/6 in the £, a rate perhaps as low as 5/- in the £. The reason it is necessary to fix a rate of 7/6 is that so small a section of our community are earning incomes which make them subject to income-tax. The vast majority of our people are not paying income-tax because their incomes are not sufficiently high. I want to make some proposals which will operate to reduce the standard rate of income-tax by bringing within the ambit of the tax a very much larger section of the community than is at present liable. The first thing necessary to bring a larger section of the community within the ambit of the income-tax laws is to ensure that a larger section of the community shall enjoy a larger income than they have at present. The only way a person can secure an income in this country, if he is not a wage-earner, is to earn a profit in his trade or business.

If I want to bring a particular section of the community into the ranks of the income-tax payers of the country, I think, naturally, of the largest section, whose introduction into the ranks of income-tax payers would provide the largest measure of relief. The largest section of the community are those who live on the land. I want to secure a situation in which every farmer will be earning so large an income and so high a profit on the land he works that he will come to have an income as high as those who are at present paying income-tax. What is the farmer's profit? What is this fund we seek to raise? What is this fund we seek to increase? The farmer's profit is the difference between his cost of production and the price he gets for his finished product. In this country we could control the price that is paid for farm produce if our farm produce came from no larger area than 5,000,000 acres, but the farmers of this country live on 12,000,000 acres, so that we have got to dispose outside of Ireland of the produce of 7,000,000 acres if the farmers are to make a profit. The only place in which they can dispose of their produce, bitter experience teaches us, is Great Britain. Now, there is no use deceiving ourselves that we can raise the price of agricultural produce in Great Britain, because we cannot. We have got to take in Great Britain the best price we can get for our agricultural produce. If we bear in mind that the farmer's profit is the difference between that price in Great Britain and the cost of production, and if we realise that we cannot raise that price in Great Britain, we must ask ourselves is there any other means by which we can increase the farmer's profit. I suggest to the House that, inasmuch as profit is the difference between the cost of production and the price realised, if we cannot raise the price and thus increase the profit, we can bring down the cost of production and that will have the same effect.

To that end, therefore, and in order to raise the income of the farmers to a level which would bring them within the ambit of this Financial Resolution, I ask the Minister for Finance where is there in his Budget any proposal to achieve this purpose? I suggest to him that unless and until he brings forward concrete proposals to reduce the cost of production for the agricultural community and thus increase their profits and their incomes, every other effort to rehabilitate financial and social conditions in this country is futile. So long as the Minister retains taxes on the raw materials of the agricultural industry, he is making permanent a condition which renders it impossible for the farmers living on the land to earn the profit they should have and makes it permanently impossible for them to reach the level of income which he should desire. What is worse, so long as that situation continues every other scheme he has in mind is hamstrung by the inescapable fact that the one ultimate source of real profit in this country is made profitless and that all other elements in the community must, under this Resolution, bear an undue share of the tax burden or, if they are wage-earners, fail to get in their own country that measure of employment which would relieve the social services of the country and thus render the taxation under this particular Financial Resolution less burdensome than it already is.

There is the fundamental fact underlying the whole budgetary position of this State; there is the fundamental fact to which no Deputy—the Leader of the Opposition, the Leader of Clann na Talmhan, or the Leader of the Labour Party—made any reference whatever. It is one fact to which the Minister for Finance made no reference, and I challenge him in the course of his concluding observations to say if it is his intention to remove from the raw materials of the agricultural industry, the taxes, restrictions and quotas that have increased costs, and thereby diminished farmers' profits, or is it his intention to leave them on? If he takes them off, we can begin to go places; if he leaves them on, all the Budget statement is moonshine, because the ultimate source of the entire national income is being dried up, without which no section of our community will survive, leaving nothing behind it but poverty and degradation. Let the Minister take the requisite measures, remove taxation and restore to those who live on the land, their ability to make profits. We can then plan and achieve the purposes that have been referred to in the various speeches made to-day.

I would like to remind the Deputy that farmers do not usually pay taxes under this Resolution.

Perhaps the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would have recourse to a competent accountant who would instruct him better on income-tax matters than apparently he has been instructed.

Question put and agreed to.
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