The debate on the Land Bill a few weeks ago has more or less superseded this debate because practically everything that could be said in regard to land division was said on that Bill. I was glad that the Minister had the pleasing information for those tenants who have had their land for the past 15 or 16 years that they were going at last to be vested. That has been a burning question with most of us for quite a long time. I am glad that the Minister is going to tackle it and that he hopes that inside 12 months these allottees will be in a position to call the land their own and to deal with it as they would like to deal with it. Before land division starts, on a new scale, I should like to see a general review of the principles governing land division so that we shall be able to see the errors of our ways in the past and take such steps as are necessary to climinate these errors in future. I think one of the first questions calling for examination is whether we are satisfied that we are not creating new agricultural slums in the cottages which are being built on small holdings in the Midlands. I think that is a matter that will seriously affect the future prosperity of the agricultural population if we do not give it the necessary consideration now. In my county, which is one of the most important from an agricultural point of view in the country, we have had a number of new colonies started in recent years. The cottages on these colonies may look very well at the moment when times are good, when money is flowing freely around the country and the tenants are doing fairly well. I do not think, however, that we shall always be in the happy position of getting good prices for everything we have to sell and these tenants will be severely tested when the bad times come. Will a tenant with a holding of 25 statute acres be able to make good in such times and, if not, what will happen in these colonies? That is one of the matters which I should like the Minister to review before we decide to go on creating new colonies and expecting people to live on holdings of 21 or 25 acres. I know there is not enough land to go around but, at the same time, what is the use of creating agricultural slums?
I would ask the Minister to review that position fully. Suppose we have a period of depression in the next five, six or even ten years, and that these holdings are vested, if a man finds that he cannot make a living out of his holding, he will put it up for sale and get out. We do not want that to happen. I saw that happen on an estate within the last 25 years. It occurred in the case of the Browne estate outside of Trim. Of the ten or 12 allottees who got holdings on it, I do not think that there are more than three of the original men there to-day. One man did very well. He was the herd. He was a thrifty, hard-working man, and, thanks to his energy, he has bought up practically half that estate, and is a well-to-do man to-day. That, of course, is bound to bring us back to the ranching system again. That sort of thing is bound to happen if, in the first instance, you do not give a man a holding large enough to enable him to rear his family on. He ought to be in a position to be able to do that in bad times as well as in good times.
I live in the County Meath, and I am satisfied that no man who has to live by the land alone can live out of 25 acres. The Minister will reply to me that the migrants there are doing very well. I agree, but so is everybody else who wants to work his land. Everybody who has land to-day is doing fairly well. They are all making a little money. What I want to tell the Minister is this, that while the migrants there are making good, and are working hard, they are not making their living solely out of the land. I am sure he will agree with me on that. Large numbers of their young men and women go across to England, where they earn good money. Portion of it goes to the payment of rents and rates. The fact that it is coming into the country is all to the good. There is no use in anybody saying, however, that the migrants there are living solely out of the land, because they are not.
In connection with the colonies that we have in Meath, I want to put this point to the Minister; I think it is a bad thing to have them isolated. Groups of migrants are brought from Mayo, Clare or Kerry. You may have 20 or 30 families. A colony is formed, and that group of people is more or less isolated from the people of the county. The tendency is to create a feeling of mistrust between the migrants and the people of Meath. The two peoples do not mix. The Meath people look on them as a blight, and they look on the Meath people as bounders. If the Department has to make colonies in Meath, then let there be a mixture of Meath and Kildare people with people from Mayo, Kerry and Clare. The House seemed to be alarmed at the conditions in Meath as I described them here some time ago. Deputies need not be alarmed.
The conditions there are bad, with fighting going on from publichouse to dance hall. It is a shame to see what happens there. I believe myself that the cause of it all is that no attempt is made to have a blending of the Meath men with those from Kerry and other counties. The Meath man may say to the Kerry man: "What brought you up here to get land that should be given to us?" The other man replies that his people were driven off the land 100 years ago. That is how fights start. They fight from dance hall to dance hall, in publichouses and in public places.
The people in Meath have no objection to the migrants coming there if a good, decent type is brought. I must say that during the last seven or eight years the Department has concentrated on bringing a good, manly type of migrant to the county. My advice to the Department is that if we are to have more colonies in Meath, then some effort should be made to mix the people of Meath with the migrants. That is the only way in which we will get rid of this bitterness, all the fighting and squabbling that goes on. We are all Irishmen, and we all like the other fellow if e can. It is all a "cod" to say that colonies of Irish speakers have been put there who will help to bring back the Irish language. What I find is that the people who come there from the West and South are doing their level best to learn good English. The young people say that is their ambition, so they will be able to go across to England and earn their living. There are several people in my locality at the present time who are waiting for their passports to go to Britain. The fact is that in Meath at the present time the whole ambition of these people is to get to the other side so that they may be able to get quick money. They do not want to work in Ireland. I agree that in the case of some of them, when they make good money on the other side, they come back and marry into a neighbour's farm.
In connection with the division of land in Meath and in other parts of the Midlands, I want to suggest to the Minister that I think it would be far better, instead of giving an allottee a horse or a cow, to give him a good farm of land and £200 in cash. With this money he could buy a cow or a horse if he wanted one, or a mowing machine. There is no use in the Land Commission forcing a cow or a plough on a man who wants something else. Give him the £200 in cash and 30 acres of land, and see to it that he spends that money wisely. Some of the horses that have been given to those allottees were most unsuitable. The Land Commission paid up to £60 and £65 for some of them. In fact, they purchased half-thoroughbreds that cost £70 and £75.
What is the use in giving a half-thoroughbred to an unfortunate man who has hardly ever yoked an ass to a car in his life? When a man like that takes out a half-bred horse, he soon finds himself on the roadside with the horse kicking sky-high. A veterinary surgeon told me that he is out practically night and day attending the horses given to some of these allottees. The horses get caught in the barbed wire and injure themselves badly. I have known of cases where good horses that cost £70 or £80 had to be sold within a fortnight by the migrant for a £5 note. In other cases the horses had to be destroyed. That is why I suggest that the £200 in cash should be given to an allottee with a fairly good farm of 30, 35 or 40 acres. If that were done, those people would make good farmers. The British did that when they were here. I do not mention that with the intention of suggesting that everything the British did here was right. But they did that in the case of some land that they divided before we got our freedom, and that method proved satisfactory.
There is another point that I want to bring to the Minister's notice, and it is that these allottees have no place in which to store the grain that they grow. They are given a little stable or shed for a horse and a couple of cows. What they need most of all is accommodation for the storing of grain. At present they have to put it in a room in the house, but after a week or so it begins to sprout. The result is that they have to dispose of it to the nearest merchant as quickly as possible and at whatever price they are offered. It would be of great advantage to them if they could hold the grain until such time as a reasonable price was to be obtained. If the Land Commission is not prepared to put up a loft for the allottee it should at least allow him to spend an additional £5 in having the walls of the shed raised a yard higher. I say to many of these new allottees: "Get it specially built; the Land Commission will not build the walls high enough for you to put in a loft. Go to your contractor and tell him that you are prepared to put up so much money to have the roof raised four feet." The Land Commission engineer almost always agrees and says he is glad to see these allottees putting up a little of their own money for the out-offices.
It is most essential that every allottee should have a grain loft, because it is not possible to store wheat, oats or barley on the ground floor. It must be stored up high on a good wooden floor. When sowing time comes around, all these allottees have to rush to the merchants to buy grain at huge prices and in many cases they get the same grain as they sold earlier at low prices. It will cost the Land Commission very little to do what I suggest. The aim of the Land Commission is to make a holding a good holding, and the only way to do it is by giving the allottee a chance, by giving him a good loft. With regard to the fencing of holdings, nearly everybody who came up to Meath got a pair of piers and a gate, but the Meath people who got farms in most cases got neither piers nor gates, and I urge the Minister to see to it that, when a man gets a new house and a holding, he will at least get a pair of piers and a gate. He is certainly entitled to it. Let there be no discrimination.
After 25 years of land division, we find that the majority of our little holdings are fast deteriorating, and I defy contradiction of that statement. It is easy to understand why that should be so. The land of Meath was formerly the richest in Europe. It would grease your boots to walk through it, but, with these small uneconomic holdings, people can feed only small stock. The hardest animals in the world are young live stock who take the bone out of the land, and the small allottee cannot get manure enough to replace it, with the result that the land is deteriorating year after year. It is all due to the fact that these men have not got enough land, and so can have no rotation. If a man with 25 acres wants to work on an economic basis, he must keep two horses and three cows. If he does so, he will be able to keep very little more, whereas if he had 30 to 35 Irish acres, he would be able to close off part of his holding during the winter and have it in good trim for 1st April for putting his cows and young stock out. At present nearly all these allottees are trying to put in all the stock they can, and I do not blame them. It is the only way they can make their holdings pay, but the result is that they have more stock on the holdings in winter than they can hold and the animals are deep in mud, from October to April. The land does not get the smallest chance to get into condition. The land is fast deteriorating, and that is why I ask the Minister to review the position, with a view to seeing whether he can make the holdings a little bigger, and so enable men to close off ten acres or so and give it a chance of getting into condition for two or three months. It would make a vast difference to the economy of the men on these holdings. These men are able to produce only small scraggy store cattle and are never able to turn them out for fairs or markets in proper fettle. The result is that the bigger man buys these cattle at scrap prices and brings them to his rich lands, possibly across the road, where they immediately start to thrive and he doubles his money on every bullock he buys.
Our small people will never be able to get on their feet if we continue this policy of giving them small holdings. As one who lives in their midst and who has a small holding, I know what I am talking about. I want to see the policy stopped, because these men in bad times will never make good, and as fast as these little holdings can be sold, they will be sold when depression comes along. There is nothing else for them to do. Even in good times, these men are put to the pin of their collar to make good, and if they have from six to nine children, they have livings which are amongst the most miserable in Europe. I do not suggest that the man with five or six sons up to 18 years of age has a miserable time. He is able to make good because he has not got to pay any wages. The sons perhaps get half a crown at the end of the week, but the man with a young family has a hell of a job. The fact is that that man is in rags. I know that the small, uneconomic farmer is one of the most miserable creatures, with never a day's comfort. When the farm is beginning to get on its feet, that unfortunate man dies. He may leave a little behind for his children, but during his lifetime he will have had no comfort.
With regard to the new Land Bill, I was sorry that it had to be introduced, but I know that the Minister had no alternative. There are a vast number of men who could have made good, but did not, and there are other men who could have made good but for the fact that the hand of God was against them. I know one man who, within a month of getting his farm, lost all his stock through a fire, but I am glad to say he is getting on his feet again. I know another man with a large family whose wife was taken from him and who was left in a miserable condition. Another man has been in bad health for the past ten years and will never be able to make good. I ask the Land Commission to be lenient with these people, to judge each case on its own merits. I do not, however, ask them to be lenient with the "buckos" who got a new house and a farm and who will not live in them, who in many cases have set the houses and live perhaps in a labourer's cottage. These are fiends who deserve everything. These men are doing more harm to County Meath than anything else. It is easy for the Land Commission to tell me: "So-and-so got a new house and a farm and never lived in it and why should any other Meath man get a farm?" and to say that they will bring them from the North, South and West and show the Meath people how to work the land, but that is not fair because the fact is that many of these people who got land never should have got it. It is a disgrace that these men should have got new houses and farms valued at £1,200 for which they had no respect.
I have in mind the Gore Estate, Dunshaughlin, where cattle taken in on the 11 months' system from the big ranchers were allowed to roam around, smashing glass in windows, tearing the doors off the houses and leaving the place in a dirty condition. If you saw the condition of the place, you would not sleep a night afterwards. Six or seven houses were allowed to go derelict. These "buckos" would not live in them and would not even put a fence around the houses and they still hold the land. If they do not mend their ways, I hope the Land Commission will give them the order of the boot as quickly as possible.
I have every sympathy with the unfortunate tenant who got into difficult circumstances. There are many like that. Forty or 50 of the new tenants in County Meath may find themselves at the pin of their collar to keep their holdings, under the new Land Bill. I ask the Minister to take each on his circumstances and to have his inspectors visit the parish priest of the area, who knows the circumstances in every case from A to Z. Many of those who may be evicted under the new Land Bill are the unfortunate victims of circumstances and would have made good if they could. It is not their fault. I know that we did give land to men who never had a shilling. That type of man will never make good, as he has not the inclination in the first place and has not the land spirit in the second place. Such men never care whether they rise or fall. Even if some of them fall and rise in the morning they do not continue and they say that the moment they are vested they will cash in and get out. I know many of them who are waiting to be vested in order to get out. Even so, I would rather see them vested and let them get out, so that some thrifty lad may come in and make good.
I agree with Deputy Hughes, who mentioned that when dividing a large estate one should go outside the scope of a mile-and-a-half. There are many small farms which have ten acres at the home, five acres further on and perhaps five more further away. It is a most wasteful position and it is not economic. They have to do a little farming here and a little farming there. Such men should be able to say: "I have three little holdings and will give them up for a full estate." Their case should be considered. The first thing we want in land division is economic holdings—to make uneconomic holdings economic. There are many little farmers in my own area who could be put on those estates and who would do work which would have a lasting effect.
I again stress the point I started on, that if you are making new colonies you must see that you mix the Meath people and the other people so that there will be friendship. It should not be as it is at present, with the migrant's son on one side of the road and the Meath people on the other side of the road, at the church gates, with no friendship between them. There is no reason why they should not be friendly. As it is, if there is a charity dance being run, you find they come together. But then, when there are three or four pints exchanged between them, you find them quarrelling with one another. It is all over the land.
If the Minister does not believe me, let him go down to any part of County Meath and see what is wrong. Things do not all appear in the papers, but enough appears in the papers to alarm the people. The migrants were rushed in too quickly and too secretly. No one was told anything about it. All we knew was that charabancs and buses came to the town of Navan and the people were left there at the hotels. The hotels were told to have so many dinners ready for so-and-so, and so the migrants were brought down to the colonies. If the word were carried beforehand, instead of doing it in secret, there would be much better results. The Meath people said: "We are not going to have these people in here; we want the land of Meath for the people of Meath." I do not stand for that. Let the land be divided four square between us all.
I believe the problem of congestion has been there not for hundreds of years but for thousands of years. I would ask the Minister, in relieving congestion, to go back to Mr. Hogan's policy and see that some of the big estates in the West—as big as in Meath, and bigger—are taken over. One could give such people a farm of 80 acres in Meath, which would be as good as 300 acres in the West; and the estate in the West could be divided, instead of bringing hundreds of smaller fry up to Meath. I do not want to stop migration, but why should not that policy be adopted? We have Lord Adare and Lord So-and-So, with 5,000 and 6,000 acres. Why leave them in that position? Why not take that land and give them an estate near Dublin or in Meath of 80 or 100 acres? That would mean keeping the population in the West and making it economic. I think the old system is good, but should be worked more in conjunction with present migration. If you keep the present system going, two or three parishes in Mayo would be able to send enough to flood the whole of Meath. The large estates in the West should be tackled first and, if that is not sufficient, one can try the other system. Do not be studding Meath with isolated colonies, which are only breeding hatred and discontent. We are happy to live with the migrants and work with them, and they wish to do the same, but things are bad and they are left isolated. If the Minister can set that right, a big bone of contention will be taken away.