Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jul 1946

Vol. 102 No. 4

Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1946—Second Stage.

Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. Childers)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. During the emergency special provisions were found to be necessary in order to defer the dissolution of Dáil Éireann until a new election had been completed. Provision was also made to facilitate voters and expedite the counting of the votes, particularly during the time when transport might be expected to be deficient.

The principal purpose of this Bill is to repeal the temporary provisions which related solely to the emergency in order to enable the Dáil to be dissolved and remain so dissolved until a new election takes place. The other provisions in the Bill were found by us to be, generally speaking, effective, and we consider they should form part of the ordinary electoral law. We are, therefore, taking the opportunity of carrying out a certain amount of minor consolidation in respect of these particular matters and to enact in permanent form certain provisions which, up to now, have been of temporary duration only.

As regards Section 2 of the Bill, it should be noted that, prior to the passing of emergency legislation, the hours of the poll were from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. and there is no power to vary these hours in the ordinary law. We consider that certain circumstances may arise making it desirable to postpone the closing of a poll until 9.30 p.m.— for example, if there was a crisis in connection with transport or if a general election took place, through some untoward event, during the time when agricultural workers were very busily engaged—and it is felt that there should be an opportunity to vary the closing time of the poll. I think the members of the House will agree that such a suggestion has an obvious appeal to persons of all parties.

As regards Section 3, under the law, prior to the passing of emergency legislation, votes could be counted outside a constituency and the time at which the counting must begin is not defined with any great precision, nor is the returning officer compelled to commence the counting within a certain period of the closing of the poll. Moreover, the counting may be adjourned at 7 p.m. unless the returning officer and all the agents in a particular constituency agree to continue counting the votes. Section 3 of the Bill, on the contrary, requires the votes to be counted at a convenient place and the opening of the ballot boxes must commence at 9 a.m. on the morning after the closing of the poll. It is also provided that counting may continue until 11 p.m. and thereafter if all the parties agree. The result of this should be that in the ordinary way in most constituencies the result should be available within 48 hours of the close of the poll. I think all members of the House will agree that speed in counting the votes is a good policy to encourage.

Section 4 deals with polling cards. There is no existing authority in the normal election law to provide for the issue of polling cards to voters indicating to them the place at which they should vote. A temporary measure was passed which did not provide for local elections but which enabled polling cards to be issued to the electorate in respect of general elections. The purpose at that time was to ensure that electors unaccustomed to special polling booths arranged for them by the local authority because of the scarcity of transport should be directed to these polling booths.

We consider that the issue of polling cards should be made part of the permanent legislation of the country. We think it is an excellent thing that the returning officer should notify each citizen of where he may vote so that he will have full indication of the polling booth and the number of his vote apart from any information that he might be given through the free election literature that is distributed, sometimes by all Parties but sometimes only by one or two Parties and frequently not by independent candidates, at an election. Moreover—it is only a small point—when a person enters a polling booth, if he has his polling card with him and does not have to show or demonstrate any electoral literature, to some degree, it increases the secrecy of the vote.

Section 5 deals with deputy returning officers. Under the existing law a returning officer may, but is not required to, appoint a deputy to count the votes where the votes in more than one constituency have to be counted by the same officer. Under the existing law, prior to the emergency, a returning officer could proceed from one place of counting to another. In that way there would be a delay in the result of the election. We have now provided that a deputy returning officer should be appointed for each constituency.

Section 6 refers also to the appointment of returning officers. If a returning officer suddenly collapsed just prior to the holding of an election, the only power to enable the election to be carried out is that which authorises the Minister to do whatever is necessary in an emergency. We consider that the Minister for Local Government and Public Health should be given definite powers to appoint a returning officer if the returning officer is prevented by illness or other cause from carrying out his duties.

Section 8 refers to polling on islands. Polling places are provided on the larger islands and, at previous elections, before the emergency, it has happened that, owing to the weather, the transport of a ballot boxes to and from the island has been delayed. It is not always possible to hold the poll on an island the same day as on the mainland. Returning officers have been in some doubt as to their powers in the matter, and under legislation prior to the emergency it was necessary to issue what was known as a "difficulty Order" authorising the poll to be taken whenever it can be taken.

Section 8, therefore, continues the special provision which we made during the emergency, when we felt that the difficulties experienced on islands might be somewhat enhanced, and now makes the powers of the returning officer quite clear. The poll may be taken on an earlier date than the general date of the election and in this way the returning officer will be in no doubt as to his powers in order to enable an election to take place, the votes to be collected, and so forth.

Section 9 repeals the emergency legislation. In the case of the other repeals, the repeals have been reenacted in this Bill as an entire section. This course is preferable to amending the existing law as it would involve legislation by reference. It should be stated that the Electoral Act, 1923, was changed in a number of respects which relate to the present Bill, in the Electoral Act of 1927 and again in the Electoral Revision of Constituencies Act, 1935, and it was felt desirable to carry out a small degree of consolidation by not only including the changes suggested but all those relating to these changes in the general provisions of the Electoral Act, 1923, and to amend that Act.

I trust the House will agree with the course we propose to take. There is no fundamental principle involved in any of these proposals, all of which are designed to improve what has always been regarded as, on the whole, very satisfactory election machinery.

General Mulcahy

We have no special opposition to offer to this measure except that I do not see really why the hours of polling at general elections should not be fixed definitely by statute. The less tinkering there is by Order with any details in connection with a general election, I think, the better, because the less suspicion there is in people's minds that matters are being wangled to suit a particular class or a particular Party. I think the hours of polling up to the present—9 a.m. to 9 p.m.—have never given any great difficulty and should be allowed to stand. I do not see that there is any special need to give the Minister power, by Order, in particular circumstances, to change the 9 o'clock hour.

The polling card system will be welcomed and I think a lot of people would give an additional welcome to it if the polling cards could be presented as identity cards to the returning officer when the voters went to the poll. I know there is a difficulty with the cards that there is no guarantee that they will arrive through the post and there are other loop-holes with regard to them. But, if a satisfactory system could be found of making the polling card also an identity card for voters, it would eliminate a lot of dissatisfaction and a lot of suspicion that there is at the present time. There have been in recent elections continuous complaints that when the boxes are open voting papers are found folded in such a condition that they could not have been put into the box individually. Groups of voting papers have been found folded together in such a way that they must have been put into the box folded together. It gives rise to complaints that there is some kind of system of multiple voting by certain people and then the usual suggestion that there is personation and malpractices of that particular kind. If polling cards could be used to eliminate some of these malpractices or even some of the suspicion, it would be a satisfactory thing. I am quite sure there is necessity to appoint deputies for returning officers as a matter of general practice.

Mr. O'Leary

I should like to point out to the Parliamentary Secretary that there is no doubt that during the last local election there was great confusion in the urban and rural areas because the voters were handed three ballot papers. On some occasions, owing to the confusion caused by the talking on the platform, voters marked one for the President and two and three on the county council paper and urban paper. They were confused. I agree with Deputy Mulcahy. Old people especially become confused and that is why we have so many spoilt votes. In my constituency, ballot papers have not been marked but have just been folded up and put into the box.

There is great confusion at a general election. On one occasion, if you did not vote for the Government, you were to vote for the Constitution. At the last county council and urban elections the slogan was: "If you do not vote for Fianna Fáil, vote for the President." The public should be shown the correct method of voting, so as to obviate confusion. Owing to the lack of a system of marking on that occasion, they did not know which box was the county council box and which the urban council box. Something should be done to get rid of all this confusion, especially in the case of a general election, when there is always something to confuse the voters.

Mr. Bartley

I want to make a plea on behalf of blind voters. It is quite unfair that the secrecy of the ballot should be violated in respect of blind voters. We ought to provide that a blind person would be allowed to take a friend with him behind the screen to mark his ballot paper and so give him the same right as is afforded to people with sight. There is another matter which I understood was to be dealt with, but I do not think there was any reference to it in the Parliamentary Secretary's explanatory statement. I think it would be advisable to drop the alphabetical arrangement in towns and to group the voters according to households under house numbers. That would obviate certain confusion which arises in large towns and would also help to establish the identity of people of the same surname.

I know that there is a difficulty where streets are not properly numbered, and I do not see that it would be possible to carry my suggestion out until a proper numbering system has been adopted, but if provision were made that such a change could be introduced when a numbering system had been adopted by the urban authority, I think it would be worth while trying it out.

I believe it would facilitate the various Parties, and in the matter of election literature, it would possibly facilitate the registrar in his work if all this literature, cards and so on, were sent to the head of the house and so avoid having half a dozen, or perhaps seven or eight, copies of the same document going into the same house. When a person gets the same document seven times, he takes less interest in the contents than if he got only one copy. For what the suggestion is worth, I throw it out and I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will consider it.

Mr. Childers

On a point of order, I should like to ask for your ruling, Sir, with regard to this Bill. The discussion is becoming very interesting, but it is going far beyond the scope of the Bill. It is not possible for me to discuss all the alleged deficiencies there may be in electoral legislation, and I might add that the whole question of the electoral law is constantly under review, and, any time it is considered suitable, we shall make proposals to enable discussion of matters of this kind take place. The Bill, however, is very short and deals with specific matters. We could have a very long discussion on every point which has arisen in the last two years.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary has said that this is a limited Bill, but, on his own statement, it contains a certain amount of consolidation. I do not think that all the abuses at elections, actual or alleged, come up for discussion, but on the Second Stage of a Bill a certain amount of latitude is allowed. In any case, I do not think there is very much danger of a prolonged discussion on the matter.

General Mulcahy

Particularly in view of the fact that this House has been sitting continuously for six months.

Mr. Cogan

As the scope of this Bill is very limited——

Mr. D. Morrissey

We are entitled to argue that it should not be so limited.

Mr. Cogan

——I do not propose to deal with the general matter of the election laws. I will agree that the changes proposed are of a minor nature, and it is only the fact that they are of a minor nature which deters Deputies from discussing the Bill at great length, as Deputies will always be very much on the alert in regard to any changes in the system of election because there is always the danger that a change or some innovation which may on outward appearance seem innocent enough may have very serious repercussions when put into effect.

For example, a very innocent-looking suggestion was put forward by Deputy Bartley that blind voters should be accompanied into the polling booth. Arising out of that, I can see, in practice, a very large percentage of the voters becoming blind, and I can in practice also see some very active members of the local club becoming near relatives or friends of these blind persons and accompanying them into the polling booth to see that they vote correctly. The Parliamentary Secretary should be slow—and if he is not slow, the House should be slow—to adopt any suggestion of that kind.

It is certainly a hardship on aged educated people to have to go into the polling booth and publicly declare their political allegiance, but the fundamental and most important consideration is the protection of the rights of the citizen and the secrecy of the ballot. I do not think we ought to encourage or make it easy for energetic and active political organisers to sway voters or to influence and direct their actual voting.

With regard to the cards which it is proposed to send out, I think they are an excellent idea, if they were a little less Civil Service-like in lay-out, appearance and wording. The voter should be informed in plain and simple language, easily read, what his number is, where his polling booth is, the day of election and hours of voting. These are the facts which have to be brought home clearly to the voter and they should be set out in plain, simple and direct language which a person can easily read.

Another matter is the speeding up to some extent of the counting of votes. This is a very urgent matter, particularly in places where the amount of time taken in counting the votes is altogether excessive, mainly due to the fact that the staff provided is in many cases inadequate. In county council elections, where there is a big number of candidates and electoral divisions, the counting of votes does require considerable time, and in many cases I believe that sufficient staff is not provided to get through the count expeditiously. In the case of Parliamentary elections, it is also desirable, particularly in the case of a general election, that the results should be made known as early as possible and so avoid whatever general dislocation may be caused due to uncertainty as to the result. I do not know whether the Bill confines the power to alter the hours to those mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary. I think it should. Otherwise the Minister should not have wide powers for varying the hours during which elections may take place. A wide variation might certainly cause favouritism towards one Party or one section. A variation of one half-hour cannot make very much difference, and it might be more convenient to leave such power in the hands of the Minister.

Deputy Mulcahy referred to an extremely important matter, that of a number of ballot papers being folded together and put into the ballot box. I heard of that happening, but I never had a case of the kind actually brought to my notice. I should like to know if instructions are issued to returning officers and their staffs to take action where a number of ballot papers are folded together. When three or four ballot papers are folded together, that would clearly indicate that the presiding officer or his clerk were responsible for allowing them to be put into the box in that way. There would be need there for an immediate investigation by the returning officer. It would be his function, on such facts being disclosed, to take immediate action. I am not sure what action should be taken, but certainly steps should be taken to investigate the cause.

Mr. Hilliard

In my opinion it would be more convenient for voters in rural districts if the polling booths were kept open as long as possible in the evenings. I find that voters in rural areas, when engaged on bog work or on farm work, at which they might be obliged to work overtime, often have a distance to travel to their homes before going to the polling booths. As a result they often find it difficult to get there in time. In these areas the booths should be left open until 9.30 p.m. As to the complaints of two or three ballot papers being bundled together, and put into the ballot box, my experience of elections is that it is the duty of the presiding officer to see that the booths are properly conducted. If the personating agents and the staff in the polling booth were conducting the business properly such abuses would not occur.

Some power should be taken in the Bill to deal with presiding officers who allow that to occur, and also to deal with presiding officers who do not stamp ballot papers in every case with the official seal. It is deplorable to think that, when voters have gone to the trouble of going to the booths to record their votes, for whatever side they are interested in, it is found at the counting that they are null and void, owing to the action of a presiding officer, either inadvertently or through negligence, in not stamping the ballot papers. The Parliamentary Secretary should take that matter into consideration, so that there should be power to deal with presiding officers who do not conduct the proceedings properly.

Mr. Pattison

This is an amending Bill, and there is one aspect of this question which, while not strictly covered by the Bill, I might be permitted to refer to. Complaints are heard from time to time about the high percentage of people who do not vote at elections. A great many people believe that there ought to be compulsory voting. I do not advocate that. I am not an advocate of compulsion in any shape or form. In my opinion a great many people stay away from polling booths because of the activities of the various parties interested in elections. There is too much bustling and annoying conduct permitted, not only outside polling stations but sometimes it goes on in the booths. I know cases where the candidates have been actually present in polling booths while the ballot papers of illiterate voters were being marked by presiding officers. That position wants tightening up.

Our people ought to have a higher regard for free elections, and timid citizens should be assured of a clear road to the polling stations, at which they could conscientiously record their views in regard to the candidates before the electorate. As the matter is an important one, I took the opportunity, with the permission of the Chair, to refer to it. I appreciate that the Parliamentary Secretary is doing something to strengthen the secrecy of the ballot box, and I have made my observations in the hope that he will see that something is done to have a clear road kept for voters at elections.

Mr. Childers

We have had quite a number of interesting points raised during the debate. With reference to the polling cards, Deputy Mulcahy suggested that they might be used as identity cards. We have had the whole question of polling cards under review and, in general, we consider that the suggestion would be rather dangerous, and might lead to a new form of personation in areas where personation agents are not active. It might possibly happen that dishonest persons could actually use identity cards sent to absent voters. The declaration of identity under our election law is dealt with under a number of public statutes, and very grave consideration would have to be given to any mechanical-like issue of cards, which would assist the authorities in undertaking identity. I think that such a matter would have to be definitely deferred so far as this Bill is concerned; and, so far as I can gather, it would be a dangerous procedure. Deputy Cogan spoke of having less Civil Service language on the polling card. I certainly have no objection to examining the draft polling card for the next general election or by-election, but, as far as I remember, any appearance of administrative red tape wording on the card is a matter of ensuring that the law is understood and that the card serves the particular purpose for which it is issued and no other purpose. We can always look at the card on a future occasion.

Deputy Bartley raised the question of arrangements for voting by blind persons and advocated an alteration in the system. We have had representations from time to time from associations who take care of the interests of blind persons. It has been suggested to us that it should be possible for a blind person to enable a friend to record his vote for him. Taking everything into consideration we have so far considered that it is best to leave the system as it is at present because we feel that there would be a possibility of slightly more abuse if we were to change the system than any abuse which might occur at present. One of the obvious facts in regard to blind voters is that many of these unfortunate people are not only blind but are frequently very feeble and infirm in mind and body. Any change in the system would place them, possibly, in a more difficult position than that in which they now find themselves, and any change would have to be very carefully considered. I think all Deputies are fully aware of what I mean.

We next had a discussion on the ballot papers in general. Deputy O'Leary referred to the confusion of voters during the double elections in 1945. At the time of the presidential election and the local government elections in urban areas there were frequently three elections taking place, and there was a certain confusion. But that matter does not arise on this Bill. The arrangements for having the ballots for the presidential election and the local government elections were the subject of a special Bill here in which these matters were considered. I am afraid I can make no observations on that matter now.

Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy Cogan referred to the folding of papers— papers being folded together and found folded together in the ballot boxes. I am very glad to tell the House that, although after every general election we have a number of observations made to us sometimes by Deputies, sometimes by the returning officers, and sometimes by the general public, all alleging abuses, we have no record of such a complaint. We have, at least, no record during the last general election and, so far as I can remember, no complaint in any event. The position is that instructions are issued to the presiding officer that he should not allow a number of ballot papers to be folded together when being placed in the ballot boxes. He is supposed to ensure that each ballot paper is placed in the box separately; neither are persons supposed to remove ballot papers from the polling booth.

General Mulcahy

Has the returning officer any instructions as to what he is to do when he finds papers folded together on the boxes being opened?

Mr. Childers

I am not quite certain about that. I doubt if he can do anything. I will, however, give the House an assurance that we will go into the matter and if we find any evidence that that this abuse has taken place on a considerable scale, when we issue instructions to the returning officers such instructions occasionally include items of an abnormal character and things which have come to our notice on a previous election, we will certainly remind returning officers of their duty in regard to multiple folded ballot papers. We can include this in any special instructions we issue in the future.

Deputy Hilliard spoke of the failure of certain presiding officers to stamp ballot papers. I am glad to say that complaints about that have been absolutely negligible. It is possible to stop the fees of any presiding officer who commits such an offence and not to reappoint him.

Deputy Bartley referred to the printing of the register of voters in such a manner that the persons would be numbered in the order of their residences in a street. In actual fact we are attempting to do that where possible, but I cannot guarantee that the work will be carried out in time for the next register. That is our intention, however, and we have already issued a provisional suggestion to the local authorities.

With regard to the hours of polling, Deputy Cogan suggested that the Minister should only have a very limited power and that he should be able to extend the time only to a limited degree. Under the Bill he can extend the time for half an hour. I think that extension is advisable, particularly at certain periods of the year, such as during harvest time, or sowing, or where there might be some kind of transport strike. I think in that case an extension is justified and it is just as well that the Minister should be given that power. I cannot conceive of any situation where an extension of polling time by half an hour could favour one Party more than another.

Deputy Pattison spoke of hustling both in the street outside the polling booth and in the polling booth itself. The presiding officer has ample power to prevent any kind of hustling or undue disturbance in the polling booth. He should be perfectly clear in regard to his powers in that direction and he should be able to stop anything in the nature of obstruction or anything in the nature of silent intimidation. His powers are very definite. As far as hustling outside the polling booth is concerned, that is a matter for the Guards and the Guards are in a position to stop anything in the nature of intimidation or obstruction on the road, or the blocking of the road by persons in a manner which would give the impression of intimidation. I must say I have had very few complaints as to anything which might be described as negative intimidation. There, again, the Guards are fully aware of their duties and, as far as I am aware, they perform them adequately and well. I think that deals with all the points raised.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered that the Committee Stage be taken on the 11th July, 1946.