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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Nov 1946

Vol. 103 No. 6

Minister and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 1946—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

As will be seen from its Long Title, this measure proposes to establish two new Department of State, one to deal with Health Services and the other with the services which provide in various ways for the maintenance in varying degrees of family or individual income. The Departments will be placed in charge of a Minister for Health and a Minister for Social Welfare respectively.

It is provided that the Bill when it becomes law is to be construed as one with the Ministers and Secretaries Acts, 1924 to 1939. In this connection, Section 6 of the Act of 1939 is of particular importance. Section 6 of that Act gives the requisite powers of adaptation and adjustment which will be required in consequence of the establishment of the new Departments. Among other things, it enables the Government by Order to give a name to the present Department of Local Government and Public Health which will be more appropriate to its functions as these will be after the detachment of the Department of Health. It may be anticipated that this name will be Department of Local Government and that the title of the Minister responsible for the Department under that name will be Minister for Local Government.

Wait and see. The section I have mentioned furthermore authorises the transfer by Government Order of the administration of any service from one Department to another, thus enabling the appropriate transfers of functions to be made from the existing Departments concerned to the new Departments. It provides similar powers in regard to the transfer of statutory powers from one Minister to another, and it also confers power to adapt enactments consequential on such changes or transfers as I have indicated.

This Bill, therefore, in conjunction with the previous Acts and in particular with the Act of 1939, will provide the full machinery for the establishment of the two new Departments and for the transfer of the appropriate functions to them and for the several matters incidental to or consequential on these changes.

The policy embodied in the proposals to establish a separate Ministry of Health and a Ministry of Social Welfare has been determined only after a close examination of the whole matter in all the Departments concerned, and after much deliberation and full and mature consideration by the Government. In coming to its decisions, the Government has been fortified by the knowledge that it has public opinion behind it in initiating these progressive and far-reaching developments.

I may now disclose, I think, that the examination of the problems involved in the changes began over three years ago. At this point, it may not be out of place to recall that so far back as February, 1944, I made a public statement, foreshadowing the developments which are now taking place, and outlining some of the complexities which would have to be unravelled, before a separate Department of Health could be constituted. I propose to repeat what I said then:

"But one thing I do believe is that ‘if our present health services are to be improved and developed' upon the scale that modern progress and modern conditions demand, ‘the setting up of a Ministry of Health will be necessary'."

From what is the Minister quoting?

An extract from a speech which I made to the University Medical Society, University College, Dublin, on the 21st February, 1944. I continue the quotation:

"The field of preventive and social medicine has become so vast, and the problems which modern conditions and standards of living are creating have become so complex, that they demanded the undivided attention of a mind continuously attuned to deal with them. The setting up of such a Ministry, however, will require a great deal of careful thought, a great deal of preparatory work, and, therefore, quite a significant time before it can be undertaken. For we have so entangled our public health services with our general civic administration that it is going to be a difficult task to disentangle them and to provide for our public health services an administrative system which will give us effective service and yet conform to sound principles of financial and democratic control. For public health services cost money, and a great deal of money. A large part of their cost is borne by the State; the balance, with the exception of capital expenditure defrayed out of sweepstake funds, is provided by local authorities. We have amalgamated those authorities and consolidated their rate-raising powers, and, undoubtedly, this has resulted in greater economy and efficiency in the local administration.

In doing this, however, we have been greatly facilitated by the fact that, not only have such authorities been responsible, directly or indirectly, for the local public health services, but they have been subject to the supervision of a common Ministry for Local Government and Public Health. To separate the rate-raising and other functions of the local authorities from their public health functions, and to place them under the control of separate Departments of State, is going to be a delicate and difficult business, for we have to keep the machine going, and our approach to the task must be highly empirical. But progress in that direction is, in my view, inevitable, and will have to be made sooner or later."

In the following month, on the 31st March, 1944, the Government made an Order, delegating to the senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, certain of the statutory functions of that Minister. This was a temporary measure designed to facilitate the establishment of the new Ministry of Health. As was made clear by the Taoiseach in his statement in the House, and subsequently in the Seanad, this was, as I have said, a temporary measure. On the 30th January last, the developments thus foreshadowed had reached the stage that the Taoiseach was in a position to announce that it had been tentatively decided that a new Department of Health would be established.

Where did he announce that?

On the 30th January of this year in a debate on Private Deputies' Business about which the Leader of the Opposition professes to be so much concerned on occasions. It is very gratifying to note that, apparently the only point of difference between the Taoiseach and the other members of the House on that occasion lay in the fact that he was unable to give an undertaking that the new Department would be set up immediately. So anxious were other Parties in the House that this should be done that the Taoiseach's undertaking to set up such a Department in due course was regarded as unsatisfactory. Notwithstanding his undertaking that not only a new Department of Health but also a new Department of Social Welfare would be instituted, the House divided—and divided entirely on the question of the urgency with which those Departments should be established.

A great deal has happened since then.

On the 3rd April, in the course of a discussion on a motion in the Seanad, the Taoiseach reiterated what he had already said in the Dáil and indicated that a White Paper would be published, outlining the farreaching developments in our health services which the Government proposed to undertake. It might not be inopportune if I told this House what the Taoiseach said in the other House.

And that a White Paper would be published.

I cannot give the column of the Official Report from which this extract is taken but the debate took place in the Seanad on the 3rd April of this year.

We shall give the Minister the column in a minute.

In the course of a statement there, the Taoiseach said:—

"With regard to this particular question of the formation of two new Ministries——"

The column is 1245.

I am refreshing the Deputy's memory and I am glad that he is reciprocating by refreshing mine.

The Deputy is better documented than the Minister.

The Taoiseach is reported as saying:

"With regard to this particular question of the formation of two new Ministries, in the Dáil on at least two occasions I indicated what the position was in this respect. There has been, as you know, a very strong public demand, and, I think you will admit, a very widespread demand, that there should be a Minister for Public Health. I do not know whether Senators are in favour of this being done or not, but there has been a strong demand and the Government has considered it. The view taken by the Government is that the situation at the present time makes it desirable that we should have this Ministry. There is contemplated a certain reorganisation, a certain extension of the public health services and to supervise this reorganisation and extension and also to administer the services when they have been reorganised, we think a Minister is necessary. I think it is right that I should point out what perhaps some may not realise, that there is a considerable difference between a Parliamentary Secretary and a Minister in matters of this kind. My opinion is that generally it is not a good practice to delegate, as we have done in the matter of public health, to a Parliamentary Secretary powers which almost take him outside the supervision of the Minister. When you do this, the Government as a whole, which has collective responsibility, has no way immediately of dealing with the Parliamentary Secretary. The Parliamentary Secretary is outside; he has in a sense a greater amount of liberty in a situation like that than the Minister. The Minister has to share the collective responsibility and is immediately responsible to the Government. He has to meet direct criticism which he would not probably hear if he were not coming to the Government meetings."

I have rather exceeded the limits which I had anticipated I should put on myself when I proposed to quote from what the Taoiseach said, but I quote the argument to indicate why important functions, such as would attach to a Minister of Health, cannot properly be delegated or handed over to a person who does not share in the collective responsibility that is borne and accepted by all members of the Cabinet.

The decision of the Government, as I have indicated, has been taken after full and mature consideration. I think the extracts from speeches, some made so far back as almost three years ago, indicate that a great deal of attention and very careful examination was given to this matter. If matters had proceeded as then planned, the publication of the White Paper would have preceded the establishment of the Department of Health. Deputies would then have had before them in advance a statement of the need for the new Ministry as well as an outline of the reforms which are proposed in the public health services. While it would not be possible for me, without encroaching very greatly on the time and consideration of the House, to go into the question as fully as the White Paper would have done, I propose at this stage to give a general outline of the circumstances in which reform of the public health service must be undertaken. This review, I trust, will also make it clear that the reform cannot be carried out satisfactorily except under the direction and inspiration of a new Minister, a Minister who will be concerned solely with all matters that directly and immediately affect the health of the individual and the community.

In treating of these matters, however, I should like to emphasise that I shall not attempt to set out in detail the precise proposals by which the reforms are to be effected, for, in regard to those, the new Minister for Health must have the last word with the Government and the first word with the House. I may say, however, that the measures themselves have been the subject of close consideration by the Government, so that very little time will be required by the Minister for Health and his advisers, to review the progress that has already been made and to submit definitive proposals to the Government for acceptance, preparatory to the publication of the White Paper.

Now as to the necessity for the new Department of Public Health. The Local Government Act, 1925, defined the duties of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health in relation to public health. According to that enactment, he was to secure the preparation, effective carrying out and co-ordination of measures conducive to the health of the people, including the prevention and cure of diseases, the treatment of physical and mental defects, the initiation and direction of research and the training of persons for health services. A similar but somewhat wider definition of Ministerial functions in relation to health is included in the Public Health Bill of 1945.

The duties thus imposed upon the Minister for Local Government and Public Health relating to health matters involve Ministerial initiative and supervision in the various fields of activity affecting the health of the community, including the preservation of close contact with the work of county and city medical officers of health, and the direction of the day-to-day administration of the numerous services which deal with special aspects of public health. The detailed public health work which has been supervised heretofore by the existing Department includes the conduct and development of local maternity and child welfare schemes, and the schemes for the medical inspection and treatment of children attending elementary schools. The scope of these schemes will become much wider under that part of the Public Health Bill which proposes to provide comprehensive mother and child health service. The Minister for the existing Department also supervises the provision of free milk and school meals, arrangements for the welfare of blind persons and schemes for the prevention and treatment of venereal diseases. His functions in regard to the tuberculosis service have been greatly extended by recent legislation, while difficult problems relating to medical education and post-graduate training and research, standardisation of foods, control of proprietary remedies, bacteriology and serology are pressing insistently for attention.

Again under the Public Hospitals Act, 1933, the Minister for Local Government and Public Health is charged with responsibility for the allocation of the Hospitals Trust Fund as between local authority institutions, voluntary hospitals and other agencies. He thus finds himself involved in the detailed supervision of the financing of the voluntary hospitals, as well as of the design and erection of new institutions of all types, or of additions to existing structures, in accordance with a planned scheme of hospitalisation.

The Public Assistance Act of 1939 makes the same Minister responsible for the general direction and control of the administration of public assistance in its various forms, namely, home assistance, whether in cash or by way of special allowances in kind; maintenance of aged and chronic infirm persons and other classes in county homes and suchlike institutions and the boarding out of children. Then the same Act also imposes on him most important functions in relation to the medical facilities provided up to the present by way of medical assistance in patients' homes, in dispensaries, in local authority hospitals or in other hospitals approved by him. He must, therefore, closely supervise the work of public assistance authorities and their officers. He has, in this connection, to determine the numbers and types of district institutions to be provided and maintained by local authorities, to decide the continuance or discontinuance of particular institutions and to regulate the classes of patients or inmates to be maintained in each of them. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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