Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 22 Nov 1946

Vol. 103 No. 10

Private Deputies' Business. - Conditions of Sub-Postmasters and Sub-Postmistresses—Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that legislation should be introduced immediately which will improve the pay and prospects of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses and which will entitle them to pension rights on the same basis as other State servants; and, furthermore, is also of opinion that all auxiliary postmen should be put on the established list so as to ensure for them not only reasonable remuneration, but also decent pensions after long and strenuous service to the community. —(Deputies Halliden and Blowick.)

Mr. Flanagan

Sir, as far as the promise given by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to improve the salary scale and conditions of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses throughout the country is concerned, I want to say that a similar promise was made here in this House some two years ago. At that time he told us that he was going to give special consideration to increases in salary and improved conditions and would, at the same time, look into the question of their unestablishment. In the interval nothing has been done. I am one Deputy who is not satisfied with the Minister's promise on this occasion, because I know from experience that he has broken it in the past. The one section of the community which is perhaps the most pauperised to-day is that section which consists of sub-postmasters, sub-postmistresses and auxiliary postmen. It is a disgrace that we should have 2,000 of them in receipt of less than £1 per week. The situation is utterly fantastic when one considers the manner in which the Minister's Department is run, on the one hand, and, on the other, the niggardly scales of pay made to these people. The average wage of these officials is £1 12s. 0d. per week and these officials have neither annual leave nor pension rights. In the case of the unestablished postman, he may travel anything from 40 to 50 miles a day; he has no annual leave; he has no pension rights, and he can be dismissed on one week's notice.

I pointed out in this House on a previous occasion that the principal cause for the bulk of dismissals in the post office was embezzlement on the part of the officials. The reason for that embezzlement is because these people are so badly paid they cannot resist the temptation to help themselves to public funds. They then find themselves in the grip of the law and are dismissed. The root cause of our financial difficulties is due to the Minister's failure to pay them a proper salary. If those officials were in receipt of rates of remuneration which would permit them to live independently and decently and to uphold the dignity of their offices and the position entrusted to them there would not be this high percentage of dismissals for embezzlement.

Mr. Blowick

On a point of order, Sir, am I to understand that the business now before the House must conclude at 12.30?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Half an hour is allotted to it. You have until 20 minutes to one. How much time do you require to conclude?

Mr. Blowick

Fifteen minutes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will call you at 12.25.

Mr. M. O'Reilly

It is two years since I headed a deputation from the postmasters and postmistresses to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. On that occasion I got every encouragement from the Minister and from the officials. The emergency was then on and it was not possible for the Minister to do anything to improve the position at the time, but he fully appreciated the low emoluments of which these officials were in receipt and he promised to do something for them as soon as he possibly could. I am glad to see that he has taken steps now to do so. He has given them conditions which are a vast improvement on their conditions hitherto. One must always, however, remember—and I am sure Clann na Talmhan will remember—that taxation hits the farmers very heavily and the general cry of the farmers to-day is for a cheaper and more efficient administration. The Post Office is a very old system. None of these sub-postmasters or sub-postmistresses is actually dependent on the salary or allowances made by the Minister. Every one of them has some other means of livelihood. I think the proof of that must be that when a post office falls vacant there are several applicants for it. That would hardly be the case if the emoluments were not attractive. Every Deputy in the House knows that when a post office becomes vacant, there are a considerable number of applications for it. There must be a definite attraction there.

I am sorry nothing can be done for the rural postmen. So far as I understand, they are paid on the basis of the wages operating in the district in which they reside. The work is done by private contract system. I know that some of them are in receipt of very low salaries but the hours of work are sometimes very short and they are free to take up work elsewhere. They are not in the same category as sub-postmasters.

I do want to thank the Minister now on behalf of the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses for the way in which he received them on the occasion of the deputation to which I have already referred, and I want to thank him for having done something to improve the position generally.

Mr. Bennett

I would like to support the motion moved by Deputy Blowick. There is, however, one suggestion which I resent very much and that is that the salary scales paid to sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses have subjected them to the temptation of embezzlement. I resent very strongly any mention of the word embezzlement in connection with sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses. If there is one section of the community which gives ample proof of innate honesty, it is the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Little)

That is quite true.

Mr. Bennett

We have been told that there are some 2,400 of them altogether and I think the figure given us by the Minister over a period of three years was something like 30 or 40 dismissed.

Mr. Little

The figure is 40.

Mr. Bennett

That means that only one in a hundred is ever charged with embezzlement. It is most unfair to use the term embezzlement so haphazardly in connection with sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses either in this House or elsewhere.

The last speaker said that there was some attraction in the job of sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress and he endeavoured to prove his point by calling attention to the number of applicants for vacancies. In this unfortunate country if there is a job of any kind at £8 or £10 a year there will be 40 or 50 applicants looking for it in the hope that from a small beginning it will grow into something worth while as the years go by. That is probably the reason why sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses take up these jobs at £30 a year in the hope that they will not always remain at that level. They have had very little help from any previous Minister. I know the present Minister is sympathetic and has offered to give some help. I am sure that if he were able to give the maximum help he would do so. He said the sum available this year was somewhere in the region of £20,000.

Mr. Little

Oh, no. It is in the region of £70,000. £20,000 is a separate sum for additional postal deliveries. The total amount will be £90,000 I hope.

Mr. Bennett

£70,000 will be somewhere in the region of about 17/- per head at a rough calculation.

Mr. Little

It will represent about a 30 per cent increase.

Mr. Bennett

The suggestion is to give something like 13/- or 14/- a week. It is not a tremendous increase, but if that much comes it will be something. I suggest the bulk of that sum should be devoted to the 600 unfortunate people who are living on salaries under £1 a week—some of them considerably under £1. Those people live mostly in the rural areas; there are very few in the cities or urban areas. The underpaid sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses are mostly in the rural areas and it is for these unfortunate people that I make a very strong appeal. The bulk of the increases should be given to the lower paid people.

As regards the auxiliary postmen, I think something should be done, too. Some of them have light work, but a good many of them have very heavy work, and their job amounts almost to a whole-time job. I think they are deserving of some consideration and I suggest that their case should receive the Minister's serious attention.

I wish to congratulate the Minister on one observation he made. When he was comparing the work of postmen to that of agricultural workers he paid a tribute to the agricultural workers. It was the first tribute ever paid to them by a Minister in this House. He referred to the agricultural workers as being highly skilled, competent men. They have always been referred to in Government Orders and elsewhere as unskilled workmen and they were classified on the lowest scale. I am glad to see that this Minister classifies agricultural workers as very highly skilled, technically qualified men, which they are.

I rose mainly to express my sympathy with the motion and I trust that whatever relief the Minister will give, it will be something substantial. An average increase of 13/- to 14/- a week would not be a very great increase and would not very materially alter the circumstances of those people, but at least it will be something.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Dúirt Teachtaí gur conrathóirí na fó-mháistreásaí agus na fó-mháistrí agus bréag- naíodh é sin. Muran conrathóirí anois iad is cosúil gurbh é tráth agus go mbíodh coimhlint ann idir daoine a bhí sásta cúram na n-oifig sin a thógáil orthu féin i ngeall ar an tarraingt tráchtála a bhain leo. San am úd ní raibh an cúigiú cuid ann dá an oiread oibre le déanamh sna post-oifigí is a bhíos le déanamh anois agus d'fhéad an fó-mháistir é féin an obair a dhéanamh chomh maith lena chuid oibre féin.

Anois más siopadóir é caitheann sé duine a fhostú atá oilte ar dhualgais phost-oifige a dhéanamh agus bíonn sé ag braith ar mhacántacht an duine sin agus tá sé freagarthach ina thaobh. Os rud é gur fearr gan siopa agus post-oifig a bheith ar súil ó aon-chúntar gur fearr iad a bheith dealaithe ó chéile, mar gur obair lán-aimsireach í obair post-oifige agus go bhfuil tuarastail níos fearr ceaptha anois do no hoifigigh seo, is é mo thuairim gur fearr feasta tús a thabhairt don duine deachailithe atá inniúil ar an obair agus nach gá on oiread tábhachta a chur ar acfuinn agus staid ó thaobh airgid agus a curtaí go dtí seo. D'fheadfadh sé a bheith riachtanach d'oifigigh den tsórt sin banna urrúis a fháil ar mhaithe leis an Roinn.

Maidir le na fír chúnta pósta, is é mo thuairim nárbh oiriúnach an cheist sin a mheascadh leis an gceann eile. Feicthear dom nach féidir a bhfuil molta sa rún a dhéanamh gan trí ceathrúannaí cuid acu a chur as obair, sé sin, na postanna a dhéanamh lánaimsearach; má deantar na postanna sin inphinsin, cuirfear ruaig ar na fír ar fad, mar ní fhéadfaidis, cé is moite de dhream an-bheag acu, teastas na Stát-Sheirbhíse a bhaint amach. Rud eile dhe, ní dóigh liom, chomh fada is bhaineas leis na ceanntracha iargúlta agus na bailte atá i bhfad ó chéile, seirbhís a riaradh ar mhodh na lánaimsearachta gan baint dá héifeacht. Ní dream iad a bhformhór a bheadh sásta le aistriú go háit ar bith eile. Ach ba mhaith liom focal faoi leith a chur isteach ar son na coda acu a thug seirbhís san Arm agus a bheadh sásta fanacht in áit ar bith a gcuirfí ann iad. Níl mórán acu siúd ann agus is é m'iarratas ar a son siúd go bhfuighidís seans teastas na Stát-Sheirbhíse a bhaint amach.

Ar nós gach Teachta eile, tá fáilte agam roimh ráiteas an Aire agus molaim é as a ucht.

Mr. Blowick

I am not at all satisfied with the Minister's statement. I am satisfied with the portion of it where he said that he will deal with the matter and that he will improve the position of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, but he gave no indication of when this happy event will take place.

Mr. Little

It will begin from the 1st November.

Mr. Blowick

This year?

Mr. Little

New payments begin from the 1st November. It is a decision; it is not a promise.

Mr. Blowick

I am glad to hear that. The Minister has not said a single word about the position of auxiliary postmen. The line he took was that they were quite well paid. He made a comparison between the amount paid to auxiliary postmen and what is paid to agricultural workers. There is no comparison whatever. We have always contended that agricultural workers are not paid as they ought to be. We have pressed to Government again and again to do something to enable the agricultural workers to be paid a proper wage, but the Minister and his colleagues have not responded.

Mr. Little

That is entirely a question for the farmers themselves, for the Deputy's Party.

Mr. Blowick

Of course, it is entirely a matter for the farmers—that is, provided it is put in their power to pay the agricultural workers. Most agricultural workers know that, even meagre as their wages are, the farmers are not in a position to pay more. I will not go any further than that. Time and time again we have advocated an improvement by the Government, but our pleading has fallen on deaf ears.

Deputy Moran said he could not believe his eyes when he saw the names of Deputy Halliden and myself attached to this motion. He then says that at one time we deplore squandermania and at another time we advocate it. I want to tell him very plainly and clearly that we will deplore squandermania always, as we have done in the past. His attitude is that we should save at the expense of the poor, the lowest paid class in the country. That is not our policy nor is it what we stand for. We have advocated again and again that such classes of people as widows and orphans, old age pensioners and those in receipt of salaries but who are underpaid, should have their position improved. If there is a saving to be made, surely it is not on the poor we should save? That is exactly what Deputy Moran is advocating.

Even this very day in the House, we had a defence put up by the Minister for Local Government to the further expenditure, and a whole happy list of the wonderful improvements to follow from the two new Departments. If Deputy Moran were in the House. I have no doubt he would have trooped into the Division Lobby to vote for that expenditure. There are many other motions we have tabled since we came into the House for cutting down expenditure, beginning at the top, so that there may be a more equal distribution of taxation and of the public money. They have been vetoed every single time by Deputy Moran's Party. We want to raise the level of the lower classes and the Government would be well advised to go into that, instead of establishing new Departments, which, despite the assurance of the Minister for Local Government, I believe will cause expansion in expenditure. I do not believe that they will not be costly but I would vote for them if I had the faintest hope it would mean giving improved social conditions.

Deputy Butler says the motion is not an honest one. He did not explain why or how or in what it was dishonest. I do not pay much attention to his vapourings here from time to time—it is seldom he speaks. Short as I have been in the House, I have witnessed the duplicity of that particular Deputy on several occasions, speaking on behalf of the organisation of which he is a member, the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, with his lips in the House and then deliberately voting against their interests when called upon to do so.

Mr. R. Walsh

Is it right that one Deputy should talk about the "duplicity" of another?

Mr. Blowick

I submit that I am perfectly in order in bringing the duplicity of Deputy Butler to the notice of the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think Deputy Blowick is using the word in a political rather than in a moral sense.

General MacEoin

Deputy Butler charged Deputy Blowick with it.

Mr. Coburn

Running with the hare and hunting with the hounds.

Mr. Blowick

When I stood up to speak, I noticed that Deputy Butler was in his seat, but he has now vanished. I would like to say a few more things to him, if he had the courage to remain, but I do not like speaking behind a man's back. I will not pay further attention to this charge of dishonesty. He had an ample chance during the past five or six years to give effect to the fears he expressed for his constituents here in the city, but he did not do so. He is at the age-old game of trying to drive a wedge between the rural population and the urban population, but he will not succeed. He had many chances; he and his Party came to the country, and were very glad to do so, to ask the people to take them out of the mess, when there was a stoppage of fuel and food, at the beginning of the emergency. He now seeks to throw dirty water on the rural community, in spite of what they have done. Not once during the emergency, either before I came into this House or since, did I hear Deputy Butler raise his voice on the question of the wet turf being purveyed through the city, which left the country at £1 a ton but is costing 73/9.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is going away from the postmasters' question now.

Mr. Blowick

The rural postmen should get further consideration. The Minister says that, in the majority of cases, they have land or some other means of livelihood as well. That is perfectly true. The case I put up was that the auxiliary postman has to travel a long distance, about 20 miles a day, and it is not ten miles straight journey there and ten miles back, but jumping on and off a bicycle. It is done in all kinds of weather. In the summer time, they are subject to the heat and in winter time to the rain, storm and snow. On that point, from my own observation, I think they are not equipped with waterproofs for inclement weather, as they should be. I admit that there was a shortage of materials during the emergency and I will not go further than asking the Minister, now that the emergency is over and that waterproof material to make these capes should be more plentiful, to provide capes for the men. That applies also to the bags or satchels in which they carry the mails. I know there have been difficulties over which the Minister had no control, but I trust he will look into the matter and see they are fitted out properly.

The rural postmen have to deliver from house to house, they have to travel in mountainous districts and they return at 3 o'clock in the afternoon after having been out since 7 or 8 o'clock in the morning. I cannot see how they could turn in and do a day's work after that tiresome round, in which they cover every single house. I ask any Deputy who says they can work after all that, to consider if he would employ such a person after having done such work. He would not, as it would not be fair. That is the question shortly and simply. They are entitled to some pension and there should not be a line of distinction drawn between the rural postman and others.

In regard to the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, I would ask the Minister at least to promise to investigate the position and give some allowance to them. It has been said that they have businesses also, but they cannot pay much attention to the business, unless they employ a help to take charge—and that would absorb more than their salary from the Post Office.

The very inefficient telephone service we have at the present time—and again I am not blaming the Minister, as I am fairly certain that, but for the emergency we would have a better telephone service—increases the difficulties of the ordinary rural sub-postmaster or postmistress. You go in for a call and have to wait in a country post office for maybe two hours, as in the case of a call from my district to Dublin. The postmaster cannot leave you and has to stand there and that causes great hardship. I am not grumbling about the delay, as I have been assured by the Minister and his officials that that will be remedied. I put the case for an additional allowance for these officials. There should be a review of the situation of the auxiliary postmen and these postmasters, so that, no matter how small the pension may be, they will get something.

Mr. Flanagan

Could the Minister inform the House what are the proposals which he hopes to make for the improvement of conditions?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has done that already.

Mr. Little

The Deputy has a way of appearing and disappearing like the Cheshire cat. He does not happen to be here on certain occasions.

Mr. Flanagan

You have nothing further to say?

Mr. Little

No.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 28; Níl, 43.

Tá

• Beirne, John.
• Bennett, George C.
• Blowick, Joseph.
• Browne, Patrick.
• Byrne, Alfred.
• Cafferky, Dominick.
• Coburn, James.
• Cogan, Patrick.
• Commons, Bernard.
• Coogan, Eamonn.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Dillon, James M.
• Donnellan, Michael.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Halliden, Patrick J.
• Hughes, James.
• Keating, John.
• MacEoin, Seán.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• O'Donnell, William F.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Sullivan, Martin.
• Pattison, James P.
• Redmond, Bridget M.
• Sheldon, William A. W.

Níl

• Aiken, Frank.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Beegan, Patrick.
• Blaney, Neal.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Bourke, Dan.
• Brennan, Martin.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Kennedy, Michael J.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, James.
• Kissane, Eamon.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick J.
• Loughman, Frank.
• Lydon, Michael F.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Burke, Patrick (County Dublin).
• Butler, Bernard.
• Carter, Thomas.
• Childers, Erskine H.
• Colbert, Michael.
• Colley, Harry.
• Crowley, Honor Mary.
• McCarthy, Seán.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Moylan, Seán.
• O'Grady, Seán.
• O'Loghlen, Peter J.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Rourke, Daniel.
• O'Sullivan, Ted.
• Rice, Bridget M.
• Ryan, James.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Ua Donnchadha, Dómhnall.
• Walsh, Richard.

Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Beirne and Cafferky; Níl: Deputies Ó Cíosáin and Ó Cinnéide.

Motion declared lost