Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 22 Nov 1946

Vol. 103 No. 10

Public Business (Resumed). - Adjournment Debate—Acquisition of Leix Lands.

Mr. Flanagan

On the 13th November, Deputy Davin and myself put down the following Question:—

"To ask the Minister for Lands if he is aware that the owner of the Trench estate, Glenmalyne, Ballybrittas, Leix, agreed, some time ago, to sell the estate to the Land Commission for division among the large number of deserving applicants in the Ballybrittas area; if he will state what action, if any, has since been taken by the Land Commission to acquire the estate; and whether they recently agreed with the owner or his representative to let the lands for a further period of two years.

The Minister in his reply said that the Land Commission had noted this matter for consideration when circumstances would permit, but have not been in communication with the owner or his representatives on the matter. The Minister was unavoidably absent that day — through illness, I believe — and was represented by his colleague, the Minister for Justice, who, in reply to a supplementary question, stated that the Land Commission was too busy to deal with a proposal of this kind. I may point out that the agitation in this case has been going on for a considerable time. On the 3rd October, 1945, the Minister for Lands wrote me as follows:—

"The Minister for Lands wishes me to refer to your representations in connection with the acquisition and division of the lands on the Trench estate, Glenmalyne, Ballybrittas. He has already received very strong representations in this matter and has requested the Land Commission to note the case for investigation when a suitable opportunity arises. As you are aware, however, the emergency restrictions on Land Commission work prevent any action in matters of this nature at present."

On the 27th March, 1946, as a result of further representations in this matter, the Minister wrote:—

"The Minister for Lands wishes me to refer to your representations in connection with the lands on the Trench estate, Glenmalyne, Ballybrittas, and to state that they have been referred to the Land Commission."

Last week it was stated that the Minister was taking no action whatever in this business. This is a case in which there is absolutely no difficulty and I raise it in all sincerity and good faith. I ask the Minister to impress upon the Land Commission the importance of moving in this matter. Here is a huge estate in County Leix, where the owner is anxious to give the land over to the Land Commission. The owner, Mr. Trench, informed me on Tuesday last — and gave me permission to use his name — that he was anxious for the Land Commission to acquire the lands as soon as possible, so that he might dispose of the matter immediately. He is anxious to sell the estate, which is in a very congested area, where there are large numbers of cottage tenants, small holders, landless men, deserving Old I.R.A. applicants and people taking conacre for a number of years. Those who have been taking conacre find that prices are so high now that the more prosperous farmers are competing with them for grazing or tillage.

When the proposal was first made, a deputation of the Deputies of the constituency and local parties interested approached the owner, who had no objection to the Land Commission taking over the place and who agreed to set the lands to the local people until such time as that was done. He was prepared to give the Land Commission every assistance, every help and co-operation, but despite that, nothing has been done and those people cannot get the grass of a cow. The local people know that, if they have to wait a further three or four years, the land will be completely run out by the time they get it and it will take many years to put it right again. This is a case in which the Land Commission would have no difficulty whatever, but is acting as a complete obstacle to the owner and the deserving applicants. We have the Minister for Lands telling us the Department is too busy. Too busy at what? The Land Commission is a big, useless, cumbersome body, which is a barrier to progress instead of being of assistance. I do not blame Deputies for demanding an inquiry into its activities. If there is one institution in this State which needs a thorough investigation, it is the Land Commission.

Mr. Moylan

I cannot hear the Deputy if he continues to hammer on the table.

Mr. Flanagan

If there is one institution in this State which needs investigation into its working, it is the Land Commission. I hope the Minister heard that. It is more of a hindrance to progress than a help. I am sorry I had to have recourse to raising this matter in the House. If I were a Government Deputy, every time I would go to that district I would be hooted and jeered, just as the Fine Gael Deputies were when they were in power, for refusing to carry out land division schemes. Very little interest is being taken in this by the Government Deputies, as they are tied down by Government policy. Nothing is being done in this straightforward case, where people are hungry for land in a most congested district. Some of the applicants are the finest and hardest working young farmers' sons to be found in any county. They are fully equipped with finance, with agricultural implements and live stock, and there is a huge estate at their door, with the owner anxious to place it at their disposal, but the Government is taking no steps to assist them. I ask the Minister, in all sincerity, to ask the Land Commission to give this case special consideration, as there are no difficulties in the wide earthly world to be experienced in regard to it.

I see in the Minister's reply that he says he has not been in touch with the owners or representatives. Was it not a fact that requests came from Deputies representing the constituency and also from the local parties interested, asking him to send down an inspector to make a report on this estate? Furthermore, would he make representations to the owner, so as to come to terms of purchase? If ever a case has been brought forward to prove that the Land Commission is a big, useless body which is a barrier to advancement, this is such a case, as there is a clear indication that its activities are of no credit to the Minister or his Department. I ask him to give this matter his careful consideration and, if my words have been bitter, it comes from all sincerity, from the pressure brought upon me by my constituents, who I believe are entitled to this estate. In the event of its being acquired and allocated to these deserving applicants, I can assure the Minister they will prove themselves worthy of the recognition which the Land Commission gives them and that they will make that land produce food for man and beast in the years ahead.

Mr. Davin

The agitation for the acquisition and division of this estate has been going on for a considerable period. I should like the Minister, when replying, to state the date when representations were first made to the Land Commission to have this estate divided. That would be interesting information to me. It is well over 12 months since the agent of the estate, acting for the owners, advertised in the local papers the sale — not the letting — by public auction, in selected lots, of this estate. Immediately that advertisement appeared, considerable misunderstanding and confusion were caused locally. All the Deputies of the constituency were approached by all classes of people in the area inviting them to get in touch with the Minister for Lands with a view to getting the Land Commission to take immediate steps to have the estate divided. Before doing so, however, I suggested to each of my colleagues that we should approach the owner or agent. A meeting was arranged at which all the available Deputies for the constituency were present. After some discussion, he and his advisers agreed not to proceed with the sale of the lands in the lots already arranged and that, pending a decision by the Land Commission, they would let the lands to the most deserving local applicants. If the lands had been sold, as originally intended, it would have cut across the whole policy of the Land Commission, if that body should decide at a later date to acquire lands of that kind and divide them amongst the most deserving applicants in the area. The owner's idea of an economic holding would be entirely different from that of the Minister and his advisers in the Land Commission.

The Deputies subsequently approached the Minister and submitted the case as one requiring immediate action on the part of the Land Commission. This was one of the few cases, in my 24 or 25 years' experience of land owners in the constituency, in which the owner agreed to hand the estate over to the Land Commission for division if they were agreeable to take it. I dare say the owner is not willing to hand over the estate on the terms offered by the Land Commission. Naturally, he would expect a certain price. There might be a difference on that question between the Land Commission and the owner but there is a way of settling that difference.

It was easy for the Land Commission to proceed in this case, because there was agreement on the part of the owner to sell. The only thing that can have cropped up is the question of the price to be paid by the Commission. I want to know from the Minister what the circumstances are which prevented him and the commissioners from having these lands acquired. In reply to a Parliamentary Question on the 13th November, the Minister said: "The representations made to the Land Commission have been noted for consideration when circumstances permit." Am I to understand that, up to the present, the circumstances have not been sufficiently favourable to permit the commissioners to go in and take preliminary steps to have these lands acquired and divided? I ask the Minister for an answer to these questions, because they are reasonable. I want to know whether the Minister has asked for, or received, any report from any of the local inspectors on the desirability of having the lands acquired or on the question of congestion in the area. If such a report has been submitted for the consideration of the commissioners, has there been any provisional decision to acquire or not to acquire these lands?

Deputy Flanagan, who was evidently speaking to the owner of the estate during the past week, indicated that the owner was anxious to have information one way or the other on this matter. So are the local people. The owner is entitled to information as to whether or not the Land Commission intends at any time to acquire these lands. If the Land Commission say: "No," the owner will be a free agent as to whether he will dispose of his lands by sale or letting. He is, at least, entitled to that information so as not to have this matter hanging over his head for an indefinite period. In a case where the landowner agrees to sell, is it not fairly easy to take preliminary steps for acquisition and division? I have a fairly intimate knowledge of this area and I agree that there is a very large amount of congestion in it. Long before the compulsory tillage regulations were thought of, the people of this area tilled a larger proportion of their land than the same number of people in any other parish.

If the acreage available in this case had been divided prior to the emergency amongst the most deserving smallholders, cottage tenants and others in the area, there would have been more land under tillage than there has been up to the present. Like other land owners, the present owner tills only what he is compelled to till. If the people of the locality, who have a tillage tradition, had these lands in their possession, there is no doubt that the acreage under wheat, beet and other such crops would be considerably increased. This is a part of my constituency which helped to build up the first beet factory and there would be much more land under beet if the estate were divided.

I hope the Minister is not of opinion that he is being asked to do anything unreasonable. If this were a case in which the land owner — and this was the position in almost all those cases in my constituency — would go through every line of the Land Act and take advantage of every loophole to obstruct the commissioners in their project to acquire lands, it would be different. But here is a case in which there is an offer to sell. The only thing in question as regards the acquisition and division of the lands is the Commission's desire to act and their willingness to have a fair price fixed by the body set up to settle differences of that kind between the commissioners and land owners. I have not been speaking to the owner but I met the agent, in the company of my colleagues, and he adopted a reasonable and straightforward attitude. The Minister has information to that effect on his files. I hope that the Minister will use the machinery of the Land Commission, which is now fairly well oiled, to speed up the acquisition and division of this very large estate.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Moylan)

Deputy Flanagan informed the House that he was sorry to have to bring this case before the Dáil. I think that he was delighted to get an opportunity of speaking on the matter. I said in a previous discussion on the Adjournment that the justification for raising matters in that way is the inadequacy of the answer to a Parliamentary Question. I have talked over this matter with Deputies and answered questions in the House and I think that they should be fully informed in regard to the matter.

The fact that a man desires to sell his land to the Land Commission, and that there are people anxious to acquire it through the machinery of the Land Commission, is no sound reason why the Land Commission should immediately move to acquire that land and divide it. I answered a question from Deputy Cosgrave yesterday, in relation to the matter of restrictions on the acquisition of land, by saying that I was not in a position to indicate when the Land Commission would be able to resume generally the work of acquisition of land outside the congested districts. I believe that the main concern of the Land Commission should be the congested districts. While I do not approve by any means of the tactics adopted by certain members of the Clann na Talmhan Party, I do realise that the evil which they discussed here is an evil that does exist and that every effort must be made to remedy that evil, irrespective of the wrong things done by people who advocate that remedy.

The Land Commission is trying to concentrate on and trying to do everything it can in, the congested districts, but, irrespective of the condemnation of Deputy Flanagan of the Land Commission, even if I were not Minister for Lands, I would entirely disagree with the viewpoint he has expressed. The Land Commission might be regarded as the oldest Department of all the Departments. It is the Department which has most to do with rural life. It is from that point of view that the Department has created conditions for the farmers which, in spite of everything that has been said, have been of immense benefit to the farmer. The longer I have been in the Land Commission and the more I have examined its workings, the more I am convinced of the immense amount of experience gained and the wisdom of the working of the Land Commission arising out of that experience.

Some Deputies raised a question here recently in regard to an estate in County Mayo where a demand was made for Land Commission action in regard to an estate put up for sale and sold. When representations were made about that estate in a very badly congested area, immediate steps were taken by the Land Commission to investigate the matter and nothing that has happened since need stop the Land Commission from taking action.

In an area where vile congestion exists, it is the duty of the Land Commission to take action. I have rather conservative ideas, even though on one occasion in this House Deputy Flanagan charged me with being a lawbreaker. I opposed alien control of this country because I believed it was bad for the people of the country and was not the will of the people of the country, but I do believe that the law passed by the Dáil, justly and fairly administered, is the best protection for the people and the best method of securing progress for the people's benefit. One of the things that must be preserved is a man's right to the property he owns. It must be preserved; we cannot get away from that, and where a man puts his farm up for sale, no matter what action the Land Commission may take at any time afterwards, it cannot go right in and say to that man: "You must not sell your property in the open market." That is confiscation, a thing we cannot tolerate in this country, a thing that would be bad for every single one of us.

Certain charges were made in regard to the farm in County Mayo and again in relation to this farm, but it is not because a man who owns land is willing to sell it, or because a number of people desire to get that land through the operations of the Land Commission, that the Land Commission must take immediate steps to oblige both parties. Mind you, Deputy Davin is a trade unionist and knows the value of trade unionism.

Mr. Davin

For 40 years.

Mr. Moylan

He knows the conditions that existed here in 1913 and he perhaps remembers a letter written by A.E. to the Irish Times on, I think, the 7th October, 1913. Sometimes I wonder if some of the terms of that letter are not applicable to the conditions of to-day. Then I wonder to whom are they applicable. Deputy Davin ought to know the value of law, order and discipline.

Mr. Flanagan

On a point of order, may I inquire what has all this to do with the proposed acquisition of the lands of Glenmalyne? There is no question here of whether Deputy Davin was or was not a trade unionist.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is quite in order. The Minister is dealing with the principle underlying the acquisition of estates.

Mr. Flanagan

I think the Minister should try to deal with the question of the acquisition of the lands of Glenmalyne.

Mr. Moylan

What is wrong with Deputy Flanagan is his divine impatience.

Mr. Flanagan

I am calling for information.

Mr. Moylan

If Deputy Flanagan were patient with me, both in regard to the farm of which he speaks and in regard to the speech I am making, we might clarify the atmosphere.

Mr. Flanagan

I shall be patient then.

Mr. Moylan

Deputy Davin said in his speech that after some discussion with the owner of the land, the owner decided to sell. Discussion! What kind was the discussion?

Mr. Davin

Friendly.

Mr. Moylan

Was it anything like the case in County Mayo? Was the owner of the land persuaded that because of some agitation in the locality, it would be impossible for him to use it or to sell it? Was there anything done by way of threat to make him consent to the sale of the land? So long as there is a threat made by anyone, the Land Commission will not take action.

The Dáil adjourned at 2.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 27th November, 1946.