Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Feb 1947

Vol. 104 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 75—Office of the Minister for Social Welfare.

Dr. Ryan

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £400 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1947, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare.

It will be noticed that the Estimate contains a note to the effect that the Votes for widows' and orphans' pensions and national health insurance for 1946/47 will be accounted for by the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare, and not by the Office of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, as appeared on the face of the existing Estimate for those services. When the Estimate now before the House was being prepared, it was contemplated that in the case of the remaining services transferred to the Department of Social Welfare for which provision for 1946-47 was made in self-contained Votes, that is to say: Old Age Pensions (Vote 7), Children's Allowances (Vote 57), Unemployment Insurance and Assistance (Vote 59) and Food Allowances (Vote 68), the Votes would continue to be accounted for up to the end of 1946-47 by the existing accounting offices. On further consideration it is felt that accounting arrangements for the four Votes in question should be the same as is proposed for widows' and orphans' pensions and national health insurance, and this opportunity is being taken of bringing the matter to the notice of the House to secure its approval of the arrangement.

General Mulcahy

There are just two points I should like to raise. On January 22nd, I asked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health a question with regard to certain classes of people who came under the national health insurance scheme because their salaries or wages were not more than £250 per annum, but who, by reason of increases granted simply for the purpose of meeting the cost of living, have been brought outside that scheme. I asked him whether any steps would be taken to retain them inside the scheme, and his answer implied no, but that they have it in their own power to continue to be entitled to benefit by electing to exercise their right to make voluntary contributions. I submitted that it is inequitable in the circumstances of to-day that people whose standard of living, instead of being raised, has actually been depressed, even though they are in receipt of recently granted increases, should be withdrawn out of that scheme. I suggest that it is imperative that legislation should be introduced at once to raise the ceiling of salaries or wages so as to retain a substantial number of these people inside the scheme. That is the first point.

The second point is that the Minister said the payments under the national health insurance scheme and the widows' and orphans' scheme are not intended to be made on a scale which would make people as well off as they were before they required the assistance of these payments. That is understood. However, I submit that these payments are intended to be such as will enable body and soul to be kept together. I asked the Minister whether it is the intention of his Department to examine the question of the necessaries of life with a view to establishing basic scales of diet for various people so that Parliament and the Minister will have a yard-stick by which they can measure whether the allowances under these various Acts are sufficient to enable body and soul to be kept together in the case of people getting these payments.

Mr. Blowick

I put a question to the Minister to-day, but I must confess that I am still rather hazy about the matter. I should like to ask the Minister whether the new Department of Social Welfare is responsible for the employment and unemployment schemes which were dealt with by the Department of Industry and Commerce in Lord Edward Street. The reason I put down the question was that in almost every parish in Mayo there is quite a number of young men in search of work. These young men would rather get work at home even at a lower wage than is available in England. That applied even before there was a food problem there. Very few of them wish to leave their country if they could get a reasonable wage at home. The point I want to put to the Minister is that recently agricultural and turf work closed down completely for a lot of these young men. On 22nd January, in reply to a question of a Deputy, the Minister for Industry and Commerce informed the House that 29,000 persons had emigrated to England during the last 12 months. It is quite obvious, of course, that Bord na Móna will need a certain number of skilled workers for turf production. The food production drive will also need a certain number of agricultural workers. What I want to know from the Minister is whether turf production and food production were affected by shortage of labour owing to the emigration of these 29,000 persons last year.

The Minister, of course, should keep as many people at home as is necessary to deal adequately with both turf and food production, because they are vital matters. But I cannot see any sense in keeping at home three or four or five times as many people as there is work for. These people are anxious to make the best of their youth. Most of the holdings in the West are small and there is no hope of sub-division there. The only chance for these people to make use of their youth is to earn sufficient money abroad to enable them to come home in later years and buy a place or marry into a place and settle down. That has been the custom for a very long time. We had hoped to see an end to that, but there is no end to it in sight yet.

I therefore ask the Minister to ease the ban on emigration in most areas, to keep as many at home as are needed for the two major problems of turf and food production in the national interest, but not to keep four times as many at home as we have work for. If the Turf Board needs 4,000 or 5,000 men, which I understand is the number required, and food production requires another 4,000 or 5,000, keep them at home by all means, but do not penalise the others who wish to leave the country for work abroad. I know several of these young men who have been refused permits and who feel that two or three years of their lives have been wasted. I made application for permits on several occasions for some of these young men. I am not blaming the Minister, because he has only taken over that section of the Department, but I cannot understand why some young men in a particular parish or division are refused permits, while young men in neighbouring parishes in similar circumstances are allowed to emigrate.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

The Minister has more or less anticipated the discussion that might have taken place on this Estimate, although a number of Deputies who intervened on the last Estimate confined themselves to that Estimate exclusively. On the last Estimate the Minister explained his attitude towards social services generally. He made the positive statement that it is not possible for him at this stage to indicate what shape the social services may take in the future. As he is only three weeks in charge of the new Department, his explanation that he needs time to consider a matter of this kind is reasonable. May I put this to him, however? Apart from what might be termed his long-term policy, has he not satisfied himself that in present conditions there is an urgent need for an immediate increase so far as certain beneficiaries from public funds are concerned? In that respect, there will be unanimous agreement that individuals like old age pensioners and widows and orphans should have prior consideration. There is something more in my statement than perhaps may appear to the Minister. I have personal knowledge that a number of public boards are refraining from giving any increases to their pensioned staffs because they are awaiting a lead from the Government.

In that respect, in view of all the circumstances, particularly the cost of living, it is almost incomprehensible that the Government have not given us a statement of policy on that particular aspect of their administration. It is obvious that there are very large numbers of these people on the verge of want, if not close to destitution. Therefore, I suggest to the Minister, on the inauguration of this new Department, that he could not do better than to examine the possibilities of an early increase so far as the particular classes that I have enumerated are concerned.

Dr. Ryan

With regard to Deputy Mulcahy's question, although the people who were earning less than £5 a week and are now in receipt of more than £5 are no longer bound to remain in the national health insurance scheme, it will require legislation to get that right, and I intend to bring in a short Bill on that matter as soon as possible.

General Mulcahy

It could be done in a quarter of an hour.

Dr. Ryan

I suppose it could. It is not easy to get these things done. Deputy Mulcahy also raised the question of the standard of nutrition. I explained, when replying to the other debate, that some investigation is proceeding regarding nutrition, to see what the state of nutrition is over a sample area and find the proper standard at which we should aim.

General Mulcahy

Is not that rather a scientific examination?

Dr. Ryan

It is rather scientific, yes.

General Mulcahy

What we want is a quick humanitarian one, confined to certain standard food.

Dr. Ryan

It will have to be coordinated with economics also. The Department of Social Welfare is responsible for the administration of the employment exchanges. That is, my Department will carry out whatever policy is laid down. Deputy Blowick will agree, I am sure, that it is Ministers like the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Agriculture who are more concerned with the policy that will be pursued with regard to exist permits, and so on, and all I can promise is to carry out the policy as laid down by the Government and that policy, as I explained to Deputy Blowick to-day, is the same for agricultural workers, turf workers—all male workers—that is, that they will get a permit to leave the country unless they are in a job or there is a job waiting for them or a job coming off where a certain number of workers are required. I could not say, with regard to the number that emigrated last year, whether that had any effect on turf work or agricultural work or not. We all heard individual farmers complaining that they could hardly get men during harvest time, and I think the complaint was made also that there were not altogether enough workers on turf production but I wanted to find out from Deputy Blowick, and I am not yet clear, if he has in mind migratory workers.

Mr. Blowick

No. I am sorry if I have not been clear enough on that. I do not mean the workers from what are known as migratory areas because workers from such areas, on production of an offer of employment from a farmer in England, can get a permit easily enough. The workers I refer to are those precluded by the ban from travelling. These are the workers in respect of whom I want the Minister to relax the ban.

Dr. Ryan

All I can do is to inquire with regard to the spirit of administration, if you like. But what the officials who are administering this matter are told is, if the man is in a job, if he leaves the job to emigrate, do not give him a permit or, if he is offered a job, do not give him a permit; otherwise he gets it. Those are their instructions.

Mr. Blowick

That is not what is actually happening.

Dr. Ryan

I must inquire into it further.

Mr. Halliden

Must the worker be registered as unemployed?

Dr. Ryan

He must, of course, show that he is unemployed.

Mr. Blowick

There again, I am referring to farmers' sons, who have never registered.

Dr. Ryan

That does not matter.

Mr. Blowick

They are precluded.

Dr. Ryan

It does not matter about being registered before. The only other point is that raised by Deputy O'Sullivan. I am afraid I cannot add to what I said before. We are examining the whole scheme of social services. That is why I was put in charge of that Department, to examine the whole thing and see what recommendations I could make. We are having that done. I could not say at the moment what it is hoped to do. I hope to be able to say to the Dáil before it adjourns for Easter what could be done, and when, but that is all I can promise at the moment.

Mr. Blowick

May I indicate one other class, that is, workers who are employed on turf all the summer and whose work terminates as a rule about the month of September? They are idle until the turf season commences in the following March. I would ask the Minister to relax the ban in respect of these workers so that they would not be compelled to spend the winter in idleness.

Dr. Ryan

I will inquire about those also.

Vote put and agreed to.

Votes Nos. 74 and 75 reported and agreed to.