Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Feb 1947

Vol. 104 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Gaeltacht Services.

An tAire Tailte (Seán Ó Maoláin)

Tairgim:—

Go ndeonfar suim breise nach mó na £48,345 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú Márta, 1947, chun Tuarastal agus Costas i dtaobh Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta, lena n-áirítear Deontais um Thógáil Tithe agus ceannach agus díol Bréidíní Baile.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £48,345 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1947, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Gaeltacht Services, including Housing Grants and the purchase and sale of Homespuns.

Tá dathad-a-hocht míle, trí chéad agus dathad-a-cúig punt ag teastáil faoin meastachán seo le haghaidh obair Fho-Roinne Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta don bhliain seo. Le fírinne, tá nóchahocht míle, céad agus seasca-cúig punt ar fad ag teastáil chun an méid a caithfear thar mar a bhí sa bhunmheastachán a shlánú, ach téann ina choinne sin dathad-a-cúig míle, sé chéad agus tríocha-cuig punt breise a baileofar agus ceithre mhíle, céad agus ochtó-cúig punt a sábhálfar ar mhírchinn áirithe den Vóta.

Baineann seasca míle, seacht gcéad agus caoga punt den chaiteachas ar fad le habhair do na tionscail fiteacháin agus bréagáin; fiche-haon míle agus cheithre chéad punt le hairgead bhreise le haghaidh bréidín baile a cheannach; sé mhíle seacht gcéad agus ochtó punt le costais a bhainfidh le tionscal nua na ndeilbhíní luaidhe; cúig mhíle, céad agus ochtó punt le hinnealra a thuitfidh le n-íoc as i mbliana; agus an chuid eile le cúrsaí taistil agus costais eile na Fo-Roinne.

Tá míle punt ag teastáil faoi mhírcheann D. 4 do Thaisteal. Tharla go raibh sé riachtanach ar mhaithe le cúrsaí táirgeachta i bhfad níos mó cuairteanna a thabhairt ar na hionaid tionscail ná a céad-mheasadh ba ghá.

Tá cúig mhíle, céad agus ochtó punt breise ag teastáil faoi mhírcheann D. 5. Is amhlaidh nár cuireadh sa bhunmheastachán ach soláthar comhartha don innealra shníomhacháin a bhí ar ordú don mhuileann i gCill Chártha toisc ná raibh aon eolas cinnte i dtaobh cathain a seachadfaí é. Meastar anois go dtiocfaidh cuid de le bheith iníoctha, ina leith, an bhliain seo, agus sin é is mó faoi ndear an soláthar atá dá dhéanamh.

Tá dathad-a-cúig míle punt breise ag teastáil faoi mhírcheann D. 6. le haghaidh abhar do na tionscail fiteacháin a ceannaíodh agus a thiocfaidh chun bheith íoctha astu an bhliain seo. Baineann an chuid is mó den mhéid sin le habhair a hordaíodh don tionscal bhréidín láimhfhite ach tharla gur cuireadh moill ar sheachadadh na n-abhar agus dá bhrí sin níor tháinig an méadú ar dhíolacháin agus ar fháltais airgid a rabhmar ag súil leis.

Tá cúig mhíle déag, seacht gcéad agus caoga punt breise ag teastáil faoi mhírcheann D. 8. le haghaidh abhar don tionscal bréagán. Meastar go mbeidh méadú dá réir ar na fáltais airgid a gheobhfar as an dtionscal seo.

Tá fiche-haon míle agus cheithre chéad punt breise ag teastáil faoi mhírcheann D. 10. le haghaidh bréidín baile a cheannach. Níor tharla an lagú ar an dtáirgeacht ná ar an éileamh a ceapadh a tharlódh agus an bun-mheas-tachán á ullmhú; sin é faoi ndear soláthar breise a bheith ag teastáil anseo. Meastar go mbeidh méadú dá réir ar na fáltais airgid.

Tá sé chéad agus caoga punt breise ag teastáil faoi mhírcheann D. 11. le haghaidh soláthairtí d'obair bréidín do dhathú agus do chríochnú i gCill Chártha.

Tá sé mhíle, seacht gcéad agus ochtó punt ag teastáil faoi mhírcheann nua, D. 12., le haghaidh an tionscail deilbhíní luaidhe atáimid tar éis a bhunú i gConamara. Níor tosnaíodh ar an dtionscal seo ach le déanaí agus tá sé ró-luath go fóill a rá conas a éireóidh leis.

Tá dhá mhíle, cheithre chéad agus cúig phunt breise ag teastáil faoi mhírcheann F. 3. le haghaidh iolchostas an Taise-Ionaid. Baineann an méid sin le habhair pacála, le costas iompair, le trucail nua a cheannach agus le costais taistil na foirne.

Ina gcoinne sin ar fad, meastar go mbeidh na méaduithe seo leanas ar na fáltais airgid a gheobhfar faoi mhírcheann I.—dathad-a-ceathair míle agus caoga-seacht punt as díolacháin na dtionscal tuaithe; míle agus naoi gcéad punt as díolacháin ceilpe agus feamaine, agus sé chéad punt, faoi fháltais ilghnéithe, as cúiteamh a fuarthas in abhair a loiteadh. Meastar go mbeidh easnamh de naoi gcéad agus fiche-dó punt ar a bhfaighfear as díolacháin cairrgín, agus fágann san gur dathad-a-cúig míle, sé chéad agus triocha-cúig punt breise a gheobhfar mar Leithreasa-i-gCabhair.

Meastar go mbeidh sábháltais de cheithre mhíle, céad agus ochtó-cúig púnt ar na mírchinn D. 9.—Sníomhachán agus H. 3.—Deontais faoi Achta na dTithe (Gaeltacht). Tar éis an méid sin agus na Leithreasa-i-gCabhair a bhaint den mhór-chaiteachas bhreise, fágtar gur dathad-a-hocht míle, trí chéad agus dathad-a-cúig punt atá ag teastáil anois.

Tuigfear ón meastachán seo go bhfuilimid ag déanamh gach beart is féidir chun abhair a choimeád leis na tionscail seo atá dá seoladh ar mhaithe le muintir na Gaeltachta.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

An feidir leis an Aire insint duinn cén áit i gConamara in a mbeidh an tionscal deilbhíní?

Seán Ó Maoláin

Timpeall an Spidéil.

General Mulcahy

It is true, as the Minister has said, that he is doing his best to see that the necessary raw materials and other materials are supplied to the industries that are being run in the Gaeltacht. I should like to ask him about one aspect of the matter. On the 20th November last. I asked him what were the districts which, for the purpose of his Department, were regarded as the Irish-speaking districts. He indicated in his reply that the Irish-speaking districts, so far as his Department were concerned, were those enumerated in the schedule to the Housing (Gaeltacht) Act, 1929, with the newly established colonies in County Meath. Continuing his reply, he said:—

"Mainly through historical causes, the scheduled Gaeltacht districts present special economic and social problems, the alleviation of which necessitates measures not applicable to the rest of the country. The need for such differentiation has for long been acknowledged, as is evidenced by the activities of the former Congested Districts Board, whose work in the fostering of employment and the improvement of housing and general conditions has been continued and expanded by the branch of my Department dealing specially with the Irish-speaking districts, viz. Serbhísí na Gaeltachta, and the Land Commission."

I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether, in carrying on Gaeltacht Services now, attention is paid rather to the fact that there are districts there with special economic and social problems than to the fact that there are special districts which are supposed to be Irish speaking. It is desirable that we should get clear as to why Gaeltacht Services are being carried on. If they are being carried on simply in relation to special economic and social problems in certain parts of the country, we ought to be clear about that. If they are being carried on because there are special districts which are regarded as Irish spealing and the economy of which it is deired to strengthen in order that they may retain their normal use of the language and that the language may be continued there as the ordinary vernaular of the people without being disturbed by economic difficulties which would require those people to look outside for the purpose of earning their livelihood, then we should be clear about that.

I rase the question because it has been definitely indicated by the Department of Education that there are certain districts covered by the Minister's operations under Gaeltacht Services where Irish is fading out and wasting away. That has been declared in respect of certain districts in Kerry. Mayo and Donegal—that the Irish language is no longer substantially the language of the homes in those areas. I want to know whether the Minister, in the administration of Gaeltacht Services, is required, inside his responsibilities, to take cognisance in any way of whether Irish is being spoken or used in the district which he is administering. I raised previously the question of Dunquin area and I have been raising very recently, in a way which has disturbed the Ceann Comhairle very much on a number of occasions, the position of the population on the Blasket Islands. I hope there will be a suitable opportunity of driving some of those facts home with a view to getting proper recognition of them and proper decisions in relation to them. The question which I want to concentrate on now is: has the Minister for Lands, in the administration of the moneys voted for Gaeltacht Services, any responsibility for ascertaining whether the Irish language is, in fact, being used at all in the areas in which these services are being administered? If he has all the machinery, does he use it for ascertaining that and has he found in some of these areas facts such as the Minister for Education says he finds in some of these districts? When he finds these facts about the language wasting away and being less used, does his Department do anything to arrest that wastage or does his Department take any cognisance of it in any way? I should like to ask further whether this administration takes place entirely in respect to social and economic weaknesses or whether it takes place also in relation to conditions affecting the use of the Irish language as the ordinary language in these districts.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

I should like to ask the Minister what was the stock in hands at the close of the year in the Central Marketing Depôt as opposed to the stock on hands during the previous year. I do not see why some attempt should not be made, theoretically at any rate, to regard this Estimate as coming within the scope of an ordinary business in which the Central Marketing Depôt distributes the goods as a sales organisation for a number of scattered industries throughout the Gaeltacht which require help and guidance. I think the sooner we approach the matter in that way the better. A number of years ago, I think, there was a feeling that the goods in the Central Marketing Depôt were out of date, and I can recall the Parliamentary Secretary of the time telling us that ties had to be sold at 1d. apiece. If Deputies here each year could ascertain the amount of goods in stock, some check would be kept to ascertain whether goods were being manufactured and sold as desirable commodities or whether they were being merely planked into an increasingly large store, people being paid to look after them, when it would really pay the Department to throw them out. I notice, for instance, that there is an increase in the item for packing materials, stationery, freight and postage. Surely one would think that at the present time, when practically any garments that are being made can be sold quite easily, something near the cost of manufacture could be recovered from the sale of these goods? I am not saying that the parts of this industry that cannot be made to pay should be closed down, but the idea should always be kept in mind that you are educating people in the Gaeltacht for the purpose of enabling them to make goods that are attractive and in keeping with modern fashions. There is no use in manufacturing articles of clothing which people have ceased wearing. That is the point I wish to make and one of the best methods of achieving that from year to year would be to know what the stock in the central depôt was each year. I ask the Minister to tell us that when he is replying.

Mr. Murphy

I would ask the Minister when he is replying to give some indication of the present position in regard to Gaeltacht housing. I remember that very excellent work was done in the earlier stages in connection with housing in the Gaeltacht, but that seems to have become more or less a memory for a number of years. I am rather reluctant to accept the explanation that that state of affairs is altogether due to emergency conditions. There is, in fact, no life in this side of the service—Gaeltacht housing.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no money provided for it in this Vote.

Mr. Murphy

I know that, Sir, but may I call attention to the fact that it is a Vote for Gaeltacht Services, including housing grants?

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no money for housing in this Vote.

Mr. Murphy

With all respect, having regard to that qualification, I think I am entitled to refer to it. What I am complaining about is that nothing is being done as regards housing in the Gaeltacht, as far as I can see.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no money for it here.

Mr. Murphy

That is my complaint.

An Ceann Comhairle

The complaint would be in order on the main Vote but this is a Supplementary Vote for a specific purpose.

Mr. Murphy

Then I can return to it later, but I think it is a very strict ruling, with all respect.

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps I should make myself clear on that. It has been the established rule for over 20 years that, on a Supplementary Estimate, discussion is confined strictly to the terms of the Estimate—what the money is required for.

Mr. Murphy

The reins seem to be drawn very tightly occasionaly. I submit that for many years there has been a general practice of the Estimates not to tie a person down to the strict letter of an Estimate and to allow a passing reference to other matters which he desires to mention. That is all I intended to make, a passing reference. If you rule that I am not entitled to do that, I accept it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Did the Deputy not make his passing reference?

Mr. Murphy

I dissent from your ruling and I object to it. I am not entitled to say any more than that now.

An Ceann Comhairle

Very good.

Mr. Moylan

One important way to try to strengthen the Irish language in the Gaeltacht, in my view, is to endeavour to remove social and economic disabilities. While what I said on the 20th November to Deputy Mulcahy still remains perfectly correct, I have been wondering if the Deputy was suggesting that, if the Irish language does lessen in its use in any particular district, Gaeltacht Services should not continue to operate in that particular district.

General Mulcahy

The Minister must be perfectly clear that I made no such suggestion.

Mr. Moylan

I just want to be quite clear on it. We have a district, which was possibly designed many years ago under the chairmanship of the Deputy in the Inquiry into the Gaeltacht, which still remains our area of operation and, even if the conditions did not remain the same, I think it would be unwise to remove factories that have been for a long time established in any particular area.

It is a responsibility of every Department and every Deputy, of course, to try to be helpful in the development of the Irish language and its retention in the Gaeltacht, but this Department has not any specific responsibility in regard to that. We have the responsibility of employing, as far as possible, no employees, or officers controlling those employees, who are not fully conversant with Irish and do not utilise it as their every-day language. We do that. Sometimes, in a very odd case, it is not possible to fill a particular post with an Irish speaker, but whenever we have any employees in any particular post they are 99½ per cent. Irish speakers.

I did not quite understand Deputy Dockrell's point. The development of industries in the Gaeltacht, while it is a business and is operated as far as possible on business principles, is altogether different from an ordinary business in Dublin City. It was something that had to be done in which commercial people had no interest. It was quite natural to suppose that, when the work was started, mistakes were made and, even if no mistakes were made, dress materials of various kinds go quickly out of fashion. I can assure the Deputy now that the Gaeltacht Services are so organised that there is no material that is likely to be sold at a lesser cost than the cost of its production. We have not been in the position of having to sell any of our production at a loss in recent years. That possibly did obtain when the organisation started first, but it does not operate now.

The amount of the original Estimate was roughly £14,000, yet the amount spent by the Department is roughly £350,000. All this comes in by way of sales of material which we produce. Very valuable service is given to the people in the Gaeltacht, a social and economic service and a service that is bound to be very valuable in the retention of the Irish language in those areas, at very little cost to the State. Therefore, I recommend this Estimate to the House.

I regret, a Chinn Chomhairle, your ruling in regard to Deputy Murphy's reference to Gaeltacht housing, as I was most anxious to know what exactly the criticism of Gaeltacht housing was, apart from any other type of housing in the country.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

Would the Minister answer my question about the value of the stock at the central depôt?

Mr. Moylan

I cannot answer that at the moment, but I will have it in mind when the main Estimate for the coming year will be put before the House and I will give him full particulars.

Vote put and agreed to.