Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 May 1947

Vol. 105 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 62—Wireless Broadcasting (Resumed).

Mr. Briscoe

I have listened with some attention to the introduction of this Estimate by the Minister. While his introductory statement was brief, it indicated the steps that are now being taken by the Department with a view to further progress in broadcasting both at home and for listeners abroad. I am glad that this short-wave station has been taken in hands, because it is within my knowledge, from travels I have made, that many of our people in America and elsewhere are anxious to listen in to the Irish broadcasting station. That was almost impossible up to the present because of the particular wavelength we have.

During the brief debate we have had here, reference was made to the programme which is put over for the benefit of listeners at home, and, to a certain extent, of listeners across the water. It is very difficult to cater for all the different types of listeners, and to ensure that everybody will be satisfied with a particular item. I have heard very many people express great interest in the feature called "Question Time", but I have heard the complaint made by some people that the time at which that feature is broadcast is rather too late, because a great number of people listen to and enjoy "Question Time" and, in fact, participate to a great extent in the competition by endeavouring to answer the questions before the competitors. It is only a very minor complaint, but the Minister might consider altering the time to a more suitable hour, so that young people can enjoy this feature.

Other speakers, and particularly Deputy Morrissey, seemed to find fault with the increase in the hours of broadcasting devoted to classical music, and Deputy Morrissey, speaking with a knowledge of rural Ireland, seemed to suggest that the people were not concerned to any great extent with this type of music. It is, as I say, impossible to cater satisfactorily for everybody and to ensure that there will be unanimous acceptance of everything coming over the radio. I can assure the Minister that the care he has given to the matter of improving the standard of music and the improved programmes generally which he has helped to bring about have been received with great satisfaction certainly by listeners in the Dublin area. It is not my intention, because I am not competent to do so, to suggest to him what types of programmes he should ask his officers to insist on and I do not intend to go into the question of how news is broadcast—whether it is good or bad—but as a listener, many of whose friends and constituents are also listeners, I know that, in comparison with the radio stations adjacent to us in Northern Ireland and Great Britain, we can be justly proud that our radio station is holding its own both in the matter of the type of programme and the quality of the programme put over.

There is one other point which I think may concern the technicians of the Minister's Department. I have had many complaints that in certain parts of Dublin the operation of certain types of machinery installed by business undertakings interferes with reception, and I am sure the Minister has had brought to his notice letters which appeared in the Press pointing out, with particular reference to the Ballsbridge district, that there is very severe interference from time to time. I do not know whether the Minister can do anything about it—whether he has powers or could get powers to compel these undertakings to take such measures as will obviate the oscillation which takes place—but I think he might look into the point. During the war years, we had a situation in which it was impossible to improve the machinery or implements of broadcasting, because of the impossibility of obtaining new machinery and spare parts, and I recognise, that during those years, the conventions with regard to wave-lengths were not strictly adhered to by the European nations in particular, because of war conditions or because it was not their policy to do so; but now that we are reaching a stage where it is possible to get improved equipment, the Minister ought to make sure that whatever equipment he gets will be the most up to date and the best available. I understand that there is now very keen competition between the firms in various countries producing broadcasting equipment so that we ought to be able to make a choice.

Having followed the progress of this broadcasting station almost since its inception and having listened to the statements of every Minister and Parliamentary Secretary responsible for introducing the Estimate over the years, I feel that we have gradually developed from the very primitive conditions which existed when we first introduced broadcasting here and have progressed very favourably. I hope that the Minister will continue to give his personal attention to the broadcasting station in the future as he has done in the past.

Mr. Cogan

May I say that I was informed by the Parliamentary Secretary's office that this Vote was to be taken between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m.?

An Ceann Comhairle

The House is in Committee, and if the Deputy had not finished his remarks last night, I will hear him, but I call on Deputy Dockrell now.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

I am quite agreeable to wait if Deputy Cogan wishes to speak now.

Mr. Cogan

I will wait until later.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

There are one or two matters in the Minister's speech which I should like to have cleared up, but, before proceeding to ask questions with regard to them, I should like to say that, in the last few years, I have noticed an improvement in the standard of the programmes of Radio Éireann. I do not say that, in all the circumstances, they are what we individually would like them to be, but still I think an effort is being made to improve the quality of these broadcasts which I think has succeeded and is succeeding. I commend the Minister for that. I am very pleased to notice that in this year's Estimate provision is made for an increase in the symphony orchestra. As a lover of symphony music, I am afraid my views on that matter cannot, perhaps, be taken as representative of those of the general public and I hesitate to put them forward. But I do think that any increase in the quality of the orchestras in Radio Éireann will meet with the approval of what I might call enlightened public opinion. While there may be people who prefer céilidhe bands or dance music of any sort, I am glad to say that the thoughtful section of the public are being catered for. I have been going to classical concerts for about 20 years. I commenced to go to them when I was fairly young. I did not go to many during the war years. After a lapse of some years, I went to one recently and I was greatly struck by the number of young people present. When I first went to classical concerts, all the people present were middle-aged or elderly. Now, as far as I can judge, the audiences are mainly composed of young people. From the musical point of view, that is hopeful and it is a factor which anybody who is planning programmes for a broadcasting station should take into consideration. It has a very great bearing on the types of programmes which should be arranged. I am glad to say that the Minister is realising the place classical music takes in any educated community.

The Minister mentioned that he is about to inaugurate in the autumn of this year a short-wave, foreign broadcasting station. I should like him to explain in somewhat greater detail exactly what he means by a foreign broadcasting station. He did use the words: "North American" and, in this country, we are apt to regard foreign broadcasts as North American. I should like to see our station also catering for Europe. We should remember that there are many other countries than America—France, Italy, Germany, Spain and Switzerland, for example—and that there are audiences in those countries who would, no doubt, be interested to hear Irish views and comments and who would like to get to know something of Irish matters. That would require, of course, a foreign section in our broadcasting service. It would, probably, require a good deal more expansion than the Minister has envisaged. It is not quite so simple as broadcasting to North America and I should like to have the views of the Minister on the subject.

Even if we are mainly thinking of North America and the English-speaking portions of the world as the recipients of our broadcasting items, I commend this to the consideration of the Minister—that it is not solely, or even mainly, because of Irish news and Irish views our programmes will be listened to and will be a success. They will be listened to mainly on account of our comments and our attitude to world affairs generally. I should like to mention to the Minister, in that connection, a small newspaper in the United States which is well-known but the name of which I cannot recall. This newspaper, through the excellence of its comments, on international affairs and on affairs in America, built up a coast-to-coast circulation amongst enlightened people. As a result of the excellence of its editorial comments, it became indispensable to any person who wished to be au fait with American news. I should like that ideal to be held in front of our foreign broadcasting service. Otherwise, we run the risk of falling into the foolish error of just putting out our own news and not being listened to. People will listen to our own news through their interest in what we have to say about what is news to them. That presupposes that we have in the station a competent editorial staff, able to deal with foreign news services and, above all, able to comment on them in an interesting fashion, and, naturally, with an Irish mind. We cannot, and do not wish to, have them commented upon with anything else. We should go to very great trouble to build up an organisation which will be a credit to the country. I cannot go into the details but I should like to hear the reaction of the Minister to a proposal such as that.

Mr. Cogan

When consideration of this Estimate was adjourned last night, I was offering a suggestion which is, more or less, confirmed by what Deputy Dockrell has said. I was suggesting that, since we are going in for world-wide broadcasting, through the medium of a short-wave station, and since we shall be compelled to broadcast a considerable amount of Irish news and, as Deputy Dockrell suggests, Irish comments upon world news, it is essential we should not permit our broadcasting station to be a Party station. It should be national in the widest sense of the word. That is why I suggested that we should have, either controlling the station or as an advisory committee to the Director, an all-Party committee which would ensure that it would not be the narrow Party view which would be put across to the world by the various announcers and commentators on world events.

There are two dangers in connection with this world-wide broadcast. One is that we may put nothing out but the narrow Party view—the view of the Party which happens to be in power at the moment—and the other is that we may leave control of the whole service to a Government Department which will feel itself tongue-tied by reason of its natural fear of offending any Party in the State. In either case, I think that the service would be a flop and a failure. When giving a fairly comprehensive review of passing events in this country, you are always likely to touch upon matters of a contentious nature. There is need for a committee, composed of representatives of all Parties, who may have the time and the energy to devote themselves to making this service as good as it can be made. A short-wave station enabling us to speak to the plain people of Great Britain, North America and the English-speaking world and people with Irish associations and connections everywhere, is of immense value. In the last century, when it was considered desirable to state the Irish case, we sent representatives to the British House of Commons, to use that institution as a sounding board to express our opinions and to state our case before the world. Now, through this short-wave station, we have in many ways a more effective sounding board to express the views of the Irish people and bring to the world real news of Ireland and her affairs.

The council which I suggest is one of the ways out of the difficulty which I foresee in making that policy effective. It will be necessary to launch a publicity campaign in support of national unity, pleading Ireland's case and making the people of Great Britain in particular see how advantageous it would be to do justice to this country by the removal of the Border. I remember a story of a man who was very addicted to strong drink and who eventually was induced to become a total abstainer. A friend asked him how he was getting on and he said: "This total abstinence may be very good for my poor soul, but I am afraid it is going to be the ruination of my poor body." Now, there is no use in telling the British people that national unity here may be good for their souls, as it means righting a wrong of the past. It will be necessary also to make them see that it will be in their material interests to do justice to this country. That is a function which can be performed admirably by this broadcasting service.

We should also use the power and influence which this station will give us to combat the advance of communism, not only here but amongst our own people in Great Britain. It will be a terrible disgrace to our nation if people of our race, who have been driven to Britain to seek a livelihood, are dragged into the foul communist organisations which are seeking to attract their support. We must plead with our people to stand by the tradition of Christian outlook on social matters. In that way, we will be doing a service both to the Irish race and to the entire world.

It is frequently said that this Dáil, being a cross-section of the people, can be a useful advisory committee to the Minister in the matter of preparing programmes generally. There is a great deal in that, but this Dáil, as an advisory committee, has its shortcomings. Deputies, by reason of their vocation or occupation, have not much time for listening in. Very many Deputies are away from home for the greater part of their time; they have not much time to turn on the radio at home and very little opportunity of hearing it elsewhere. We might not be such a representative cross-section of the community as you would find in a parish hall or town hall meeting. The Minister should know what the ordinary people want in regard to programmes and should have some idea as to what the people would listen to and what they will turn off. I often wonder if it would not be possible, on occasions such as "Question Time" in various towns in the provinces, to have an inquiry as to the kind of programme the people want. It is possible also to send out a questionnaire to listeners, but very often a representative number of people do not reply to such a questionnaire. Frequently, when Deputies say here what is right and what is wrong in regard to a programme, they may feel very strongly on the matter, but they are expressing nothing more than their own personal opinion, and that differs with every listener.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.

Mr. Cogan

There are one or two guiding rules which the Minister might accept. When broadcasting, you are speaking to people for the most part in the living rooms of their own homes. The kind of programme that would be very successful in a hall or theatre is very often unsatisfactory when heard at home. That is true even of opera. You can listen to grand opera in a theatre, but when you get it in your own home it is not so grand. You can listen to a band playing on a promenade or in some public place or at some public function, but very often a loud, noisy band is not very pleasant in your own home. In the same way, plays which may go down well in a theatre or village hall may not sound half so good when broadcast, since people do not want loud noise, loud sounds, yells, shouts, wails, moans and such noises in their own homes. They very seldom attract either sympathy or hearing. While drama is very good and very desirable on the wireless, the ordinary human being will always plead for a good story—and a good story told through the medium of drama is always attractive. I am afraid that most of our playwrights in the last 40 or 50 years, following the bad example of George Bernard Shaw, O'Casey and others, have concentrated on caricaturing the Irish character completely, and of presenting our people in the worst possible light. In most of the plays written by Irish writers we have no heroes and no heroines. The overwhelming majority of the characters portrayed are villains of some sort. For the most part, they are undesirable characters. Some years ago I had to endure the pain of listening to a broadcast of The Playboy of the Western World. I was shocked at that presentation of alleged Irish life.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is not the first man who was shocked at that. I remember being shocked at it 30 years ago.

Mr. Cogan

We do not seem to have changed very much since then, because in my opinion The Playboy of the Western World seems to dominate the minds of nearly all who sit down to write an Irish play. You have in most of those plays the same coarse type of peasantry portrayed—vulgar, mean, cunning and loathsome in many respects. We had a similar type of play presented over the wireless last Sunday. I forget the name of it, but that does not matter. The characters were of such a despicable type that they would not be tolerated anywhere. One would not like to have to live with the type of people portrayed in that play. Is that absolutely necessary?

I have every sympathy with the Minister because it is probably true to say that the playwrights have failed to provide any other type of material. I think that if they have failed to provide any decent kind of play, suitable for presentation over the radio, we should go to other countries and see if their playwrights can provide us with suitable plays. There is no use in presenting caricatures of our people either to our listeners at home or abroad. I have no objection to a caricature of the Irish people in a comedy or a farce because the intention there is simply to provide a laugh. It does not matter in what country a comedy or a farce is produced, we know that the characters are exaggerated and that nobody takes them seriously. Nobody, for example, takes Charley Chaplin as being representative of a London citizen. There is no objection to exaggeration in comedy, because that is what you expect. In the case, however, of a serious play, if nothing is represented in it but unsentin pleasant characters and what is evil, and if these characters are represented as being Irish people—peasants for the most part—well, you are simply insulting your listeners and annoying people who have not given you any offence.

I remember two old farmers who were dear old comrades all their lives. They met night after night in each other's house and had long discussions on politics, the weather an so on. Eventually, one of them died. When the other poor old chap came to the wake and was taken to the room below the kitchen where his old friend was being waked, he stood for some time looking at him and said: "Oh, all our crooked and contrary arguments are over now". In saying that, he was expressing regret for the one thing which he had enjoyed most in life— the companionship of his friend and the intellectual arguments in which they used to engage. What I want to impress on the Minister is that the ordinary people listening to the wireless would like to hear more crooked and contrary arguments. They would like to hear two people engage in a discussion on some contentious matter. It might be the Taoiseach—"the greatest man that Ireland has produced"—or some other question. Let two get at it and debate it. I think that we do not get enough of that kind of dialogue over the wireless, one reason being that it is very hard to get anybody to write that kind of stuff. Another reason is that when a person sits down to write for or against some contentious proposal, he usually weights the argument in favour of his own point of view. If a member of Fianna Fáil were writing a dialogue for a discussion on the question as to whether the Taoiseach was or was not the greatest man that Ireland every produced he would make the person opposing the proposition appear very weak in his argument. What I suggest is that the Minister should get two people to write the script, one for one side and the other for the other side. Let each argument be short and concise, just like the ordinary conversation or dispute that one may hear at a cross-roads. If that were done this service would be providing very good education and entertainment for the listening public. It would also provide a lively argument in which neither side would be pulling their punches.

Another feature that should be introduced into our broadcasting service is the production of comedies and sketches. Comedy dialogue can also be very attractive and would be appreciated by listeners. We do not always want the heavy stuff. You could also give educational stuff in the form of a dialogue between two persons on, for example, what type of fertiliser is best for the land. We have had discussions in the public Press as to whether or not fertilisers should be used at all. Another question that might be debated is, what is the best breed of cattle for the country. Let that question be debated in an earnest and not in a half-hearted way. The old gentleman to whom I referred earlier longed for a contrary argument. Man is a warring animal and likes a fight. We indulge our liking for a fight in various ways, sometimes not very desirable ways and sometimes very desirable, for example, when we go to a football match to see two rival teams engaged, each striving to prove itself the better team on the football field. In the same way we would like to hear two contestants fight out over the wireless some difficult or contentious question.

In broadcasting to the world there are many things to which we could draw attention of people in other countries. There are many people who regard this country as a land of mud cabins and of barefooted colleens wearing shawls. It would be no harm to broadcast enlightened and informative statements on current events in this country. Our people in other lands would like a description of our principal sporting events, of our national activities, of the condition of agriculture and how it is carried on on up-to-date farms, of our industries. There are thousands of people in other countries who would like to listen to an intimate discourse on Guinness' Brewery or other Irish industries. Such broadcasts would benefit this country by teaching people abroad that we are not a backward peasantry living in primitive conditions. They would let the people know that we are a progressive young nation striving to advance and to regulate our progress according to sound national and Christian principles. That would help to create favourable public opinion to this country and there is no country that can afford to ignore world opinion.

Mr. Dillon

It bespeaks a noble affluence of literary riches when Deputy Cogan, with one sweep of his hand, deposits Shaw, Synge and O'Casey in the wastepaper basket. That is the spirit in which I like to hear Deputy Cogan. When he goes on expressing extreme solicitude for what the residents of the Bowery or White-chapel think of our cultural state, I think he is mistaken. I do not give a fiddle-dee-dee what Jugo-Slavia or Oklahoma or the back streets of Glasgow think of the cultural condition of our mind. There is an old saying that good wine needs no bush and if our cultural qualities are so sensational as to justify the casual shedding of Shaw, Synge and O'Casey as so much worthless dross, Deputy Cogan need not worry; if we never had a wireless mast in Ireland, the Seven Seas would be darkened with ships bearing investigators to our shores. We would be a shining light amongst the intellects of the world without any propaganda to tell the neighbourhood how wonderful we are.

I would like to see the proceedings of this Dáil broadcast all day, every day, that we sat. I would like to see it broadcast on a special wave-length different from the ordinary one employed by Radio Éireann so that all we say and do would be available to the people of this country to listen to and judge for themselves. I would like that for two reasons. I think the nearer a free people are brought to their own Parliament the more they will treasure it as a citadel of liberty. That is the primary reason that I want our people here in Ireland to hear what we are doing here all the time whenever they want to listen. But, although I would never make it my primary purpose, I think that in the back of my mind I would like to have it broadcast so that those who wanted to listen would hear all that was passing because then a great many people would realise that this deliberative Assembly to which we belong, with all its faults, is one of the best Parliaments at present functioning in the world.

It has become fashionable in this country to suggest that the proceedings of Dáil Éireann lack dignity or lack lucidity or lack relevance. But has it ever struck Deputies of this House that if there is the slightest contretemps in this House it becomes a matter of news in Great Britain and even in the United States? Have we ever asked ourselves why? If there is a scene in the corridors of the Chamber of Deputies in Paris, if there is a fracas in the House of Commons, if there is a violent exchange in the House of Representatives in Washington, it is not news. That is the dog biting the man. When that kind of thing happens here, that is the man biting the dog. That is why I would like our people to be able to listen for themselves all the time to what was passing in this House, so that they might know how their work was being done, so that if they felt at any time that criticisms of this House were such as to shake their faith in Parliaments, they could say: "Let us put that to the test. Let us listen to our own Parliament for a test period, knowing that it is not for that Parliament a choice time, because they have to function in the presence of the radio all the time, and that they are not on their best behaviour between 4 and 6 every afternoon but that, whether we start listening at 3 or at 10 o'clock at night, we hear it doing the same kind of job as it does every day in addition to the other work that its members habitually undertake for those they represent."

I suggest that that is something worth thinking over. Remember, the best method of defence is attack. The most unpopular opponent that tyranny has is a free Parliament. Tyrants do not achieve their tyranny by hiding their light under a bushel. They hold parades. They show themselves. They surround themselves with throngs and glory and bands and demonstrations. I am quite prepared to match all that panoply wherever it is shown, in Moscow or Berlin, with the plain work-a-day, perhaps drab, atmosphere of a democratic Parliamentary function. I think our people, like the British people, the American people, and, I believe, the French people, the Swiss people, the Dutch people, the Belgian people, the Scandinavian people, given these two things will choose the citadel of truth. Our only danger is that by consistently depriving people of their right to listen in and hear what is going on and giving it to those who hate Parliament and all it stands for (1) the right to show their light from the highest eminence they can find to stand upon, and (2) the right to slander and misrepresent Parliament continually without ever letting Parliament answer for itself, we are not doing our part. I want to defend this Institution by attacking those who tear it down. I am quite confident we will require no more formidable attack than to let in the light on ourselves and upon them.

I notice we are going to have a new personnel in Radio Éireann which will be primarily responsible for short-wave broadcasting. I notice the Director of the station is expected to retire shortly, but I cannot find any reference in the Minister's statement to the steps he contemplates taking to fill the post of Director when Mr. Ó Braonáin's term is over. I wonder what does this new personnel and short-wave station presage. I notice it largely consists of the Taoiseach's old guard. Is this short-wave programme going to be engaged on propaganda for this country or on a series of programmes to demonstrate the fact that Deputy Cogan suggests might be a subject of argument — that the Taoiseach is the greatest man that ever was born. I see some of my friends rallying to the service of Radio Éireann short-wave station who, by their past performance, would lead one to believe that they were reared to proclaim that the Taoiseach is the greatest man who ever was born. More than half the people of this country do not agree with that proposition, yet they are contributing to the taxes that are paid to the station. Of course, if the station is used to that end, measures, and effective measures, will have to be taken to ensure that that usage is rendered nugatory. I want to put this to the Minister as a member of the Government: I have got a horrible kind of feeling that this short-wave station is going to be used for the purpose of creating in the United States of America the idea that we have a kind of Irish fifth column there and that if the Administration of the day do not do what we think they ought to do we can put on the heat and speak to the Irish in America. Do many Deputies in this House ever ask themselves why it is that we get a little hot under the collar when we meet the Ascendancy in this country? It is not because they are old, it is not because they are ugly, it is not because the women have big feet or the men have drooping moustaches. It is because they are not at home here. They always feel themselves to have a kind of domestic-interest outside the country. If they were not so utterly ineffective, one might almost think of them as an English fifth column. Of course that would be silly. In fact, they are museum pieces and as such they are very precious—like old china or pewter mugs. But if they were not, by the passage of time, reduced to that antiquarian quality that fifth column element in their make-up would justify their unpopularity. Does the Minister's Government imagine that people of Irish birth or extraction in the United States of America desire to be held up before their fellow-countrymen in the United States as an Irish fifth column in America? Does the Minister imagine that people of Irish birth or extraction in America want to have it suggested, even by implication, that their actions in the United States are to be conditioned by what we in Ireland want them to do? I warn the Minister and his Government that if anything of that kind is attempted, quite apart from the bitter and justifiable resentment that it would create in Washington, throughout the whole gamut of Irish-American opinion, as they used to call it, it would cause the most acute embarrassment and distress, because our people, or those we used to call our people in America, do not want to be looked upon by their neighbours as hyphenated Americans. They do not like the term Irish-Americans, any more than others like to be called German-American, or Italian-American. They are Americans. The fact that their name happens to be McCarthy, O'Brien, Dillon or Cosgrave is something of which they are proud. They know the stock was good. But being proud of the origin of your stock is quite a different proposition from allowing it to be suggested that that origin gives rise to divided loyalty.

Just imagine the reaction of our people if the British Government addressed the people of English extraction in its country and asked them to unite to bring pressure to bear upon the Irish Government to do so-and-so. I would be inclined to say to those people who are living here: "Look here, let us get this straight. Are you citizens of this country, or are you not? If you wish to live here as aliens, there is a law under which you can live here; but if you wish to live here as citizens, let us hear no more of this business of a foreign Government addressing you as to what you should do or should not do in the internal political life of your country."

I wonder very much indeed if this plan to erect a short-wave radio directed to the United States of America on which propaganda about Partition, Irish propaganda, is to be disseminated is a good idea. I doubt it. It was one thing during the war, when there was censorship, when there was interruption of communication, and when a situation might arise when one community would get completely cut off from another, to resort to any device to bridge the chasm between us; but it is a different thing in normal times for the Irish Government to claim the right to address a section of the American people. I think it is a mistake and will do more harm than good.

I am bound to say that I believe the thing is largely cod, because the real explanation of the short-wave station is that the Taoiseach wants to go on a trip to America. He has been yearning for that ever since he became Taoiseach. He wants to get a good reception, and, at the moment, Mrs. Buckley's boys are more active in America than his boys.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Little)

Does this arise?

Mr. Dillon

That is what the station is for, because Robert Brennan has been brought back from America to sound the Taoiseach's praises over the radio. That is the whole purpose of this cod. I venture to swear that five years from to-day, when the rabbits start playing leap-frog below in Rineanna, the masts which are to direct the radio to the United States of America will be converted into knitting machines to knit the wool off the rabbits from Rineanna. By that time either the Taoiseach will have had his trip to America and his boop-a-doop there, or Mrs. Buckley's boys will have made it clear that, radio or no radio, he had better stay at home. If that is the reason—well, the Americans are no fools. They understand that kind of codology well enough. But, if it were intended to use this station for the purpose of insolent, impudent intervention in the domestic affairs of the United States by campaigns which might be represented in America as being designed to affect the Irish vote in the year of a Presidential election, remember that the big, quiet, gentle creature is tough when he is aroused. The quietest, gentlest creature in the world at the moment is the United States of America and do not rouse him, because he can be mighty tough.

How many people inside or outside this country or America ever listen in on the short-wave? I have one of those radio sets with seven buttons, six of them for various short-wave bands and one for Radio Éireann and the B.B.C. I have not pushed in one of the short-wave buttons for nine months. Is there anyone in the House ever listens on the short-wave? I used to listen to a man named Moffat, who broadcast gramophone records from Newry and I found I could get a better reception on the Aberdeen wave-length. Apart from that, I never used it. Does anybody use it? Do Deputies picture the Irish in the United States plugging in to this on the short-wave? I do not. I think that as a result of this enterprise we may get none of the advantages we anticipate because the kind of people we would like to think will listen to it will not listen to it. They will, in fact, listen to the incomparably superior programmes made available by the immensely wealthy corporations in America night and day rather than to what we can send out over the short-wave, the reception of which will be very doubtful. The only people who will listen to it are the people who may make mischief and we will have to pay for it.

Deputy Cogan thought we should broadcast to every country in Europe. How often did he listen to the Danish radio, the Norwegian radio, the Swiss radio, the Belgian radio or the Dutch radio in the course of the last six months? If he does not listen to them, why does he expect them to listen to us? Deputy Briscoe was talking a moment ago about the impressions one gathers as one travels around the world. The striking impression I got from going round the world was that a number of people did not know where this country was at all.

Mr. Briscoe

They were not very intelligent people.

Mr. Dillon

They were just average, simple people. I do not associate with the intellectual aristocracy of any country.

Mr. Briscoe

It is the plain people I associate with.

Mr. Dillon

I do not know whether you would describe them as plain people. I would not care to do so. I think they were rather well-chosen. Most of the friends I had were interesting and charming people, but it was quite a revelation to realise that many ordinary people walking the roads of the Continent of Europe and elsewhere, when you tell them that you came from Ireland, will either sympathise deeply with you for having to live in such a place or else ask you where Ireland was. Iceland seems to be a much better known region than this country—I suppose it is its association with ice. I do not mean to say nobody knows where we are. The vast majority of people do, but it is surprising the number who do not even know where this country is. I see Deputies shaking their heads in shocked horror, but I would like to ask some of the head-shakers where Lithuania is and I bet you it would put them to the pin of their collar to tell me. It is surprising how many respectable citizens in this country expect all the world to know where Ireland is, but they are not in the least surprised to discover that they have not the foggiest notion themselves about the rest of the world.

The Minister has decided to allow a certain amount of advertising time on the radio. I never could make up my mind for or against that, but on balance I think I am for it. Kept within reason, it brings in revenue and very often these firms provide a very pleasant programme. I do not mind their having permission to use a certain percentage of their time for proclaiming the virtue of their wares, but it is going a bit far if a whole hour is to be devoted to reading out numbers. One time last year after one of the Sweep-stakes I think they spent a week reading out the numbers of the winning tickets. They cut that down substantially this year, but I question the propriety of permitting the whole of any evening or any broadcast period purchased by an advertiser to be used exclusively for the purpose of proclaiming wares. I think the Minister should consider mentioning to the persons who take the time that they must adhere rigidly to a general regulation that only a percentage of the time purchased is to be used for proclaiming wares.

Deputy Dockrell mentioned that 25 years ago, when he started to go to symphony concerts, the audiences looked old and venerable, whereas nowadays everyone attending these concerts looks fresh and young. That is the common experience of all of us when we advance into middle age. I have in recent times stood at the street corners in consternation at the spectacle of beardless boys in the uniform of the Civic Guard, whereas in my young days the police were venerable gentlemen in whom you might repose the utmost confidence. Unfortunately, one comes to realise that there comes a day in the lives of us all when the Civic Guard or the bus driver is younger than we are. There was a time, of course, when such a thing was quite unthinkable. I hope Deputy Dockrell is right in believing that the younger generation are taking a greater interest in music, symphony music, than the people of 25 years ago. The next time he goes to the Royal Dublin Society I would invite him to look around and ask himself, had he seen this company five and twenty years ago, would he have thought of them all as bright young people or as venerable people.

Deputy Dockrell says we ought to afford Europe an opportunity of hearing our views. I think I have dealt with that. I believe if we afforded them that opportunity, nobody would listen or have the slightest interest in our broadcast. I do not think anybody from Southampton to Singapore gives two hoots in Hades what we think. The idea of the Russians listening in to a broadcast from the radio here is, to my mind, quite fantastic. There may be certain persons there who take a special political or other interest in this country and for that reason they might take care to locate our station, but the idea that they would all hang upon our words is to my mind quite fantastic.

I ask the Minister to consider the following matters as being proper additions to our programmes. I think it is a great mistake to provide a concert on occasions in this country consisting exclusively of Irish traditional music, or of something that is peculiarly indigenous to this country, but I think it is equally incongruous that, if we go to the trouble of organising a concert of symphony music, we should not from time to time, as these occasions present themselves, incorporate into the programme traditional music, such as that which is for me forever represented by Marcella Hurley singing "Bean Dubh a Gleanna", and harp music.

As regards harp music, everybody does not like harp music, but I think it is in some sense indigenous to this country. Again, I think it would be worth while on occasions having a concert of music of Irish composers. I think, also, it would be gratifying not only to us at home, but to many abroad, if a concert of music rendered by famous Irish artistes was provided. As to that last suggestion, it could be very easily done, not in very solemn form, but by a carefully devised and chosen gramophone record recitative of quite an incidental character, without making any hullaballoo about it.

Lastly, and I do not mean this should be done every night and all day, but occasionally, the poetry of this country, not excluding Anglo-Irish poetry, the contemptible contributions of such persons as Deputy Cogan so ruthlessly condemned, recited by Irish voices. It is not everyone, I suppose, in this House who has had the experience of living in exile for a time, but there is something peculiarly gratifying and exciting in hearing Irish voices, but not necessarily a West Cork accent that would lift the hat off your head, though that can be charming. I have heard it ringing through the Grand Central Station in New York, when it was like a draught of wine to hear it. The man who used is was very angry when I asked him if he came from Cork. He said he had not been there for 30 years and did not know he had any accent. The Irish voice—dare I say it in this citadel of the plain man— the cultivated Irish voice, reading Irish poetry is something, if it did penetrate the outer ether, that could be very welcome to our people, not because it moved them to heroic effort or to violent agitation but just because it made them think of home.

I agree with Deputy Cogan that short and informal debates, among recognised authorities on current topics, would be of great interest to a considerable body of our people, but I think to make them really interesting, they must be topical. They must relate to matters which for the time being engage the public mind. If we could bring to our radio in discussion or in some programme analogous to the Brains Trust in England, such persons as Crowther, the inimitable Alfred O'Rahilly, a Frenchman or a distinguished American. I think it would be very valuable and interesting. Sometimes it might be done by way of having two persons conduct a discussion, though in my experience I find such discussions sound pretty stilted. Unless they are organised on the lines of the Brains Trust they do not appear to be very spontaneous. However, the satisfactory arrangement of such a plan should not surpass the skill of our technical staff. Provided the subjects are topical and provided the persons taking part in them are really first-class, I believe the programme could be much enhanced by the inclusion of such items.

I want to join with other Deputies in expressing the opinion that I think the programmes of Radio Éireann are improving. For a Minister with such an infinity of patience as the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, I think he is deserving of special credit. The incubus of patience under which he labours is being stoutly borne in regard to Radio Éireann. It would be wrong to withhold that tribute of praise. I warmly felicitate the Minister on his decision to augment the orchestra. I am not so sure that his repertory theatre plans are the best way of approaching the matter. I think it might probably have been better if the existing repertory theatres had received some kind of grant to help them, on condition that they offered to the station a certain number of performances in the year. I am afraid that the repertory company in Radio Éireann will be—we have an Irish word for it—"bacach". However, time will tell. I should like to see those repertory companies which start of their own volition getting a look in.

Subject to these observations, and with very special reference to the note of caution I have sounded in regard to broadcasts directed to America, I have nothing to add but beware lest Radio Éireann should present our people in America in the light of fifth columnists. They will not like that; the American people will not like it. It is not true and it would have most disastrous repercussions upon this country if that impression were to spread abroad. We are proud to have their friendship and even their affection. We in this country would think ill of them if they had any allegiance comparable with their allegiance to America. Knowing them as we know them, we speak to them in the knowledge and on the assumption that, as between America and Ireland, they have chosen America and in every conceivable contingency would do the same again. There is no other basis on which they may be properly addressed and it is a matter of urgent and vital importance that nobody should ever make the mistake of forgetting that for a single moment, so far as this country is concerned.

Mr. Beegan

There are a few points which I should like to bring to the Minister's notice concerning matters upon which I have heard some comments down the country. The first is connected with the conclusion of the night broadcast on Wednesdays of each week. Of course news from foreign parts is very interesting to many people; music, horse racing and golf are interesting to other people; but there is one item which is given at the end of the news broadcast on every occasion in which a big number of our people are interested, a section of our people who are looked upon as being worthy of note at any time of crisis such as that through which we are passing at the moment, namely, the agricultural community. Many of them consider that they are entitled to have this item of news brought more to the forefront. I refer to the report of the Dublin Cattle Market and I wish to bring that point to the Minister's notice.

Listening to the speeches here, I heard Deputy Dillon suggest that it would be advisable if the proceedings of this House were broadcast. I hope the Minister will not accede to a senseless suggestion of that kind. Of course a section of the Deputy's followers in the country, a very small one, would be anxious to hear the Deputy exercising his oratorical powers in this House but I think they would probably be much better employed in attending to their ordinary duties at home. Of course what applies to the Deputy applies also to a number of other members of the House. A number of their camp followers would be glad to listen to them but, again, I think that in doing so they would be wasting valuable time. I think it was the most nonsensical suggestion ever made in this House.

Mr. Cosgrave

I should like to hear some statement from the Minister which would indicate the future policy of Radio Éireann. So far as I can see, the broadcasting station has been drifting along for a number of years with small additions here and there but in general there is no settled policy. Reading the Minister's statement one can only say that it is dull and drab, lacks imagination and is in general indicative of a policy which, so far as broadcasting is concerned, shows no clear-cut lines of thought or no clearcut views on broadcasting in general. It may be that the cause of that is the fact that the broadcasting station is the same, or almost the same, now, as when it was set up here in 1926 and that, with some small modifications, with the exception of a limited quantity of new equipment put in there from time to time, the facilities generally are the same as they were when the station was founded. Wireless and everything connected with it in the past 20 years, particularly in recent years, has made very rapid strides, and the equipment and buildings deemed suitable 20 years ago are entirely inadequate for present-day requirements. That being so, I think the Government and the Minister should consider some longer policy, some policy with a wider view, some policy which will give those charged with the responsibility of broadcasting better opportunities to make use of their talents and the talents available. So far as my information goes, the present buildings are entirely inadequate for modern requirements in broadcasting, and, consequently, the station and Radio Éireann in general, while it has shown some considerable improvement, is far from having the standard of efficiency of stations abroad which we are in a position to listen to.

I suggest to the Minister that it might be advisable to take broadcasting out of the control of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. It may be that a proposal of that kind would involve setting up a separate independent company. I do not see any substantial objection to such a course. In fact, if there is one case in which an independent company or body could be set up and in which it might have desirable results, it is this, where we could get an independent body charged with responsibility not merely for news but for all programmes, and in that way the radio would be expected to show some independence. At present the news in particular is bad, the news service of Radio Éireann is bad. Anyone who lives within 50 miles of Dublin, or even at a greater distance, can get in the evening papers practically all the news given by Radio Éireann, with the possible exception of some late local news or late Dáil reports. With these exceptions, the news is either a rehash of the news available in the evening papers or of the news available from the B.B.C.

I do not see why we should not make use of the services of a news agency. There may be objection to broadcasting directly news received from other countries, but surely we can engage the services of one of these news agencies, and, as is done by other stations, attribute the particular news to the agency. In that way, Radio Éireann will in no way be saddled with responsibility for disseminating that news or for the accuracy or general tone of that news. The people, at any rate, will be in a position to get news which at present is denied them. In so far as most listeners are concerned, if they want wider world news, they can get it by listening to the B.B.C., where they will get a fuller description of world news. If we are broadcasting a news service, I do not see why we should not undertake to broadcast some of the reports which these news agencies make available. In that way, Radio Éireann could give a far better news service than it is giving. Certain local information can only be given over the local station, and it must present a much fuller picture of local conditions than any news agency could possibly give, but until quite recently, and even at present, local news as given over the radio, with the exception of certain cities and big towns, is defective, and, in so far as the country in general is concerned, matters of serious note which should be reported are rarely reported until the following day. With the rapid transport of news-papers nowadays, it is possible to read these items earlier than one can hear them over the radio.

On the general question of what the public should hear, or what we should ask the station to broadcast to the public, I think that, taking it generally, the Dáil might give as accurate an indication of the public needs in the matter as any other body, but, on the other hand, there is no reason why what a Deputy says here, merely because he is in a position to say it in the Dáil, should carry any greater weight, in relation to entertainment, than what the ordinary citizen, who makes his views known to the Radio Director, may say and the ordinary citizen's views should be given consideration equal to that given to a Deputy's speech, except perhaps when public matters are in question. For that reason, I do not think it entirely fair that, on the entertainment side, views should be vigorously canvassed here in such a way as to suggest that because Deputies are in a position to voice their opinion on matters of entertainment and matters of topical interest, their views should receive any more attention than is given, in the ordinary way, to the representations made by individuals, either in reply to questionnaires or any other inquiries the station may make.

With regard to general policy and the guiding principles which influence the radio, I think that this is the place to make representations and to ventilate our opinions and the opinions which Deputies may glean from time to time from contact with their constituents. I should like to say that if there is one thing more than another which may damage this country abroad it is the complex that a large mass of people throughout the world is listening to Radio Éireann. I think that some Deputies gravely exaggerate our importance and our influence, and I feel that the Government and certain organs which they have available to them and which they use, are inclined at times to exaggerate our importance and the number of people outside who listen to us. Having said that, I must say that I do not want to imply that we should refuse to be influenced by public opinion outside, but, with the exception of America, England, a small percentage of French listeners and a small percentage of Spanish and Italian listeners, I think it is true to say that the world rarely listens. There is certainly only a very limited number throughout the rest of the world who listen to Radio Éireann. It is nonsensical and displays a complete ignorance of world affairs for Deputies to imagine that there is an audience all over the rest of the world listening to Radio Éireann. It is equally nonsensical to imagine that there is a vast audience in the United States.

An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.

There are large numbers of our people in America and, with the rapid rate of present emigration, there will be a large audience in England. These people will be interested in our affairs but, with the exception of emigrants and the children of people of Irish extraction, it is true to say that the vast bulk of the people of the United States and England do not listen to Radio Éireann any more than we listen to broadcasting stations in America. It is true that there are in America many people of Irish extraction and of Irish birth. While these people may not listen as regularly as we should like, they do listen on occasion. But anybody who has travelled even a small portion of the globe will recognise that other peoples are preoccupied with their own affairs. No matter how interesting we may make our broadcasting service, they will have other matters to which they will attend. Any statistics that have been compiled will show clearly that it is absurd to suggest that we have a vast listening audience in America or that we shall have such an audience. The Deputy who said that a number of those people never heard of this country did not exaggerate. The number of people who came to Europe during the war and who had never heard of this country was surprising. It would be untrue to say that the majority of the American people never heard of this country, but quite large numbers who came to Europe recently had only a vague idea of where Ireland was and those who were not of Irish extraction were not greatly interested in conditions here.

I should like to impress on the Minister and the broadcasting authorities that whatever information is given to our people in America should be accurate. There should not be any of the Fianna Fáil window-dressing which goes on at times at Radio Éireann. In future I should like that the questions and answers in the Dáil and the debates here be properly and effectively reported. It is nonsensical, and it is degrading to Deputies, that, when a question is asked here, Radio Éireann reports that the Minister concerned said so-and-so in reply to a question. One would think that the question was put by some mummified figure and that a wise, intelligent and far-seeing Minister gave the answer. Our constituents are as much entitled to hear our names on the wireless as are the constituents of any Minister to hear his name. It would not lengthen the programmes by more than five minutes if the names of the Deputies who put questions in the Dáil to which Ministers reply were mentioned. I do not want to hear the childish answers from the Minister that there is not time to do that. That excuse does not "wash" and, if it is the only explanation the Minister can give, I do not want to hear it. We want accurate Dáil reports. Most of the reports are jumbled, not through the fault of the reporters or the announcers, but owing to the way the reports are given to them by the news agencies. Very often you listen to a report of a debate here. You hear the initial speaker. You continue listening and, after a considerable period, you find that somebody else's speech is being reported. No later than last night, in the report of the debate regarding reflections on the Chair, the proposer of the motion was mixed up with the proposer of the amendment. Some care should be given to those reports. Deputies who are sent here by their constituents should have equal rights with Ministers. The constituents of Deputies are paying licence fees and are contributing to the revenue of the station. They should be given an accurate, even if, owing to present restrictions, a concise report of the proceedings of this House. If a Deputy puts a question, his name, at least, should be mentioned even if the actual terms of the question are not given. The name of the person to whom the Minister replies should be stated and listeners should not be left under the impression that he has replied to some mythical figure or to some automaton, operated by the pressing of a button.

Subject to these remarks, I think that the station is, in the circumstances, doing well, but it should be appreciably improved. Before we embark on a new short-wave station, we should make available to the personnel of Radio Éireann better facilities and improved conditions for broadcasting. Radio Éireann should be completely equipped and furnished with the facilities generally associated with a broadcasting station before we embark on a new venture.

Mr. P.J. Burke (County Dublin)

I do not quite agree with my honourable colleague, Deputy Cosgrave, that nobody will listen to our short-wave radio programme.

Mr. Cosgrave

I did not say that. If you had listened somewhat more carefully, it might have dawned upon you that what I did say was that there was an appreciable audience outside.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The Deputy made the point that, apart from our own people, we might not have an audience outside. Anybody with a radio gets into the habit of finding out what programme is on. If there is a good programme on, no matter from what country, you are inclined to switch on to that station. I am putting this point as a matter of argument. Considering the number of our people in the United States, Canada, New Zealand and Australia, a great many should be definitely anxious to hear our programmes. I think that it is going to be a great asset to the country to have a good short-wave station. I thoroughly agree with some remarks made by Deputy Cogan. He said that he would like to see Radio Éireann used more freely to bring public opinion to bear, particularly amongst our friends in other countries, on the wrong perpetrated on our country regarding Partition.

I wish to be associated with the remarks of Deputy Cogan on that point. Propaganda is used in every sphere from business to politics and for every vital matter in State or Church. I do not see why we should not use our radio for this purpose. Deputy Dillon is a very cultured gentleman and I feel sorry that he should not use his brains to better advantage. He implied to-day in his usual style that we might use the radio to interfere with the domestic affairs of the United States, or something to that effect. He had spoken for a while on the subject of having the Dáil speeches broadcast. It was very nice to hear him making that statement, but subsequently he spoke about using our short-wave radio to interfere with the internal workings of another nation. I hope the Minister will never consent to broadcast Dáil speeches when there are men standing up in the House representing a section of the Irish people and saying things like that. We are only a simple people, only a small nation, just trying to keep our heads above the water, we are only a young Parliament trying to do our best and it is up to every Irishman, no matter what his political views may be to contribute some constructive policy when we are dealing with international affairs.

Our country is not so well known. I have had experience of people coming into this country who had not known about it until until they came to Europe. The short-wave radio is another asset to us to bring our national point of view—not Party politics—before the people of the English-speaking world or those peoples who can understand what we want to say. Down through the ages prior to radio, even in the case of the people who went away to other countries and tried to help our point of view, they have always been an asset to this nation. Now, when we have radio, it should be used to the advantage of the country in an international way.

No one can say that the programmes have not improved recently. There has been a very fine improvement. I agree also with Deputy Cogan that debates on topical subjects would be very much appreciated, especially by listeners who say they listened to so-and-so make a certain point and who can then discuss it. That is responsible often for starting a controversy regarding the radio and I would like to see it more developed. Other Deputies have spoken about the possibility of Radio Éireann giving a weather forecast in the morning. I suppose that at some time in the future Radio Éireann will develop on those lines and become more up to date so as to give us more news in the forenoon.

Generally speaking, I welcome Radio Éireann extending to the short-waves. I would like to see the programmes as varied as possible and as entertaining as possible for our people. The Minister seems to be the right man in the right place. During his time in the Department he has been doing his job well and I hope he will continue to develop the station. I know he is not the man to do it for Party purposes but for the development of the country, both nationally and internationally.

Mr. Coogan

I had occasion last Friday night to listen in to the Radio Éireann news, deliberately for the purpose of seeing how the Dáil debates for that day would be treated. I heard this:—

"To-day in the Dáil the Minister for Finance announced that the Budget would be introduced on May 7th."

That was the end of the Dáil debates for last Friday. Of course, the Taoiseach had been sitting sullenly silent all day and had not opened his mouth, therefore there had to be a complete suppression of all the views put forward by the Opposition on that day. On the previous Friday—Friday is the only day I get a chance of listening to the Dáil debates—I had occasion to listen to the news also and I found this rather significant fact, that though we on this side of the House had spoken—several speakers from the Fine Gael Benches—all our speeches were eliminated. It is a good while since I listened previously to reports of the Dáil, but these are two recent happenings which forcibly drive home to me that there is a political censorship in the news service and that presumably the Minister has issued instructions that there is not to be an objective review of the Dáil debates.

Mr. Little

That is nonsense.

Mr. Coogan

It is not nonsense. I am stating facts. On these two successive Fridays, those are the facts and I challenge contradiction.

Mr. Little

I never gave such fantastic orders.

Mr. Coogan

It is an extraordinary coincidence that on these two successive Fridays the views on this side were suppressed. If that is a practice, I want to say here and now that Radio Éireann is not the property of the Fianna Fáil Party or the Government or the personal property of the Minister to be used in any partisan or Party way. It is the property of all citizens and particularly of those who subscribe for wireless licences. There should not be any censorship of the debates here. On the contrary, I strongly advocate a feature such as "To-day in Parliament" as is broadcast from the B.B.C. and which is given in a purely objective manner, giving above all the speeches from the various sides of the House of Commons. They are given in reduced form but presumably they are an accurate précis of the speeches. When a Deputy, particularly from this side of the House, is broadcast on Radio Éireann one or two sentences from an entire speech are taken, very often out of their context, and there is no effort whatever at a précis, with the result that when a Deputy listens in to himself he hears a most distorted version of what he said. On the other hand, the Ministerial view-point is given verbatim. The old practice which obtained heretofore of having the news bulletin broadcast lodged in the Library for the perusal of Deputies should be reintroduced. It is clear from the two instances I mentioned that political censorship does prevail. Whether or not the Minister has given instructions on this point I do not know, but I hope that, if the debates are to be broadcast, everyone who speaks from any side of the House will be reported objectively, and that a fair précis of what he says will be given.

Deputy Cosgrave has mentioned a matter which, I think, is of considerable importance, that is, the control of broadcasting and the desirability of considering an alternative method of control. I do not agree with the present system of control. I am giving my own personal views on this point. I think that control by the Minister of a Government, particularly a Government which is inclined to view most matters in a partisan spirit and light, is improper. I think, too, that Civil Service control exercised under the authority of such a Minister, is also not a system of control which is likely to give the best results to the public. I would prefer to see an independent corporation set up here for broadcasting such as they have in Great Britain —the B.B.C. I would prefer to see on that corporation experts in their own lines such as the drama, literature, radio experts and people of varying opinions and from various walks of life who could be trusted to enter into the best end of broadcasting in a non-partisan spirit and bring to bear upon broadcasting developments here the benefits of their experience in their various walks in life. Undoubtedly, the present system does lend itself to political influences, and one cannot get away from the suspicion that not only appointments, but broadcasting itself, may from time to time be subjected to political influences.

For that reason I question the propriety of bringing back from America a man who had been our Minister in Washington, a man who had been closely associated prior to his appointment in the diplomatic corps with the Government Party, a man who, it would seem from all these circumstances, is being appointed for political considerations, and certainly not because of his expertness in the technical matters involved in broadcasting. I feel that that appointment is deliberately aimed at some particular propaganda envisaged by the Government. It may be, as Deputy Dillon has said, propaganda to boost the Taoiseach, it may be propaganda to boost Fianna Fáil, or it may be propaganda to appeal to American interests in the matter of Partition. Whatever it may be, it would seem that it is going to be political propaganda of some kind or another. I think we are entering a very dangerous field when we appoint a gentleman to take charge of short-wave broadcasting for purely political purposes. I hope that is not so and is not the intention and that the Minister will be able to satisfy the House that, in this appointment, no political considerations whatever are involved, and that above all his function is not to disseminate political propaganda of any kind to outside countries. If we are to put ourselves on the map abroad, let us do so by way of culture, literature, drama and music.

Mr. P. Burke (County Dublin)

Has this gentleman not represented us nationally abroad?

Mr. Coogan

Yes. I think it is derogatory to his rank as a Minister in Washington that he should be brought back here to take charge of broadcasting.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows that a civil servant has no chance of replying.

Mr. Coogan

I would like to support Deputy Dillon in advocating a cultured voice from Radio Éireann. It is one of the things that I have heard commented on outside, that very often listeners-in are not able, on occasion, to follow what is being said because of the peculiar accents of the announcers. It would be desirable, if at all possible, to get that type of a pure cultured Irish voice that was at one time associated with the best spoken English in Dublin. That applies not only to those who take part in broadcasting constantly, but particularly to announcers who are so constantly coming on the air. I know there is the difficulty of getting the right type of voice, but the Minister should not be discouraged in his efforts to find that particular quality that is so badly needed. There are too many uncultured voices coming forth from Radio Éireann to-day.

There is just one other point, and that is in relation to the broadcast of games, particularly Gaelic games, which are very well broadcast and can be easily followed by listeners-in who are close followers of them. The position is quite different in the case of outsiders who have no idea of our Irish games and who do not know Mick Mackey or Lowry Meagher or our other outstanding hurling and football stalwarts. It is futile to tell the outside world that Mick Mackey is in possession and is going for a goal. There ought to be some way of giving to outsiders not familiar with our Irish games an idea of the positional play. Those, of course, who are familiar with the games, and with the positions customarily filled by prominent players can follow the broadcast quite easily, but the difficulty that I refer to arises in the case of outsiders who have no knowledge of Mick Mackey or Lowry Meagher, and no conception of the positions which they occupy on the field. That is an aspect that should be remembered when a broadcast is given, and, therefore, I say the positional play should be indicated, so that when listening-in we may know where the ball is at a particular time and can visualise what the player is trying to do with it. I know that I myself have found it difficult to follow a broadcast of other games with which I am not so familiar, and for the reason that I have given in the case of our Gaelic games. It may appear to be a small point, but if it were attended to it would add to the interest of outsiders in the broadcasts of our own games.

I would ask the Minister to dissuade his colleagues from embarking on Partition propaganda through the short-wave radio. I do not think that is going to get us anywhere. I, personally, would not listen-in to a broadcast from Palestine about the partition of Palestine. I have no interest in it and I do not care two hoots about it. I doubt if anybody similarly situated in any other country, except perhaps an odd Irish person, would have any interest in listening-in to our political propaganda about our dissensions and divisions here, North and South. If we want to begin a Partition drive, we should unite here and make that drive across the Border. Let us have a rapprochement between Dublin and Belfast. If we cannot bring about a solution of Partition by a rapprochement between Dublin and Belfast, we are not likely to do it by a broadcast to New York, Albania, Canada, or any other place.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

I think the Minister would need to be very careful in giving out propaganda or preaching at people over the radio. Most people want amusement or relaxation from the radio. Propaganda, once it is recognised as such, loses interest for most people and will not be listened to. The same applies to preaching at people or educating them. It must be very carefully done and put in its proper place.

There is another matter. I do not know if any other Deputy has mentioned it but certainly it is so important as to bear repetition. I refer to interference. That is a very sore subject with many listeners in Dublin. Some people tell you that they find it impossible to hear any station at times and others tell you that they can locate the cause of the disturbance as the hairdresser's machine down the street, or something like that. I suggest to the Minister that there is a number of very humble listeners who are entitled to a certain amount of consideration. I do not know whether it is a matter for the Minister or for the Electricity Supply Board but certainly you want to get current delivered as free from interference as is possible. Remember, very little consideration and time spent on that would earn big dividends for the Minister in the good-will of his listeners. I take it that the matter of other stations being audible in the background and being very nearly on the same wave-length is one in which the Minister is not his own master, that it is an international matter, but it would certainly add to the clarity of reception if the interference caused thereby could be eliminated.

I do not know whether wireless telephony comes under this Estimate or not.

An Ceann Comhairle

That comes under the Post Office.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

Then I will not say anything about it except that it seems that it will be heard of in future.

Mr. Little

Yes, that is true.

Mr. O'Leary

I wish to add my voice to this debate. The question of propaganda has been referred to. During the last war everybody had a wireless set for the purpose of being able to hear the propaganda by Lord Haw Haw. People in the country want more of the "Around the Fire" type of broadcasts. They do not want highfalutin stuff at all. They want plain music, céilidhe music, in the country places at any rate. In my constituency, the majority of the people do not know Irish, and they have to wait for the news in Irish to be given before they hear the news in English. I think the news is broadcast too early. Generally, the working man does not leave work until 6 p.m. and is not home until 6.40 p.m. By that time the news is over. I think 7 o'clock or 7.30 should be the time for the first news in the evening. That would give everyone a chance to get home. 10.10 p.m. is too early for the last news. Anyone returning from the pictures misses the news. 11 o'clock should be the time for the last news.

We must consider our Irish people all over the world. I have many relations in England and Scotland. They love to hear what is going on at home. It would be no harm to broadcast items of local interest. It would be a good idea to broadcast some of the Parliamentary questions and answers, which would be of interest to the community. When a Deputy puts down a question, he has been asked to do it, and the people concerned like to hear the answer. They may live in some out-lying district where they may not get the daily papers. People buy radios so that they may get the news. That is what they pay their tax for. Racing results are a good news item. The results of the big races should be announced earlier. It would save a good deal of anxiety if people knew how the horses ran. Céilidhe music and programmes like "Around the Fire" are what the country people want, not some of the highfalutin stuff that some Deputies have been talking about.

Mr. Commons

One thing we must realise about Radio Éireann is that it is not such a high-power station as stations in England, on the Continent and elsewhere, and that we cannot give a news service as good as can be given in other countries. The object we should have in mind is to give as good a news service as we can. The same applies to every other type of broadcasting. It is very hard for anybody to judge, and it would be very hard for the Minister to judge, the most suitable features to broadcast from Radio Éireann. One section of the community likes céilidhe music and knows everything pertaining to céilidhes and Irish, while others like different types of orchestras, and so on. I think the best thing the Minister can do is to carry on the way he is, thus giving a certain percentage of satisfaction to each listener. Personally, I think that plays are very enjoyable over the radio. Ninety per cent. of the people who cannot go to cinemas or theatres and who have to stay at home listen in for enjoyment.

I would advise the Minister in regard to the new short-wave station which he proposes to open and also in regard to the existing station to be careful in the selection of actors who broadcast the plays. It is a well-known fact that while an actor may be perfect in every way on the stage and may, as a matter of fact, reach fame, nevertheless that same actor may not be suitable as an actor when broadcasting plays. When broadcasting his voice only is heard and those who are perfect in one respect are often found to be of no use whatsoever in another. Therefore, I would advise the Minister to look carefully into every application which is made by individuals who offer their services as radio actors and to give each one a fair trial. I know it may be expensive and that it will cost extra money but I think it would be worth while and that by that simple process he would be able to grade out the applicants and select the best. I think the Minister would not be sorry and that he would find that this method would be of considerable benefit and would pay in the long run. A great deal of notice is taken of the voice of a broadcaster and everyone would appreciate a perfect voice or one as near to perfection as can be found.

I desire to make a few observations on the broadcasting of the news. I think that we should have, if possible, a news broadcast at 9 o'clock every morning. Some Deputy suggested that a weather forecast should be broadcast early every morning in order that everybody might know the prospects of the weather for the day. I think that the man fit to give that forecast would be a remarkable man. Nobody at the present time can forecast the ups and downs of the weather for half an hour, but I think that the average man in the country would appreciate some news, even a few items, at 9 a.m.

Perhaps it may be too much to expect a continuous radio programme during the day. Definitely we are lacking a great deal in that respect as compared with other countries. Perhaps we have not news enough or features enough——

Mr. Little

——or money enough.

Mr. Commons

Now that the new station is being opened I hope that an effort will be made to give the people a better broadcasting service. Several Deputies here have referred to the broadcast reports about the business of Dáil Éireann. They are not as good as the average man would like them to be. We must realise also that in this House there are, let us say, about a dozen Deputies, excepting Ministers, who seem to monopolise and to take it on themselves to monopolise the entire conduct of the House. If constituents in certain constituencies are disappointed because they do not hear the name of their local Deputy mentioned the fault may not be with the Minister or with the local Deputy. It is very hard to satisfy the people down the country.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present—

Mr. Commons

I think the reports of the business of the Dáil broadcast by Radio Éireann could be elaborated. As has already been pointed out, in the case of questions, the name of the Deputy who asks a question should be stated or it should be stated that the Minister, in reply to a question by Deputy So-and-So, gave such an answer. The Deputy is entitled to that.

With regard to sports broadcasts I think that everything as far as the Gaelic code is concerned is very well broadcast and that we cannot complain about the man who does that work. He is one person who can definitely be said to be good at his job. We cannot have any complaint as regards that.

Deputy Coogan said that in the broadcasting of games, such as hurling, those who listen in from outside this country may not know the positions on the field of the different players and that when a player is in possession of the ball, the broadcaster should make an effort to give the player's position on the field. That is very hard to do. It would be almost impossible for a broadcaster, who has to use both his eyes and his tongue at the same time, to say that the player in possession of the ball is the centre half-back or the left wing forward. On the whole, I think there cannot be any great complaint in that regard.

As to horse racing and dog racing, I have never heard any complaints about the broadcasts which are occasionally given, but those people who are interested in horse racing and dog racing and who pay for a radio licence are entitled to get an earlier broadcast of the results of the different races. The one feature I like most on the radio is "Question Time." Everybody who listens-in to it finds it amusing, entertaining and instructive, because there are some very good brain teasers put by the compére. It is interesting for any listener to take a competitor's number and see how he compares with that individual. People have a habit of doing that and find it very interesting.

As to the new short-wave station, we should make every effort to bring to the attention of the world the question of Partition. I think we should have at least every week a broadcast on that station telling the world nicely and quietly and without any undue heat what the position is, how our country is divided, and how those who talk so much about fair play for small nations should endeavour to see that the partition of our country is brought to an end. At any rate, we should devote a certain amount of time to propaganda, especially propaganda directed to the removal of the Border or the bringing about of the independence of our country. It may be an entire failure, but it is worth trying.

Deputy Beegan referred to the Dublin Cattle Market. There should be a more detailed report given about that and it should be given earlier in the day, if at all possible. I realise, as the Minister said, that he cannot have a programme covering the whole day and, if he cannot, then he cannot give certain news at certain times. While not as good as we would like it to be, on the whole I think Radio Éireann is probably as good as our country can afford. If the Minister could in any way improve on the programmes, that improvement would be welcome. If he cannot satisfy everybody, then we must forgive him. But there is one thing I think he should do and which would satisfy everybody who listens in, and that is to reduce the licence fee to 10/- per year. The extra 2/6 is the cause of more complaint than any of the programmes that have been broadcast. I know the Minister will say: "If you want more items on the programme, we must collect more money in order that these items may be given." If he could do what I have suggested, he would be doing something which the average radio listener would be very glad to see happening.

In the selection of people for broadcasting posts I should like the Minister to take into consideration every application received. I know that there must be thousands of applications for the vacant posts and that those people will be pretty well paid. The standard, therefore, will need to be very high. But if he could give a trial to all the applicants, it is possible that he might get from one of the most remote parts of the country one of the most cultured speakers that could stand before a microphone. If he does what I suggest, although it may be more expensive, I think it will prove to be more satisfactory in the long run.

Captain Giles

There is not much room for controversy with regard to this Estimate. The programmes from the station, so far as I know, are reasonably good. I think the programmes are as good as those given by any other station. You cannot please everybody, but on the whole I think the station pleases people pretty well. There are a few items I should like to deal with. I think the weather forecast should be given in the morning and at night, so that those engaged in agriculture may know what weather to expect. For instance, it is important for a farmer in the hay-making season or at harvest time to know whether he may expect three or four hours of fine weather. As regards the broadcasting of the proceedings of the Dáil, we all, more or less, object to the fact that the name of the Deputy who may have asked a very important question is not given, but the name of the Minister who answers it is given. It may be a very important matter, and I think the name of the Deputy asking the question should be given.

I am very glad that the short-wave station is to be started. I expect the chief aim of that station will be to give important broadcasts which will be heard in other countries. We expect to have some very important broadcasts in connection with Partition and our national status. When we are broadcasting on the very important issue of Partition, we should speak with the united voice of the Irish people. The services of the Leaders of the different Parties should be availed of for these broadcasts. The Taoiseach can broadcast as the head of the Government, as he is entitled to do, in order to show that the Irish people are united in an effort to undo that wrong. All the Parties should endeavour to show that we are a united people in our effort to remove this blot on our country's status. Every effort should be made to get a united voice on the national position of this country. I am satisfied that the programmes given are reasonably good and that the people are getting satisfaction from them. If we want to have programmes on a higher level, we will have to pay more money for them. In general, I think there is very little to complain about.

Mr. Halliden

I should like to avail of this opportunity to pay tribute to the Minister and his staff for the very painstaking, efficient and courteous manner in which they treat all suggestions and recommendations made to them by the general public in regard to the broadcasting station. When we tune in to hear the news at night, we look for more home news than we are supplied with. It is very interesting for some people to hear items of foreign news, but there are many news items of Irish interest which should be broadcast. In rural Ireland, especially, a great many people are disappointed because there is not more Irish news on the radio each night.

I would like to emphasise the necessity of reverting to the talks or lectúres on agriculture that we had some time ago. There are a great many farmers throughout the country who have a full knowledge of their industry and it would be well if that knowledge were conveyed to others over the radio. In addition to these farmers, who would, I am sure, be very willing to give their services, we have in Cork University a dairy science faculty, with Professor Boyle at the head of it, and he and his staff would give valuable information on the dairying industry, which is of such vital importance to the people now. Here in Dublin, in the Albert College, we have Professor Sheehy, one of the ablest authorities in Europe, I think, on animal nutrition. I would like to hear from him occasional lectures on feeding and the value of various types of food. It would be well if one evening each week were set apart for a talk of that kind.

I am very glad to be able to pay a tribute to certain items on the programme, particularly those dealing with folklore and traditional songs and music. I feel, when I hear the céilidhe bands and other items of that kind, that were it not for the radio the grand old Irish songs and the music of our forefathers would be entirely forgotten and would pass out of mind and never be heard by the young people, who hear in the dance halls and elsewhere so much jazz music. I think the radio counteracts the tendency of these young people to have a flair for modern dance music and jazz. It is a great tribute to our radio station that they cater there so extensively for the old folk songs and traditional Irish music.

Our Irish items are also satisfactory and, on the whole, I think we are getting as much satisfaction from our broadcasting station as one could reasonably expect for the money that is expended.

Mr. Little

I think it will be a source of very great satisfaction to the director and to those who are connected with the working of the station when they read that there has been an expression of almost general satisfaction as regards the manner in which the station is being conducted. Deputy Roddy examined the Estimates with, so to speak, a microscope and he wanted us to give even more details than we were able to give. There are reasons why we could not give further details. As my experts point out, we are not able to control the supply of steel, lead and coal, which are the three big factors in estimating the cost.

With regard to the short-wave station, we have been able to put on order one of the big masts, which we hope to have at the end of this year. It was to have been here by April but, owing to delays, it was postponed and it will be some time in the fall when the first mast comes. There is a possibility of getting a second mast which, I think, is already made, and we shall look for two other masts later on.

The principle on which the Estimate works is that it is put down and the House gives permission for the expenditure of money. Sometimes it will be only a token Vote and, if that is so, a Supplementary Estimate is brought in afterwards for the exact amount which will be expended, if it is over what is already on the Estimate. That will be the procedure with regard to this Estimate, just the same as in relation to any other Estimate.

The amount we are spending, as Deputies know, is considerably more than we were spending in other years. There is always a certain amount of doubt as to whether we should regard the customs duty as something which we might set against expenditure. For instance, I have certain figures here which indicate that the licence fees brought in £112,500. Advertisements brought in £41,100. Just to show you how the Estimate varies at times, I might say that we had a very conservative estimate with regard to our advertisements for last year, the sum being £17,760, and we actually got in £41,100. The total revenue was £153,600 and the total expenditure £244,293. If you were to take into consideration the customs duty it would add enormously to our credit.

The principle upon which the Department of Finance acts is that all the money that comes in goes into Finance, as if it were an ordinary tax, and we are paid just as much as is considered adequate to conduct the station. Really, there is no kind of balance struck, but it is understood that certain moneys are attributed to us as if we had earned them. If we were to take into consideration the customs duty we would be well on the right side of the balance sheet. From 1925-26 to date the amount of customs duty is very considerable. The total revenue for that period was £2,804,381. That includes licence fees, advertisements and customs duty.

Mr. Roddy

Not almost £3,000,000 surely?

Mr. Little

That is over the whole period since 1925-26. I have not the figures for the total expenditure during the same period, but the surplus, the revenue over expenditure, would be £788,000. In a sense, if you allow the customs duty attributed to us for those years, we are not extravagant in running the station.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.

Mr. Little

Obviously there are other financial considerations why there should be a conservative estimate of how much we should be allowed to spend.

I was asked a question as to what our policy was. In opening the debate, I did not mention the policy in general outline, partly because I thought people had taken it for granted. In many speeches in the House there was a clear indication that there is an understanding of what the general drift of policy is. It is clear, from what is done in other countries, that the institution of broadcasting has come to be regarded in every country as of very great importance. Each country thinks of it as the outward expression of the best that is in it. It is for each a really national institution, speaking first to its own race and people and, through productions of various kinds, to the world. All the activities of a country are constantly under review. I cannot think of any important activity which does not find its way through the microphone to an almost unlimited public which may wish to, or just happen to, listen in.

Our neighbours are spending very large sums of money on radio. This year I notice by the Press that Britain is spending some £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 more than formerly on the stations. We cannot compete in expense, but we try to make up for that in quality. We work on the principle that it is better to have shorter hours and to give the best quality we can.

I was very glad to find that people generally approve of our policy of trying to give the best music. It was certainly with a certain amount of trepidation that we entered on the policy we adopted. When you consider the enormous advances that have been made in the spread of good music in other countries and how a big public in other countries take a great interest in the best music, there is a wide field for development open to us. The tendency in all countries is to try to popularise the very best type of culture. In other words, the democratic attitude is being adopted in every country of trying to give the best to the people. There was a time, even within our own memories, when only a select few prided themselves on being interested in culture—in art, drama and good music. Now, there has been a complete change in the point of view and every Government tries to give the very best it can to all its people. I do not think our people are any less intelligent than other peoples and I think they are entitled to the best in the same way as the people of other countries. We have quite a leeway to make up before we reach the standards of culture of most of the northern countries of Europe. Some of them are smaller, some of them larger than this country but in general their resources are about the same.

On the whole it should be a matter of national pride to provide the best programmes that we can at our broadcasting station, and to make them at least as good as those provided in other European countries. We have tremendous raw materials in our folklore, in our traditional music and in the ability available in the country. What we do not like is that some of our people are inclined to be satisfied with programmes of second-rate quality. I think that is partly due to the fact that the teachings and standards of our people, due to historic causes, were inferior to those which would otherwise have obtained and that we had not a period of peace in which to develop sufficiently. I believe that the ability and the raw material are now available and that they should be exploited. The reason that we have established a short-wave station is that we want to show the world the very best that is in us. We do not want to use it merely for propaganda purposes. Propaganda has defeated itself in most countries. People are tired of listening to mere propaganda, the mere putting across of that sort of aggressive propaganda of which we became so tired during the war. The best propaganda to end Partition is to show the world the best that is in us culturally rather than to try to engage in war on the air. It is a very dangerous thing to make war on the air because the nuisance value of a station that wants to interfere with other stations is so great that, if others on the air retaliate, there is a general din and no one can listen to any station.

We are confronted with many problems at the moment and we have had to send some of our best experts to America to try to get a short-wave band. This is the first big conference which will distribute wave-lengths for the whole world. We are going to have to take our turn to see what we can get in the way of adjustment, in order that the interference between stations may be reduced to the minimum and also in order to try to get a proper place on the short-wave band.

Whilst I am speaking about interferences, perhaps I should advert also to the complaints of a few Deputies about local interference. I am afraid that as time goes on, with the development of electrical machines, the problem of interference is going to increase. We do our very best, our experts are constantly giving these matters attention and if anybody has a complaint to make they see to it at once. We have succeeded in remedying defective reception in some cases. We have been able to eliminate a good deal of the interference in local areas because there are gadgets that can be attached to electrical machines with that object and we try to persuade the proprietors of such machines to make use of these appliances. I do not think we have any compulsory powers in the matter. All we can do is to try to persuade such parties not to interfere with their neighbours' reception. My own opinion is that, as electricity becomes more popular throughout the country, that problem will increase. At the same time means of cutting out radio interference are being developed. Modulated frequency is an extremely expensive form of radio distribution.

I do not know that I should delay the House any longer but reference was made to a great many matters in the long drawn out discussion on the Estimate. I think the best I can do is to say that all these matters will be noted and examined. The news broadcast was referred to. We are very proud of our news service. Within recent months we have gone in for a very elaborate news service, and I was very surprised to hear some Deputies refer to the news service as being copied from the evening papers. There was a time when we had to rely on such sources of information but we have now an expensive news service. We have a most excellent staff and I think our news service is quite as good as can be found anywhere. I do not agree with Deputies who spoke about a neutral news service. It occurred to me, listening to some Deputies, that what they wanted was not news at all, but a kind of folklore. After all, news is distributed by the various news agencies and by different services and the items must be very similar unless these agencies depart from the truth.

Deputy Corish raised the question of the refusal by the Department to give recognition to the National Union of Journalists as representing our editorial staff. It would be contrary to general policy in regard to the Civil Service to accept representations on behalf of civil servants from organisations the membership of which is not confined to the Civil Service. Any representations which the broadcasting news staff may wish to put forward, either collectively or individually, will have careful consideration and this intimation has been conveyed to the news staff. If, however, the news staff wish to have representation through a union, I believe there is an appropriate organisation within the Civil Service for membership of which they would be eligible. We have, of course, no objection to the Radio Éireann news staff maintaining their membership of the National Union of Journalists for the purpose of entitlement to benevolent funds or other benefits, but we cannot accept representations from any outside union on behalf of civil servants in regard to their position in the Civil Service. It must also be remembered that these journalists who have joined our staff have the benefits of sick pay and of pension, so that their status is different from that of journalists working outside.

Mr. Corish

Can the Minister say what is the staff organisation to which he referred which would cater for these journalists?

Mr. Little

I think it is an organisation for professional officers. With regard to weather forecasts, that matter has been giving us a good deal of thought lately. We have been dealing with meteorologists in the matter, and I do not know whether we should start such a service until we are in a proper position to do so, so that we would not mislead the people. It would be necessary to get local reports very often, and, even then, the most we could do would be to indicate weather conditions for perhaps a few hours. It might be very useful to farmers to know what conditions were going to be even for some hours ahead, and for that reason we are anxious to do it. It will cost a little extra money, but I think it will be justified, provided we do not give forecasts of the weather which turn out to be inaccurate.

With regard to cattle market reports, we do give these reports. It was suggested that they should be given at an earlier hour. I can have that examined, but they are almost invariably given in the late news on market days and generally in the second news also. Since the curtailment of broadcasting hours, owing to electricity restrictions, we have not been able to give them on the first news.

Deputies referred also to propaganda with regard to Partition and such questions. That is really a matter for External Affairs. Whatever would be done would be done through External Affairs. Broadcasting is a service which is at the disposal of all Departments—Agriculture, Industry and Commerce, and External Affairs—and questions which raise international relations must necessarily be subject to the control of the Department responsible.

A reference was made to the reports of the proceedings of this House in the news being distorted. One Deputy put his finger on the difficulty with regard to giving reports of all Deputies who speak. It would be very difficult to do that without picking out one Deputy rather than another. Very often, as Deputies are aware, we have 40 or 50 questions on the Order Paper, and if we give some names and do not give others, the Deputies whose names we do not give have a grievance against those we give. The purpose of the radio news service is to give the greatest possible summary of the news which is most important and the matter which interests the country is really the information given by the Government. If it happens that a Minister's name is mentioned, I do not think that can be regarded as propaganda, because it simply means that the particular answer comes from that Minister. I do not think one could consider that as distortion. It would be extremely difficult to pick out one Deputy rather than another because the Deputies who are not mentioned will have a grievance against the ones who are, and the method adopted is easier and saves time. Some Deputies said that it would mean only an extra five minutes, but five minutes on the radio is a very valuable amount of time, when one considers how much can be said in five minutes and the number of hours we are on the air.

With regard to the actors, examinations are going on at present. Some Deputies suggested that we are not paying them sufficiently well. The number of applications which have come in is 500, all of whom have to be examined, and the terms we are giving are very fair. They appeared in the advertisement and I need not go into the figures now, but they compare very favourably with the pay given by any of the theatres. The films, of course, pay enormous rates and I do not suppose that any Deputy will suggest we should compete against them.

The question of the censorship of speeches was also mentioned. It is not exactly a censorship. It is control by an editor. In the case of a great news-paper, the editor, sub-editor or somebody responsible must see everything that goes into the paper, and, in the same way, the Director of Broadcasting, or somebody to whom he has delegated the power, should see everything that is to go on the air. I suppose one should make an exception in the case of the Head of the State. That is a matter of practice. He does generally submit his manuscript and did so on the occasion of his Mayo speech when a few verbal changes—nothing of substance—were made. I should much rather see Deputies approach this problem from the point of an editor who, having invited someone to speak, wishes to co-operate and to help the person who is to broadcast to do it as effectively as possible, who has to point out certain snags, that certain things carry certain meanings, certain implications, which he may not have seen. During the emergency, there was one occasion when a manuscript was not submitted and a sermon was preached which might have got us into considerable trouble. On other occasions, manuscripts were submitted and we had to point out that it would be very dangerous to have certain references made. The people concerned were very helpful and made the necessary omissions. That is merely common sense and to call it censorship is not reasonable.

I should like to conclude by saying how much we appreciate the work of the retiring Director of Broadcasting. He did a good job and it was a very difficult and a very trying job. I should like also to pay a compliment to the whole staff and I think it will be a source of satisfaction to them that, on this Estimate, so many people said good things about them. That reminds me of the new Director. The reason why the new Director has been appointed is that he has very wide diplomatic and Press experience and that he knows America. He knows what should be stated and what should not be stated and he knows the taste for Irish music and Irish cultural items in America. Deputies may rest assured that he is not there for any small Party purpose. He is there because he had diplomatic experience and training which is, perhaps, the best possible training in the circumstances. It was a very fine gesture on his part to accept the position, because, as somebody has said, the position he occupied was one of much higher rank. He did not, however, stand on ceremony, and he is quite willing to do work which is of enormous national importance. It is clear to everybody—and other countries recognise the fact—that radio is being regarded, more and more, as a matter of importance. The countries which understand its value rely more upon making their programmes attractive than in seeking to carry out any sort of small-minded task.

Mr. Roddy

What are the functions of the broadcasting advisory committee? Is it their sole duty to advise on the arrangement of programmes and their presentation and what special qualifications do they possess for this purpose? Is it the intention to utilise the services of the members of this committee for the purposes of the short-wave station?

Mr. Little

I am glad that the Deputy reminded me of that matter because I should like to say again what I said in my opening statement, that we are extremely grateful to the committee we have. The members are picked from the point of view of the possession of a good cultural approach, without having any direct interest in productions on the radio. They have been extremely helpful to us in a few things, particularly in relation to the item, "Listen and Learn". Each of the officers in control of a section has been before the advisory committee and has discussed the programmes with them. They have offered many suggestions which were very helpful. That is how we work the advisory committee. We do not put on the committee anybody, no matter how distinguished, who might be coming to the radio on the basis of a fee. Once they come to the advisory committee, they are excluded from the radio programmes.

Mr. Roddy

Do the members of this committee advise on the preparation of the whole programme of Radio Éireann and the manner of its presentation? Are they supposed to be specialists? Is there one specialist in literature, another in drama, another in music and so on? Are they supposed to possess a special knowledge of broadcasting and the technique of broadcasting?

Mr. Little

I think I could say that some of the members of the advisory committee are experts on music and some on drama production. Some were very familiar with, and had done a considerable amount of, broadcasting. We bring up those who are in charge of the sections and they discuss with the committee all their problems. The person in charge of a particular section—the talks officer, the news editor or the experts on the electrical side—comes before them and gives an explanation of the working of his section. Then, they get advice from the advisory committee on their problems.

Mr. Corish

Will the Minister say if he proposes to avail of the services of professional journalists throughout the country?

Mr. Little

We are gradually taking on correspondents all over the country. As regards the G.A.A., enthusiasts in different parts of the country ring us up on their own responsibility to give us the results. I do not think that we should interfere where enthusiasm for a national sport is concerned. Obviously, where we have a correspondent, he should be the first person who would send us the news.

Mr. Corish

Does the Minister not admit that, under the present system, he interferes with the occupation of journalist in the case of an important football match, the news of which should be supplied by a person employed for the purpose?

Mr. Little

All we can do is employ a correspondent in the country. If he gets off the mark quickly enough, he will be first in with the news.

Mr. Roddy

The Minister did not answer my point directly. I want to know definitely if members of this committee possess special qualifications. The Minister stated, when introducing his Estimate, that the main function of the committee was to advise as to the preparation and arrangement of programmes. If they provide advice in that regard, I assume that they must have special qualifications.

Mr. Little

Yes.

Mr. Roddy

They are selected because of those special qualifications?

Mr. Little

Yes.

Mr. Commons

The Minister told us that about 500 persons had made applications for positions as script writers and so forth which were recently advertised. Does he propose to give an examination to each of those applicants or will he pick out a few here and there at random?

Mr. Little

The applicants state their qualifications in their applications. These qualifications are examined and a certain number of the applications are dropped because the qualifications are not up to standard. After that, the others are examined.

Vote put and agreed to.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again.