On a point of order, while I was speaking on the Minister's Estimate, the Minister made certain representations to you, Sir, that, inasmuch as he was not responsible for the administration of the Institute for Advanced Studies, it was out of order to raise any detailed matters relating to that institute, and, on being so advised by the Minister, I think that you, Sir, in substance, ruled that that kind of discussion did not come within the rules of order and directed me to desist, which, I need hardly add, I promptly did. I direct your attention to the Institute for Advanced Studies Act, 1940, No. 13, Sections 6, 8, 18, 20 and 23, with special reference to Section 23.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 45—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration — (Risteárd Ua Maolchatha).
Is the Deputy questioning the Chair's ruling?
No, the information afforded to the Chair by the Minister. I direct your attention to Section 23, sub-section (2), which says:—
"No regulation made under this section shall have effect unless or until it is approved by the Minister."
the Minister being the Minister for Education. The five sections to which I have made reference all provide that, in the day to day affairs of the institute, decisions taken and acts done will have no validity unless or until referred to and approved by the Minister for Education. I, therefore, submit that, inadvertently, no doubt, the Minister misled you in saying that he had no responsibility for the Institute for Advanced Studies.
I might say that I based my ruling on a reading of the Act of which I read every word yesterday and I still stand over my ruling.
Are we to understand that, when this Vote comes up for passage, a regulation made under sub-section (2) of Section 23 of the Institute for Advanced Studies Act, 1940, to which the Minister has given express approval, and which, under your presiding, I have debated at length in this House, may not be debated again?
When it comes up now?
Yes.
It was decided and agreed, and the Deputy was so informed, that all these Votes would be taken together as usual, and the Deputy debated, so far as he was permitted or was relevant, the Vote for the Institute for Advanced Studies.
I am asking whether, if a brief question is raised, as it is, by well-established custom, legitimate to do, on a specific Vote, it is now ruled that regulations made under sub-section (2) of Section 23 may not be discussed, although they were discussed last year, the previous year and the year before?
There is no such ruling. What I ruled was that the matter the Deputy was endeavouring to raise was not in order because the resignations are given to the board, and not to the Minister.
Then the affairs of the institute may be discussed?
In so far as it is in order. It seems that the Deputy was questioning the Chair's ruling.
On the contrary, I merely desired to clarify the Chair's mind, lest the Chair might inadvertently trespass. I was questioning the Minister's version of his responsibility.
In certain respects, there is responsibility, but not along the lines the Deputy was pursuing. That was my view and still is.
At least, the Minister's protestation that he had no responsibility was misleading.
Before passing on to some other points, I should like to refer further to the question of school buildings.
It is a good thing to change the subject.
It is very well known that there are about 500 schools which are in urgent need of replacement. These are described as category A cases, and of the total of 503 cases in that category, there are 172 cases in which grants have been sanctioned. There are 107 further cases in which sites have been obtained and the cases are well advanced. There are 105 cases in which sites have been offered by the manager and preliminary investigations are being made. There are 119 cases in which sites have not yet been obtained. There is also a number of schools in which the sanitary accommodation is regarded as being very bad, and in fact where it is in some cases non-existent. I have particulars of about 136 cases of schools in which one or other of these positions exists—either very bad sanitary accommodation or no sanitary accommodation. Remedial action has been taken, or is in progress, in 59 cases and grants for new schools have been sanctioned in seven cases. In 20 further cases, a new school is to be provided as a matter of urgency. In 18 cases, managers have been written to, and, in a further 28 cases, the Board of Works have reported that, upon investigation, the sanitary accommodation is not unsatisfactory, and there are four miscellaneous cases.
This question of the sanitation of schools is of great importance and I have been trying to give as much attention as possible to ensuring that, even if we are held up in the school-building programme proper by insuperable difficulties in providing building materials, at any rate things will be put in order, so far as sanitation is concerned.
In recent years, we have been making provision whereby managers who wish to do so can install the septic tank system. Briefly, the position is that, in the case of a school for 72-80 pupils or over, which is estimated to cost, if dry latrines are provided, say £4,000, a grant may be sanctioned for a septic tank system, where local conditions as to water supply and drainage are suitable, if the additional cost does not exceed, say, £1,000, that is, 25 per cent. of the estimated cost of the school with dry latrines. In the case of a school for 64 pupils or less a grant for a septic tank system may be sanctioned if the additional cost does not exceed 30 per cent., that is, say, £750 in the case of a school estimated to cost £2,500. Estimates in regard to this whole matter of school buildings and the provision of sanitary accommodation are almost conjectural at the present time. By the time the work is put in hands, it is very often found that the cost is altogether greater than had been originally anticipated.
I do not think that it serves any useful purpose for Deputies, whether they are seeking publicity on the matter or not, to provide publicity for those within this country and outside it who would be glad to take the opportunity of making as much propaganda as possible out of the fact that in Dáil Éireann it was stated categorically that there were schools in the country which were in such a bad condition that the rats penetrating through the floor boards ate the toes of the children. That is the kind of statement that does not add very much to a solution of the problem. There is also the suggestion that in these schools—I am not denying that a good many of them are in an unsatisfactory condition—the spread of tuberculosis is accentuated very much owing to these conditions. This is a matter that pertains particularly to the Minister for Health and I know that, in due course, the question of the schools, the system of school inspection and all the problems connected with the schools from the health point of view, will come up for review by the new Department of Health.
The medical officers of health have been reporting on the schools from time to time. It is quite easy to take their reports of 1935, 1936 or 1937 and make a case based upon them that the position is very bad indeed. In fairness, we ought to have regard to the reports issued in recent years. A great deal of work has been done, where it was not possible to provide new schools, at least to carry out sufficient reconstruction and repairs to enable schools to be rendered fit for occupation and use for a term of years, until such time as they could be replaced. There are, I think, different standards in use among the medical officers of health, but where it is clearly indicated in the report that a school is unsuitable from a health point of view and should be replaced, every possible step is being taken by my Department to speed on the work of replacement.
It is extremely difficult to obtain a measure of uniformity in this matter, but the reports of the medical officers of health are in the hands of the building branch of the Department of Education and are constantly referred to. The report of the medical officer, for example, of Cork County for 1940, which is referred to in the new "Plan for Education" says that the majority of schools in Cork were unsuitable. According to more recent reports that have arrived from that area, I do not think that statement is fully corroborated at present. I do not know what the actual position is in the county at the moment, until I make further inquiries, but if we are to approach this as we should, as a serious matter that requires all possible attention, we should not exaggerate it. If the idea behind this exaggeration is to try to bring home to me or the Government that the matter is serious, it is quite unnecessary, as we are fully aware of the importance of having all our schools in a proper state, built to modern standards and provided with the best accommodation possible.
Deputy McMenamin has not, so far as I know, given me particulars of schools of the type he referred to yesterday; and although on more than one occasion I asked Deputies, if they were particularly interested in cases of unsatisfactory or insanitary schools, to be good enough to write to me or ring me up on the matter, some of those who spoke in the debate on that aspect have not done so. It is an integral part of the managerial system that the parish, the locality, must contribute its share, not alone towards the building of the school but towards its maintenance, towards keeping it in proper order and repair. Managers in rural parishes have difficulties. The costs of building and equipping a school have gone up very considerably. The amount of local contribution that we are looking for, if we are to maintain even the proportion of one-sixth that we have been getting generally—there are a great many cases in which we have not got that, but take an average of one-sixth throughout the country—means that a substantial sum of money must be raised from a rural parish. The Government I am quite sure will not be prepared to accept the suggestion that the whole of the burden should be transferred to the Central Exchequer. I am always prepared to meet the representatives of the managers, and I think they are aware of that, to discuss the question generally and to try to meet the exceptional difficulties with which they are confronted at the present time. However, there is a limit beyond which the Government will not go in providing assistance.
Already I think the assistance we are providing compares favourably with what is being given elsewhere and is increasing year by year. Every one of us has a duty as a parishioner and as a member of a local community to do his share to assist managers in this matter. It is quite true that the State has readily available a machine for raising revenue, and managers have, as I have said, difficulties. They very often have other works to carry out. They may have to replace several schools in a parish with a small population and limited resources but, while making every allowance for these difficulties and while trying to meet managers and to give them as much assistance as possible, I must emphasise that the initiative in these matters must come from the manager. The site for the school, for example, must be provided by him and that, in itself, is often a difficult enough task and, in addition to contributing towards new schools, maintenance and repairs have to be carried out by him. So that we ought all to do what we can to help managers if we feel that there are things that need to be done and situations that need to be remedied. I suggest that we can all co-operate more usefully in trying to get necessary work done and in helping to provide the resources to enable it to be done, rather than by making exaggerated speeches which greatly distort the picture.
With regard to the question of hygiene, a pamphlet has been recently prepared by the Irish Junior Red Cross Society, after consultation with my Department, containing subject matter for about 70 talks for senior standards on hygiene, food values and health matters generally, and suggestions for incidental instruction of junior pupils. This pamphlet will shortly be issued to managers and teachers of national schools, and teachers will be asked to give appropriate weekly talks of not more than one-half hour's duration in standards V to VIII and to give incidental instruction to pupils in the junior standards.
Deputy Mulcahy referred rather briefly to the question of large classes in the Dublin schools. That is a problem that we have been trying to deal with but, in certain cases, it is impossible to provide additional accommodation. One has to decide either to prevent infant children having access to schools in their own neighbourhood or to have numbers in those schools which are greater than one would like in normal conditions. We have the position in Dublin that, although in what I think I may fairly describe as a small number of cases, there is overcrowding in the infant classes, we have a large number of schools in the centre of the city where we have ample accommodation but, unfortunately, we still have the small number of large schools which find it difficult to expand and where full accommodation cannot be provided for those attending. There are up to 6,000 places available in 50 of the Dublin schools at the present time.
Deputies have referred to the circular issued regarding corporal punishment. As certain publicity has been given to a modification of the relevant rule and to the circular which was issued for the guidance of managers and teachers, I would like to point out that there has been no fundamental change in the rule itself. All that has been done is to indicate more specifically when punishment may not be given. We have had from time to time cases in the Press where unduly severe corporal punishment was inflicted by teachers. Publicity has been given to these and, in addition, a number of complaints has come to me but, to the great credit of the vast majority of teachers, I should like to say that the number of complaints which are brought to notice is very small and I am satisfied that teachers generally, so far as corporal punishment is concerned, abide by the letter and the spirit of the rule but, having regard to these complaints, even though the occurrences may be comparatively few in number, I could not possibly allow them to pass without providing fully for them in the rules. As it seemed that the situation was not entirely covered by the existing rule, I decided to have it amended.
The rule as it stood was:—
"Corporal punishment should be administered only for grave transgression."
To that the following sentence has been added:—
"In no circumstances should corporal punishment be administered for mere failure at lessons."
The second and third clauses of the original rule were:—
"(2) Only the principal teacher or such other member of the staff as may be duly authorised by the manager for the purpose should inflict corporal punishment;
(3) Only a light cane or rod may be used for the purpose of corporal punishment."
The following clause has been added—
"which should be inflicted only on the open hand."
The remainder of the rule stands:—
"The boxing of children's ears, the pulling of their hair or similar ill-treatment is absolutely forbidden and will be visited with severe penalties;
(4) No teacher should carry about a cane or other instrument of punishment;
(5) Frequent recourse to corporal punishment will be considered by the Minister as indicating bad tone and ineffective discipline."
So that the first amendment to Rule 96 (1) is—
"In no circumstances should corporal punishment be administered for mere failure at lessons",
and the second one is in the third clause of the rule, referring to the light cane or rod which may be used for the purpose of corporal punishment, that corporal punishment should be inflicted only on the open hand.
Rinneadh cuid mhaith tagairtí do cheist na Gaeltachta agus raghaidh mé isteach go cúramach sna pointí a luaigh na Teachtaí Dála. Tá fhios ag na Teachtaí a thagann ón nGaeltacht agus a bhfuil suim acu sa cheist go bhfuil feabhas mór anois ar na scoláireachta Ollscoile a tugtar do dhaltaí oiriúnacha ón bhFíor-Ghaeltacht. Tá fhios acu freisin go bhfuil slí curtha ar fáil ag an Aire Airgeadais faoin Roinn Talmhaíochta chun scéimeanna ghéilleagracha faoi fhas trátaí agus faoi fhorbairt éanlaithe chun feabhas a chur ar shaol ghéil-leagrach na ndaoine sna ceantair sin.
Aontaím leis an Teachta MacPháidín, dá bhféadfaimís níos mó a dhéanamh chun saol an aosa óig sna ceantair Ghaelacha a ghealú go ndéanfadh sé maitheas don Ghaeilge. Agus rinne seisean agus an Teachta Mac Pharthaláin tagairt do cheist na drámaíochta sna ceantair úd. Déanfaidh mé iarracht chun an scéal a fheabhsú más féidir mar is dóigh liomsa má tá aon gluaiseacht áitiúil a chuireas ceol nó dráma nó aon tsaghas caitheamh aimsire eile ar fáil, nó páirceanna imeartha a sholáthar do lucht na Gaeltachta, go mór mhór don aos óg, go mba cheart dúinn cuidiú leis na scéimeanna sin chomh maith agus is féidir.
Rinne an Teachta Mac Pharthaláin tagairt do roinnt ceisteanna, cuir i gcás, faoi dheontas an £5 sa Ghaeltacht. Beidh orainn dul isteach sa scéal sin ar fad, is dóigh liom anois mar caithfimíd na rialacha ar fad a bhaineas le duaiseanna, scoláireachtaí, liúntaisí agus mar sin i gcóir na Fíor-Ghaeltachta a thaighdeadh arís. An cheist a chuir sé orm, an mbeadh an deontas £5 ar fáil dá mba rud é ná raibh ach tuismitheoir amháin ar an teallach a raibh an Ghaeilge aige nó aici—de ghnáth ní leor Gaeilge a bheith ag tuismitheoir amháin mura mbeadh an Ghaeilge ina teanga teallaigh. Sé an chaoi a tomhaistear an scéal sin ná, an labhraíonn an páiste an Ghaeilge go blasta, nádúrtha, flúirseach agus, má labhraíonn sé, an é an chaoi atá sí sa bhaile aige ná go labhraíonn siad Gaeilge i gcoitinne ar an teallach. Ní fhéadfainn a rá, dá mba rud é ná raibh Gaeilge ag duine amháin de na tuismitheoirí, gur cruthú ar fad é sin ná faghadh an páiste an £5 ach bheadh orthu an cigire a shásamh go labhartar an Ghaeilge de ghnáth sa tigh, cuir i gcás, go labhraíonn an túismitheoir ag a bhfuil an Ghaeilge aige nó aici de ghnáth í agus na páistí eile agus, ní misde a rá, an sean-athair nó an tseanmháthair nó éinne eile a bhíonn sa tigh. Más rud é go mbíonn an cigire sásta go labhartar Gaeilge de ghnáth sa tigh féadfaidh an páiste an deontas a fháil.
Chuir sé ceist orm faoi choláiste Eanna i nGaillimh. Ní raibh an coláiste sin oscailte le fada mar bhí sí i seilbh an Airm agus, mar gheall ar sin, cuireadh buachaillí ón Iarthar go dtí Baile Mhúirne ach, as seo amach, raghaidh buachaillí Cúige Chonnachta a théas go dtí Coláiste Ullmhucháin go Gaillimh.
Rinne sé tagairt freisin do Scoil Fhursa. Duirt sé ná fuil go leor múinteoirí sa scoil. Mura bhfuil d'fhéadfaimís dul isteach sa scéal arís. Beidh orainn scoileanna oiriúnacha agus níos mó sli a chur ar fáil do dháltaí scoile i gCathair na Gaillimhe. Tá an scéal ar fad faoi bhráid na Roinne. Tá sé á scrúdú agus táthar chun tairiscintí a chur suas chugainn faoi scoileanna nua a chur ar bun innti. Mar sin, ní dóigh liom go mbeadh an Teachta ag súil go mba cheart Scoil Fhursa a mhéadú chomh mór sin agus a fháil amach ina dhiaidh sin nár ghá é sin a dhéanamh. Tá socrú éigin déanta faoi láthair sa scoil tar éis taigheadh a dhéanamh ar an scéal agus tá súil agam go mbeidh na daoine a chuireann suim sa scoil agus i ndul ar aghaidh na scoile sásta leis an socrú sin go fóill.
Mar gheall ar cheist na Gaeilge i gcoitinne, gidh go bhfuil daoine míshásta agus ag rá ná fuil dul ar aghaidh déanta againn mar ba chóir, sílm go ndéanann siad dearmed ar an méid dul ar aghaidh atá déanta. Ní hamháin go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ag an gcuid is mó den aos óg sa tír seo faoi láthair, roinnt mhaith Gaeilge ag cuid mhaith acu, ach tá a lán rudaí eile déanta. Tá teagasc i nGaeilge ar siúl, ní hamháin sna bun-scoileanna ach sna Meán-Scoileanna agus san Ollscoil. Tá scéim faoi leabhra i nGaeilge a chur ar fáil. Is trua liom, mar gheall ar na deacrachtaí a bhaineas le ceárd na clódóireachta faoi láthair, ná tig linn níos mó leabhra Gaeilge d'fhoilsiú mar tá roinnt mhaith acu idir láimh ag na clódóirí. Táimid ag iarraidh socrú speisialta a dhéanamh, más gá é, chun níos mó abhar léitheoireachta a chur ar fáil don aos óg. Tá mé chun iarraidh ar na sgríobhneoirí is fearr atá againn sa Ghaeilge teacht le chéile agus abhar a thabhairt dúinn i gcóir Irisleabhair a thiocfadh amach cúpla uair sa bhliain go dtí go mbeimíd i ndon leabhra Gaeilge a chur ar fáil arís. Tá an cheist ar fad faoi foilsiu na leabhar Gaeilge á scrúdú againn.
Tá an Rialtas ag déanamh a lán chun ceist na Gaeilge a chur ar aghaidh sa Stát-Sheirbhis. Sna comórtaisí poiblí, tá an Ghaeilge riachtanach agus níl fhios agam go bhféadfaí i bhfad níos mó a dhéanamh sa tslí sin ach caithfimíd smaoineadh air seo, gidh go bhfuilimid ag fáil locht ar an mBord Náisiúnta agus Rialtas Shasana faoi go raibh siad ag iarraidh an Béarla a chur síos i sgornaí na ndaoine ina n-ainneoin céad bliain ó shoin, mura mbeadh go raibh na daoine sásta an uair sin agus mura mbeadh dúil a bheith acu an Bearla a labhairt, is dóigh liom ná héireodh leis an iarracht mar d'éirigh leis cé go raibh gach rud eile i gcoinne na Gaeilge an uair sin. Tá a lán rudaí i gcoinnibh na Gaeilge an lá atá inniu ann. Fé mar adúirt mé, cuireann daoine i leith na Gaeilge, agus an chaoi a cheapann siad nach bhfuil ag éirí léi, go bhfuil teipithe againn sna scoileanna. Ní aontaím leis sin ar chor ar bith. Is dóigh liom go bhfuil buaite go maith againn sna scoileanna agus go bhfuil ár gcuspóir bainte amach againn ansin beagnach, ach nuair a fhágas an t-aos óg an scoil tá gach uile rud ag cur ina gcoinnibh Ní ceist domhsa ar fad é sin ach má tá gluaiseachta a chuideodh leis an nGaeilge go nádúrtha, a thiocfadh ó na daoine féin, b'fhearr i bhfad don Rialtas cuidiú leis na gluaiseachta sin agus na daoine féin a spreagadh chun na Gaeilge ná bheith ag iarraidh chuile rud a dhéanamh faoi scéimeanna a thiocfadh díreach ón Rialtas anseo i mBaile Atha Cliath.
Tá rud amháin cinnte. Pé ar bith seans atá againn sílim go bhfuil éirithe go maith linn sna scoileanna agus má dhéanaimid athruithe agus dul ar gcúl anois agus a mhalairt de pholasaí a bheith againn ní bheimid anseo ná ansiúd. Beimid cailte idir an dá rud. Ghlacamar orainn féin an obair seo a chur chun críche nuair a thosaigh an Rialtas Gaolach. Chuir siad ós ár gcóir amach an Ghaeilge a chur ar ais i réim arís mar theanga labharta náisiúnta na tíre. Sin an cuspóir a bhí againn. Sin an rud a chuireamar ós ár gcóir amach agus tá mé cinnte nach ligfeadh an t-aos óg dúinn, fiú amháin dá dteastódh uainn sa Tigh seo é a dhéanamh, dul ar gcúl san obair sin. Caithfídh an sprid a bheith againn. Agus mura mbeidh sprid againn sna obair, mura mbeidh uilig ag déanamh ár ndícheall agus mura dteastuíonn ó na daoine féin an Ghaeilge athbheochaint agus a chur thar n-ais arís mar theanga náisiúnta na tíre, tá faitíos orm nach dtig leis an Rialtas é sin a dhéanamh. Ní thig leis na scoileanna agus ní thig leis an Rialtas atá comhpháirteach leo san obair, an chúis a chur chun cinn, mura bhfuighimis cabhair ó na daoine agus ó na tuismitheoirí. Tá mé cinnte go dteastuíonn ó na tuismitheoirí go n-éireodh leis an ngluaiseacht seo, go mbeadh oideachas na tíre seo bunaithe ar thraidisiúin ár náisiúin féin, ar na rudaí a tháinig anuas chugainn leis na céadta agus leis na mílte bliain. Má leanann siad ar aghaidh mar seo agus má chuireann siad an t-anam sin atá acu isteach san obair níl aon amhras nach n-éireoidh leis. Ní thuigeann daoine áirithe an cheist. Ceapann siad sin gur rud don Rialtas ar fad é.
Nuair a bhí an Rialtas Gallda anseo thuig gach duine go raibh sé de dhualgas air cuidiú in obair náisiúnta mar seo, obair na Gaeilge. Ach ní thuigeann siad é sin anois. Ceapann siad gur obair í seo anois do na scoileanna agus don Rialtas. Ba chóir dúinn an scéal a mhiniú dóibh, go mór mór dos na daoine a bhfuil Gaeilge acu, agus do na daoine a d'fhéadfadh údarás a thabhairt san obair seo, agus dea-shompla a thabhairt do na daoine, daoine a bhfuil fáil acu an pobal a mhealladh agus a spreagadh chun na hoibre. Ba chóir dúinn uilig ár ndícheall a dhéanamh chun an soiscéal a chur ar aghaidh. Ceist an anama agus ceist an sprid is í sin ceist na Gaeilge sa deire, a Chinn Comhairle, agus mura ndéanaimid anam na ndaoine a spreagadh agus a mhuscailt san obair beidh sé an-deacair an Ghaeilge a thabhairt thar n-ais arís. Sin é mo thuairim, a Chinn Comhairle.
The matter of pensioned teachers has been discussed in the Dáil on a motion recently. I have, however, nothing to add to the statement which I made in the House on that occasion. There is no alteration in the position. I was asked whether it would be possible to pay these pensioned teachers their pensions fortnightly. The answer is that the application can be favourably considered if there is a general demand for it. An amendment of the pensions scheme would be necessary but steps thereto are being taken so as to allow of fortnightly payment if desired.
Motion to refer the Estimate back, by leave, withdrawn.
Vote put and agreed to.