asked the Taoiseach whether he has made, in recent months, any direct approach to the British Government regarding Partition; whether he has taken steps to represent to the British Government that responsibility for the continuance of Partition rests solely on them; whether he has indicated, or intends to indicate, to all concerned the basis on which, in the view of the Government, the six north-eastern counties might be re-integrated in the State; and whether he is prepared to make a public statement regarding the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions Oral Answers. - Question of Partition.
Mr. Corish
As I stated in reply to a Dáil question on the 20th March last, hardly a month passes that the question of Partition does not arise in one context or another in our relations with the British authorities and, so far as official action of the Government can hasten the ending of Partition, nothing that can usefully be done is being left undone.
In my speech on the 24th June on the External Affairs Estimate, I pointed out that, in order to secure a settlement for the ending of Partition, it is necessary to get concurrence of wills between three parties—we here who represent the majority of the people of Ireland, those who represent the majority in the separated part of Ireland and those who are the majority for the time being in the British Parliament. The latter, inasmuch as the British Parliament was responsible for the creation of Partition and has the key to its solution, has, of course, a primary responsibility.
As to the basis on which Partition might be ended, and our national territory re-integrated, I have more than once indicated what in my view would be a politically practicable, though not by any means the ideal, solution, namely, that the people of the six north-eastern counties should, if they so desired, retain their present local Parliament with its existing powers, but that the powers at present reserved to and exercised by the British Parliament should be transferred to an All-Ireland Parliament in which the minority would receive their full democratic proportional representation. Effective guarantees safeguarding the democratic rights of the Nationalists within the area of jurisdiction of the local Parliament would, of course, be essential.
In view of the fact that the Taoiseach admits that the primary responsibility for this matter of Partition rests with the British Government, will he consider the advisability of asking the British Government to a conference, so that that responsibility may be brought home to them and some steps taken to enlighten them on the tragedy and outrage for which they are responsible?
The Deputy mentioned that matter before and I think I told him that, if I thought a conference was going to lead to useful results, of course I would ask for such a conference, but one which would not hold out prospects of leading to useful results would not be worth while.
Mr. Corish
The Taoiseach has on many occasions described our attitude towards Partition and told us where the responsibility lies, that is, with the Northern Parliament and the British Government; but would the Taoiseach let the country know what the members of the Taoiseach's Government are going to do about Partition? This is the most favourable time there has yet been and the people should know what the situation is and what can be done about it.
The people know very well what the situation is.
Does the Taoiseach think it expedient to state whether the organisation known as the Connolly Club in Great Britain, which professes to organise Irishmen in Great Britain for the abolition of Partition, is a movement which he and his Party regard as a commendable one or as one to be viewed with circumspection?
That is a separate question and I do not think the Taoiseach has responsibility for the actions of the society referred to.
I understood the original question was to ask what the Government intended to do in respect of the problem of Partition.
Quite. The Taoiseach is responsible there.
I am asking if the Taoiseach thinks it expedient to say at this stage, for the information of our people at present in the United Kingdom, if their participation in the Connolly Club movement helps or hinders the realisation of the unity of Ireland? I think it is right that the leader of the largest Party in this country should express his opinion, so that the young people may know.
Quite, if relevant.
Surely it is relevant to Partition?
Mr. Corish
Yes; they should get a lead from the Government.
They should be told whether it is wise to join that Party or not and whether it is helpful to Irish unity. I think it is not, but I would like to hear what the Taoiseach says. I think they are not.
The Deputy is making a speech.
Would the Taoiseach say whether he has made any overtures whatsoever to the Northern people, indicating how far he is prepared to go to give them safeguards in regard to, for instance, their Civil Service, compulsory Irish, old age pensions? Has he, or will he, prepare a programme that might be acceptable to the Northern citizens as a whole? I have been asked to put that question by people interested.
May I put this last question to the Taoiseach? The Taoiseach has indicated that whilst he does not regard the suggestion he has made as an entirely acceptable solution to the problem, at least it has the roots of progress within it. Would the Taoiseach consider now discussing with the British Government the scheme he has just outlined and ascertain their views on a scheme of that kind, which is a very reasonable approach to the whole problem from our point of view?
The last occasion when I had an opportunity of dealing with this directly and immediately in conference was in 1938. I do not think that the British Government lack any information with regard to our view on the matter. I believe they know it now. They know it fairly well. I have, in private, on many occasions, informally, pointed out that this matter was one of vital importance for themselves as well as for us, and I do not know that anything would be gained by asking for a formal conference at the present time. That is my own view. I would not like to suggest something which would not lead to some useful results. I think it might be more harmful than otherwise.
With regard to Deputy Byrne's question, our hand has been held out to the people in the North for the last 20 or 25 years. If there is not some response, what is the use of talking about such matters as safeguards? Surely you must have some indication from the people to whom your hand is held out that they wish to grasp it, that they would wish to come down to close consideration of the matters involved. If there is any indication of that, then we would be very ready to deal with the matter in detail, both with the people in the Six Counties and with the people in England.
Mr. Corish
The Taoiseach said, I think, that the latest conference was in 1938.
Yes.
Mr. Corish
In so far as we have seen the attitude of the present British Government towards India and freedom for India, would it not be possible to make an approach to the new British Government to see what their attitude is about freedom for Ireland? It is a new Government. Let us try them.
We understand that very fully. I can only assure the House that the thoughts that are passing through the minds of most of the members here have naturally been through my mind, since I have a serious responsibility in this whole matter and have always regarded it as the keystone of Irish relations with Britain for the last 25 years.
Am I to understand from the Taoiseach that this matter has not been discussed between our Government and the British Government since 1938?
Not formally, but it has been informally discussed with members of the different British Governments since.
One matter of urgent peril to a number of our young people is here present. I am asking the Taoiseach, does he think it expedient at least to give these young people who may be led away a word of warning so that in any case, if they are led away, it will not be for want of a warning which can be accepted or disregarded at their own discretion?
This is the same thing practically as the case in the United States, to which the Deputy referred yesterday. The Deputy will understand that I would need to be very sure of my ground. I would have to be absolutely convinced that these were in fact communistic organisations. I am not sure of that. If I were talking without having a sense of the responsibility that I have here, I would probably say they are. That would be my impression. But I do not want to say that here, definitely, until I have satisfied myself that they are. If they are, then there is the second question that arises. Suppose you have communistic groups composed of people who are interested in this country and the unity of this country —people of Irish origin in one way or another—it is very hard to say of these people that they have not an interest in this country, apart from Communism. We have various sections who are interested in this country who hold various views on social, political and other questions, and it is very hard for me to say that any particular section of our people, no matter what views they have, may not be interested in this country, apart from the question of their views on politics or social or economic matters.
There is a danger which I pointed out yesterday, and it is a serious danger, that any groups might try to use the Irish national question for ulterior motives. That is a danger which everybody ought to be alive to. If I were a young man in England or a young man in America, interested in the unity of Ireland or in any Irish cause, I would be very careful not to allow my view in that regard to be exploited for some other purpose. But I cannot give a definite warning and say: "Do not join the Connolly Club. I have information that it is doing so-and-so. I have information that, instead of being interested in serving the Irish cause, it is interested in serving Communism and that it is only using the Irish cause for that purpose." I cannot, you see.
All I want you to do is to warn them to look at it, to study it before they plunge in.
If that is all, I would say that everybody should be alive to the possibility and the probability that outside causes will use any cause like ours for their own purpose, if it is convenient.
"Everybody" includes the British Government?
Yes. That is true— everybody.
Mr. Corish
Is not it important for our people to be warned as to whether such associations are a hindrance or not in the cause of the abolition of Partition?
Again, there is a very difficult question there. Suppose that in the United States there are groups with whose views we cannot agree at all, but who for some reason believe in and help to support the Irish unity movement, it is very hard for us to say that these people must not help. I would have to be satisfied, very definitely satisfied, that they were injuring our cause and that they were using it for an ulterior purpose such as Deputy Dillon has suggested. It is not easy for me to talk here responsibly and to say that such and such are people that should be shunned. All I can say is that if there are Communists, either in this country, in Britain, America, or elsewhere who are trying to use the Irish cause for their own purpose, we should shun them.
Hear, hear.