Committee on Finance. - Vote 31—Fisheries (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (12th Dáil) – Thursday, 3 Jul 1947

Committee on Finance. - Vote 31—Fisheries (Resumed).

Mr. Blowick

I wish to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that the amount voted for this particular section of his Department each year—and it is a very valuable section—is insufficient. It has been brought to my notice that along the east coast of Mayo, with Lecanvey and Louisburgh as centres, a vast and valuable harvest is lost each year for want of sufficient boats and tackle with which to take in the fish. I have been told the fish are so plentiful at times along the west coast that they can actually be scooped with baskets out of the water from a shallow shore.

In one or two instances the Department of Fisheries has helped fishermen to purchase boats and gear. The amount involved has been repaid very easily and within a very short time. In one case a man was assisted to purchase a boat to the extent of £600. The boat needed repairs. Because of the emergency, a perfectly sound boat, with a good engine, could not be provided by the Department and this boat, which cost £600, needed repairs amounting to an additional £300. I shall give the Minister an idea of the harvest that can be reaped along the western coast when I tell him that inside two years the £600, plus the £300 for repairs, were repaid to the Department and the fisherman and his family had a reasonable profit over and above.

Because there are not enough boats and there is a lack of suitable tackle, expert fishermen who know the whole coast from Slyne Head, in Galway, to Killala are leaving the country. The very pick of our fishermen are going away. Last year 11 men, who have expert knowledge of the coast, went to England, and I consider that is a deplorable state of affairs. The fish, which are in abundance there, are left ungathered or left to the mercy of foreign trawlers, which occasionally make poaching raids, and meanwhile our expert fishermen are leaving the country. A good fisherman is an expert just the same as a man in a machine shop or in a trade. A fisherman cannot learn all that is to be known about fishing in a short space of time. He has to be a keen judge of the weather, a good sailor, and he must know about the vagaries of the fish and shoals and the handling of gear. He requires an iron constitution to stand up to that particular life, but it is a good life and it gives a good dividend if the fishermen are properly equipped.

The Minister should devote more money to this section of the Department. I have not any idea whether boats and engines are available but, now that the emergency is over, suitable boats should be available, even though the price may be high. The Department should do everything possible to develop the sea-fishing industry.

Mr. Healy

I consider that the Minister, in taking over responsibility for the fishing industry, is faced with a very big task. There is no doubt the industry is declining. It must be admitted that the prosperity in the industry during the past seven years was largely due to war conditions. Since the termination of hostilities, fishermen find it more difficult to market their fish. That is due to the fact that English fishermen are in a better position to supply the needs of their own markets. The people of this country consume only a fraction of the fish landed here and it is obvious that if the industry is to be prosperous we must find outside markets for our surplus fish or else we must be in a position to preserve or cure our surplus fish so that they can be used in a period of scarcity.

At present we find there is no difficulty in getting a market for our prime fish, but the quantities of prime fish will tend to decrease rather than to increase. This state of affairs is due to the fact that the fishing grounds will be destroyed by over-fishing, both within and without our territorial waters. Our great problem will be to find a market for the huge quantities of mackerel and herrings landed at certain times of the year.

Some time ago I asked a question for the purpose of ascertaining if the Fisheries Department were considering any plans to help the industry on the mackerel and herring side. I was very disappointed to find that no such plans are being considered. It is very discouraging to the inshore fishermen and the people who depend on the industry. It is disappointing to people who invest large sums in boats and gear. There is no doubt that without some assistance the industry cannot carry on. So far as I can see, the industry will have a very difficult future and I can state definitely that the mackerel and herring trade cannot be continued without Government assistance.

Mr. Dillon

What should we do?

Mr. Healy

I shall tell the Deputy. The point is that the fishermen are already losing confidence and they find it is becoming more difficult to earn a livelihood. They are selling their boats. In the locality from which I come, I find that a number of men who were engaged in the mackerel trade for a considerable time are offering their boats for sale. I assure the Minister if he is anxious to help the industry, that he must do so immediately; otherwise it will be too late. I am sure the Fishery Department is not satisfied with the present position and that the officials will admit that the industry has not made the progress which it was hoped it would. I must admit that since this State was established the industry has not got the attention from any Government that it should have got.

I admit of course that the present Government since it took office has done a lot for the fisheries. I remember that in 1932 things were in a very depressed state but the Government encouraged the fishermen to continue the trade. They gave boats and gear on the instalment system. Were it not for that assistance, I think very few fishermen would have been in a position to avail of the past seven prosperous years in the industry. The position now, in my opinion, is that we are coming to the end of that prosperity.

The question must be asked: is the industry worth assisting? Those of us who come from fishing localities know very well that a large number of our people depend on the trade. We know quite well that many of our small farmers along the coast could not live on their small holdings were it not for the money they earn at fishing at certain times of the year. We realise of course that the industry must get assistance, and, considering the importance of the industry, we often ask ourselves why a serious effort is not made to help the trade. The Department appear to think that the activities of the Sea Fisheries Association are sufficient to help the trade but I assure the Minister that that is not so. The Sea Fisheries Association has undoubtedly done good work for the fish trade. It has given boats and gear. It made an attempt to find a market for prime fish but beyond these contributions, it has been of very little assistance to the trade.

It must be borne in mind as I have said already, that we have come to the end of the prosperous period and I think that if the Sea Fisheries Association is to help the trade, it will have to consider plans by which the trade can be helped in a general way. At the present time I am afraid the directors of the Sea Fisheries Association consider only plans which will help the association. If the directors concentrated more on introducing measures by which the problems of the industry could be solved I think it would be far better for the trade. For instance, if they made a serious effort to develop the home market, if they considered methods by which our present system of curing mackerel and herring could be improved, if they considered the question of quick freezing of fish and if they made some effort to procure foreign markets, they would be making a serious attempt to help the trade. So far as I can see, the Sea Fisheries Association has not made much attempt to solve these problems.

Recently at the annual meeting of the Sea Fisheries Association, the chairman made what I consider a very extraordinary speech. In that speech he stated that it was intended to import fish into this country. Considering the fact that we are an island with a huge coastline, it appears extraordinary to me that the Sea Fisheries Association should consider it necessary to import fish, having regard to the fact that at certain times of the year large quantities of fish are landed on our coasts for which we find it very difficult to procure a market. I think if the Association were to consider the question of quick freezing, which British scientists consider a success, we would be able to preserve the surplus quantity of fish available at certain times of the year for use in periods of scarcity.

Again the chairman says that it is intended to import this fish from England on a quota basis. That is a very dangerous line for the association to adopt because members of the association must remember that if we are to import fish from England on a quota basis, there is a danger that the English Government might adopt a similar procedure in regard to our fish. If fish is allowed into England only on a quota basis, it would be impossible for us to find a market for our surplus mackerel. The chairman stated also that it was intended to give the Sea Fisheries Association alone the right of importing this fish. I regard that as a wrong thing to do. I think that the merchants who were engaged in the fish trade long before the association was formed should get an opportunity to import fish if necessary.

Deputy Dillon has asked me how I think the fish trade could be assisted. I assure the Minister that one of the most important ways in which the fish trade could be assisted is by giving us a faster and cheaper train service. That is the whole secret of success in the fish trade. We want a cheaper and a faster train service. I remember up to the second year of the war we had a reasonable service from the railway company. Our fish could arrive at the market within a reasonable time. Now we find, with the service now provided, it takes our fish 24 hours longer to reach the English market than it did with the service given up to the second year of the war. It is absolutely essential that our fish should arrive in the English market in good condition. Recently I was over in England and I visited a number of markets. I was amazed to find that fish from Norway could arrive in far better condition at these markets than our fish could.

Mr. Dillon

Was that at Billingsgate?

Mr. Healy

This was due to the fact that they had a better system of transport. If we sell our fish in England in competition with foreign fish, our fish must arrive there with the least possible delay.

There is another matter in connection with the transport system which in my opinion is going to kill the mackerel trade in South-west Kerry and I am sure the same remark applies to the west coast of Ireland generally. The increase in freights by the railway company has brought about a crisis in the mackerel trade. Up to recently small boxes of mackerel were accepted by the railway company at one quarter, 16 pounds. That is they were charging only for the fish and the box and they were making an allowance for the ice. Now they have insisted on charging freight on the actual weight, that is, charging for the weight of the ice. We know that during periods of warm weather after a short time, no ice exists in the box so that we now find that we are compelled to pay for a weight which does not exist after a short time. That in my opinion is unjust to the trade.

It is an indirect way of robbing the fishermen of their money because in all these cases it is the fisherman pays for it. Along with that they have increased freights by 20 per cent. and these increases mean that it costs 2/-extra per box from Valentia Harbour to Billingsgate, which means that the fishermen will receive 6/- per long 100 for their fish. We have got to consider that the maximum price which the fish buyers can get in the English market is 4/7 per stone. Taking that figure into account the highest price which the fish buyers could pay the fishermen for their fish was about 16/- a cwt. The increase in freight would reduce the price to 10/-. Last week the merchants were informed that the ice company is increasing the cost of ice by 15/- per ton which will probably have the effect of bringing down the price by another 1/-. All the fishermen receive for fish is about 9/- per cwt. which is uneconomic. The cost of running a boat is expensive, the cost of nets is very high, and unless the present Government does something in a big way to help the fishermen in connection with the increase in freight I cannot see any chance of the fishermen making a living out of the industry. I assure the Minister that I am not exaggerating this matter. I come from a fishing locality and I have a fair idea of the fishing industry. I am satisfied from my conversations with fishermen that they cannot carry on at the present price owing to the increase in the freight price. It may be asked what the Government can do about the matter. I referred to this question during the recent debate on Industry and Commerce. I pointed out then to the Minister that I did not agree with subsidies. However, in a case of this kind where the price is fixed in England by the British Government no amount of talk here will have any effect because they will not increase the price. Expenses and freights in this country make it impossible to carry on with the price to be obtained in English markets and the Government has no other course to adopt than to come to the assistance of the marketing trade. There is only one other solution if the Government do not wish to subsidise the trade and that is, to adopt some system similar to that adopted by the Herring Board in England in connection with a minimum price for fish. I consider that the Government must do either of these things because the fishermen cannot carry on at the price which the merchants now pay them owing to the increase in freights. If the railway company is not reasonable in the matter and does not accept the boxes of fish instead of charging the freight—there is a difference between it and a sack of flour, for instance, because in a short time the ice melts and therefore the weight is no longer in the box—I would strongly impress upon the Minister that he should take up the matter and try to get the railway company to see reason or else to subsidise the freights. Otherwise the fishermen in South Kerry and West Kerry and along the west coast will not be able to carry on.

I should like to refer to another matter about which we in Kerry have heard a lot of rumours, that is, the reopening of the Dingle branch line. I consider that the reopening of that line is absolutely essential to the fishing industry in the Dingle Peninsula. One must remember that landings of fish are very irregular. One cannot foretell when there will be heavy quantities and when there will be light quantities of fish. As a result it would be practically impossible for the railway company to give a proper boat service. For weeks there might be no fish. The question, therefore, arises as to whether the railway company would be prepared to keep a number of lorries lying idle until the fish reach the shores. Everyone will agree that it would be too much to expect the railway company to keep too many lorries idle and yet, on the other hand, when there would be heavy landings of fish no lorries would be available.

I wish to refer to another matter which is very common in the Dingle Peninsula. Sometimes perhaps 4,000 or 5,000 boxes a day are landed and it would take at least 20 to 25 lorries to remove that fish from the Dingle area into Tralee. In such a situation I think it could be safely said that the railway company could not procure the necessary lorries at such short notice. Again I assure the Minister that it is absolutely essential for the fishing industry in the Dingle Peninsula that the branch line be reopened.

I want to draw the Minister's attention to the bad landing facilities at some of our chief ports. I have constantly referred to the case of Valentia Harbour. We have, I think, between 40 and 50 boats fishing out of that harbour, but the landing facilities can be described as nothing but primitive. There is only a small slipway and the boats cannot get near it. Despite the fact that the people have been agitating for years to have this pier improved nothing has been done about it. During the winter we frequently find that a number of boats are swept from their mooring at Valentia Island and several have been destroyed. It is absolutely essential that a proper boat shelter be constructed at Valentia Island. That state of affairs has existed for many years. I remember that after the 1914-1918 War the British Government were considering plans to erect a new pier at Valentia Harbour. Since the establishment of this State there has been constant agitation for an improvement in the present slip. As far as I can see everyone in this House will be dead and buried before anything is done about the matter.

The Minister stated that it is intended to set up a deep sea trawling company in this country in the near future. In my opinion, it is essential that we should have a number of deep sea trawlers for the purpose of supplying the home market, because at certain times of the year we find that our small trawlers cannot go to sea and, consequently, we have a scarcity of fish in the country. The question of where we are going to get the crews to man these ships may be asked. At the present time our fishermen are not familiar with the work of deep sea trawlers and if this fleet is to be set up it would be very advisable for the Minister to have a number of our fishermen trained—especially in English trawlers—so that when we could have these boats we would have the crews to man them.

I am glad to see that this Government has at last decided to make a serious effort to prevent poaching within our territorial waters. I consider that not alone should we have boats to protect our coasts but that, at the same time, every effort should be made to extend the limits of our territorial waters. The three-mile limit is not sufficient. Other countries, such as Norway, are not satisfied with the three-mile limit. In order to prevent more poaching within our territorial waters it is absolutely essential that the three-mile limit be extended. The people along the coast are very grateful to the Government for purchasing the corvettes for the protection of our territorial waters. It is considered that this money is well spent. However, I should like to point out to the Minister that it is considered that the speed of these corvettes is too slow.

I have made inquiries and find that these corvettes can do only about 15 knots, while the up-to-date trawlers can do 18, and we have known cases in which British trawlers have been able to escape from the corvettes when those trawlers were found fishing in our territorial waters.

There is at present a limited demand in the American market for cured mackerel, but the fishermen cannot procure barrels. I would like to know if the Department has made an effort to procure barrels. I know that a few companies in this country are considering selling barrels, but they are asking very high prices. The Minister should go into the question of costs with them and see that they charge only a reasonable price. The merchants would not object to a reasonable price. It is very unfair of those companies to charge a very high price as they have more or less a monopoly. I know there are wealthy companies contemplating setting up canning factories for fish. I am very glad to see money invested in such a venture and think those companies should get every assistance from the Department, as it is the first time people have been prepared to invest large sums of money in the processing and canning of fish.

The mackerel industry was a failure on the Kerry coast last year and, as a result, the fishermen find it very difficult to pay for nets and other gear. I would ask the Minister to consider steps by which fishermen who lost nets would be able to purchase new ones at a cheap rate. I know the Sea Fisheries Association has a system by which nets are given and may be paid for in instalments, but in some cases they are asking the applicant to pay a deposit of at least 50 per cent. Very few in the mackerel trade have much money, as they had a bad year last year, and I would ask the Minister to see that these applicants get the nets on the instalment system on a nominal first payment.

There was a very poor demand in the English market last year for certain kinds of shell-fish, particularly mussels, as the type of mussels we were exporting was of an inferior quality to the foreign mussels offered for sale in the English markets. I am afraid the Sea Fisheries Association are neglecting the planting of mussels at Cromane, and as a result we find the purified mussels exported from Cromane are of inferior quality. The Minister should see that the Association restocks those beds immediately.

Mr. Cosgrave

As far as I can discover, one of the great difficulties fishermen experience is that their trade depends on a fluctuating demand. When fish is plentiful, it drops a little in price and people buy it, but when it is scarce the price rises rapidly and people refuse to buy, or purchase only in very limited quantities. The only solution I can see to the problem is to popularise the eating of fish here. We are one of the smallest fish-eating countries in the world and, when we have available readily to us an opportunity to land fish here, the fishermen are not in a position to avail fully of that opportunity.

If we want to ensure a steady demand, we must make sure the public get the fish at a reasonable price. They are obliged to pay too dearly, while at the other end of the scale, the fisherman is not paid a remunerative price. There is too big a gap between what the fishermen receives, having undertaken all the risk and labour, and what the consumer is obliged to pay.

In places like Kerry and parts of the country far away from large cities, the cost of transport inevitably is reflected in the price of fish, but that does not affect to the same degree the catch made by fishermen on the east coast. At the same time, for some unexplained reason, some of these east coast people find that, when they catch fish in large quantities, the demand is insufficient to clear the catch and consequently many of them are obliged to work only on occasional days during the seasons in which catches are plentiful.

The Minister and the Sea Fisheries Association must consider seriously the possibility of quick freezing. I see that portion of the sum of £4,700 increase over last year is to be devoted to experimentation in quick freezing. If we had quick-freezing plant available at certain centres, it would be possible, when there is a glut of fish, to freeze the surplus and keep it for times of scarcity.

This past season has been one of the most difficult fishermen ever experienced, as the severe weather in the winter and early spring damaged or destroyed, not merely gear but boats, and many fishermen were obliged either to undertake financial commitments or go out of business. I have experience of a number of people on the east coast, from Dún Laoghaire to Balbriggan, including the small harbours in between, who suffered seriously as a result of the weather. I do not know how it is expected that those who have lost boats and gear could get back into a position in which they could continue on their former lines. Many of them are fishermen who own a maximum of two or three boats and the majority have only one boat. They work with members of their families and, possibly, with the addition of one or two men. They are people of very limited means and they could not be expected, at present prices, to get back into production on anything like their former scale, in view of the loss they have suffered. The Minister and the association will have to approach this question in a far more lenient manner than they did in the past. The difficulty is not merely the cost but the shortage of gear and equipment.

We should avail now of the opportunities we have to increase the market for fish and increase the potentialities of that market—and the only way I see by which we can do it is to provide facilities such as quick freezing and also quick transport from far-away parts of the country to the big cities and larger towns. Unless the fish is brought quickly and at a cheap rate from the port of landing to the big towns—or, for that matter, to the rural areas—there is no hope for any increase in the home market. The present price of meat would, in the ordinary way, influence people in increasing their consumption of fish. When meat is cheap, people tend to eat more meat, but with the present high price of meat they are limiting their consumption of meat. If they limit their consumption of meat and if we cannot reduce the price of fish, it is unlikely that we will increase home consumption of fish.

There are two other difficulties that fishermen on the east coast have. One is that a number of small harbours are in a bad condition. Under the Harbours Act the larger harbours are provided for. Most of the small harbours are not provided for in that Act and the weather, that has so adversely affected gear and boats, has also affected harbours and unless grants are made available for the building of protective walls and the repair of existing landing places and quays, I cannot see how these harbours can continue to be used. All the harbours along the east coast—Balbriggan, Loughshinny, Skerries, Howth, are now suffering as a result of previous neglect. Their usefulness is seriously impaired because of neglect over a number of years and the very heavy weather in the late winter and spring. In fact, only portions of some of the harbours can be used. I would suggest to the Minister that increased attention must be paid by the Sea Fisheries Association or directly by the Department to the harbours that are not covered by the Harbours Act.

The other difficulty that fishermen on the east coast have is the extent to which poaching by foreign trawlers is carried on. Even in Dún Laoghaire, which is a large harbour, foreign trawlers come into the coast. I do not know whether there is much in the point that Deputy Healy made about the corvettes not being fast enough to catch the trawlers but the fact is that the corvettes are very rarely there when the trawlers are there. The system whereby responsibility for coast protection has been transferred to the Department of Defence has not so far improved the protection given. Generally, the procedure adopted when a foreign trawler is sighted is that the guards ring up the nearest military post or the nearest port at which a corvette is stationed and inform them that there is a trawler within our territorial waters. That system is totally inadequate. By the time the Guards have phoned and the corvette gets out, the trawler has gone. The amount of protection given on the east coast is negligible and poaching by foreign trawlers has, from time to time, completely wiped out any possibility of the local fishermen getting a catch. It even happens in a prominent place where they are in full view. It is not merely off the smaller harbours. They have even come into the bay of Dún Laoghaire. I suggest that that is a matter which must be given more attention and immediate attention if fishing is to be protected.

I notice from the Minister's speech that negotiations have been going on concerning the exclusive limits of our territorial waters. The sooner that these negotiations are concluded the better but, pending their conclusion, we ought to ensure that our territorial waters are protected for our fishermen. The corvettes and the facilities provided by the Department of Defence at the moment are inadequate.

Mr. Murphy

During my 24 years' membership of this House, no subject has been discussed so consistently along the same lines as this particular subject of the fisheries industry. It is most regrettable that after that long period of years there should be the same complaints and criticisms. The one gleam of hope in recent years was the prosperity in the fishing industry during the emergency period. I would like the Minister to give the House some assurance that that prosperity is not to be followed by a slump, such as occurred in the industry in former years in post-war periods. I agree that the question of transport enters into this matter. I want to say, particularly on behalf of the people in the fishing centres in West Cork, Schull, Baltimore, Courtmacsherry, and even the smaller places, where the industry has been of prime importance in providing employment, good wages and in promoting the general good of the district, that they are anxious about this matter. The present indications of a possible closing down or non-resumption of rail services in those areas for a considerable time to come will have very serious reactions. There has been a good deal of talk about the need for establishing industries in various towns and other places. I know of no industry which, if it were reasonably prosperous, would give such quick results as this industry would give or such continuous and well-paid employment. In that connection, it is a tragedy that the specialists in this industry, the ordinary fishermen, extremely skilled and proficient in their work, should have gone in considerable numbers out of the country and that a number are seeking facilities to follow them.

Great advantage would flow from the development of inland trade in fish. It is a fact that in the inland towns in County Cork the supply of fish is irregular and inadequate and that there is a scramble to get whatever fish is available. Generally, a taste for fish requires to be cultivated amongst our people. Interest should be stimulated in fish as a food. I suggest that the opportunities for the development of the fish trade are not being pushed to the extent that is possible.

I live about 15 miles from the sea. The supply of fish to the town of Dunmanway is an event in the house-keeper's week. On some Fridays there is a certain amount of fish available, good fish on some occasions and on others a small and inadequate supply. The parts of the town nearest to the place of arrival of fish get a certain amount and the people in the other parts of the town do not even know that fish has arrived. That is all wrong. When I think of the extensive County of Cork, with its large number of inland towns, I realise that, apart altogether from the possibilities of markets abroad, the development of the home market is one of the most important aspects of this matter.

I should like to hear from the Minister what are the immediate prospects in connection with the experiments in deep sea fishing that have been under consideration for some time and in which the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and I and other Deputies from West Cork are interested. It was suggested that Kinsale Harbour should be utilised for the purpose. I should like to hear more of what has been done about this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle took the Chair.

Mr. Murphy

Can the Minister inform us what is the present position regarding the representations that have been made in connection with the provision of a slip at Old Head of Kinsale? The Minister's advisers who are extremely courteous and helpful in such matters, and particularly so in those constituencies where we have fishing areas, will be able to tell him the story underlying that demand. Due to extraordinary weather conditions and storms in the past the pier at the Old Head of Kinsale was completely swept away. The proposal is that, in the interval until the pier is restored in the manner required, a slip should be provided there to facilitate those who are engaged in the fishing industry.

There is not much more that I have to say except to emphasise the points that have already been made. May I ask that the other marine works which have already been the subject of consideration by the Department of Fisheries and of consultation between that Department and the Board of Works and its Employment Schemes Branch should be pushed forward as rapidly as possible. I feel that the people of the country would like to know that the Minister has confidence in the fishing industry. I trust he will be able to give the House an indication of a policy calculated to obviate a slump in that industry such as occurred on previous occasions. I refer particularly to the slump that followed the first world war.

I trust that a slump such as that will be avoided on this occasion. The Minister, I think, is in a better position to meet a situation of that sort than were his predecessors to deal with the slump that occurred in 1918. That slump left a heavy legacy of financial difficulty both for the Department and the fishermen because of their inability to meet commitments which they had entered into during the peak point of prosperity while the war was on. When that slump occurred, the fishermen found that there was no fishing industry for them, and their boats were left derelict. They had to default in the repayment of the loans due to the Department simply because there was no other way out for a number of them. The Department over a long number of years had an extremely hard and painful task in connection with that matter. It is hoped that such a position will not arise again.

The Minister is now starting off fortified by the prosperity which the industry has enjoyed in the last few years, and with advantages that his predecessors at the time I have referred to did not enjoy. I hope that he will be able to give some indication of the fact that the opportunities which are available to him will be capitalised to the fullest extent: that on his advent to office as Minister for Fisheries he will be able to give an indication to the fisherman and to the people of the country that he has confidence in the industry and of his hopes for the future.

Deputy Cosgrave referred to what I regard as a very important point when he said that the increase in the price of meat is bound to have a very favourable effect on the sale and consumption of whatever fish is available. I feel sure that situation has been examined. It is one in which there should be great scope for development in the immediate future. I suggest to the Minister that in those areas which are closely associated with the fishing industry facilities should be provided for sending fish inland. We know that in the last few years it was difficult to do that. We had a number of people who were willing to undertake the transport of fish. A number of them converted old cars into small serviceable lorries for the purpose of sending fish inland over distances of 30 and 40 miles. They applied time and time again for an extra petrol allowance but met with the inevitable negative reply. At present there is not the same difficulty in getting petrol and oil. I think the Sea Fisheries Association could render a great service by selecting reliable people who would be prepared to undertake that work. The transport of fish to inland centres is a matter of very great importance. I believe that if people could get the fish brought to their doors they would welcome such an effort and would be prepared to pay a reasonable price for it. I think every effort should be made to arrange for the transport of fish to inland centres.

Mr. Bartley

It is obvious, from some of the speeches made, that people interested in the fishing industry expect that a slump will follow the prosperity which the industry enjoyed during the war, a slump such as that which occurred after the first world war. People seem to anticipate that the British trawlers will be back again, and that you will have much the same situation as that which arose then. To meet that situation appeals are being made to the Minister to organise the industry on some new basis. I think there is not much use in trying to rationalise the marketing of fish here unless something is done about the catching of the fish. It seems to me that we have looked upon the fishing industry as a sort of semi-social service, one that is well able to stand on its feet in times of international stress, but that, when peace returns, is a sort of cinderella industry. Now that we have a naval service, I think the Minister should consider utilising it in an effort at rationalising the catching of the fish. I do not know exactly how that can be done. Perhaps something might be done on the lines of the Army Construction Corps. The idea would be to charter trawlers in countries where they can be got, with expert instructors, and then recruit your personnel in those towns where you would be likely to get young men interested in the sea. They could be instructed in deep-sea trawling. It might be possible to incorporate them in the naval service, where they would be taught a useful vocation. After their discharge from that service, it is possible that they would be able to find employment with boat owners or perhaps they might, in conjunction with their fellows, embark on deep-sea trawling on their own. I think that, if a serious effort is to be made to put the fishing industry on a successful footing, an organisation such as the naval service must be worked into it. I do not see any reason why the cost of a scheme such as I have suggested should not, in the initial stages, become a charge on the Department of Defence. We have built up a considerable inshore fishing industry, but it is one that is very much subject to the vagaries of the weather, so that when the fishing cannot be carried on it is not able to give us the supplies that we cannot get from any other source. I think if we had this other organisation working in conjunction with and dove-tailing into the inshore industry, we could practically guarantee a continuous supply of fish of all kinds.

At the present time I think there is only one place in which you can get prime fish in anything like continuous supply, and that is here in Dublin. In Galway we only get what the fishermen cannot find a market for in Dublin. Usually we cannot get anything other than whiting and, possibly, the commoner sorts of shoal fish. I do not think that should be so. It was common enough pre-war to see fish from Grimsby coming into Galway and Galway fish coming to Dublin and the trains carrying the fish passing probably at Athlone. If you are to popularise the use of fish you must guarantee a supply and you must try to guarantee a supply in variety. There is no use in giving the prime fish all to Dublin and possibly to Cork, exporting what you do not sell there, and leaving the rural parts of the country to use the commoner sorts. I do not think you will build up a nation-wide market on these lines. Therefore, I think that the object ought to be to supply our rural places with the prime sorts as well as the cities. But, again, continuity of supply is very essential to success in any attempt of that sort.

The next point I want to put before the Minister is that it is obvious, from speeches which have been made and views expressed elsewhere, that we have to face a period of slump in the industry. If that is so, I should like to repeat that this question of roping in our naval service to this industry ought to be seriously considered by the Government. I think it ought not to be looked upon as an ordinary effort by the industry, during the initial stages at all events, and that the Department of Defence ought to be asked to bear that part of the cost. We have, as I pointed out, the double advantage of guaranteeing a supply and training men in a very useful industry.

I should like to ask the Minister to explain one or two things to which he made reference in his opening speech. He said that it was proposed to take over the estuarian fisheries and to abolish netting in fresh water. Does that apply to all the several fisheries in the country? Does the taking over of the estuarian fisheries mean that the men who have been making a livelihood from salmon fishing in these estuaries are to be deprived of the right to fish in them in future?

Mr. Healy

On the marketing side of the industry, due to the increase in freights and bad transport service.

Mr. Dillon

I understood Deputy Bartley to say that the general impression was that there was going to be a slump in the fish business analogous to that which we had to face after the last war. Does it make common sense to say that, at a time when you anticipate that the fish industry is about to experience a sharp slump, you should buy a fleet of trawlers and go into a market which you say you believe is going to be overburdened with fish? That does not seem to me to be a realistic approach to life at all. Could Deputies imagine somebody saying that he foresaw a vast surplus of oats in Canada and elsewhere and that the price of oats was expected to slump heavily and that, therefore, we ought all to go out on a "grow more oats" campaign? I think that kind of talk is daft, and I want to say quite definitely to the Minister that I hope to God we never have deep-sea trawlers. I think it is a rotten industry.

I remember once—I think Deputy McMenamin may also remember the incident—a Scottish trawler put into Rathmullan because there was a dead man on board. One of the men there asked if they wanted a priest to come down to see the remains and consider whether it would be proper to anoint them. He was told: "Not at all; that fellow never saw a priest." The local man asked who he was and was told they did not know who he was. When he asked what was his name, the reply was: "We do not know; we always called him Joe." The man asked had he any friends or relatives, or do you know anything about him? and the skipper of the trawler replied: "God bless your heart, we do not bother about who these fellows are—they come and go." The general impression I got was that the men on that trawler were regarded by the skipper as so many animals. They were of no importance whatsoever.

Mr. Healy

That was an English trawler?

Mr. Dillon

A Scottish or an English trawler. I asked these men up in County Donegal if that was typical and the impression I got from them was that, in that deep-sea trawler trade, the conditions and treatment of men generally were as bad as those in any industry in the world, that it was a beastly kind of life and the last industry I should like to see established here as a training ground for young men. If we had six deep-sea trawlers, I do not suppose we could provide, on the trawlers, employment for more than 100 men. The expense is gargantuan and the results, so far as I can see, virtually nothing, except to provide us with a marketing problem which will be a headache for successive generations.

If it were an industry which would confer any material benefit on anybody, it might be examined, but, so far as I am concerned, I hope to God this Government will never be responsible for committing us to the deep-sea trawler trade, unless and until it is looked into very much more closely than those who call out for it seem to have looked into it, and unless we are satisfied that it would be economically possible for us to operate it under conditions which, according to our standards, would be tolerable to the kind of men whom we would expect to man it.

What is the use of saying: "Develop the home market"? What does that mean? It makes no sense just to say: "Develop the home market." Any country shopkeeper who wants a stock of fish on Thursday can buy them— nothing to stop him. He can purchase sole, salmon, whiting, herring, mackerel in season; he can order all the fish he wants and put it on his slab on Friday and sell it to whom he can.

How will you make the people eat fish if they do not want to? Surely, it is a complete caricature of the situation to pretend that the rural population are going around with their tongues out looking for fish? I was for 25 years in Ballaghaderreen and I never saw them buying anything but herrings that would nearly chase you out of the house. It used to be the bane of my life for a countrywoman to leave her basket in the shop. She would run everybody out of the shop. You would have to take the basket out very often and hang it on a hook in the yard. But if you tried to persuade her to buy whiting or plaice or those kind of fish she would laugh at you.

If the thing is practicable, I assume that Deputies who advocate it mean that it could be made profitable. If that is so, why does not somebody do it? I did it myself for a while. I sold fish and I could have gone on selling fish except that some Emergency Powers Order was made fixing a maximum retail and wholesale price for fish, but they forgot the freight. By the time you paid the maximum wholesale price and put on the price of freight the fish would cost more than we were allowed to sell it at and, inasmuch as I knew the Department of Industry and Commerce would be delighted to send in an inspector to catch me charging above the statutory price, I was afraid to put on the price of the freight and I had to give up selling fish. Prior to that I could sell a considerable quantity of fish. But to pretend that there is a market on which to found a trawler industry or any enduring inshore fishing, is fantastic.

Our people are not a fish-eating people. How many Deputies would eat fish unless on a Friday? I would not eat fish if you paid me. I might sit down to luncheon with a man and, when I call for a bit of meat and he would call for fish I would look at him and say: "My God: is this a fast day?" If he said it was not I would be inclined to put him in the category of eccentrics. How many people here would eat fish unless on Friday? The fact is we are not a fish-eating people.

The bulk of the fish market in England consists of wealthy people who eat fish as a second course, and the fish and chip shops, for which there is an immense demand in England which does not exist in this country. There used to be a fish and chip shop in Parnell Street, but the only one now left is on the Quay, whereas, if you go through the back streets of London, those shops are nearly as common as are public houses in this city.

I do not see that there is very much you can do to develop the domestic market except one thing, and I advocated it often here before: that is, to purchase herring and mackerel and sell them to the fishwomen for 4d. a doz., so that they could revert to the old custom which obtained when I was a child, and that was, two herrings for a penny, at the corner of Marlborough Street. I remember when I was young you could buy two herrings or mackerel for a penny in Britain Street, as it was then, or Moore Street, or James's Street or Thomas Street. In the times in which we live it would be a comforting thing to know that there were baskets of herrings and mackerel all through the town which people could buy at two a penny if they wanted. It would be all nonsense for people to say they are hungry, destitute and miserable if there are herrings at two a penny.

A Dublin Bay herring is as nice a thing as you could get, and there is the same nourishment in a good fresh mackerel as there is in a chop. When you start comparing the demand you could create, even for herring at two a penny in the streets of Dublin, with landings of crans of herrings, the thing is nonsense. The demand you could create for herring in this city would be no substantial relief for the problem of the herring and mackerel industry here. At certain portions of the year there are vast quantities of herring and mackerel which they must be able to cure for foreign markets. We must cure large quantities of fish or else throw them back into the sea. Before the war we lost the German market for salt mackerel which, as Deputy Healy knows, was a considerable market.

Mr. Healy

Mackerel was never sent to Germany.

Mr. Dillon

I always thought they sent salt mackerel there, or was it herring?

Mr. Healy

They sent it to America.

Mr. Dillon

Mackerel were sent to Hamburg for years and to America, too, and we lost the Hamburg market to the Scandinavians. We lost the Hamburg market and we could not get it back. Then something happened to the Americans and they gave up eating mackerel. Their taste changed and there was nothing we could do about it. I am told now that the British Board of Trade is pressing the fishermen in England to send fish to some hard currency countries that badly want it and are pointing out that if a particular type of curing that is customary in these countries and quick freezing, to which Deputy Healy referred, are employed, a valuable addition to the dollar pool could be secured. The countries that they name are North, Central and South America, the Philippines, Sweden, Switzerland, Portugal and the Portuguese Colonies. They point out that the quick freezing of fish and certain types of curing are badly wanted there. We are not accustomed to trading with those countries, Central and South America, the Portuguese market or the Philippine market, and in my submission it would be a great mistake for us to try to break into these markets unless we have in our employment experts who understand the trade.

I invite the Minister for Agriculture to consider the procedure adopted by Barytes Limited in Sligo. They thought we were going to put the devil in the bag with barytes in Sligo but sensibly enough when they found the deposit, instead of trying to work that deposit on their own, they sought an expert with a knowledge of the peculiar problems associated with the mining of barytes. They knew that the British Board of Trade wanted barytes as a substitute for some other component of paint that could not be obtained at the time and they went to the British Government and said: "Will you find for us an expert in the mining of barytes? If you will provide us with such an expert, we have the barytes and the capital and we will take out the barytes and sell it to you and keep you going." The Board of Trade did find such an expert. They found a fellow who had to fly from the South of France where his family had barytes interests. They seconded him to Barytes Limited. He was general manager until they got the machine going and until he had trained three or four young Irishmen. Then he went back to his own country after it had been reconquered.

Now the British Treasury want dollars and under our dollar pool arrangement any dollars we earn are put into the common pool. I think it would be a sensible thing to go to the British Board of Trade and say: "We observe that you are anxious to use fish exports to get dollars and hard currency. We have a great deal of fish at the moment and we should be glad, if you have a first class man in this particular line of preparing fish for export, if you would send him over to us and let us have his services for a couple of years. We shall see if we cannot supply some of these markets, earn dollars and let them go into the dollar pool." Once we make contacts with these markets and have learned the tricks of the trade in these markets, we might retain them hereafter, though of course we might discover when the normal channels through which they formerly obtained their supplies were re-opened that they might be able to obtain fish from other sources. I think, however, it is worth trying and we could bespeak the necessary assistance from the Board of Trade inasmuch as the British Treasury would derive material benefit from our capacity to earn dollars for the common pool.

So far as I can see, I am the only person—and I am not a fish expert at all—who has made the Minister concrete proposals calculated to increase the consumption of fish. They may be bad proposals or they may be good but at least they are practical proposals. When I listened to men who are experts, and whom I know to be experts, I was disappointed that I did not hear something which would tend to relieve the situation. Listening with the desire to hear them say that I am obliged to say that I was not much wiser when they sat down than when they stood up. I should say that Deputy Healy did suggest that we should prohibit imports of fish. Is that not so?

Mr. Healy

No, no.

Mr. Dillon

Then I misunderstood him and I beg his pardon. I should say that I have received some representations from my friends in Gweedore and they say that I should approach Deputy McMenamin, Deputy MacFadden and some of our friends on the opposite side to protest against the proposal to remove the embargo on imports of foreign fish which they say, is a detriment to the livelihood of our inshore fishermen and they request that the embargo be re-imposed. They say that no later than the week ending June 14th 70 boxes of foreign fish were imported when the fish markets of Dublin were glutted and fish, to wit, skate, had to be dumped in Donegal.

Now I do not know that my friends in Donegal might not be very well advised to consider some of the observations of Deputy Healy in this regard. If we are to prohibit imports of fish into this country from Britain, what will we do if the British start prohibiting exports of fish from this country to Britain? I am obliged to say to my friends from Gweedore that in this case I should not like to see any prohibition of imports. I am a free trader and I do not believe in prohibiting the import of anything any more than I believe in prohibiting the export of anything. Given a free field, I believe our people can hold their own with anybody. If we start putting up barriers we may find that the barriers put up against us will injure our trade much more than our barriers will injure foreign traders. However, I have told the Minister what my friends in Gweedore want and, having stated that I do not agree with it, perhaps the Minister will be all the more ready to concede their demand.

Mr. Donnellan

They will not write you any more.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy does not understand the Donegal people. They never write to their friends merely for what they want to get out of them and they are never cross with a man if they believe that he is acting honestly. They are a decent people.

The last thing I want to mention is trout. One of the most valuable assets this country could have is brown trout. I hear from my neighbours, and I know from my own experience, that you will find that some rivers have declined and that you can never get any satisfactory explanation why that has happened. The same is true of lakes. There was a time when Lough Arrow was one of the greatest trout lakes. You could be flogging it for a month now and you would not get a trout out of it. On the other hand, Lough Gara, which most fishermen would not bother about formerly, is now nearly as good as Lough Sheelin during the Mayfly season. Various experts have various theories, particularly as to how one can most effectively restore the trout population of rivers.

Some will say here that the best way is to pour in fry. Others will point out that to take one pike out of the river will do more to restore the trout than the putting in of a million fry and that the method is to take out the coarse fish. Others will suggest cleaning the rivers, while others will suggest putting in weeds.

I want to suggest to the Minister that he should invite the boards of conservators throughout the country to choose from their own number a committee consisting of, say, two representatives from each conservation board to put forward their views as to how best the trout of the various rivers in Ireland can be increased. I think he will get, probably, four or five diametrically contradictory recommendations. I suggest to him that, instead of frowning on that, he should say to them: "Now I am putting you under no obligation to be unanimous— far from it. I would much sooner if you would break up into four of five schools of thought. Send me in your reports exactly as you draft them." We have seven or eight fishery districts in the country. If I were the Minister I would take my seven or eight districts and if I got five schemes from five groups of men who, whether I agreed with them or not, I was satisfied were experienced, well-intentioned and anxious to help, I would say: "Very well, I am going to give directions that each of these five schemes will be put into operation— one in each fishery district—and we will keep each of these plans in operation for a five or a ten-year period. At the end of that time the Minister for Fisheries or whoever he may be will consult his record and we will seek by a method of trial and error to find the best way." It may be that a different method is suitable for a different district, but at least we will put an end to this situation where nobody knows what the solution of the tendency of a great many of our trout rivers to decline is.

I am convinced that money spent in that way would come back to us in great abundance, not perhaps in a way that one would directly connect with the expenditure, but in tourist traffic and expenditure in hotels, expenditure on the people who tie flies and all the various local activities that are associated with the fishing business. I believe if the Minister were responsible for that kind of reform his name, to my utter astonishment, would be favourably remembered in the future, if not as an expert on agriculture at least as a friend of the fish.

Mr. Breslin

The Irish fishing industry had a fairly prosperous time during the last five or six years of the war but now that we are entering on more normal times and, naturally, meeting with a good deal of up-to-date competition many people who are in close touch with the fishing industry feel that the next five or six years will prove the testing time for the fishing industry in this country, and especially for the organisation behind that industry. During the 1914-18 War we had flourishing conditions in the industry but six or seven years later we found the industry in a very depressed state. In that connection I would like to pay here a tribute to the Sea Fisheries Association for the spade work done by them in those days of depression in helping the industry generally and assisting fishermen with boats and with gear to resume an industry that was falling into disrepute. To-day we must ask ourselves if our plans and outlook for the future are so efficient and so up-to-date that we can hold our own with the foreign fishing fleets operating off our coasts, whether we can look forward to an expansion of the industry in our own country, and whether we can with our present methods recapture the markets lost to us as a result of the last war. These are the questions which at present agitate the minds of those who are interested and who are close to the fishing industry. In my opinion our plans will have to be very drastically improved and revised if this industry is to hold its own at all either in this country or outside it. There is, for instance, great danger to our cured herring trade which is so important to Donegal and which has been referred to by other Deputies here. If we are to allow Great Britain to dump her herrings here I am afraid that that important industry will be lost to us altogether despite what Deputy Dillon says to the contrary.

Mr. Dillon

What will we do if Great Britain stops us from dumping our herrings there?

Mr. Breslin

That is a hypothetical question. The fact of the matter is that we are allowing Great Britain to dump her cured herrings here with the result that our buyers when they go around to the markets which they have attended for the past 100 years are informed that the market is glutted and that there is no market for the cured herring.

Surely any Irish industry should look to the home market and should preserve it for our own people. That outlook bears fruit in all other Irish industries and I feel that the Department of Fisheries should hold the view that they should not allow Great Britain to dump her fish here in large quantities to the detriment of our own people. As foreign markets may not be available to us for obvious reasons for many years, surely it should be the policy of the Department of Fisheries to ensure that the Irish market will be reserved for our own fishermen. One side of the fishing industry which should be of great interest to everybody is the home market. Donegal is a maritime county. Even so we find great difficulty in getting fish there on any day of the week. Now and again we may get fish, but very irregularly. I feel that if supplies of fish were made available at regular intervals the people would have no objection to paying a reasonable price for it. It is a surprising fact, but nevertheless it is true, that most Donegal hotels, in order to ensure regular supplies of fish, order it direct from Dublin because if they depend on any other means they will be without fish. Surely it should be the duty of any Department if they are interested in fisheries to ensure that supplies of fish will be available in most areas where there is a market.

Mr. Dillon

Would you have them set up a fish establishment?

Mr. Breslin

In Donegal we have fish establishments but, unfortunately, there is no fish.

Mr. Dillon

I do not know what is wrong.

Mr. Breslin

I am afraid that the organisation behind our fishing industry is not what it should be because, if it were, fish would be available three or four days a week. I was glad to hear, in the Minister's opening statement, that supplies of gear would be improving this year. For the last month, we have had excellent salmon fishing in Donegal and all the boats engaged in that fishing did very well, but unfortunately only a fraction of the boats could take part, as they had no gear and were unable to get it. That has happened around Gweedore, Burtonport and Arranmore. It should be the duty of the Department to see that supplies of gear will be forthcoming and at reasonable prices, as the prices during the last five or six years were exorbitant—due to war conditions and not to any action by the Department.

I feel we are adding very much to the work of the Minister for Agriculture in asking him to take over what should be one of our most important industries. I am not detracting from his capabilities in any way, but I feel that the Minister for Agriculture has sufficient to do in this country in providing food for the people without asking him to take over a Department which should be as important as any other Department of this State. I hope that some day we will have a separate Minister for Fisheries, instead of asking a very busy Minister for Agriculture to look after one of our main industries.

Mr. Anthony

In successive years I have contributed to the debate on the fishery Estimate and, even at the risk of having to repeat myself, I must go over almost the same ground. I was interested to hear Deputy Dillon speak about the decline in the trout population. I have a fairly large experience of both salmon and trout angling in various parts of the Twenty-Six Counties and I think every angler for salmon and trout will bear me out, that there has been a considerable diminution, especially in the trout population, over a period of years.

That diminution was intensified during the war period, due to at least one cause—the high price being paid across the Channel for sea trout, white trout or brown trout or Loch Leven trout, as they are better known. Any species of trout was fetching very high prices in the English market and that was one of the chief causes of the diminution.

Several estimates have been made, none of which could be described as strictly accurate, but I am sure, if the Minister makes some inquiries, he will find that in his own Department he has some very expert anglers and authorities on this very question. It is calculated that trout angling in this country could be made worth more than £1,500,000 annually, because of the fact that across the Channel— where I did a bit of fishing, too, for salmon and trout—it is a rich man's sport, whereas in this country, which is known as the "sportsman's paradise", the trout fishing, at any rate, is free in nearly every district I know of. By a process of elimination we might arrive at some of the root causes of this falling off in the trout population. Let us take first the question of poisoning streams. I can say with some authority that that is dwindling, and has been dwindling very considerably in recent years. Streams have not been poisoned to the extent they were some 20 years ago. That is a practice which is dying out, I am happy to be able to report.

The next cause is the use of explosives for blowing up salmon and trout pools in some areas. That is not done now to the same extent as it was done previously. Then we have the gravest danger of all and one which is on the increase—an increase which was very marked during the war period, from 1939 to 1943—that is, the taking of larger fish out of the small streams by means of night lining. These night liners have adopted a new technique now. The Minister may be aware of if, though I am not suggesting that he is either a poacher or a night liner. The line was attached to the bait hook and loaded and then thrown into the centre of a pool and the line hitched on to a stone or a tree on the bank of the river, or anchored in some other way. The new technique they have got is to wade into the river in thigh boots, so that even an astute gamekeeper or a civic guard—who, by the way, deserve great credit for their activity in preventing a good deal of poaching—or a water bailiff cannot discover where the night lines have been put down. If they were put down by the old methods, they were difficult enough to discover, but they are far more difficult now and it is almost impossible to discover where they have been put by the new type of poacher. I know a case where there were only four or five rods in a village; now there are 30 or 40. This does not mean they are all anglers who fish in a sporting way. The rod is used as an excuse to go to the nearest stream and wade in and put down these night lines, which I regard as the greatest enemy of fish life in the country to-day.

In Cork for a long number of years past we have had our own hatcheries. I am grateful to the Department of Fisheries for helping in many ways in the initial stages of establishing our trout hatchery. They have helped us by giving us some ova and on many occasions by giving us some yearling trout. That has done something to populate the streams as they should be populated, but unfortunately, notwithstanding our efforts, a falling off has been shown. We know that, to some extent at any rate, the falling off is due to children not being taught at school to save these little fish in the summer time when these streams are very low and the small fish are easily taken out. Some decent anglers, who do not think they are doing any harm, have been putting these fish in their baskets, creels or bags and by taking out these useless fish they are depopulating the streams to a serious extent. However, there again there has been some improvement. The growth of a number of anglers' societies and clubs means that numbers of people who before would have taken out under-sized fish and put them in their fishing creels now throw them back into the river immediately after hooking them. The encouragement of other clubs to form their own hatcheries would be very helpful in increasing fish in the rivers. We know that over the past 20 or 30 years there has been an enormous increase in the number of anglers. The sport has become very popular. The Minister should consult some of the men in his own Department—I know some of them who are experts and whose advice would be worth having—if he intends to develop inland fisheries as they could be developed with considerable financial and other advantages to the country. The streams should be looked after and properly bailiffed. That would help to make fish more prolific. If our rivers are well-stocked it will attract, as it has attracted in the past, some of the best sportsmen from the other side. I have met many of them who came here to observe the customs and habits of the country and to spend their money here. Fishing attracts a good type of sportsman to the country. The Minister could devise some means of policing the rivers not already policed, if not by uniformed men, at least by giving the boards of conservators some financial assistance to enable them to employ extra bailiffs.

I should like to hear from the Minister some statement as to his attitude in relation to some of the boards of conservators. A very wise step was taken by the Minister's predecessor in regard to the position in Galway which was antediluvian in every respect. There had been a system of voting by proxies and the riparian owners and the ordinary fishermen were almost prohibited from fishing on many parts of the river because of proprietary rights being held by one person. The system of voting by proxy should be abolished and I am speaking as one who is entitled to a vote. I remember being beaten by one vote on a board of conservators, where all the proxies were used. That does not influence me because it happened some time ago. Certainly, something should be done to curb voting by proxy. If persons who have fisheries want to vote, let them come to the elections and vote. Under the old system of voting by proxy one person can buy up the rents from the riparian owners and buy up their fisheries and then keep out the man who pays his licence but who is not prepared to buy votes. The Galway Deputies in this House will be able to corroborate what I say. The system that operated in Galway was modified and was made more acceptable to the people and more in line with the times we live in.

I feel that the Minister should look into the whole question of elections by proxy on the various boards of conservators and I hope he will encourage, as his predecessors encouraged, those who are prepared to establish trout hatcheries and who are prepared to look after them without cost to the community. All the labour is supplied free and in my opinion this work is of considerable advantage to the community.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.

Mr. Kilroy

I wish to refer particularly to the condition of slips and piers along the west coast of Mayo. They have all got into a state of disrepair and, unless they are put into proper condition, fishing will be discontinued in that area. I will give one example. During the 1914-18 War a mine burst near one particular slip and, as a result, the whole slip was cracked. Nothing has been done to that slip since and it has broken away and is being washed away by the sea and nobody can use it.

At that time there were 14 to 20 crews fishing from that slip, going out every day. Now, fishermen are afraid to go out because, on account of the condition of the slip, they might not be able to get back again. Several appeals were made to have the slip put into repair but nothing was done. It is a shame that something is not done. I admit that the Board of Works did offer to make a grant some years ago but it was conditional on the county council providing 25 per cent. of the cost and maintaining the slip afterwards. The county surveyor refused to do that. That slip should be put into a state of repair immediately. There is a great deal of fish along the coast there and there is no means of getting it out. The same thing obtains along the coast of Erris and Achill. Slips that were provided by the Congested Districts Board have got into a state of disrepair.

I would ask the Minister to see that grants are provided for this work. The people of these areas do not derive any benefit from the best scheme, the wheat scheme or the turf scheme and the least that should be done is to see that the slips and piers are put into a state of repair. Achill and Erris are in great need of slips.

Foreign trawlers are poaching there day and night and there is no sign of their being stopped. There are many fishermen along the coast there and there is as much fish there as in any other part of the coast. If loans were available for fishing boats and gear, the fishermen would be induced to go out fishing again. In most places fishermen have stopped going to sea because, on account of the lack of landing facilities, they are afraid they might not be able to get back. Some years ago a tragedy occurred there and it is only by the mercy of God that tragedies are avoided. If slips were made safer, there would be more fishermen in the area. I believe that there are possibilities in that area equal to those in any other part of the coast, if they were developed properly, and therefore I would ask the Government to see to it that facilities are provided and, further, that the proviso as to the local contribution of 25 per cent. should be waived. The majority on the county council can out-vote the representatives of this area and we can never hope to get that grant from the council The majority of the members of the council represent inland districts. Although there is a very big coastline, there are very few representatives of the coastal districts. In the interests of the poor people along that coast, I ask that something should be done along the lines I have suggested. I hope my appeal will receive some consideration.

General Mulcahy

There is an aspect of the matter that was referred to by Deputy Kilroy which, I think, the Minister and the Government generally ought to bear in mind. The Deputy spoke of the importance of helping the fishing on the west coat of Mayo, and of improving some of the slips and piers there for that purpose. I have been trying to direct the attention of the Department in charge of the Gaeltacht industries and also the Board of Works to the position of one particular pier on the west coast of Kerry. This whole matter of improving facilities for fishing on the west coast is intimately bound up with the economic well-being of one of the most valuable sections of our people in relation to our national being and our national culture—that is the Irish language. I would like to ask the Minister if, in relation to the conditions on the west coast of Kerry in the corner of Dunquin, he could get anything done to put the pier there into a position in which boats could come in with safety so that fish and other articles could be landed there. As I pointed out before, you have there a self-centred community. The Irish language is the dominating language of their lives. They depend on agriculture and on fishing to sustain their economy. They have in that small parish, or half parish, excellent land. You also have there some of the best farmers in Kerry. They are small farmers. The district is very circumscribed.

I have been endeavouring to get the Department of Agriculture to give facilities for a travelling creamery there so that more cows could be kept and a better return got from the land by people who are perfectly well able to give it, and whose land is perfectly well able to yield it. The fishing side of their economy has been disastrously and completely wiped out. Deputies who have been to Glendalough and have found their way far into the tail-end of the valley will recall seeing the desolation of stones there. On a smaller scale, the desolation at Dunquin pier is almost more terrifying. A few hundred pounds would re-establish the connection of an excellent, active and enterprising community there with the sea. The work that was undertaken by the Board of Works has been left entirely derelict because, in the first place, the situation for the pier was a difficult one, and in the second place, when the cliff fell in on top of it, it was left there.

There seems to be no authority ready to step in and save the situation. The piers that have been mentioned by Deputy Kilroy are a prop to the economy of our Irish-speaking people. We shall have before us this evening a Vote for an additional sum of £1,500 for the Oireachtas to be spent on an annual festival here in Dublin. For what? To help the Irish language. We can do nothing but waste money in helping the Irish language in Dublin if, through neglect here and there in the areas where we still have communities speaking the Irish language, with a tradition for speaking it that goes back for thousands of years, their economy is allowed to waste itself or be destroyed.

In connection with this matter which Deputy Kilroy mentioned and which I mentioned previously with regard to Dunquin, I should also say that some representations were made in regard to An Beal Bán, which is at the other side of Ballyferriter. There is a problem there to be dealt with. It is a simple one, and I suggest that, if nobody else is going to deal with it, the Minister for Fisheries ought to look into it, take it up and get something done, because contact between the community there and the sea is really being cut off. It is cut off through a certain amount of neglect which a little care and attention would wipe out. If that were done these people could re-establish themselves in a better and more progressive way on the social wealth that is there, wealth which they are perfectly well able to use if their contact with it is not blocked.

Mr. Coburn

I want to bring to the notice of the Minister's Department the shortage of nets which has been experienced by fishermen during the past few years. I assume, now that things are coming back to normal, that the position will be remedied in the near future. I notice that several Deputies urged the placing of an embargo on imports of fish. I do not think that would be a wise course to take. Some Deputies seemed to give the impression that, because there is a little extra fish coming on the market we should place an immediate embargo on all imports of fish. I know that the question of a continuous supply of fish is an intricate one. There is one thing that Deputies should get into their heads, and it is, that you cannot regiment fish. You can place tariffs and restrictions on many a thing, but thank God you cannot make fish come here and go there at will. Anybody who has ever seen a fisherman fish for salmon at the estuary of a river will know that he may go there day after day and not catch one salmon. On other days he may catch 30 or 40. Fishermen may cast out their nets but they cannot say to the salmon: "Come in." They have to trust to luck.

There is no such thing as controlling the supply of fish. If men could go out on any day and catch 30 or 40 salmon they would then have to haul the salmon around Dundalk or some other town and perhaps get about 6d. a lb. for it unless they were able to send it direct to the Dublin market or to the London market where there was a keen demand for it. This matter of putting on an embargo is a two-edged sword.

When Deputies talk about a slump, surely they do not envisage a situation in which there will always be big prices for fish and other commodities. We must have some thought for the poor in our back streets. They want to get fish at a reasonable price. Everybody knows that if fish can be got at a reasonable price the consumption of it will go up automatically. People with large families would like to be able to give two or three plaice to each member if the price were reasonable, but because the price is high each member has to be content with one plaice. The same thing applies to herrings. I think it would be most unwise for the Minister to place any restriction whatever on the import of fish. We all know that in the old days those who engaged in the buying of fish might go out one day and not be able to get any supplies on the home market. They then had to get supplies from the far side. If they were depending on the fish landed at our Irish ports, well, there would be no fish at all for many people in this city or in many of the larger towns throughout the country. On the question of a slump, one might as well say that, because we have a few extra fish, we should call on the Department forthwith to put an embargo on imports. If that were to be done it is not one Fishery Department but dozens of them that would be required to control the coasts, sending out wireless messages not to allow any fish in until the last Irish fish had been sold.

We have some people selling tomatoes in this country who think that we should keep every foreign tomato out until they squeeze out the last ha'penny for the home-grown ones, and when the home-grown ones are all sold, they want the foreign-grown ones brought in for their own use. It is illogical to be talking about the high cost of living and, at the same time, keeping it up by prohibiting the import of any article of food that is at times in short supply. What good is money unless we have the commodities in sufficient quantities for the people to buy which they have not been able to get for some time?

As to setting up on a very elaborate scale a deep-sea organisation with trawlers, et cetera, that is easier said than done. It would cost a vast amount of money and it is questionable if you would get a sufficient return from the expenditure. Such a project as that would have to be carried out on a large scale. The French and the Norwegians and others have trawlers which can fish in the North Sea and other places and they do not land all their fish in their home ports. They have to land the fish in different ports on the Continent and Great Britain. I would say to those who suggest that this thing can be easily done that it will cost a large amount of money and that it would be almost impossible to put it into effect and to bring about the results envisaged. The fishermen have to go out to meet the fish; the fish do not come into them. If the fishermen are prepared to purchase the boats themselves, I am sure they will get assistance from the Department. I think, however, that the time has arrived when people should do something for themselves and not be asking the Fishery Department to place the fish in their baskets.

One aspect of this question to which I would like the Minister to pay attention is that of the inland fisheries. Great harm has been done to our rivers during the last few years and as a result the supply of trout and other fish has not been as good as it was. I do not know what is the cause of that, but I know that the Department of Fisheries cannot bring about much improvement unless they have the goodwill and co-operation of the people. It is unfortunate that in this country there seems to be an entire absence of civic spirit in regard to the preservation of our rivers as well as the preservation of our wild fowl and game. Some people have no qualms of conscience about netting trout and salmon, especially in the close season for their own advantage. They never think of the very serious loss as a result of their ill-advised action at certain times of the year.

I think a great deal of the shortage of fish in the rivers is due to the lack of co-operation by those who, by virtue of their position, one would think would try to help the boards of conservators all over the country to preserve our inland fisheries, so that some return can be got by those anglers who, at great cost to themselves take out a licence and procure the necessary equipment for fishing for their own enjoyment. Inland fisheries are one of the greatest sources of revenue this country could have. Fishing is a sport which is taken up by many people in different walks of life and a great deal of money is put in circulation by people not only from this country but from other countries because of their incidental expenses. If the Department would concentrate on improving our inland fisheries they would be doing a great work which would not cost very much money. I wish to emphasise again that to make that effort successful it is necessary to have the co-operation of the people. especially those in the areas through which these fishing rivers flow.

I would also ask the Minister to take steps to see that the small piers along our coast are put into a proper condition of repair for the accommodation of fishing boats. I wish to emphasise again that I do not think it would be wise for the Minister, except after very serious consideration, to do anything to prevent the import of fish. We export a lot of fish at certain times of the year and possibly what we might gain in one way would be lost on the double in the other way.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Smith)

Deputy Corish, when speaking on the motion to refer the Estimate back, dealt with a matter which I think practically every Deputy who has spoken in this debate also referred to, namely, the provision of suitable landing facilities for our fishermen. Deputy Mulcahy came into the House apparently to discuss the matter of the Dunquin Pier with which I was very familiar in the Office of Public Works. Deputy Healy dealt with the question of Valentia Harbour, which was also a bit of a thorn in my side when I was in the Office of Public Works.

As to the provision of suitable landing-places for our people, when I was in the Office of Public Works I took the view that Deputy Mulcahy has suggested the Minister for Fisheries, so far as he has responsibility for this matter, should take. The system through which these facilities are made available to these fishermen is perhaps a bit elaborate and cumbersome. I always felt that it was too cumbersome and sometimes even irritating to a person who has responsibility in one Department or another because he could not get some repairs carried out in a place where he felt that repairs were necessary.

Although my responsibility at that time was different from what it is now, I did take a keen interest in the matter, and I found a different approach to it in the different counties. Deputies will understand that direct provision is not made in this Vote for the provision and repairs of piers and slips for our fishermen, but this Department enters into the matter inasmuch as, when an application is made to the Office of Public Works, that application is referred to the Department of Fisheries so that it may express its opinion on the fishing interests involved. When the Department officials signify their approval to the proposed work, the matter which has been referred to of the attitude of the local authority arises. Will the local authority make any contribution? Is it reasonable to ask the local authority to make a contribution? If the local authority makes a contribution, is it reasonable to ask it to maintain the structure? If they refuse to maintain it, is it reasonable to ask a State Department to set up an organisation for the preservation of these works along our coast? Would it not be much better and much more businesslike if the county council would undertake the work, as it has in the area an engineering organisation of its own capable of a quick approach to any sudden problem which may arise?

When dealing with these matters in a different capacity from my present capacity, I tried to approach them sympathetically for the reasons stated by Deputy Mulcahy, but I found the most peculiar attitude on the part of local authorities. Some of them were very helpful; some were very anxious; some were, if I may use the expression, falling over themselves in order to cooperate with the Department directly concerned; and some of them would not touch the work with a 40-foot pole. I can say here that I used every means of persuasion possible, through the members of councils who are also members of this House, to get these local authorities, who were, I supposed, advised by their technical staff in many cases, to adopt a different attitude.

The same applies to Dunquin. I do not know the details of that problem now; they are not fresh in my mind; but the general picture of the case is in my mind and I can assure Deputy Mulcahy that while I have no desire to shirk any responsibility—you often find a tendency as between one Department and another or as between a Department and a local authority to try to push the blame over on to the other party—that, whoever was responsible, when I was in the office directly concerned, I was terribly anxious to find a solution of that problem. I do not think it is entirely a fishery problem—it is partly a fishery problem and partly something else—I confess—as I say, I have been out of touch with it for some months—that I was somewhat disappointed to learn that progress has not been made since, because I thought at the time I was leaving the office that we had reached a point at which we could look forward to having the work done. The harbour at Valentia has a much longer history and I think that we are nearing a solution of that very vexed question.

I do not know whether the present system is a good system or not. I often thought it would be more satisfactory if some means could be devised to eliminate all these corners, and some others which I have not referred to at all, around which one must go in view of the different interests involved —fishing interests, the interests of those who take sand from the sea, and so on—but I suppose it is necessary that a number of Departments should be consulted. In order to satisfy myself as to whether we were doing as Deputy Mulcahy suggested we ought to do, I spent some time going around the coast and looking at the facilities provided for fishermen, especially in those counties which were willing to co-operate, willing to make whatever small contribution they were asked to make and willing to maintain the structures erected. I was in Kerry and Donegal and other places and what surprised me was the generosity of the facilities we were providing.

In some of these centres, we had expended money on the provision of slips and piers, and my visit was completely a surprise—whatever evidence was there would be there any day. I took with me the files dealing with all the small works we had erected and I said to myself: "I will see what case was made for this work before it was undertaken and I will have a look at the completed work and see what evidence there is of traffic from the point of view of fishing." In many cases, I must say I was severely disappointed by the lack of indication of that kind in spite of the provision of these landing facilities about which I have been urged to be generous. There is no provision in this Vote for this service and I can only tell the House what my approach to it was, at a time when my responsibility was different. I can only say that to the extent to which this matter will come before me from another Department for my views as to whether a particular proposal should be gone on with or not, my tendency and the tendency of my officials will be, where there is a doubt, to load the dice in favour of those who are in need of these services.

Mr. Anthony

Were the piers to which the Minister referred erected by our Government or by the old Congested Districts Board?

Mr. Smith

These were new piers in some cases.

Mr. Anthony

I was thinking of General John Regan.

Mr. Smith

These were new structures entirely. I have satisfied myself that the effort being made by the State in this regard was not a bad effort. There might be cases where, because of all the interest involved—the local authority, the Office of Public Works, the Department of Fisheries, and so on —vexatious delays took place.

On the matter of the fishing industry, I have heard many points of view from men who are experts and some men who are not. I find myself in agreement with Deputy Murphy when he spoke of the number of occasions on which we had heard the same kind of speech and I was particularly struck by his suggestion as to the necessity for our developing an inland trade in fish.

That point, too, has been made by other speakers and I have often asked myself: "How would you do this, what effective steps could we take in order to achieve that end?" And again, if you were to succeed in developing that inland market for fish, what sort of organisation would you set up, how would you control it? What is wrong with the present organisation?

Mr. Murphy

There is none.

Mr. Smith

I am posing those questions; I have been asking myself those questions. I have met fishermen since I came into this office and they have said the same thing to me as Deputy Murphy has said: "There is none." One of those individuals is a member of the deputation of fishermen and was at one time a director of the Sea Fisheries Association. Most of the points raised here as to the need to cultivate and develop a taste for fish, to develop an inland trade and set up an organisation to handle the fishing industry, are very interesting, but you will get that sort of loose talk about the fishing industry and I have invited these men to try to clear their own minds and to give me, either in conversation or in writing, what ideas they have as to how this could be done.

It is not often that Deputy Dillon and I agree on any matter, but I must reluctantly confess that many of the points he made in the course of his speech were points that I would have made. I say to people who talk about our lack of taste for fish, what can we do about that? You lift up a journal and read an article by some authority on fish. He gives figures showing the consumption here as compared with the consumption in England or in Canada. He compares the consumption of fish in Dublin with that in London, mentions the desirability of cultivating a taste for fish, and points to the liberty, the scope there is, to induce our people to consume a most desirable food. I agree with that, but, like Deputy Dillon, when I go to the restaurant for my lunch I might sometimes forget whether it is Thursday or Friday and when I see by the activities going on around me that it is Friday, I curl up my nose and say: "Ah! it's fish." If my own reactions and the reactions of other members of the Dáil are like that, it is only natural to expect that the reactions of the people in the country are the same.

What can we do to change that, if it is desirable that it should be changed? When you have that done, if it can be done, what steps will you take to organise the fishermen? If what Deputy Murphy says is correct, that the Sea Fisheries Association is not an organisation, what steps will you take to organise fishermen, because it will be necessary to do that? Will they respond to your efforts to organise them and, when you have that done, what sort of scheme will you have for the co-ordination of the whole industry for the purpose of the proper distribution of fish after you have cultivated a taste for it?

These are matters in regard to which one would expect a closer sort of reasoning on the part of people, some of whom are members of this House, who have been engaged in this business for a long time. They talk about the undesirability of importing fish but, as I said to those who visited me, why would the Association allow the importation of fish to ruin the industry here unless there was some substantial reason for it, unless the market conditions here were in such a state that they were entitled to take that course? When you ask fishermen to give you any reason why the Sea Fisheries Association should have the desire to destroy the fishing industry, as would appear to be suggested here, by allowing fish to be imported, you simply cannot get any kind of answer that seems to make sense.

I would be very glad to hear the views of those who are interested in the matter. The organisation that is there is, so far as I know, always open to consider any views, and unless there is more clarity in the views that they might decide to send, either to the Sea Fisheries Association or to me or my Department, unless there is more clear thought behind it, I can well understand the failure, or whatever other word you may use, of that organisation or of my Department to take any serious notice of it.

I knew there was something wrong with you.

Mr. Smith

There is some very good fishing in my neighbourhood and I see men who apparently spend a great deal of time at it. I admire their patience but you never seem to get from any two of them the same opinion for changes in the habits of fish. I think that applies to all kinds of coarse fish in our lakes. In my own county there are lakes in which there is a lot of coarse fish. When I was young I used to fish in these lakes and I now meet a lot of people who frequent these lakes and they tell me that even the coarse fish that used to be found there formerly in abundance are no longer to be found. I do not know what is responsible for that; I suppose it is just a phase that will correct itself in time. The suggestions which have been made as to the steps which might be taken to improve inland fisheries will be considered. I do not think there is anything in the suggestion made by Deputy Dillon inasmuch as I do not think that there are any brown trout fishermen on our boards of conservators at all. At least so I am informed by my advisers. Therefore, the sort of commission he suggested I should set up would have no interest in brown trout.

I agree with those who say that the inland fisheries are very important but I do not know how they can so easily arrive at a figure as to the value of the industry. I have no doubt it is valuable and that it is desirable it should be encouraged and developed. I think that those men especially who take such a magnificent interest in providing stocks for rivers should be helped in every way because I do not know of any other section in the country who devote the same time and attention to that particular type of work as they do. It is, therefore, the duty of the Department to help them in every way. However, I could never understand, as I say, what means they have of assessing the financial value of our inland fisheries. I could never know what the basis of the calculation was. I think I have referred to most of the points that were made in the course of the debate. If I have failed to deal with any of the suggestions put forward and if I should find later that there is anything in them, we shall make all the use we can of them.

Vote put and agreed to.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 3 Jul 1947

Committee on Finance. - Vote 31—Fisheries (Resumed).

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Jul 1947