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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Oct 1947

Vol. 108 No. 7

Financial Resolution No. 7—Customs and Excise.

I move that the Dáil agree with the Committee in Financial Resolution No. 7:—

(1) That the duty of customs on tobacco imposed by Section 20 of the Finance Act, 1932 (No. 20 of 1932), shall, as on and from the 16th day of October, 1947, be charged, levied, and paid at the several rates specified in Part I of the Schedule to this Resolution in lieu of the rates at which the said duty is now chargeable by virtue of Section 6 of the Finance Act, 1947 (No. 15 of 1947).

(2) That the duty of excise on tobacco imposed by Section 19 of the Finance Act, 1934 (No. 31 of 1934), shall, as on and from the 16th day of October, 1947, be charged, levied, and paid at the several rates specified in Part II of the Schedule to this Resolution in lieu of the rates at which the said duty is now chargeable by virtue of Section 6 of the Finance Act, 1947 (No. 15 of 1947).

(3) That sub-sections (3) to (5) of the said Section 19 of the Finance Act, 1934, shall apply to tobacco which is chargeable with the duty of excise imposed by sub-section (1) of that section at a rate specified in Part II of the Schedule to this Resolution, and for the purpose of such application references in the said sub-sections (3) to (5) of the said Section 19 to Part I of the Sixth Schedule to the said Finance Act, 1934, shall be construed and have effect as references to Part II of the Schedule to this Resolution.

(4) That the rebate on hard pressed tobacco mentioned in sub-section (2) of Section 17 of the Finance Act, 1940 (No. 14 of 1940), shall, in respect of any such tobacco sold and sent out for use within the State by any licensed manufacturer on or after the 16th day of October, 1947, be at the rate of two shillings and eight pence per pound.

(5) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Mr. Morrissey

Has the Minister any explanation to give on this Resolution? Will he tell us why it was necessary to increase the price of all tobaccos and cigarettes, including ordinary plug tobacco? Apparently, the Minister is going to sit silent. I want to oppose this tax in its entirety. I want to oppose it with particular reference to the fact that it makes the price of the ordinary plug tobacco, which is the tobacco used by the very poorest sections of our people, prohibitive. May I remind the House that, under this new tax, the lowest price at which a person can buy one ounce of tobacco is 2/-? This tax will hit, in the main, the most lowly-paid and lowly recompensed section of our community. It will, particularly, affect the agricultural community. Two ounces of tobacco will cost 4/-. Deputies on all sides of the House know from personal experience that the only comfort the old man who is beyond his labour and who is either entirely or mainly dependent on the old age pension has is his smoke. One ounce of tobacco in the week will not, as every pipe smoker knows, give very much comfort, consolation or satisfaction to a man, young or old. To buy one ounce of tobacco will cost many an old age pensioner one-fifth of his entire income for a week.

I know and so does every Deputy who has any practical knowledge and experience of rural life that it was not uncommon to find farmers and farmers' sons, in the days when they could afford it, before the price rocketed to its present level, working alone in the fields all day with no company whatever except, perhaps, a pair of horses. It was not uncommon to find such men smoking as much as an ounce of tobacco per day. Very few average pipe smokers in the country would smoke less than four ounces in the week. Now, we get this. Why? The Minister has refused to be courteous enough to tell me the amount that is going to be realised by this particular Resolution. Therefore, I have to depend on my memory, as I have not got a copy of his speech here before me. Speaking from memory, I think he estimates something like £1,900,000 from this particular tax. Perhaps the Minister would now be courteous enough to say whether I am correct or incorrect.

£1,960,000.

Mr. Morrissey

Practically £2,000,000.

Only a small bit out.

Mr. Morrissey

I have no hesitation in saying that three-quarters of that sum will come from the pockets of the people for whose relief, according to the Minister, the food subsidies are introduced. There is not a shadow of doubt about that. There is not a shadow of doubt, of course, that the vast bulk of the revenue which is to be derived from this additional tax will come out of the pockets of those who smoke the popular or cheaper brands of tobacco and cigarettes, because they are naturally, of course, in the great majority. With the prices of both tobacco and cigarettes at the level at which they are to-day there are comparatively few people in the country who can afford to smoke other than the very cheapest brands. Therefore, I have no hesitation in saying that at least three-quarters of the additional tax collected under this resolution will come out of the pockets of the poor people for whom the Minister has said the other subsidies are introduced in order to reduce the cost of living. To add to the humbug and to the hypocrisy of the whole thing, I understand it is now the intention to remove tobacco from the cost-of-living index to enable us to bring down the cost-of-living index.

We get this from a Government, one of whose chief Ministers—of course in his customary, witty and well chosen words—accused a Minister of another Government of faking the cost-of-living index figure. This tax is an unfair tax. It is an unjust tax. It is an unnecessary tax. If the Minister wants £2,000,000 and if he cannot save it out of the amount of money he is getting out of the main Budget of this year, then he is no longer fit to occupy the position of Minister for Finance. If these reliefs which he has given can only be given by taxing what I said at the beginning is in many cases, the only comfort and, in most cases, the principal comfort which most of our old people have at the end of their lives then I would prefer to see the position left as it was. May I remind the House, in order to give some indication of what is happening, that a few years ago the price of two ounces of plug tobacco was 1/7; now it is 4/-? May I again remind the House that when we talk about national and local taxation at the level at which it is under the present Government, and which is the main and the most significant factor in the cost of living, it is borne out here again? Four shillings for two ounces of tobacco. The price of tobacco is probably about one shilling per ounce and the other three shillings go as tax to the present Government.

I would like to appeal to the Minister to reconsider this imposition of an additional tax on tobacco. Apart altogether from the case of the old age pensioners, I should like to draw the attention of the Minister and of the House to a very considerable section of the people on whom this burden will weigh very heavily. I am sure the Minister is aware of the fact that the tendency of recent legislation is to retire men at 65 years of age when previously they were entitled, if they had the health and the physique to do so, to work up to 70 years of age. These men, say, on the Great Northern Railway, Córas Iompair Éireann, and other large firms, are being retired at 65 years of age. They may retire on a small pension of, say, 10/- or 12/- per week. Being only 65 years of age they are, naturally, not entitled to the old age pension. Very often these people find themselves in the position overnight, so to speak, of being reduced to an income of 10/- or 12/- a week when previously they were enjoying a weekly income of anything from £4 to £6. These people have now to pay this terrible price for an ounce of tobacco. I would ask the Minister to consider that section of our people —and they are very considerable in number at the moment. Deputy David knows that. These people have reared large families, possibly most of whom have got married, and they are getting very little income from them. In the majority of cases, possibly, very little money has been saved because it took all their earnings previous to their retirement to keep themselves and their families in anything approaching a decent cost of living level. I speak on behalf of that section which, as the Minister himself knows well, is a very considerable section — especially in Dundalk. A large number of men on the Great Northern Railway who are at present retired on a very small pension will feel the impact of this extra tax on what is regarded to be not a luxury, but a comfort.

I suppose it is vain to hope that the gentleman of the ascetic tastes and the Minister for Finance would understand how ordinary mortals such as old age pensioners and persons in receipt of low incomes manage to live and to provide themselves with the frugal luxuries which they are permitted to-day on their slender incomes. I think this tax on tobacco, particularly on the cheaper ranges of tobacco, is going to impose a very real hardship on the ordinary man in this country who is on a low scale of income and that it is going to be particularly hard in respect of old age pensioners. In the case of the old age pensioner who goes into the Post Office on a Friday, collects there the miserable 12/6 which he gets under our old age pension legislation, it has been the custom, perhaps, after collecting the money to have a pint of beer and to buy his weekly supply of tobacco—perhaps two ounces of tobacco. Nobody will say that that is an unreasonable form of recreation to be indulged in by an old age pensioner. Nobody will say that it is unreasonable for him, on the day he collects the old age pension, to buy a pint of beer and also, perhaps, two ounces of tobacco. Yet, under this legislation which we are now being asked to enact he simply cannot do that because of the burden which this taxation will impose on his slender income. Whatever justification the Minister may have for taxing luxuries such as cigars which are consumed by wealthy people—I am prepared to back the tax on cigars on the understanding that those who receive low incomes will be permitted to get their tobacco free from any additional taxation—I think he is acting unreasonably in imposing a tax on tobacco which he must know, as every ordinary man and woman in the country does know, has long ceased to be a luxury so far as the ordinary mortals in this country are concerned.

I know, of course, that we have a rather mystic and ascetic variety of individuals who cannot understand why ordinary flesh should succumb to the wiles of tobacco, and why an ordinary person should indulge in the luxury of a pint of beer after the weekly or daily grind. The fact remains that that is our pattern of life. The masses of our people do that. They are now being asked to do it in circumstances which will impose real hardship on them because, side by side with the additional taxation on tobacco and beer, they are being told by the Government that they must submit themselves to a wages standstill order, the effect of which, calculated on what we know from Government statements, is to endeavour to prevent persons in that position from improving their incomes in order to meet the new higher level of taxation and we have had statements from the Government benches that nothing can be done in the way of increasing old age pensions. The Taoiseach, according to a statement of his on Sunday last, does not intend to increase them because it would mean taking taxation out of the pockets of the people. Taxation is being taken out of the pockets of the masses of the people under the Resolution we are being asked to enact.

If this country were in a state of financial prostration, of agricultural and industrial chaos, one might understand the Minister being driven to extremes in raising money to meet the national housekeeping bill but that is not the case. There are abundant sources from which the Minister can secure his additional taxation if such additional taxation is necessary. I said before—the truth probably will bear repetition—that about 18 months ago the Minister handed back £3½ millions in the form of excess corporation profits tax. That was done by the Minister in the pious hope that the effect of handing it back would be to reduce the price of commodities. The Minister by now must have abundant evidence that the handing back of that £3½ millions to what can only be described as a wealthy stratum of taxpayers, has not had the effect of reducing prices. In fact, prices have risen more rapidly since that £3½ millions were paid back than at any time during the previous eight years.

If the £3,500,000 was handed back in a pathetic belief that it would reduce prices, the Minister's hopes in that respect were based on extremely sandy foundation. That money is available still. The class who previously paid it and who have now got it back are still capable of bearing that additional taxation without its involving the slightest encroachment on their standard of living. Why then do not we expect that stratum of the population, whose backs are broad and who are well upholstered financially, to make a contribution on an occasion like this in the form of additional taxation so as to obviate recourse to additional taxation on tobacco which, because of human usage and our pattern of life, has become an absolute essential for the masses of the people?

The Minister on the occasion of his Budget speech had a simple recipe for those who find the additional taxation on tobacco and beer arduous. It is as follows: If in the past you have taken a pint a day, that is seven pints in the week, take six pints in the week in future, in order to adjust yourself to this crazy type of Budget. He had another recipe, dazzling in its simplicity, for those who use tobacco. For every six cigarettes you are used to consuming, if you consume only five in future, everything will go on all right. The Minister might have gone further and suggested to those people that when they were ordering a pint of beer or an ounce of tobacco, they should ask the retailer to put out the lights and buy in the dark so that they would not know what they were getting. Is the Minister so hopelessly divorced from the feelings of the people as not to know that you cannot suggest that pattern of life to our people? That is something that they are not used to. They have a right to expect that on an occasion like this the Minister would survey the nation's resources and tax the backs that are broad enough to bear it.

During the emergency we raised £3½ millions in the form of excess corporation profits tax. It was given back, for nothing, as a gift to people well endowed with this world's goods. We are now raking taxation out of the pockets of the people who are not able to bear this imposition. I would suggest to the Minister that he ought even now to say to those to whom he has given a very generous gift in the form of remitted excess corporation profits tax that they must yield up that taxation, because in our circumstances it is most unreasonable and unfair that tobacco and the ordinary pint of beer, which have been the right of the masses of the people for generations, should be taxed to the extent that they are being taxed in this Supplementary Budget. The wealthy classes in the community, who have escaped the devastation of war and who saw their property protected by the ordinary working-class people who joined the Army, ought to be glad to yield up their surplus wealth, their unwanted money, some of their deposits in the bank, in order to express even in token form the gratitude which they have a right to feel for the whole nation and for the masses of the people who comprised the nation's Army during the emergency. Yet, in this Resolution the Minister is putting his hand down as far as he can get it into the pockets of the ordinary working-class people, the ordinary agricultural worker, the small farmer, the artisan and general labourer, while the wealthy classes are escaping relatively scot-free under this Budget.

The Minister's concern in his Budget statement was for the lowly and the weak. It strikes me that the Minister's concern in this matter is the kind of concern a greyhound has for a rabbit. The imposition of this taxation is unfair so long as there are other sources of wealth which can be tapped, even if we were again to tap excess corporation profits. We ought to tax excess profits. We ought to rake off every halfpenny of excess profits in a crisis of this kind. While that course is open the Minister ought not hesitate to take it, and thus avoid the imposition of these new taxes on the masses of the people who are not equipped to bear them.

Apart from excess corporation profits tax there are other sources of taxation. There is an abundance of luxuries in this country which are being purchased by those who are going scot-free under this Budget. The Minister is not without resources for making them pay, in the national interest, a higher price for these luxuries, many of which are bought in dollar countries and the purchase of which contributes to our financial difficulties. So long as these sources of taxation are available it is most unreasonable that the Minister should seek to impose on the ordinary people this additional taxation in the form of extra duties on tobacco and beer.

During the excessively cold weather last winter I stopped to talk to a poor road worker who was having his lunch on the side of the road. His lunch consisted of three slices of bakers' bread and tea heated in a can. After his lunch he filled his pipe. I asked him how much tobacco he used and he said about six ounces a week and that it took some management to make six ounces last the week. I have the greatest sympathy with that man, working hard, away from home, inadequately fed, because of the conditions under which food had to be carried and cooked. His only comfort was the pipe which enabled him to continue his work for the remainder of the day. A person in that position will receive a benefit of about 6d. from the various subsidies provided in the Budget but the tax on tobacco alone will cost him an extra 2/- a week.

I want to know, how does the Minister justify such an imposition upon the ordinary manual worker on any principle of fairplay, justice, or Christianity? If the Minister thinks that people ought to be weaned off tobacco completely it would, I suppose, be far more equitable to set about some rationing system rather than impose this unjust burden. If he thinks that we are sending too much money out of the country for tobacco, and thereby using up our dollar resources, then surely it would be more reasonable to embark upon a scheme for the home-growing of tobacco. This tax cannot be justified, no matter what angle it is viewed from. If taxation must be raised from some source, we ought to distribute the burden equitably as between the poor and the rich. I do not suppose that, by indirect taxation, you can spread the burden equitably over all sections. There is no reason, however, why the excess corporation profits tax should have been removed. If people make excess profits during a period of emergency it is only right that they should contribute portion of them to the State. That would be preferable to what, in reality, amounts to a direct tax on the poor and the working classes. If an additional levy of 2/- were imposed upon the household of every small farmer and agricultural worker it would not be in the least bit more harsh than this additional levy on tobacco. It is nonsense to say that the ordinary middle-aged man, who has been accustomed to consuming a certain amount of tobacco every day, can cut down his consumption at the present time.

I think this is an infamous proposal on the part of the Minister, and that it shows a complete disregard for the rights and feelings of our people. If we think that the poor working-man can do without the luxury of a smoke each day, then surely the Government could have done without the luxury of an inflated Army, of a make-believe Navy and of an expensive Viceregal Lodge which caters, as was revealed last week, for crooks. This is a very serious matter for every section of the community, because it shows such a callous disregard, on the part of the Government, for the rights and interests of the people who maintain this State and produce its food and fuel that it must inevitably create widespread discontent. I think that is the last thing we should be creating at the present time. Instead, we ought to be giving to those who are so essential to the State—the workers on the land, in the bogs and in the factories—every incentive and encouragement to carry on their good work. In the proposal before us we are simply trying to outrage their sense of justice and to impose upon them a crushing and unjustifiable burden.

This Resolution purports to relieve the people generally of a certain amount of expenditure and to bring down the cost of living. I do not believe it is going to achieve its object. The opinion generally held through the country is that it will have the opposite effect. The Minister has expressed the view that if people would only give up certain luxuries they would realise the benefits which this tax would confer on them. I should like to hear him explain what is the real dividing line between a necessity and a luxury. It is a rather moot question. Most people take a cup of tea in the morning and in the evening. Is the drinking of a cup of tea a greater necessity for them than, say, the drinking of a pint of stout is for a docker who is engaged on dusty work, unloading coal, on a summer's day? I think many would say that the drinking of a cup of tea by myself, or others, is not as great a necessity for us as the pint of stout is for the docker engaged in that class of employment. Will the Minister say that there is any more food value in the cup of tea than there is in the pint of stout? I am not speaking here for the purpose of encouraging intemperance. I am making an argument as between what is a necessity and what is a luxury. I believe myself that the pint of stout, taken in moderation, is more of a necessity for the working-man than the cup of tea is for the many people who indulge in it. I can speak with some freedom on this because I do not take any intoxicating drink. I do know, however, that for a great section of the community, especially those doing heavy work, a pint of stout is a necessity.

This Resolution does not deal with stout.

Well, the case of tobacco is even worse. I wonder did the Minister ever read the popular story Three Men in a Boat. If he did not, I suggest that he should get a copy of it and read and digest the dedication in it. A pipe of tobacco is, to many men in the country, a necessity. We have many men engaged on heavy arduous work which imposes a great strain on their nervous system. We have, too, many harassed women, and the smoking of a mild cigarette has become a necessity for them. We all know that there are many men and women who, having done a hard day's work, like to smoke either a pipe of tobacco or a cigarette after the evening meal. They find that it helps to calm their nerves. They could hardly call it the end of a perfect day unless they could indulge in a smoke. I am sure that 90 per cent. of Deputies are smokers and they can realise what it would mean if they were suddenly to be cut off smoking or had to reduce it drastically. I myself know something of the misery of it, because up to a year or so ago I was probably one of the heaviest smokers in this State. I know what the sudden cutting off of smoking means to any person. I know what it will mean to an unfortunte old age pensioner who smokes probably two ounces of tobacco of the lowest quality per week when he has to spend 4/- out of his 12/6 pension for tobacco that has become a necessity to him. It is practically an impossibility for an old age pensioner who has been smoking probably for 50 years to give it up. The Minister suggested that if he dropped his pipe he would gain by the relief on tea and sugar. Is the Minister sure that if an old age pensioner got his choice between taking the relief on two ounces of tea or on two ounces of tobacco which he would choose? I believe that the majority of the smokers would choose the two ounces of tobacco.

It is ridiculous to suggest that the cost of living will be greatly reduced by the reliefs set out on rationed articles, such as two ounces of tea, three-quarters of a lb. of sugar, and a stone of flour per week. If the Minister wants to give reliefs so as to bring down the cost of living, I am not afraid to say that I would prefer that he should not give them in the manner proposed. I believe that the general run of people in this country, particularly the poor, would be more satisfied to be left as they were rather than be bamboozled with the suggestion that they are getting relief which they are not getting.

Various suggestions were made as to how this particular relief could be given other than in the manner in which the Minister proposes to tax the people. It has been suggested that a bigger tax could be put on excess profits. If there are real excess profits, I believe that they should be taxed to the limit, if it is necessary to tax anything, and that real luxuries should be taxed. The Minister can call to mind a great many luxuries other than tobacco and the cheaper brands of cigarettes or the pint of stout. I suggest that a large share of this money could be found by taxing real luxuries. I believe the bulk of the people are dissatisfied with this particular method of financing these reliefs and, in saying that, I am only giving expression to the voice of my constituents.

I wish to endorse the protest made by the previous speakers against this iniquitous tax on the poor. All the speakers have dealt with the callousness of inflicting this hardship on the most helpless section of the community—the old age and blind pensioners, the old citizens who have given of their best to the State, to whom a good deal of lip sympathy is paid but who seem to be singled out vindictively by the imposition of this tax. Tobacco is their one luxury and it is now being placed completely beyond their reach. It would take a very strong reason to justify such an action on the part of the Minister. He has not vouchsafed any explanation, because, apparently, he has no explanation. I think it would be difficult to give any explanation which would warrant or justify such a low, vindictive measure against a helpless section of the community in their declining years when they have only a miserable stipend to live on. As Deputy Morrissey pointed out, one-fifth of their basic income will have to be paid for one ounce of tobacco per week, while two ounces would be the minimum that an old man would require.

There is another aspect of it with which I am concerned, because it affects the working-man and the unemployed man who has to go to the labour exchange and whose one solace is his pipe. Such a man can scarcely afford a pint in future. It is a savage infliction on him to deny him tobacco, which is his one solace. Then there are the agricultural workers and the small farmers who are our main producers. We are asking them for increased production and anything that would militate against that would be a very lopsided economy on the part of the Government. The Minister may think that depriving the old age pensioner, the unemployed worker, and the lowly-paid worker of their tobacco will prevent inflation. Many attempts have been made in the past to prevent inflation at the expense of old age pensioners and others. I am very much afraid that you will reduce productivity on the land by this tax. It takes a combination of factors to bring about good production on the land. One of them, I contend, is contented and happy workmen. During the emergency a call went out for more productivity on the land and that was contributed to by the loyalty and co-operation of the farm workers and the small farmer producers. If you deprive the man who is ploughing with a pair of horses of his smoke you will not get the same return from his work.

I have experience of these workingmen in the rural areas and I know their habits. I suggest that if you deprive them of their smoke, their activities on the land will be very seriously curtailed, and that applies both to the employer and the worker. It will have a reaction and be reflected in reduced production. Already, they have been deprived of their pint of porter. If they are also deprived of their smoke, it will militate against increased production. I am sure the Minister cannot be so far removed from the plain people as not to know that there are thousands of people in the country who would prefer a smoke to their breakfast. If the alternative was put up to them, they would take the smoke rather than the breakfast. I am serious in making the suggestion that this imposition will be reflected in reduced production on the land. That may make more of an appeal to the Minister than the human element. If the Minister makes inquiries from agricultural inspectors as to whether this will have any retarding influence on agricultural production, I believe he will find that what I say is correct, that the tax on tobacco, apart from the hardship it will inflict on the old age and blind pensioners and the unemployed, will have a reaction on the land workers which will not be to the benefit of the country as a whole.

The Minister showed his appreciation of the situation on a former occasion by excluding plugs and twist tobaccos from the increased taxation. I should like to know the circumstances in which the Government feels that it should reverse itself now and to impose this increased taxation on these tobaccos. I have no objection whatever to the people who are inclined to smoke the luxury tobaccos, cigars and cigarettes, being taxed to the limit. Might I ask the Minister this question: What would be the cost of excluding plug and twist tobaccos from this increased taxation? This tax, as Deputy Keyes has said, represents 9d. per week on the two ounces of tobacco purchased by the old man, the young man working on the farm, the artisan, the shoemaker, the tailor and the blacksmith like himself and myself, and I cannot for the life of me see why the Government should want to reverse itself now. Why not exclude these types again? On that occasion, they boasted that it was in the interest of the poorer citizen and designed to assist the old age pensioner and the other classes I have mentioned. I suggest, without wishing to score any point whatever, that the Government would be well advised to pursue the opposite course and to remit this taxation. There is a huge sum of money to be got from it—£1,960,000—but I should like to know what it would cost to take the tax off plug and twist tobaccos. I suggest that the more it costs, the greater the need for taking it off, because that greater sum is being extracted from the poorest elements in the community.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce was quite clear in his speech as to one of the main motives for imposing this tax. At column 566 of the Official Report of October 16th he said:

"Let it be clear that if it should involve a reduction in the consumption of tobacco it means a further saving of dollars, which is important in our circumstances."

The saving of dollars at the expense of the worker in order to provide nylon stockings for her ladyship is not, in my opinion, what one would expect from the poor man's Government in this country, and it shows how far the Government have departed from the doctrines and gospels they preached in 1929, 1930, 1931, and so on. I appeal to the Minister to consider exempting plug and twist tobaccos, even at the expense of increasing the tax on others, if it is a matter of getting the money. If it is a matter of saving dollars, it would be right to make it impossible for us to smoke any tobacco at all and let that be the sacrifice the people have to make for the saving of dollars in order to get essentials. They must, however, be essentials and not knick-knacks like nylon stockings. I have been informed by a trader in this city that he could get dollars to buy nylon stockings but could not get dollars to buy tractors. That is not at all as it should be. Here we have this poor man's Government taking the pipe of tobacco from the old age pensioner after 15 years. That is the best they can offer. If they were able to say that they were giving him another pipeful and another pint of stout, instead of taking them from him, it would be something, but, after 15 years, the best they can do for the poor people is to grab the smoke and the pint from them.

If this tax and one or two other taxes—unnecessary taxes, as I suggest—are being imposed for the purpose of saving dollars, the Minister should frankly say so. He has been very frank with the House on many occasions and that is to his credit. Whether this tax is being imposed for that purpose or not, I feel fully satisfied, from contacts with my constituents since the Budget was introduced, that it will result in a considerable reduction of the consumption of tobacco, especially in rural areas. It is bound to have that effect in the case of the old age pensioner, but, apart from that, in the case of all those trying to live on low incomes, I suggest that the reduction in the circulation of money which is bound to follow the bad harvest this year will, in itself, help to reduce consumption, because this is a commodity which cannot be secured by the people in rural areas without cash and if there is a reduction in the circulation of cash in the case of any particular section in the rural areas, it is bound to affect the consumption of tobacco.

This tax is one of the taxes which is to bring in a very high proportion of the total revenue to be derived on the passage of this Supplementary Budget, for the purpose, as alleged, of reducing the cost of living. I had a question down to-day as to whether the reduction in the prices of bread, tea and sugar will be followed by a reduction in the prices charged to people who stay in hotels, guest-houses or ordinary lodging-houses. The reply of the Minister for Industry and Commerce conveyed clearly to me that there is to be no reduction in the prices charged to such people. A very big section of unmarried young men and women who work in the Civil Service, in public companies and in manufacturing concerns, are obliged to stay in lodginghouses or guest-houses and they are to get no benefit whatever, according to the Minister, from the reduction in the prices of these commodities. Therefore, this is an additional tax, so far as they are concerned, if they smoke cigarettes or a pipe.

I have no personal prejudices in this matter because I have not smoked a cigarette or pipe for 34 or 35 years. I took a pledge to myself and it is one of the pledges I took which I have been able to keep. I have taken other pledges which I may have forgotten, but I say quite definitely and without any political prejudice that the imposition of this tax will reduce consumption and the Minister will not get the revenue he estimates. Is it a fact or not that following the conversations with his opposite number in England, the Chancellor of the Exchequer—the first conversation, I presume, he had with a British Chancellor—he has been advised—I do not say "instructed"— to reduce his applications for dollars from the British pool and that this is one of the ways in which he intends to carry out any undertaking he may have given in that respect, so that he will be able to go back and meet the Chancellor next Monday or Tuesday and tell him that whatever promises he made in this connection will be honoured by the passage of this Supplementary Budget, and, in particular, so far as it effects a tax on tobacco?

As I have already said, I do not propose on the Report Stage on these Resolutions to enter into a general debate on the whole financial policy of the State. There are appropriate occasions for doing that when the Budget is being discussed, but one of these occasions is not when particular Resolutions are being considered. I hope that by the time we come to the Second Stage of the Finance Bill, Deputy Norton will explain to me why he makes these wild charges against the Government for abolishing the excess corporation profits tax, which was exactly what the British Labour— L-a-b-o-u-r—Government did.

Only Labour in name.

I thought you wanted to break the connection.

The Deputy is advising me every day in the week to do what they are doing over in England but when I propose here in the Dáil to do what they have done in England—to take off the excess corporation profits. tax—Deputy Norton goes round the country and comes in here to the Dáil and says it is some blooming capitalist conspiracy. If it is a capitalist conspiracy here, why was it not a capitalist conspiracy in England? The Deputy can think over that and let me know the result of his cogitations on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. He also alleges that this modest increase of 4d. per ounce on tobacco is another capitalist conspiracy against the working man. If it is, how does he explain the 3/8 for plug tobacco in England?

Perhaps the Minister could explain why an agricultural worker in England gets £4 10s. 0d. per week while the agricultural worker here gets only £2 10s. 0d.?

Because £2 10s. here is worth more in many ways to some people than £4 10s. over there.

I will give you £2 10s. and pay your fare to London, and we shall divide the profits between us, if you can show me how you can believe that.

Mr. Morrissey

Of course there was a war in England.

I hope that Deputy Norton will be able to explain the inconsistency of his Party's attitude in regard to these matters, on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. Deputy Bennett and Deputy Keyes said that this was a low vindictive measure— another extension of Deputy Norton's capitalist conspiracy theory. I want to say that I am very sorry to have to put a tax on tobacco—very sorry indeed. If we had not to get the money, I would not have put it on. We did not go very far with it. In order to avoid putting a higher tax on tobacco, we brought forward a number of other taxation proposals. I pointed out previously that if a person felt that he was badly hit by this increase of 4d. per packet on cigarettes, or if it were going to lessen his ability to support himself or his family, he could avoid paying any more for tobacco if he smoked only five cigarettes in future where he formerly smoked six. That is the plain mathematics of the proposal. It is no capitalist conspiracy, I assure Deputy Norton.

Has Truman anything to do with it?

No. If Deputy Davin thinks there is some international conspiracy, I can assure him there is not. It is purely a question of getting the amount of money necessary to enable us to reduce the price of flour, tea, and sugar.

Why was there an increase in the price of soap and candles in the last two days?

I wish certain Deputies would use more soap—anyway soft soap, towards me, instead of hard words. As I say I do not propose to enter into a general debate on these Resolutions.

Could the Minister give us any indication of what would be the cost of taking the tax off plug tobacco?

I gave the cost of the present subsidy last year. We are giving, at present, a subsidy of 2d. an ounce on plug and it costs us £380,000.

Mr. Morrissey

So the 4d. additional tax must then mean over three-quarters of a million.

I want just to ask one question. I understand that the duty on tobacco is charged on the raw leaf before it is released to the factory. That means that many of the tobacco manufacturers had in stock a quantity of raw leaf on which they previously paid a certain rate of duty and it would take a few weeks after the release of that raw leaf from bond to the factory before the tobacco or cigarettes would be made available to the retailer and the customer. If that is the position, will the Minister tell us why it was necessary for the Minister for Industry and Commerce to authorise higher prices for cigarettes and tobacco when, in fact, the tobacco in respect of which these higher charges were being made had been released from bond at a lower rate of taxation than that which is charged under this Resolution?

It is customary for tobacco manufacturers, I understand, to draw out their tobacco about once a fortnight. If they have a certain carry-over, a few days' supply of tobacco on hands, when they make their draw on the bonded stores, they are that much to the good if the tax is increased. But if the rates are decreased they have to stand the loss. That has been the custom generally. It simply means that when a new tax is imposed you have not to have a whole horde of officials running into every tobacco manufacturing concern in the country, into every wholesale premises and every retail shop to collect the correct amount of extra tax. The business community take advantage of that to put up their prices immediately, when there is no price control. They gain something when taxes are rising but they also lose when taxes are falling. I hope that some day or another soon, if the world swings that way, the individuals who gain now because of an increase in the tobacco will lose because of a decrease in taxation.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 45; Níl, 30.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Thomas.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Furlong, Walter.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lydon, Michael F.
  • Lynch James B.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O'Connor, John S.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Skinner, Leo B.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl

  • Bennett, George C.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Everett, James.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Kissane and Beegan; Níl: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
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