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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 9 Mar 1948

Vol. 110 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Minister's Reference to Inspectors.

I gave notice to-day that I would raise, an the adjournment to-night, the subject-matter of Question 50 on the Order Paper. I am doing so for two reasons. First, there is the obvious reason that I was dissatisfied with the reply given to me by the Minister and, secondly, I am raising this matter for the purpose of teaching the Minister for Industry and Commerce that a penalty usually attaches to a Minister who loses his temper over a supplementary question — the penalty of having the matter reopened on the adjournment. Shortly after he became Minister for Industry and Commerce he made a speech to his constituents in which he assured them that traders subject to price control and rationing regulations were no longer going to be annoyed by pip-squeaks of inspectors. I asked him if that statement was to be interpreted in the way in which the ordinary person was likely to interpret it, as meaning that the price control and rationing regulations were no longer to be enforced by his Department. He informed me that that was not a correct interpretation of his statement. I then asked him as a supplementary question — it seemed to me to arise naturally out of the main question—whether it was his intention that traders subject to price control and rationing regulations would continue to be inspected by his Department. He replied that was a separate question. The separateness of the question was not very apparent to me, and hence this further discussion of the matter on the motion for the adjournment.

If it is the intention of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to continue to enforce price control and rationing regulations so long as they may be necessary, I want to know how he is going to do it. One could hope to enforce such regulations by the publication of appeals through the Press or by the occasional expression of a pious wish that people would observe the regulations. If there is to be a continued enforcement of these necessary regulations, it must necessarily involve some inspection of the traders to whom they apply: some effort to ascertain whether, in fact, the regulations are being observed by them, and some procedure by which those who fail to observe the regulations will be brought to account. If it is possible to have a system of inspection without inspectors then the Minister for Industry and Commerce can be credited not merely with a remarkable innovation but a rather successful economy.

I am rather reluctant to stop the Deputy in his wanderings, but none of the matters to which he refers were mentioned in the question to-day. There was one specific point in the question and the Minister got an answer to that.

I got anything but a clear answer. The question I asked was whether price control and rationing regulations were to be enforced by his Department.

Did the Minister's statement concerning pip-squeaks mean that these regulations are not to be enforced by his Department?

I suggest that you ought to read your own question.

The question was: "To ask the Minister for Industry and Commerce if his reference in a recent public speech to pip-squeaks of inspectors is to be interpreted as meaning that price control and rationing regulations are no longer to be enforced by his Department."

To which I replied, "no."

It is because I regarded that as an unsatisfactory reply that I am now elaborating the question by asking the Minister if he is taking measures to ensure that price control and rationing regulations will be enforced by his Department, and to outline the measures by which he is going to enforce them. Can I get an answer to this question: Is there to be continued inspection of traders to whom these regulations apply, and if there is is that inspection to be done by inspectors, or how is it to be done? If it is to be done by inspectors, will it be done by the inspectors who have been doing it recently?

If you wanted to know that why did you not ask it?

I am asking it now.

It is irrelevant now.

The Minister will have plenty of time to reply. Quite clearly the Minister had some specific purpose in mind when he made his statement that traders are not going to be annoyed by pip-squeaks of inspectors. He wanted to convey some idea to those listening to him. What was the idea? Did he intend to inform traders subject to these regulations that they need no longer be afraid of inspection by officers of the Department of Industry and Commerce, that they were free to keep or to break the regulations without fear of penalty, or was he merely giving a gratuitous insult to the officers of his own Department engaged on a rather unpleasant public duty, but a public duty none the less?

"The Minister" will have plenty of opportunity of developing this if he wishes afterwards. I just want to save "the Minister" from being continually irrelevant while sitting over there. I again draw attention to the fact that "the Minister" is talking about matters that do not arise on the question.

He is a Deputy, not a Minister.

I do not like to be rubbing it in too much.

I think that Deputy Morrissey forgets that he is now Minister for Industry and Commerce and is continuing to forget it.

It is a pity you cannot forget it.

While it is probably true to say that in the debates of this Dáil my name appears more frequently than that of any other Deputy, I have never interrupted. I am rather proud of that record and hope to keep it. I ask to be protected against these interruptions. I ask the Minister to answer a few questions. Are the traders who are subject to price control and rationing regulations going to be compelled to observe these Orders? If so, how, and is any effort going to be made to see whether they are observing the Orders? If any effort is to be made by the inspectors of the Department, will the inspectors be the same inspectors as those who have been doing the work previously? These are simple questions that the Minister can answer. If he made a mistake when he was talking and forgot that he was Minister for Industry and Commerce, if he forgot that those people he was insulting were his own officers, were responsible to him and under an obligation to carry out their duties under him and admits that, I will withdraw the question.

The Deputy has said all that on three occasions.

I was interrupted.

I am trying to give fair play. I am sure the Deputy will agree that I am prepared to do that. I have gone so far that on three different occasions I gave him the chance of saying that.

The Deputy was interrupted.

I take it that the enforcement of order will be maintained without reference to Party differences.

May I point out that I am entitled to talk here for 20 minutes without interruption from the Minister?

If you are relevant.

It is the duty of the Chair to see that I am.

The Deputy should not get angry with the Chair. I am doing my best to maintain order and to hold the balance between the various Deputies of the House. I have already pointed out that the Deputy repeated himself three times.

I promise not to repeat myself if the Chair undertakes that I am not interrupted.

There is an order against repetition. It is the duty of the Chair to maintain order.

Am I not entitled to talk here for 20 minutes on this question if I like?

Within the rules of order?

Am I not entitled to talk without interruption?

The Chair endeavours to protect all Deputies from interruption and expects Deputies to help it to do that.

Am I to take it that you are ruling that the only thing I am entitled to do is to repeat the question that I asked at question time?

I have allowed the Deputy to develop the point. He has repeated himself three times which must bring to the mind of the Chair that clearly there is nothing else to be said.

I have a great deal more to say if the Chair will let me. The inspection of traders who are subject to these regulations is, I think, a necessary measure, if the regulations are to be enforced. I have said that it is a rather unpleasant duty for those who have to do it, but it is a necessary duty in the public interest. It is true that the great majority of traders keep the law, try conscientiously to keep the law, but there is a minority who do not, a minority who have repeatedly endeavoured to offend against rationing regulations, or against price control Orders. The fact that they are so offending against these Orders can be found out only by means of personal inspection of their records and accounts by inspectors of the Department. If they are so detected, they are of course liable to prosecution, and the evidence to sustain a prosecution must be procured through the work of inspectors. Therefore, it is quite clear that if we are to have this work done properly, there must be inspectors who are conscientiously endeavouring to discharge it. I doubt very much if the description of these individuals in the contemptuous term used by the Minister is likely to secure from them the loyal and conscientious service which they would normally be disposed to give to any head of the Department, no matter what his politics.

This is clearly an occasion upon which the Minister made a very serious blunder, and I think it is his duty to the officers for whom he now speaks, as well as to the public whom he misled, to apologise to the one and to explain to the other that he did not mean what he said. It is a necessary precaution for the public that these price control Orders and rationing Orders should be enforced, so long as they are necessary. I hope it will not be long until they cease to be necessary; but, while they are necessary, it is clearly the case that it serves the public interest to maintain them, and, if there is a public interest in maintaining them, there is an obvious public interest in enforcing them, because if some traders can successfully disregard price control and rationing Orders, they are getting an unfair advantage over the traders who are conscientiously trying to comply with them and it is the duty of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to see that those who want to get that advantage are prevented from doing so. He can do that only by having inspection carried out by officers of his Department who are conscientiously doing their work and doing it with full regard for the public interest they are serving.

I do not know how the Minister hopes to get such service from his officers by making observations concerning them such as those he is reported as having made. The Minister does not deny that he made the remark. If he denied that he made the remark, this question would not have gone further; if he had the common sense to express his regret for having made the remark, that would have ended it; but now that he has obviously decided to stand over it, it is clearly necessary for him to explain precisely what he meant by it. That is all I am asking him to do.

The possibility is that the uncontradicted report of the remark and the attitude of the Minister in standing over it will be interpreted by some traders as meaning that they can now, with impunity, overcharge for controlled commodities or sell in the black market, and that impression will obviously be reinforced by the action of the Minister in restoring trading licences to those who lost them because of serious price-control or black-marketing offences, or repeated offences of that kind. As I have said, the traders who engage in these illegal practices are a very small minority of the great body of traders, but it is in the interest of those who keep the law that they should be restricted and in the interest of the public that those who break the law should be detected and punished for it.

That is why I put down the question — to give the Minister an opportunity of remedying his mistake, of repairing his blunder, of setting the situation right by a clear statement of his attitude. His unsatisfactory reply made it necessary for me to raise the matter on the adjournment. I will give him an extra five minutes to explain precisely what he meant and precisely what the attitude of his Department is to be in future in regard to the enforcement of these very necessary Orders relating to price control and rationing.

I must say that I am deeply touched by the Minister's concern for me and for what he alleges are my blunders. I know Deputy Lemass for over 20 years. I know him so well that I am quite sure that his concern to keep me on the straight and narrow is quite sincere. The Deputy himself, during his 16 years in office, kept so rigidly on the straight and narrow path that he naturally would not wish to see his successor getting off it. The Deputy told us that he had two reasons for raising this matter here to-night — one, that he was not satisfied with the answer, and I am quite sure he was not, and the other, that he wanted to teach me how unwise it was for me to lose my temper. He then proceeded to give us a very nice exhibition of a person losing his temper. The Deputy reminded the Chair that he had the right to speak for 20 minutes, and he almost accused the Chair of being unfair to him, of being biased against him. If the Chair ruled rigidly according to the rules, the Deputy would not be able to speak for more than two minutes.

The Minister must not criticise the Chair by a sidewind.

I am not criticising the Chair; I am criticising the Deputy who alleged that the Chair was not giving him fair play.

What about the pip-squeaks?

I will come to them. Let me assure Deputy Killilea that, when I talked about pip-squeaks, I had not got him in mind. The question asked to-day was:

"To ask the Minister for Industry and Commerce if his reference in a recent public speech to pip-squeaks of inspectors is to be interpreted as meaning that price-control and rationing regulations are no longer to be enforced by his Department."

A plain "yes" or "no" was the answer to that, and I gave a plain "no" to it. That is the reason the Deputy was not satisfied. Perhaps it is because the Deputy has not yet learned how to draft questions. He is concerned for the public welfare. When did that concern begin? Is it since the Deputy took his seat on the far side? The Deputy, when sitting over here, did not show the same concern for the public welfare as he is now showing. Perhaps if he had, there would be fewer difficulties to be faced by the present Government and less necessity for a number of questions, including some of his own. The Deputy knows, first, that that statement appeared only in one daily paper, the Irish Press.

You kept it out of the others.

I did not. Deputy Killilea imagines that this Government is going to do its work according to the methods employed by the Fianna Fáil Government. It is not. The statement appeared only in the Irish Press and it was lifted entirely out of its context. Deputy Lemass knows that I was referring to the policy and the methods which were imposed by him and his Department, when he was Minister, on these inspectors. He himself described them as unpleasant duties which had to be carried out in a very unpleasant way. I have not divested myself of any of the powers which Deputy Lemass enjoyed. I have at least as much concern for the public welfare as Deputy Lemass has, and, if the Deputy is concerned merely about the public welfare, let me assure him that if there are any abuses by traders, manufacturers or others, I will take whatever steps are necessary to put an end to these abuses.

The Deputy, of course, is a mischief-maker. The Deputy is trying to suggest that these inspectors will not carry out their duties in future. If that is the opinion he has of his staff after 16 years, it is not the opinion I have after 16 days. Let me tell the Deputy that it will not be difficult for me to keep as high a standard in my Ministerial office as he kept. Without very much difficulty, I can reach a much higher standard.

The country realises that and appreciates it.

They do — and as time goes on they will appreciate it all the more. Let the Deputy make up his mind now that, for whatever length of time he is in this House, long or short, he is going to be on that side of the House and not over here.

You never know.

You are finished!

The Minister will need to bring some more forces down to Galway to see whether I am or not.

When I said: "You are finished!" I was not referring to the Deputy personally; I meant the whole Party.

Inneosfaidh an aimsir.

Deputy Ó Briain is, I would say, the last man the people of West Limerick will turn down.

Ní thuigeann sé an méid sin.

Why are they tempting me? It is not fair to a new Minister to be tempting him and trying to put him off the track. Anyway, let me assure Deputy Lemass that he can set his mind at rest, he can be at peace, he can go home and sleep soundly. The officers of the Department are quite safe and the public is quite safe. I can secure perhaps better results than the Deputy was able to secure, by changing the methods of inspection. If the public welfare or the community interest is ever threatened, I have all the powers I want and I will have no hesitation in using them.

Would the Minister answer the question?

Which question? The Deputy asked about 20.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. to 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 10th March, 1948.

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