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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 May 1948

Vol. 110 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 6—General (Resumed).

Question again proposed:—
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(Minister for Finance.)

Major de Valera

Before we adjourned last week, the Minister questioned the interpretation I put upon the latter portion of his statement, particularly the portion in which he referred to standstill Orders when he said that, if inflationary forces are to be prevented from getting completely out of hand, there may be no alternative to restoring the machinery of control embodied in the various standstill Orders. I took the Minister, in his remarks across the House to me at that time, as seeking to exclude from that statement the wages standstill Order which, on any showing, would naturally be included in the phrase "various standstill Orders." It is a matter of some importance to the House and to the community to know exactly where the Minister and his Government stand on this point, and I should therefore like to follow up what I have already said on that head by asking the Minister to let us know exactly where we stand in regard to these standstill Orders affecting the remuneration of employees. If, as he sought to convey to me across the House, there is no intention of ever imposing again such a control, in view of the discussion which has taken place, the Minister should definitely say so and clear the air, as there has been a certain amount of speculation on the matter.

If it is now definitely decided by the Government that no such control would be contemplated in any circumstances, he should let us know. On the other hand, if, in that phrase, as would appear from an ordinary reading of the paragraph, such controls are visualised as a possibility, the Minister had better tell us frankly where we stand. There are demands being made at present that are likely to have serious repercussions on the population of Dublin, for instance, and there are other factors in the economic situation which make it very desirable, if not necessary, that we should know exactly where we stand on such a vital matter. Beyond putting to the Minister that direct question and asking him to define exactly where we stand in that regard, I do not propose to pursue the matter further at this stage.

Taking the Minister's Budget as a whole, I think it is a fair inference to say that he seems to have approached the Budget on the assumption that the inflationary situation is to continue, or at least that it exists at the moment— that inflationary pressures are things to be taken into account. If it is so, how does the Minister's Budget stand with regard to the social needs of the community? Is it a good thing, for instance, in such a situation, that the one outstanding relief which the Government has been able to give us, namely, a relief in regard to beer, tobacco and entertainment, should be given when we are unable to give reliefs in other directions? Is that good public policy in such a situation?

Does Deputy de Valera agree that there is an inflationary situation at the moment?

Major de Valera

Will the Deputy allow me to develop my speech? I am saying that the Minister apparently approached his Budget on that basis, and in fact I will deal with both aspects. If that is the approach, is it a good thing to have let up on these particular items, and, while we are unable to give substantial reliefs in matters affecting the income on which families live, while we are unable to give substantial reliefs with regard to the more necessary aspects of the problems of taxation and the cost of living, is it a good thing to have given these reliefs, instead of balancing it out over all the possible sources of revenue which the Minister has at his disposal?

What can you expect from the Budget, granting that the situation is to continue as it has existed during the past year, that is, a situation in which apparently inflationary pressures were at work? I am taking it from that point of view first and I hope I shall be able to make it clear to Deputy Larkin.

Taking it from that point of view, what are the likely repercussions of this Budget on the ordinary man in the street? I, as a Deputy representing a city constituency, as does the Minister, will naturally ask the question: what is the effect of this Budget in such circumstances likely to be on the class which form perhaps the bulk, or a large portion, of our constituents, namely, the worker and the white collar worker? The worker in the manual grades has certain protections, certain organisations and certain strength, but the worker in the white collar grade has been prone to suffer from changes which increase taxation or the cost of living rather more than other categories of workers, and it is only fair to look at this Budget on the premises which I have taken to see what the effect on these white collar workers could be.

First, income-tax is to go up by 6d. in the £. That in an increase. The removal of the subsidy on margarine and oatmeal is at least going to tend to put the price of these commodities up, commodities which are consumed by that class of people. In fact, I understand, if the newspapers are correct, that even during the past week, the price of margarine has risen. I do not say that it has risen as a result of the Minister's proposal, but it has risen, or I understand it has. This proposal to withdraw the subsidy will be only a push in the same direction. Then, a number of these workers, as I pointed out already, are constrained to have certain meals in the city. The removal of the subsidy on tea, butter and sugar can only have the effect of tending to put up the price of meals consumed in the type of establishment which these workers frequent, the type of establishment which has no way of offsetting the increase in these items such as the big hotels have. I am arguing again on the assumption that the situation will continue as it has been heretofore. What the Budget offers then, in addition to the increase in income-tax, is merely a promise to these people that they shall pay more for the food they are forced to consume outside their own homes during working hours. In addition to that they may have to pay higher bus fares. I do not seek to blame all the increases which may accrue completely on the Budget but the fact remains that these particular workers are faced in the near future, if economic conditions continue as they have been, with the prospect of an increase in income-tax, an increase in the price of food consumed outside their own homes and an increase in the price of oatmeal and margarine and transport. All these increases are indicative of the trend of economic events.

The Budget contributes to that situation. If the Minister and his Government were determined to reduce the cost of living and to reduce taxes—reductions which they promised definitely and vehemently during the election campaign—surely some effort should have been made by them under this Budget to cope with the problem I have outlined and to do something to reduce the cost of living rather than to move in the definite direction of an increase. That is my criticism in the main of this Budget in so far as it affects these people on the assumption of a continuing situation.

You are not forgetting the £6,000,000 remission?

Major de Valera

The £6,000,000 remission is not quite in point on this.

It is fairly relevant.

Major de Valera

I am dealing with the situation as it exists. The £6,000,000 remission might have involved a further increase. The removal of the £6,000,000 does not tend to reduce actual taxation or the actual cost of living at the moment.

Why? Where will you get the £6,000,000?

Major de Valera

That is the point I am making.

But where would it be got?

Major de Valera

I am talking about taxation at the moment and taxation when the Minister came into power. I have to speculate as to what taxation might have been had the Minister not come into power. The Minister and his Government are in power now. The Minister has the reins in his hands. The Minister and his coadjutant Parties promised a reduction in taxation and a reduction in the cost of living—presumably a reduction below the level at which taxation and the cost of living stood at that time. This Budget makes no reduction at all in the categories I have mentioned, either on the basis of taxation or on the basis of the cost of living.

What about the £6,000,000?

Major de Valera

If the Minister wants an answer to his question as to the £6,000,000, what he has done is taken a number of sums—I would have to make the whole thing up again and, in doing so, repeat the speech I have already made. I have no intention of doing that. The point I want to make is that from the time of the introduction of the Supplementary Budget the Minister talked about excessive taxation and the high cost of living. Promises were made that the cost of living would be brought down and that the volume of taxation would be reduced. The promises made then must have related to the level of taxation and to the level of the cost of living at that particular time. The Minister has not brought down either taxation or the cost of living taken in relation to that time. In fact the Minister's proposals directly increase taxation in regard to income-tax and tend to increase the cost of living in the various items I have detailed. Admittedly the Minister has taken off the tax on beer, cigarettes and entertainments. As he has pointed out himself in some part of his Budget speech, he banks on that fact as an argument in excuse for levying further contributions.

This Budget does not in my opinion give us any very definite indication of policy or as to the aims of the coalition. On the premise that the status quo continues in regard to inflationary pressures, I fear that this Budget moves in the wrong direction. If it is moving in the wrong direction what compensation is there for the losses and inconvenience that are likely to result from those things which have been subjected to the axe by the present Government since it came into office? What compensation is there for the curtailment of turf development, mineral development, and so forth?

Deputy Lemass, at Column 1214 of the Unrevised Report, Volume 110, No. 10, asked: "What projects are to be dropped?" The Minister's reply was: "There is a long list of them." I would like the Minister, at this stage, in fairness to the House, to disclose to us exactly what that list comprises. If there is a long list of projects that are going to be dropped, what compensation will be made to the country for dropping them? The argument is that these things must be dropped under the heading of an alleged economy in order to reduce taxation and the cost of living. Where is the reduction in taxation?

£6,000,000.

Major de Valera

There is no reduction of £6,000,000.

Major de Valera

There is no reduction of £6,000,000 in existing taxation. There is a reduction in an Estimate which was not implemented by the Budget when the Minister came into office. That is an Estimate for the future. I am dealing with the present. I am dealing with the facts as they were in January. I am dealing with the position as it exists up to the present time.

If you drink, or smoke, or go to the cinema you must know that there is a reduction.

Major de Valera

The level of taxation is identical with that which existed during the year 1947-48. A certain cost of living operated during that period. I am referring to that. I say that the Minister neither reduced taxation nor the cost of living with reference to that year.

Is the Deputy serious in that?

Major de Valera

I am.

It is absurd. The £6,000,000 was there in taxation and I threw it away.

Major de Valera

Let me take it another way. The Minister says that taxation on beer, cigarettes and tobacco was removed. It was, and I think I have been careful at all times to concede that to the Minister. But you cannot call that a reduction in taxation because it is in a different category.

Is it not a reduction? What can you call it then?

Major de Valera

I am talking about overall taxation and I am talking of the actual burden of taxation which the citizen has to bear. The burden which the citizen has to bear comes primarily from direct taxation, such as income-tax and the cost of essentials.

And beer, and tobacco.

Major de Valera

We have surely to take these into account at first.

And on the most direct things.

Major de Valera

I questioned the wisdom of the Minister in giving relief in these particular categories when there is no relief in other categories. In so far as that is concerned I suggest to the Minister that it would have been preferable to even out reliefs more in order to get a better balance. To a large extent this Budget might be described as robbing Peter to pay Paul. The Minister has not really reduced taxation; he has merely displaced the burden—altered the manner in which the burden will be carried. So far as the cost of living in regard to essentials is concerned, the situation is as I have outlined it.

I know the Minister will make great play with the fact that he has reduced the taxation on cigarettes, beer and entertainment. I am not trying to take away from that; I am admitting that fact without any question. But, in regard to the real burden which the taxpayer has to bear, the thing he cannot adjust for himself, the Minister has not improved the position. The taxpayer can adjust his bill with reference to the not so necessary articles; the things on which he cannot adjust the burden are the necessaries of life which he has to pay for out of his income and which comprise some of the items I have mentioned. In that way there is no substantial benefit accruing to him from this Budget. That is so particularly with many of the poorer and more thrifty families who do not spend a large proportion of their incomes on the items which the Minister has exempted. They get no benefit from this Budget; instead, if the present situation continues, there is the possibility that they will be faced with an increase in taxation and an increase in the cost of living.

I did not intend to go back, but the Minister has brought me back to the exemptions on beer, cigarettes and tobacco. It has cost the State a great deal to make these concessions which the Minister is giving, and which undoubtedly are very popular. We have catered for particular interests, but where will we stand in relation to certain matters which will arise in the coming year and for which no provision is made in the Budget? I have in mind such things as a review of the situation in the Civil Service and the position of the national teachers. There is no provision in the Budget for that and the relief has been all rather one-sided. From that point of view I also criticise the Budget.

All I have said is based on the assumption which I read into the Minister's speech that we were to expect a continuance of the situation which existed during 1947-48 from the point of view of inflationary prices. Where are we if the situation changes? If the inflationary period passes we may tend more towards a slump and if that situation arises what provision does the Budget make for the future? What will be the position in regard to our economic and commercial life? Is there anything in the Budget which visualises such a situation? As Deputy Lemass pointed out, there are certain indications and it would have been wise on the Minister's part to take such a possibility into account and to disclose to us our line of action if such a situation were to develop. Already we have problems in regard to some industries. For instance, there have been some complaints from the boot industry.

The argument which I have been advancing does not attempt to pretend that the Minister has not reduced taxation on beer, cigarettes and entertainment, but, in effect, that concession does not contribute to a reduction of the general level of taxation as borne by the man in the street. It is probably unwise to do that in such a wholehearted way if we do not adjust the other items which call for adjustment and if the Government are to embark on a policy of retrenchment. That, in a nutshell, is my criticism. Is it right to start at that end under present conditions as a matter of general policy? I ask the Minister to make quite clear what he meant by the last paragraph of his speech when he referred to various standstill Orders. It is a matter of some importance for the community. As long as that position is not clear, there will be unrest. The Minister owes it to the House and to the country to make clear where he and his Government stand.

I should like to congratulate the Minister upon his Budget. I believe it is the duty of every member of the House, no matter what his private views may be, to approach the debate on this Budget with a serious realisation of the issues involved. I am not against the Government spending money. I believe that in order to encourage trade and industry the Government should provide a standard of living of a high order. When I say that I have in mind the fact that this is a country with very limited means. We have not the resources possessed by other countries of our own size and with our own population. Our means are limited and I believe that our approach to this discussion should be based upon a realisation of that fact.

A second matter which we should have regard to is this—the circumstances existing when this Budget was introduced. In the year 1948 the Government in any country, and particularly in this country, occupies a position of difficulty which was not envisaged as the position in which an ordinary democratic country in ordinary times would find itself. We are operating at the moment as a democracy in shackles and that is due to a number of circumstances. First of all, it is due to the fact that in recent years, during the war and since then, there have been a great deal of shortages in the world which had repercussions on this country. As a result of that, there came into being a system of licences and control both of individuals and their activities and of other matters. Some of these undoubtedly were necessary. Some of them were possibly necessary for the survival of our economy here, but the recent Administration which has now gone out of office took the opportunity offered by the necessities of the situation, the shortages and so on, to increase the occasions for issue or non-issue, the imposition or non-imposition of control.

A third thing which affected the situation was this. In spite of the fact that we have here proclaimed ourselves to be a pure democracy, by legislations and regulations under legislation we have put a curb upon private activity and incentive by various Acts of Parliament which have been passed during the past few years.

We have got to approach the Budget which the Minister for Finance has placed before us in those circumstances. As a result of the Budget he has got to let loose taxation upon this country which might operate in an entirely different way if we were free from those controls and licences which we have imposed on our industrial and commercial life and on the production of our goods. I would refer as an illustration to one specific problem at the moment, that of our transport. One of the necessary ingredients for the revival of trade and industry is that we should have efficient transport. We should have our transport so organised that the producer of wealth in one corner of the country, no matter what that wealth amounts to, be it only a thimbleful, a truck load or a whole train load, should not be embarrassed in any way in the delivery of his goods from the point of production to the consumer. What we have built up here, however, is a system of monopoly in transport and we have imposed a terrible clog on the productive efforts of persons living in this country. The instance which I propose to give is a matter which must have come under the notice of every Deputy since the change of administration. I suppose that there is scarcely a Deputy in this House who does not receive at each post a letter from some constituent who wants to place before the Department of Industry and Commerce a requisition for a trade plate in order that he may haul for hire. The correct answer is, I gather, that the position is governed by legislation and that extra plates cannot be handed out, with the result that extra lorries are not on the road. My point is that the whole haulage system of this country—let us leave passengers out for the moment—is in two groups——

Would not that more relevantly arise on the discussion of the Vote for the Minister for Industry and Commerce?

I am endeavouring to make a point regarding certain problems which the Minister for Finance in introducing his Budget has to deal with and he has to deal with the country as he finds it.

Does not that mean making a reference to the transport position of the country at the moment?

With all respect, Sir, I am giving a slight picture of the transport which is available for the use of the public. I am not giving a picture of the administration but of what exists in the way of transport.

The availability of transport is a matter which concerns the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

I am the first person in the House to bow to the ruling of the Chair, and if the Chair rules that I am out of order I bow to his decision, but this has some bearing on the matter. Without wishing in any way to infringe upon the ruling of the Chair, I wish to make this point in connection with the position of transport in this country at the moment. We have built up that system so that it has deprived us of efficiency and thereby of cheapness. I believe that if a greater number of individuals were concerned in the transport business you would have greater efficiency and greater economy in transport.

The next matter with which I would like to deal in connection with giving a picture of the country to-day is that there has grown up here a certain atmosphere since we got self-government. Where the interests of Dublin City and other large cities are concerned versus the interests of country districts, in our outlook, our legislation and our administration, Dublin City invariably wins. I believe that to a large extent there is no malice behind that and that we have unconsciously slipped into that position. We have forgotten to realise that the real sources of wealth in this country exist outside its capital city. The general tendency and outlook of our economy is that where a country problem and a Dublin problem are concerned, then the important one is the Dublin one and that the country one can wait.

Another matter which I think relevant upon the Budget discussion is that we should have regard to the fact that our main industry, agriculture, is facing a crisis. I think it is probably a crisis that can be overcome by wise endeavour and by the exertions of all concerned. What I have to say now on this aspect is to a certain extent hindered by the ruling of the Chair that I am not to mention the question of transport, but the House will kindly read between the lines in my remarks and, without my mentioning transport at all, will probably gather what I am at. There is a crisis in our agricultural industry. We may as well face the fact and not hide our heads under a blanket. Agricultural wages cannot be related to the wages paid in industry at the present time. I freely admit that the agricultural labourer is paid a very poor wage. On the other hand, whatever may be the cause, production on the land and the wealth that results from production are not at the high level which would permit of a reasonable wage being paid. That is a problem that must be faced, whether we like it or not. It means, possibly, a very extensive reduction in the cost of living or a very big increase in wages. I think the better solution is a very extensive reduction in the cost of living, accompanied by increased production and increased marketing facilities. If there were increased marketing facilities, an opportunity would be afforded to the agricultural labourer of producing on his own bit of land and thereby increasing his income and, incidentally, his own cost of living. These are matters for consideration in a discussion on the Budget at the present time and in the present circumstances.

There is another matter which, I think, everybody has overlooked. It is this: everything in the world to-day is going up in price and we are in the proud position of telling the world that, regardless of that advance in prices, our Minister for Finance has brought down the Budget by £8,000,000. In other words, he has cut out the natural advance in price and, in addition, he has cut off a considerable portion. That advance in price has been overlooked. It might be very natural to assume that if the Budget last year was £69,000,000, if services remained as they were then, there would be an advance of £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 to correspond with the advance in price. The Minister for Finance has cut that out and, in addition, he has taken off £8,000,000, and in doing that he has provided additional benefits.

I believe you can prove anything by arithmetic. Some people go as far as proving what they want to prove by logarithms and slide-rules. In my opinion, the figure of £6,000,000 which has been discussed here for half an hour before I began speaking represents a reduction in taxation. I fail to understand the argument that, although the worker who goes out in the evening for his very necessary entertainment to buy a pint of beer and to smoke a packet of cigarettes is now getting it cheaper, there has not been a reduction in the cost of living. I fail to see that the same worker who finds that he has to take out of his pocket to-day so many less pence than he would have had to take out of his pocket three weeks ago for the same commodities can deny that there has been a reduction in taxation. It is obvious that, not only have we reduced taxation by £6,000,000 on one item alone, but we have done what is intended to be done by taxing generally, we have reduced the cost of living to the extent of £6,000,000, because that £6,000,000 was a direct levy on everyone who bought beer, cigarettes or entertainment. That is easy enough to understand and there is no use trying to prove the contrary because the particular individuals concerned, who had these additional taxes imposed on them, are not going about with their heads in the clouds.

The Minister for Finance when he took office had a very difficult part to play. You cannot arrest extravagance when it is in full flight and attuned to a certain machine without endangering the running of that machine. All that the Minister for Finance has been able to do for the present is to arrest that rush of expenditure and that volume of extravagance by putting on certain brakes without endangering the running of the State. The State has been organised to run in a certain direction and in a certain way for the past 16 years and, therefore, on the change of Government the problem which the Minister for Finance had to accept and to deal with was that there were certain plans already in operation, only some of which could be stopped speedily and others which it would take longer to stop.

As a motorist, I do not begrudge paying a few pence extra a gallon for petrol in order that the most deserving of our population should have some extra relief in their old age. The net effect of the additional charges in the Budget is that we have provided for additional benefits to the most deserving class in the community. There are some schemes which of necessity have had to be cut out. It would be very nice to have a short-wave station but we must face the fact that that is one of the things that we cannot afford at the present time. Our Minister for Finance is to be congratulated on what he has done. I do not think anyone should intervene in this debate either to praise or to condemn him without having carefully perused the Budget statement and analysed the figures the Minister gave in it. Those figures set out the problem which he had to meet. He had to find £77,000,000 in taxation —a legacy left over by the last Government.

If I have a word of criticism to offer on the way in which the leaders of the Fianna Fáil Party have dealt with this Budget statement it is this. They are quite entitled to seek to gain whatever political advantage can be gained by trying to drive wedges between the various sections of the inter-Party Government; they are quite right in trying to prove that the Minister is wrong in the conclusions he draws as to the results of his Budget. They came in here, however, as individually elected members of the Dáil and have a public duty to perform. Amongst other things, if they elected to remain out from the happy family on this side of the House and elected to go into opposition, the public duty imposed upon them then was to scrutinise with deadly accuracy the money intended to be spent by the public via this Budget and to cut down expense wherever possible. How have they discharged their duty in practice so far? They have gone into the Division Lobby against increasing income-tax, which they themselves increased; but when they came to the Financial Resolution dealing with wines, for some extraordinary reason this great democratic Party that sits opposite and which is against income-tax being increased is in favour of a duty remaining off wines. Then they have the nerve and the effrontery to get up here one after another and accuse the Minister for Finance—who has relieved the country of a burden of £8,000,000 taxation this year—of playing Party politics.

I think their attitude in this Budget debate is similar to their attitude when we came back here after the new Taoiseach had been elected and after the Ceann Comhairle had said that Deputies on that side of the House would come to this side and vice versa. I expected that the ex-leader of the Government, who had then become the leader of the Opposition, would have offered some word of congratulation and goodwill towards the new Government in this Christian State of ours.

That is quite irrelevant to the Budget debate.

I am using it to illustrate the argument. We have had no word of congratulation from that side of the House upon the magnificent achievement of the Minister for Finance in reducing the national bill by £8,000,000 and in giving additional benefits and relief from serious burdens to the unfortunate part of our community least able to bear heavy burdens.

Does the Deputy believe all that?

If the Deputy thinks I do not believe what I am saying, he is welcome to his opinion. I do not intend to give him an assurance on that point. If he had been here when I opened my remarks, he would have heard me say that when we come in here to discuss questions of this kind we should say what we believe. At all events, I do not intend to give the Deputy the satisfaction of telling him whether or not I believe that, because if I get up here to speak on matters of this kind I understand that fair-minded and decent-minded people here will believe that I do believe what I say. This is not a debating society, but a place where people come to discuss serious matters. I am not suggesting for one moment, in anything I have said here, that the Opposition do not believe what they are talking about. I am sorry that Deputy Allen, who represents a very fine constituency, as I do, should intervene, but I suppose he has to make a few remarks and I am sure we will hear his views on the Budget and as to whether we should not reduce taxation by £8,000,000 at the present time.

In a short and somewhat uneventful life I have often had occasion to be thankful that I had some small sense of humour. Listening to Deputy Lemass and the principal Fianna Fáil speakers in this debate, there has been need for a sense of humour. One hears Deputy Lemass speaking for more than an hour and pouring out his concern and sympathy for the members of the Labour Party in the terrible position in which they find themselves, of being caught in the Fine Gael web, he says, and wrapped up in politics completely contradictory to everything the Labour Party stands for. Then one is going either to laugh or to cry. Personally, I think it calls for laughter; but as far as Fianna Fáil is concerned it calls for crying.

Do not worry.

I am not worrying: the worry is all on your side. Fianna Fáil seem to have forgotten that they are no longer in office and that they may be a long time out of office. They have not yet adjusted themselves to that difficult position. As a debating team they have fallen considerably below the standard one would have expected. Possibly, as the years go by, they may acquire the ability to act as a team and build a line of argument which, even if not acceptable, would not leave them wide open to criticism. One would imagine that history stopped in 1932 and began again in March, 1948, and that in between all we have to remember are the sunny passages, that nothing has taken place except what is to the credit of Fianna Fáil and that no changes have taken place in this country in relation to social affairs or particular groups of the population represented by the different Parties.

A very great change has taken place. One of the reasons why Fianna Fáil is in opposition to-day and no longer the Government, may be that many of the forces and social groupings they represented in 1932 are no longer represented by them to-day and that Fianna Fáil have managed to acquire to themselves in 16 years the support of groups and social factors in the population which they would not have been particularly proud to represent in 1932. These are some of the reasons why the changes have taken place and why, to-day, the Fianna Fáil Party is out of Office. They are finding it exceptionally difficult, both as a Party and as individuals, to readjust themselves to the new situation and they are not making a particularly good show. I think it is fair to say, in regard to the Fianna Fáil Deputies and supporters, that when the change of Government took place they were patting themselves on the back and thinking that the new Government would probably last for about two or three months. They have now extended their estimate —possibly for another few months. They may even think that it is going to be a matter of years—it is—and it is as well for them to realise that it is going to be a matter of years. One of the tasks which faced the Labour Party was, to put it quite bluntly and plainly, to put the Fianna Fáil Party out of office. We did not do that in order to be inveigled back again into allowing the Fianna Fáil Party into office by the blandishments of Deputy Lemass. Maybe quite a lot of things happen which we do not like. Maybe there are a lot of policies which are not the Labour Party's policies. However, in every case we have to choose between the alternatives we have at the moment—what we have now or the Fianna Fáil policy and the Fianna Fáil administration. We have had 16 years' experience of that—in particular, we have had eight years of it—and so far, at least, the alternatives are in favour of the present position. We may change our mind some day and in due course we will notify the Fianna Fáil Party of the change and they can then take their advantage but, at the moment, it looks as if there will not be a change for quite a long time.

If the Fianna Fáil Party were to give less attention to the Labour Party and to its welfare than they have been giving to it over the past month or so it might be a lot better for the Fianna Fáil Party because it, of all the Parties, has the least occasion to express any concern in regard to the Labour Party, the trade union movement or the workers generally. Over a period of eight years they took from the working-class section of this country—those living on wages and salaries—such a large share of their income as to leave them in an impoverished condition whereas, on the other hand, they managed to avoid those large interests of profit and rent. In those eight years we had standstill Orders. We were supposed to have control of prices but how far that control was successful is illustrated by the fact that our cost of living rose by 84 per cent. On the other hand, a sum of £40,000,000 was paid out, over and above the sum paid out in 1938, in spite of the control of profits. In addition, Fianna Fáil, as soon as they could, took off the excess profits tax. We were supposed to have regard for all sections of the community yet it took the effects of a world cataclysm to get an extra 2/6 a week for the old age pensioners. Any concession given by Fianna Fáil was given with an ulterior motive—with the object of getting something out of it. When that Party thought they were strong enough to get along without bribes and concessions we found out what they were like. Before, therefore, touching on the Budget proper, and in order to save the members of the Fianna Fáil Party a great deal of wasted energy I would advise them not to be so concerned about the Labour Party. It is not going to pay dividends. Nobody on this side of the House has any apprehensions as to the difference in policies that exists between the Parties here. Nobody is trying to cloak it. We undertook a job which was endorsed by the people of the country and we shall try to carry it out. We shall have to carry on as well as we can and we shall try to knock off the hard corners. However, nobody is expected to forfeit or give up his basic principles.

The day may come when some Party on this side of the House will find that they cannot remain under this arrangement. If that day should come nobody will object when they pull out because it will be on the understanding that they have not broken faith—and that has been understood from the beginning. They are not going to be manoeuvred out by a lot of cheap criticism on the part of the Fianna Fáil Party when they know well that acceptance of that criticism means in fact Fianna Fáil administration and all that goes with it.

When we come to deal with the present Budget it seems to me that one strong argument to be made in its favour has not been mentioned, namely, that whatever the Budget may not be it is not, under any circumstances, a Fianna Fáil Budget. That is what we came here to do. It would be very interesting to know exactly what type of Budget we would have had this year if there had not been a change of Government. We had a foretaste of what it might have been like in the Supplementary Budget which was introduced by Fianna Fáil last year. When we come to regard the present Budget that point seems to me to be one of the main factors we have got to consider. We were presented with a position starting from October of last year—a line of fiscal policy in this country on the part of Fianna Fáil which was going to bear down even stronger than hitherto on the general masses of the people. Probably the most outstanding issue in the general election campaign was that Supplementary Budget. Whether it was subsequently good politics for the inter-Party Government to remove those taxes and create certain financial difficulties for itself is a question one is entitled to ask. One can be asked whether there was an instruction or a mandate from the people to remove those taxes.

Or to sell out to the publicans.

Whatever may have taken place, I consider that your Party was well paid by a much bigger and wealthier group. However, in so far as the Supplementary Budget was an indication of what was coming this year if the Fianna Fáil Party was in Government I think it is true to say that its Budget would not have been a pleasant surprise. To the extent of having been relieved of having to bear the Fianna Fáil Budget, that seems the chief argument that most people find in its favour—whatever their criticism of the details of the Budget or of its failure to deal with the different problems that require attention at the present moment may be.

Budgets are exceptionally important not merely from the point of view of providing an opportunity for a discussion on policy but also because they are probably the main instruments for giving effect to Government policy in the course of the year in question. Budgets are required not merely for the purpose of raising a certain sum of money and spending it but also to give effect to the industrial, commercial, economic and social policy of the Government in power. Therefore, they have got to be regarded not merely from the point of view of good accountancy but also from the point of view of the social and economic policy it is intended or hoped to achieve. I want to be quite frank that while I feel the Minister has carried out an exceptionally difficult job in a capable manner, I am not entirely happy about it. At the same time, and in order to stall the Fianna Fáil Deputies from asking me the same question which they have been asking me for the past few days, I am going to vote for this Budget because, if I were not to vote for it, I would be voting for something else, even worse.

Taking the Budget as a whole, I think even the Minister himself will agree that, even aside from the difficulties he had to face in regard to the short period of office and the legacy he inherited, and merely looking at the Budget in principle, it is not in any way satisfactory from his own point of view. Recalling many of the speeches made by him in the House, I do not think it expresses even what he hopes to include in a later Budget, because definitely the Budget is a fairly desperate attempt to meet a fairly desperate situation and that attempt had to be made under great pressure at very short notice and under tremendous handicaps. By this time next year, I do not think it is unfair to say that the Parties who go to make up the inter-Party Government can look forward to an improvement on the present Budget. I am not talking merely in terms of taxation or finance, but of the Budget as an instrument of policy, of directing the industrial and agricultural development of the country, and of providing the means and the pressure for improved wealth capacity. I do not think the Minister will quarrel with that principle. In the 12 months ahead, I think we will find that there will be an attempt on the part of the Minister to try to provide a basis on which a Budget can be formulated with these objects in view.

So far as the present Budget is concerned, I have stated that it has to be regarded in the light of the legacy left to the Minister and of the time factor and, from that point of view, I think it should be accepted as a good Budget. It has at least brought to an end a period during which there was a continuous rise in the pressure of finance on the backs of the masses of the people, with a continuous disregard of the claims of one of the sections of the people who are unable to make reasonable provision for their own needs because of old age or ill-health and other causes of that nature. It is also made a beginning in relating expenditure, not to the needs of a political Party or to a grandiose conception of the country's prestige, but as to the needs of the country from the point of view of providing facilities for the production of the national wealth which the country needs in the form of the products in the land and factories. With that beginning I think, as I said, that next year we will be able to get a Budget which will be, not only good from the point of view of the immediate situation, but which will give us a prospect also for the future.

So far as the actual items of the Budget are concerned, Deputy de Valera made considerable play with the repeal of the Supplementary Budget taxation. He suggested that there should be some kind of balance between the price of beer and the amount paid in income-tax. My quarrel is not that the Supplementary Budget taxation was taken off but that we have not had a more drastic approach to the question of income-tax. Similarly, in regard to the provisions set out in the Budget for an improvement in regard to old age pensions and widows' pensions, and particularly an adjustment of the means test, these are in themselves quite frankly merely the first steps and it is expected outside this House that considerably more will become available later this year for the sections of the community affected.

Deputy Lemass, in the course of his speech, said that if Fianna Fáil had remained in office a general social security code would probably have been put into legislation by now. I doubt that very much. I doubt if they had got past the figures stage, even if we give them credit for desiring to introduce such a social security code. However, we have the advantage now that we are not depending on the political foibles of Fianna Fáil. When that social security scheme is to be introduced is a matter that we can decide, because there is not only unanimous opinion on this side of the House in regard to it, but there is a unanimous call in the country generally for improvements in regard to old age pensions and widows' pensions assessments and the conditions with regard to the means test at a later period of the present year.

One important thing about the Budget is that we have had no large increase of that most objectionable feature, namely, indirect forms of taxation. So far as petrol is concerned, the increase is limited in scope and I can see no reason why the effect of it should be passed on to any extent so far as fares are concerned. The question has been asked in the House whether there will be an increase in bus fares in the City of Dublin.

When one realises that Dublin is already contributing a surplus of some £300,000 per year to the general transport system of the country, I think the time has come when Dublin citizens should be looking for concessions instead of adding to that very large surplus which is now thrown into the common pool. Generally, I think the Budget can be regarded as a good one in the sense that it has steadied the position, met the immediate claim that the electorate made on the Parties on this side of the House to repeal the Supplementary Budget taxation, and has given commitments so far as improvements in social services are concerned.

Having paid those tributes to the Budget to the extent to which it is entitled, it is equally fair to indicate in what way we feel the Budget could be improved, if not for this year, at least for next year. The Budget is a particularly awkward problem for an inter-Party Government to handle because, no matter what may be the consultation as between the members of the Cabinet, eventually when it comes down to the real task it becomes a question for the Minister for Finance and, naturally, his political views and his personal idiosyncrasies affect his decisions. It is, I think, indicative of the possibilities facing the inter-Party Government for some considerable time ahead that on this first and most difficult problem it has been possible to arrive at a Budget that, while not meeting the viewpoint and the requirements of all the Parties associated together, has not given rise to any great difficulties of acceptance on the part of those Parties or their members.

So far as the Labour Party is concerned, we feel that the main characteristics of the Budget that we as a Party will be looking for next year, when probably we shall be much more vocal and critical than this year, are in the direction that the Budget will give to the country definite guidance in regard to improving the productivity both in industry and agriculture. Recently there has been a somewhat new development in so far as the organised trade union movement is concerned in that it has been accepted, probably for the first time in any largescale sense, that the trade unions must take an active and leading rôle with regard to this problem of productivity. It has been laid down on behalf of the national bodies that, while they accept responsibility and while it is essential in order to improve the standard of living of our people that there must be a greater capacity for producing wealth in goods and services, the production of that wealth must give to those who produce it a certain return in the form of guarantees that that increase of wealth will be applied to the needs of the producers and the masses of the people generally and will not be merely a further source of enhanced income for those who already live upon the wealth-producing capacity of the people as a whole. Secondly, that there will be afforded to the workers and their organisations reasonable and growing opportunities for participation in the actual management of industry.

We have reached a period, both in this country and other countries, when the workers have shown by their capacity that they are as capable as any section of the community of undertaking supervising and managerial rôles in industry. If they are to be required to accept responsibility as part of the community, then they must have the same rights in regard to industry that they enjoy to-day with regard to the political control of the country —the right to participate and take an active part in the higher councils of supervision and management in so far as industry and commerce are concerned.

There is one other matter to which reference has been made on a number of occasions both by the former Minister for Finance and leading speakers of the Fianna Fáil Party, and that is the need for bringing about a more equitable distribution of the national wealth and the national income of the country as a whole. The other day, having listened to Deputy Lemass, I looked through the report of the Revenue Commissioners and discovered that so far as the payment of death duties is concerned, it is only related to estates which exceed £1,000 in value. I found that the total number who come within the purview of the Revenue Commissioners in this matter is less than 100,000 out of a total population of 3,500,000. It is easy to realise, therefore, that there is need for some more equitable distribution of wealth in this country than we have at the moment. I agree that the extremes of wealth and its opposite are not as marked here as they are in other countries, but yet they are marked sufficiently to require some adjustment. Unless that adjustment is made you are going to have the social stresses and strains that are common to all countries living under the present capitalist system.

I recall that Deputy Aiken, when he was Minister for Finance, accepted the point of view that a Budget should have that objective before it. He may not have agreed with the actual extent of the objective, or with the actual redistribution that should take place. But definitely something should be attempted in that direction. It should be one of the prospects kept in mind in the formulation of the next Budget.

I also think that a Budget ought to have regard to the ever-increasing burden that has developed in the country in the form of indirect taxation. I asked the Minister the other day, by way of Parliamentary Question, whether he could give figures indicating the relative proportions of that burden in the form of direct and indirect taxation. He was clearly not able to give the figures and referred me to a Government publication. It would not be unfair to say, I think, that, in the main, the cost of Government is borne by indirect taxation of various kinds of taxes, customs duties or stamp duties that are passed on in the price of clothing, food, drinks and a thousand and one other commodities that are used by the ordinary man and woman with low incomes, while the amount of direct taxation, contributed by those better endowed with the world's goods in the form of income-tax, death duties, etc., represents a much smaller portion of the burden. It seems to me that that is a wrong principle. What it amounts to is that, in fact, we are taking the greater amount required for the government of the country from those who have got the smallest proportion of its wealth, and we are taking it in a most objectionable form—in a hidden form— which does not convey to the masses of the people the actual burden that they are required to bear.

There is one important feature of a Budget which, I think, we have got to stress. It has already been touched on in the present Budget, and that is that a Budget should be utilised as a means for directly or indirectly increasing purchasing capacity in the hands of the masses of the people—that is the ordinary working people in town and countryside. We should all realise that we have here a very large section of the community existing on such low levels of income that they are not able to purchase either our agricultural or industrial products. We have there a vacuum which requires to be filled. For a long time we have had about 80,000 people living on various forms of public assistance. If you add to that 80,000 their families and dependents, you get masses of people representing a tremendous potential market both for our agricultural produce and our industrial products if they were provided not merely with purchasing power but with the means which, possibly, in many ways would put them in a position of being able to take their part in the Government machine. When a man or a woman reaches the lowest rung of the ladder he or she requires not only a helping hand but a push. Measures of social security are not merely intended to be a form of State assistance for those who have been stricken by the ills of the flesh. They also have got a very positive part to play in the general economy. That is to be achieved through the distribution of the national income—the result of taxation policy—and the spreading back of part of it in the hands of those who will utilise it for the purpose of buying commodities, thereby adding to the market that we require for our producers on the land and in the cities. These are some of the main features that we have got to keep in mind as an inter-Party Government. No matter who is responsible for the formulation of the Budget we must accept it that we are going to carry out the responsibilities we have accepted as individual Parties.

So far as this Budget is concerned, the Fianna Fáil Party, while critical of everything that is being done under it and of what is not being done, had very few positive proposals of their own to make. They are quite entitled, of course, to take up that attitude. At the same time, I felt, as I did on those occasions when I had to criticise the Budgets introduced by that Party, that it is just not enough to tell a Minister for Finance that he should not do this or do that. One should try at the same time to put forward one's own proposals. A peculiar thing about all those who spoke from the Fianna Fáil Benches on the Budget was that not one of them, except Deputy Vivion de Valera—and he referred to it in a very limited way—made any suggestion whatever as to how and in what way they would have obtained the money that is being budgeted for. Fianna Fáil, of course, would have had to obtain a much bigger sum. Even such economies as are being made were not envisaged by Fianna Fáil and have been resisted by the members of that Party. It would be interesting to hear them on that particular question from that point of view.

There is one criticism that I want to make of this Budget. I think, in view especially of the Minister's personal statements in this House on many occasions, that it is regrettable that ways and means have not been found of reimposing the excess profits tax. I appreciate, of course, the fact that the amount of money that would be collected in the first year would be very limited, and that its collection might give rise to very practical difficulties. I feel, however, that from the point of view of the public morale, and seeing that excess profits clearly arise from the advantage that is being taken of the buying public, steps should have been taken to indicate that that situation is not going to be allowed to continue and that, therefore, the excess profits tax should be reimposed in some form.

The income-tax rate has been increased by 6d. in the £. I think the increase should have been more and should have been related to the higher income brackets. I do not think there was a great deal in Deputy Vivion de Valera's criticism of the increase in the income-tax rate as to how it will affect the white-collar worker. I do not think that either the white-collar worker any more than the manual worker is going to be called upon to pay any excessive amount in the way of income-tax. We do know, however, from the various white papers that have been circulated that during the period of office of the Fianna Fáil Government quite a large number of people managed to creep into the income-tax brackets running from £5,000 a year and upwards. I think they would be quite well able to pay much more than they will have to pay now. One has only to go to the Spring Show or to any large social function to see evidence of the fact that there is quite a lot of loose, idle money lying around that could be picked up to serve a very good social purpose. It is money that could be taken off those people, and might be put to a good purpose on behalf of the community as a whole. Some steps should be taken I suggest to make sure that large sums of loose money are not left floating around the country, money secured either from normal sources of income or through the more objectionable form of excess profits.

There are some other taxes that might be considered—possibly they were and were turned down owing to the fear that some practical difficulties might be encountered in their collection. Having regard to the large number of guests from outside countries to whom we seem to be giving hospitality, I do not think it would be objectionable to ask them to make some small contribution in the form of a tax on the hotel business. It is a very common form of tax in other countries. Perhaps it is that some practical difficulties would arise in enforcing that tax, but I think, dependent of course on the amount of the tax, it could provide a considerable sum for the Exchequer.

Similarly, we might have considered a tax on the importation of luxury motor cars. The first comment that one hears from visitors to this country is directed towards the very large number of highly-priced luxury cars we seem to be able to afford. I have little objection to anyone driving a large limousine but I would have still less objection if I knew that he had to pay a considerable tax when importing that car and that that tax was being utilised to assist the country in its financial difficulties. I mention these forms of taxation because I have some criticism to make in regard to some of the economy measures that it has been found necessary to introduce. I do not know what is the explanation—possibly the Minister will give us some explanation in his concluding speech but so far none has been forthcoming— as to the reason for cutting off the provision of £85,000 for mineral explorations. That seems to me a measure of economy which should not be introduced. The amount involved is very small and year after year we have been pressing for adequate and scientific exploration of our mineral resources. Even if it means that we have to try to find the money from some other source, I think we should have continued that provision. Possibly we may get an explanation similar to that made in regard to some of the other Estimates. We may be told that the reason that no money is being provided for this purpose is that no steps have been taken to carry out the exploration work for which provision had already been made and that as soon as the work can be done the money will be made available. I think some explanation is required from the Minister on that particular item.

In regard to the withdrawal of the subsidies on margarine and oatmeal, the amount involved is not very great, something like £195,000, but having regard to the fact that one of our primary aims is to reduce the cost of living, I think we should not take any step which even in an infinitesimal way would add anything to the cost of foodstuffs. Again without knowing the full explanation as to why the subsidies on oatmeal and margarine were removed, I think the matter might be reconsidered unless, as I say, there is some convincing explanation offered by the Minister for the Government's action.

In regard to the price of wheat and the arrangement which the Minister is proposing to make, I have no objection to spreading the actual form of the subsidy over five years but I do think we should be careful in regard to the price of wheat itself. As far as I understand the matter, since the commencement of the buying programme for the European Recovery Plan there has been strong pressure exercised on the price of wheat in the United States, and it may be that the price will start to rise again. If that is so, we may find ourselves in a difficult position. However, having regard to the financial position which we inherited from Fianna Fáil, it was inevitable that certain risks should be run in trying to reach a balance; but if we find later that our expectations in that regard have not been realised, we shall have to go back and try to rectify the position.

Speaking generally, while I feel that the Budget is acceptable in present circumstances, there are some features of it that I think call for further consideration in regard to what we should have in mind, so far as future developments are concerned—and I make Fianna Fáil a present of what capital they may try to make out of that statement. In addition to the Minister's actual Budget statement, he had a number of general remarks to make. He spoke of the need for economy and of curtailing expenditure as much as possible without, at the same time, seeking economies merely for the sake of economy. There is very grave need to avoid that danger. I think there is also a particular need to ensure that when we find ourselves, as we have done repeatedly, up against problems in which large sums of money are involved or under which commitments have been entered into for certain purposes, the justification offered for such expenditure should be carefully examined. We remember, for instance, the justification offered for the transatlantic air service.

We listened to Deputy Lemass making his plea almost with tears in his eyes but the only justification he could offer as to why we should initiate that service was that a question of national prestige was involved. I do not know what prestige there is in providing a luxury air liner for some foreign lady or gentleman to cross the Atlantic while our own people have to travel steerage.

Our own people make use of the liners, too.

A Deputy

What kind of people? The racketeers.

Do you know what it would cost to make a trip in an air liner?

How many people can afford to pay £82 single fare?

They did it.

They must have been travelling to the All-Ireland Football Final in New York.

When we come to deal with the tremendous bungle created by Fianna Fáil in regard to turf and fuel supplies, we find that there is a problem there, not only of money but of human beings, of men and women who have been thrown out of employment. We are up against the problem of ensuring that they are not made the innocent victims of the Fianna Fáil plan to build up a flamboyant political structure in this country.

So far as we can humanly arrange for it, we should not curtail expenditure in this way until we are in a position to afford some alternative employment for these people or to give them some reasonable period of notice during which they can take steps to seek other avenues of employment. We should not be driven, for the sake of saving a certain amount of money, into a policy of throwing men and women out on the streets, men and women who entered into this employment believing that they had reasonable hopes of security. They never realised when they took up these jobs that the whole thing was built on sand, built out of the monopolist control which Fianna Fáil was exercising in this country.

One matter upon which we have not been able to get any common opinion is the question of inflation. The Minister in the course of his remarks dwelt on the increased amount of money in circulation. He gave the indices for agricultural and industrial output and said that he was somewhat concerned about the problem. Deputy Lemass on the other hand seems to be satisfied that we have passed the stage at which inflation forces can be said to be at work and thinks that we have now come to the stage when there should be deflation. I tried to draw from Deputy Major de Valera a definite statement as to whether we were in sight of a period of inflation or deflation. I suggest that the Fianna Fáil speakers should get into a huddle before they come into the House to speak on these matters. Last October Deputy Lemass and Deputy de Valera were so convinced that there was inflation that we had to have a Supplementary Budget to try to absorb the excess money in the pockets of the workers. In addition, we were told that if we did not enter into an agreement to limit wages, we would have more standstill Orders. Yet Deputy Lemass thinks that the danger is now past. I do not know whether that is because Deputy Lemass is no longer Minister and has to make the contrary case.

It is very interesting to note that the gentlemen who defended the standstill Orders are now very worried as to whether the Minister is going to have further recourse to them. They were not so worried when, year after year, masses of workers in this country were appealing for some relief from these standstill Orders. There was no answer from Fianna Fáil when workers were compelled to accept increases of not more than 20 per cent. over the 1939 wages while the cost of living had gone up by 60 or 70 per cent. That was quite all right.

It suited Fianna Fáil to have a standstill Order then, and again in October, 1947, when we were told: "We have the voting machine in the Dáil and we will put this through, whether you like it or not." Now when things have changed, they are terribly concerned that somebody is going to put a standstill Order into effect again.

I have read the Minister's statement. I think it might have been more carefully worded, but I have no doubt that the Minister was not referring to the wages but was concerned with profits. It is as well, however, to make clear, not only to Fianna Fáil but to all other Parties, that, so far as the Labour Party and the trade union movement are concerned, we will not be a party to any compulsory standstill Order with regard to wages so far as workers are concerned. Deputy Boland may blink.

Mr. Boland

I am not blinking. I am taking no notice at all of the Deputy. I shall be answering the Deputy in a few minutes.

It is just as well; the Deputy will not get confused then. We entered voluntarily into negotiations at the end of last year and we arrived at an agreement. That agreement, incidentally, provides for considerably greater adjustments in wages than we would have got, if we had accepted the proposals made to us on behalf of the Government by Deputy Lemass, on the occasion of our discussion with him, and which, possibly, if accepted at that time, would have been made effective by legislation. However, that is by the way.

All I want to make clear is that, while we are prepared as part of the community to control our requirements by voluntary discussion and voluntary restriction, we are not going to be placed under compulsory restrictions so far as we can help it, when every indication is that the restrictions are required at the other end. That is why, when the Minister speaks of looking forward and expecting that it will not be necessary to reimpose the excess profits tax, I think he is expressing a hope which has very little chance of realisation. Last year, when the previous Government repealed the excess profits tax, the expectation was that either prices would be reduced or the money left to those who previously paid the tax would be ploughed back into the development and extension of industry. Looking through company reports, one finds that practically every company has, by some miraculous means, managed to pay higher dividends in 1947 than in 1946 and 1945 when they were paying the tax. It might be unfair to suggest that they are paying higher dividends because they are not paying the tax—I do not know—but higher dividends are being paid and in order to make good the money handed back to them—something under £5,000,000—Fianna Fáil found it necessary to impose the Supplementary Budget taxes on the ordinary man's drink, cigarette or pipe and seat in the cinema. That kind of thing is what we have to avoid.

I am convinced that if we want to have prices brought down, it can only be done by effective control. The circle is so complete that it is almost impossible, no matter how good their intentions, for individual manufacturers to take the initiative. It has got to be done through the medium of some overriding body which can take a whole section of trade or industry at a time and insist upon price adjustments right down the line. I recall that last year in America a voluntary movement was undertaken by many employers engaged in distribution in the direction of cutting prices. Many of them tried to carry out their promise and in certain streets every retail shop of every description voluntarily cut prices 10 per cent. The cut lasted about ten days because they were squeezed from top and bottom, and the general impression was that they had already added on 10 per cent. in advance of the cut, anyway. In the modern set-up with regard to industry and distribution, if we are to have effective price control, control which will reduce prices, that control must work right down the line, as has already been experienced by the previous Government, and must be made effective and given force. While I hope, with the Minister, that prayers will be answered, I am afraid that he will have to get back to his more militant days when he was on the other side of the House and use the iron fist, because these gentlemen do not listen to prayers.

I have listened very carefully to the speakers on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party and I have read such speeches as I did not have an opportunity of listening to, and I think that it is a reasonable question to put to them to ask them to tell us, if this Budget is so objectionable, what is the alternative. They had a fairly good general idea of the kind of Estimates they would have to meet, a fairly good general idea of the income available and long experience—16 years—of dealing with this problem. It is regrettable that they suffer at present from the absence of their shadow Minister for Finance— possibly he realised what he was facing —but there are other members of the Party who have had experience in that office and I should like them to say what is the Fianna Fáil alternative to this Budget.

An honest Budget— one that pays its way.

Out of whose pocket?

Out of the same pockets you are getting it from.

Will the Deputy go on to tell us who is going to pay the way? I have listened to Deputy Lemass and Deputy de Valera, the main Fianna Fáil speakers, who put forward extensive criticism, and I do not think it is unfair to put that question to them. If it is an honest Budget, as Deputy MacEntee says——

I have not said this is an honest Budget.

I refer to your Budget.

Yes, and always has been.

Who is going to pay for that honest Budget? Honesty seems to be at a premium sometimes around here because it is only a few months since we had leading speakers for Fianna Fáil in the election campaign expressing the viewpoint that our Party was full of people whose main job in life was to stir up industrial strife. Having carefully read some of the speeches now being made and the articles in the Party organ, and having watched the activities of supporters of Fianna Fáil, I suggest that Deputy MacEntee should look around his own Party and ask himself whether the charge he made against other people cannot now be fairly well placed elsewhere.

The difficulty is you have now gagged them.

If Deputies would address the Chair there would be no need for argument.

Have a little manners, Deputy.

Those are the main criticisms I wish to make on the Budget. We were called upon to put a halt to a certain course of action in existing circumstances. That has been done. We will achieve our expectations even earlier than we anticipated. The majority of the voters of this country have rejected Fianna Fáil. I do not think there is any danger of their having to choose that alternative again. We may not have achieved to the full at the present moment all our aims and objects, but where there is life there is hope and there will come another day.

Deputy Larkin's speech was for the main part a tirade against the Fianna Fáil Government. Fine Gael are now in power and if they are successful in doing for labour as much as the Fianna Fáil Administration did they will have done a good work for the country. One need only throw one's mind back to 1932 to see the position in which labour was then and compare and contrast that with the position in which labour is to-day, in order to discover all that was done for it in 16 years of Fianna Fáil administration. Labour is in a very much stronger position now than it was when we started. I hope that when this Government goes out of office that improvement will have been maintained or even improved upon. If one were to accept everything that the present Minister for Finance said when he was in opposition we would have some grounds for hope.

My main reason in rising here this evening is to remind the Minister of some of the things he has said, not only in 1932 but as late as last year. During his Budget speech there were times when I found it difficult to believe that the same person was speaking as the Minister who, when in opposition, was so vocal as to the causes of inflation. In the concluding portion of his Budget speech he said that "substantial wage and salary increases with such further additions as shorter hours, paid holidays, children's allowances and other increases in social services have gone as far as is possible in present circumstances to meet the claims of social justice." That rather surprised me. I, too, like Deputy Larkin and other Deputies in this House, was hoping that we were going to get something new from the present Minister. But there is even a threat of the reimposition now of the objectionable standstill Order. That was a measure which had to be imposed with a great measure of reluctance on our part at a time when we knew that if we multiplied the money in circulation the only result would be to make goods dearer.

I want to remind the Minister now of some of the things he said. On the 28th May last year I brought in a Bill to increase the salaries of judges and district justices. I was asked by Deputy McGilligan at the time to give the actual amounts of the increases I proposed. I gave the amounts and the Minister—or Deputy McGilligan as he then was—said:

"May I come to the aid of Fianna Fáil Deputies, who feel they may have to remember 1932—the good old propaganda of that period—by pointing out that the figures that have just been given to us are totally fallacious? What we are doing in the case of the Chief Justice is this. We are pretending, in relation to a man who was appointed at £4,000 a year, to give him £4,600. In view of the present cost of living we are actually giving him £2,300."

That was what the present Minister for Finance said then. But he now tells us that the people have had substantial increases. Apparently the £ which was worth 10/- last year is now worth £1.

Indeed it is not. Deputy Kissane said it is only worth 8/-.

Mr. Boland

It is what the Minister says now that counts.

The Deputy gave the judges £12 a week and the old age pensioners 2/6.

Mr. Boland

That is another matter. This is a specific matter. The Minister last year divided the judges salaries by two.

He did not say that any man was not worth more than £1,000 a year.

Mr. Boland

Further down in the same speech he said: "This is all part of the nonsense we have had to deal with in respect of every Vote." I take it the nonsense came from all sides of the House. "Civil servants, people in any way getting moneys from Government, from relief schemes or in any form are being deluded. They are handed something which seems to represent an increase, but which in reality does not." So much for the judges.

We come then to the Civic Guards. I brought in a measure dealing with increases to the Civic Guards last year. The Minister asked what the total increase would represent and I told him that it was £350,000, a sum I considered a very reasonable amount. The Minister adopted the same attitude there. He said:—

"The Minister told me yesterday that the old-time salary for them was £2,400,000 and he is now going to give them an increase of £350,000. Surely he might recognise the force of what we have been arguing about in other Departments? His colleagues must have told him about it. Will he appreciate that the purchasing power of the £ is now 10/-?"

It is not 10/- now. They have got substantial increases.

"The mass of the people under the heading of Civic Guards who used to draw from the Minister £2,400,000 in purchasing capacity, will appreciate that in the last couple of years it has been worth only £1,200,000."

He has reduced that £2,400,000 to something less than £1,200,000. He asked me then:—

"How does the Minister justify that, since no one ever regarded their wage as being too extravagant a wage long ago."

Finally, he concludes by saying:—

"I have no objection to giving these people £300,000. I am sorry it is not double or quadruple that amount. If it were quadrupled it would be merely putting those people back into the position they occupied in 1938. It would not be too much to think about putting them there."

That was the Minister's attitude then. He comes in here now and he does not even blush when he states specifically that they have got substantial increases. Yet at that time he said that the Guards should have got four times the amount.

The sum you were prepared to vote would not give them four times their salaries.

Mr. Boland

No, but here was a time when the Minister, as a Deputy, said if the salary was quadrupled it would be only sufficient. That was what he advocated. He said at one time that their salaries should be increased at least four times. That is what I am getting at. The other day the Minister told us that they had got a substantial increase.

Did the Deputy not consider it substantial?

Mr. Boland

The Minister at one time was very anxious that we should build new jails. He painted a horrifying picture of our prisons. He wanted a toilet and running water in every cell. There are some of us here who have an idea of what the jails are like and I think everyone will admit that if the Minister's idea about improving the jails were to be carried out, it would amount to building new jails altogether.

I did not say that.

Mr. Boland

You wanted running water in every cell; you complained about the slop-pails and painted a horrifying picture of the conditions in the jails. What you suggested amounted to this, that new jails should be built. Well, now is the time to build them. The Minister has the money but, instead of building new jails, he is not prepared even to build a house for a Civic Guard. Last year he told us that there should be new houses erected for the Guards. The Minister's colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, persecuted me about Borstal institutions. I had to ask him did he think I could get the money out of my hat. I could not erect those buildings during the emergency. Now the Government will not build anything at all and that accounts for the £8,000,000 saved. What sort of economy is that? This comes from the chief inflationist of the Opposition Party during the years when we were the Government.

I am sorry Deputy Flanagan is not able to be here. I believe he is not well and I hope his illness is not serious. He must be very disappointed in the Minister for Finance, because at one time he looked upon him as the person who would lead a financial revolution in this country. The Minister, in his opinion, was none of your dyed-in-the-wool conservatives in matters of finance. He regarded the Minister for Finance as the person who would do things that ought to be done. The poor fellow is sick now and I wonder how much his disappointment in the Minister has to do with his illness. I hope he will be all right, anyway.

He helped to put you over there.

Mr. Boland

While I am here I will enjoy myself. I would always prefer to be in a position to attack rather than to have to defend. It is a devil of a job to have to defend yourself for 16 years. There is nothing like a little attack. As regards the value of sterling, the Minister, when he was in Opposition, made his attitude quite clear. He said we were selling our good cattle and agricultural produce for what was almost waste paper. He said we could buy nothing for it. Now he tells us we should conserve this waste paper. Is he going in for the waste paper business? I have visited the quays and I have seen many things coming in, in return for that waste paper. Now, apparently, the Minister realises there is something in the waste paper. He is an intelligent man and he must know the real situation. If that is the case, then at one time he was trying to humbug the people, trying to deceive innocent people like Deputy Flanagan and our not so innocent Deputy Larkin, who regarded the Minister as the right man for that job and were prepared to back him up. In the course of time he will find that Deputy McGilligan and most of his Party have not changed since 1932.

Innocence is not the Deputy's sin.

Mr. Boland

It is not an offensive word, anyway. Deputy Esmonde is an innocent man and a very decent man. He told us the cost of living has gone down and I think he believes that. He said it has gone down because the price of beer and tobacco and entertainments has gone down. But he forgets meat; it has gone up. Then, again, as Deputy Larkin said, oatmeal and margarine have gone up in price.

I suppose the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs does not bother very much about these things; perhaps other things bother him more. I am surprised at him, because he should know better. He probably belongs to the class of the community to which Deputy Larkin referred. He represents the ordinary workers and farmers and he should realise that bread and margarine are vital in the lives of average persons. Although tobacco and beer are desirable, they still are semi-luxuries. If the emergency Budget may be regarded as the cause of our downfall and being thrown over here, I am glad we introduced it, because it was the proper thing to do to try to reduce the cost of food at the expense of those other things, luxuries.

Deputy Esmonde, in his innocence, congratulated the Minister on reducing taxation without endangering the safety of the State. I hope you have not endangered the safety of the State. If we are lucky, and if there is no war, the Deputy will be justified. The only person who is sure there will be no war is the Minister for Agriculture. He knows everything and he knows that, yet the Chief of Staff of the American Army did not appear to know it when he asked for £3,600,000,000 to arm his forces this year.

Is the saving on the Army a wise one? I hope the Government are right. We all hope it will not be necessary to go through anything like what we had to go through since 1939. If we had normal times no one would want a big Army, but in disturbed times like these we do need one. It is nothing short of criminal for the Government to reduce the expenditure on the Army by £750,000. Even the Guards have not been left alone. All we were doing with the Guards was making up for wastage. Two hundred men on the average were retiring each year. I do not know whether this will be a permanent policy, but the Government will have to settle this matter soon. Recruiting has been stopped. The age limit is getting higher and there will be more than 200 men retiring very soon.

I know that in some parts of the country some people think that we are over-policed and that a case has been put up here for a reduction in the Guards. I have examined the matter very thoroughly and found that that would not be advisable at all. The non-police duties which are performed by the Guards down the country are very essential, and if they were performed by civil servants it would cost far more money. On account of what was said on my Estimate, when I was Minister, I would strongly advise the Government that that would be very dangerous and that far more civil servants would be needed to do the work which the Guards have done so far.

I hope that as far as the Guards are concerned the Government at least supplies wastage. The Government would be taking a very big risk in not maintaining the force.

Mr. Boland

Because there is not enough of them. Anyone who knows Dublin would say that it was underpoliced, and also the country as a whole. That is my experience. I am not playing politics now and I say that it would be a very dangerous thing to do.

You have not made much of an argument.

Mr. Boland

Have I not?

You are only giving your opinion.

Mr. Boland

My opinion is based on eight and a half years' experience as Minister.

You have given no reason for your opinion.

Mr. Boland

I am not in the position of being cross-examined by counsel. The Minister is not in court now.

I am merely asking the Deputy courteously for his reasons.

The Deputy is going back on his old tactics.

Mr. Boland

It would be a great harm if the Minister continues to stop recruiting for the Guards; and the Government should face up to the problem, not as people who were pledged to reduce expenditure at a time when they never thought that they would be in a position to do it, but as the people who are responsible for maintaining law and order.

I was very pleased indeed to hear Deputy Larkin making a plea for the £85,000 for mineral development. I did not think that there would be any use in appealing to the Labour Party but I was going to appeal to the Clann na Poblachta Party. I was going to say to them: "You have put a lot of your policy into abeyance. You have gained your major point—‘put themout'—and I am sure that that has given you satisfaction, but you could get more out of that Government if you wish." All their grandiose schemes of exploiting the natural resources of the country have, naturally, to be put into abeyance like the rest, but £85,000 would not be a terrible lot, and now that Deputy Larkin has spoken in the way he did they may be able to squeeze that out of the Minister.

The Deputy's appeal should weigh heavily with Clann na Poblachta.

Mr. Boland

If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to speak he will have plenty of time for it again, but I suppose my appeal will not. Another thing which I suppose will not have any effect is an appeal for the short-wave broadcasting station. I think that was an outrageous thing to do.

To build it?

That is right.

Mr. Boland

To discontinue it.

It was not in operation.

Mr. Boland

It was in course of construction and it is now going to be thrown out and sold for scrap.

Mr. Boland

The Fine Gael Party are completely in control now and anything which I may say will not be taken in good faith, and perhaps it is not, but at least the Clann na Poblachta Party could press for the construction of the short-wave broadcasting station. It is the one way of getting our voice across the world, and we will not be advertising sausages outside like we do at home. I do not like those things at all. The voice of Ireland would be heard and we could get the best possible type of people to broadcast. So the Government should consider restoring that item as it is of vital importance.

A small matter which I would like to raise concerns a tax imposed by the Emergency Budget. I put down a question about it but I should like to mention it here. The matter concerns a person who started to buy a farm in September last. On September 9th the solicitors who were acting on behalf of the purchaser wrote to the Land Commission asking them to supply particulars and, on three subsequent occasions, in addition to asking for particulars, they asked for consent to the sale. The Land Commission delayed giving their consent and particulars—I am not blaming the Land Commission for I know them to be very busy—but the result of all this was that practically three months passed and it was not until November 29th that the final consent and the particulars were furnished. The solicitors who were acting on this man's behalf pointed out that he had become liable to the extra stamp duty. When a Department of State delayed—I will not say deliberately—for three months, then the Revenue Commissioners should waive their claim. I have written three times about this matter.

Who imposed the stamp duty and who were in office when it occurred?

Mr. Boland

I would like to ask the Deputy if he intends to speak?

Mr. Collins

I will speak in due course.

Mr. Boland

We imposed the stamp duty and the whole thing happened during my term of office. If I were still Minister I would try, with my colleague, to get the Revenue Commissioners to remit this duty.

Was there no contract?

Deputy Cowan has asked a question.

Mr. Boland

Nothing could be done until the particulars were furnished.

Was there no agreement of sale?

Mr. Boland

I cannot answer the legal question. On the 9th September and on three subsequent occasions the solicitors for the purchaser asked to be given the particulars and the consent which was necessary for this holding and it was delayed.

Had an agreement been entered into in time the date of the consent or of the stamp would not have mattered.

Mr. Boland

The Deputy is a solicitor and can understand that. This man is stuck for his £50 which is vital to him as he is a poor man and in any other case of this kind I hope that consideration will be given to this matter.

During the past week-end I had the opportunity of consulting with my constituents as to what their views were on the recent Budget. Practically everyone admitted that the Budget as introduced by the Minister for Finance a few weeks ago has been hailed with delight in the part of the country which I have the honour to represent. Certainly the anxiety which I have seen displayed on the opposite benches has not been reflected throughout the country. The feeling down in my county was that the impositions would have been much heavier, perhaps I should say impositions such as they were used to under the régime of the previous Government. When one realises that a country of such a small size as this—2,500,000 to 3,000,000 people—had to face a Budget of practically 80,000,000 of money it certainly is a shock. I would like to congratulate the Minister for Finance for having achieved something wonderful in clipping £7,000,000 or £8,000,000 off that Budget without really hurting anybody. The Minister deserves to be complimented on the success of his first Budget. I am a new Deputy. I have listened very carefully to the speeches of Deputies on all sides of the House and I have not been very impressed by the standard of debate of those on the opposite side.

We made promises to the electorate when we went before them last February that if elected we would cut out the taxes introduced in the Supplementary Budget. That we did. We promised that if they gave us the opportunity of speaking for them in this House we would do our best to help the most necessitous amongst the community and by that I mean the poor and the blind. We have done that in this Budget. It is proposed to increase the old age pensions. That has been too long delayed. There are three classes in this country for whom very little has been done during the last 15 years, the poor, the blind and the aged. Another thing which redounds to the credit of the Minister is his intention to modify to a considerable degree the means test. The means test inflicted cruel hardships on the people.

In the town of Youghal, which is a fishing town, I know old men who have reached the age of 70 years and who could implement the very meagre allowance of 10/- or 12/6 a week by fishing. It would be a pastime more than anything else and it might bring them in an extra 5/- or 7/- a week. They were afraid to do that because the pensions officer would be down to investigate it. No blame attaches to the pensions officer for that. He had to do his duty and if he did not do it somebody else would do it for him. I am also aware that during the recent war years the sons and daughters of pensioners might send them 5/- or 10/- a week to keep them in some degree of comfort. Again the pensions officer would be down on them. I know of several cases and I can speak with authority because I have been for many years a member of a local old age pension committee.

I have heard many divergent views on the Budget expressed by Deputies on the opposite side, but I would like to tell them that there was never a greater air of freedom in the country than there is at the present time. The people feel that they have in office a Government that can be approached at any time to redress their grievances.

I do not see that anybody has been hurt by the Budget. The only serious tax imposed is the 5d. per gallon on petrol. As one who runs a car, I find myself in the same category as Deputy Sir John Esmonde, and I am very glad to be able to contribute 5d. per gallon on petrol to alleviate the distress that exists in many poor homes. I do not think anyone will mind that. I was very glad to see the Minister for Finance carrying out our election promises to lop and prune expenditure everywhere that it was possible. It must be apparent to everybody in this House that for many years past this country has been living beyond its means. There is no doubt about that. Everywhere one goes one sees people of slender means trying to emulate people of greater means.

The time has come when we must come down from the sphere of squandermania and expensive living to the land of realities. That is where we are. Ultimately, the plain people, the ordinary workingman, the shopkeeper, the farmer and his worker have to pay for everything. The standard of living of the ordinary people of the country cannot be judged by the standard we see around us in Dublin every day. We are a small country and we certainly cannot afford some of the schemes which would have been put into operation if the previous Government had remained in office. I was very glad to hear of the discontinuance of the transatlantic service. We read in the papers that large air companies, with years and years of experience, have been working at a loss. We do not want that to happen here because we have enough financial burdens to carry at the present time.

Income-tax remains at the Supplementary Budget figure of 7/-. Business people, of whom I am one, visualised, before the Budget was introduced, a possibility that the Minister might find it necessary to increase income-tax by 1/-. Personally, I was very glad that he did not do so, and I speak for many people. I think the tax is quite high enough at 7/- in the £.

I was glad indeed that the Minister acceded to the request of the publicans in removing the duties on wines. If there is any section of the community that has been put on the spot more often than anybody else it is the publicans. They have always been the target when extra money was required for some purpose or other. I certainly am glad that the Minister removed that duty. Deputies on the opposite side—I think Deputy Allen was mentioned by Deputy John Esmonde; they come from the same constituency— stated it was a sell-out to the publicans. There was no sell-out to the publicans and I think they are the one body of people that deserve to get a break and they certainly have got a break from the Minister for Finance.

The Budget has been a very, very popular Budget throughout the country and I am sure it will redound to the credit of all the Parties responsible for it. On the day of the introduction of the Budget, Deputy Lemass blazed into a crescendo of fury in regard to the Budget. One would have imagined that the country was tottering financially, he waxed so eloquent about it. What strikes me about Deputy Lemass in particular is that any suggestion for the improvement of the country which emanates from the Government Benches is deprecated. One would imagine that we had no authority to speak for the people outside. Of course I realise that it is rather hard for a gentleman who has occupied a Ministerial position for 16 years to divest himself in his Ministerial garb when the people hand him notice to quit. That is what happened in this case. The previous Government were so long in power that they had acquired a proprietary right to do what they liked with the people, but I have had a fairly long experience of public life and I realise that ultimately the people are the masters.

What I like about this Government, which is a strictly national Government in every sense of the word, an inter-Party Government, is that there are members of that Government who can speak for every section of the community and nobody is afraid to approach them. That is the feeling of the plain people of the country. This Government is attracting people to it day by day and the influence of this Government is becoming stronger and stronger. If we had an election again within the next 12 or 18 months I feel certain that the Party on the opposite side would come back with only about ten members.

Will you try it next month?

You have had one already. Of course, you may want another.

Vote against the Government and you will see. The weather is fine now.

Unfortunately, we cannot afford such trips as Deputy O'Rourke can afford. I notice he is the chief interrupter on the opposite benches. As this is my first time to speak in this House I would like to be able to do so without interruption, not that I fear any remarks from the Deputy, whom I know only by repute, or from anybody else. I am very well able to take care of myself in that matter. I do say that this Government is attracting people, even people who voted Fianna Fáil the last time.

Wait and see.

That may be unpalatable to you, Deputy O'Rourke, but it certainly has a very nice flavour in our mouths. Anything else?

Try an election on this popular Budget and you will find out.

We have given the people a far better Budget than you and your colleagues would give them.

The Deputy should address the Chair. Addressing Deputies across the House is not in order.

It is not fair that a Deputy making his maiden speech should be interrupted by a gentleman who never speaks.

Interruptions are disorderly whether the speech is a maiden speech or not.

I appreciate that. I am sure Deputy O'Rourke does not mean to be derogatory or anything like that.

You issued a challenge and I accepted it on behalf of Fianna Fáil.

You will get plenty of time and we will see whether the people of Ireland want the Budget or not. In conclusion, I compliment the Minister for Finance. He has given the country a Budget with which everybody is satisfied and I would urge him to keep on doing the good work he has been doing and, without fear, the country will stand behind him and his Party and his Government.

If this were a Budget with which everybody was satisfied I should not address my remarks to it. I think this is the beginning of a policy of retrogression which, if not halted now, will in a very short time be the end of the Coalition Government.

We do not think so.

I did not interrupt speakers and I would like not to be interrupted.

As far as the Chair can help it.

If this Budget is, as I maintain it is, the beginning of a policy of retrogression, it is a Budget that the people of this country did not vote for. The people of this country did not give a mandate to effect the retrenchment which the Government are effecting, and which, in my opinion, is false economy under whatever head you apply the criterion.

The Army has been discussed here at length on the Army Estimate. I have held—and it was my first contribution in this House ten years ago, on the Army Estimate—and I now hold that we should spend to the limit on our Army. If we are not to have an Army in keeping with the dignity of this nation as a free nation, the sacrifices down the years were all in vain. We should have an Army here, not only to protect our shores but to deal with whatever emergency might arise within our shores. There is a red menace moving across Europe. There is part of that menace already here. Leading and eminent churchmen have spoken publicly on this question. We should have here an Army competent to deal with a Communist menace, if and when it comes here and to prevent a possible coup d'état.

Is the Deputy suggesting that we have not?

I do not interrupt speakers and I am not going to be heckled by you. Since you came into this House, you have behaved disgracefully, in my opinion. No matter what speaker gets up, it is simply a barrage from you.

Would the Deputy please address me?

I will. Deputy Boland has dealt with the police force. He says it was wrong to stop recruitment to the Gardaí, as there is a natural outgoing of 200 men in each year. I speak as a member of a public authority for close on 20 years and as one in constant conference with the Garda traffic authorities and other committees of the Dublin Corporation. The reports that come in to us and to other bodies regarding the outlying districts of this city show that the city is underpoliced. Also, the Garda Representative Body have complained to the Minister—I know that—that their duties are too onerous, owing to the system of beat duty which is employed at present, because the Gardaí are not up to establishment now.

Was not that beat duty introduced by yourselves?

The Deputy must be allowed to speak.

I think that retrenchment is false economy. Deputy O'Gorman—I am sorry he has gone out— referred to this Budget as a good one. We have heard arguments on the turf policy, but apart from that the Minister told us to-day that in the rural areas schemes are being put into effect to relieve the unemployment. I want to know from the Minister what schemes are going to be put into effect in the City of Dublin, what alternative employment will be given to those already disemployed through the abandonment of the hand-won turf scheme. Quite a number have been let go by Fuel Importers, Ltd., and other contractors, not to mention the ancillary services. What alternative employment will be made available for those people in Dublin?

Again, the Government have unloaded their responsibility for the free food voucher scheme. I am not one who would argue for food vouchers at any time, but the food voucher was introduced in an emergency and paid for in full by the Government, so that the recipients could be guaranteed certain essential commodities which they might not ordinarily have received if they were paid merely in coin. The ratepayers of Dublin and throughout the country do not seem to be fully aware that the Government have ceased to take responsibility for that scheme. They notified the public assistance authorities—on the 24th March, I think—that that scheme was to be discontinued as from the 27th March. They gave only four days' notice. The allowances which these people were receiving in kind will now have to be paid in coin by the public assistance authorities—by the ratepayers of Dublin. I estimate that the ratepayers of Dublin for the coming year will have to pay between £40,000 and £50,000. The Government have simply handed that sum over from central taxation to local taxation.

Reference has been made to the short-wave station. I heard the Minister say that the whole thing was nonsense. I do not think that the short-wave station for which we have been looking for a great many years is nonsense. I think it is a very essential service. I know, and there are men in this House who know, that in 1916, for instance, the paper wall operated against this country. America might not have had knowledge of the Rising in this country for a great many weeks if some of our men in O'Connell Street had not deliberately sent out a message from a set in the wireless school on the normal ship wave-length proclaiming the Irish Republic. That message, as we all know now, was picked up at sea and relayed to America. We could never have got through the British censorship at that time any more than we could get through it during the recent emergency. We needed a short-wave station then and we need one now. I want to say quite openly that if I had control of the policy of that short-wave station I would send out every night of the week a short message on the crime of the partition of this country. However, there are other aspects of the use of the station to be considered besides that of propaganda. Is it nothing to us that the people of America are our very good friends and that the American continent was mainly freed in the first instance from British domination by Irishmen? Is it nothing to us that that kinship should not be continued? I hold that we should have as many ties as possible with the American continent. Despite the Minister's smile, I consider that we have something to send over the air. We have good musicians, good singers and good writers in this country. We have people here who can contribute to a good programme— and America wants to hear good Irish artists. Apart from that, there is the technical aspect. I heard the Minister say that it would have been a futility. I do not know how it could be a futility. Schenectady can be heard quite plainly in Dublin every night. I hear it, and anybody can get the station quite clearly. It is 100 kilowatts, and our station was to have been that also.

Another point is that £176,000 is taken from this project. I wonder if the Minister will get away with it. Actually my information is that the station is ready for aerial tests and, if it is, the Marconi Company will have to be paid. Why should we throw that expenditure to the winds without making use of the station—but, of course, if one cannot argue from a cultural standpoint or a propaganda viewpoint with people then a short-wave station is not necessary. We are back to the old state of this country—it is not necessary for it to be tree; it is merely necessary for it to be the appendix of another country and, with regard to Britain, I might say the "Cabbage Garden" of that country.

The air services are not going to get any chance. We are going to abandon the transatlantic air service without even trying, I understand, to give it a fair trial. I am reliably informed that there were full bookings from May to October. Was any business ever started with the anticipation of making a complete profit in the first year? Surely this is another national investment.

Mr. Collins

Another national debt.

Apart from all that it brings Americans here. Americans bring more dollars and the more dollars we get the more we can buy in America. I do not believe that, if a general election were to come tomorrow, the people would return the Parties who now form the Coalition Government, under any of those heads.

To my mind the retrenchment on the Athletics Vote is miserable. I have been associated with the athletic movement since I was at school and I know the outlook in that regard. The Deputy who spoke before me says that everybody is satisfied. I can tell the Minister that I have been in touch with clubs and individual athletes and that all are dissatisfied about this parsimonious £25,000 in a Vote of £70,000,000. The Minister for Health is pursuing a vigorous campaign in connection with health services. Quite recently, at a tennis club or somewhere else, he said that the encouragement of athletics and of all sports and pastimes is essential and that he would do everything in his power to further that encouragement.

Was it proposed to spend this money on athletics?

It was proposed to spend £25,000 on putting down cinder tracks so that Irish athletes could run on tracks similar to those on which they have to run when they go abroad to represent this country in international competitions. We have had great athletes in this country. I can think of Seán Lavin and Norman McEachern. I do not know of any Englishman or of anyone else who could beat Seán Lavin on a grass track in Croke Park or in this country but he could not make the same time and beat athletes across the way on cinder tracks. There is all the difference in the world between a cinder track and a grass track.

Mr. Collins

It took 16 years to give the grant.

We take pride out of Irish achievements such as Irish horses that win the Grand National and our Irish athletes. We should, therefore, foster sport in every way possible and provide every incentive so that our young people will cultivate athletics, instead of withdrawing this money so that some people will be able to drink more porter.

Mr. Collins

Why did you not keep Tisdall here as an instructor?

I do not know why school building is not to go ahead. The Minister said that a certain amount of money will be spent but he did not specify the amount. I am a member of the Dublin Vocational Education Committee. We had planned a series of regional and technical schools and the previous Minister was urging us to go ahead with those projects. I am going to deal with only three of them —Crumlin, Whitehall and Killester. Three day technical schools are to be erected in the most populous districts of the new working-class areas on the outskirts of the City of Dublin. We proposed to provide schools there which would house 360 pupils. Last Thursday the members of the Vocational Education Committee received a letter from the Minister for Education instructing us not to go ahead with the schools for 360 pupils but to go ahead with schools for 120 pupils in each case.

The previous Minister made that suggestion also.

The previous Minister did not make that suggestion.

I remember his saying it.

I am clear that he did not. We are at one on that question and we are going to fight it. In Crumlin there are 6,100 Catholic boys and girls attending school and 420 of them leave every year. We are to put up a school to accommodate 120 pupils. I intend to fight for having attached to these technical schools a school of music. We have an excellent school of music in the city—the Municipal School of Music. We have 1,200 pupils there. We have not sufficient accommodation for these 1,200 pupils and, if we were to take all the applicants, there would be many hundreds more there. I intend to see that with every vocational and technical school we shall have a school of music—at least a few rooms to start with where the violin and the piano can be taught. One of the retrenchments that I most vigorously object to is that these three schools in the most populous areas of Dublin, namely, Crumlin, Killester and Whitehall, are to be sacrificed in order that people can drink more porter and smoke more cigarettes.

The Minister is of opinion that his intention to repeal Section 22 of the Finance Act of 1931 will not militate against the employment of variety artistes. I tell the Minister definitely that variety artistes will be put out of employment if he repeals that section. That section provided that where there was more than 50 per cent. of a personal show together with a cinema show the theatre was exempt from duty. If that section is repealed I say that there will be thrown on the unemployment market between 300 and 500 variety artistes. I have good authority for that statement.

Deputies will have read in the last few days the interview with Mr. Frank O'Donovan in the daily papers on that matter. No man is more competent to speak on behalf of variety artistes than Mr. O'Donovan. He is known throughout the length and breadth of the country. He has brought "fit-up" companies into every corner of the country. He says that if that section is repealed there will be up to 500 artistes unemployed. I appeal to the Minister not to repeal that section, because it was inserted to give Irish artistes a chance of replacing bluenose Cockney comedians on the Irish stage.

During the emergency a great number of people gave up their normal employment to take up full-time work on the variety stage when English artistes were not available. The theatre managers welcomed these artistes. I estimate that at least 400 took up stage work at that time and have since been giving their full time to the stage. If this Section 22 is repealed, these people will be thrown out of employment. In 1937 and 1938, Irish turns on the stage here only represented 1½ per cent. of the programme; all the rest came from outside. Now we have a chance of building an Irish variety theatre. Many musicians have been employed in these cine-variety theatres. I can give the Minister a list of the theatres down the country which he proposes to victimise. I ask him not to repeal this Section 22 because, if he does, we will revert to the old-time practice of the Irish stage being filled by artistes from across the water.

The Minister also said that the withdrawal of the food subsidies to restaurants would not cause any great hardship to anybody. That may be all right so far as certain parts of this city are concerned. I want to speak, however, for the constituency I represent, for the great number of small eatinghouses and restaurants that are to be found around the Coombe, New Street and Kevin Street. I can assure the Minister that, if these subsidies are withdrawn, it will mean an extra charge of some pence per meal on unfortunate poor people who live in these lodging-houses or eat in these eating-houses, and that will mean a considerable amount of money to them.

Every Irish economist whom I have read spoke about mineral exploration here. There were always, of course, doubting Thomases, people who said that there was nothing in this country. But people greater than these said that they would try. It was proposed this year to spend an additional £85,000 on mineral exploration. In my opinion, that was a policy that was agreed to at the time. Certainly it was agreed to during the election by the Labour Party and the Clann na Poblachta Party. How can they throw that policy overboard now? Why cannot this policy be gone on with? It is only a miserable saving. If the exploration were gone ahead with, great benefit might accrue to the country. Surely we can afford to spend that amount and see what benefits will accrue from the development of gypsum and other deposits. Considerable benefits did accrue from that policy in the past.

I should like to ask the Minister what is to be the increase in old age pensions, who is going to get it and when. I see here a figure of £600,000. At present a sum of £4,400,000 is being paid in old age pensions. What does £600,000 represent in relation to £4,400,000? Who is going to get it and what is the sum? What is the means test going to be? I should like to remind Deputies opposite that they did not campaign for a modification in the means test.

That is not true.

They promised the electors that they would abolish the means test.

The records of the House are there. Motions were put down here and in the Dublin Corporation and in local councils throughout the country calling for abolition of the means test and, in some cases, calling for old age pensions of 25/- per week. This cannot be termed a successful Budget, because any Budget that increases the cost of living cannot be called a successful one. This Budget will definitely increase the cost of living. It will increase the cost of oatmeal, of margarine and of jam, but I suppose it will be all right. A mother will have to tell her child in the morning: "I am sorry I have not enough porridge for you because your father must have more porter."

One of the prophecies made by the Leader of the Opposition after the change of Government was that this present Government would not survive its first Budget. I think that prophecy is not going to be fulfilled. If we had had a general election on the morning after the publication of the details of the Budget there is no doubt but that the Party now in opposition would be almost halved by the electorate. I think that is a measure by which we can judge whether this Budget has been acceptable or not to the country. I did not expect miracles from the present Minister for Finance in a period of a little over two months, and nobody should have expected miracles from him. The Minister, with figures prepared by the last Government, was faced with an estimated deficit of £8,731,000. Everybody wondered "how is the Minister for Finance to bridge that gap, how is he to get over it, and how is he to solve the huge problems that confront him?" The general view everywhere is, that the Minister for Finance, in the presentation of his first Budget, has had a substantial measure of success.

It was necessary, after 16 years of Fianna Fáil Budgets, that we should have a Minister in charge of finance who would be able to present his own Budget to this House. That is what we have had in the present Budget. The Minister understands every item in it and can defend every item in it. That is a big change from what we have been used to when Ministers for Finance were simply the mouth-pieces of the Department reading statements prepared for them, carrying through a Budget not by an intelligent defence, but by a strong party of "yes-men" who simply walked into the Lobby and put it through. That is the difference between this Budget and previous Budgets.

You were not long learning the art.

I did not hear what the Deputy said.

I say you were not long learning the art of becoming a yes-man.

I am not a yes-man yet and I doubt very much if I could ever learn that art. I think it is a humiliating position for any person to be put in the position of having simply to walk around into the Lobby in response to the crack of the whip.

You did it yourself all right in a short time.

I could not do it, and if I support the Budget and vote for it it is because I believe that in the circumstances it is a good Budget and should be voted for. That is a change in conditions that some people find a difficulty in understanding. I think the Minister for Finance deserves credit for the manner in which he approached these enormous problems and for the manner in which he has solved them.

Now, having said that, I want to make it perfectly clear, as Deputy Lehane made it perfectly clear, that we of Clann na Poblachta are only a small Party of ten, that we are part of this inter-Party Government, and that the Budget that was introduced by the Minister is the best that could have been brought in in the circumstances and deserves our support. But undoubtedly it is a very different Budget from the Budget that this Party would put before the House if we were entrusted with the responsibility of Government.

Deputy Lemass said, and said very correctly, that a Budget should be an indication of the economic and social policy of the Government. Now this Budget is not an indication of the economic and social policy of the Government. It cannot be. It was absolutely necessary to put an end to wasteful expenditure and to get on to some firm bedrock of common sense. That is all that the Minister for Finance has achieved in these Budgetary proposals. I would like to have seen some severe and drastic steps taken by the Minister in regard to excessive salaries, as well as some measure of control of excessive salaries and some reduction in grossly excessive salaries. We had an indication of the social policy of Fianna Fáil in some measures introduced by them in recent years. Deputy Boland mentioned one of them to-day—his efforts to increase salaries. He increased them and put such a measure through this House because of the increase in the cost of living. With the support of the Fianna Fáil Party he increased salaries of £80 a week by £12 a week to meet the increased cost of living, while his measure of justice, or the Government's measure of justice, for the old age pensioner was 2/6 a week, also to meet the increased cost of living.

As a result of 16 years of Fianna Fáil Government we have salaries in this country that are grossly excessive. I hope that early steps will be taken to ensure that those grossly excessive salaries are reduced. In that way substantial sums will be made available for other vital purposes.

I should like to have seen some steps taken with regard to excess profits. The Minister should have taken complete charge of such excess profits in the interests of the public as a whole. I can assure the House that so far as this Party is concerned and so far as I am personally concerned, every effort will be made to ensure that excess profits will not be permitted to continue.

There is a further field into which the Minister might have ventured with advantage to the community. That is the field of ground rents. I have endeavoured by Parliamentary Question to get some information as to the amount of money received in incometax on ground rents and, for some mysterious reason, that information is not available and has never been available in the Department of Finance. Ground rents are being created in the City of Dublin year after year. They are a scandalous impost on the community and certainly if I were Minister for Finance I would have no hesitation in taxing these ground rents out of existence. I know of one instance of an individual who purchased a farm in the neighbourhood of the city for £4,000. He was fortunate in that there were roads completely surrounding it. A sewerage system was brought there by the community, the gas company brought a gas supply to it, the corporation brought water to it and the Electricity Supply Board brought electric light and power to it. Without any effort whatever that farm was allocated by the owner to builders and, now under our present ground rent system, the owner is in receipt of more than £4,000 per annum ground rents out of that farm. I say the development of the ground rent system is iniquitous and pernicious and, so far as I can influence policy in this House, I shall endeavour to put an end to that system in the interests of the community.

There is another field in which the Government can with advantage venture, namely, the field of waste in public Departments. Everyone will agree that there has been, over many years, gross waste of public moneys. Heavy lorries were used by State Departments to convey parcels that could be carried by hand or on bicycles. That is only one indication and everyone in this House can point to similar examples. By a tightening up in every Government Department enormous savings could be made. These savings should be made available for the building of schools or for these mineral explorations of which we heard to-day. Such development work is good for the community and should be continued. I think the contemplated saving of £85,000 under that particular sub-head should not be made this year. I can imagine the concern of the Minister that that money should be spent properly and to the best advantage. I take it that the Minister has done nothing more than to stay the expenditure until such time as he is assured that it will be spent properly and that it will not be wasted as money was wasted on some of the schemes we had under the last Administration. We do not want to see another £40,000, £30,000, or whatever the sum was, wasted in the way in which the moneys expended on the Santry Court scheme were wasted. It is the duty of the Government and our duty, as representatives of the people, to ensure that every penny spent, whether for mineral exploration or otherwise, is properly spent in the interests of the community who have to foot the bill.

I should like to have seen some steps taken to guarantee a more equitable distribution of the wealth of this country. Such steps are necessary and will have to be taken, and I agree entirely with what Deputy Larkin so well said here this evening. Unless our old age pensioners, widows and orphans, sick, incapacitated and infirm are paid adequate allowances to enable them to buy the essentials of life, food and clothing, they are no use as a market for our farmers or industrialists. With increased allowances, sufficient to enable these sections of the community to live in reasonable comfort, there would be a substantial market for our farmers and producers of all kinds. It is in the interests of the community that we should increase the allowances which the weaker sections of the people receive from the Exchequer. The same remarks apply to wages. A living wage must and should be guaranteed to every worker. When such a wage is guaranteed we shall have reasonable prosperity in the country. I hope that when the new Government has an opportunity of considering all these matters in the way they should be considered, with the pressure that will undoubtedly be directed by the Parties that form this inter-Party Government, steps will be taken, as I am satisfied that steps will be taken by the Government, to ensure that we will have a living wage guaranteed to every worker and that we will be able to guarantee a decent allowance to every old age pensioner, every widow and orphan and every person who, because of disease or infirmity, is unable to exist on the miserable allowances they receive at the moment. This Budget does provide a measure of justice for our old age pensioners. It does provide a measure of justice for the widows and the orphans, and to that extent the Budget is undoubtedly acceptable to the Party to which I belong. I am glad to see the old age pension going up to 17/6 per week. If we had had no change of Government, that old age pension would not have gone up.

Are you sure?

I am certain. I recollect that not so very long ago, when a Minister of the previous Government was asked about an increase in old age pensions, he said that, if he had the money to spend, he would spend it on something else rather than on old age pensions. That answer was given by a Minister of the previous Government.

Will you quote him?

If I had got notice, I would be able to quote him, but I am speaking from recollection.

Will the Deputy deny that the Minister for Finance said it?

Get your quotation.

I do not need it. I was here when he said it.

He was not the Minister for Social Services.

I cannot quote him and I am speaking from recollection, but it was one of those expressions which burned into my brain and which reinforced my determination to see the Fianna Fáil Party transferred from this side of the House to the other. I am glad, as I say, to see this measure of justice for the old age pensioners and glad to see this measure of justice for the widows and orphans, but that is not sufficient. We must go further, and, as I have said, must guarantee to them a living allowance.

Deputy McCann said that in the general election campaign we declared that we would abolish the means test. Certainly we did. I have been saying it for ten years on public platforms. I want to see an end of that means test. As far as we can get in the present set-up is a modification, and for that I am delighted, and so are many people who will be recipients of old age pensions and allowances to which this means test applies. A definite guarantee has been given by the Minister for Social Services and the Minister for Finance that the means test will be substantially modified. That will mean a lot to many old age pensioners and widows and orphans, and I am quite sure that Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party, as well as Deputies on this side, will be glad to see that means test modified and to see increased allowances being paid out to these unfortunate people in their constituencies.

I again congratulate the Minister for Finance on doing a very difficult task and doing it well, but I want to assure the Deputies opposite and my own constituents that, so far as we in Clann na Poblachta are concerned, we shall continue, in the inter-Party Government and in public, to press for the realisation of the aims and objectives which we put before the people in the general election campaign. We have progressed some distance on the way. For that we are thankful, and for that I congratulate the Minister.

I also join with Deputy Cowan in congratulating the Minister, but I qualify it by saying: "on the task he has set out to do." I do not think there is any use in describing this Budget as either good or bad. Everybody will see it from his own point of view. I should like to hear the views of the people who paid particular attention, for instance, to the Clann na Poblachta speakers and the National Labour Party speakers. These two were very vocal in my constituency and I should like to meet somebody who had been in the position of Rip Van Winkle since the last day of the campaign and who awoke on the evening on which the Budget was introduced. I should like to ask him for his opinion of the Budget with the cries of "Save the Gaeltacht,""Full employment,""Reduced cost of living,""Reduced cost of Government" and all the rest of the election gamut ringing in his ears. I take it that he would possibly have a different reaction to the Budget from the reaction which Deputies of the smaller Parties who have already spoken have indicated.

I was particularly interested in the speech of Deputy Larkin, a speech which seemed to me to be entirely illogical and inconsistent. He thought the Minister should take the most drastic steps possible to avoid inflation and a reduction of the purchasing power of the workers' wages, and, at the same time, he lacerated Fianna Fáil for having done that very effectively during the war by means of the standstill Orders. If there is any way in which it can be done other than by means of standstill Orders, he did not tell us what it is. He asked us several times what our alternative to the Budget was. The fact is that this Budget is the alternative to our proposals. They are there in black and white, introduced by Fianna Fáil, and we still stand over them. This is the alternative, and, in the opinion not alone of Fianna Fáil but of a great many of the people who voted against Fianna Fáil in the election, this is a very bad swop.

Take the question of turf. I think it is possible to make as good a case for a subsidy for the turf industry as can be made for a subsidy for sugar. I know that one of the Ministers in the Government will not subsidise any of these things—the Minister for Agriculture—and possibly he is the most consistent of all the Government spokesmen. A man in my constituency quite recently told me that he had voted against us. He voted, I think, for Clann na Poblachta, and he told me quite frankly that he was fond of a drink and resented very much that we had increased the price of liqour. He said: "Even though the price was increased, I was able to get a fair modicum of liquor, but I did not like paying the extra amount, no matter what the purpose of it was. Now I can get it for 10d., but I have lost my employment and have not got the 10d. to buy it." I should like to hear that man's reaction to the Budget expressed to the people for whom he voted.

Turf, it seems to me, is one of the things which has suffered mainly because we had a period of very bad weather from the middle of 1946 to the end of 1947. I think it would have been very good economy and a very wise policy of national insurance to continue the turf scheme, particularly in view of the very favourable weather we have had this year. This has been an ideal turf year and we have had this year more ideal weather for turf production than we have had for a long time. It would have been possible for us this year to have stacked a large quantity of first-class turf all over the country. I have no particular objection to allowing coal in for those industries for which coal is essential. In view of the general world situation I think any wise Government would bring in coal and store it while at the same time using our own turf to the fullest possible extent for our own needs. In that way we would have provided ourselves with two safeguards. We would keep our turf industry alive, thereby giving much needed first-class employment in our distressed areas and we would have stored coal against the possibility of another war.

I know that the idea of war has been pooh-poohed to a large extent. I have no information on which to form an opinion myself. I am merely guided by the opinions of those more competent than I am to judge world events. I think the last important pronouncement made on the critical situation with which we are faced was that made by Cardinal Spellman in Australia when he said that "the sands of peace are running out". If that is not a danger signal then I do not know what is. I think there is an obligation on the Government to take these signs and portents into consideration in order to help them to arrive at wise decisions on matters of internal national economy.

The continuance of our turf industry would also help us to save our drawings on our foreign investments at the present time. Our accumulation of foreign assets and of sterling was derided by the present Government when they were in Opposition. We were told that we were piling up useless credits for which we could get no goods. We were told that ad nauseam. But there is a “new look” on that particular matter and we are told now that in the last nine or ten months Fianna Fáil had been dissipating those very useful assets. We cannot have it both ways. If they are as highly valuable as we are now told then the turf industry should be availed of in order to economise on our purchases of coal. In that way, too, we would help to implement the Marshall plan by utilising our own resources to the full. America may not take very serious notice of our economy in regard to fuel but it will certainly take notice of our economy in regard to agriculture. The Minister for Agriculture has described the growing of wheat as “all cod”. I take it since the Minister is a member of the Government that must be the policy of the Government. Wheat is one of the commodities which we must import from the United States. The distribution of their surplus wheat is a matter of some difficulty for the American Government. If a country which did not suffer any devastation through actual war adopts that attitude in relation to the development of its own resources surely that is a matter of which serious notice will be taken, because in the last analysis it means that we are not doing our duty in respect of world recovery.

Reference was made here to the failure of the Government to reimpose the excess profits tax. When we voted against the Budget we were told that that vote was a vote against an increase to old age pensioners. I will return the compliment now. Those who voted for the Budget and who are now so critical of the abolition of the excess profits tax voted for its specific removal. I understand that this particular tax is regarded in all countries purely as an emergency tax. Its sole purpose is to check profiteering, racketeering and undue profits. If that is so I cannot understand these same people voting for the giving back of retail licences all up and down the country to those people who robbed the poorest sections of our community. I think that was a disgraceful action on the part of the Government coming so quickly after the change of Government. In my opinion it has caused a worse reaction among the supporters of the small Parties than any other single act of the Government.

Everybody reads this Budget from the point of view of the particular area he represents. Deputy Larkin sees it from the point of view of Dublin City. The Supplementary Budget was resented more in Dublin than in my constituency. Cinema seats do not worry a large proportion of my constituents. The increased cost of spirits did not worry a large proportion of my constituents. Even the increased cost of the democratic pint did not worry them. The one thing that did hurt my constituents very much was the abolition of the subsidy for hand-won turf. I admit that if we were to enjoy a long period of peace some reorganisation or rationalisation of the turf industry would have been necessary. To cut off three-quarters of the industry at one fell stroke was too big an economy entirely. It places an undue burden on the poorest sections of our community.

In County Galway there was an annual earning of £116,000 a year in wages to bog workers. I make no reference now to what subsidiary employees earn. These displaced workers are now offered a sum of £26,000 for one year. Of that sum £6,000 must be provided out of the rates. That is the exchange in County Galway—£26,000 for one year as against an annual earning of £116,000. If the people of my constituency do not enthuse about this Budget I am sure that fact alone will make the Deputies from the eastern parts of the country understand why.

It has entirely upset the economy of Connemara—the sudden closing down of this industry. It will have a very serious effect on the purchasing power of the people of Connemara in respect of flour. The previous Minister for Industry and Commerce knows very well, and the present Minister also knows, that the scheme of rationing flour is most unfair. I heard Deputy Lemass when he was Minister saying that bread rationing should be the last resort, because it cannot be done fairly in any country. Bread was not rationed here during the war until it was absolutely necessary. We asked many times to have a different scheme of rationing devised and eventually the then Minister went as far as he could to get extra flour and bread to groups that were organised and in respect of whom a scheme on a differential basis could be operated.

The point I wish to make in respect of this is that in the County Galway you have two types of country, the wheat-growing type and the non-wheat-growing type. Bread and flour being rationed generally over the whole population, it was obvious that in one part of the county there was bound to be a surplus. This was readily purchaseable in the other part of the county and that did make up in a very large measure for the deficiency in rationing, particularly in Connemara where bread is used at all meals. They have no substantial mid-day meal there of bacon and cabbage and potatoes, such as they have in places where pigs are produced. This extra flour—black market flour or any other objectionable name you like to call it —found its way there.

But the earnings from the turf were the means by which the people were able to buy it and, now that that is taken from them, they are hit very hard indeed. I am glad to learn that the Department of Industry and Commerce recognises the great evil that has been done and permission to emigrate is not now being denied to any class of workers—nobody is being refused. Much as we all dislike emigration, I think that in the circumstances that was a wise decision. They are going and they will be able to send something back from abroad, but that something must be very much less than the earnings they were able to make in their own localities, with the additional advantage of having the comfort of home life, living with their families.

These are a few reflections on the new look that arises in my area. I do not think there is anything in the Budget; anyone who takes an unbiased view of the benefits in the Budget can truthfully say that they are far outweighed by the disadvantages, particularly that big disadvantage in my area. I think Deputy Larkin was speaking with his tongue in his cheek when he made a comparison between this Government and the Fianna Fáil Government in respect of social and labour legislation generally. He must remember that the Conditions of Employment Act, the Shops Act and various other Acts were introduced during the Fianna Fáil régime. He must remember there was no unemployment assistance scheme and no widows' and orphans' pensions scheme and no children's allowances scheme before Fianna Fáil came in. As to the democratic rights of the workers, he must know that even during the emergency we did not prevent people with wages of £7, £8, £9 and even £11 a week going on strike and holding the community up to ransom.

How many workers would that mean?

What about the sugar cooks?

How many of those workers were in Connemara?

In Connemara, as a result of the Fianna Fáil turf industry, we gave them employment which enabled them to raise their standard of living very considerably.

You had them walking 12 miles to catch a train to emigrate, while you were in power.

The Deputy represents County Roscommon and he does not know what he is talking about.

Possibly he has a big interest in Galway, too.

The Deputy does not know the geography of West Galway and perhaps he will have the decency to leave the matter to those who understand it. As transport has been mentioned, I would like to say that during the Fianna Fáil term of office public transport—both passenger and freight —was brought into every village in Connemara. That service is recognised and it is valued and appreciated very much in Connemara. It obviated the necessity of maintaining a large number of horses. Horses are difficult to maintain in an area where you cannot grow corn and in which corn has to be imported. All these horses used to be maintained to serve the villages from the railway. The new system of transport was a definite advantage. People can now step into their bus passing through a village or along a country road and be left at the shop door. That was not formerly the case.

Is Clifden well served by bus?

The Deputy will have an opportunity of participating in the debate in an orderly manner if he so desires.

Like all good Governments Fianna Fáil legislated for the benefit of the majority and if there were hard exceptions that is inevitable in all legislation. I should like to conclude on this note: An fear go raibh an saol maith aige as an móin, bhí sé i ndon plúr a cheannach ar an margadh dubh agus bhí fuíollach airgid aige, ach ag an ám céanna bhí sé de dhí-chéille aige bhótáil in aghaidh Fianna Fáil. "Chuir sibh suas praghas an phionta" duirt sé liom "ach mar sin féin, bhí mé i ndon é a cheannach, ach anois cé go ndeacha sé síos go deich bpingne, níl an deich bpingne féin agam".

In spite of the fog of words with which it has been sought to obscure the Budget during this debate, this is a simple, straightforward Budget, with only two outstanding features: it relieves a long-suffering and very weak section of the community, old age pensioners, by giving them a small increase in their weekly allowance, and it imposes an additional burden upon the motorists, the users of motor-cars generally. Will anyone say that it is wrong or undesirable at this stage to give some assistance to the weaker and weakest section of the community? Will anyone say that an absolutely unbearable hardship was imposed on the motoring community by asking them to pay an additional tax of 5d. a gallon? These are the two main features of the Budget and, as far as the ordinary man is concerned, I think that he will accept them as being the basis of a sound and desirable step forward.

A number of speeches have been delivered by members of the Opposition attacking this Budget from various angles and attacking the Budget statement. Deputy Vivion de Valera, in the course of a long speech which he began last week and continued here to-day, attacked various aspects of the Government's policy as enshrined in the Budget and Budget statement, but the one point that he made clear or that could be understood by the average Deputy of this House was that he advocated that the short wave broadcasting station which has been discarded should be preserved as a war measure for the defence of this country. I want you to examine that statement. Does anyone think that if there is another major war any useful purpose will be served by this short wave station? As far as we can see, the next major war will be a war between Communism and Christianity. Does anyone think that in such a war any Christian country can remain neutral? If we are involved in this struggle and if it cannot be avoided it would not serve a useful purpose to broadcast to our Allies and does anyone think that it would serve a useful purpose to broadcast to our enemies or that the Russians would listen to our broadcasts or understand our Civil Service propaganda? That was Deputy de Valera's contribution to the debate.

Deputy Lemass, the former Minister for Industry and Commerce, made a long speech but unfortunately he disfigured that speech, he dragged it down and let himself down by seeking to revolve old Party prejudices which should be left aside in a discussion of this kind. Deputy de Valera, to give him credit, did not seek to any extent to play on Party prejudices. He referred to various angles of the Budget but Deputy Lemass could not deal with this question without going back to 1932 and telling us what state of affairs prevailed in the country at that time. He told us that in 1932 this country was an English shire. Does anyone believe that statement?

Do we not all realise, and is it not time for us to realise, that during their tenure of office the men who held the reins of Government up to 1932 did their best to strengthen the national position and the economic position? Was it not they who harnessed the Shannon? Was it not they who established the sugar beet industry? Was it not they who extended and strengthened the status of this country internationally and got this country recognised, not as a British shire, but as a member of the British Commonwealth, and who got us, as a member of the British Commonwealth, internationally recognised as being co-equal with any free nation on the face of this earth? That was a peculiar English shire for Deputy Lemass to refer to. I think that the time has come when we must avoid seeking to arouse old Party feelings and old Party hatreds. We must be prepared to acknowledge that the two big Parties that have held the reins of Government during the past 25 years have each contributed something, and something of value, to this nation. We must leave the past behind us and face the future with courage and with confidence. This Budget seeks to face the future. It seeks first of all to arrest the tendency that has been so prevalent in this country for the past 15 years of Government expenditure to increase year by year. At least that trend has been arrested. It has not been possible yet to devise permanent measures to eliminate waste and inefficiency in Government Departments. That will take some time, but at least the upward trend of expenditure has for the moment been arrested.

Last year I was one of the sponsors of a motion which sought to have an impartial Select Committee set up to inquire into Government expenditure with a view to effecting some Government economies. I believe that that proposal is not out of date. I believe that a Select Committee of this House inquiring into the working of every Government Department could discover and bring to light many sources of waste and unnecessary expenditure, and could recommend useful economies which would not in any way impair the efficiency of the services and Departments concerned. The time has come when we must realise that this State must be run as a business concern. That is not alone necessary from the point of view of relieving the tax-payers of their crushing burden, but it is necessary also in order to ensure that the large and increasing army of employees of this State shall be in a position to give an adequate and useful return to the community, thus increasing the welfare of the entire community. £77,000,000 is too much money to expend on the sort of services we have in this Twenty-Six-County State. The time has come when that expenditure must be reduced. The most effective way to reduce taxation is to increase the efficiency of every Government Department. It must be made clear to every person in the employment of the State that this is a small and a comparatively poor country and that it is the duty of public servants to give of their best to the community. Because many sections of Government Departments have grown up haphazardly and because some were regarded as merely temporary and have gradually been drafted into the permanent Civil Service there has been a great deal of overlapping and waste that could be eliminated. That ought to be the most urgent task for the Minister and his Department and I suggest that in that connection the Minister should call in the assistance of a Select Committee of this House.

Some Deputies of the Opposition have issued challenges across this House to the smaller Parties and independent Deputies. Last night Deputy Corry challenged farmer Deputies here to tell the House what we would do if the Government failed to implement the demands we have been making consistently during the past ten years. I can only assure Deputy Corry that we will not do what he did during his 16 years of office. We will not attack the Government with our tongues. We will loyally support them by our votes.

I am a very patient Deputy. I have been making demands on behalf of agriculture for the past ten years and I am prepared now to give the new Government an opportunity of delivering the goods. But I assure the House that I cannot emulate or imitate or cultivate the inexhaustible patience of Deputy Corry or the martyr-like Christian forbearance which he displayed when he accepted every snub that was given to him by the Fianna Fáil Government during the 16 years that they were on this side of the House. If we are to end the chronic poverty which has been the condition of this nation for 25 years it is essential that our agricultural, manufacturing and other industries should be brought to the fullest stage of development and productivity. It is essential that those engaged in our main industry, agriculture, should be given an adequate and fair return for their work.

Appeals have been made from all sides of the House for the paid worker, that he should be paid a living wage, but I appeal for the unpaid worker, the small holder, the small farmer, the small turf-producer—the little men. These are the people who are the backbone of national development and these are the people who are in danger always of being overlooked. They were overlooked and trampled upon during the great depression of 1930 to the eve of the world war; they were overlooked during the economic war. It is our neglect of these small holders and producers who are struggling to make a living that has produced the economic position which this country is in to-day. I have frequently pleaded that the farmer should have his costs of production recognised and investigated. The Minister for Agriculture last week suggested that if the farmer's costs of production of pigs were investigated they would show such a profit that the farmer would be ashamed of it. I do not accept that. Nobody accepts it. I believe that the real reason why we have a black market in bacon and a shortage of bacon is that the producer was never given a fair price. Other people in the industry have got a fair return, perhaps even too generous a return, but the people who produce the pigs, who feed them on the small farms, were never fairly treated and are not being fairly treated to-day.

I deplore the fact that the Government has not been prepared to provide some kind of a guarantee for the small private turf-producer, especially those on small holdings. They never knew what prosperity was, except during the brief period of the Emergency. Are they to be thrown back into the position of poverty in which they were from one generation to another? These things require attention immediately.

I attended last night a public meeting —representative of all shades of political opinion—of humble mine workers in the Avoca Valley. Those people met to consider the implications for them of the statement in this Budget that the grant for mineral exploration and development would be withdrawn. I found that they were reasonable men. They knew the potentialities of their industries and of their area in the development of deposits. They plead that, if this mineral development and exploration were allowed to continue even for a few years more, it would be proved that the Avoca area in County Wicklow is rich in mineral deposits which can be utilised to the advantage of the area and of the nation. I do not think that it is wise to withdraw completely the grant for this work. The Government may think there has been inefficiency in some public company engaged in this task. That can be remedied if it exists, but I do not know if that case has been made. I know that expert opinion is that in the Avoca area there are deposits of valuable and essential ores which could be utilised with profit once the industry is properly developed.

We are at a disadvantage in regard to this matter. Other countries have wealthy mining companies which can undertake exploration and development for a considerable period and which are strong enough to lose considerable sums of money in order to explore the resources of any areas in which they are interested. Here in this country we have not that mining tradition. We have not those wealthy mining firms and we have to rely to a great extent on State enterprise. Therefore, this matter should be given very careful attention. I am quite certain that, if the facts of the Avoca area are investigated, it will be found that there is justification for continuing the exploration and development there.

One big factor I would have liked the Minister to deal with in his Budget statement is the prospects of the future in regard to peace or war. This is a matter upon which every Government must take a decision. If the Government are of opinion that the present precarious peace which we are enjoying is going to be short-lived, it is their duty to provide for the emergency which must come upon us. On the other hand, if they are convinced that the world can look forward to a long period of peace and stability, their entire economic plans must be of a completely different nature. This is one of the biggest decisions which a Government could be called upon to make. If it is decided that the danger of war is great, there is an urgent and imperative obligation upon the Government to accumulate and lay in supplies of such essentials as may not be obtainable in an emergency situation. There is, of course, an element of risk in any course of action that the Government may decide to take. If they accumulate supplies and war does not materialise, they will be open to blame for having spent public money on this work, for having purchased supplies when they are expensive instead of waiting until they become cheaper. But this is a kind of risk which every Government must take. If they feel that there is any real danger that war will come on the world within the next year or two or three, there is a moral obligation on them to safeguard our people as far as possible by accumulating such supplies. That applies to coal and to raw materials for industry and it affects to a great extent our agricultural policy.

The Minister for Agriculture stated last week that he would like to make it illegal to use a horse for agricultural work in this country. I would not be prepared to support that statement, even if I were assured that we were facing a prolonged period of peace and tranquillity in Europe; but can we imagine what the position would be if the Minister were to secure the elimination of the horse for agricultural purposes and if we were to find ourselves without the fuel oil necessary for mechanical farming? Can we picture the position in which our farmers would be placed in trying to harness, perhaps, the cows and bulls to carry on the agricultural operations? I think it would be a rather horrible situation if, in the middle of the next war, the Minister for Agriculture were to find himself endeavouring to open drills for beet with a dual-purpose bull.

Would the Deputy reserve some of that for the Minister for Agriculture's Estimate?

It might be a little stale by that time and I think it is necessary that we should face up to problems of this kind in a realistic way.

I am anxious that the Deputy should face up to taxation and expenditure and the general financial policy.

In the Budget statement the Minister for Finance referred in a general way to economy policy, to the excessive burden of imports and of our falling exports. He referred to these matters in a general way and I, too, am replying in a general way.

I thought the Deputy was opening drills.

It is necessary sometimes to illustrate a matter of this kind by, perhaps, a little too vivid a picture. Surely these are matters upon which all Parties in this House can share responsibility and which all Parties can discuss with advantage to the community. We are tired of having a situation in which important matters of this kind affecting our economy, are dealt with from a purely narrow Party point of view. I am prepared to deal with this matter in a non-Party spirit. I am prepared to criticise aspects of Government policy where I think they require criticism. I am prepared to give full credit to the Minister in a difficult national situation and a difficult world situation for having introduced a Budget which represents a very substantial step forward as compared with what we have experienced over the past 16 years. I would have liked the Minister for Finance to have referred, even in a brief way, to the distribution of the burden of taxation as between the State and the local authorities. There has been a tendency for some time past, not only on the part of the past Government but even on the part of the present Government, to pass additional burdens on to the local authorities. I believe that that is a natural tendency. It is natural that we here should try to raise as much money as possible for the various concerns for which it is demanded and, at the same time, that we should try to avoid having to meet the bill. There is, therefore, a natural tendency to pass portion of the bill on to the local authorities. That problem will have to be faced some time. I would have welcomed an expression of opinion on the part of the Minister, or some statement of policy upon that question, indicating his intention to face that problem and to see that additional burdens are not piled on to the local authorities in a progressively increasing volume. That is an urgent matter and it is one which will have to be faced before the end of this financial year.

I feel very concerned about this Budget because of the indications of general policy which are shown in it, with reference to certain items in particular. Take, for instance, the short-wave station, in which I am particularly interested. The short-wave station was set up for several purposes but the chief one was that it would be there in time of crisis. Whether that crisis would be of war or under other conditions, such as strained relations, it did not matter. It was most important to have it there in order that we would be in direct communication with our friends all over the world. It was also there for the purpose of strengthening our international relations with all countries and of forwarding our cultural purposes. The excuse given is that this project is costing too much. The cost of buying the whole plant and of putting it up amounted roughly to £110,000. The Estimate has dropped this year by that amount because the expenses have ceased. The cost of running the station is a nett figure of about £103,000. When licences and advertisements are taken into consideration the nett figure is £103,000 on the Estimate. If those taxes—income from imported radio sets—which were imposed by a former Minister for Finance—Mr. Blythe—are also taken into consideration, and if you add that as money belonging properly to the broadcasting station, then the cost is reduced to next to nothing. I do not happen to have the figures with me at the moment but I think it will be found that annually there is a profit on the transaction, so that the cost is entirely inconsiderable. That is why I say that there is an attitude of hostility towards this attempt of Ireland to develop on strong national lines.

Further, it is said that the negotiations were a failure. The negotiations were not a failure. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs sent three of our very best officials to a very gruelling international conference which lasted six months. We also sent our representatives to European conferences. In both these places our representatives achieved high distinction in the work they did under very difficult circumstances, where the cross-currents of political conflict were upsetting the possibility of carrying through an understanding and negotiations. At the conference held in Atlantic City it was our delegates who first put forward the proposal that no country should get a monopoly of wave-lengths until all countries, small and large, had first been treated with an equitable share. That proposition was accepted by that conference. It was referred to a higher authority and to a subsequent conference. In addition, our representatives made very good contacts. They got on the most cordial and helpful terms with other countries who were very influential and there were conversations of a very promising nature which would have given us a share in wave-lengths with other countries. The position now is that if the station is closed down we are going to lose the opportunity which has been created.

Have they got the wave-length?

There is to be a conference in October and at that conference the final agreements will be arrived at. The position was that you could not get a wave-length unless you had a plant. The plant was being built at the time our negotiations were going on and, in that way, we got our foot in, so to speak. The position now is that the wave-lengths are in a condition of chaos. There is no agreement in existence between any countries. Any country, to-morrow, could muscle in to any wave-length and interfere with any other country's broadcasting because the last agreement is obsolete—it was made some time before the beginning of the war. Even suppose we did not get a wave-length, we could get in on any we liked——

You could use any you liked.

There will be a conference in October at which the matter will be decided.

Does the Deputy not know that we have very little chance?

We have every chance —and I speak from information—after the negotiations that have already taken place. Unless all these countries are satisfied, the situation is so sensitive that anybody can butt in and destroy the hearing from other stations. Just as we got a medium-wave it is almost inevitable that every country that wants one will get at least a share of the short-wave band. Formerly it might have been said that it would have been impossible to get a medium-wave. We got a medium-wave and we were pretty satisfied with it. In the same way it was almost certain that we would get a wave-length as a result of the very able negotiations that our people have carried on. Now the whole project is to be sabotaged, not because of the cost, but for some other reason, some political reason, or, I rather think it is this, an absolute absence of national conviction about the status and dignity of this country.

God save us!

One argument put up was that it would cost a lot for us to employ people to speak foreign languages. The critic who made that remark was not aware of the fact that one of our announcers had been previously employed in Geneva with the League of Nations on account of his ability to speak foreign languages and that we are lacking neither in brains nor in education in this country to get people who can speak European languages to get across our material. Every other country is spending money on the radio. Every other country is using it as a shop window for culture and for making contacts with other countries. Some countries are spending large sums of money, countries that are smaller than Ireland and that are not as rich as Ireland. We are to be left in the position of being entirely isolated by depriving ourselves of this modern development.

I am surprised that the Minister for Finance is taking up this line, because he was formerly Minister for External Affairs and he had an opportunity of widening his vision about these matters. I had the impression that he believed in continuity of policy from one Government to another, at least in the matter of external affairs. For this reason, I thought he would have continued the same policy we had initiated. However, I suppose in a way it would give more satisfaction, if I were merely to consider Party spirit, to see the present Government making as big a mess of things as possible. But in this particular matter, where national interests of such a serious nature are concerned, I would much rather see the Government do the right thing and get whatever credit there is for it. I would even now ask them to reconsider their attitude in the matter.

When the present Head of the Government was making his statement on the wireless, he spoke of Ireland assuming a position of international importance, as interpreting European thought to America and American sympathy to Europe. I do not see that that is very consistent with the shutting down of our short-wave station. It seems to me a complete reversal of the policy as declared by the Taoiseach. I do not know how Clann na Poblachta can be satisfied with the shutting down of the station. In so far as they got any mandate from the people, they got it to be more intensely national than any other Party in the House. One of the planks in their platform was the development of culture and of our strong national and international position. You cannot put nationality into abeyance; you may put other things into abeyance, but you cannot put that into abeyance. However, I suppose, if they acquiesce in this, they will be cutting the branch they are sitting on, so that we can derive that grim satisfaction out of their taking part in the wrecking of this thoroughly national project.

It is said that we will not be heard in some of these countries. Anybody who wishes to listen in late at night even to the Australian station will get it at times with perfect clarity. The short wave is not always perfect, but it is very often extremely good. We often get the American stations here on the short wave. If one mast was to deal with the western hemisphere, another with the south-western, another with the Australian or south-eastern, and another with Europe, it is certain that our voice would be got out to the world and, if it did get out, it would be available for all our friends and available to explain our position with reference to international affairs.

I regret very much that the Minister for Finance was not here when I was making an appeal on behalf of the short-wave station and meeting many of the objections. Of course, I know it is the duty of the permanent officials to put up as many difficulties as possible in regard to these matters. It is the duty of the Government to consider these and then to make decisions on questions of high policy. On account of the very serious principle involved, I think that in this matter of broadcasting any difficulties which may have been put up must necessarily be overruled by the considerations which I have already mentioned. However, I do not think I ought to go over the points I have made already. I hope the Minister will read what I have said and change his mind about the shutting down of the short-wave station.

Speaking generally about the Budget, one can group many of the proposals in a summary way. Some undoubtedly will have the effect of raising the cost of living; for instance, the increased rates of interest on loans to local authorities, the transfer of payment of cash allowances from the central authority to employers and employees in reference to various insurance schemes, the withdrawal of the subsidy on oatmeal and margarine. In the case of oatmeal, while the subsidy on flake meal is being withdrawn the country is being flooded with Canadian rolled oats I suppose the Government are reverting to a free trade policy and so we must take the consequences.

Then there is the increased duty on petrol which will undoubtedly send up the cost for the farmers who use petrol and heavy oils. It will send up their cost of production and the cost of transport. Then the transfer of 50 per cent. of the food allowances will mean that it will have to be imposed on the rates. All that group will send up the cost of living. Then we are eating into the future in regard to three items— the wheat subsidy, which is to be spread over the next five years; the raid upon the investment fund of the widows and orphans; and taking 13 months of the beer duties in 12 months. That is merely taxing the future for the present year, which is an extremely bad principle. It is a worse principle than raising a loan for the same purpose. In the case of the measures taken with reference to turf, they are going to increase emigration and unemployment.

Taken by your people.

They were not taken by our people. That has been denied more than once.

They were taken on the 12th February.

I beg your pardon; they were not.

A decision was taken but not in the form in which the Government is now taking it. That is a very different thing. A change-over could have been made gradually and not suddenly.

You decided it.

Then there are several items that are going to destroy national inspiration. There is the cutting down of the Army and the cutting down of the air lines. I understand that, in that case we lost 100,000 dollars worth of bookings by the postponement of that one passage. People spoke in this House of Irish people going to America, but they did not refer to IrishAmericans coming back here to renew their acquaintance with the old country.

Coming by air.

And they would not come by any other air service?

Of course you can hand the whole thing over to other countries if you like. In any case that 100,000 dollars worth was lost by the cancellation of the service on the 17th March.

What would it have cost to run the service on that date?

That is a question which I cannot answer. I am sure that, at any rate, it was a very good start for the service. Then there is the cutting down of the trivial sum of £25,000 on sports. At least we should try to direct our young people into exercises healthy for mind and body. Why on earth we should cut out a small sum like that which was going to help to raise the repute of Ireland, a country which has always produced great athletes, I do not know except that there is a general political bias against whatever Fianna Fáil had done.

They had not done it, of course.

They had.

They had entered it in the Estimates for the first time in their history.

We had only emerged from a war, and during that period we had none of these international contests.

What about 1932 to 1939?

We were very busy at that time fighting the Opposition, establishing the Constitution, getting our industries going and building the foundations without which this Government would not be able to go as far as they claim they are going to go.

I start off in a very positive manner to express to the Minister for Finance my personal appreciation of the courage and achievement evidenced by him in his Budget and Budget statement. I had hoped for a realistic Budget, for an honest, real approach to stop the lunatic squandermania that was the legacy and the heritage of the Minister for Finance from the last Administration. It is very encouraging, not only to my Party but I am sure to our colleagues in the inter-Party Government, that the Minister for Finance has faced his problem by transferring the burden of taxation to the shoulders that he thinks are able to carry it.

There has been a lot of bleating on the other side of the House. There is very little substance, however, in any argument they can advance against the Budget because they are facing first and foremost the realisation that in a very short space of time the new Minister for Finance was able in a realistic way to cut and trim and stop in a short period £8,000,000 of their squandermania.

And cause unemployment.

Mr. Collins

They come in here and bleat—the archbleater is just after bleating—about unemployment in connection with turf. That will not wash because everybody knows that the first indication of that is to be found in their Book of Estimates in which the ex-Minister for Industry and Commerce proposed to cut down expenditure on hand-won turf by £500,000. Deputy Bartley comes in and begins to moan about the turf scheme and thinks we should continue it, but there is no suggestion offered by any of these wordy and learned gentlemen as to what we are going to do with the legacy of dirt that we have in the Phoenix Park.

This Budget gets down to real problems. Deputy Little is worrying about the short-wave station, but he was not very straightforward in his answer as to what wave-length we had. The fact is, we had none. There was a very uncertain possibility of ever having one and, even if we had one, it appears that our friends in America— that he talked so much about—have got the type of wireless sets that could receive us, anyway. This Budget starts off by putting this inter-Party Government in the position that this ship of State is going to be steered the right way at last. Criticism may be offered and efforts to split Parties may be indulged in because we have not gone the full way. I think the Irish public will realise in a very salutary fashion the immensity of the steps that are being taken in this Budget.

There is nobody in this House more anxious than I am for the abolition of the means test. If the Minister for Finance cannot go the whole way, I am glad of his indication that there is going to be a considerable modification of it. It was hurled at us for years that the Cumann na nGaedheal Government had cut the old age pensions. It is a grand thing to stand here and be able to show in our first effort that, far from talking about it, we are getting down to the task of first and foremost helping the weakest section in the community.

Criticism has been offered of the abandonment of the grant of £25,000 for athletics. During the course of this debate I interjected that, in 16 years of office, it was only in this Budget of 1948 provision was made in the Estimates for an athletic grant. There was a time when one of the finest athletes that this country ever produced could have been retained by the then Fianna Fáil Administration as an instructor at a very small salary, but they would not undertake that commitment, and so they let Tisdall go to South Africa. There is no good coming in here now and moaning about the loss of a £25,000 athletic grant.

Is it not full time that everybody realises that this country has to live within its means? Is it not full time that nonsensical statements about there being no reduction in taxation or no reduction in the cost of living should cease? It is even horrible to envisage what might have been the Budget if there had not been a change of Government. Remembering that over £6,000,000 has been cut out by closer estimation, and remembering too that the people on the other side of the House are trying in a futile way to attack a Budget that has taken a burden of at least £6,000,000 or £7,000,000 taxation off the Irish people, one trembles to think what taxation might have been but for the change. A lot of nonsense has been uttered about cutting the Army. The Army and its efficiency have not been in any way impaired by these savings. I know something about the Army, and I know a lot of the personnel in it, and I can say that no airy nonsense in this House on the Budget statement is going to cause any uneasiness there.

Deputy Little talked about our national integrity as if there was a monopoly of nationality over there. The sooner Deputies at the other side of the House realise that there are Irishmen as good, and as Irish as the best of them, as honestly Irish as the best of them, on this side of the House the better for themselves. Because the Minister for Finance produces what I might honestly describe as the effort of a wizard, a Budget that not only arrests squandermania but retards it in a very noticeable manner—moans, groans and bleats from the other side of the House. There will be a lot of cross-roads talk about the price of petrol, but I think that, deep down in his heart, any man who drives a motor car or a motor lorry is not going to resent the increase in the price of petrol when it is giving benefits to the weaker sections of the community.

Somebody said that there has been a sell-out to the publican. Because the Minister, looking at the figures and realising that through stupid blundering any revenue that might have been got from wines was gone, because he faces that problem and puts wines at a price that will yield some revenue, Deputies talk about a sell-out. This country has to get back from the unfortunate position in which a policy of the blind leading the blind over 16 years has left us. I in no uncertain fashion congratulate the Minister for Finance on this Budget and I wish him a continuation of the same outlook and the same courage in the many Budgets which he will have to introduce. I hope that year after year all wastage will be culled, that practical reproductive schemes will be the objective towards which Government money will be directed, that all nonsense will cease, that the State's money will be spent in order of priority on the State's most immediate needs and that instead of bleats and moans we shall get some kind of constructive criticism from the gentlemen over there.

I hope that the Minister will continue to put the burden of taxation where it can best be carried, that if needs ever be that the upper ten or the rich corporations should be hit and if it becomes necessary in the running of the country to come after the big man in a bigger way, the Minister will do that, too. My outlook on the Budget is: do the best for everybody by imposing your taxation where it can best be carried. Let people say what they like about luxuries or anything else; describe the "smoke," the pint or other things as luxuries; say what you like about that but to the weaker section of the community, these are commodities that they buy and commodities they use all the time. No matter what may be said on the other side of the House, any reduction in the cost of these commodities represents a reduction in his cost of living to the man in the street, and to the man in the street this new Budget is a Budget of a Government trying to do its best to bring order out of a legacy of chaos.

There are two aspects of a Budget—political and economic. The discussion, so far as it has gone, in its main points has been devoted to the first aspect—the political aspect. Apart from excursions here and there into economic matters, there was not much to hold interest except where the impact of speakers was on the political implications of the Budget. Now, the production of a Budget is not a mere routine act. If it purports to do anything, it purports to transfer or to attempt to transfer to various classes of the community certain powers and benefits and if we are to be real and fair we should have examined the Budget from that point of view. It is a distributive act, but, in saying that, we must remember that it can stimulate or retard certain political and economic developments. We, on this side of the House, are particularly interested in examining how far this Budget tends to stimulate or retard the economic development of the country. Negatively, a Budget may leave things in the condition in which they were before it was introduced. In the old days, on the plea of implementing the policy of laissez faire, the ideal Budget was the Budget which did least, but nowadays, with the extension of State enterprise, with the control the State has over large fields of the industrial economy of the country, it is impossible for a Budget to take that negative position Not only unconsciously but consciously, from the point of view of any Minister for Finance, it does affect the economic development of the country, or retard it, and does affect the relative positions of the different economic classes in the country.

For that reason, some Budgets have been characterised as rich men's Budgets and others as poor men's Budgets. My understanding of the term "rich man's Budget" is a Budget which would consolidate the power of the creditor interests in the employing classes, free them from onerous taxes, increase the value of their investments and otherwise improve their position economically and financially, and, on that basis, politically, as well. I doubt whether an examination of this Budget on that objective standard could lead honestly to its characterisation as a rich man's Budget. A poor man's Budget, on the other hand, would take the maximum possible in taxes from the well-to-do, consistent with continuing production for profit as the basis of the present system of economy, and would distribute this from the well-to-do to the ill-to-do, in the form of social welfare schemes, the amelioration of their lot in various ways, the provision of better housing and generally levelling or tending to level off the worst of the glaring differences which manifest themselves in the present social system between the rich and the poor and the different classes in our economy. Obviously, the better off the workers and poorer sections of the community are as a result of a Budget, the more likely is it that the mass of the community will assist, support and succour the Parties or Government responsible for their well-being and thus we have naturally the political implications of the Budget.

It was to these political implications that I think Deputy Lemass mainly addressed himself. I may say that from his first ex tempore talk on the Budget and his talk later on the Financial Resolutions, I could find myself admiring him more in Opposition than in Government. I do not believe, however, that there was much validity in his arguments. He made a very good rallying speech. He did the best he could in a bad situation and tried to hold out for his followers prospects of an early victory for the Opposition.

He did a good deal for the workers of this country, too.

They had to fight hard for it.

Mr. Burke

He created employment for them.

I will come to the points which may interest the Deputy in due course. I was saying that Deputy Lemass endeavoured to rally the faltering forces of Fianna Fáil. There is good alliteration in that, I notice. He tried to break the temporary links which bind the various Parties in the Coalition. In this, I think, he over-estimated the importance of the Budget. Perhaps, echoing another spokesman of that Party, he thought that the conflicting interests, as he would see them, of the various Parties in the Coalition would result in an inability on their part to find any common level when such a question as the Budget arose, and I think he hoped to drive a wedge, as another speaker said, between the Parties in the Coalition; but it should be manifest to him and to his followers that this attempt to break the Coalition on the Budget has failed.

It was bound to fail in particular owing to the fact that there was a misdirection of effort on the part of Deputy Lemass. He, perhaps rightly from his own point of view, but wrongly as events have proved, thought that the Labour Party was the weakest link in this Coalition, owing to the definite basis which it always had and always will have, as an independent Party, representative of a definite section of the community, the working class, the smaller farmers, the agricultural labourers, the people who contribute to the wellbeing of this social system of ours, who have built up this nation and that a fierce onslaught directed against that Party might make them waver in their position with regard to the Coalition. Deputy Larkin, however, very competently stated the point of view of the Labour Party in this regard. I would underline what he said by saying that the members of the Fianna Fáil Party and the Deputies will realise now that the Budget is not everything.

So far as we are concerned, for the greater good of the community, and, in particular, of that section of the community which we endeavour to represent, with perhaps no great success up to the present but with the promise of greater success in the future, we believe that there are many things with which we can put up. I have no hesitation in putting my view and, I think, the view of most of the Labour Deputies on this question. I have nothing to hide nor has the Labour Party, and I wish to be brutally frank about the matter. If it is of any service to the House, if it will in any way clarify the minds of the Opposition, I will be brutally frank and, if you like, frankly brutal.

The attitude of the Labour Party in regard to the whole matter of the Coalition and their support of the Coalition Budget is that they want to improve the position of the Party in this country, because, and this is why we are members of the Party, we believe that the strengthening of the Labour Party is the best guarantee of working-class progress. It has held that point of view for many years. It has existed for quite a long time as a definite and separate entity in this country. I believe that it will continue to do so despite any attempt at falsification of its line of policy or of its actions by any of those papers which call themselves national organs of opinion. Geographically they may be national but, from my experience, I doubt very much that any of the three have any claim to be considered national politically.

The best guarantee that we have of social progress in this country—social progress which will be extended by subsequent Budgets—is that we should have a small Labour Party. In the past, because of oral propaganda, because of written propaganda, we failed —I am quite ready to admit it—to convince the majority of the people of the country whom we desired to convince. We did not want to convince the social drones or the "spivs". We wanted to convince the common people of the country. But we failed to persuade them for certain historical reasons and because of the way this country developed that the Labour Party was capable of taking charge of the destinies of the country. The people were fooled with the idea that the big national Parties, such as Fianna Fáil, had a monopoly of the competence, the ability, the integrity, the record and everything else which they considered necessary to constitute a governmental Party. The only way to convince the majority of the people that the Labour Party had that governmental administrative ability and competence was to take a short cut and to prove to them by the propaganda of fact that this was the real reason for Labour's participation in the Coalition. As years proved, they could not be cured in their blind faith. Because of the poverty of the Labour Party and of the people whom it represented, it was impossible to have any daily newspaper at its command in order to give forth day after day our point of view to the multitude. Because of that and because of the historical reasons to which I have referred, it was impossible for us to make progress in this country as a subject nationality commensurate with the progress made by other Labour Parties in practically every country in the world. Without going any deeper into the matter now, that was sufficient reason for the Labour Party supporting the Coalition and supporting the Coalition's Budget. Deputy Larkin indicated the general attitude of the Labour Party to the Coalition and the divergent points of view of the various Parties that constituted the Coalition. The Labour Party is not going to be manoeuvred out of the Coalition by parliamentary trickery or subterfuge. The Labour Party is basically a working-class Party.

On a point of order, is this a speech on behalf of the Labour Party or is it a debate on the Budget?

Are you afraid to listen to it?

I am waiting to see what point the Deputy is going to make.

I think that interruption comes very badly from Deputy Burke.

A Deputy

It would come better from you, would it not?

It certainly would not come from me at any time.

I assumed that Deputy Burke had read the speech of the acting leader of his Party in column 1058 and the three subsequent columns of volume 110 in which he debated this whole question of the Party attitude to the Coalition in reference to the Budget. If Deputy Burke is interested —and I assume he is—I am now trying to tell him why the Labour Party is supporting the Coalition Budget before I deal with the various aspects of the Budget itself.

He will not understand you.

You are a good teacher.

I have divided my dissertation into two parts. I propose to examine the Budget both from the political and from the economic point of view. I stated that Deputy Lemass devoted the greater part of his effort to the first aspect. He pretended to an inability to understand why the Deputies of the Labour Party supported the Budget. If it is permissible for him to do that, surely it is permissible for me on the Government side of the House to clarify the position in that regard.

We are supporting this Budget as a Party which is basically a working-class Party dependent upon the support of the industrial workers, the agricultural workers and the middle classes in the towns. The Labour Party will defend the interests of those sections of the community to the best of its ability consistent with the general interests of the country as a whole. That is the basis of its support for the Financial Resolutions before the House. So long as the policy of the Government does not run counter to these interests, as it does not run specifically counter to them in this Budget, the Labour Party will defend the Government no matter how critical it may be of the Government vocally. In the very unlikely event of any definite anti-working-class propositions appearing in the Budget or in the legislative programme of the Government, the Labour Party will do its duty towards these sections of the community. In that very unlikely event, there will come a parting of the ways. Any antiLabour legislation on the part of any Government will find strenuous opposition from the Labour Party.

We are in the Coalition, as every other Party is in the Coalition, for what we can get out of it—that is putting it quite plainly—for those sections of the community that we represent. The Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party may pretend, but the pretence wears rather thin when one considers the records, to some Robespierrean incorruptibility. They may pretend that they were on this side of the House merely for the good of Cathleen Ní Houlihán and knew nothing about licences, quotas or such things as that. They may pretend that they had no economic interests to serve or that they did not serve any particular economic class in this country. That may be their pretence but it is evident from their acts and from their financial provisions that they did definitely support certain sections. They may have thought they were right from their point of view. I have no quarrel with them because of that. They supported certain economic sections of the country. We in our turn are supporting the interests of the labourers, the little people, the middle classes and the working-classes generally. They are the people who are mainly concerned with the cost of living and with wages.

On these matters the Minister had something to say, and with what he has said we might find some points at issue. He referred to what he terms a substantial wage and to increases already secured by all classes of workers, with such further advantages as shorter hours, etc., and in the circumstances he appeals to all employees not to seek further increases in remuneration or improvements in working conditions unless warranted by exceptional circumstances. Of course the present circumstances are exceptional and will continue to be exceptional in this transitional period, so in that respect perhaps there may not be as much in the remarks of the Minister as we might be inclined to think from another angle. His statement that wages were now 65 or 75 per cent. more than in 1939 is quite correct, but these, as the Minister realises, are not the real wages of the workers and it is with the real wages that he and we should be concerned.

The Minister will now admit, as he has stated on several occasions when on the other side of the House, that the value of the £ is roughly equal to 10/-. Therefore, on a basis of equity the Minister has nothing to complain of in regard to the demands for further increases until wages are double what they were in 1939. If the value of the £ has gone down by that proportion, then in order to bring the real wages back to the standard of 1939—and there was no great merit or benefit in that standard; it was not the absolute standard beyond which the working classes could not progress—we have a case for a further demand for wages until they are at least double those of the 1939 standard.

On the figures given by the Minister, despite real wages being 15 per cent. below the standard required to equalise with the 1939 conditions, industrial production has risen by 4 per cent. above pre-war. Thus we have increased production, increased work on the part of the working classes for a wage 15 per cent. less than they were receiving in 1939 meaning; in effect, the producers have been subject to increased exploitation, whereas the same state of affairs cannot be said to obtain on the other side of the picture in regard to the making of profits. In only one sphere of the wage-earning community in regard to agricultural wages has there been an increase sufficient on the basis I have outlined to compensate for the loss of value of the £.

Agricultural wages, the Minister said, have doubled since 1939, but that is no great advance in the economic field. It is nothing of which we can be proud. It is not a reason for holding up our hands to stop further advances in the agricultural field, because everybody knows quite well, without any statistical quotations on my part, that the level of wages of the agricultural labourers was probably one of the lowest in Europe, that the doubling of wages at the present time in comparison with 1939 does not bring them anything near that obtained by their fellow workers in Northern Ireland or in England. Therefore, this solitary example of the Minister, that wages have doubled in one particular field, does not affect the issue at all.

Take the case of the middle classes. How have they fared in regard to this question? Quite a large section of the middle classes draw their incomes directly from the Department for which the Minister is responsible. The Minister drew our attention to the fact that agricultural wages have doubled and industrial workers are receiving 65 to 70 per cent. more than in 1939. But in 1940, when Civil Service salaries were stabilised, almost a year before the general standstill Order, the average Civil Service salary in this country was £196 per annum, or just about £3 15s. 0d. per week. In 1946, when the general standstill Order had been removed and the Civil Service salaries had been consolidated at 20 points below the then cost-of-living figure—50 points below the present one —the average salary had risen only to £250 per annum or £4 16s. 0d. per week. This was an average increase of only 27.6 per cent, showing that of the three classes—the agricultural wage earners, the industrial wage earners and what is representative of the lower middle classes, the civil servants—the increase they obtained was the lowest of all.

For 1948 we cannot obtain firm figures but, taking an estimated total cost of £8,800,000 spread over 32,000 officials, we get an average salary of something under £5 6s. per week at the very best for civil servants. This means an average increase since the outbreak of the war of only 40 per cent compared with the other percentages which I have already mentioned for other categories. The Minister who is at present paying the Civil Service at the cost-of-living figure of 270 instead of the figure at which it really stands, which is 320, is saving, at the expense of the middle-class representatives, the Civil Service, £1,250,000 per annum. That is the position of the Civil Service, and its general economic position compares very unfavourably with other types of occupations in which middle classes are normally found, such as the bank service.

The Minister is undoubtedly familiar with these figures and I am sure that they should be taken into consideration when he is making this appeal and when he wants to judge the validity of the appeal. The attitude of all wage-earning sections of the community will be, when the Minister puts up an appeal to them not to press for further monetary increases, what is he going to do about prices? That is the real test. No appeal by a Minister, no appeal by a trade union congress, a congress of Irish unions, or by trade unions generally, will stop wage movements in this country until the wageearners have been satisfied that the Government are serious in their attempts to control prices so as to make real wages of value. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.
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