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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 May 1948

Vol. 110 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 6—General (Resumed).

Question again proposed:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(Minister for Finance).

The Minister for Finance, in introducing his Budget, stated that there was a deficit between the estimate for expenditure and the estimate of the yield of taxation now in force. He estimated a deficiency of £8,731,000. The Minister has been complimented by some of the Deputies who sit behind him on his success in making economies. I should like to go into these economies in detail in order to find out, by analysis, what the economies were. The named economies that is the economies which he accounted for in the debate, amounted to £2,509,000 and, in addition to that, there was a sum of £1,122,000 for economies which he stated he had not already in the bag and, therefore, was not in a position to tell the House what they were. Then there were economies on food subsidies amounting to £3,015,000. These economies total £6,646,000, and the balance was made up by increased taxation. Therefore, the first point that emerges from an examination of these figures is that the economies amounted to £3,631,000. I was listening to a very able speech from my colleague, Deputy Esmonde, and he assumed all through his speech that the economies amounted to £8,000,000. That is not so. The economies really amounted to £3,600,000, as anybody who analyses the figures will find out.

It is not enough for the Minister to make economies. He must make a good economy, that is an economy that every reasonable person will approve of. But we find that the first big economy the Minister made was £950,000 from social services. That, I am quite sure, would not meet with the approval of many Deputies—that a Minister who finds himself in a difficulty in balancing his Budget should look to social services for an economy, especially a very big economy of this kind. The first part of the economy on social services is £450,000, which has been voted year after year towards the financing of widows' and orphans' pensions. Having been in that Department for some time, I know that the Department of Finance has always had a jealous eye on this particular sum of £450,000, and the Minister responsible for widows' and orphans' pensions always fought, and successfully fought, except on one occasion at the beginning of the war, to keep that £450,000 there. It is true that it was not wanted from year to year, but the idea was to build up a fund until an occasion should arise when it would be possible to increase the widows' and orphans' pensions without increasing taxation or the contribution to the fund from year to year from that on. At any rate, that £450,000 is gone for this year and the widows' and orphans' pensions fund will suffer to that extent. It is a thing that could not be continued year after year, because the employers' contribution, the employees' contribution and the contribution from the State would not be sufficient to pay the widows' and orphans' pensions at the present rate, both contributory and non-contributory. The amount is increasing year after year. That is only to be expected, because with a scheme like that, where numbers of the population commence contributions, as the years go on the contributory pensions will increase until the scheme is running for, let us say, 25, 30 or 35 years, the ordinary expectation of life of people coming into it, and it is only at that period that we may expect to have what will be more or less from that onwards a steady expenditure under the scheme.

That was the first item of saving. The second was a sum of £500,000, the amount calculated to be payable in the way of increased benefits for unemployment and national health insurance last year, which sum it is now proposed to put upon a contributory basis. That is possibly a thing that would be done by a Minister for Social Welfare at some time or other, but, at the moment, at any rate, it means £500,000 taken from social services for this year and it is calculated that the sum will amount to £900,000 in the full year. Therefore, of the £3,500,000, roughly, in economies which were effected by the Minister, almost £1,000,000 comes from social services as a start off.

The next big item on the list is a saving of £750,000 on the Army. I have not heard from the Minister precise details with regard to this, but I gather from some of the answers given that the big saving on the Army is to be on the reserve and the Construction Corps. Now, it is questionable whether it is an economy to have an Army reserve, to keep personnel, to pay a certain amount to each man on the reserve as a sort of retainer and, at the same time, not to give these men any training, because it appears to me that the country is going to pay for a reserve which will not be as efficient as they should be if they are ever required. It is to be assumed that if the country has a reserve in the Army that they will be there if they are required in any emergency or crisis. If the idea is to have a reserve for a purpose of that kind, surely the country should see that they are going to be efficient whenever they are required. I, therefore, question whether it is a wise economy to save money on the training of the reserve. It might have been wiser to reduce the numbers and have a smaller but more efficient reserve or it might have been wiser to try to make a saving in some other way.

The second point was the construction corps. I do not know what the views of the Minister may be on a construction corps, but I certainly had never heard any adverse criticism of the idea behind the organisation of this construction corps when it was being organised or during the years it was in being. The idea was to try to make useful citizens of young men from the cities and towns who were not able to find work, to give them training so that they would become more useful citizens and be better able to work after doing a couple of years' training in the Army —useful also if they wanted to join the Army as regular members or go into civilian employment.

There was also the item mentioned of £1,122,000 which the Minister hopes to save but in respect of which he did not give details, because, as he said, he had not got it already in the bag. I think that such a procedure is unprecedented. I do not know if any Minister for Finance in this country ever before gave a sum of money of that kind as an expected saving without mentioning where the saving was expected to be made. It is not a very good precedent to establish. If it were followed by future Ministers for Finance it might lead to the point where a Minister could say that he expected to save a lump sum of money and not give any further details.

There are some smaller items, the disappearance of which many Deputies, I think, deplore, but which are not of any great importance from the financial point of view in the sense that they are small. There is, for instance, the £85,000 for mineral exploration. We have had the belief in this country that there might be wealth to be found as a result of proper exploration and proper investigation. A Department was set up to investigate and to explore for minerals. These minerals, wherever found, would be a source of wealth and a saving in our exchange with other countries, but that Department is now to go. I do not know if the personnel in it will be dispensed with, and whether it will be possible, at a future date, to organise this service again and to make it as effective as one would like to see it. There is the small item of £25,000 for athletics. It is a pity that it should go because there does appear to be a demand in many cities and towns for more amenities and better opportunities for our young people to enjoy themselves. One of the things which would help to keep the people in the rural areas which are near the smaller towns is the opportunity of spending their free time to good advantage.

The £25,000 has nothing to do with rural amenities.

I do not agree altogether with the Minister on that point. It might not specifically in this particular instance, but surely it is leading to it. Then there was the item of £298,000 which was distributed over a number of Departments—the Board of Works, the Tourist Board, Education, External Affairs, etc. With regard to education to-day we got the figure of £20,000.

The figure given to-day for education was £28,500.

Then there was the item of £176,000 on posts and telegraphs. Looking at the items that I have mentioned—social services, the Army, mineral exploration, posts and telegraphs—I think there is one thing that emerges, and it is that the attempt that was made by the various Parties which now compose the Government to prove to the country that an extravagant Government had been in office here for the last 16 years has failed. I think they have failed in that attempt. If there was an extravagant Government here which had presented a bill for £78,000,000, and if these Parties combined had come in, as they said themselves, to clean things up, well we see what the fruit of that cleaning up is now. There is nothing very big there. There is nothing, in fact, very desirable in the cleaning up that has been done, so that I think any fairminded person would say that, after all, there was not very much extravagance at any rate in the bill that was presented by the Fianna Fáil Government before they left office.

There are savings also on food, but they are of a different order. The big saving is on wheat and bread. The saving is £2,500,000. The Minister for Finance, in his Budget statement, showed that if we were to meet expenditure as it arose during the coming year—that is to keep bread at its present price and to buy wheat as we expect to buy it during the coming 12 months at the price we expect it to be—there would be no such saving as £2,500,000. The Minister adopted a different system of financing when he came to this question of bread and wheat. He took a five-year period and he gave his estimate of what the wheat prices would be during the coming five years and the amount we would require to import. He spread the cost over the five years and in that way he was able to make a saving of £2,500,000 on bread and wheat subsidies during the coming year.

The Minister for Finance might have a good argument for doing that, but if the last Government made their estimates on the assumption that they were going to pay for the wheat and bread subsidy as it arose during the coming year, nobody could accuse the Fianna Fáil Government of being extravagant. They might accuse them of being too conservative in their financing by providing for the subsidies as they arose when it was obvious that things were going to improve in the four years afterwards. There is no extravagance there. Nobody can say that the £2,500,000 was cut out by the present Minister for Finance, because he had a more conservative outlook in regard to saving than the Government who went before. It is only a different system of financing, a system, if you like, of borrowing during the coming year on the price of bread during the following four years. If, for instance, the Fianna Fáil plan had been followed of paying our way in bread and wheat during the coming year, then obviously there would be a big reduction in the following years, but now under the Minister's system there is going to be an equal amount charged in respect of the bread subsidy for five years to come.

The next item was in respect to sugar, £300,000, which is to a great extent being met by making caterers and manufacturers pay more for sugar than they had been paying since the Supplementary Budget was brought in. That is, if you like, putting a tax on caterers and manufacturers, but again I do not see that any charge could be made against the Fianna Fáil Government of extravagance in not collecting that £300,000 because that is all it amounts to there.

Farmers' butter is the next item— £155,000—and this is an item which requires more consideration than the actual financing. The fourth item is oatmeal and margarine. We had provided a subsidy on oatmeal and margarine and the Minister for Finance removes that subsidy.

And you were letting the butter go bad.

The result is that margarine is now 4d. per lb. dearer. I do not know what Deputy O'Leary's interruption is, but will Deputy O'Leary go to the people of Enniscorthy and tell them that he voted for this 4d. per lb. extra on margarine?

We do not want to give them margarine; we want to give them butter.

Tell them that, that you do not want them to eat any more margarine.

Who gets a pound of margarine?

I am saying that the price has been increased by so much per lb. The Minister has interrupted in a very intelligent way just to make a debating point by asking: "Who gets a pound?" In time, every consumer gets a pound and, anyway, he will have to pay this 4d. per lb. extra. The effect of the Budget is to save £195,000 on margarine and oatmeal, and the only way in which it can be saved is by making the consumers of oatmeal and margarine pay that £195,000. So there you have the Minister coming in to clean-up extravagant government and the way he cleans it up is by saying to the consumer: "I shall give you cheaper beer and tobacco, but you will pay more for oatmeal and margarine." Deputy O'Leary comes in here and defends that.

He did something for the old age pensioners too, which you did not.

We shall come to that. Farmers' butter is to be decontrolled, and as a result of that decontrol the Minister is going to save £155,000. The Minister for Finance is a very sensible man and he knows as well as I do that the only way that £155,000 can be saved to the Exchequer is by the farmer getting less for his butter or the consumer paying more for it. It must be one or the other. It is hard to say which way it will be before the year is out. At the present time the farmer is getting less, but later on he will, perhaps, get more. At any rate, one thing is certain—either the farmer or the consumer will make up that £155,000. Again we have the Minister, who came in with the support of four or five Parties who are going to clean up the mess which Fianna Fáil had left, proposing to save £155,000 by cutting the farmer in the price of his butter or, alternatively, making the consumer pay more for farmers' butter.

What I want to know is this. Take this item of £500,000 which would be contributed for the remainder of this year by the Exchequer, as matters stood, for increased benefits for the unemployed and for sickness benefits under national health insurance. About half way during the financial year, I take it, that is going to be put over on the backs of the contributors. Employers and employees will pay an increased contribution. Against that, later on in the Budget comes this provision of £600,000 for increased old age pensions and increased widows' and orphans' pensions. If we had left £450,000 in the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Fund, there should be sufficient there to meet the increase in the widows' and orphans' pensions, but I am sure that it would not look so well for Deputy O'Leary or others like him if the Minister had merely said that the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Fund was in a position to bear the cost of increased benefits. It looked better in the Budget and it was better for the members of the Parties who support the Government to be able to go to the people and say: "They have given an increase in the widows' and orphans' pensions and old age pensions." It would not look so well if they had to say that the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Fund had increased so well under the Fianna Fáil Government that they could now give better terms to widows and orphans. That is what could have been done without shifting the money out of the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Fund into the Exchequer and then saying: "We will give an increase to the widows and orphans." To some extent, the same remarks apply to old age pensions, because the £450,000 and the £500,000 make £950,000, which you take from social services and in return the Minister pays £600,000 for increased widows' and orphans' pensions.

If you had done that, you would not be over there.

Deputy O'Leary has a very short memory. Last year Fianna Fáil in their Budget voted £2,000,000 —not £600,000, but a little over £2,000,000—for increased benefits for widows and orphans, old age pensioners, for sickness benefits and unemployment. Deputy O'Leary and his Party told their followers that they had to vote against Fianna Fáil because Fianna Fáil were doing nothing for social services. That was National Labour's excuse, but now the Deputy votes for a Budget which makes this magnificent gesture of £600,000 and casts aside the Government which gave £2,000,000. It is very ingenious mathematics on the Deputy's part, but that is the step he is taking. We are told that this sum of £600,000 is to provide increased benefits for widows, orphans and old age pensioners, in some cases, 2/6 and, in others, 5/-. We are not given very much detail, but I think that was in the statement. I suppose we may presume that, where an old age pensioner has 15/- at the moment, he will get 2/6 and, where he has 12/6 at the moment, he will get 5/-, because the Minister said that in no case would the pension exceed 17/6. At the same time, there is to be an alteration in the means test. If pensions are to be raised on that basis—old age pensioners with 15/- to get 17/6 and those with 12/6 to get 17/6 and widows' pensions increased at the same rate—and the means test is to be altered, I do not think that in a full year it could cost less than about £2,000,000.

It would be a bit more.

Probably more, so that it is hard to understand the explanation of this £600,000. Either I am wrong in assuming that the benefits will be as good as that or the idea is that they will not come into operation until towards the end of the financial year. What is the excuse for not bringing them in sooner? There may be the excuse that we have not got the money, but, if that is so, we should be told. The excuse given is that it takes some time to get out new books and print new forms, but that does not hold water. Last year, the Department of Social Services was set up on 22nd January, and, when I took charge of it, I put a proposal to the Government that we should increase old age and widows' and orphans' pensions, sickness benefit, unemployment benefit, and so on. We were able to bring the scheme of increases into operation on 1st April. We were up against difficulties with regard to stamps, books and forms, but we got over them and I believe that the difficulties could be got over in this case just as well. These technical difficulties can be got over, but there are much bigger difficulties than the technical difficulties.

The difficulty, I believe, is finance, and the Minister has persuaded the members of the other Parties supporting him that he cannot bring this in until he has had time to print all these books and stamps, get out the forms, and investigate a whole lot of cases. When all that is done, the scheme will come into operation and then most of the financial year will be gone and it will not cost so very much in this financial year. We were told in the Budget statement that those who come within the national health and unemployment insurance scheme are to pay increased contributions. The Minister said that we should all agree that, with the substantial increase in wages and the subsidies on food—not forgetting the cheaper beer and tobacco—the worker is now in a position to pay the increased contribution and it is assumed that the employer is also in a position to do so. Again I wonder do the members of the Labour Party, including Deputy O'Leary, agree with that. Do they agree that the worker, since this Government came into office, is in a position to pay this increased contribution—that, in other words, he has money to spare—because, if they do agree, it is very hard to understand some of their speeches during the election? There has been no substantial change in wages, so far as I know, since February.

They got an 11/- increase.

Who did?

Most of the workers got it.

Do not be openly dishonest.

Deputy Hickey goes on record as saying that most of the workers got an increase of 11/- since February.

Did the road workers get it?

You gave them 2d. a day.

They have not got the 11/- anyhow.

We can assess the value of Deputy Hickey's opinion on other matters by that statement—that most of the workers got 11/- increase since February.

Is it not right?

Does the Minister support Deputy Hickey?

I think he is right.

Will the Minister go on record as saying that most of the workers got 11/- increase since last February?

A lot of them have got it.

Deputy Hickey says that most of them got it.

I believe that most of them did, but I have not got the figures.

Surely the Minister is not allowing Deputy Hickey to "cod" him.

I am speaking from my own information and I think he is right.

It is no harm that Deputy Hickey and the Minister should go on record as saying that, in their opinion, most of the workers got this increase of 11/- since February. We will see what the workers think of that, but I want to know what about the workers who did not get the 11/-.

They are under discussion, too.

And they will be well able to pay this increased contribution?

Last October the then Taoiseach said that, if we looked for increases, he would peg down wages.

The point is that they will be well able to pay this increased contribution.

It is only a few penoe, anyway.

So we have members of the National Labour Party enthusiastically in favour of putting this extra few pence on the workers, because they are well able to pay it.

You have been misrepresenting us long enough. Do not try it again now.

Tell that to the Congress of Irish Unions.

The Deputy says I am trying to misrepresent him. I merely wanted to get his view.

Has the Deputy any view as to the amount of the contribution which will have to be paid?

In respect of this particular item—the increased amount for national health and unemployment insurance—I do not think it will be very heavy. The big item, as the Minister knows, will arise if we are to have contributory old age pensions, in which case the contribution will be very heavy.

I have not taken any account of that.

I know. I am saying that in regard to this particular item it will not be very heavy.

A couple of pence a week is what has been stated. Does the Deputy agree?

It will be more than that.

That is a matter for the Minister to tell us.

Threepence per week.

From the worker alone?

In my opinion, it will be more, but I may be wrong.

How much more?

It might be 5d.

I am making only a very quick calculation, standing up.

Making a quick calculation, I say about 3d.

Very well. There is still another class. I refer to the farmers. One of the main difficulties I had in trying to work out a comprehensive insurance scheme was in relation to the people who would be called upon to pay the contributions. One contributor is the worker. If the worker is well paid and if the members of the Labour Party say that he can easily afford to pay it I am quite satisfied. I go no further than that.

We have not said that.

But when it comes to the employer paying his share of the contribution a problem arises there because you have two classes of employers. You have, first of all, the class of employer who is in a position to pass on his share of the contribution to the consuming public by putting up the price of his goods. His contribution becomes part of his costings. The other class of employer is the person who is unable to pass on his contribution. It is a big class embracing the entire farming community.

The farmer is not in a position to tell his consuming public that he is going to put up the price of his agricultural produce because his contribution has been increased. He has to sell his cattle in the open market. He has to sell his butter, wheat and beet at a fixed price under Government control. It is not within his power to increase his costs in order to cover increased contributions. I cannot speak for farmers all over the country, but I do know that the farmers in my constituency always bear the full contribution for national health. They pay both the employers' and the employees' part of it. I do not know whether the Minister intends to bring in the agricultural labourer under the unemployment scheme or not. If he does the farmer will have to pay on the double as compared with other employers. He will be in a particularly hard plight as compared with other employers.

I come now to the production of farmers' butter. There is more in this matter here than a financial consideration of £155,000. Taking, first of all, the financial consideration into account, at this time last year farmers sold their butter at 2/11 per pound on the fresh butter market. The butter was actually sold at 2/8 and a subsidy was then paid to the buyer who bought from the farmer. That is, the wholesale butter merchants got a subsidy on that butter which enabled them to process it and resell it to the consumer at 2/8 per pound. I do not know how the market stands at the present moment in the country generally, but I do know that in County Wexford the farmers are getting 2/3 per pound. Last year they got 2/11. It is not likely that the price will reach 2/11 in the months of May and June, and it is during those two months that 75 per cent. of the year's output is produced. It is possible that the price will be somewhat better later on but the output will be lower and the increased price will therefore have no compensating effect. It is not much use speculating as to what may happen in the months to come. At the moment the farmers' prices are lower though wages have increased. Wages have increased by 5/- per week since last February. The farmer has to pay higher rates this year. He has got no compensating increase for his produce to meet those increased wages and his increased rates either as regards wheat, beet or milk. He is now in the position that he is going to get less for his butter. I do not think any Clann na Talmhan Deputy would say that the farmer was well off prior to last February. Certainly I have not seen any such statement quoted either in the Press or in this House. But those Deputies are now supporting a measure which goes to show that the farmer was too well off—that he was able to pay an increased wage and increased rates while at the same time taking less for his butter.

The farmer will never forget the time when you were Minister for Agriculture.

Evidently the members of the Clann na Talmhan Party believe that the farmer can afford all these things. If they did not believe it, being honest men, they would not stand for it. Will they go back to their constituents now and say to them: "Now, we know that you were well off in February and prior to February, and up to the time the last Government went out of office; we know that you can afford to pay increased wages and take less for your butter; we are standing over that." That is what the Clann na Talmhan Party stands for here at this moment and they evidently do not think that they are doing the farmer any serious injury. However, if they are satisfied that is all right. I am glad that they are satisfied.

You promised them a good lot yourself, too, at the general election.

The Deputy was not very far behind me.

You were the Minister, though.

That is quite true.

But you did nothing.

There is that difference, too. There are many members of the Fine Gael Party who are themselves active farmers and there are many members of the Fine Gael Party who talk as if they represented the farmers of this country. Are they satisfied that the farmer was in such a prosperous position before last February that he could afford this increased wage and this increased rate and, at the same time, take less for his butter? I may be told that butter will go up in price later on. Perhaps it will. It will probably go up in price when it gets scarcer. But the farmer will have produced 75 per cent. of his butter in this month and in June and he will never compensate himself for the loss he sustains now by reason of the lower price. If he gets more towards the end of the year it is the consumer who will be mulcted.

Another danger enters there, because of the differentiation between the price paid to the supplier who goes to the creamery with his milk and the farmer who makes butter at home. Our endeavour should be to keep values as close as possible. It is a bad thing to have them changing from one to the other. If farmers' butter goes up in August and September the farmers will make the butter at home in order to avail of the increased price rather than supply milk to the creameries. From the point of view of the creamery that is bound to have a bad effect on costings. It will also have a bad effect from the point of view of the storage of butter for consumption during the winter months. My opinion is that the sensible thing to do is to subsidise the two so as to make them as close as possible in value.

I think the Minister for Finance was very unwise in adopting this course of saving £155,000 on farmers' butter, decontrolling it and letting it take its own course. Nearly half the cows are owned by farmers who make farmers' butter. A little more than half the cows are owned by farmers who go to creameries. If we look at the cattle position, nearly half the cattle are produced by farmers who make farmers' butter and more than half are reared by farmers who make butter. It was a common thing for creamery suppliers to sell their calves and they were bought by men who made farmers' butter. If the farmer who is making butter is discouraged by bad or changing prices, that may be the last straw that will help to put him out of production. We will have fewer cows, fewer calves and this change with regard to farmers' butter may have very serious repercussions that have not been foreseen.

I think the Minister should consider this matter again with regard to farmers' butter, not from the budgetary point of view but from the general economic point of view. He should consider the consequences that may follow the changing of butter prices and especially the change in the farmers' butter price in relation to the price of milk going to the creamery.

What was the objective in giving the subsidy on farmers' butter?

The objective was more economic than budgetary. It was to try to keep the farmer fixed in his production and not exasperate him to the point where he might go out of cows.

Was not the object to reduce the price of farmers' butter to the consumer?

Yes. The object first of all was to reduce the price of creamery butter to the consumer, and it was more of an economic consideration that made us follow suit with farmers' butter so that the two would be kept on a level. Although nearly half the cows are owned by men who make farmers' butter, there is by no means as much farmers' butter sold as creamery butter. A great number of farmers make butter for their own consumption. A very much bigger proportion of farmers' butter is consumed in the house than is sold. It is the opposite with creamery butter.

It might be better if the farmers made less butter and reared more calves.

I do not quite agree with the Deputy there. You must encourage the farmer to keep cows and one important encouragement to many farmers is the price they get for the butter. That encourages them to keep cows. There are Deputies who speak for the farmers more than for any other class and they are in the Clann na Talmhan and Fine Gael Parties. I want them to consider the Budget from the point of view of the farmer. He has got nothing out of it, but he will have to suffer a certain loss. I want Deputies who purport to speak for farmers here to be clear when they are voting for this Budget that they are really expressing an opinion in no uncertain terms that the farmer was more prosperous than he really needed to be when this Government came into power; that is, if he is able to bear the knocks he got since. That is the assumption, that these Deputies believe he can bear these knocks if they vote for the Budget.

So far as the Deputies who represent Labour are concerned, I want to know what the workers have got out of this Budget. Do National Labour Deputies who were so keen on social services think they have done well in supporting a Government that deducted £950,000 from social services and put back only £600,000? If they think that is doing more for social services, I have no doubt they will vote with the Government. They will vote with them in any case, I suppose, and try to explain it as best they can afterwards. Clann na Poblachta had the cost of living as a big plea at the election. They were to decrease it by 30 per cent. Now they will vote for an increase in the price of oatmeal and margarine. The only reduction in the cost of living is in relation to wines.

What about beer and tobacco?

I would like to see the Minister trying to live on tobacco.

£6,000,000.

The sum total is this: he has cheaper beer, cheaper tobacco, cheaper wines, but as far as food is concerned many items have gone up since the election. I do not know of any food that has come down. The members of Clann na Poblachta may see further than we can and they may see a 30 per cent. reduction in the cost of living by sticking to the Fine Gael Party. They should enlighten us as to when we may expect the reduction.

I referred at the start to Deputy Esmonde, who talked about big reductions in taxation. I am sorry I cannot live up to the Deputy's expectations of a member of the Opposition. I cannot praise the Budget. I think it is a deceptive Budget; it is there to deceive not only the members of the various Parties who support Fine Gael in this Government but also the followers of those Parties down through the country.

One Fianna Fáil Deputy spoke on behalf of the agricultural community in particular. I claim the honour and the privilege of speaking on behalf of the agricultural community, the road workers and the small business people of South Cork, and on their behalf I wish to thank the Minister for Finance for the consideration which he has given to the old age pensioners and the widows and orphans in providing them with increased benefits. There is no need for me to go into many details as Deputy Larkin has already covered so many of them from the point of view of the Labour Party, but there are a few points to which I would like to draw attention.

The first point is in regard to the agricultural position and I realise that we will have the opportunity of discussing it on another occasion so I will leave that aside.

A point, however, to which I would like to draw attention is the possibility of greater wealth and greater employment in this country if the Government will concentrate on a proper scheme of reafforestation. I will admit that the Fianna Fáil Government did a certain amount in connection with reafforestation. I do not wish to go into the past, but it is only fair for everyone to say that what the Fianna Fáil Government did in connection with reafforestation was but a very, very small amount of what should have been done in connection with this work. In rural Ireland there are thousands of people looking for work year after year. Deputies in the Opposition and one Deputy in particular mentioned the fact that it was a good job that rural workers in the west of Ireland can emigrate. Why should they emigrate when we could be in a position to give them employment in their own country?

In other countries reafforestation is carried out by somewhat different methods. During the war period a large amount of timber was cut in this country but so different was the replanting in comparison with the methods adopted in other countries that here when the timber was cut the roots were left in the ground; young saplings were planted next to them and they will never come to proper maturity. Any wealth for the country which we might hope for, such as timber capable of being used for industrial purposes, was lost. That was scabbing, putting an end to the land at cheap rates and not even hoping for advantageous results.

Another point to which I would like to draw attention is the question of fishery. I come from a seaboard area and I realise the enormous potentialities of this industry. I say in all earnestness that we have failed in this country to realise first of all the wealth which could be taken from the sea and, secondly, the responsibility which we owe to the people in the seaboard area. If we concentrate on providing employment by means of reafforestation and drainage in the inland areas it will not be sufficient, as you have people born and reared facing the broad Atlantic whose way of life must of necessity be somewhat different. The people are very willing in the south and west of Ireland to face the dangers which are necessary in the occupation of fishing while we are satisfied to see the trawlers of foreign countries coming within three miles of our shore and at times further in and we do not give facilities for our own nationals. They will have to depend on inland fisheries. Can you not realise in discussing the Budget, not for this year but for years to come, that while some Deputies may speak here of home assistance or unemployment assistance, it is within our power to give employment and a decent Christian standard of wage? We are forgetting the fact that thousands of people are necessarily dependent on miserable allowances from the State. They were born as true Irishmen and let us, as Irishmen, realise our responsibilities towards them.

Fianna Fáil Deputies, perhaps in earnestness, drew attention to the removal of the subsidy on margarine. May I ask these Deputies why did they for one moment base the diet in the homes of the workers on margarine? In an agricultural country, surely our ambition should be to provide these people with butter, not with margarine. Last year we had the degrading sight in Cork City of thousands of lbs. of butter rotting in the stores, simply because they were put there at a time when the people could have done with more butter so that they would use margarine.

The hand-won turf scheme was mentioned. Last year the Cork County Council received instructions from the Department in Dublin stating that we were to hand over the bogs to Bord na Móna, and if the county council continued to produce hand-won turf any losses incurred would have to be met through the rates. That proved that Fianna Fáil were the instigators of doing away with hand-won turf.

Other points were raised by Deputies in connection with this Budget. One Deputy of the Fianna Fáil Party mentioned the question of wages. I may say, a Chinn Comhairle, that it gives me no pleasure to be sarcastic towards any man, but I say that a Deputy who was formerly a Minister had the audacity of being generous to the roadworkers to the extent of twopence. He was so generous, so lovingly generous, that he gave them £2 5s. a week.

How much are they getting now?

They are getting £2 11s. a week and in some parts they are getting £2 14s., thanks be to God. I will say in all fairness to the Fianna Fáil Deputies from Cork that they did their share and supported us in our demand for an increase for the roadworkers, but when we asked for an increase of 10/- a week for these men we had to be satisfied with 2d.

The present Minister for Local Government has not given them 10/- either and yet you are supporting him.

At the first attempt he gave 6/- while Deputy MacEntee gave 2d. One Deputy cannot realise still why the Labour Party could not support Fianna Fáil. Could we be expected to support the policy and the man who degraded the workers in Cork by giving them 2d.? We will work in with any Party who supports us in our demand for a true Christian living for the workers in the rural areas. If the inter-Party Government supports our ideals we will work with them, even if this Budget is only one step towards our goal.

My last remarks are that Deputy Little mentioned the short-wave broadcasting system. If we were to go on with the short-wave radio station what were we to tell people in other countries on our new wave-length? Were we to tell them that in 1948 we, a socalled Christian country, once known as "the Island of Saints and Scholars", have a degrading means test; that in rural Ireland, in Cork County, widows get a few miserable shillings a week to support themselves and their children; that old age pensioners, having given 70 years' service to the community, have to be satisfied with a few miserable shillings a week? On the other hand, were we to show our grandeur, were we to tell the people in other countries that here in Ireland, in 1948, we have luxury hotels wherein are welcomed people from God knows where, that people are welcomed there in connection with whom one day we may have to admit that their coming was a sad thing? Remember, it will depend on the standard of some of our socalled luxury hotels. I am not for one moment suggesting that when Fianna Fáil let this thing go through, they meant harm, but the harm is being done in rural Ireland as well as in the City of Dublin. Let us face our responsibilities. Again I thank the Minister for even one step forward. It is at least one step to show the people in rural Ireland that there is some consideration being given to their claims for justice.

The Deputy is grateful to the Minister for Finance for raising the price of oatmeal and telling the workers they have enough.

And margarine. Do you eat margarine?

I welcome this Budget. I think the Minister has done a very fine piece of work. Following on the years of very heavy taxation and what I will call squandermania in many ways, he has had a very difficult task. He has had to balance a Budget based largely on the estimates of his predecessor. I think Deputy Lemass was the first member of the Opposition to start the hare that this inter-Party Government had reduced the tax on wines and that that was the only contribution to the cost of living. That is one of those dishonest half-truths. The Minister for Finance reduced the tax on wines in order to increase revenue from wines. The previous Government, in their foolishness, or anything you like to call it, had so increased the tax on wines that sales had fallen off to such a degree that there was less revenue from it. The sole reason for the reduction in the tax on wines in this Budget is to procure more money for expenditure on the more necessary articles which the citizens of this State use for productive enterprise. It was to raise more money and for no other purpose that the tax was reduced. Deputy Lemass and Deputy Ryan have heard and read of the law of diminishing returns, which is well known to every economist. That is what had set in in connection with luxury wines. The tax had been increased to such an extent that the return had diminished. Deputy Lemass's argument is one of those arguments which people use in politics but which are inherently dishonest and incorrect.

Deputy Little waxed very wroth yesterday about the closing down on the plans for a new short-wave station. He referred to cultural relations and the necessity to have a short-wave station in order that when we might have strained relations with other countries we could broadcast our point of view to the world. I suppose we do live in an age of propaganda but, thank God, this country so far has never got into the mad racial propaganda which many countries have carried on for a number of years. We would be very foolish to indulge in that type of propaganda. By all means let us broadcast our ordinary programmes but let us see that they are of such a high standard that the world will be anxious to listen to them. A short-wave powerful station built primarily for the purpose of putting across a point of view in some vague and uncertain future is not the best way in which to approach the cultural element of broadcasting. This country has always prided itself on its culture. Anything of a cultural value will be listened to by the people outside on account of the value and the interest of the point of view put forward, not because it is put across from a very powerful station. I consider that the Minister displayed his good sense in closing down on that scheme. If in future we have the money to indulge in what I regard as the luxury of a powerful short-wave station, by all means let us have it, but the argument that we need it because we might have strained relations with other countries seems futile to me and unworthy of this country. We can put forward and always have succeeded in putting forward any point of view we want to express by the ordinary legitimate methods and channels.

If the Taoiseach had had a short-wave station on St. Patrick's Day would it have been useful?

What about the B.B.C.'s broadcast of the Taoiseach's speech on St. Patrick's Day?

Was that done on the short-wave station?

No, it was not.

Why do you want a short-wave station?

We do not want our messages sub-edited by the British, do we?

We do not want a dumb station.

I wonder did the idea to start a short-wave station originate when a certain person who was very important in this country was turned down when he wanted to broadcast over the American network system?

It might have. He wanted to broadcast to the American people the position of Ireland.

I think it could have gone out through the ordinary Press. I was rather sorry to see in this Budget that the 5 per cent. tax on the purchase of houses was not remitted. I know that a pretty large revenue is derived from that source and as a short-term measure, to prevent speculation in houses, it has a good deal to recommend it but, as a long-term proposition for the purpose of raising revenue, I would be against it because it vitally affects young people, places a heavy burden upon them at a time when they are least able to afford it. I do not know what is the proportion of houses that is purchased by young people but it must be fairly high and certainly, at that stage, when they are buying furniture, they find the extra 5 per cent. a heavy burden. For that reason, I hope that when all danger of speculation in houses has passed the Minister will seriously consider remitting that tax.

In connection with taxation generally, there is one matter I would like to bring to the notice of the Minister and of this House, namely, the question of co-operative societies. We in this country live under a system of private enterprise. I think everybody is delighted to see the co-operative system spreading and expanding. It has the same right to exist as has any other method of doing business. Under the present system of taxation, however, co-operative societies are placed in a much more favourable position than firms who operate under private enterprise. The co-operative businesses are virtually tax-free, compared with private companies and limited liability companies. That means, in effect, that the State loses the revenue on the business done by those societies, since if that trade were carried on by a private firm a very much greater tax would be raised by the State. Under the term private business I include public companies. These people are in a very adverse position vis-a-vis co-operative societies. At some time in this country, as in all countries, that position will have to be studied fairly and calmly, if not on the basis of fairness to private enterprise then, perhaps, on the basis of the loss of revenue which the Exchequer suffers.

Fianna Fáil Deputies who talked about the luxury wines are just indulging in a foolish type of propaganda which the people will be able to assess at its true value. In very difficult circumstances and in a very short space of time, the Minister has produced an admirable Budget and has succeeded in arresting the mounting scale of expenditure, which the business community and citizens in general thought was never going to end. For years and years, the Budget has been growing bigger and bigger. Now, at last, we see signs of an end.

Does the Deputy think it is smaller than last year?

It is still bigger, of course.

The Minister has reduced it on the original Estimates which were prepared by the Deputy's Government when they were in office. Heaven knows what it would be if we had the Fianna Fáil Party in power at the present moment.

Much less, perhaps.

Certainly not, on the basis of the Estimates.

The Deputy does not know.

They are not Estimates of the Fine Gael Party or of any other Party making up this inter-Party Government. They are the Estimates prepared by the Fianna Fáil Party and on that basis the Minister has done a very fine piece of work, in arresting this ever-mounting scale of expenditure; and I congratulate him very sincerely on the work he has done.

The point which strikes me most in this Budget is its complete failure to implement the promises made by the political Parties opposite in the election campaign— promises to reduce taxation and to increase the social services. In fact, the speeches of the Parties comprising the Coalition Government are but an apologia for their attitude in regard to this Budget, an apologia for their support of principles altogether opposed to those to which they gave expression throughout the country.

The Minister for Finance is faced this year with an estimated cost of £77,329,000; his receipts from all sources will amount to £68,598,000; leaving him faced with a deficit of £8,731,000. He proposes to make good this deficit by various economies—by the withdrawal of food subsidies, by increasing the tax on petrol and oils and by an increase in income-tax. The steps whereby he proposes to bridge the gap are about to be taken without due regard to the fact that the greatest burden of economy and retrenchment will fall on the people least able to bear it —the worker, the small uneconomic holder and the housewife. The savings effected through the killing of the hand-won turf industry are made at the cost of the disemployment of some 17,000 turf workers, who through the emergency years and since have made a substantial living turning out the fuel requirements of our people.

It is intended to relieve the distress amongst those displaced turf workers by initiating relief schemes, such as drainage and road works. These, to say the most of them, are but a poor substitute, in so far as they are of a very temporary nature and their production is very much short of what the turf industry produced for those people engaged in it. We all know that not one-half of those engaged in the turf industry can benefit by these relief schemes. Most of such workers are smallholders in the counties from Cork to Donegal, who worked the bogs on their holdings in conjunction with their small farming and with the help of their womenfolk and their children. For the first time in the history of those counties they had some kind of decent existence. Alternative employment is not to be provided, and cannot be provided, for them. At one stroke, the Government has relegated those people to the precarious and miserable existence to which they were committed by Cromwell when he sent them "to hell or to Connaught" some 300 years ago. Furthermore, this decision of the Government does not help the unemployment question and emigration, that menace of our population, which all Parties of the Coalition were unanimous could and should be stopped, has got a mighty push forward.

It is apparent, too, from the Estimate for the Department of Defence that unemployment will be increased and that the emigrant ship is the only prospect for a good many more. The Army is about to be reduced or, if not reduced, it will not be increased. The position is that for a doubtful saving of £750,000 the defence and safety of the country are jeopardised. One wonders why the present Government continues the policy of having an army at all. Why not save the Estimate for the Army by scrapping the Army, the reserve and the Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil and, instead, augment the Garda force, which could do equally well the job that is now meant for our fighting force? A sum of £750,000 is the difference between our Army and an army which could be readily expanded into an effective force. I might remind the Government that their announcements and plan in regard to the Army do not tend greatly towards the solution of Partition. It will not be in the interests of Great Britain or of the United States to have a defenceless island in the Atlantic falling into the hands of an enemy. While Great Britain and the United States may not be prepared to resort to an act of aggression against an ostensibly friendly country and invade it they would be very glad to have the Six Counties wherein to maintain an effective force to counteract the possibility of this country's falling into enemy hands. That would be a good argument for Great Britain for the maintenance of our country.

Is the Deputy making a case for Partition?

That is what it sounds like.

I am making the point that you are giving an argument to Great Britain for the maintenance of Partition. Even at this late stage I would appeal to the Minister to do what every country, small and large, in the world to-day is doing, namely, to make provision for an effective fighting force and not to continue to risk the safety of the nation for the sake of a doubtful economy of £750,000.

Whom are you going to fight?

We are not going to fight anybody. We are just going to defend our country.

A Deputy

You will have to fight to do that.

We would not be able to fight with the present strength of our Army.

The axe has fallen also on the men on whom the whole economy of the nation depends—the farmers. Day after day we hear calls for increased production and, to the best of his ability, the farmer has responded to that call. The withdrawal of the subsidy on farmers' butter is not an incentive to produce more and to put it on the market at a price which margarine, an imitation of butter, will fetch. It will be said that the creamery is an alternative but it is not convenient for every farmer to avail of the creamery and for that reason the vast majority of the farmers producing butter do so. The withdrawal of this subsidy will have the effect of putting quite a lot of farmers out of production. The Minister must have been aware of that. The withdrawal of the subsidy tends very little to convince one that the demands for increased production are sincere.

The housewife, too, has to contribute her share towards the provision of this money for which the Minister is looking. She is called on to pay more for her margarine and her oatmeal so that her husband may have cheaper beer and cigarettes. The worker in the town and in the city who has to have his meals away from home will have the increased cost of tea and sugar passed on to him by the caterer while the increase in the tax on petrol and oils must inevitably lead to increased fares, which burden will fall heaviest on the person least able to bear it, namely, the wage-earner. All this must, of necessity, bring about a rise in the cost of living. I wonder how the Labour Deputies will react to that.

A Deputy

They have told you.

They are going to vote for it.

What about the treatment of the national school teachers under the Fianna Fáil administration?

There is no provision in this Budget for the national school teachers. The Minister intends to keep wages at a standstill. Let us hope that the Minister, in his efforts for economy, does not pursue his policy—in order to provide what he will require in addition to the £600,000 that he is promising to the old age pensioners— of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Let us hope that he will turn his attention to the people best able to bear the economy.

To me, this debate has the appearance of being a series of lectures from the different Front Bench members of the Fianna Fáil Party as to what the members of the different Parties who constitute the Government should or should not do when this Budget is to be decided on or when the Vote will be passed on it in a few hours' time. Deputy Lemass appealed to the Labour Party. He pointed out the poor concessions they were getting from this Budget and made a valiant effort to convince them that they were being robbed. The answer which Deputy Larkin gave him yesterday will convince him that his efforts were of no avail. Next, Deputy Boland made an appeal to the Clann na Poblachta Party which did not get anywhere. To-day, Deputy Dr. Ryan appealed to the members of this Party, asked us what we are going to do and if we stand for such and such a policy of the Minister for Finance. He wanted to know what we will do when this Budget will be decided. No doubt he has seen some of the slogans that were painted all over the country during the recent general election campaign—these slogans of "Put Them Out" which were painted big and broad. We participated, in our own little way, to the utmost of our capacity in doing so and, having put them out, we are determined that we are going to keep them out.

That is your policy— that is good.

I hope I will live to see the day when the entire crowd of them will disappear from the Opposition Benches out the back door and that they will never be seen in this House again.

A Deputy

You have no character.

To get back to the Budget we must, in fairness to every Minister for Finance in the world, admit that the financial affairs of their respective countries were of great concern to them last year, and are this year, and will be for the next few years. Budgets everywhere will take balancing and will require very careful economies on one side or another. In this country the present Minister for Finance was presented with a country in a state of chaos. It would have been in a state of financial collapse if his predecessor had had a few years more in office. We must congratulate the Minister for giving us a Budget which, if not exactly as all of us would like to see it, is at least satisfactory up to a point. He has made a very good job of trying to satisfy the community as a whole. I suppose the Minister would get great applause from the Opposition Party if he had found it necessary, in regard to the money that he brought into the Exchequer as a result of the economies he has made, to place the burden on different shoulders. He would have been applauded, I dare say, if he had found it necessary to reimpose the penal duty on beer and on tobacco which the Opposition Party imposed some six or eight months ago. One has only to read the organ of the Fianna Fáil Party, the Irish Press, which had a questionnaire for the past two or three months in regard to what the Minister for Industry and Commerce should do in connection with the price of tea.

A four-point questionnaire was put to its readers by the Irish Press. It was answered, of course, by many secretaries of Fianna Fáil clubs who pointed out that such-and-such a thing should be done. But the Minister has found it possible to increase the tea ration at the same price as it was to the private consumer and a higher price to hotel proprietors who will have to pay more for it now and who should be made to pay even more for it if the Minister did the right thing. The questionnaire in the Irish Press has got its answer and I daresay that is one of the reasons why the Fianna Fáil Party are so angry and offended with this Budget. This year, for the first time for quite a long period, we have decreases instead of increases in regard to certain items of expenditure and we have different types of economies produced. The most popular item of the Budget is the increase to old age pensioners.

It has not come yet. It is promised, but it will go into abeyance.

I do not know whether the Deputy spoke on a motion moved in this House by the present Minister for Defence and somebody else which proposed that any moneys coming to old age pensioners should not count against them in the means test. The Opposition Parties at that time backed up that motion and the Deputy, who was then Minister for Local Government, voted against that motion which was going to give a small benefit to old age pensioners. We are told that the increase has not yet been given. The confidence which the Fianna Fáil Party has placed in us must be wonderful when they expect that in two or three months we can do what they could not do in 16 years. They should not be in too much of a hurry.

We are only doing about your promises what experience teaches us to do.

The Government has only been in office a short time and, with the co-operation of the other members of the Cabinet, the Minister has set about doing a thing which is very essential and should have been done quite a long time ago. It might be a beneficial move if the extra money to be expended on old age pensions was spent on giving employment to younger people. But, when we look at the matter in a humane way, it is only fitting and right that a pension of 17/6 should be given to these old people. It is not now they should have got it, but six or eight years ago when the cost of living started to increase. We have been told by the Minister that the hare-brained schemes of Fianna Fáil are to be scrapped. The short-wave station is to be abolished. The Constellation aeroplanes, which Fianna Fáil could find so much money to finance in order to put this country on the map, are to be disposed of.

Do you know that the Minister has made a handsome profit on them?

That is one thing that I shall give the Fianna Fáil Party credit for. The Minister has made a handsome profit on their sale, but I daresay that the handsome profit will be offset by the handsome loss which will be incurred on the Vikings which will have to be sold in the near future and which were only junk, but which were bought at a top price by the Fianna Fáil Government. Taking everything into consideration, this Budget is a step in the right direction. It will prove to the people that this inter-Party Government are determined that the burden of taxation will be placed on the shoulders of those best able to bear it. It may not be the greatest Budget in the world. As I said, it may not be the Budget that some of us would like to see, a Budget which would completely wipe out pensions for ex-Ministers and bring Deputies' and Senators' salaries down to something which this country can afford——

Why not do it?

——and, above all, dispense with Arus an Uachtarán which is costing the country £52,000 per year.

There are six or seven of you in that Party and why do you not do it? You hold the Government in your hands.

We are so busy exterminating Fianna Fáil that our time will be taken up perhaps for another six or eight months.

A Deputy

The same as you did with the turf workers in Mayo.

When the ex-Minister in 1945 came to County Mayo with £5,000 of the people's money in the Fianna Fáil bag, he left it a good deal faster than he came and, if he wishes to come there again and try another fight, he will leave it even faster still. It is a great thing that the Minister, by close economy, has effected a saving in expenditure. Owing to the habit of his predecessor of imposing an eversoaring burden of taxation, it was difficult for anybody to deal with the state of chaos which had been handed over to him and to try to put this country on a firm footing again. The Minister is setting about it in a manner which deserves every credit and every help from the different Parties who form the Government.

One of the proposals which I appreciate particularly is increasing the interest for depositors in the Post Office Savings Bank. When the Minister's predecessor was starting his economies he found it necessary to reduce the interest from 2½ to 2 per cent. I wonder if the Fianna Fáil Party realise that nine-tenths of the savings of the poorer section of the community are deposited in the Post Office Savings Bank. I think it was very wrong that the previous Minister for Finance should have looked for an economy there, and I congratulate the present Minister on restoring the original interest, even though it means only one-half of 1 per cent.

We have heard a lot about wines and how happy the people will be that they can have more wine, more beer and more tobacco. When the Fianna Fáil Party increased the duty on these items they showed that they did not realise the best method of getting revenue for the State. Immediately these duties were increased, the consumption decreased and the Exchequer found itself with less revenue than when the duties were at a lower rate. The Minister for Finance has now decided that, as well as having increased consumption of these things, there will follow from that an increase of revenue which will help to give more employment. I have met plenty of people, such as bar tenders and others, who by reason of the increases imposed under the Supplementary Budget lost their employment. I do not think that, as result of the proposals in this Budget, people are going to go mad drinking wines, etc., to the extent that the Fianna Fáil Party would like. I believe the people will carry on normally as they have been doing for years. They will go about their business in the usual way, and will drink the amount of wine, etc., which they have been accustomed to drink in the past, thereby bringing more money into the Exchequer than was coming into it over the past six or eight months.

As regards the reduction in the Army Vote, it seems to have aroused a great wave of sympathy from the Party opposite. I remember that when the Minister for Finance was replying to the Deputies opposite on the Vote on Account he said that he did not know exactly what was the exact cost of the corvettes purchased from England. He said something to the effect that the cost was far too much. I wish the Minister could live up to that statement and could make sure that the money which was spent on these corvettes—I heard them described in this House as India-rubber ducks—would be spent on increasing our agricultural output which is our main source of wealth.

The Deputy ought to talk that over with Deputy Desmond.

It is a grand thing that the members of the Party opposite, who used to be so dumb, have got the use of their tongues and are now inclined to speak in this House. Heretofore, if a Fianna Fáil back bencher felt inclined to make any little criticism of the Government which he knew was extravagant—we all realise, of course, that it was a three-man Government—he was thoroughly silenced at a Party caucus meeting. He was not allowed to open his mouth. At least members of that Party never opened their mouths here. Now we can claim that we have given them the freedom of their tongues. They can say something and no one will take any heed of it, no matter what they say.

I do not claim to be a financial wizard or to be capable of making any great suggestions which would help the Minister for Finance in bringing about any other reductions in taxation. As far as our Party is concerned, we are wholeheartedly behind the Minister in the effort that he is making to reduce taxation and to place taxation on the proper shoulders. It is not the amount of taxation that really counts but rather the distribution of it. Nobody on this or the other side of the House would complain if we were budgeting for £100,000,000 provided there was an equitable distribution of it, and that the money was ploughed back again into the pockets of the taxpayers. Everybody knows that the standard of living and the cost of living have increased considerably within recent years, and that the people are willing to pay more to keep up an increased standard of living. We should budget, therefore, to encourage rather than to retard progress, but at the same time we should definitely cut our cloth according to our measure.

For the first time in 15 or 16 years the people have been taught that this is not an empire but rather a small island with a population of about 3,000,000 people. We all know that agriculture is our one real source of wealth, and that the people will be asked to pay only the amount of taxation that they are capable of paying.

We have been hearing great wails of woe about the turf workers. During the past four or five years whenever Fianna Fáil Deputies were pinned in a tight corner they always started to tell us about the war or what the Government were doing for the poor. Now, they have got out of that corner and retreated to the bog hole to talk about the turf workers. The turf workers are definitely the only section of the people who have come badly out of this Budget. The number involved has been greatly exaggerated. It has grown by 2,000 within the last week or so. One Deputy opposite put the figure at 15,000, but when he stood up a few moments ago it had grown to 17,000. In the County Mayo where there has been the biggest disemployment of turf workers in any area in the country we were told not very long ago at a meeting of the county council that a Government grant or a contribution of £24,000 or £25,000 would give better and more productive employment to these turf workers.

Is the county council giving anything?

Those turf workers are mostly small farmers and small farmers' sons who have very few friends amongst the Fianna Fáil Party except when they want to use them for political propaganda or play Party politics out of them. I am as much interested in small farmers and small farmers' sons as anybody could be because they belong to the class that I have sprung from myself. I have more sympathy with them than those who pay lip service to them. I have a genuine sympathy for them—more so than those on the opposite side who try to pretend that they are their friends.

We all know perfectly well that the turf schemes were going to be abolished anyhow. If turf production was to be kept going in this country the way to do it was to keep foreign coal out. We all know, however, that there was a clamour amongst the people for foreign coal because they did not believe in turf. They were fed up with turf, and that was the real start of the disemployment of turf workers. The problem, therefore, which confronts this Government is to provide them with alternative employment. During the last week in my own county a county council lorry, after doing a tour of almost 25 miles through it, failed to collect more than three or four men to take employment on a Bord na Móna scheme in the county. That shows how the members of the Party opposite have been playing politics with this question of the turf workers simply because they had very little else to talk about. They will have less to talk about in the months ahead.

In my opinion the Minister for Finance is setting out on the right lines. No man can say that this Budget is going to benefit any one of the groups which form this Government. One Department that will benefit by it is that of Social Welfare, the Minister of which is the leader of the Labour Party. The Department which, I think, will benefit least is the Department of Lands, of which a member of this Party is the Minister.

I would much prefer to see a few million pounds provided in the Budget to relieve the problem which exists all along the western seaboard, particularly in County Mayo, and which will remain there until some Government takes some bold measures to solve it— that is, the problem of congestion and of small farms. So far as I am concerned, I do not think that sufficient money has been allocated under the Budget for the Department of Lands to enable it to bring any sort of immediate relief to the people affected in the next year. When the proper time comes I shall certainly do my utmost to ensure that these people will be accorded the rights and concessions to which they are entitled because, at present, they seem to be nobody's children.

Why not press for them now?

Rome was not built in a day.

After all, there were 16 years during which you were not a member of the House and during which, I suppose, as an outsider, you were helping to keep in those who were in. Eventually you came in yourself.

I did not steal in here, anyhow.

Deputies should address the Chair.

The Minister for Finance, having given us remissions of taxation to the extent of £6,500,000 this year, we do not want to throw an altogether overwhelming burden on his shoulders. To be candid, I prefer, if there is any immediate benefit to be given, that the people who have got benefits under this Budget should get them. In conclusion I shall repeat what was said before the French Revolution long ago: this is not the best Budget or it is not the worst Budget but when everything is taken into consideration, and when fair play is given to everybody, as it should be, this is a Budget which I think no other Deputy or no other Minister could present to the people and satisfy them in the manner in which they have been satisfied by this Budget. There is definite satisfaction all over the country that this is another step in the right direction. So far as we are concerned the right direction for the Irish people to take is to make sure that the Fianna Fáil Party will never again be entrusted with the government of this country.

In my contribution to this debate, I shall concern myself, not so much with the method in which the money collected is being expended, as with the incidence of taxation because it has occurred to me that Ministers for Finance, in general, find themselves in the position that they are not able to see the wood for the trees. They are presented with an annual bill; they go back I suppose on previous Budgets and they find themselves bound by precedents. I think that they are rather inclined to forget certain fundamental principles which, in my opinion, should be strictly adhered to in making out a Budget. I intend to speak generally on this Budget. I have no intention of taking it item by item, of either criticising or praising it, because I think that has been sufficiently done already from both sides of the House. I should like to say in passing that one's view of the Budget seems to be coloured by the side which one occupies in this House. That certainly does not coincide with my notion of the duties of a legislator who, in theory, should approach this matter with an open mind. While I am a loyal member of Clann na Poblachta, because I believe in its ideals, I am, nevertheless, going to retain my independence of thought and outlook. That is my approach to this Budget.

There are a few propositions which I think would be acceptable to everybody in this House. The first of these is that a desirable state of affairs would be one in which the cost of living is low. I do not want to be misunderstood in saying that. I do not want to be taken as stating, remembering the periods of depression which have followed the periods of boom that have been experienced in this country, that a period of depression is a desirable state of affairs but I do think if you could have a condition of affairs in which prices are at the lowest possible level, after giving the producer his cost of production and a fair margin over it, and after giving the distributor his costs and fair profit, that would be a desirable state of affairs. For that reason I think the Minister for Finance should approach the collection of the State's revenue with the idea that he must keep taxes on commodities, taxes on consumer goods and services, as low as possible. While he may not be able to attain the ideal, he must at least have as an ideal, that they should not be there at all, the point being that he should keep them to the minimum. I think it will be accepted too by every Deputy that the lower the cost of each article is, the more valuable is the monetary unit, that is the £, in this country in the hands of the man who has got to go out and buy the necessaries of life.

There is another proposition which I think would be agreed to and it is this. It was announced in a rather novel way about 100 years ago by a famous character called Wilkins Micawber, who, if judged by his pronouncements, was a profound economist but who certainly made a desperate mess of his own economics. He said that if one's income is £20 and one's expenditure is £19 19s. 11d., the result is happiness, but if one's income is £20 and one's expenditure £20 0s. 1d., the result is misery. That is just as true to-day as it was when Dickens created the character of Wilkins Micawber.

We have to bear in mind that every penny spent in the State must come out of the incomes of the people, with the one exception, which I would concede, that is, moneys which the State proposes to use for capital expenditure which will produce income. I think that capital taxes, and I have in mind now this ad valorem duty on the transfer of land, are not justifiable at all, unless the money produced by them is used by the State for capital expenditure which will be income-producing. One cannot continue to live beyond one's income indefinitely. If the State is going to take from the citizen a part of his capital, as distinct from his income, the State is thereby reducing the income-earning capacity of the individual, and, while in present circumstances, I have to concede that the Minister is correct in retaining the 25 per cent. ad valorem tax on land sold to foreigners, I think he ought to have removed the emergency ad valorem duty of 5 per cent. on such transfers. I think Deputy Dockrell approached this matter from the wrong angle. He thought this tax on transfers of property was a very heavy imposition on the buyer. If one analyses the matter, one must realise that it does not cost the buyer anything. As I see it, a man has say £2,100 to spend, and, under the present system of taxation, if he proposes to spend that £2,100 on a farm, the farm is evidently worth that amount. The seller, however, gets only £2,000. The purchaser can afford to give the seller only £2,000, because he has to pay £100 stamp duty. Therefore, that tax is a capital levy, which does not affect the buyer and which reduces the value of the land in the hands of the owner.

Following this argument of mine, that all revenue should come from income, one is driven to a very unpopular conclusion, that is, that the emphasis on taxation should be on income-tax. In our private lives, everybody will agree, we should never sacrifice principle to expediency. The same applies to the State and to the conduct of those entrusted with the Government of the country. They should have the courage, and the Minister for Finance particularly, to face up to this unpopular proposition, that all revenue does come from income, and that, therefore, in order to ensure an equalisation of the contribution of each citizen the emphasis should be on income-tax.

I know that there are arguments advanced against this; I know that people will say that, if you increase income-tax, you will drive capital out of the country. That may be so, but we are keeping capital out of the country at present by the policy, under the last Government, of putting a 25 per cent. ad valorem duty on the purchase of land by foreigners and by this Government's retention of that emergency duty. I appreciate that the Budget is a very effective, if not the most effective, instrument for implementing Government policy, and I concede also that there are things, consumer goods and services, which, from the social and other points of view, it might be desirable to tax for the purpose of reducing or restricting their consumption. If, incidental to that, the taxation of these commodities produces revenue, it is all to the good. I do not at all agree that any goods which are consumed by the citizens should be taxed for the sake of revenue only. There should be some purpose behind the taxation of goods which citizens use, other than the mere purpose of getting revenue for the State.

On the face of it, I say, as I have already said, that that is an unpopular approach and it would take a courageous Minister for Finance ultimately to face up to that. The Minister for Finance has not faced up to it in this Budget. He has increased income-tax by 6d. in the £ and, in doing that, he has done no more than was promised by his predecessor. If the citizens were educated into understanding that it is out of their incomes every penny of revenue comes, I am sure that they would realise that it is better for each man to contribute according to his means and that certain people should not be in a position to evade payment of taxes, as they are at the present time when taxation is mainly an indirect tax on consumer goods. The man who neither drinks nor smokes evades a considerable portion of taxation. According to his income and according to the responsibility he owes to the State he should be compelled to pay. If goods were cheaper, even though the citizen paying income tax might have less, his £ would be more valuable to him and he would be able to buy more. If citizens could be educated to that point of view we should no longer hear this perpetual complaint from those from whom income-tax is extracted. The Minister must not sacrifice principle to expediency.

The method of the collection of taxation is in some instances a sacrifice of principle to expediency because the tax is incorporated in the price of the article and the purchaser has no appreciation as between the actual price of the article and the tax. If a purchaser were permitted to pay a shilling for a specific article and if he were then trusted to walk up the street and pay 6d. directly to a tax collector very few sixpences would find their way into the coffers of the State. The purchaser would easily lose his way. The method of taxation by incorporating the tax as part of the price of consumer goods is a very easy one from the point of view of the State. It is not because it is easy or expedient that the Minister should avail himself of it. He should only avail himself of that method of taxation where it is justifiable and where, because of social policy, it is desirable to transfer from one section of the community to another a specific burden of taxation.

While I am in favour of a substantial increase in old age pensions, I think it will be admitted that the necessity for such an increase comes about largely because of the high level of taxation generally. That set of circumstances is not confined to this country alone. It is worldwide. If taxation could be reduced the value of the old age pension would be considerably increased. The high level of the cost of living is due in large measure to the high level of taxation. I think, too, that people on low level incomes should not be called upon to pay income-tax because of the high cost of living at the present time. I do not know what the Minister can do about it this year or next year, or the year after—despite the question marks I see on the Opposition Benches—but he should approach his Budget in the coming years from that point of view. I would be in favour of having a higher allowance untaxed. I cannot recall the exact figure at the moment, but I think it is £120.

I think that allowance should be increased. The higher the income goes so should the tax go progressively higher. I suppose the expenses of the State cannot be produced by income-tax alone but I say that the emphasis should be on income-tax for the sole purpose of equalising the contribution which a citizen is called upon to make to the cost of running the State in which he lives.

I have heard a number of speeches on this Budget. I have heard the term "16 years" mentioned so often that it is the first matter that comes to my mind now. I want to tell the Opposition——

The Government.

The Government.

The 16 years are still there.

You are my opposition anyway so that technically I am right.

A very formidable one.

I want to tell this inter-Party Government that it was a good job for the country we were in office for 16 years.

Tell them the truth and tell them it is a good job that we are in now.

I shall deal with Deputy Collins' remarks later. I think Deputy Collins has already spoken. If he wishes to speak again I am sure that he will be given an opportunity of doing so.

Mr. Collins

That would be quite in keeping with Standing Orders.

I shall divide this Budget, for the sake of argument, under two headings—national and economic. The present Minister for Finance is making great strides, backed by his inter-Party Government, to undo all the work we did for the national prestige of this country. First of all, I shall take the air lines. Questions have been put down here about the air lines. I wonder how many shipping companies, when they start off by buying one or two or three liners and putting them into service, expect them to pay in the first year or in two or three years? It is quite evident what is the outlook, from a national point of view, of the inter-Party Government. They want to put this country back in the position it occupied over 16 years ago. At that time anything coming into the country had to come through our neighbour nation. We had to pick the crumbs off that nation's table prior to the time when Fianna Fáil came into power.

That was the position. If the present Government are allowed to have their way, we will go back to that position. They are fast doing away with our air liners, and our trained pilots are leaving the country. These pilots were trained here and they were helping to build up the prestige of our country here and elsewhere throughout the world.

At whose expense?

If Deputy Collins wishes to speak, I am prepared to sit down; I am prepared to listen to anything he may have to say.

Deputy Collins should restrain himself. He will have an opportunity of speaking if he wishes to do so.

It is very difficult to restrain oneself, but I bow to your ruling.

I hope the Deputy will obey it.

The position is that our nationals who have been trained as pilots are leaving Collinstown as fast as they can get out of it. That is supported by the inter-Party Government; they are encouraging the pilots to go. The members of the Party backing all that up are talking about saving a few thousand pounds. We heard from the Deputy who has interrupted all about our squandermania. I can assure him and his friends that it was a jolly good job for the country that we were the Government for so many years. At least we tried to put the country on its feet from a national point of view and we commanded much respect from other countries by reason of the way we carried on. I was taking as one example a shipping company buying liners. If that company was able in a few years to recoup what it spent on liners, then it was doing very well.

The same applies to our airports. The policy of the Government is to put us back on the road that we occupied over 16 years ago. Their policy is that we should not be recognised in the world as a nation. During the war people visited me from other countries. One man said he never heard about Ireland until he arrived in England two months before. He thought this was just a small island off the coast of Britain. When we were in power we tried to build up prestige in other countries. Now we have people here talking about nationality, about expense and criticising us for what we did. They criticise the miserable pittance that was allowed for a short-wave station. The gentlemen on the Government Benches do not want anyone to hear us except some people across the Channel. We have our people in other countries and it would have been very nice for them to hear the people of their native land over the short-wave station. But, of course, that would not be in keeping with the ideas of the inter-Party Government. They are bringing us back again to where we were prior to 1932.

One could not speak from the station; it would be impossible to speak from it; you could not radiate.

Deputy Little discussed the matter here yesterday and I am sure his explanation was true. He told us there was a conference in Atlantic City dealing with the matter.

No, he did not; he said the conference had been held and we did not get a wave-length.

We would have got one.

No, there was one near Mexico that we might get.

You have made sure we will not get it.

No, I have not.

As regards mineral exploration, we heard from the other side of the House that if only we had a survey we would have everything possible in this country. Now, although there is an opportunity of having the survey, it has been cut out of the Estimate and that action has been supported by people who hold themselves up as the saviours of the working people—the Labour Party. The members of the Labour Party hold themselves up as the saviours of the working people, yet they voted in favour of cutting this out of the Estimate.

Athletics is another important subject. Interest in athletics was lacking by reason of the war and national upheavals and our athletes were carrying on here under very adverse circumstances. Now we have an opportunity of encouraging athletes and sending them to compete in various parts of the world and so put our country again on the map. The attitude of this Government is indicated by the way in which they have treated athletics. Anything that would contribute to our national prestige has to go.

As regards our Army and Navy, I never felt more humiliated than when I heard the remarks of one gentleman who represents that wonder Party, Clann na Poblachta. He belittled the Navy and other members of the Opposition belittled the Army.

The Opposition?

The people in opposition to me, on the Government side. The policy of this Government is: do not have any Army or Navy— get rid of them.

You will depend on a neighbour nation to look after your interests here—that is your policy.

I have heard young men criticising our Army and Navy in a most disrespectful manner.

Young men who served in the Army, remember.

There are other men in the House who served as well as you. It is a doubtful economy, when the international situation is so serious, to cut down the Army and the Navy. The best thing for the inter-Party Government to say is: "We do not want an Army or a Navy; we will depend on old England." That is the attitude of a lot of you.

Like Deputy Lemass in 1927.

It would be a jolly bad job for this country if there was no Deputy Lemass, and just for your information, Deputy Lemass did more for this country than any man.

More to it, you mean.

Deputy Lemass did more to make it an independent selfrespecting nation than any man.

Does that include Dev?

I notice that you are always verbose whenever I get on to my feet. You would be better entertained if you went out and drank some of that cheap wine and then came in here and rested yourself.

The Deputy will kindly address the Chair.

Mr. Murphy

I think that that is a most offensive observation to use in this House.

I did not intend to insult the man.

I may take that as a withdrawal then.

Mr. Murphy

There has been no withdrawal as far as I have heard.

A withdrawal of what?

The Deputy made an observation which I think was most unparliamentary but he said that he did not intend to offend the Deputy to whom it was directed and I take it that that is a withdrawal.

Now that it is withdrawn, I may tell you that I do not drink wine.

A Deputy

He drinks light beer.

The smell of it affects him.

I will now deal with the economic side and I will leave the national side alone because that hurts a number of the inter-Party crowd. I think that one thing that we can say for a start off on the economic side is that we have, as a result of their policy at the moment, a lot of unemployment, and I would like to say straight off that the Labour Party, the people who are interrupting me, that very Party who have held themselves up as being the saviours of the working people, have contributed to that policy. They have told us here in speeches that only for them the workers of this country would fade out completely. I can tell them that the Fianna Fáil policy carried out under adverse circumstances for years created a lot of employment in the country and that, furthermore, we intended to create more. We hear now about housing programmes and various other things, but we initiated all that programme and we hoped to carry it through as it was done in 1938.

Another plan!

I wonder would the Deputy go and learn manners. He continues to interrupt me.

If the Deputy spoke the truth it would be easier for us to keep quiet.

A number of people are unemployed who were working at the turf in the Park and the North Wall, and a number of lorry owners are also unemployed. I have here a number of letters from lorry men asking whether they could get any work. They are people who worked on turf and whose lorries cost them a lot of money.

In Collinstown aerodrome, 400 or 500 people have been thrown out and there will be more. Sub-contractors working at the aerodrome have had to let 500 or 600 men go but still the saviours of the working classes vote for it.

And then we have the Clann na Poblachta Party that was to put everybody in the country on their feet and give benefits to everybody. They were anxious, among other things, to reduce the cost of living by 30 per cent. and to increase the social services. When they were hopping round my constituency during the election campaign they told us about all the wonders that they were going to do, but I do not see them contributing very much. I wonder will they go out and tell people like the lorry owners of County Dublin who were supporting them at that time that they have voted for 5d. more to be put on the gallon of petrol. The price of meat has increased and the price of oatmeal, margarine and other commodities. Will they go out and tell the people that they have voted for that now? I suppose that they can possibly say the same as they have already said, that they have put their policy in abeyance. There are so many things now in abeyance that it is hard to see that there is any Party left at all.

I just want to say, a Leas-Chinn Comhairle, that the words "sixteen years"——

——remind me very much of Deputy McGilligan who is now Minister for Finance, when he was speaking on this side of the House. I always thought that he was one of the best Socialists in the country from his outlook at that time. I listened patiently to his speeches when he said that the value of the £ had gone down by 10/- and that the £ was no use to-day. He gave us facts and figures here on numerous occasions. Now he tells us: "The substantial wage and salary increases already secured by all classes of workers, with such further advantages as shorter hours, paid holidays, children's allowances and other increases in social services..."—that were secured by the Fianna Fáil Government during the past 16 years—"have gone as far as is possible in present circumstances, to meet the claims of social justice, and I would make a most earnest appeal to all employees not to seek further increases in monetary remuneration or improvements in working conditions, unless warranted by exceptional circumstances." That is the man who was in opposition at one time and he is Minister for Finance to-day.

He admits here that for 16 years we have done something worth while— children's allowances, widows' and crphans' pensions and other services too numerous to mention, the free boot scheme, the free milk scheme and the Agricultural Wages Board which, in 1936, was the first thing responsible for the emancipation of the unfortunate agricultural workers. Conditions at that time were bad and they have been bad since. I do not want to say that the workers have enough. In fact, I would like to see everybody with a good deal more. I am interested in the welfare of our people although I am a member of the Fianna Fáil Party. We are a national Party and we are concerned with the well-being of the country nationally as well as economically.

Another section of the community in which I am also interested and with which, when the departmental Votes come up I would like to deal, are the pensioned teachers and the pensioned local government officials.

With reference to the old age pensions, I just want one explanation from the Minister for Finance. How is he going to give 15/- to one section and 17/6 to another?

By the means test.

As a matter of fact I would like to thank the Deputy who has just given me inspiration to carry on for another while.

To show that the Fianna Fáil Government were anxious about the working people and the poor people, they established a special Department of Social Services to deal with them and the present Minister for Social Welfare will reap the reward of the good groundwork from that previous Minister. Undoubtedly, Dr. Ryan, when he was Minister, promised us some 12 months ago the abolition of the means test. It was under consideration by an inter-departmental committee set up by him. That showed that we were just trying to put up our head again after the war period. We were still going on.

How does the Minister justify his action in asking local authorities to increase the burden on the local rates? The vouchers represent another bogey to the ratepayers. I want to remind the House that it has been represented by some members, speaking on behalf of the inter-Party Government, that we were not concerned with the sick or the down-and-out. The sick and the down-and-out have been our joint and personal consideration at all times. We were individually concerned with them and as a Party we were concerned with them. A number of the sick in my constituency are reaping the benefit of the recent Public Health Act. I must say that the Opposition have done a great deal to lower the national prestige.

The Opposition?

The Deputies opposite to me, or the Government Parties, have done so much to lower the national prestige and have created so much unemployment in 16 days and have done so much harm that any Government that takes office in future will have a hard job undoing the harm that they have succeeded in doing. By the way in which they are carrying on, I suppose they will continue to do harm. I am very sorry that some of the Deputies who made wild promises during the election were not candid enough to give an explanation to the House of their failure to carry out those promises. I have not heard any reference made by them to their great promises. They were to be miracleworkers. I have not heard the Deputies of the Labour Party explaining their action in voting for unemployment. I thought that the people on the opposite side, especially Deputy Davin, had a special scheme to end emigration. I thought that was in the bag years ago.

That is right.

I attended trade union conferences from time to time and I used to hear of these grandiose schemes from some members of the official Labour Party at that time and I thought we had nothing to do but to put them into operation. Now they are establishing a commission and it may be the Judgment Day when the commission will report. To hear them speaking, one would have imagined that they had nothing to do but to pull out the drawer and the plans were there and everything was settled.

That was in 1932.

May I remind the Deputy that from 1932 to 1938 we had one fight. Of course, he supported us for one year. I forgot that.

Mr. Murphy

God forgive us.

From 1932 to 1938 we had one fight and that is a fight which, had the inter-Party crowd been there, would not have been won. That cannot be gainsaid. I could talk for a week and tell the people opposite what has been done for this country and what they are trying to undo now. I ask the Labour Party, again, are they subscribing to the statement of the Minister for Finance that the workers should be satisfied? A number of workers have received very small increases but, according to the Minister, they must be satisfied. That is the gentleman who, when he was on this side of the House, said that the workers should have a 100 per cent. increase in their wages. Now he wants them to be satisfied. Deputy Connolly, in a very eloquent address, pointed out the percentage increase that civil servants were receiving. This is a standstill Order, supported by the people opposite, supported by Deputy O'Leary and the National Labour Party and others. The wonder-workers of the election do nothing and say nothing. They have put their policy in abeyance, as usual.

I am afraid the visit of the Irish Countrywomen's Association may have gone to Deputy Burke's head. He seems to have lost himself. When we were in opposition, on every occasion that a Minister was bringing in a Bill of importance, the first words of the Government supporters would be: "I congratulate the Minister." We heard that for 16 years. Thank God, on this side of the House there is an independent spirit. There is no slave-mind. Deputies on this side make their speeches in a clear, manly way. I am not one of those who will congratulate the Minister because I know that he does not want flattery. He has done his job and we are satisfied that the job was well done, that this is a good Budget.

There are many standards by which you can judge a Budget. I adopt three main standards: first, the effect of a Budget on the general public; second, the reaction to the Budget of the leader of the Opposition; and third, how the burden is distributed. On these standards I think the Budget is good. In regard to the effect of the Budget on the general public, any man in the street, the public house, the dance hall, will find very little to criticise. Every man in the ordinary way of life says it is a good Budget, whether he is a Fianna Fáil supporter or not, and he can say nothing else. In regard to the second standard, the speech made by Deputy Lemass on Budget day was enough to make everyone realise that the Budget must be very good because he foamed at the mouth, got into a white heat, lost his temper. Not only that, but he went back to the dirty, low-bred trick of raking up all the dirt from 1922 to 1932. Anything that he could level at the Minister or Cumann na nGaedheal he levelled it. That was not dignified on the part of an ex-Minister, a responsible man, who should adopt a better tone. There has been no business for the last ten or 15 years and houses have been reduced to shacks over the country. Was that not a grand state of affairs? Then they ask you to come here and talk about the national revival and the national advance. The Party opposite spent the last 16 years wrecking the State, starting in 1932 with war on the farmer and fears that he would have to sell his cattle for less than he paid for them.

That is going very far back.

There is no one here expecting miracles under the present Budget. It could not happen. We had to take over an Estimate of £70,000,000 and make the best of it. It was handed over by our predecessors, who had fixed up themselves for increased taxation. The first thing we had to do was to find out if we could reduce it, by any means and every means. We find that the Minister for Finance has reduced it by £8,000,000. He has done a very good job and one for which the people are thankful. He has adjusted the Budget to the position and he has made it rest on the proper shoulders— the weak bearing the lightest burden and the strong bearing the heaviest. It is quite evident that those best able to bear the brunt should bear it and not those who were unfitted for it.

One but needs to look about at the present day to see the changed outlook. One of the things that I like about the present Budget is that it has done one thing for the ordinary, or what I might call the lower, element in the country—it has given a wave of confidence. Before the last election and during it, one of the greatest pieces of intimidation ever carried out in this country was carried out against the old, the aged, the infirm and the sick —they were put in fear and trembling that they might lose the old age pension or the widows' and orphans' pension, or their little doles and sops, if they voted for anyone but Fianna Fáil. Thanks be to God, we have seen the day now that their eyes are open and they see that, when Fianna Fáil was thrown out of power, instead of losing their pensions they are going to get more—better old age pensions, better widows' and orphans' pensions and more relief under the pensions schemes. I am glad that day has come and I know it will bring a better type of spirit throughout the country. In my own county, some of the greatest hooliganism and blackguardism was carried on by officials of the State, paid out of State money.

That has nothing to do with taxation.

It is only a passing remark.

We have had too many passing remarks and they may lead to further replies.

I will refer to Deputy Lemass in his opening speech. In the case of a man of his class in this country—and he is a man with plenty of good qualities and bad qualities—he should have kept his good qualities for the Budget day. It was the Budget of his predecessor and we all know the problems facing this country recently. The first Government here laid the foundations and they gave us one of the things which kept us safe during the emergency, namely, Deputy McGilligan gave us the Shannon Scheme. But for that, we would have foundered during the last emergency. On top of that, we got the beet factories, the boot factories and the cigarette factories. These were given to us by the Cumann na nGaedheal Government and by Deputy McGilligan, in a hard and trying time. I want to give credit where credit is due; and I want to give credit to Deputy Lemass, in that he brought into this country a fair amount of industrial revival—and there are some industries of benefit to production now, which will stand the test of time. But on top of that, he brought in a set of crooks and foreigners of all kinds.

This is not a contest between the present Minister for Finance and Deputy Lemass, as to which is the better. This is a Budget, the purpose of which is to collect money to carry on the services of the State and the Deputy is wandering far from the Resolution before the House.

I would not have started at all only that Deputy Lemass was allowed to carry on for at least an hour with the cheapest jibes he possibly could and he was not even held up on it.

That is a reflection on the Chair.

The Deputy will be allowed to speak within the rules of order and so will any other Deputy; but the Deputy is wandering.

The Budget, to my mind, is very satisfactory. It could be better, but under the circumstances I do not think a better job could be made of it.

Deputy Little came in and, in his usual patriotic outburst, talked about the taking away of the short-wave station and the enormous destruction to the national advance. I want to let Deputy Little and those concerned realise that we have at the moment a long-wave station in full blast. It has been across to America, to-day it is in Australia and to-morrow it will be in New Zealand; and I hope that the day after it will be across the Border. While we have that long-wave station, as its own expense and without any expense to the State, we will be quite happy—and I think we all know the long-wave to which I am referring.

One thing I am satisfied about is the placing of the five pence a gallon on petrol. I think it is a good thing, since those, including ourselves, who were able to keep a car on the road do not mind paying a few pence extra for the petrol. There is, however, one section of the community that will feel pretty sore and I think are entitled to feel sore, that is, the agriculturists who carry on tillage by the petrol-driven tractor. They are getting a fairly hard blow and I am satisfied that they are entitled to some consideration.

At the moment, they are trying to get a deputation before the Minister in connection with their grievance, which is a genuine one. I am satisfied that any man working a Ferguson tractor has got a raw deal. I think they are entitled to reconsideration, because, after all, it is one of our main points that we carry on our agricultural policy in a forward and businesslike manner. Where any man embarked on the buying of this tractor, we know that it cost him a great deal, £500 to £1,000, to get it set up on the farm. These men at the present moment feel in a very awkward position. I think there are up to 500 of these tractors at present in operation and they are entitled to get the petrol for them duty free, just as tractor vapourising oil and all those other spirits which are running the various tractors are duty free. I think they can make a case and I would ask the Minister to receive the deputation on their behalf. It would be a good move as, after all, the Ferguson tractor was designed to run on petrol and cannot be turned over overnight to be driven on tractor vapourising oil. I have ascertained that myself from people in a responsible position in regard to these tractors. I asked as to whether they could be changed over and I am told that the make up of the engine does not stand for that, so they have a grievance and I would like it to be looked into.

All the other points have been pretty well covered. I am satisfied that the ordinary men are quite happy that the Budget is a good one. The farmers are quite satisfied that it is the best that can be done in the circumstances. There is a wave of confidence coming over everyone and a feeling that things are not as bad as they are made out to be. Now, under the inter-Party Government, we were supposed to be in for a desperate doom, but we find that even in this House there is an air of independence, which allows every Party in the Government to stand up and criticise from their point of view and still they are part of the Government and will stay part of the Government. The Labour Party can denounce this, that and the other that does not suit the Labour interests, but they will still be a loyal Party to the Government. That is something the country and the House need badly.

For 16 years, we saw the dumb being led by one or two vocal men who sat in the front seats. The dumb had to vote and act against their own interests and the national interests and, still dumb, they were led by the nose. Thanks be to God, the people on this side of the House now will not be led by the nose. They are free, independent and national and their outlook is decent and honest and the people know that they have no need to worry for the future, because that class of charity stuff put across last session will not be put across again. They now know that whatever Party goes into power the legislation passed in their interest is not going to be changed—at least for the worse, although it may be changed for the better. Therefore, in the winding up of this Budget, we are quite satisfied that a good day's work has been done for the country. The Budget is going to give an air of independence to the people who were brow-beaten over the last 15 years, with increased taxation from 1932 to 1948, from £32,000,000 to £70,000,000.

The farmers have seen the first benefits of the new Budget in an immediate reduction of £8,000,000 in taxation. They are looking forward to more reductions next year and better services. We have already given a reduction with better services. I am satisfied this country will never be run on proper lines until the national Budget is down to £40,000,000 or £35,000,000 a year and I am satisfied it can be done, with more decent services. This country is cluttered up with officialdom and State officials who are paid a huge amount. I am satisfied that one in three could be dispensed with and the people left to work out a living in their own way. We have crowds of inspectors, including quota inspectors and licence inspectors, that we do not need at all. The people can mind their own business in their own way if they are let alone. Now we have started to take down at the top and we have only to run the country on business lines and it will be a success.

I am very glad, just as an ordinary back-bencher of the Labour Party, to have this opportunity of putting my views on the Budget before this House. As a new member I am not inclined to take any particular side as regards the difficulties that have been met in the past either on the left or on the right. I endeavour to see the question from the ordinary point of view of the working man in my constituency. I gained a certain notoriety for myself because it suited a particular paper in this country to boost up a statement of mine to the effect that old age pensioners would in future reach a point of £1 per week. I was the subject of a leader in that particular paper and I was also the subject of comment by Deputy Lemass. I am not vain enough to think that I merited these things. Rather, I thought that, because of an indiscretion, I was being used. But, thank God that the Government of which I have the honour to be a member understood that I was not bound to any particular line of policy but that I was a free man taking part in an inter-Party Government, as a free man representing the people of my constituency. If I did state that the old age pensioners would receive £1 a week I am very glad to note that the Minister for Social Services has since endorsed my remarks and, if it has not come this year, we have at least gone a step of the road. I make bold enough to think that a number of the Deputies on my left, if they were as free as I am, would agree that an increase in old age pensions is a good thing for this country. I doubt if there is a single Deputy on my left who, if he were free again, would state otherwise. I certainly would suggest that very few of them would stand up and state that they would not favour an increase in old age pensions.

I stated already in this House that I would have no qualms about where the tax was put provided it was for the purpose of giving increases to those who need it most—the old, the infirm, the blind and the sick. I repeat that, and I think that in repeating it I am but echoing the words of our leader in this House, Deputy Larkin. We are not a bit ashamed of it. Neither do we fear that Fine Gael or Clann na Talmhan or Clann na Poblachta Deputies will look aghast at us because we say so. It may seem a very funny thing, if you like, for the people on the left that there are people who can stand up and express their views without any fear of being called before a Party meeting or an inter-Party meeting. We are not a bit afraid at all. Mr. McGilligan, the Minister for Finance, could meet me in the passage and, if any random words of mine caused him to have to cater for £600,000 more, it is a great thing that I can pass him. I can also pass the Minister for Social Services, Mr. Norton, without having to make explanations. In expressing Labour Party policy—which we expressed before the general election and which we express now—we have not to apologise and say: "We are members of the Government and we are never again going to open our mouths." If the people on my left had that same freedom they would agree with me that 17/6, little as it is, is a step in the right direction. I will give an opportunity to the Fianna Fáil Party now of quoting an indiscretion in saying that I, as a Labour Party man, suggest that next year the allowance should be a £1 a week——

A Deputy

Good man.

——and more.

A Deputy

And stick to it.

Yes, and stick to it. But, as our Leader said, I am not going to be inveigled into voting for a Budget that will give less. If any Party will stand up and propose 26/- a week for old age pensioners and, at the same time, impose an additional 2d. on cigarettes I am prepared to pay the price even though I smoke from 40 to 60 cigarettes a day. I wonder how many Deputies on my left are prepared to do so.

With regard to the means test, I would suggest that it should be abolished. Under the children's allowances scheme there is no means test. The old age pensioners should be treated like that and the only onus on them should be that of proving their age. The money we would save on the salaries of investigation officers, who could be seconded to some other Department, would, to all intents and purposes, meet the need. Anyone, such as I, who has had experience of serving on an old age pension commtitee realises that 50 per cent. of the claims are regarded as bogus. We might as well make it 100 per cent. and save the salaries of the investigation officers. In that event we would not, as we are doing now, be penalising those who saved up all their lives until they reached 70 years of age when, because they had a certain amount of money in the bank as a result of all their thrift, they are penalised by not being granted the old age pension allowance as against those who squandered all they had.

I come from a county which, in the main, is a non-turf area. When people on my left, or even on my right, if they do stand up, state that we should have continual hand-won turf I have to smile because, in my county for the past five or six years, the people have been crucified by the turf racket. We have had to pay, and pay through the nose, for wet muck. If we welcome coal which will at least burn, irrespective of the cost, who is to blame us? As a trade unionist, I have no objection to Irishmen working. If we had Irish coal mines that could provide the requirements of this country I would be one of the first to suggest an embargo on the entry of any foreign material into this country. However, as other members here know, the stuff we got in my county was so bad that it would not burn.

If we welcome the fact that coal is available it is because of the hardships we suffered and not because of any wish to harm Ireland or any of Ireland's industries. If we could get good turf in my county we would welcome it any time but, up to the time I am speaking of I have not seen it. If, now, because this Government has abandoned the hand-won turf scheme, I am expected to weep crocodile tears someone is making a mistake because I have no intention of doing so. I am going to be perfectly honest. I am going to impress on this House, on behalf of the people I represent, the fact that they appreciate that we can buy coal so that we can have ordinary comfort. We are only just human beings; we are not super-patriots at all.

There is one concession which I think the Minister for Finance should have made in regard to income-tax. I suggest that the income of the ordinary worker, even though higher in money value, is lower in purchasing power than it was four years ago and that the Minister should have increased the earned income allowance of workers so that they would have an opportunity of providing for those belonging to them whom they cannot make claims for in their income-tax returns.

Another point I would stress is the provision of free school books for national school children. I have four children at present going to a national school. I have not always been a Deputy, and a few years back I was employed by a certain society or organisation which, in fairness to them, I do not want to name, from whom I received the princely sum of £2 3s. per week during the war years. Out of that I had to feed and clothe my wife, myself and four children. I found that if my children accepted free school books they had to do so under the taint of being pauper's children. They did not accept them. I suggest that this State is lacking in its duty to the children of this country if they do not provide free education for them without any obligation to brand themselves as paupers and to accept books which are handed down from one year to another carrying tuberculosis and other infectious germs which can be carried by secondhand books. I suggest that this State will be failing in its duty if they cannot provide them with books so as to give them an opportunity of being educated without branding themselves as paupers.

I also suggest that this State has been neglectful in its duty in that the son of an ordinary workingman, be he ever so talented, cannot avail of a University scholarship unless his parents are in a position to put up a sum of £60 at the very least. I know of many cases where such parents have not been in that position and the children had to refuse the scholarships which went to those next on the list because their parents had a bigger income.

I suggest that the Deputy should now come back to the Resolution before the House.

Deputy Little, when speaking of the short-wave station, said that it would give us a certain prestige and he regretted that it was being dismantled. I suggest that we sent 250,000 emigrants over to Britain during the Fianna Fáil régime to broadcast our poverty. There should be work provided in this country for everybody. Deputy Burke taunted the Labour Party with running away from what they had said. As a Labour Deputy, I will repeat what I have said on platforms before the election and after the election, that it is the duty of this State to give employment to every man and woman willing and able to work and to keep in ordinary Christian comfort those unable to work. It is on that policy that we stand, and it is because of the fact that I see in this Budget an effort to move along these lines that I am prepared to support it as an ordinary back-bencher of the Labour Party.

The popular approach to this Budget is to see how it affects the ordinary man. I can see the reason for that, because the more a Deputy can speak in favour of the ordinary man and the poorer sections of the people the more popular his speech is likely to be with the great majority of the people. There are two main items in this Budget which, at first sight, might not be considered to affect the ordinary man. One is the increased duty on petrol and oils. The great majority of people who drive cars do so for pleasure, or at least the cars do not form the main means of providing their income. Therefore, they do not resent to any great degree the imposition of the extra 5d. a gallon on petrol. But there are large companies and others who, in the ordinary course of their business, spend enormous sums on petrol during the year.

Take, for instance, Córas Iompair Éireann. The increase of 5d. per gallon on petrol and heavy and light oils will affect the income of Córas Iompair Éireann to a very large extent during the coming year. One might ask what has that to do with the ordinary man. The manner in which I foresee it may affect the ordinary man is that Córas Iompair Éireann will either put up with the increase, seek to increase fares or, failing that, will seek to reduce wages. That has almost a direct bearing on how this increase will affect the ordinary passenger who has to pay fares whether on pleasure bent or going or coming from business. I ask the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Industry and Commerce, whichever of them will have to face the responsibility, to try to ensure that this increase will not in the long run affect poor people, because that would mean an indirect tax on people who, Deputies on both sides of the House will agree, cannot very well bear it.

The other matter in the Budget which I put in the same category is the withdrawal of the subsidy on sugar, tea and butter for hotels, and catering establishments. Those people who can get back to their homes every day for their meals will not be affected by the withdrawal of the subsidy. There are, however, very many people with very small incomes who must of necessity have recourse to hotels, catering establishments and canteens in order to procure their meals during working hours. Catering establishments, I am sure, will not be happy about seeing their profits reduced and they will try to pass on this increase to the consumer, particularly the ordinary man who comes there every day for his lunch and his cup of tea.

Again, I would ask the Minister to ensure that, as far as possible, this increase will not be passed on to the unfortunate public. In his wisdom, he foresees that the proprietors of hotels and catering establishments are the people best fitted to bear this increase in order to reduce the cost of running the country. I would urge him to maintain, as far as possible, his object of imposing that increase on the people whom he wants to tax.

As far as manufacturers are concerned, the possibility of the increase being passed on to the public may be more remote. The Minister estimates that by forcing the manufacturers to pay 7½d. per lb. for sugar he will save £300,000. I hope, again, that that sum will not be saved at the expense of the ordinary poor taxpayer. I should say that jam manufacturers and, possibly, biscuit manufacturers will be affected by this increase and that their natural reaction to it will be to pass on the extra 3½d. per lb., as far as they are able to get away with it, to the consumer. Jam, as we know, is very popular with poor people. It is a luxury to some extent, but as far as families are concerned it is a very necessary luxury especially of those families which exist on very small incomes. Again, I would ask the Minister to ensure that this extra burden is kept at the door of the people he wishes to reach.

In regard to food subsidies generally, the Minister has adopted the device of extending the subsidy payments on wheat over the next five years, thus saving £2,500,000 this year. If he is correct in assuming that the price of wheat will not increase during the next five years, it, possibly, is a very easy device. Nevertheless, cereal crops are very uncertain in many respects. There is the danger of fire and of strikes in such countries as America. If as a result of any such factors as these, the price of wheat should go up during the next five years, the Minister will find that the £2,500,000 saved this year will have to go on next year's Budget, plus a few more million pounds as a result of the increase, so that in preparing next year's Budget, if he ever reaches that position, he will be faced with a very serious problem. His total sum will for him bear a very unfortunate relation to the sum set forth for the present year.

The Minister referred to the saving of £750,000 on the Army. Even though that has already been fully discussed on the Vote for the Department of Defence, perhaps I may be permitted to refer to it again in the light of a statement which was made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach during the recent election campaign. If I read his statement aright it was to the effect that if Fine Gael got into power they would not only reduce the cost of the Army but promised to use that reduction towards bringing down the cost of food. The only food, or anything akin to food, which has been reduced in cost as a result of this Budget, and of the accession to power of Fine Gael, are wines and champagne.

What about the addition to the tea subsidy of £500,000.

I am dealing at the moment with wines and champagnes. I think it is a character in Shakespeare who says that "if music be the food of love, play on and let me have excess of it", but if wines and champagne are the food to which the Parliamentary Secretary was referring on that occasion, I am afraid the ordinary person in this country will not say to the Minister for Finance: "play on, let me have excess of this kind of food and of this kind of reduction" because, as far as I can see, it is a fact that the cost of none of the ordinary foods consumed from day to day by the people has been reduced since this Government came into power. On the contrary, the price of many of them has gone up.

For instance?

The price of farmer's butter has gone down but, of course, the farmer has to bear that expense. Another matter is the withdrawal of the contribution heretofore paid by the Exchequer to local authorities to defray the cost of food vouchers. That matter was discussed on the adjournment last night by Deputy Corry and the Minister for Social Welfare. At any rate, the immediate effect of the withdrawal of that contribution is to increase the local rates. We have been promised some new social services in the future which will tend, as the Minister says, to reduce the rates levied by local authorities. The Minister for Finance knows better than I do that no increase in the rates is passed on all round generally.

When some people refer to the ratepayers they are thinking only of the better-off people in the community, while the fact is that the very poor people have to pay rates indirectly. Deputy Corry referred to an Act that will make very poor people bear a very large proportion of the increase so far as this particular rate is concerned. He referred to the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. That Act only affects houses with valuations of £6 and under. I think everyone will agree that such houses are occupied by the poorest sections in the community. As a result of the policy of this Government, the landlord can now pass on the increase in the rates to the unfortunate tenant, who has no redress. The Minister has promised some legislation to relieve that situation. That legislation is in futuro. The fact is that at the present time people all over the country are getting demands from their landlords for the payment of increased rents, and there is no way of resisting such demands.

I should like to refer to the statement in the Minister's Budget speech on the European recovery programme. Perhaps I may be permitted to quote part of what he said:—

"The aid which is to come from the United States under the European recovery programme will help us to put our economy generally, and agriculture in particular, on a sound basis.... It would be altogether opposed both to the purpose for which the aid is being so generously extended and to the national interest to regard it as in any way lessening the necessity for urgent and strenuous efforts to remedy the defects in our economic position. In this regard it is of paramount importance that there should be a big expansion in agricultural output as a whole."

So far as Marshall aid is concerned, I believe it is the intention of the Americans to insist that countries which they propose to benefit under the Marshall aid in any particular commodity must produce that particular item to their utmost capacity. Wheat forms a very large proportion of the aid which, as the Minister puts it, we are so generously getting from America. I find it very hard to reconcile the statement of the Minister in his Budget speech with the oft-repeated statement of the Minister for Agriculture that the growing of wheat is codology. I think the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Finance should get together before these contradictory statements are made and before any benefits which we may be getting under the Marshall plan are jeopardised by such irresponsible statements as those which the Minister for Agriculture has been making.

Another matter which may not be directly concerned with the Budget but which I submit has a certain kinship to it is the question of the raising of the school-leaving age. Most Deputies on both sides of the House agree that it would be desirable to raise the school-leaving age to 16 years. It is desirable from many points of view but there is one point of view which must be considered. Poor families are looking forward at present to the time when young people, particularly boys, reach the age of 14, when they can go out, do a little work and in some way contribute to the family income. If the proposal to raise the school age to 16 becomes law, it will affect these families to a very large extent. There is another question which is rather important when one considers this proposal to raise the school age. If the age is raised to 16, it will mean that extra teachers and extra schools must be provided. I think that would be in direct conflict with the Government's policy of retrenchment.

The age has not been raised yet.

There is a motion from the other side of the House still on the Order Paper requesting that the school-leaving age should be raised. That motion has not been withdrawn, yet the building of schools that were in course of erection has been stopped, has been completely put in abeyance.

To a large extent.

Not to any extent. The Minister for Finance stated specifically that it was not true to any extent.

He said that the building of some of them was being stopped.

He did not.

I was listening to him.

My impression of what he said was that the building of some schools was being stopped. I am afraid that if the Government is going to raise the school-leaving age after this motion has been debated and passed here, the Minister for Finance will find himself in a very difficult position—firstly as regards provision for the payment of teachers and, secondly, as regards the erection and maintenance of schools.

Before concluding, I should like to comment on the disparaging references of Deputy Kyne to the people on his left. He implied that the shackles of bondage and restraint involved in membership of the Fianna Fáil Party were such that members of that Party were hindered from giving free expression to their opinions here or anywhere else. In particular, he associated that statement with the increase in old age pensions. The Fianna Fáil Government was the first Government in this country to grant an increase in the old age pensions. They increased them on two occasions for that matter. In common with Deputy Kyne, and irrespective of what anybody else thinks, I should like to see old age pensions increased still further above the 15/- or 17/6 which the Minister for Finance proposes. If they could be increased to 27/6 and if the country could afford it I would support any motion or legislation to that effect.

I shall not unduly delay the House. Listening for three or four days to the various speeches made on this Budget, I have come to the conclusion that there is scarcely one new avenue of thought that anyone might touch upon in regard to this Budget. Having heard so many speeches from the opposite benches, I wondered did any of the Opposition Deputies before the Budget seriously ask himself what was responsible for bringing Deputies who formerly occupied the Government Benches across to occupy the benches on the Opposition side?

Rival policies.

They have been relegated in my opinion by the people into the wilderness of their own unfulfilled promises and in that wilderness you have to suffer a purgation for at least five years if not for longer. In my opinion that is due to the promises specifically made by that Party which remained unfulfilled, promises which led the electorate at first to give you the power of Government. The only comment which I wish briefly to make at this late hour about the Budget, is that it is a humanitarian Budget because it is indicative of a Christian sympathy for the weakest and poorest section of our community. It does not propose to do all that many of us, individually, would like to see done but in view of the unparalleled economic difficulty which the present Minister has had to inherit from the Fianna Fáil Government, I suggest that it would not be easy to improve on the manner in which he has sought to operate the various social services equitably and uniformly amongst the various sections of the people. I am delighted with the Budget. I heard many of the speeches from the Opposition side but the only one which impressed me was that delivered by a Deputy who spoke from the corner seat whose name I regret I do not recall.

A Deputy

One of your own.

I do not think so. Most of the speeches which I heard from over there were directed primarily, not so much to a criticism of the present Budget as in praise of the beneficent legislation of the Fianna Fáil Government. That was the purport of many of the speeches. One of the few criticisms that I heard, I thought was dispelled beyond any manner of contradiction by the Minister for Social Welfare last night in regard to the payment of 2/6 under the heading of the voucher system. It was contended that that would react as a burden on the community, both as rural ratepayers and general taxpayers. I thought he clarified that.

There is one matter which I expected would have been mentioned in the Budget. No Government, not even a Fianna Fáil Government, can draw indefinitely from the source of supply. If you extract from the source of supply without replenishing it, the ultimate outcome will be economic ruin. What is the chief source of supply in this country? It is agriculture, the basis of our whole economy. I remember a remarkable speech made by Deputy de Valera, just before Fianna Fáil came into power. It was a speech made to a very large convention of farmers in a hall in this city. He said to them: "The evils you suffer from are not from God. They are not, like the elements or the seasons, something over which we have no control. These evils can readily be remedied by good government, which I propose to give you, if and when the Party of which I am the leader is elected to power." That speech was made shortly before 1931.

That is a long time ago.

It is quite a long time ago, but there is an old proverb: "Try back is good hunting."

The Deputy should not hunt all the hares back so far.

My reason for referring to agriculture is that I come from the chief dairying county of the country. We are told that Cork county and Limerick supply 63 per cent. of the butter and cheese of the country. Agriculture in my county is definitely declining and I thought that some consideration would have been given to that county, in view of the precarious condition of that industry there. There has been a reduction of about 20 per cent. in the milk yield. There was a diminution in the supply of milk as between one year and another, according to statistical returns by creameries, of about 5,000,000 gallons. Within the last 12 months, there has been the question of labour. In our county, the farmer must give a man £80, with another £80 to maintain him. The Minister for Agriculture says he hopes to provide a sufficiency of artificial manures to increase the quality of grass and thereby increase the milk yield. The price of fertilisers at the moment is prohibitive—something in the region of £10 per ton—to the ordinary farmer who has to maintain a household and pay high rates. These rates have gone up recently by 2/6 in the £ and I believe the industry would be in a very serious predicament were it not for the little increase given to it last year. The position to-day, however, is very bad. I am in business as an auctioneer, and, for the past three or four years, I have seen herd after herd being put up for sale by farmers because they feel that the dairying industry is no longer an economic proposition for them. Mortality in calves is very high, a fact which I reported recently to the Department. I thought the Government would have recognised, as they must, that the basis of our whole economy is agriculture and that the primary industry is the dairying industry because it maintains the continuity of the dairy and dry stock throughout the country.

I have said that this Budget is a humanitarian Budget. It has all the principles and ideals which one would expect in a Christian democratic State. The poor are being considered and the dictum of the Master: "What you do for the least of these My little ones, you do for Me," has been remembered. It is a splendid Budget for them and I am perfectly sure that, after a year, when we have effected further economies and have attained the position of stability, prosperity and progress, we shall be able to put the poor in a better position to rear their families. I hope the responsible Minister, with the Minister for Finance, will seriously consider the precarious position of the dairying industry. If they could see their way to supplement the effort of the previous Minister for Agriculture by increasing the price of milk to the farmers by a penny or twopence a gallon, it would bring to that section of our people a ray of hope, a new hope and a new outlook, similar to that which the election of the present Government and the defeat of Fianna Fáil has created throughout the country. The people are breathing freely again. There is a new outlook, a new hope and a new cheery atmosphere by reason of the defeat of Fianna Fáil who, during the past 16 years, inflicted on every section of the community enduring and continuing ruin.

This Budget has been described by the previous speaker as a humane Budget. I wonder has he for a moment considered how humane it is towards the old age pensioners. We are told that £600,000 is to be given to the old age pensioners and that the means test is to be modified. I take it that the Government propose to alter the conditions governing the means test. Judging from the meagre amount voted in addition it is quite obvious that the schedules are not going to be altered to any appreciable extent. We have been told of the sum of 17/6 per week for old age pensioners. We have not been told the appointed day. We have not been told the type of pensioner who is going to get that 17/6. Many of the Deputies now occupying the Government Benches assured the old age pensioners that they were going to get much more than £600,000. They assured them that the means test would be abolished. So far in this debate no indication has been given to us by any of the speakers on the Government side of the House that the alteration in the schedules was the only step to be taken in the interests of old age pensioners and that for that £600,000 £900,000 will be taken off the workers or their employers at a given date. Unemployment and national health are going to be increased. I wonder what is going to happen that section of the community known as voluntary contributors. They have been at some disadvantage in the past in meeting their contributions. What is going to happen if their contribution is increased?

What is going to happen in the case of the teachers? I do not see anything in the Budget which would indicate to the teachers that they will get increases. I am particularly anxious that the ex-teachers who are now on pension should benefit in some way. They certainly deserve some amelioration of their conditions.

Are you speaking of the teachers now?

I said that I cannot see on the Budget any indication that either teachers or ex-teachers are going to get an increase.

And you think they should?

I certainly think they should, especially the ex-teachers.

It is a pity Deputy Derrig is not here now.

The ex-teachers certainly deserve some consideration from the Minister in view of the promises made to them. The present Minister for Education made that promise to them. It is very easy to forget promises. We should not have such short memories.

You are informing me?

I am very sorry the Minister has such a short memory.

It goes back to 1932.

They were promised and they got your support during the strike. I am very sorry your memories are so short and I only hope, for the sake of the teachers and ex-teachers, that the memories of the Fine Gael Party will not be too short and that they will give them some increase in their pensions. I think such an increase is very necessary.

I notice there is a sum of £85,000 which was earmarked for the exploration of the mineral wealth of the country. That also goes by the board. I would like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that £50,000 of that sum was earmarked by the Fianna Fáil Government for the exploration of the Slievardagh coal mines. I can assure you that the people interested in the Slievardagh coal mines will not describe this Budget as a humane one.

Is any of it earmarked for gold in County Wicklow?

Slievardagh is up for sale.

If there is any gold in County Wicklow I am quite sure Deputy Cowan would have made it out by now. That particular area of County Tipperary is unquestionably one of the poorest. When Fianna Fáil came into power the people of Slievardagh were in a poverty-stricken condition. Most of them were drawing home assistance. As much as £65 per week was being paid out by the local home assistance officer at one period in that area. Thanks to the wise and sound economic policy of Fianna Fáil those people have since found employment.

Has the Deputy a Book of Estimates before him?

I beg your pardon?

Has the Deputy a Book of Estimates before him?

I have the figure upon which you allegedly economise—a sum of £55,000.

Just before that there is a sum of £43,000 for Slievardagh. I do not think I am touching that.

You are touching the sum of £55,000 and £35,000 was for Slievardagh.

There is a special Vote for Slievardagh—quite a different thing.

Come out of the hole.

Look at the Estimates.

Do not ask him to be accurate.

It was up for auction last year.

Slievardagh?

Deputy Davin knows nothing about Slievardagh and it is a very serious thing for a Deputy to make statements when he does not know the facts.

What are you doing?

The Deputy is entitled to make his speech and will be heard.

This money was provided for the exploration of the mines at a place called Copper which is an entirely different thing from the mine that has been working up to now.

This Budget is disappointing also from the point of view of the shopkeepers in that area. By stopping the hand-won turf schemes and putting the people out of employment in the mines the Government has taken away from the workers their purchasing power. They have reduced the profit to the shopkeepers on tea by 2½d. per lb. Everybody knows that tea is the only commodity on which the grocer can make a reasonable profit.

This Budget is disappointing because of the false hopes that were raised by the present Government. The old age pensioners were promised £2 a week. Quite recently some of the Government spokesmen said that they were going to get £1 per week. What happened in the meantime? Mr. McGilligan's axe came down and the old age pensioners suffered.

The Minister's.

The Minister's axe—I am sorry. The Minister's axe came down and again the old age pensioners suffered. Of course, it is not the first time.

Suffered by an increase?

It is not the first time this has happened. In a former period the schedules were altered to the detriment of the old age pensioners. I fail to see how any of the Labour Deputies can vote for this Budget. If they do vote for it, then I say politics make very strange bedfellows. We were told by people in the past, who claimed to be authorities on finance, that there is only one economy—wise spending. That was the policy of Fianna Fáil— wise spending.

If you leave out the word "wise" it is all right.

It was wise spending and good economy.

Santry Court, for example.

That is an excellent example.

Yes, there are 101 items where I could prove to you that there was very, very wise spending. We can only hope that the duration of the period of office of the present Government will not be long. I am sure that the poorer sections of the community will pray with us that that day will come and that they will again find themselves governed by a Government which will have regard for the workers of this country.

I do not propose to take up very much of the time of the House with what I have to say on this question, but the last Deputy's remarks brought a few things to my mind. He spent some moments criticising the election promises of the various Parties on this side of the House. I have a distinct recollection of the working of the propaganda machine of the people now in opposition. They told the old age pensioners "Forthwith your pensions will cease."

That never happened.

They told the people "The pensions for the blind will also cease and work under the county councils will cease." In short, this country, according to the Fianna Fáil propaganda machine, was liable to float out into the broad Atlantic if the hand of the Chief was removed from the helm of the State. I can say that by this Budget the very opposite has happened. Although as a member of the Clann na Poblachta Party I am not in complete agreement with all the aspects of the Budget, I say that it was the very best the Minister for Finance could submit, seeing the mess he had to face after 16 years with Fianna Fáil in power. We saw an increase in the old age pensions. That was a promise that was kept, not like the ones in 1932. In addition to that, we see that the old age pensioner has not now to go on a Saturday to the relieving officer for his 2/6 after going on Friday to the post office for his pension. That alone is a great relief for an aged person.

Last week and for the past two days the main criticism that I have heard levelled at this Budget has been concerned with petrol and, if it has not been concerned with petrol, it had to deal with farmer's butter. Those two items seem to be the key points of the criticism levelled at the Budget by Fianna Fáil. It is not what we in Clann na Poblachta would like to see as a Budget but, of course, we are only part of the Government.

You are the tail end.

The tail that wagged you out of office.

The tail will not wag the dog this time.

We did not get the numbers returned that we expected, and that was mainly due to the vile propaganda that issued from Fianna Fáil prior to the election. I welcome this Budget for the relief it gives to the poorer sections of the community. The saving in the Army Estimate has been criticised. I think it is no harm that men who have been associated with or who are in the Army should have a word to say with regard to this saving. This matter was discussed on the Army Estimate. Everyone realises that, due to the policy pursued by Deputy Traynor, we had not enough recruits to fill one small depôt in Athlone. The response to the recruiting drive instigated by Deputy Traynor did not come up to his expectations. I spent quite a while on the Army Estimate telling him the reasons for that. I do not propose to go into it now beyond saying that it was only right that £750,000 should be saved on the Army.

I also mentioned on another occasion the toy Navy which we have floating around our coasts, and I suggested that that should get the axe. I am sorry the Minister for Finance could not see his way to remove that toy Navy. Deputy MacEntee attacked me recently over this business of a Navy. I would like to see a Navy, but if we are to have a Navy let it be a good one and not the laughing-stock of Europe —a few motor torpedo-boats, relics, as we all know, from the British Navy, cruising around our coastline and arriving on the scene of a poaching expedition two days after the catch has been removed. That is not a Navy.

My idea—and it is the Clann na Poblachta idea—is that the money wasted on a Navy of that description could be better devoted to the purchase of trawlers and equipment for our fishermen. There are certain boats available to-day that would cover this aspect of defence on which Deputy de Valera is so keen. There are dualpurpose boats available which could be used as trawlers and in war time they would be of use around our coasts for the purpose of dropping depth-charges on submarines. That is the nearest approach we can go to a Navy. In peace time those boats could do useful work fishing.

I do not think that the money used on whatever boats we possess has been well used. We have seen the big white chief sailing around our coasts visiting Connemara, the Aran Islands and the other remains of our noble empire. I think that kind of ballyhoo should be finished with once and for all.

The same applies to the short-wave radio station. According to one Opposition Deputy, we need a short-wave station in case there is another war. Another Opposition Deputy said we require such a station to spread our culture in America and Australia, to let the people over there know what is going on in Ireland. We have a representative there within the past few weeks. He was in America not so long ago. I hope he prolongs his stay. We have plenty of short-wave stations in England already that can, in no uncertain fashion, tell the story of the past 16 years. They are the emigrants who left this country because of the maladministration of the men now sitting on the Opposition Benches. The Minister for Finance has stated that there was no wavelength got or no permission obtained prior to the commencement of the erection of this short-wave station. In addition to that, I would like to say that no matter what way they directed the beam from a short-wave broadcasting station functioning or operating here from Ireland, not 10 per cent. of the people in America would be in a position to pick up the programmes. You have only to turn on your own radios and listen to American programmes to see how they are jammed. Yet we are expected to furnish a short-wave broadcasting station here to cater for America and countries far away.

I had great pleasure last night—or shall I say that I was very interested— listening to Deputy Bartley describe the wonderful job that Fianna Fáil had made of the transport services in the West of Ireland and particularly in the locality which he represents. He told me from the opposite side of the House that I evidently did not know the geography of Connemara. I can assure that Deputy that I know the geography of Connemara quite well and I know also the services which he boasted were given there by Fianna Fáil. As a member of any Party I would not like to accept any responsibility for those services. As I said previously in this House, they were primarily responsible for uprooting the one life-line which Clifden had, the Connemara railway line, and through the ignorance of some Deputies on the opposite benches we were told that that decision was taken prior to 1932. I would have it known that that decision was taken in 1935 under the Fianna Fáil administration and the main life-line from Galway City to Clifden, a distance of 50 miles, was cut in two by the Fianna Fáil administration. The large-sized town of Clifden was left with one bus during the height of the emergency. That is the way to treat the Gaeltacht. That is one reason why we see to-day young men and women walking ten or 12 miles to Galway City in order to catch the boat train for the mines of England. That I presume is the service which Deputy Bartley referred to, the train service from Galway to Dublin carrying emigrants away. It is certainly good enough for that.

He is worried about the turf in Connemara. I do not want to waste the time of the House talking about the turf situation again. If all the time that has been devoted to discussing turf was spent in cutting it we would have twice the supplies in the Phoenix Park and that, I am afraid, would be more waste. There is no question or doubt that the West of Ireland, Galway, Mayo and Roscommon are the counties primarily hit by the cessation of the hand-won turf scheme. But if Deputy Beegan or Deputy Bartley go down to the county surveyor or the county manager in Galway and ask for the returns of unemployment, they will find that not one man in either Galway or Roscommon will be disemployed as a result of the cessation of that scheme. I think that some of these Deputies are very familiar, more familiar than I am, with county councils and county managers. I was amazed recently when I visited two public institutions in Galway, the Central Hospital and the Sanatorium. As a result of that visit a Deputy asked the county manager at the meeting of the county council if a public representative had the right to visit those institutions.

I asked him why you visited them without notifying the county manager or the matron in charge. I would be very slow to visit a hospital in Roscommon without permission.

I am glad to hear that. I wanted to get the Deputy on his feet. It amounts to the fact that Deputy Beegan was very insulted or very hurt because I took it on myself to pay a courtesy call on Galway Central Hospital and Sanatorium. If I wanted to visit those institutions, Deputy Beegan imagines that I, as a public representative, should first have asked permission of the county manager. As a public representative for the past 15 or 20 years or whatever length Deputy Beegan is here, he shows a terrible lack of information or knowledge in regard to the powers and privileges attached to the position of Deputy of this House. I am sorry to refer to this matter here——

It has not got much to do with the Budget.

I introduced it on the question of turf.

I did not know that they cut turf in Galway Hospital.

The county manager in Galway is one man who has made it quite clear that he is not very interested in the burning of turf and it was primarily on the question of the burning of turf that I wished to refer to the county manager and the County Council of Galway. I think, as I have said elsewhere, that in institutions in these counties the primary fuel should be turf. The turf scheme as a whole should never be relegated to the position of a minor industry in this country. It is something that must be kept up and, though at the moment the hand-won turf scheme has disappeared, that does not mean the end of the whole turf industry and it would be a shame if it did. The idea is, of course, that turf can be produced locally in the vicinity of these institutions at competitive prices and one could do away with subsidies if county councils or institutions could purchase turf at competitive prices. As a result of the competition, they would be enabled to give the very best quality of turf.

I do not agree entirely, or rather I am not satisfied with the distance this Budget has gone. We all know that the primary industry in this country to-day is agriculture and that as a result of bad administration agriculture is in a low state. When our only primary industry is in a low state, it follows that subsidiary industries and anything else in the country must be in a bad state also. Until such time, therefore, as agriculture, our main industry, is put on its feet, we cannot hope for the progress which we expected for the past 16 years.

I am glad to see that in such a short space of time that this new Government is in office it has faced up to facts and it has faced the future in the right spirit. They are prepared to cut out this extravagance and to make retrenchment where retrenchment is necessary. If they keep that up, undoubtedly as Deputy Madden said, the wilderness into which Fianna Fáil have now been cast will not alone envelop them for five years but will envelop them for ever and wipe them out of existence.

The last speaker, like other members of his Party, has approved of the Budget with reservations. There should be no hedging on a matter of this kind. It is too important. In a Budget there is enshrined or, at least, there should be enshrined, the policy of the Government. These reservations and these expressions of dissatisfaction are not healthy, and if the people who make them imagine that they are creating a state of stability in industry or agriculture, they are making a very grave mistake. There has been a great deal of claptrap during the debate. We have heard a great deal about racketeers, excess profits and all the rest of it. At a time like this, the most opportune time that any Government ever had for expanding industry, people should be very slow to give expression to such veiled insinuations as have been made here. I heard it alleged here last night in regard to the licences and quotas given by the previous Government that they were given on a basis of political patronage. The files are now available in the Departments and if there were any such thing as political patronage, now is the time to come out with it. I challenge the Government to do so. The allegation was trotted out all over the country during the election campaign that all the State-sponsored companies were manned by quondam supporters of the Fianna Fáil Party. It was even alleged that all the official positions in these companies also were filled on a political patronage basis. If anyone looks to Bord na Móna or even to Aer Lingus or any of the other State-sponsored concerns, he will easily see that there is no scintilla of truth in any of these allegations.

Ah now, did not Deputy Moylan say that he would appoint the man best politically qualified?

Yes, he said he would appoint the man if all other considerations were equal.

No, that was the gloss put on it afterwards.

Deputy Beegan is in possession, without a gloss.

Let us go back now to Aer Lingus or Bord na Móna and whom do we find holding the key positions in any of them—the people that opposed us in the Civil War 25 years ago. They were not penalised. They merited the positions they got. So much for the charge of political patronage that has been alleged against Fianna Fáil.

It is not alleged; it is admitted.

This Budget does not indicate in any degree the implementation of the promises that were so lavishly made by the various Parties that now form the Government. We were to have full employment; we were to have an expansion of industry and agriculture; the national resources were to be exploited to the full; we were to have a reduction in the cost of living, not by 13 points, such as was given by Fianna Fáil in the Supplementary Budget of October, but by 30 per cent. and that reduction was to be effected even if it meant subsidisation. These were some of the spotlights in the programmes that were put before the electorate. The question of turf was mentioned. It was mentioned this evening by Deputy Commons. It was mentioned again by Deputy McQuillan. Deputy Commons, of course, alleged, again, that if Fianna Fáil were still in power the hand-won turf scheme would have been discontinued.

Is that so?

It was decided on the 12th February.

I have here a document issued by Bord na Móna to all their supervisors and gangers setting out the rates of wages that were to be paid to sleansmen, to wheelers and spreaders, boys and girls, in Galway and Clare for the 1948 season.

What is the date of that?

The date is January, 1948. I hold that that is stronger proof of what Fianna Fáil meant to do than has been put forward from the Government side of the House.

What did they decide on the 12th February?

We will hear a little more about that at a later stage.

Ask Deputy Lemass.

What was decided in the Estimates? What about the £1,900,000 that was to be spent on turf and what about the increase to Bord na Móna to carry on the hand-won turf schemes that were previously operated by the county councils?

You know the decision taken on the 12th February?

I know nothing of the kind.

Deputies must be allowed free speech. Deputies not willing to give that may retire.

Even if that decision were taken on the 12th February, anybody so interested in bog workers and in their conditions as Deputy Davin and others like him are, should not endorse it in this House. Deputy Davin should be one of the first to get up here and make reference to it and have that state of affairs altered, if that is true.

The Deputy will not misrepresent me in my constituency, as he has been doing.

I have never gone into the Deputy's constituency.

By his speeches.

I want to know what sections of the community will suffer most by the economies that are being effected. Food subsidies are being curtailed by £3,015,000. Advocates of the Labour Party have always expounded the theory that it is the wealthier sections of the community should be taxed and that there should be a more equitable distribution of wealth. As far as food subsidies are concerned, the curtailment is of very little concern to the wealthier sections. Even when things were in very short supply, the wealthier sections managed to get their requirements somehow and somewhere, even despite the rigid control we had here.

Hear, hear!

The same will apply now. National Health, Unemployment Insurance and the Widows' and Orphans' Investment Fund are raided to the extent of £900,000. Where will that have its reactions? A number of persons who were liable as employees to contribute to national health insurance had their contribution paid by the employer. If the contribution is now doubled and brought to one shilling a week, does anybody imagine that the employers will continue paying? I heard the mention made by a Deputy from Limerick that it was difficult for the farmers to carry on there, that they had to pay £80 a year to an agricultural labourer. We do not claim to be a primary producing county, but if he comes to Galway he will find that agricultural labourers are paid, in addition to their board, as high as £85 and £90 a year. When we have to pay the increase in National Health, it will be taking something more from them.

We have heard a good deal about this increase it is proposed to give the old age pensioners. We are all glad to hear of it. We have been twitted that we went into the division lobby and voted against it in November, 1946. We voted against a motion that was nothing short of insanity, which proposed to give the old age pensioner £1 5s. 0d. a week.

You voted against the motion in 1947 regarding the means test.

The means test is an eloquent thing to put up. It looks lovely, this modification of the means test; but I hope that when the means test is being modified a number of things will be taken into consideration as far as rural Ireland is concerned. It is one thing to raise the ceiling of the income level, but what about the assessment value of the means? Can I get an assurance from the Minister for Finance or from the Minister for Social Welfare that the existing values are to be left the same? If they are not, and if values are to be increased in proportion to the increase in the values of live stock and tillage produce, the means test will have to go up very much, not merely to £50 or £60 but to £100, before the recipients in rural Ireland will be any better off than they are at present.

They had not much chance of going up in your day.

I know what I am talking about. Before we were circularised by the Fianna Fáil Minister not to approach the assessing officers, I was there on several occasions and I went into cases in detail with them, and I know the values. The values are the same to-day, and were all during the Fianna Fáil term of office and during the years from 1939 onwards, as they were away back in 1917 or even in 1911. There was no increase at all in the values assessed on live stock. That is what I hope will be borne in mind when this modification of the means test comes about. The sum of 17/6 is an improvement, but it is not the very big improvement that we heard about. We heard a lot about £1 5s. 0d. during the election campaign and we heard it in this House, too. But 17/6 is a far cry from £1 5s. 0d.

It is a big rise from 12/6.

It will be interesting to know how it will work out—this 2/6 and 5/- increase—out of the £600,000. Apparently, the increase is not intended to be given until September or October, if even then. We are told there are about 152,000 old age pensioners in the country whose cases are now being revised, and that there is about another 22,000, making 174,000; and in addition we have 34,000 widows and orphans, making a total of over 200,000. There are 52 weeks in the year and, although I am a poor mathematician, I believe you will not work out the average in each case very much more than a shilling per week over the whole lot of them, and that gives us an idea as to how the means test is likely to be modified.

The Deputy is in for an awful shock.

It will not shock me one bit.

Do not be downhearted, anyhow.

I am not. Hearing all this talk about the old age pensions— of course, it must be a tender spot— one would think there were no other sections of the community at all—I would like to see provision being made for the real producers of the wealth that would enable the State to pay this money, but I do not see very much sign of it in this Budget.

We heard a good deal of talk a while ago about those who walked 12 miles in Connemara to the railway station, but the tide of emigration has not been stemmed very much since the present Government came into office. In fact, it was never easier to emigrate to Britain. Previously, when an agricultural labourer, or a person cast in that category, went to the local employment exchange for a release—I suppose it was sent on to the Department of Industry and Commerce at that time— and it was found that he was in an agricultural district or in a bog area, he was notified that the regulations were such as would not permit him to emigrate and that he could find suitable work if he applied to the Manager of Bord na Móna, Newbridge. There is no such stipulation now. I suppose it is all for the better that there is not because, bad and all as emigration is, it is better to permit those people to emigrate than to keep them here unemployed. We have heard a great deal from the Labour benches—some of it this evening—regarding mineral exploration and so forth. A sum of £85,000 is being saved under that heading. If those people were sincere in their pronouncements regarding the exploitation to the fullest of our mineral and natural resources I do not think they would agree to that saving. How would they have reacted to it if that saving had been attempted when Fianna Fáil was in Government? I recollect hearing the present Minister for Social Welfare, when speaking on Budgets and Financial Resolutions, state that Fianna Fáil were a capitalist Government; that they were a conservative Party and that they were very concerned about increasing the national debt. He instanced Sweden and New Zealand where the national debt was so many times greater. "But" he said, "what about that? They are finding employment which gives a good wage to their people." Well, I think that the elimination of this £85,000 for the exploration of our mineral resources is not going to help to find that great employment. Apparently the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Norton, is now much more concerned about the increase in our national debt than he was when a member of the Opposition. The gem of all, in my opinion, of this saving and economy is the £10,000 that is being saved on the transfer of harvest workers. Is it because there are so many more unemployed now in the West of Ireland that the Government feel that they will be very glad to tramp on Shanks's mare to the Midlands and the eastern counties to find employment in the harvest? Remember that the agricultural farmers in Carlow, Kilkenny and other places were very glad to have their labour last year and the year before.

More than they will get the next time——

They were very glad to get them. Certainly they will get more than they got last year.

——because they are not unemployed.

Because there is no work for them and, as a consequence, the problem will be solved by emigration. That is the reason—and the road is being made very easy for them. This sum of £10,000 is small and, despite all we heard from the Opposition when we were the Government about the increase in State expenditure, it could easily have been saved on two Government Departments. It would have been saved on the Department of External Affairs and on the Department of Social Welfare. Of course, I will be countered, I expect, with the retort that Fianna Fáil established those two Departments. Yes, and we take the responsibility for the crime— if it is a crime. It was alleged to be a crime when it was done because, they said, it was creating positions for two new Ministers and also increasing expenditure. When the Department of External Affairs was a live, active Department—when it had to do something out of the ordinary routine during the six years of the emergency— it was supervised by the former Taoiseach. I am quite sure that the present occupant of the Taoiseach's Chair——

Of the Minister for External Affairs' Chair.

——could supervise equally well the Department of External Affairs and thus hold the dual seat of Taoiseach and Minister for External Affairs. It would not merely save this terrible extravagance of £2,125 that we heard so much about— that was given, of course, by the extravagant Fianna Fáil Party to Ministers —but it would also save an extra State car and the services of a driver.

That would be a good saving.

I am not saying that it would be a good saving. I am saying that the members of the Clann na Poblachta Party, in particular, when we were at the hustings before the election advocated it. But, of course, provision had to be made to fill the post in accordance with the new deal.

Can the Deputy state how often the Minister for External Affairs used his State car?

Nobody in this House I am sure, not even the members of his own Party, doubts Deputy Cowan's sincerity or his motive. The first time I ever doubted it was when he put down a question to the Minister for Finance the other day asking him if it was his intention to reduce the increased salaries to Ministers and allowances to Deputies and Senators. The Minister answered him in the negative. I was wondering why Deputy Cowan, in his sincerity and high-souled motive in the interests of the people of this country, did not, in view of the unsatisfactory reply that was given him, raise the matter on the adjournment.

Deputy Corry was there already.

There is no use in trying to by-pass this matter. It is important.

How did the Deputy vote on that matter?

I voted in the way——

Deputies

——you were told.

It was one of the things I would defend anywhere. It is like a lot more of the humbug that we hear about—excess profits and so forth, and racketeering and selfishness. A blow has been struck at the men who invested their money in industries in this country and who did a very good job under very trying circumstances.

For themselves.

What is held now for investors in this country and what they are told is——

The taunt is there. The implication, the inference and the veiled insinuation is there—"No honest industrialist in this country need have any fear from the present Government." The implied insinuation is there that a number of those who built up industries in this country have been selfish, unscrupulous thieves and scoundrels, with the result that people with money to invest in this country will, I am sorry to say, look further afield rather than be held up to that kind of odium.

Do you know where Maximoe is, anyway?

You did not get him.

That is more of it.

Where did your Government get the excess profits from?

The excess profits tax has been mentioned on several occasions during this debate. If there were excess profits made by a number of people why not go out now——

Where did you get them from?

Deputy Beegan is entitled to speak without interruption.

I do not know what Deputy Davin means.

Where did you get the £4,000,000 per year from?

It was given back. After all, if a certain number did make excess profits, I do not believe that it is good policy to be making all this ramp about it now at a time when no Government ever had as good an opportunity of building up the industries of the country.

How many of them subscribed to your Party?

If that opportunity is missed within the next two years, this country will be perhaps in a worse position than it was before the industrial revival started. Yet the policy enshrined in this Budget and indicated by statements made by responsible members of the present Government is —of course it is good sound policy if you like—"You have got to tighten your belts; you have got to work harder; you have got to be more efficient; you have to be prepared to go into competition with the products of any other country." That is the implication that is there.

Are not these exactly the words of Deputy Lemass when he was Minister?

We know well the reply he got. Deputy Morrissey, as he then was, told Deputy Lemass that this was a way of trying to shelter——

Was Deputy Lemass right?

Make your speech and do not mind the interruptions.

When Deputy Lemass and the former Taoiseach made these statements we know how they were received both inside and outside this House. Of course the boot is on a different foot now.

A Deputy

It certainly is.

We do not grudge these people opposite their bit of fun and enjoyment. I do not see any sign of any great expansion in the social services that could not have been administered by the Minister for Health without having an extra Minister, with, of course, an extra motor car. I do not grudge him his car or his salary. I think that there is too much of that kind of flippancy carried on in this country. I should like to see in this House the best brains that we can get. If you have public men held up to ridicule and odium and told that they are earning their money by doing nothing, there are a number of able, intelligent and highly-educated young people who are not going to bother very much about the affairs of their country. They are going to find some other outlet for their ability rather than come into this House to look after the affairs of people who will decry them.

Is that not a suggestion of an armed rising?

Do not draw me out about an armed rising. It would be as well to leave that alone. Then we have another economy in connection with the loans to local authorities. We had the Labour Party in this House advocating that loans for housing, sanitation and hospitalisation should be given at a very reduced rate of interest—1 per cent. or 1½ per cent. We even had them advocating that loans should be given free of interest. When the previous Minister for Finance reduced the rate of interest from 4½ per cent. to 2½ per cent. the local authorities looked upon it as a step in the right direction. Of course, we have been promised some alleviation in respect to housing. I wonder is that to apply to individuals who intend building houses for themselves and seeking a loan under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act from the local authority? If it applies to them as well as to the local authorities, well and good. If it does not, it is going to inflict what would be regarded, I am sure, by the Labour Party, if Fianna Fáil was in power, as an unjust burden. Take a man who gets a loan of £400 through the county council under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. Previous to the 5th May he could get that loan at 2½ per cent.. plus one-half of 1 per cent. charged by the county council for administration. Now he will have to pay 3¼ per cent. plus a half of 1 per cent. for administration, if he borrows through the local authority.

Perhaps the Minister is going to adjust the matter. Then the local authorities borrow for sewerage schemes, water schemes, hospital equipment, etc.

May I ask the Deputy when was money advanced under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act in his county?

That is an awkward question.

It is not one bit awkward. We were having a scheme drafted which was to be approved of by the Galway County Council. It was to be discussed and finally ratified, perhaps amended, at the next meeting of the county council. That was before the Budget and the borrowers would get the loan at 2½ per cent., plus a half of 1 per cent. interest for administration purposes. Of course they will have to pay a bit more now.

Wait and see.

Of course that is a matter of no consequence. It would be a matter of great consequence if it had been brought into operation by the terrible Fianna Fáil Government that Deputies opposite were so anxious to get out of the way. Deputy Dunne the other evening said that the Minister for Finance was very vague in his statements regarding the standstill Order, but that he believed it only referred to the profits of industrialists and manufacturers.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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