Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Jul 1948

Vol. 112 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 29—Agriculture (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the motion:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy Smith.)

Captain Cowan

When I moved to report progress last night, I was making the suggestion that this House is hardly the appropriate place to discuss the technical details of agriculture. Quite a considerable period of time was wasted on discussions regarding Friesians, Jerseys and Guernseys. Might I suggest to the Minister that agriculture is a very involved and comprehensive matter and that it ought to be dealt with, particularly in regard to these technical aspects, by its own parliament? I would suggest that, during his period of office, the Minister should take the necessary steps to set up a national agricultural council, where all these technical matters as they affect farmers, could be discussed and decided upon by the people who are competent to discuss them and decide upon them.

That organisation might extend through regional councils right down to the parish council. The parish council could be the responsible unit for dealing with the machinery that is to be provided on a co-operative basis for the farmers. I feel that, if that were done, agriculture would be entirely in the hands of the people best able to deal with it. I make that suggestion— the only contribution I intend to make to this debate—to the Minister as a method whereby farming and agriculture could be removed entirely out of the ambit of ordinary Party politics.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

There is a certain atmosphere of impatience, particularly on the Minister's part, on account of the protracted character of this debate. It is not as long as debates on this Estimate were on various other occasions I can remember during the past 15 years; but it is no wonder that the debate would be of a very wide character and embrace many subjects pertinent to the agricultural industry, in view of its nation-wide importance. I want to confine myself to a few points that particularly interest the people of my constituency.

In regard to dairying, there are two aspects of the problem which must be faced by any Minister or anybody who wants to improve matters. The first aspect of vital importance is the cattle breeding policy for dairying. When the Minister came into office, he acted with undue precipitation. Within 24 hours of taking office, he ended something that his predecessor had done; and anyone judging by the precipitancy with which the Minister acted could only come to the conclusion that he did it out of sheer crass prejudice and sheer pique, simply because his predecessor did something else. He did something that was altogether at variance with the ideas and views the Minister himself expressed on various occasions when he was on these benches in opposition. Deputy Corry quoted one extract from a speech made by Deputy Dillon, as he was then, in connection with cattle breeding. I cannot claim to speak with any authority on this and the only views I am giving are those I have collected from different wise, sound, far-seeing farmers in County Limerick with whom I have discussed this problem on various occasions for years past.

I admit at once that there is no unanimity, even amongst dairy farmers, with regard to this problem. Anyone who looks back over the years since the Livestock Breeding Act came into operation in 1925 must be convinced and admit that there is something wrong with the policy for which the Minister has now made himself responsible. Numbers of farmers with whom I have discussed this told me very emphatically that there is no such thing as a dual-purpose cow and that that whole business is a monstrosity— that you cannot have beef and milk, that if you want to have milk you must breed for milk. That was the attitude that was taken up by Deputy Smith— that he had given the matter serious consideration and serious examination and had consulted the people concerned. I protest on behalf of a very important dairying district—the County Limerick—which was for years in the first place in regard to production. I protest against the precipitancy of the Minister's change of front in regard to this matter. I think that this matter should be re-examined, and that the interests that are concerned should be consulted. I know that there are other interests that are in favour of the Minister's attitude, but these are interests that have been depending on the dairying districts since dairying became established as it is in this country to provide them with the stores, with the raw material, for their industry, which is the cattle export trade.

As I said before, if we want to have milk we must take the necessary steps to get it. I remember that when I was a young lad—it was before the Livestock Breeding Act was passed and before we had all these inspections and all these high-class bulls—there was an old breed of cattle amongst the farmers of the County Limerick that were very good milk producers. I do not want to say at all that the same difficulties that are there now for dairy farmers did not operate then. You always had trouble about disease in dairy cattle and you always had trouble about abortion. I remember when I was a young lad, away back 35 or 40 years ago, hearing discussions on these matters. I grew up in this atmosphere of dairying and I claim to know something at any rate about the people who are engaged in it and who make a living out of it. They are people who live by that industry and who have no side lines. They cannot afford to go out into a fair and buy the best cows possible if they find that they have a dud or a weed which they want to replace. They have to do the best they can to improve their herds by their own breeding methods—by trying to keep and to rear the best heifer calves they produce on their own farms and in that way to replace their stock. They have not big financial resources at their command and they cannot replace the bad elements in their herds at any time they like as a lot of theorists in this country can do who have plenty of money under their control. They have to carry on as best they can with the resources that are available to them.

Now, the milk produced from dairy cows has gone down since this Live-stock Breeding Act came into operation. It is probable that the Act improved the beef qualities of our cattle, but it has not by any means improved the milking qualities, and that is the important thing that we have to consider with regard to this in the future. As I said earlier, you cannot have the two things. That is the conclusion that I have come to from the various discussions and the information that I have gathered from responsible, sound and sensible dairy farmers in the County Limerick.

Now, the Minister made some reference to this in his opening statement. He spoke very scathingly of the people who go in for Friesians and other types of dairy cattle that we have in this country. The general consensus of opinion amongst the farmers in County Limerick, as far as I can gather, is that the Shorthorn should be the basis of our dairying industry, and that the breeding of stock with a milking strain should be based on the Shorthorn. But there are some farmers in the County Limerick who go in for the other breeds. Of course, that is a matter for themselves, and it is open to them, if they think that it is in their own best interests, to go in for the Friesians, or the Jerseys or the Guernseys as they see fit, and they should not be open to the sneers cast upon them by the Minister in his opening statement that they are only old cranks and old women if they did so.

The Minister has committed himself on previous occasions in regard to this subject. Deputy Corry, in the course of his speech on this Estimate, gave some interesting quotations from previous debates on agriculture in which Deputy Dillon, as he was then, took part. I have some other quotations from speeches made by Deputy Dillon, now Minister for Agriculture, when speaking here on the question of breeding. I propose to quote from Volume 93 of the Dáil Debates, column 431, of the 21st March, 1944. The Minister on that occasion said:—

"I hear a lot of talk about the dairying industry. There were few men in the public life of this country for whose opinion I had a profounder respect than the late Mr. Patrick Hogan, our first Minister for Agriculture. I confess that I am beginning to wonder whether the dairying industry as an industry can ever be successfully established on the basis of the dual-purpose cow."

I do not want to read the whole quotation. Neither do I want to take the Minister at a disadvantage by quoting out of the context or by selecting any excerpts that would suit my own argument. Later in that speech he said:—

"My experience all over the world is that what we call the Friesian cow appears to be the best type of beast for an exclusively dairy district. It is true that in the early stages of the evolution of that breed you did get a tendency to a very low butter fat content in its milk. But I am informed now by those who know that that difficulty has been largely overcome, that you now get on an average from any well-bred beast something between 3 and 4 per cent. butter fat content."

Mr. Dillon

I still believe that.

Mr. Allen

That was not your statement here.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

There is another portion of the speech which is very interesting in view of what the Minister said in his opening statement on Friday last about zoning. He said:

"I suggest that, if we are to maintain the dairying industry in this country we have got deliberately to review the convictions on which we have been operating during the last 20 years, and the review I suggest to this House that ought at least to be considered—because I do not want to profess myself as yet convinced— is that the country should be zoned —I am not advocating compulsion— and that in the dairy zone the Department of Agriculture's assistance and propaganda and development schemes should be founded on the Friesian cow. Let another area of the country be zoned for beef production and in that area let the whitefaced Hereford beast be the foundation of our planning. Then in another very large area of the country—the congested areas—let us realise that the mixed farming of our fathers is probably the most efficient method of farming small holdings. In those areas let us concentrate upon raising the Shorthorn breed to the highest possible standard that skill, research and breeding can achieve."

On that occasion, in the Deputy's opinion, as he was then, the people interested in Friesians were not cranks, old women or soreheads. Further on he said:

"I believe that the reason the dairying industry stands so often in need of assistance it because we have got on our farms far too high a percentage of cattle which are not economic—the 300- and the 350-gallon cow."

Everybody will agree with that statement.

Mr. Dillon

You are hopping a lot now. I see you turning the pages over.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Ní chloisim an Aire.

"I want to pass to certain matters of detail in regard to the live-stock industry. I have always strongly advocated, and do now strongly advocate, the substitution of the pedigree well-bred bull for the scrub bull, but I think we ought to consider this plain fact. There is no use in closing our eyes to it. In certain parts of the country you can send your cow ten times to the pedigree bull and she comes back unmoved. Send her once to the scrub bull and she has a calf nine months hence... I absolutuely refused to allow any of my cattle to go to the scrub bull. I insisted on their going to the pedigree bull. They went to the pedigree bull until their hooves were worn. In that situation I had either to sell them and get new stock or give way to the view of the countryman who works my land. He said: ‘Before we sell them, let us bring them once to the scrub bull.' They went to the scrub bull and every one of them is a comfortable matron to-day."

Mr. Dillon

Nach bhfuil sé sin ceart?

Donnchadh Ó Briain

I do not want to be unfair. There is another quotation from that famous speech:—

"I should like to see every bull in this country a bull which would be entitled on its merits to the premium of the Department of Agriculture but there is unquestionably a strong prejudice being created in the minds of the people against these bulls by the frequency with which cattle have to go to them before they can be got in calf. I have no doubt that that failure to get cattle in calf may be partially due to some condition in the cows."

These are all interesting excerpts from previous pronouncements of the Minister on the subject of the breeding policy in view of the statement he made when introducing this Estimate and in view of the action he took 24 hours after going into the Department in setting at naught the arrangements made by his predecessor. It was precipitate and an instance of what the Minister said he did not want to do when he made his statement that he did not want to act "like a bull in a china shop". I seriously suggest that with the views of men who have given serious thought to this matter, men who have worn their teeth in it in trying to develop their cattle herds and dairy stock, this matter should be re-examined and that the Minister should call up the consultative council established by his predecessor on the subject and go into the matter. He should reverse that decision if he is advised to do so because he acted without due consideration and, in fact, without examination of the subject at all.

The precipitancy with which he acted proved that. This policy will not give us more milk, and more milk from every individual cow for the creameries is what is required. The breeding policy that has been in operation for all these years will not give it to us, and that has been substantially proved by the deterioration from year to year during the past 25 years. That system which was introduced under the Live-stock Breeding Act of 1925 has failed and another system should be given a chance.

The next thing which is bound up with this question of dairying is the question of price. I am dealing altogether with the creamery industry and I am not going to touch on the supply to the towns. I have always taken a moderate point of view with regard to this and I think the dairy farmers would be wise to do the same. I have never made this matter of the dairying industry, and I never will as long as I am on these benches, a question of politics. It is an issue which is too important, too vital to the agricultural industry of this country to be made a shuttlecock of politics, as it was during the past 15 years. I notice, though, that the people who were so vocal during that period are very quiet now and have very little to say for themselves.

A demand was made for an increased price for milk supplied to creameries of 1/6 a gallon in summer and 1/8 in winter. The Minister said "no", that the present price was a very good one. I agree to the extent that relatively it is a good price. The price which was fixed by Deputy Smith early last year is the highest price for milk supplied to creameries ever received by dairy farmers in this country. The price trend during the last 25 years is very interesting. I got some figures in answer to a Parliamentary Question some years ago from, I believe, the Minister for Industry and Commerce who is in charge of statistics: "The price of milk supplied to creameries fell from 13.33 in 1920 to 4.47 in 1941," a disastrous fall. At the present moment as a result of the action of the previous Minister for Agriculture last year, it has reached the highest figure in its history, but the dairy farmers say that with all the increases in the cost of production, with all the accumulated difficulties that they have had to contend with, the price is not sufficiently high yet. I believe in moderation with regard to this matter. The Minister says truly that it takes a subsidy from the Exchequer of £2,250,000 to provide this price that was fixed some time in 1947. The subsidy was raised to that figure in order to provide the price of 1/2 a gallon in summer and 1/4 in winter which is available at the present time in ordinary well-worked creameries, and at the same time to provide that creamery butter could be sold to the consumers at 2/8 a lb. I know and appreciate the difficulties of the Minister and the Government in dealing with this matter.

There are only two things they can do. They can increase the price and increase the price of butter, but of course that would be unheard of in the Government as it is at present constituted. They cannot allow the cost of living to increase if they can prevent it and an increase in the price of butter would mean increasing the cost of living. I hold, however, that butter is still, even at its present price, one of the cheapest foods on the market and I would not hesitate to advocate if it is necessary in order to give the dairy farmers a better price, increasing the price of creamery butter to 3/- a lb., and I did not hesitate to advocate it before when it was not popular. Everybody is trying to have it both ways. They want dear milk and cheap butter but you cannot have the two. There is the easy way out of a State subsidy, a further increase in what the taxpayer is contributing to help this fundamental part of our agricultural industry. By taking either way, I admit that the Minister is in serious difficulty.

Mr. Dillon

There is a third way.

Donnchadh O Briain

There is grass. Mair a chapaill agus gheobhair féar. After all the treatment, it might not grow in places here and there. You have to take that into consideration also. But, for practical purposes at present, these are the two alternatives open to the Minister. If he proposes to provide any increase for farmers supplying milk to creameries, he will have to do either one or the other so far as I can see. We have been told on various occasions that dairying is declining, decaying and dying. There has been in County Limerick and all over the country a decrease since 1946. After the floods of that year and the terrible winter which followed it there has been a decrease in dairying stock. But the number of milch cows is more or less static, since figures became available for the cow population, around the 1,200,000 mark. Sometimes it went over it.

In 1936 it went up to the highest figure it ever reached in the history of the dairying industry. It went up 1,380,000. But to say that there is going to be a collapse of dairying altogether is not stating facts. I have heard that stated every year in County Limerick by certain people for the last 15 years—"if such-and-such a thing is not done dairying is going to collapse and farmers will go out of milch cows". They cannot go out of milch cows. That is the trouble. They have to stick to dairying whatever the conditions are. They had to stick to it all down through the years from 1920 to 1931, when the price of milk sent to the creameries fell from 1/1½, roughly, to 4½d.

This talk of dairying herds being sold by auction every year in County Limerick is all moonshine. There are, of course, auctions of dairy stock every year. There have been such auctions as long as I remember and there will be auctions as long as we are in existence. But only on very few occasions did the farmer get out of dairying because he was not working it successfully. One farmer got out because he had disease in his herd which he could not get rid of. Another farmer got out because he could not get his cows milked as his sons and daughters had gone to professions or to work in shops or at something else and he had nobody to do the work. Another farmer got out because he and his wife had got old and thought they should have the easy time to which they were justly entitled.

Another thing was that the competition of the live-stock trade during the past six or seven years militated against dairying to a certain extent. Certain farmers with large tracts of land found it more remunerative to go into the live-stock trade altogether. But there are farmers, and they are the majority, who will always remain in dairying, and these are the small farmers with eight, 10 or 20 cows. They have not large tracts of land to enable them to turn over any time they like to the bullock.

What I am pleading for is this. In view of the increased costs of production since the last price was fixed by the previous Minister—Deputy Smith— I think it must be admitted that there is a claim in reason and justice for an improvement in the price of milk to dairy farmers. There is another aspect of the situation which should be considered also, and that is a flat price all the year round. There are differences of opinion as to that. That is a matter which could be hammered out. If there is a price fixed, I think there should be a flat price all the year round. I do not know whether it is desirable to continue the variation of price in summer and winter. There are, as I said, differences of opinion about that, but I have given my personal view.

The next matter I want to refer to is the poultry scheme. I want to know where we stand with regard to that at the present moment. A number of poultry keepers are confused about it. Certain parts of the scheme are being administered by the county committees of agriculture and another part, a vital part, is administered from the Department offices so far as I understand. There are hundreds of poultry keepers and would-be poultry keepers who have applied for grants to improve the present housing facilities or to build new houses and who do not know where they stand. They have not been told by the county committees or by the Department what the position is. I do not know if the county committees understand it very well themselves. There is confusion as I say, and I think the Minister should clear the whole thing up.

This scheme was promulgated last November I think, and it did not meet with the approval of the Minister then I believe. I do not think he was very enamoured with it. He criticised it very severely I believe. Be that as it may, the scheme is there and I believe he approves of it now. I think, however, that it would be dangerous to go too far with it. We should remember the prospect in future of a glut of these commodities. "The old and valued customer" might not be altogether so generous then. The farmers and poultry keepers experienced that in 1930 and 1931 when the famous slump occurred and all down through the years following. They are not likely to forget it.

I do not think that we should go too far, push ourselves over the precipice, so to say, with regard to this scheme. There is, of course, need for reasonable development carefully planned and thought out. But we should have none of this wild talk which we have been hearing from the Minister. In any case, I want the Minister to clear up the confusion that exists in the minds of people with regard to this important scheme for the erection of suitable houses for poultry.

The next matter I want to mention is the ground limestone scheme. I understand the Minister is trying to get that produced in various parts of the country by private enterprise. I know parts of Limerick very well in which there are plentiful deposits of limestone. I understand, from a reply given by the Minister for Industry and Commerce some weeks ago to a question put to him by my colleague, Deputy Collins, that investigations in regard to Limerick limestone proved to be unsatisfactory. That may be so, but I would point out that in the town of Askeaton there is a very fine and efficient and successful lime works known as "Southern Chemicals". If the Minister is anxious to do something in County Limerick in that regard I would suggest to him that he might bear that works in mind, although it may not be suitable for his requirements. I should say that I have not consulted the directors of Southern Chemicals in that connection.

Mr. Dillon

I shall be very glad to have proposals from them.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

As things are at the moment, that works is operating on a very large scale. It employs 70 people and hydrated lime is being sent from there to the West of Ireland and, in fact, to all parts of the country. That very satisfactory industry was developed in 1934 or 1935 in place of the derelict lime industry which had gone out of production during the previous regime. I do not know whether these people would be prepared to touch it or not because, as I say, I have not had any communication with them about it.

I should like the Minister to give some explanation in regard to chocolate crumb. I understand that it is the raw material from which chocolate is manufactured. I read in the newspapers recently that exports of that commodity to Great Britain from this country, for the completion of the process of the manufacture of chocolate, have been greatly increased. It is a pity that we could not complete that process here if there were an export market for the finished article. However, I am anxious to know the position with regard to the amount of milk that is being used in the manufacture of this commodity—milk which would otherwise be turned into butter. From what I have gathered from the newspapers, some of these factories in England had, on instructions from the Ministry of Food, to cease production because milk for the manufacture of chocolate crumb could not be provided until the requirements of higher priority milk products had been met. I should like to hear from the Minister, when he is replying, by how many thousand gallons of milk he has increased the quota of chocolate crumb manufactured in this country and whether the increase that has taken place will have any effect upon the future butter ration.

When the Minister came into office he did away with the restrictions on the sale of cream. Will that have any effect on the future of the butter ration? After all, there has been a great deal of talk to the effect that cream is more or less a luxury because it is mainly used by the confectioners, hotels and catering establishments.

Mr. Dillon

About 6,000 cwts. of butter in the year.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

That represents a week's supply.

Mr. Dillon

Oh, not nearly.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

It looks small but in view of all the talk we heard from those Deputies who are now on the Government Benches about tourists coming to this country and eating the food which is so badly needed for our own community I would point out that the Minister is not being consistent.

When the Minister was introducing his Estimate he spoke about the growing of wheat. I am not going to develop any point about wheat growing as that has been spoken of already. He then spoke about the minority having rights. He was referring, of course, to this particular Party, although it is the largest and the most important Party in the House and in the country. The Minister must naturally have certain feelings and certain regard for minorities because he is in a minority of one in this House. He has been a minority in this country for many years past and he is a very pronounced minority in the constituency which he represents.

I did not say anything about the fitness of the Minister for the post he occupies. I am saying, without any intention of being hurtful to the Minister, that I think it is a disaster for the future of agriculture in this country to have that man in the position which he now occupies. If rumour speaks true it is an awful pity about the swop which took place between himself and Deputy MacEoin. We do not want to hear any of his condescending talk to us about minorities. We are perfectly fitted to look after ourselves. We are, as I say, the most important and the biggest Party in this House and in the country.

I hope that the Minister will reexamine this question of policy with regard to cattle breeding in so far as it affects the dairying industry and also that he will consider the position in regard to prices. If half the pressure from Fine Gael, Clann na Talmhan and the other Parties which was exercised during the past 16 years were utilised now that these Parties are in a position to press in regard to this question of milk prices I think they would get results. However, I am afraid that these people are speaking with two voices. I also hope that the question of milk prices will be re-examined from the point of view of giving some compensation to the dairying industry just as other sections of the community have got compensation for the increased costs that have accrued to their industries since the last price was fixed.

Mr. J. Flynn

I should like to make one reference to a particular scheme which is of very great importance to the people whom I represent. I refer to the scheme known as the Kerry cattle scheme in the Kerry cattle area. Under the Livestock Breeding Act of 1925, certain regulations were made whereby that area was scheduled as a special area. Provision was made that only bulls of a certain type could be allocated to that area and those were described as Kerry bulls. Subsequently these regulations were amended and the Department allocated other types of bulls to that area. As time has gone on we now realise that it was a mistake. The farmers of South Kerry want me to make a special request to the Minister that they will be allowed to choose their own type of bull whether it be the Kerry bull, a Shorthorn or any other type. So serious was this matter that Deputy Smith, the then Minister for Agriculture, went down to Caherciveen and met a deputation of all the farmers and interests concerned. Having heard their case, he promised certain adjustments but nothing has been done. I pay this much tribute to Deputy Smith as Minister for Agriculture. He was the first Minister who consulted with these people and who listened to all the arguments for and against. Nevertheless nothing has been done in the interval. The matter is a very serious one and calls for immediate attention.

The introduction of the so-called special-term bull into this district has only produced a mongrel type of cattle. Strange as it may sound to some Deputies in this House, the Kerry cow is unique. She is especially suited to the environment of the Kerry mountains. She thrives in that area; she produces good milk and good beef. No other type of dairy cow would prosper or be an economical proposition for the farmers in this area. Even if you remove her out of her environment into Dublin, Kildare, Meath or Limerick she will still thrive and give an excellent return. She is practically 100 per cent. free from tuberculosis. I would appeal to the Minister to take special steps to preserve that breed from extinction. In my opinion the money spent on the special-term bulls, so far as Kerry is concerned, is so much money wasted. I have a letter here from the secretary to the Farmers' Association in Caherciveen:—

"The point I want to make for us is that every farmer in the Kerry cattle area should be free to keep any type of bull he wishes.... The money spent by the Department in supplying the special-term bull to the area is showing no result.... The best results can be obtained only from pure breeds."

There are some pockets in South Kerry where special-term bulls are suitable provided they are mated with the purebred Kerry cow. That is not being done at present. These bulls are given haphazard all over the area at the moment and they are not mated with the proper type of Kerry cow. That is the crux of the whole scheme. Its success will depend upon proper mating. It is also mentioned in the letter that: "The scheme for the supply for special-term bulls as it is operated at present is producing only mongrel cattle."

He makes the further suggestion:—

"We have been hammering at the Department for some time to initiate some small scheme to induce and help farmers, by a small subsidy, to retain in the area good quality Kerry stock for breeding purposes. This would result in producing good quality heifers which would give increased returns in milk yields and in store cattle. Besides some such scheme is necessary to get the full benefit from the money now spent on the special-term bull scheme."

I hope that the Minister will do his utmost to meet our wishes in this respect. Nothing has been done since Deputy Smith, as Minister for Agriculture, visited the area and consulted with the local farmers.

Contrary to what Deputy Ó Briain has said, from my experience of the present Minister and my contact with him, I am confident that he will run the Department—instead of letting the Department run him, as did Deputy Dr. Ryan—for the benefit of the country and the farmers. I have every confidence because of the way in which he approaches his responsibilities that the Minister will make a success of his job.

Mr. Sheehan

Listening to the debate in this House, one would think that the present Government is responsible for the scarcity of milk and butter. If we are honest with ourselves we must admit that that is not so. If we want milk and butter we must have increased production. The way in which to get increased production is by paying the farmer a better price and giving him a guaranteed price for his produce. Farming is our principal industry and the men who run it and the men who work in it should be well paid for their labour. We sit here then and listen to men "talking through their hats". That is what the debate amounts to on this Estimate. The present Government has been only a few months in office and during that time they naturally could not produce spectacular results. We shall have to give them an opportunity during the next five or ten years. It is ridiculous sitting here waiting for the possibility of a snap division. We should think first of all of our country and we should have the interests of our country at heart if we are genuine and sincere.

Some Deputies said that we have ranches in this country. We have not. We must have fairly big farmers competent to take the yearling cattle off the hands of the smaller men. We should all co-operate with the Government. Fianna Fáil did the best it could. The present Government must be given its chance. I think the country as a whole is glad that there has been a change of Government. Some of the Fianna Fáil Party are getting old and they could not hope to run the country for the rest of their lives.

There is one point which I wish to raise but I do not think it comes within the scope of this Estimate. It relates to the Liquor Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise. It could not possibly arise.

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order, if the Deputy, the Lord Mayor of Cork, desires to inform the House that his name has been placed upon an official document in this House without his authority and, if he appeals to you for leave to make a personal explanation at any stage of the proceedings, I take it that you would accord him that permission.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is so.

Mr. Sheehan

It is in connection with the Liquor Bill. Deputy Corry put down my name and I did not know about it. In view of what the bishops have said about the Liquor Bill and in view of the remarks——

Mr. McGrath

The Deputy's name has been on the Order Paper for the past three or four months.

An Ceann Comhairle

The only point at issue is whether the Deputy allowed his name to be attached to the Bill. There is nothing more to be said now. The explanation can come afterwards.

Mr. O'Grady

And Deputy Corry is not present.

Mr. Sheehan

I was in England at the time and I never agreed that my name should be put to it. In view of what the bishops have said——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy was merely permitted to say whether or not he allowed his name to be put down.

Mr. Sheehan

In view of the remark that Deputy Corry passed to the Taoiseach the other day, when he said he had not the word of a dog, I withdraw my name from that Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is different.

Mr. McGrath

I am sure we are all very pleased with the Lord Mayor of Cork's advice to us, that we should co-operate with the present Government. I have not the slightest doubt that the Lord Mayor of Cork would co-operate with any Government that is in power —no doubt in the world about it. That is my opinion of his actions all along the line. He will go with the people who are in power, and do not have any doubt in the world about that. He was allowed to speak about Deputy Corry's Bill. His name has been on the Order Paper for at least four months.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no more to be said about that.

Mr. McGrath

Simply because it is not going to be popular now, the Deputy is objecting to it. I can assure the Minister that I know very little about agriculture, but I am interested in one matter, and that is the milk supply to Cork City. The Corporation of Cork have sent resolutions to the present Minister and to the former Minister asking to have the milk board area extended. We have always been told that there is no necessity for it. There were resolutions from various local authorities sent to the Cork Corporation on this subject. I have personal experience of children having no milk for their breakfast. I know the Minister has not power to compel farmers to deliver milk twice a day.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy's colleague, Deputy Corry, is a member of the milk board.

Mr. McGrath

Do you object to the statement I am making?

Mr. Dillon

Not at all, but why do you not talk to Deputy Corry?

Mr. McAuliffe

Perhaps Deputy Corry does not want an extension of the milk area in Cork.

Mr. McGrath

I am not interested in that aspect.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies must realise that members of the Opposition have a right to speak.

Mr. McGrath

They wanted to extinguish us yesterday, but they were not successful. I do not mind the swelled-headed Minister, because we all know his opinions. Deputy Corry is a member of the Cork Milk Board, but the Cork Milk Board also have applied for an extension. They applied on the 28th March, 1947, when Deputy Smith was Minister. I have here a letter from the chairman of the Cork Milk Board to that effect.

Mr. Dillon

That can be investigated at once.

Mr. McGrath

The position about the Cork milk area is that there are 205 registered producers, who were supplying milk before the board was formed. Every winter there are 50 producers called in to supplement the supply. Those 50 producers are not subject to veterinary inspection; their premises are not subject to the veterinary inspection the other people are subject to. I am informed that outside the Cork Borough area the veterinary inspection is carried on in a very haphazard way, with the result that within the past five or six weeks we have had prosecutions for sour milk. It was about the first time we had them in the Cork District Court.

When I approached the former Minister he told me he was quite willing to extend the area. The Cork Corporation and other local authorities have applied for an extension, but apparently the people in Dublin seem to know more about Cork than the Cork people themselves. That is the position. The suggestion was made at the Cork Corporation that the consumers should be represented on this milk board. We have the producers and the retailers on it and the suggestion was made that the consumers could be represented either by members of the local authorities or someone else. While nobody can compel farmers or retailers to deliver milk twice a day, I am sure if there were consumer members on the board they would be able to come to some happy settlement.

I have had experience in my own house in four or five instances this summer of milk being sour. There was no milk for the breakfast. That is the aspect of agriculture in which I am interested. Where I stay in Dublin the milk is delivered by 7 o'clock in the morning. It is either pasteurised milk or cooled milk. I have been speaking to some of the 50 outside producers who supply Cork during the winter under permit and they tell me that if they were registered they would instal cooling apparatus or some other modern contrivance that would help the milk. They are called upon, when the least profit is available to them, to help the winter supply of milk in Cork City.

I suggest the Minister should accede to the request made by the Cork Corporation and the Cork Milk Board to have the area extended. If he grants that request he will be doing a great day's work for the children and the people of Cork City.

Mr. O'Grady

There is one matter at least in which I find myself in agreement with the Minister—and it is very rarely, indeed, that I am in agreement with any of his statements. I have in mind his reference to the Young Farmers' clubs. I agree that these are very valuable institutions. They are bringing the young farmers together and helping to educate them so as to make them better farmers. Lectures have been and are being arranged throughout the country by officers in the Minister's Department and by officers of local authorities. These lectures are keenly looked forward to by those young men and, as the Minister said, so long as they avoid politics and maintain their independence I believe there is a bright future for them; but the moment they enter politics and become tied, as it were, like a battered tin can to some political Party's tail, as has happened to every farmers' Party founded in this country, then they will cease to serve any useful function.

It is assumed that the Minister armed himself with all the necessary information—and accurate information at that—which is available to him, and that when he comes to make statements in this House these statements are accurate in so far as it lies within the power of the Minister to secure that accuracy. One of his statements when introducing this Vote is recorded in col. 2588 of Vol. III of the Parliamentary Debates for the 9th July, 1948. It is:—

"The first consideration to which I have to direct the attention of the House is that at the beginning of this year we find ourselves in the remarkable position that the live-stock population of this country has fallen to the lowest levels that have ever been known in our recorded history."

I presume that before making that statement the Minister sought the necessary information to confirm it. What are the actual facts? According to figures supplied in detail by the Minister, the total cattle population was 3,948,061. That is from the recent census. In 1931—that is going back 17 years to the end of the period of the Cumann na nGaedheal régime— the cattle population was 4,029,084.

Mr. Dillon

Well?

Mr. O'Grady

That is a reduction of 81,000, but the Minister did not give any further figures nor did he give any explanation as to the possible cause of the recent reduction in the cattle population. If he wanted to be fair and to inform the House, he could have given a few more figures without going too far back into ancient history. He could have gone back to 1946 a year previously, or to 1945 just two years previously. I propose to take him back these few years. In 1946, the cattle population was 4,210,840 and in 1945 4,245,000.

Mr. Dillon

It has gone down by 250,000 in two years.

Mr. O'Grady

Would the Minister and those who are interested, and I think everybody should be interested, inquire into the possible causes of the comparatively recent fall in cattle production? In 1946, the cattle population was 4,210,840 and by 1947 that had fallen under the 4,000,000 figure.

Mr. Dillon

So it had.

Mr. O'Grady

Why?

Mr. Dillon

Tell us.

Mr. O'Grady

We can only surmise and my surmise might be as good as that of the Minister. Possibly the Minister has forgotten that there was a very severe winter in 1946-47, one of the severest the world has ever known, and that the cattle mortality in consequence was very high. I think that can scarcely be contradicted. That is one cause, if not the major cause, for the sudden drop in the cattle population between 1946 and 1947. The Minister may smile.

Mr. Dillon

And the price of calves was 10/-.

Mr. O'Grady

We are back on the calves again but we shall deal with that. The Minister used to be the loudest to proclaim the rights of every Deputy, no matter how obscure, to stand up here in Leinster House and express his views and used to say that while Deputy Dillon was sitting on these benches he would insist on that right, but the moment a member of the Opposition now gets up to express his views, the Minister, like his colleague the Minister for Finance, by these interjections, thinks he is going to throw him off the track, but if he thinks he is going to throw me off the track he is making a mistake. Deputy Sweetman may laugh. I have been in politics perhaps since Deputy Sweetman was born and I will not be so lightly put off my track as the Minister or Deputy Sweetman thinks. I cannot quite understand what Deputy Sweetman is saying. If he wants to interject, he should speak in an audible fashion. The only occasion on which I remember meeting the Deputy was on one occasion in my native constituency when I obliged him with my platform. I think the Deputy should now extend the same courtesy to me and that I should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Mr. Sweetman

I remember an occasion when Deputy Sweetman was advertised to speak and Deputy O'Grady was not, and Deputy Sweetman gave Deputy O'Grady the right to speak without interruption.

Mr. O'Grady

That was awfully kind of the Deputy! He was not even a Deputy at the time but he allowed me to speak in my own constituency! I am very grateful to him. However, that does not alter the cattle population.

Mr. Sweetman

Hear, hear!

Mr. Dillon

Not by a calf.

Mr. O'Grady

Not by one calf. In 1931 the figures were 4,029,084. I make a present to the Minister of the fact that in 1947, according to his figures, there was a drop of 81,023. But we can go back a little further even. We should like to refresh the Minister's memory and the memory of those who sit behind him. In 1921——

Mr. Dillon

Oh!

Mr. O'Grady

That is not so very long ago. I have a very vivid recollection of it, though some of the new babes on the other side of the House may not recollect it.

Mr. Dillon

Are we going to start a discussion on the civil war?

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Mr. O'Grady

I have not said a word about the civil war. The Minister need not think that he is going to throw me off my track. I submit that I am entitled to make my speech without let or hindrance from the Minister. I am not going to put up with interruptions from him. I appeal for that protection to which the Minister, when he was sitting here, often referred. I am entitled to that protection and I am looking to you, Sir, to give it to me.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have it.

Mr. O'Grady

In 1921 the cattle population was 4,419,347 and by 1931, after ten years of the Cumann na nGaedheal régime, it had fallen to 4,029,084. Can the Minister or those who sit behind him give a word of explanation of the catastrophic drop that occurred in these ten years? I have attempted to give an explanation of the sudden drop between 1946 and 1947. I hope that the Minister in replying, will advert to these figures and that he, in turn, will give an explanation of the fall in numbers between 1921 and 1931. But that is not the point I was seeking to make when I got on my feet. The Minister is very careful, but Deputies of all Parties in the House will have reason to doubt the accuracy of his statements. He said that the live-stock population had reached the lowest levels that ever have been known in recorded history. Is that true? Is it founded on fact? In 1911, the cattle population was 3,947,718.

In 1901, a little further back but still in this century, the cattle population was 3,867,891 and that is in recorded history, although the Minister stated that the numbers at present were the lowest ever recorded. I do not want to delay the House by going back further, but if the Minister wants to check up, he can look up the figures back to 1861 when statistics began to be recorded and he will find that that statement which he made to the House is not true and is not founded on fact. So much for the accuracy of the Minister's statement.

The next matter to which he referred was soil fertility and, in that also, I presume he was equally accurate. "We have reached a degree of degradation lower than has been known for 100 years past." I do not want to read the whole passage, but I do not think I am being unfair to the Minister when I take that extract from it. If he or the House wishes, I will read it all. It is in column 2589 of Volume III, No. 19, of the Official Reports.

Mr. Dillon

Can you not read it right when you are reading it at all?

Mr. O'Grady

Do you want me to read the whole speech?

Mr. Dillon

Read the paragraph you are pretending to read, but read it honestly and correctly.

Mr. O'Grady

"But when I tell the House that the fertility of the land in this country——"

Mr. Dillon

"The fertility." You left that out the first time. You are blooming innocent, are you not?

Mr. O'Grady

"But when I tell the House that the fertility of the land in this country has reached a degree of degradation lower than has been known for 100 years past and that we have endemic in many parts of the country a condition known as aphosphorosis, in which live stock consume the herbage of the soil and yet die of starvation because the soil contains no phosphates, and the grass growing thereon provides no phosphorus in the diet of the animals consuming it and the animals consequently die of deficiency disease——"

I think that is as far as I need go. I did not interntionally refrain from quoting the entire extract.

Mr. Dillon

You left out the word "fertility" the first time you read it.

Mr. O'Grady

If I did, it was unintentional on my part.

Mr. Dillon

Was it not fortunate that I was able to check you?

Mr. O'Grady

Very well; we will make a present of that to the Minister, but it was not deliberate on my part.

Mr. Dillon

It was very lucky that I had the book here before me.

Mr. O'Grady

I gave the Minister the necessary reference to facilitate him. I presume the Minister would not have made that statement, unless he knew it was absolutely true. I wonder where he got the information.

Mr. Dillon

The same place as your colleague, who said it yesterday, got it.

Mr. O'Grady

I have not heard a colleague of mine say any such thing. The Minister does not say where he got the information, but the Minister is basing his information on the fact that a number of his friends down the country who are hostile to the wheat-growing campaign continued to sow wheat on the same land year after year, until the land became wheat-sick, and then he comes in here and tells us that soil fertility has been reduced appallingly. Of course, it has, in those particular areas. Deputy Davin adverted to that fact last night and he went further than even Fianna Fáil proposed to go when he suggested, without actually stating, that there should be some form of compulsion to make these people do their duty in regard to cultivating the land as Deputy Davin would wish them to do it.

The Minister proposes to restore this soil fertility by means of the application of chemical manures. Perhaps it was a mere coincidence or an oversight on his part that he did not advert to what is an even more important factor, as every farmer knows, the use of farmyard manure. Why did the Minister or any of the spokesmen behind him not advert to that factor? Surely farmyard manure is at least of equal importance, but there is no one to boost farmyard manure and no one to give big dinners and make after-dinner speeches in favour of farmyard manure. If there were, we might have a higher appreciation of it in certain quarters.

Mr. Dillon

The picture of Goulding's being in love with me—God help us!

Mr. O'Grady

We have known Ministers to make one statement prior to an election and another statement afterwards.

Mr. Dillon

Muise, is fíor é sin.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Grady must be heard without interruption.

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order, are Deputies properly heard when they try to suggest, but are too cowardly to do so, that I am bribed by manure manufacturers in this country?

Mr. Kissane

He said no such thing.

Mr. O'Grady

The Minister is very thin-skinned.

Mr. Dillon

Not a bit.

Mr. O'Grady

I made no such suggestion.

Mr. Dillon

Agus gheobhaidh tú sin amach.

Mr. O'Grady

Even before the Minister had a hope of occupying the position he now occupies, that situation was as true as it is to-day. There were a lot of people boosting the sale of chemical manures, but no one boosting the sale of farmyard manures.

Mr. Dillon

The sale?

Mr. O'Grady

There is such a thing as the sale of farmyard manure. Perhaps the Minister never heard of it?

Mr. Dillon

I could imagine the Deputy doing it, but I cannot imagine many others doing it.

Mr. O'Grady

The Minister has a wonderful imagination.

Mr. S. Collins

The Deputy is not doing so badly.

Mr. O'Grady

I did not hear what the corncrake said.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have said that the Opposition have a right to be heard. Those who will not accord that right will have to leave the House.

Mr. O'Grady

I was anxious to hear what the corncrake said, but I did not catch the remark. I was referring to the fact that the Minister hopes, by the use of chemical fertilisers, to restore the fertility of the soil. I submit that that is impossible, and that the Minister, in making that statement, overlooked many vital factors. Chemicals alone may restore the chemical composition, but they are no substitute for farmyard manure for the restoration of the physical condition of the soil. Rather should they be used in conjunction with farmyard manure. The judicious use of chemical fertilisers, in addition to farmyard manure, is what the Minister should recommend rather than to confine his remarks to the use of chemicals alone.

I am not decrying the use of certain manures, such as phosphates, potash and so on. I am aware that most of the land in this country is deficient in phosphates, potash and other essential fertilisers. Consequently I do not decry their use but we should not over-emphasise the use of chemicals and at the same time neglect the production of farmyard manure. That is the point I am coming to. In order to produce farmyard manure you must have housing and that is why the Minister sought to divert me from the course I was proposing to adopt in dealing with this matter for he knew that I was going to refer to the fact that he had abandoned the farm building scheme in order to save £250,000 instead of going ahead with the erection of farm buildings to enable the farmers to house their live stock and thus produce the manure so essential to their economy. He did not explain, of course, that he had abandoned that very useful scheme or, rather, he gave two different explanations, as is characteristic. First and foremost, it was scarcity of cement. Contractors could not get cement, he told us, to plaster the gable end of the House of God and surely it should not be expected that an ordinary farmer could apply for and get cement. At a later stage he prophesied that if he got Marshall Aid everything would be all right and that he could go ahead with the building scheme. I will have to leave it to Deputies to draw their own conclusions as to which of these he meant.

He is also going to erect lime kilns on a large scale all over the country. Again I do not want to be misunderstood nor do I want to misquote the Minister or to convey an impression different from that which he sought to convey. But, there is an old adage that we all heard in our youth—too much lime without manure will make the farm and the farmer poor. When I say that I do not deny that over the larger part of this country lime is absolutely essential but what the Minister did not advert to, and what no other speaker has adverted to, is the fact that in certain parts of the country where the land is highly alkaline, the use of lime is a poison rather than a manure. Before embarking on the large scale use of lime every farmer would be well advised to make sure that the land is in need of lime by having a chemical analysis carried out or by other means. The ordinary agricultural instructor in the area would be able to advise him at a glance having regard to certain herbs and plants growing on the land whether it is or is not in need of lime. It is only right that a warning voice should be raised lest farmers would waste their money putting out lime where it is not needed and perhaps deny the land other fertilisers for which it is crying out.

I would like to add my voice to those who have appealed to the Minister to reconsider the whole situation regarding the Livestock Breeding Act and its effects on the cattle population. It is obvious to everybody that good quality milch cows are in scarce supply and have been for some years, despite 25 years of the operation of that Act which was brought in, without a shadow of doubt, in the best interests by those who sponsored it. The intention was to improve the live stock of the country but it has not worked out that way. It has not worked out in the way that those who sponsored it hoped. That being so, after 25 years' experience of the Act, I would suggest to the Minister that he would be well advised to consider the whole situation and see how much further we will go along that road or if it is not time to cry halt and to see what can be done to improve the cattle population and so make more milch cows available to the farming community.

The milch cow is the basis of our economy. Our whole agriculture depends on the number of these cows in the country. Unless a satisfactory price is given to those engaged in milk production, the cow population is bound to be reduced. Without cows, we cannot have calves; without calves we cannot have stores. Our whole live-stock industry depends, therefore, on whether a satisfactory price is given to those engaged in milk production. I do not envy those who are engaged in that production. I would not enter it at any price. I think the community will have to come to the rescue of those who are engaged in it and give a price that will compensate them for the very arduous work which is involved, so that the people who are not using as much milk as is necessary, particularly people in the towns, will be able to get adequate supplies.

As a result of a drink-more-milk campaign in England, consumption of milk has gone up enormously. It would be useless having a drink-more-milk campaign here until we are in a position to supply but, if we were in a position to supply increased quantities of milk the market could be got for it at our doors. The first essential is that those engaged in the production must be given a fair price.

As one-half of our farmers are engaged in milk production for the manufacture of farmers' butter, I think it was a terrible mistake on the part of the Minister to abolish the subsidy on farmers' butter because that will discourage the farmers. It was the farmers who were engaged in the manufacture of farmers' butter who also went in for calf-rearing on a large scale. After a few years the Minister will probably see that he has made a serious error of judgment in taking that action against those farmers. Deputy Fagan, of course, who comes from the Midlands, and who is generally regarded as a representative of the live-stock industry, has told us that he is going to go in for milk production and, as a natural corollary, we presume, to cut out fat cattle altogether. We shall see but, as the Scotsman says: "I ha'e ma doots." I do not think Deputy Fagan for all the innocence he professes in the House, is so foolish as all that.

Mr. Fagan

On a point of explanation. I never said any such thing. I will keep on all branches of farming, as I always did.

Mr. O'Grady

If I have misquoted the Deputy I am sorry, but my recollection of what he said, and I was listening to him, was that he would expand the dairying——

Acting-Chairman (Mr. Sweetman)

Deputy Fagan has assured Deputy O'Grady that he did not say it. In the absence of the Official Report the Deputy must accept Deputy Fagan's assurance.

Mr. O'Grady

I am accepting it. I do not doubt his word. But, on the other hand, I do not want to leave Deputy Fagan or the Chair or the House——

Mr. Fagan

I never said it. I will keep on all branches of farming.

Mr. O'Grady

The Deputy has said that and I accept it.

Acting-Chairman

That is accepted, Deputy.

Mr. Fagan

I will keep hens, ducks, and everything.

Mr. O'Grady

I am delighted to hear that. Unquestioningly, I have accepted the Deputy's explanation but, on the other hand, I am entitled to say, I think, that I understood the Deputy to say that he was increasing the number of cows and going in for extra milk production. I do not think I am wronging the Deputy in saying that that, naturally, means a reduction in other live stock. That is the only reference I wish to make to Deputy Fagan's statement, but I will be amazed if he carries out the promise which he has given us here. I would not, for one, and it is well to be honest about it.

I would like to refer to the limitation of our exports of fat cattle to the Continent. Under the recent agreement, the number of cattle which it is possible to send to any country other than Britain in the future will be limited to 10 per cent. We have developed in recent years a growing and valuable market on the Continent. Any Deputy who looks up the figures will find that that is so. In 1947, we sent to Great Britain 51,529 head of fat cattle valued at £1,682,744 and in the same year we sent to the Continent 58,104 of a total value of £2,451,736. The difference in price per head amounted to approximately £10. We have there developed a market of a total value of approximately £2,500,000. This market ought not lightly be thrown away, for it took a good many years of hard work to build up that market.

Mr. Seán Collins

And the slaughter of many calves.

Mr. O'Grady

The Deputy knows nothing about it, but I do. Calves have always been slaughtered in County Cork and other Munster counties. It was no new development at all. If the Deputy has not a more intelligent remark to pass, he should allow me to proceed. That market, of £2,500,000 on the Continent of Europe is to be limited in the future to 10 per cent., irrespective of what our cattle may be on the British market, irrespective of the fact that it is quite within the bounds of possibility that in the immediate future a market would develop on the other side, in America, for Irish fat cattle. That may be a source of amusement to some Deputies who know nothing about it.

Mr. Seán Collins

Is that what you are going to use the Constellations for?

Acting-Chairman

While a Deputy is in possession, no matter how provocative he may be, other Deputies must allow him to continue; but it would help if the Deputy in possession were not to pay attention to interruptions and would continue his speech.

Mr. O'Grady

Very well, I shall ignore all future interruptions. I was going to refer to the possibility that a market for live stock may be developed amongst the teeming population of the Eastern States of the United States of America. That may sound fantastic to some people, but we must not forget that we are almost as near geographically, and that it would cost less, to send cattle from here to New York than to take them from Chicago to New York, so great are the distances in that mighty country. It is well within the bounds of possibility that that market could be developed. Many years ago, people would sneer, and did sneer, at the idea of our having a market on the Continent of Europe, but a market to the tune of £2,500,000 has been developed so far. Those who know the Dublin Cattle Market—and I think Deputy Fagan would not contradict me in this—know that it was the purchases for the Continent during the past 12 months that kept the cattle prices in the Dublin market at the peak figure they reached during that time. We should not surrender our right to send cattle to America if we wish. We all remember that when a certain agreement was made between the British Government and the Argentine, the American Government showed their resentment and showed they had an interest in the importation of cattle from outside sources. We are at least as near to New York as the Argentine is to New York.

The Minister, in his statement some time ago, when referring to this matter, described those purchasers on the Dublin market as fly-by-night gentlemen. We are not so well off that we can afford to despise any customers, much less these very valuable customers. I do not think Deputy Fagan or others in that particular trade would approve of that description being applied to those very valuable customers.

Deputy Davin said he knew of a man who sowed 19 barrels of wheat and the produce amounted only to 18 barrels, and that he felt a certain amount of resentment. He said he would not advocate compulsion. No one likes to do that and it is not a very popular thing. He left the House under the impression that he would take strong steps to see that that man would not be allowed to carry on in that way. Every reasonable person will agree with that attitude, but the Minister has burned his boats by stating that while he is Minister no inspector of his Department, gaitered or otherwise, would be allowed in on the farmer's land. There will be no "pip-squeaks"; they will be kept far away. How, then, is Deputy Davin, who supports that Government, going to bring the rancher, as he describes him—the wheat rancher, if you will—to order, to compel him to cultivate his land and produce for the community the food which it is the duty of every owner, with or without compulsion, who is fortunate enough to possess land, to produce in the interests of the community? Those people cannot be induced—and when you speak of inducing some of these gentlemen whom I know to grow wheat, you must remember that they actually have decided to abandon that portion of the land which they were compelled to till, abandon it as dead land and cut their losses. Some of them even sowed, scattered broadcast, turnip seeds, pretending that that was cultivation. What are you going to do to bring these people to book? Will the responsible Minister permit that misuse of land to continue, merely because it is a popular thing to say that there will be no interference with the farmer?

Mr. Fagan

All that was done with inspectors.

Mr. O'Grady

We used inspectors for that laudable purpose in order to provide food for our people. If another emergency similar to this arises, if the Minister who occupies that bench as Minister for Agriculture does not do his duty, the people will have to put someone there who will. The Minister for Justice, for instance, has to do some very unpopular things, but he must not shrink from his duty and refrain from punishing criminals, simply because it is unpopular. A Minister must face up to these unpopular things. Our Ministers have done that and perhaps that is why we have the gentlemen sitting opposite. We will leave them in full possession of the temporary popularity they enjoy, but they will not be doing their duty if they fail to keep the people supplied with essential foodstuffs, in so far as it lies in their power to do so.

We heard some very adverse criticism from members of some of the smaller Parties last night, but it is not much good their criticising if they merely criticise so as to have their statements read by their supporters down the country. Unless these statements are followed by action, then their criticism is pretty hopeless. They say that every country gets the kind of Government it deserves. What has this unfortunate country done to deserve the Government it has to-day?

Mr. Kyne

I do not profess to have any practical experience of agriculture, but I desire to speak in this debate from the particular slant of the working people who elected me, a large number of whom are agricultural workers in the County Waterford. I consider it necessary to put their views before the Minister. From all sides of the House there has been loud praise for the agricultural community and a recognition of its importance to the country. I think we are all agreed that the agricultural labourers form the backbone of the agricultural industry. They, with the farmers, constitute the most important unit for the success of our agricultural policy. During the emergency, the farmers and the farm labourers were classified as front-line troops. The agricultural labourers, as we have heard here during the last few days, have been lauded to the skies as the most skilled workmen in the country.

I was present at a conference yesterday at which it was suggested to raise the wages of creamery workers to the level of £3 5s. per week. The statement was made to the deputation that it would cause a blaze of indignation throughout the country if anyone was paid a wage higher than that paid to the agricultural worker who was doing such tremendous work, such hard work, and who was doing it so skilfully. After all that wonderful talk, what is the agricultural worker paid in my county? He has 55/- per week. He has to rear a family on that, to house the members of it, to feed them, to clothe them and to educate them on a wage of practically 1/- and a fraction per hour per week. If he works on Sundays he is not paid double time like the industrial worker; he has no half-day, and if he works overtime during the week he is not paid at the rate of time and a half as the industrial worker is.

Is it any wonder that the wage they are receiving is driving our farm labourers from the land to the cities and the towns? But that is not all. If an agricultural labourer grazes a goat on the land of his employer he is cut 2d. per week; if he grazes a donkey on his land he is cut 6d. per week, and if he grazes a sheep on the mountain he is cut 1d. a week. Is there any other class of worker in the country whose wages have been so finely calculated? I suggest that the farm labourer will continue to flee from the land unless this fine calculation of his wages; this measuring of his wages in terms of pennies and two-pennies and six pennies per week is stopped.

I understand that the farmer-Deputies say that they would have no objection to pay more provided they were able to do so. That may be correct. I am not a farmer and I cannot say whether it is true or not. What I do know is that the farmers in Great Britain are able to pay good wages to their agricultural labourers. If our farmers are correct that they cannot afford to pay higher wages to their agricultural labourers—a living wage of at least £4 a week—then the money which the State is giving to the farmers by way of subsidies might as well be thrown down the drain because there will be no increased production in the country. Anybody, even though he is not a farmer, who has studied this question of production, must realise that, unless the land is worked you cannot produce, and so unless the workers in the most important of all our industries are paid such a wage as will encourage them to remain on the land, that industry cannot be a success.

I should like to say that, with my colleague, Deputy Dunne, I will judge this Government by its attitude towards the farm labourer. I was glad to hear the Minister say that it was his intention to lift him from his present position so that he would be able to compete with any industrial worker in the country. I trust the Minister will do so, and that he will succeed. If he does then we can say that we have a good Government.

Mr. S. Collins

In discussing agriculture we can consider that it is, in the unanimous opinion of this House, the main industry of this country, and I start off by expressing my complete and absolute sympathy with the view of Deputy Kyne that as it is the primary and the real basic economic industry of the country, the worker on the farm should be, not in a position to compete with industrial labour, but on a level slightly higher. Unless we realise that the worker is as integral a part of the production drive as the farmer and the land, we are not going to get very far on that production drive. I feel myself, and I have always felt, that there is a certain amount of cheap foppery and cheap snobbery throughout the country regarding the agricultural labourer. To some extent he is a person who will be described as a "caubog". Unless that stupid attitude is dissipated and unless the country is made to realise the real worth of the farmer and his men, talking on agricultural Estimates will be idle, because it is contentment for the farmer and his men that is going to get a production drive. That brings me to the argument that I wish to address to this House.

Farming is a business and the main attraction of any business is the ultimate profit to the man who puts his money and his work into it. I welcome the statement of the new Minister and his drastic change of policy, because I feel myself that individual effort and individual initiative on the farm will be the criterion by which the farmer himself, with his labourers, can improve his farm and the profit-earning ability of it. I welcome in no uncertain way the removal of compulsion because I have always advocated, as a farmer's son, that the man who best knows how to run a farm is the farmer himself. He understands the peculiarities and difficulties of his own immediate job, and I do not think, with all the good-will in the world, that any technical expert or any civil servant sitting at his desk would be able to give him any direction and should not be allowed to give it.

Three things are necessary in the agriculture of this country at the moment. The first is the ordinary simple law of nature that you cannot take out of the land more than you give back to it. I welcome the fact that the new Minister hopes to be able in some way to offset the insane stupidity of the Administration that allowed a constant drain and eating in of the capital value of the land which was continued over a period of years. In spite of this fundamental and simple law of nature there has still been this draining on the land, although it may have been necessary to some extent owing to the emergency. It is going to take a tremendous amount of hard work, of artificial manure and farmyard manure to put heart back into that land, and to give us land that can give us production.

I am not going to enter into an argument on the merits or the demerits of certain branches of cattle breeding. I feel that in this country you have an ideal situation in which you can breed cattle for milk supply and for the fat market. I do not think we should allow anybody to give any predominance to one or the other. Each should be given a fair test in an open market and let the farmer himself judge the results on the profit that will accrue. It may be suggested, as some Deputy did, that the milch cow is the centre-piece of our agriculture, but I do not accept that theory. In certain parts of Ireland, undoubtedly, that may be true, but in other parts it may be equally true that fat cattle or store cattle are the centre and base of agricultural economy. What we must do is to build up an agriculture that is itself on a sound basis. Deputy O'Grady, in a distortionate manner, has tried to twist the reality of the situation, and the situation is a simple one. There is no farmer in the country, whether he be in Cork, in Galway, in the West or anywhere else, who will not put his back into farming when he can see for himself that he is getting a genuine return. I welcome the Minister's attitude of giving certain assurances and certain assured prices to the farmer, because he can then sit down and analyse for himself his approach to his own individual farm and decide where he can best make profit for the ensuing year. A haphazard, sketchy policy of agriculture is no good. If you start an industry you plan on a broad basis and you have capital to cover certain periods before the returns from production begin to show a profit. To deal with the primary industry of this country you must approach it on the same basis. You must give the farmer the basis on which he can build his own individual economy and for that reason I have no hesitation in wishing every success to the present Minister in his approach to this problem.

A lot may be said for and against certain things, but I do not think that anybody will disagree that unless agriculture is built on a basis of having each farm self-supporting within itself, you are not going to get very far. I want to see agriculture back on the sound, solid basis that the late Paddy Hogan, God rest his soul, once had it. I want to see again the farmer throughout the country growing his rough cereals to improve his stock and to feed his fowl and his pigs so that each little farm throughout the length and breadth of the country will become an industry in itself and each individual unit a unit of pride to this nation. I have often said before, whether it is pleasant or unpleasant, we have had in this country—and rightly—a lot of indignation about our constant continued struggle against Britain. If there is one way I can conceive to recoup this country for what we may have suffered at their hands, it is to produce as much as we can and to make as good and as fair a profit as we can out of them, so that the Irish people can build up their nation again. There is no good in sitting down here in a deliberative Assembly like this to offer what I might describe as grotesque, stupid and, in fact, completely lunatic criticism such as was offered by the predecessor in office of the present Minister. This Dáil expects something more, and has a right to expect something more, from people who have held office and administrative responsibility and who have been in charge of a Department than such a grotesque pantomime performance which lasted longer than any pantomime I was ever at.

Unless we get down to the problem of putting this country where it really should be, where the primary producer of real fundamental wealth of the country is encouraged and helped in every possible way by the Government to do his job better and better that the nation may go on, it is only idle, petty nonsense to debate agriculture at all. Let us in this deliberative Assembly show our appreciation of the work of the farmer and his men by getting together, not in a spirit of acrimony but in a constructive, honest way, to produce something that will help the farmer to better his position.

Before I conclude I should like to refer to the flax industry in my constituency. I ask the Minister, when dealing with flax and the marketing of it, to try to ensure for the future, if flax growing is to continue, particularly in West Cork, that the price which the North of Ireland people will pay for it in Clonakilty will be the same price as they have to pay in Ulster. Like other Deputies, I want to see the co-operative movement developing. What I say may be unpopular, but I want to see the co-operative movement develop for the purpose of encouraging agriculture and helping farmers to get the maximum production and for the purpose of processing and marketing farm produce. I want, however, to see a line drawn in the co-operative movement so as to confine it to agriculture and the processing of agricultural goods and to leave the provincial towns and little villages their normal trade.

I think that if the farmer and the co-operative movement concentrated on their own job in the development of production and the marketing ultimately of their production and left to the shopkeeper in the small towns and villages the selling of boots and shoes, laces and other things there would be a healthier feeling between the people in these towns and villages and the farmers, a development of prosperity and wealth in provincial towns and in farming communities and a realisation of the idea of one more cow, one more sow, and one more acre under the plough.

Mr. Allen

There is an item in this Estimate of £400,000 for the development of the poultry industry. I should like to know what proportion of that sum the Minister hopes to spend in the present financial year. That is an important matter for the poultry keepers and the would-be poultry keepers. At the end of last year a big drive was started to increase the poultry population and it has gone on since that time. So far as I can see, no portion of that £400,000 has been spent up to now and, as things look, there will be very little of it spent before the end of the financial year. Every Deputy hopes for the success of that scheme and will do everything possible to make it a success. It was initiated by those on this side of the House when they were the Government Party and was brought into operation by them. The Minister did not approve of it at the time but, now that he is Minister for Agriculture, I am sure he is putting his best efforts into it.

As to the farm buildings scheme, the Minister's Department, about March of this year, sent a circular to committees of agriculture asking them to abandon schemes which they had for the erection of poultry houses and telling them that these schemes would come under the farm buildings scheme in the future. We have statements from the Minister that he had no hope of any construction taking place this year under the farm buildings scheme. In effect, that means that schemes such as were put in operation by committees of agriculture in previous years for the erection of poultry houses will not be proceeded with and no poultry houses will be erected this year under such schemes. That is a very important and a very serious matter. I speak on behalf of one committee of agriculture and they had a scheme in operation for the last three years for the erection of poultry houses under which they gave grants of £15. That has been dropped at the instance of the Department of Agriculture. Nothing is being provided in its place. There is no money allowed to be spent and the Minister is not going to spend any money under the farm buildings scheme this year. I hope the Minister will see that committees of agriculture are allowed to give grants for the erection of poultry houses as they were in the past.

All kinds of excuses have been put up as to why farmers cannot take advantage of the farm buildings scheme this year. The Minister has told the House that there are no materials available. I want to tell the Minister that at least one-third of the cement manufactured in this country is on the free market and any farmer can buy it for the purpose of improving his farm buildings. But the Minister, in order to save £300,000 for the Minister for Finance, is not going to allow this scheme to come into operation in the present year.

Mr. Dillon

This is Deputy Smith's Estimate.

Mr. Allen

We know that the Minister is standing over this Estimate because he did not tell the House when introducing it that there was any particular item in it which he was not going to put into operation. There are a great number of ways of killing a dog besides choking it with butter. The Minister has killed the farm buildings scheme this year on the excuse that there are no materials available. I want to tell the Minister that farmers all over the country every year expend a considerable amount of money in improving their outbuildings. All that work was held up this year awaiting this grant which was promised by the Minister's predecessor. The scheme was advertised and 22,000 applications came into the Minister's Department. There was not a single thing in the world to prevent the Department of Agriculture putting that scheme into operation. They had officials down the country.

Mr. Dillon

You are walking right into it.

Mr. Allen

I am not.

Acting-Chairman

The Minister must use the third person. The Deputy might also be allowed to make his speech. Deputy Allen to proceed.

Mr. Allen

He had inspectors down the country who were in charge of farm improvements. They were there for a number of years. These were all experienced men quite capable of supervising the farm buildings scheme. I hope the Minister, if he ever brings the farm buildings scheme into operation, is not going to set up a new group of inspectors in his Department to supervise the scheme because there is no necessity for it.

The farm improvements scheme, which has been in operation over a long number of years and which the Minister discovered in the month of July, 1948, was a proper and a good scheme. He took good care, however, when he got charge of the Department, to set out to kill that scheme for the year 1948 to 1949. Formerly it was the practice to have that scheme advertised in the month of March and to invite applications in that month. This year, under pressure from the Minister's supporters, the Government supporters throughout the country, and from people all over the country, the Minister for Finance decided, in the month of July, that he would give the Minister for Agriculture the money to finance that scheme. I want to tell the House that very little of that money is going to be spent this year. It is now the 15th July—the middle of July— and the advertisement appeared last week in the local and daily papers telling the farmers of the country that if they wished they could apply under that scheme.

Before any work can be done, however, there are a lot of preliminaries to be gone through. The work has to be inspected by the Minister's inspectors and reports made. The Department, after having considered these reports, issue certificates enabling the work to start. Before all that is done there is a considerable time lag. The result will be that in the financial year 1948 to 1949 little or none of that money will be spent. The Department of Agriculture will not be called upon to pay any portion of that money—or only a very small portion of it—in the present financial year. The Minister for Finance, with a view to saving the Exchequer that expenditure and of balancing his Budget in the present year, refused to give the Minister for Agriculture any money under the farm improvements scheme until the middle of July. For the past two years we have had very bad weather in the spring and early summer. This year, fortunately, we had a very fine spring and the farmers got their crops sown early. They were free during the month of May to carry out work under the farm buildings scheme or the farm improvements scheme but neither was in operation. The farm improvements scheme is now being brought into operation with the approach of the harvest season when the Department of Agriculture and the Minister for Finance are well aware that it will not be possible to carry out any work under this scheme. I do not know what excuse the Minister has. I am sure he will tell the House that he has no inspectors to carry out the farm buildings scheme. He has the inspectors down the country. These officials of the Department of Agriculture have been doing nothing for the last three months. They are standing around in the towns and villages throughout the country. That is absolutely true. I do not make these statements without knowing that they are true. They had no work to do whatever because of the fact that the farm improvements scheme was not advertised as usual in the month of March.

Mr. Killilea

No doubt they were chasing pigs.

Mr. Allen

You may grin, smile, sneer or whatever you like, but it is an actual fact.

In his statement to the House of what was to be the agricultural policy in the next 12 months the Minister made some rather extraordinary remarks. The Minister is well known by now. He was known for making outlandish remarks and statements before he became a Minister. This country, however, expects from the persons who occupy posts as Ministers at least some type of decency. If it can be expected from the present occupant of the post of Minister for Agriculture the people expect that in his statements he will not call the people who grow crops in this country fools. If there is one thing more than another that everybody resents it is to be called a fool. The Scriptures have something very strong to say of a man who calls another a fool. I would ask the Minister to cease calling people fools.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Do not tempt him.

Mr. Allen

If a man wants to grow wheat in this country he should not be called a fool. If a man wants to grow beet he should not be called an idiot. If people wish to grow tomatoes they should not be termed as "exotic". People who keep Friesians are not cranks. If praiseach happens to grow in a farmer's field of corn that does not mean he is a lazy farmer. He cannot prevent it from growing there. If people come here from other countries—from Belgium, Holland or any of the other continental countries—to buy cattle in our cattle market they do so because they have the good-will of the Government. They are not fly-by-night men and they should not be designated as such. We just wonder what the Minister will say next. The people down the country buy the daily papers to read all the funny things that the present Minister for Agriculture is saying. He is looked upon now as the Harold Lloyd of Irish politics.

I notice that the Minister said very little in his opening remarks about his policy on the future of dairying or what he proposes to do about it. Is he satisfied that, at the present price which the farmers are getting for their milk in the creameries and for the raw milk they sell for human consumption, they are going to continue to keep cows? Does he think that the cow population is going to increase under the present price that the farmers are receiving? I wonder if the Minister is satisfied that the present price is such that it will encourage farmers to increase their cow population. I am afraid it is not. The present price of store cattle is much more of an encouragement to them to go out of dairying and into the raising of store cattle. The Minister should look into the matter or very soon he will find that his cow population is still further reduced. That would be a tragedy in this country. He made great play in his opening remarks of the fact that our cow population had gone down. I would suggest to the Minister that there are very apparent and definite reasons why the cow population has gone down. Many reasons have been given in this House but I suggest to the Minister that the real reason is that the farmers are selling off their cattle because they find that the profits from that industry are not sufficient to pay all the expenses of the industry. Dairy farmers at the present time are forced to reduce their cattle. I would like the Minister to consider the problem from that aspect. I would also draw his attention to the fact that the present high prices for store cattle mean that there will be less and less incentive to the dairying farmers to remain in dairying.

Store cattle are a much easier means of livelihood; store cattle are less expensive in regard to upkeep; store cattle are much less trouble and a much more remunerative livelihood can be obtained from store cattle at the present than can be obtained from dairying cattle. The trend towards reducing dairying herds is a serious one and it will be a very serious problem in the future. Unless the Minister takes steps to make it more remunerative than it is at the present time for farmers to remain in dairying and increase their herds live-stock production will be very slow, if not retarded altogether.

Another matter to which I would like to direct the Minister's attention is the fact that because of the present high price for store cattle there is bound to be a serious reduction in the number of in-calf heifers in the coming year. It pays the farmer better at the moment to sell the heifer as a store. The three-year-old heifer is more valuable from the money point of view than the three-year-old heifer springing down to calf. The farmers are fully alive to that. On the 1st of January of this year we had 8,000 in-calf heifers; on the 1st January next year I am very much afraid that we shall not have anything like that number. How the Minister will remedy the position I do not know. One method would be by giving a better price to the people who supply milk. The taxpayers at the present time are subsidising butter to the tune of £2,500,000. The dangerous tendencies in existence now must be arrested. If they are not arrested we are merely piling up trouble for ourselves in awaiting the result. I know farmers in my own constituency who formerly milked their cows and who have now turned them loose with calves on them.

Mr. Dillon

Is the Deputy's indictment that I have put the price of cattle too high, or is it Deputy Corry's indictment that I have knocked them down by £10 per head? Which is it?

Mr. Allen

I am not cavilling at the price. I am not charging the Minister with anything. The Minister had nothing to do with putting the price of cattle too high; I am not charging him with that at all. From the point of view of the farmer it is not a bit too high. The Minister has mentioned the question of price and in that connection it is possible that if the price of beef is kept at its present high level it might have serious repercussions in the future. One hundred years ago famine stalked the land. We are told that at that time there was more wheat grown in Ireland than would feed the entire population; but it had to be exported in order to pay the rents to the landlords. It is a good thing to have exports but we might export our beef at the expense of our own community. Our own people have first call upon the produce of our land and it should be made available to them at a price within their compass. I do not think there is anything incorrect in that premise.

With regard to dairying then, it is in a precarious position at the present time. The Minister was responsible for fixing the price of milk for Cork and Dublin. That price was fixed last March for the ensuing 12 months. He made April a summer month and fixed the price next April as a summer price. I emphatically protest against that. It is only in one year out of 20 that it is possible to get a fortnight's grass in the month of April. The present year was the first year for at least 12 years past when it was possible to put cows on grass in that month. April is usually cold and wet. Feeding stuffs are scarce and expensive. I think the Minister should reconsider the position in fixing the price of milk as far as April is concerned.

Now, in fixing the price of milk for the Dublin area an allowance of 2d. per gallon was made over a certain mileage; I think it was 40 miles distant from Dublin. Certain milk purveyors in Dublin have come down to my constituency and canvassed for milk. They have offered a price of 1/6 during the month of May and June plus 1d. As an incentive to the farmers to provide them with milk they are paying a portion of the carriage allowed on that milk which makes the price higher than that fixed. The result is that in small towns milk is becoming scarce because the people who formerly supplied the local towns are now sending their milk to Dublin because they are getting a higher price in Dublin than they would in their own local towns.

Mr. Dillon

What does the Deputy suggest?

Mr. Allen

I am pointing out to the Minister that these people are doing something that is irregular in paying portion of the carriage. There is 2d. a gallon allowed for 40 miles and they are giving 1d. extra to the farmers over and above what they can get in the local town and they are taking it from the local towns to Dublin. Deputy McGrath mentioned the Cork milk area. There is no necessity for any boundary for either Dublin or Cork. The whole Twenty-Six Counties should be left to the Dublin and Cork milk areas. Let the people send their milk to Dublin or Cork and let the Dublin or Cork wholesalers go as far afield as they wish. The Minister will have a serious problem in the coming winter to get sufficient milk for Dublin and the small towns will have a big problem too, a more serious problem than they have had in any winter yet. Every milk purveyor can see that, even in the month of July.

Mr. Dillon

Has the Deputy any suggestion to make?

Mr. Allen

I am pointing out that it will be the Minister's job to get a solution for that problem. He is being warned beforehand. I am not doing this for the purpose of introducing adverse criticism of the Department. I am pointing out what is happening in the dairying industry, and it will have a serious effect. I know any amount of small towns from which there is no milk going to Dublin and the people in those towns are finding it difficult, even in the flush time of the year when there should be plenty of milk, to get sufficient to supply their needs. Milk is coming to Dublin from many parts of the country, is converted there into ice cream and is sent back again to those areas in that form. Meanwhile the people are being left short of milk.

We want to see increased production in every direction. The members of this Party are interested in increased production. We know it is absolutely essential in the interests of every section that we should have increased production in agriculture and in every other possible direction. We on this side of the House will not hesitate to work for that increased production. Politics apart, we are all interested in the future prosperity of the country, whoever brings it about. I am sorry to refer personally to any Deputy, but as regards the present occupant of the office of Minister for Agriculture, he should mend his hand and have more respect for the people of this country, more respect for his predecessors in office, who worked to the best of their ability and were put there by the people. Instead of spending his time belittling his predecessors in office in every possible way, if he would plan to improve the lot of the people and of agriculture it would be far better for the country. He should mend his hand in the matter of his outlandish, foolish and uncalled for statements, and the sooner the Taoiseach puts somebody else in his place the better for agriculture and the country. I have no personal objection to the man.

Mr. Dillon

You love him with an undying love.

Mr. Allen

The country deserves something better than what it has received from the Minister since he took office. The Minister did not tell us his policy with regard to tillage. He made announcements earlier here and he said that he was abandoning compulsory tillage this year. I expect we are to take that as an absolute change, that he is definitely abandoning compulsory tillage and this is the last year of it. Be that as it may, the Minister has a big responsibility in the matter of food production. I am sure compulsory tillage would be abandoned some time. It was the policy of the previous Government to have a small percentage of compulsory tillage. I think that was their policy as outlined in a White Paper issued about a year ago—to have something like 15 per cent. by way of compulsory tillage. The Minister for Agriculture is opposed to tillage, according to all his pronouncements up to now; he has been opposed to tillage in every respect.

Mr. Dillon

That is quite untrue.

Mr. Allen

The people are not slow in picking him up. There are many who have been tilling for years against their will. Many who had to till during the emergency were tilling against their will and they will be very quick to abandon tillage. They are only waiting for the word. There was more land sown down this year as a result of the change of policy than there has been sown down for the last ten years. As a result of the change of Government policy, we will have a lot more unemployment this year in the rural areas. Every farmer knows quite well what will happen. There were big numbers of farmers employing men at tillage. They will now get out of tillage and do without these men. That will happen especially in the non-tillage areas. It will not happen in tillage areas like Wexford, where the people will remain in tillage, but in Meath and other non-tillage counties you will have a big increase in unemployment.

The Minister in some of his perorations said that the farmer who ploughed his land with horses in the future should be locked up in a mental hospital. He made that statement.

Mr. Dillon

When and where?

Mr. Allen

It appeared in the public Press.

Mr. Dillon

It is quite untrue and I am afraid the Deputy must know it is untrue.

Mr. Allen

That statement was made by the Minister—that the farmer who ploughed his land with horses should be locked up in a mental hospital.

Mr. Dillon

It was never published in any paper and the Deputy knows that.

Mr. Allen

It was published and the statement was made by the Minister.

Mr. Dillon

Produce the paper from which you are quoting.

Mr. Allen

The statement was made at a dinner.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy alleges he is quoting from a newspaper report.

Mr. Allen

I am not quoting.

Mr. Dillon

Have I not a right in the House to request the Deputy to produce the newspaper?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If a statement is attributed to the Minister which he knows is untrue, the Deputy making the statement must not persist in it if the Minister says it is untrue.

Mr. Moran

The Minister said much the same thing.

Mr. Dillon

Much the same thing— now we are beginning to weasel out.

Mr. Allen

There is no weaseling out.

Mr. Dillon

Your ear is nailed to the post. Produce the quotation.

Mr. Allen

It is not.

Mr. Dillon

You cannot produce it.

Mr. Allen

Order, order! The Minister has to keep order the same as everybody else.

Mr. Dillon

Disentangle your ear, if you can, now.

Mr. Allen

The Minister attended the dinner of an organisation in which I was interested not so long ago, and he made a statement there that I am sure he will not stand over. That statement appeared in the daily Press the following day or so, if he likes to look up the statement.

Mr. Dillon

I have them all here.

Mr. Allen

These are the statements I am referring to. I have not the paper beside me but I still stand over my statement.

Mr. Dillon

Stand over what?

Mr. Allen

That the Minister made the statements that were published in the daily Press——

Mr. Dillon

Yes.

Mr. Allen

——that the man who ploughed and tilled his land with a stick tied to a donkey's tail——

Mr. Dillon

Ah!

Mr. Allen

——and the man who used a slow horse, when he could have tractors, was a lunatic.

Mr. Dillon

That statement is untrue and the Deputy knows it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must not persist in the statement if the Minister says it is untrue.

Mr. Allen

I am not withdrawing the statement. Let the Minister prove it.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I should like to call the attention of the Chair to that.

Mr. Allen

The Minister made a statement to that effect.

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order, the Deputy stated that I said that a man who ploughed his land with his horses was a lunatic. I denied that but he repeated it. Does he stand over it, does he withdraw it or does he produce the extract? I submit with respect that I am entitled either to a withdrawal of the statement or to a production of the record to which he refers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Do I understand that the Deputy withdraws the statement he attributes to the Minister, to the effect that the man who uses a horse to plough his land is a lunatic?

Mr. Allen

No, Sir.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Then the Deputy cannot continue his speech. He must withdraw that statement when the Minister denies it and says it is not true.

Mr. Allen

I shall not.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will withdraw that allegation or sit down. Does the Deputy withdraw?

Mr. Allen

I shall withdraw it, then, but the Minister did make a statement and he says that he has that statement actually beside him. The Minister made a most outlandish statement on that occasion. The Minister treated the small farmers and the middle-sized farmers of this country as so much dirt and showed the contempt he had for them on that occasion. The statement was published in the Press. It brought a blush to the cheek of every farmer, to think that we had a Minister of Agriculture or a person who occupied the post of Minister for Agriculture, who would make such statements as the Minister made on that occasion.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Moran has gone out to get the statement.

Mr. Allen

Let the Minister put that in his pipe and smoke it.

Mr. Dillon

I could have saved him the journey.

Mr. Allen

There are a few other matters to which I should like to refer on this Estimate. One is the horse breeding scheme, under which provision is made for sire horses and thoroughbred horses on loan throughout the country. In recent years I understand that the Department found it very difficult to acquire the number of horses which they would have liked to have purchased. I want to suggest to the Minister that more money, if necessary, should be provided, as the breeding of those half-bred horses has been a remunerative business for farmers in the past. Nothing should stand in the way of making available these thoroughbred sires to the farmers who keep half-bred mares or mares of the Irish draught type. I know certain parts of Wexford in which horses of the hunter type were extensively bred in the past. Farmers have to travel up 25 miles at present to get the services of one of these thoroughbred sires. I want to put it to the Minister that he should try to acquire in the present year more of these sires. They need not necessarily have records. The Minister knows the type that is required throughout the country. They are getting very scarce and something will need to be done, otherwise the breeding of the half-bred hunter type will soon be a thing of the past.

I read in the paper during the week —the Minister, of course, had to give it a little publicity—that the Minister had made a deal or a swop with the Minister for Agriculture in a neighbouring country. There was an exchange of sires, and it appeared in the daily papers this week or last week. If there is one attribute that this Government possesses, it is that individual Ministers try to get all the publicity they can. It appeared in the daily papers some time in the last week that the Minister for Agriculture had made a deal with his opposite number, Mr. Tom Williams, under which they had agreed to exchange sire horses.

Mr. Sweetman

They agreed to the exchange of a service of sires.

Mr. Allen

You swopped horses.

Mr. Dillon

Do not be silly.

Mr. Sweetman

The exchange of the service of sires.

Mr. Allen

I want to suggest to the Minister again that there is a serious need in the present year to consider the question of the price of milk. There is also serious need for him to consider his policy on tillage and what the fruits of the policy on tillage are going to be for the country. It may be from the Minister's point of view "cod" to grow wheat, but I want to tell the Minister that there are a great many farmers throughout the country who will continue to grow wheat.

Mr. O'Leary

Not in the Macamores.

Mr. Allen

I am glad for one thing that the Minister has adopted the Fianna Fáil policy of giving guaranteed prices for wheat for some years and that he will give the people an opportunity of producing wheat in this country. The Minister has made some statements that will do serious damage to the country in the matter of wheat growing. We are trying, and I am sure the Minister for External Affairs is doing his best, to provide this country with dollars so as to enable it to buy wheat from that same country. Without these dollars, we will be unable in the coming year to buy the wheat we need. The previous Government had to bend all their energies to trying, by way of loan, grant or some other way, to provide sufficient dollars for this country, and while that was going on, we had the man who now occupies the position of Minister for Agriculture making wild statements about the madness of growing wheat in this country. I am sure that will not have a good effect in other countries, and I appeal to the Minister, in the critical times we live in—we are not all the way out of the wood yet; there is a scarcity of food all over the world, so that we will get only a portion of what is available—to do everything possible to encourage the growing of wheat in the coming year. It is too dangerous a policy to abandon wheat growing, or to discourage people from growing it, and there is no use in saying to a farmer: "Here is £4 5s. 0d. a barrel, but you are a fool or a ‘cod' if you grow it". One thing which we can all pray for is that this country and its agriculture may be saved from Dillons, knaves and cods.

Mr. O'Gorman

Yesterday, we heard an appeal to Deputies to cut short their speeches so that the financial business might be concluded by to-morrow week, but, judging by the rate of progress at which we have advanced since that appeal was made yesterday, it looks as if this Estimate will not have been concluded by the day on which all the financial business of the House is to be concluded.

Mr. Kennedy

We will keep our word.

Mr. O'Gorman

Thank you. I listened very carefully to the speeches made on all sides since the debate opened last Friday, and I can truthfully say that, after the first six or eight speeches, every speech made was a reiteration of what had been said half-a-dozen times before. Every Party here realises what the farmer means to this country. To me, at any rate, the farmer is the source from which the wealth of this country springs, and one would imagine from the gloomy speeches we have heard here during the past few days that the farmers and the country generally were down and out. I come in contact with farmers practically every day of the week and the impression conveyed to me is that they were never in a happier frame of mind than they are at the moment. The farmer is a conservative type of individual who wants to run his farm in the way he thinks best. He is happy to know that the day of the inspector is over, and, the farm being his property, he wants to run it in accordance with his own desires. We know that the present Minister has made that perfectly clear to the farmers of Ireland and he has certainly lifted from their shoulders a weight which had been placed on them some years ago.

I come from the centre of a very successful agricultural community, an area in which wheat, oats and barley are grown to a considerable extent. Wheat has been their principal crop there for the past six or seven years, and it was with a great amount of worry that I heard the Minister's statement the other day that we are reaping less than we sowed for the last few years, which proves conclusively that the land is starved. What the people mainly need in order to put back into the soil the fertility it formerly enjoyed are fertilisers, but it will take us a long time to get the land back to the condition of richness it enjoyed six or seven years ago. That is one point which I want to impress on the Minister who, I feel certain, is the man to tackle it.

Everyone realises what we owe to the farming community. If the farmers during the emergency years had not responded to the call made by the then Government, many people in the country would have gone hungry. That day is over now, and I feel that, under this Minister, there is a very bright future for the farmer, and certainly nobody deserves a brighter future than they, who are toilers over the years from early morning until late at night. If the farmer is happy, every other section of the community is happy, and if the farmer gets a decent return for the labour he puts into his land, he is enabled to give to the man who works with him, the agricultural labourer, a better wage. That, I think, is what has been responsible for the flight from the land for years past—that the returns in profits to the farmer did not enable him to give an adequate wage to his worker, so that he could bring up his family in a reasonable degree of comfort. That day is over.

I should like to request the Minister to forge ahead as soon as he possibly can with the poultry scheme which he envisages for the country. In my area there are lots of small cottiers who, out of their half-acres, can make a nice little living, and their wives, if they have a few hens, can make a little "dough" on their own without having to divulge to their husband what they have made. That is one scheme which I should like the Minister to go ahead with as soon as possible. I have no doubt he will, because the Minister strikes me as being a cheery personality, notwithstanding what some of our friends in the House may think of him, and the cheerfulness which he exudes here spreads amongst the people whose Minister he is. Every farmer I meet seems to be very happy at present, and I urge our colleagues on the other side to give him all the co-operation he is entitled to because a very serious duty devolves on any man holding a Ministerial post.

One of the finest speeches that I have heard in this House during the last four or five days was the speech of Deputy Coburn. His speech literally oozed with sincerity in his appeal to everyone. Every Deputy represents Ireland and all Deputies, on all sides, are imbued with a great affection for their native land. If we could forget the pettiness of politics and the scoring of little points, one off the other, we would be much happier. That is a subject that one could develop and talk about at great length, but I want to be very brief.

I would like to compliment the Minister on the way he is going at the present time. I feel certain that in the next two or three years the policies which he is advocating for the farmers will bear fruit and will redound to his credit and will make everybody much happier. I realise that if the farmer is down and out every other person is down and out. If I were to say any more I would be repeating what has been said 40 times already by other Deputies. In my constituency of East Cork the people have confidence in the Minister, and I have no doubt that when his term of office comes to an end, which I hope will not be for a long time, the benefits that he has conferred on the people will reflect credit on him and on the Dáil.

Mr. O'Leary

I have listened to speeches from Fianna Fáil Deputies who have been here for the past 16 years and who in their time interchanged Ministers. After all the changes, the people in the Twenty-Six Counties found themselves without bacon, butter, eggs, milk and farm produce. Now they are asking the present Minister what is the cause of all this. We have been on this side of the House since February. I have been sent here by all sections—small farmers, big farmers, labourers and business people. The farmers of County Wexford are greatly relieved that compulsory tillage is at an end and that inspectors will be checked from driving the farmers into an intolerable position. Not very long ago a young inspector took over a farm near Deputy Allen's place. The owner brought him to court and got an injunction against him. That was reported in the Press.

Deputy Allen came with me with three deputations to three Ministers for Agriculture. He came with me to Deputy Dr. Ryan, with a deputation from the Macamore farmers. He came with me with a deputation to Deputy Smith, asking for exemption from compulsory tillage. He came with me to the present Minister with a deputation of the same farmers. The only time that the farmers of that area left Leinster House any way happy was on the occasion that they had had a conversation for about one and a-half hours with the present Minister for Agriculture. They went home happy in the knowledge that they would not be forced to till land that was not suited for tillage, hundreds of acres that always had been used for dairy purposes and that were not fit for wheat.

I listened to Deputy Corry the other day and to the insulting remarks that were flung across the House from a man who should know better—Deputy Smith—who, after speaking for four hours, was in a fury, and was asking for drinks of water and shaking his fist across at the Minister saying, "I have you where I want you." It is a disgrace to have all that appearing in the papers and it is not good for the people sitting in the Fianna Fáil benches.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not relevant anyway.

Mr. O'Leary

It is very bad procedure to be allowed to take place. The Minister has a reputation behind him and his family. These insulting remarks should never have been used. Other Deputies spoke about a guaranteed price that the Fianna Fáil Government gave to the farmers. I can say here, and it is on the records of this House, that during the threshing season of 1947 and 1946 very few farmers got a guaranteed price, either 50/- or 55/-. I produced evidence in the House where a farmer got only 46/-. Where was the guaranteed price there? "Not up to malting content", was the reply of the Minister. According to Deputy Ryan, the then Minister, any farmer who saved his wheat in good order would get his price. Everyone in the City of Dublin and people all over the country had to volunteer in that year to save the harvest.

Then we had Deputy Walsh speaking of the flour mills being kept working. I have had experience as a flour mill worker for 25 years. I did short time under Lloyd George, under Presion dent Cosgrave, and under President de Valera; we were put out on the streets. But now they tell you, "We kept the flour mills working." There are only 36 flour mills in this country. Fianna Fáil gave the richest people in this country, the flour millers, a subsidy of £2,000,000, and there were less men employed. During the emergency two men and a packer were packing flour, pollard and bran into one bag. The men in the pollard room and the offal packers were at home. There was less employment in the flour mills. There are only 2,000 people employed in that industry.

I would like to see the Minister putting into operation his statement that the agricultural labourer would be brought up as near as possible to the industrial worker. The man in the flour mill and the man on the land are both equally important in handling wheat.

Deputy Allen referred to the statement of the Minister in regard to horses. Deputy Allen knows as well as I do that there are hundreds of small farmers who have no horse at all and who depend on their neighbour's horse. In my town the co-operative society hires out a tractor to the small farmers and it is a great service. What I understand from the Minister is that we must follow the march of events. Take any of the big farmers in the country. How many horses have they? It is only the small farmer that has been able to keep a horse. All the bigger farmers have two or three tractors in their fields. The system now is to have a tractor and a thresher going around, doing it all in one day. The big farmers can afford to do that. That is progress.

There is a state of unemployment in the country. Why have we unemployment? Because the majority of the farmers, who have no banking account, cannot afford to keep the agricultural labourer. They are not in the way to make money. After all the promises that were made in 1932. 16 years later the farmers are no better off than before Fianna Fáil came into power, although they would tell you that they had guarantees for everything.

An Act that was passed in this House has had the effect of reducing the supply of milk. I have experience of that in a district where people kept a few cattle and used to supply their neighbours with milk. They were put out of business when the Milk and Dairies Act was brought in and certain people were allowed monopolies. Deputy Allen asks where the cattle have gone. Did they not export the heifers and cause a scarcity? A few months ago, in reply to a question, the present Minister gave me the number of calves slaughtered in Cork. It shows the outrages against nature which took place.

In regard to farm workers' wages, how can a man in rural Ireland to-day live on £2 15s. a week, which is the wage in Wexford? Why is there a higher rate in Dublin, resulting in the farm labourers going to County Dublin to get £3 or £3 5s. and probably better conditions? We hear a lot about the flight from the land. If you go to country centres even in winter time, you will ask what is to keep a man in the country. Nothing. No life; they have to go five or six miles to the pictures on Sunday. The agricultural labourer is the slave and the next—the servant girl—is worse again. There is no law made here for those people, who have to work day in and day out for a miserable 5/- or 6/- a week.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Has the Minister any control over that?

Mr. O'Leary

He might have, some day. When a Minister is in charge here, I think he should have control of all the things. We have too many people in control and it gives a good excuse for any Minister to say something is not his responsibility. The same thing happens with county managers—they say it is not their function. We have to vote money here on this Estimate and it should be the responsibility of the Minister.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to wait until that happy time comes.

Mr. O'Leary

We should see that we vote in the right direction. The farm buildings scheme has been played up here. What did the last Government do? How many houses were built in the last five or six years under that scheme? Then there is the Agricultural Credit Corporation. I know farmers who have applied for a grant to buy a horse or cow and are told the corporation regret they cannot give a grant. The farmer sees nobody and is not told why he is turned down. He believed his land and holding was good security for £40 or £50. These are the people we want to help, as they are oppressed by high prices for seeds and have to endure bad harvests that leave these small farmers bankrupt.

On the milk question, no one has told us the price at which the institutions are getting milk. The price has been increased from the 1st July by the man passing down by my own home, but these people are putting milk into institutions at a much lower price than that which they are charging the public, and they are making money and bringing the milk in in jeeps. Some people in my constituency will not till and have given out all the land by conacre and gone into cows, as they are making more money, although they supply only mental hospitals, county homes and other institutions in the area, and they are quite satisfied. The whole cry here is for a better price for milk. Who is to pay that but the poor people? The extra halfpenny or penny goes on the poor. There is more milk coming to the city to the ice cream vendors than would supply all Dublin. Deputy Allen spoke on this and brought down some of the Dublin people into the Gorey area and got that area extended, so that milk could come up to Dublin, and he is in the milk business himself.

Every Deputy on the far side referred to the statements made by the present Minister, but forgot those made by their own Ministers and by my own colleague, Deputy Dr. Ryan, who said, "Thanks be to God, the British market is gone, and gone for ever."

Donnchadh Ó Briain

When did he say that? Quote the reference.

Mr. O'Leary

I need not give it now —but he said it.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

You could not get it.

Mr. O'Leary

I would have got it, had I known the Deputy wanted it. That was his slogan. A Deputy opposite spoke about sending cattle to New York. They looked for alternative markets and put the cattle on the boat at the North Wall and shipped them to German and other ports. Where was the market? They went over themselves and could not get the concessions the present Minister got, namely the extra 5/-. Why did they not do that and get the same price as the English farmer? I happened to be in Kilmuckridge a couple of weeks ago, with a deputation from the technical schools, and we were shown a fowl house being erected for eighty birds. That was carried out under the technical teachers and pupils, yet Deputy Allen says the scheme has been done away with, though it is going on up against his own home. Of course, Deputy Allen and others do not like to admit the truth. I have seen that scheme in operation.

I join with Deputy Coburn in saying that if we want to help the country and the farming community—the Fianna Fáil Administration failed after 16 years of a trial—we should give the new Minister our co-operation because that is going to be for the betterment of the country. Deputy Dr. Ryan said last night that compulsory tillage was a war-time measure and that they were going to do away with it. I say it is an insult to any farmer to be sending young men from the colleges as inspectors of their holdings. The farmers are very sore about that. Some of those inspectors come along and ask them what they have growing in this field and what they have growing in that field, but when the crop is above the ground they do not know whether it is barley or oats. That is how the best farmers in Ireland, the County Wexford farmers, were treated. They do more tillage than the farmers in any other part of the country, and yet that county was flooded with inspectors going around and annoying the farmers. It was a God-send for the people when the Minister said he would not send inspectors in on any farmer's land. The County Wexford farmers never wanted inspectors, but we had to have them to make jobs for some members of the Fianna Fáil clubs. We had the jobs and the jobbery. The Macamore farmers and the Bridgetown farmers in the County Wexford are very proud that the Government was changed, and in particular that we are not to have compulsory tillage.

It was said from the opposite benches last evening that there were more farmers in their Party than were to be found on this side of the House. Where are all the farmers in the Fianna Fáil Party now? They will not come in and listen to the views of people on this side. It is a shame and a scandal that there are only three there for this important Estimate. After all the fury of the ex-Minister, we have only three members there now, and I do not know whether they are farmers or not. I do not believe there is any farmer on the Fianna Fáil side listening to the debate. What did those opposite do during the last 16 years? They walked into the lobby, no matter whether a thing was right or wrong, and followed the leader—whether it was to put the farmer in the oil-hole, in the county home or in Mountjoy. It did not matter, it was all right. Now they are finding fault with the new Minister, who has been in office only six months. They are all afraid that he is going to act, and act quickly, and do something for the people. The longer the Estimates are held up the longer will the old-age pensioners and the widows be without their increase.

Mr. Kennedy

Bring in the Bill and we will pass it. It is ours.

Mr. O'Leary

It is a pity you did not bring it in when you were here. If you had you would have no need to be afraid of us. I can tell the Deputy that the day will come when these Estimates will be passed. We know the tactics that are being used in this House and outside of it, but all that will only keep the poor old people from getting their increases. We are having a kind of delayed action now to keep things back, the things that were brought in under the first Budget introduced by this Government. Some of these things went a long way to put the people on that side of the House where they are. I had no option but to vote for a change of Government, because before the change there was no thought for the people, the worker or the old people. That is why I cast my vote to change the Government, and I am not sorry for having done that. Some of the promises have been fulfilled already. There has been a reduction in the smokes.

Mr. Childers

On a point of order, are we allowed to discuss the whole policy of the present Government on this Estimate? If we are, of course we can keep the House going for another three or four hours.

Acting-Chairman (Mr. Halliden)

No. The Deputy should keep to the Estimate.

Mr. O'Leary

I know that was a sore one for Deputy Childers, the man who deprived us of being able to go to the Custom House on behalf of the old people when he was Parliamentary Secretary. Can he deny that?

Mr. Childers

Is that in order?

Acting-Chairman

It is not.

Mr. Childers

I shall claim the right to be afforded an opportunity of making a full reply to the attack the Deputy has been making on my conduct of old-age pension appeals if he is allowed to proceed in this manner.

Mr. O'Leary

I will keep to the point. We have to thank God that we have gone away from dictatorship and that the farmers, workers and the general public are now living in free air. We had not that in this House, or in the country, over the last 16 years. I hope the Minister will do all he can to improve the condition of the workers whom I represent. The workers got a lot of praise, but they got no pay from the Fianna Fáil Party for all they did during the emergency. I hope the Minister will compensate the farmers by giving them such prices for their produce as will enable them to pay their men well. They could not do that while they were held in by the late Government. When the people hear tell of the men who went over to meet the British to get a price for the farm produce of this country they should be overjoyed, because the whole world is vying for the British market. We all realise, no matter what republican ideas we may have, that our nearest market and our best market is the British market.

The Minister was very outspoken in the statement he made here on the opening of the debate on Friday. He made no bones of what he was going to do and gave an assurance to the farmer of guaranteed prices for the next four or five years. This is encouragement because the people know what they are going to get. During the previous 16 years they did not know. The price was only a matter of one year and they did not know each year whether they were even going to get as much as last year.

I think I will not delay the House any longer. Some other Deputy may be anxious to say a few words and we are all anxious to hear the reply of the Minister. Not alone this House, but the whole country, is waiting to hear the reply to this debate of the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Kennedy

I sincerely hope, after hearing Deputy O'Leary, that this Government will be in office this time next year because he will then have to talk about something else besides the sins of Fianna Fáil, and I am quite sure that he will be dumb if that occasion arises. I was glad to hear Deputy O'Gorman state that the farmers are not in the miserable position that some Deputies, particularly of the Labour Party, represented them to be in. Nobody who knows the facts can deny that the farmers have been in a happy position since 1938 and not in the bondage which Deputy Beirne represented them to be in last night.

I challenge any Deputy in any constituency where there is land for letting, 11-months' land, land for conacre or land for grazing by head, to say that that land has been left idle. There was competition for land in every place I know, in Leinster at any rate, and in a good part of the West. There has been competition for conacre, for cattle taken in on the head system, for 11-months' land. Prices have soared continuously since 1938. The second point I want to make is that in 1938 the arrears of land annuities due to the Land Commission stood at well over £2,000,000, but it is much less than half that to-day. The arrears of rates due to county councils during that period have successively decreased every year and we have 97, 98 or sometimes 99 per cent. warranted reduction in each county. The bank deposits for rural areas, for the Joint Stock Banks up and down the country, have all increased because farmers had money to lay aside on deposit. Any one of us who is familiar—as we have to be familiar—with the financial position of the farmers in our constituencies, knows that in the last ten years mortgages and debts have been wiped out. All of us, irrespective of the side of the House we are on, have engaged in negotiations with banks for the liquidation and reduction of these debts. Farmers have been put on their feet again. They have gone ahead and have not looked back. Therefore, the miserere we have heard about the farmers is not justified and I am glad of the honesty of Deputy O'Gorman in facing this problem and stating that there was no justification for it.

The Minister stated in introducing this Estimate, on column 2590 of the Official Report of the Parliamentary Debates of 9th July, 1948:—

"I am prepared to offer words of encouragement to those who live not only upon the land and have their living directly from the land, but to every other section of the community which depends on the farmers for its existence—to the doctors, to the lawyers, to the businessmen, to the trade unionists and the distributive workers and to everybody else whose means of livelihood would disappear overnight if the income of the farmers dried up"

I resent that statement of the Minister. Society does not consist of farmers alone and the other sections of society are not drawing their living from the farmers. If you take away the labourers, the mechanics, the railwaymen and the divers going down to make the harbours of the country, the farmer will be left high and dry and will go back to the primitive state of the caveman. Each section has equal rights and each are as important to the community as the farmer. They depend on the other sections and without them cannot carry on. Therefore, to represent us all as a number of drones hanging out of the farming community is wrong. All are interdependent and the well-being of all of us should be of equal concern to the State as that of the farmers.

The Minister stated that he will not let an inspector on to the farmer's land except by invitation. Deputy Dr. Ryan dealt with that last night and I am not going to cover the whole ground again. He was interrupted by my colleague, Deputy Fagan. When Deputy Dr. Ryan referred to the Livestock Breeding Act, Deputy Fagan intervened, "Will not the Guards go in?" Is that not interference? Is that not inspection? What is the difference between a Guard and an inspector? If a co-operative factory is inspected by law, if the workers in a co-operative factory are subject to laws, rules and regulations, I do not see why the farming community should be singled out to be put above everyone. That is the kind of thing that brought about revolutions and gave rise to that terrible thing, the destruction of the Kulaks in Russia, over which I do not stand. To make one section of the community above the law, to say: "You have no rules or regulations; you obey no one; you are absolute; you are monarch of all you survey," is a dangerous doctrine and a wrong policy for the Minister for Agriculture to embark on.

Deputy Beirne talked about compulsion and compulsion. I would like to point out to Deputy O'Leary that days were spent when they were in opposition in criticising the Vote for Agriculture and what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If you were entitled when you were in opposition to spend days in criticising the then Minister for Agriculture, we are entitled to criticise, and we give constructive criticism.

When the debate on agriculture and on compulsory tillage was on, we pointed out, and I, iu particular, pointed out that the neglect of one big farmer in County Meath would be of more consequence and bring more disaster on the nation than perhaps half the West of Donegal. If a man with 1,000 acres—and that is not uncommon—of the highest-valued, richest land in Europe in County Meath did not do his tillage quota, the result would be hunger in the cities and hunger among the poor that Deputy O'Leary is so much concerned about.

Mr. O'Leary

Who tilled the land for them?

Mr. Kennedy

There should not be one set of rules for one farmer and another set for another—you never had to compel the small farmer, he always did his duty. I was glad to hear Deputy Davin, who was not doing the "yes man" that Deputy O'Leary is doing to-day, speaking independently and agreeing with me on this particular subject. Deputy Davin last night pointed out that in his constituency of Leix-Offaly these big landowners threw a barrel of wheat into a certain acreage of land and then came along and said that wheat could not be grown there, that the land did not lend itself to it. We who were in the national movement in the Midlands know all the tricks and turns of these gentlemen. I subscribe to the doctrine that the sooner the land is taken off these ranchers and given to those who will work it the better it will be.

Deputy Fagan spoke about farmers' butter and said that he could bring so many lbs. per week in his car and sell it at 3/- per lb. in Dublin. I accept his word as to that, but that is only scratching the problem. In Westmeath and Longford the farmers bring in their butter to the grocers' shops in the small towns in order to cash in on it. These are not dairying counties. There was very fine weather in May and the cows gave an abundance of milk. Therefore, butter was turned out by the stone in the farmers' houses and brought into the grocers' shops. Farmers were treated with contempt by a great number of shopkeepers. In some cases they gave 1/6 a lb. for good butter and in other cases they refused to take it. There was very much more butter involved in these cases than Deputy Fagan could bring up in his car. It was wrong for the Minister to take the control off the price of farmers' butter. These people are suffering from that now. Any compensation they might get, if this policy continues, from dearer butter in the winter when butter is scarce and there is a black market in it will not compensate them for the loss they are suffering now.

In an agricultural community when we introduce social services I know that if we are to have good government we ought to go "canny." I do not agree with those who talk about the people on the other side. We have not the income here. There is one thing I would advocate, however, and that is that the Minister should be more liberal in his expenditure in connection with the veterinary scheme operating under the county councils. There are too few veterinary surgeons in the counties. The number should be trebled and each should be given a dispensary area. In that way you would do away with the big mortality in cattle.

I heard the Minister state that lack of phosphates and other things in the soil was the cause of a number of deaths amongst live stock. I submit that there is another cause. The prevalence of liver fluke since 1946 has caused tremendous losses of live stock. I am a butcher by trade and I know something about this matter. I do not think 15 per cent. of the livers of animals slaughtered in the last few years were free from fluke. I had that confirmed by people in my trade all over the Midlands. I had confirmation on it indirectly from the veterinary officers in Birkenhead. I saw a practical demonstration of the effect of dealing with liver fluke in cattle, as it is dealt with in sheep, for instance, in Deputy Donnellan's constituency, where they methodically dose sheep every autumn to prevent the incidence of liver fluke. I think that that will also have to be done with cattle. I saw two sets of cattle, one of which was put on middling pasture and given two doses over a period of a month for liver fluke. The other set was put on good land. There was a death amongst the cattle put on the good land. The cattle put on the middling land that got a double dose of male fern came off it with sleek coats. That proves that this problem which has become widespread since 1946 requires to be tackled. The only way to do it is by an effective veterinary service.

Then you have mastitis which has 101 complications. I suppose there are 30 or 40 kinds of that disease. According to the veterinary service that presents a very big problem. The knowledge gained by the veterinary service will probably lead to the eradication of this very dangerous disease which is thinning out our cow population. Then you have timber tongue and other diseases. A poor man cannot afford guineas for a veterinary surgeon every time an animal becomes affected. If you treble the veterinary service in every county it will pay in the long run. The farmers will be able to pay the extra rates necessary to keep these veterinary surgeons.

Deputy Beirne talked about extending rural electrification so that the farmers' sons could go and pulp turnips at night. I think the Deputy is living in the 18th century. Rural electrification is necessary to provide amenities in rural districts such as are provided for people in Boyle and Roscommon. No matter what may be the good intentions of any Government, the flight from the land will continue. One would think that was only taking place in Ireland. It is taking place in every country in the world. It is taking place in Australia, the most thinly populated continent in the world and they do not know how to tackle the problem. Rural electrification will be of benefit to the people in the rural districts after a day's work when they want a little enjoyment. You will not encourage them to stay on the land by getting them to pulp extra turnips.

The Minister says that he does not mind being called the Minister for Grass. In that connection I do not know whether a complete feed in silage or a mixture of silage and hay is the best, but experienced people tell me that a mixture of silage and hay is the best. That might not seem contradictory to an intensive grass policy. I want again to refer to the particular people I have dealt with under the heading of compulsory tillage. The Minister need not think that these people will go out with their ploughs and sow shamrock seed for him. They will graze the land as their fathers before them grazed the land, and they will keep large cattle. I realise that intensive cultivation of grass should go hand-in-hand with the tillage policy. While farmers will go to grassland meetings and toast the Minister's health devil a bit of them will put a plough in the County Meath to grow shamrock seed for him. I can assure him of that.

The Minister has been very hard on the butchers and he has said untrue things about them. In the course of his remarks he said:—

"... let no self-seeking profiteering minority imagine for one moment that by bluff, slander or propaganda they will force this Government into inaction, when, for the purpose of lining their own pockets, they seek to strike at the live-stock industry and the farmers of this country, upon whom all sections of the community depend."

That is the old cry again.

"we may not like the task of challenging the racketeers, but those who choose the road of racketeering do so at their own peril...."

I submit that the butchers have a case. I realise that this matter involves both the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Agriculture. I say, however, that this organisation, which is a very old one in this country, is prepared to submit evidence of their accounts to the Minister—particularly in the last six months—which will change his opinion of them and refute his statement about their being racketeers. If other sections of the community such as lorry owners and others in particular posts are entitled to be received by the Minister, this respectable section of the community is also entitled to consideration. These people should not be brushed aside by anybody in this House with what I call slanderous statements. We are not against the farmer getting his good price. We are not against the housewife paying an economic price for what she needs for the household but we do feel that this section of the community, which is as good as any other, is entitled to a fair profit just as the farmer is.

We all sympathise with the farm labourers. I want to say, however, to the members of the Labour Party who talk about them that the farm labourer has no broken time. I would say to them, however, that when they are making a case for the farm labourer they should not exaggerate it. He is paid his week's wages, whether he is resident on the farm or not, even if the six days of the week are wet.

Mr. O'Leary

That is not true in all cases.

Mr. Kennedy

I am speaking from my own experience. I do not know anything about County Wexford. I know that there is a problem in that respect. I have studied this matter and I would recommend to the House now, as I have done in the past, that, in the case of the farm labourer, the children's allowances should be doubled, and should apply to the second child. I also recommended that the free milk and the free boots scheme should automatically operate to his benefit. We could also make provision for special scholarships for his children. In that way we would meet the farmers' difficulty in regard to the position of the farm labourer. Of course, there would require to be a clear definition of the term "farm labourer." The problem of making the farm pay is one which will tax the Minister's ingenuity. They have a pattern in the West and in the north-west of Ireland —in Connemara in the Glenties and in County Meath. To get a ruler and divide the areas into squares and dump a certain number of families in each square will not solve the problem.

I think it was Deputy Allen who said that the price of cattle could go too high. I agree with that statement. Even if you have a four-year agreement —and that will be discussed on another occasion—some fine day there is going to be a slump unless there is another war, which God in His mercy forbid. I think that we should try and get a ceiling in prices in anticipation of that day, because no matter what agreements we may make or whatever else we may do the slump will come, the collapse in prices will come, and all the subsidies in the world will not save us. For that reason it is vital to prepare for it. If we get a ceiling in dry stock then we must try to adjust the presentday price of milk with that end in view. When the Fianna Fáil Government was in power I often had occasion to marvel at their meticulous care in regard to the price of milk.

It may be an overstatement on my part but I would chance saying that a pint of milk is worth the price of a pint of porter and that it is ten times more valuable. The food value of milk and the food value of butter will have to be considered by somebody sometime, and very soon at that. I say with all sincerity that, even at the risk of more taxes, the Minister should consider the question of a better price for milk to the creameries and milk to the consumers in the towns. I believe that in towns in the midlands such as Mullingar, we will be up against the problem this winter of a proper and adequate milk supply. The only way to face it is to give an increased price for milk. Therefore, in order that the milk may be available I advocate that the increased price for milk in the coming winter be fixed now. Milk depôts have been mentioned but I understand they are available for infants only. Whether it would be wise to legislate for them for the public is a question I have not examined and on which I have no information.

In conclusion I should like to refer to agricultural education. My own committee of agriculture have been asking me for some time past to request the Minister to receive them because they want an agricultural college established in County Westmeath. Last night Deputy Beirne advocated an agricultural college in each county. I do not agree with my own committe of agriculture on that subject and I do not agree with Deputy Beirne because I do not see the need for a lot of such colleges. We have enough of them already. There is an agricultural college at Ballyhaise, near where I live, and we have an excellent agricultural college in County Meath also. We want to get into the people's heads that these colleges are primarily for the training of farmers' sons to be the coming farmers instead of being instructors for the rest of the community.

I have had the idea in my mind for a long time and I have advocated it more than once that where there is a vocational school in a rural area it should acquire a farm of five or six acres. Complementary to its size farming should be taught as a practical subject. There should be a cow, a sow, a pig and hens on that embryo farm so that practical instruction in these could be given to the student in the particular vocational schools. They should be taught how to look after the animals and the poultry. In that way, one would inculcate into them the practical husbandry of good farming. Sin an méid a bhfuil agam le rá.

Mr. Browne

Since this Estimate was introduced on Friday I have listened to the different speakers taking part in the debate. No matter what our views may be individually it is the practical situation of the farmers which is the important thing. To my knowledge the farmers are satisfied with the new Minister for Agriculture. He has given new life to them and new hope. He has brought about this agreement under which the farmers are guaranteed prices for four years. Instability of price has always been a major drawback as far as farmers are concerned. Since hostilities ceased farmers did not know exactly where they stood or what the future was likely to hold for them. The Minister has now given them a ray of hope. They have four years in which to take advantage of the opportunities that offer. Proof of their satisfaction is that they are prepared to co-operate fully with the Minister.

The farming industry in this country may be divided roughly into three categories, covering three different areas. In these areas farming is carried on according to the needs of the locality. We have the dairying industry; we have the grassland area where cattle are fattened; and we have the small farmers under £15 valuation. I happen to come within the last category. The people on these small farms did excellent work during the emergency. They did that work without any compulsion. They turned out the maximum produce they could turn out. They grew oats, barley, wheat and potatoes. They turned out eggs, poultry and bacon. Under this new agreement they now have a golden opportunity of continuing their good work in the expectation of a satisfactory return.

Proof that the people are satisfied with the agreement as far as the cattle industry is concerned is the fact that young calves to-day have doubled their price. That goes to show that the people are taking advantage of the future as far as the cattle industry is concerned. Pigs, poultry and eggs are to a large extent supplied by the third category also—that is, the farmers with the low valuation. The pig industry was the staple industry so far as these small farmers were concerned. So, likewise, were poultry and eggs.

The pig industry was neglected by the previous Minister for Agriculture and his predecessor. Legislation is largely responsible for having the industry in the position in which it is to-day. It was not merely emergency legislation which has brought about the present low production. It was legislation prior to that that killed the pig industry in this country. We had legislation in operation from 1935 to 1940 and the pig raisers did not know where they stood. They did not know what class of pig to sell or when to sell her. A farmer would have his mind made up to have a pig of a suitable weight. If he brought that pig to the market and it did not reach a certain weight it would be unsaleable and he had to bring it home. If the pig was over a certain specified weight for the factory and did not reach a certain grade, the farmer would get only a second-rate or third-rate price.

There was another regulation, that if the pig did not turn out number one grade so far as bacon was concerned, the price given for her would be only second-rate or third-rate. Then we had controls and quotas. For a period of two or three years I remember the streets of my own and other small towns being flooded out with pigs. We had buyers there, but there was no market for the pigs. The factories were allowed to take only a certain quota, weekly, fortnightly or monthly. When the quota was filled the factory could take no more. When the pigs were offered for sale there was no market for them. They would be brought to the fairs and then brought home. That condition of things was responsible for killing the pig industry. That is why we have a low pig population to-day. That is why we are without bacon in practically every shop. If the quota of bacon arrives on Thursday the shopkeeper will have it sold on Saturday night.

I believe the Minister will be able to put into operation some plan that will bring back the pig industry. I see his trouble. He will not bring the industry back in two or three months. It is doubtful if he will bring it back inside 12 months, but by then he will have gone a long way to reach his goal. He will have to give some encouragement to the farmers to go in for breeding sows. He should endeavour to adopt some scheme that will encourage the farmers to rear breeding sows. The difficulty will be the price. I am satisfied the price now in operation is reasonable at certain periods of the year.

I submit there is no farmer who can breed pigs and rear them at the same cost over the full year. The way to get back to pig production is by some method of a two-period price. The farmer can raise pigs more cheaply from October to March than from April to September. From October to March he has the grain crops on his land— oats, barley and possibly rye. He also has waste potatoes during this period and in the ordinary way he will purchase maize meal But when March comes and the seed is down he has not the same resources for feeding. I suggest that whatever is the price over a certain period there should be a special price to meet the cost of production from April to September. If you are to encourage the farmer to keep in pig production for the whole year you must give him a special price during this period.

I will come now to the poultry population and the egg industry. As to poultry and eggs, there is not a housewife in any part of the country, from what I can hear, who has not gone straight into it, and I have no doubt that inside six months the Minister will be quite satisfied with the results of his policy. I believe that next November and December you will not have eggs rationed. You will have sufficient to meet the needs of the people in the cities and towns this winter, and it is possible we shall have a surplus for export. That is something that has not happened for the past five or six years.

Mr. Killilea

When were eggs rationed?

Mr. Dillon

Last year there were none.

Mr. Browne

Last November and December not alone were they rationed but they were black marketed. If it is any information for the Deputy, people were going with vans from the city into various places in the country prepared to pay any price for eggs; they paid a price for them much higher than the controlled price in the city. In my opinion the scheme adopted by the Minister, and now in operation, is working so well that you will not have that situation next winter. You will have sufficient to meet the needs of the people and possibly you will have enough for export. That is a big change, seeing that the Minister is only three months in office. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to resume later.