Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 16 Jul 1948

Vol. 112 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 31—Fisheries (Resumed).

Mr. Bartley

The Minister expressed, as his main purpose, the preservation and well-being of the industry for the inshore men. I think everybody will agree with him that that is a very desirable purpose, but I think the policy he has hinted at to achieve that aim is open to question. He seems to think that anything in the nature of trawling in a serious way will militate against the interests of the inshore men. I think that viewpoint can be questioned. One of the things that has retarded the fishing industry, more than anything else in my opinion, is the inability of the industry to provide a continuous supply of fish for the home market. We had two views given on that last night, one was that fish cannot be got in the majority of the towns. The same view was expressed in another way by a Deputy who said that the market is not able to keep a worth-while industry going. These two viewpoints, in my opinion, are complementary and supply a very good example of the operation of a vicious circle. One effect produces the other. Now, if we are to keep the inshore industry alive one of the things that is necessary, in my opinion, is to be able to guarantee a supply to the home market. As the Minister pointed out, the weather is the biggest factor against that being achieved because we have a type of boat that can operate only in fair weather. That is where I come to differ with the Minister. We should have some means by which we can supply the market during periods of bad weather when our present catching craft cannot operate.

The previous Minister expressed himself as being in favour of a semi-State large-scale trawling company. At the time I expressed my disagreement with him on that, because I believe that the State ought not to be a party to the setting up of any sort of a hybrid organisation which would be operated by commercial interests, and under which the State would have to bear any losses that were incurred. If we are to carry out what the previous Minister had in view, I think it should be entirely a State organisation, and I would like to see as an experiment—it may be a foolish idea but there is no harm in expressing foolish ideas—something equivalent to the construction corps established under the auspices of our new naval service. An organisation of that kind, controlled and operated by the naval service, could supplement very effectively the operations of an inshore fleet. It would be very easy to control such an organisation in such a way that it would not be in competition with the inshore men. A great deal of other work could be found for a service of that sort when not engaged in actual fishing operations.

The Minister said that he would not favour the establishment of any trawling company, but he seemed to imply much more than that, because he said that he would prevent, in so far as he could, the development of any large-scale trawling. Now, I think that raises a number of questions. I would like to ask the Minister if any considerable section of inshore organisations were to decide on their own bat to engage in this type of trawling, will he use his resources to prevent them?

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

Does the Deputy mean the setting up of a trawling company?

Mr. Bartley

Suppose private individuals, now engaged in the fishing industry, decide themselves to get the type of boat that is operated in deep-sea trawling, will the Minister prevent that development?

Mr. Dillon

Do you mean the setting up of a trawling company?

Mr. Bartley

I am not talking about a trawling company. Suppose a sufficient number of fishermen were able to equip themselves in such a way that their operations were likely to injure the prospects of the present organisation, will the Minister stop that development?

Mr. Dillon

Any proposal to establish a trawling organisation that would be calculated to destroy the livelihood of the inshore men, I will prohibit.

Mr. Bartley

Suppose a considerable section of the inshore men themselves decide to get on to the type of development that I have been speaking of will the Minister stop that? If they transform themselves into deep sea operators will the Minister prevent that?

Mr. Dillon

Not a bit. I will let all and sundry go into competition in deep-sea trawling, but not with our inshore men. We cannot have both. If anybody is allowed to go in for deep-sea trawling, then everybody will have to be allowed to do it. That is all.

Mr. Bartley

At all events, the net differences between the present Minister and his predecessor seems to be that the previous Minister, over the better part of his period of office, did not do anything contrary to establishing large-scale trawling; he neither expressed himself to be against it, nor did he express any intention of preventing it if private enterprise were to set about getting into the business. The present Minister, however, seems to have gone a stage further and intends to take the positive action, apparently, of preventing the development of large-scale trawling. I think that is going a little bit too far, but at all events I doubt if the Minister has the power to carry it out.

Mr. Dillon

Is the Deputy in favour of wiping out the inshore fishermen in favour of trawlers?

Mr. Bartley

I am not in favour of wiping out the inshore men. The point I am making is that this industry is carried on in a very haphazard fashion. The Deputies behind the Minister gave reasons illustrating that. I wish to point that out because of the incapacity of the present organisation to guarantee a continual supply of fish. If the Minister were to supply that deficiency by a type of large-scale trawling operation—if it is within his competence—he would be achieving the purpose which he indicated here last night of maintaining the inshore men on a very sound basis by guaranteeing a market to them, as that is one of the big difficulties this industry is suffering from.

Mr. Dillon

That is precisely what I propose to do.

Mr. Bartley

Yes, I know that is the Minister's aim, but my point is that the Minister's policy towards achieving that aim is the wrong one and will not achieve it. I agree with the Minister that we ought not take any part in setting up a trawling company, that is a type of trawling company by private enterprise with the State mixed up in it. That would be quite wrong; it would not work; I am against it and I expressed the same opinion when Deputy Ryan expressed his intention of aiding such a venture. What I do say, however, is that as we have a naval service there might be an adjunct to that naval service which would be a fairly good training ground for our potential sailors and, at periods when the inshore men could not supply the market, you would have a type of boat manned by what I might describe as a "naval construction corps" under the command of the naval service and operated by the State. These would be available during the sort of weather that the Minister told us ties our present boats up in the harbour. These two types of fishing would be complementary and would be controlled in such a way that the Minister would have the power to see that it could not in any way operate against the interests of the inshore men. I believe that eventually the people who are now engaged in fishing will be demanding larger boats.

We have two problems with regard to fishing, the west coast from Donegal to Cork and the east coast, and different conditions obtain in each of those two places. The east coast, in addition to not having such dangerous waters to operate in, has the Dublin market, which is the only market worth talking about in the country.

I do not think I will say any more about that. I have said enough about it to indicate what is in my mind and I hope the Minister will consider it for the reason that it will achieve the purpose he wants to achieve.

I was referring, when we adjourned, to the Sea Fisheries Association. As an association, I believe it is a moribund body.

Mr. Dillon

The Sea Fisheries Association?

Mr. Bartley

Yes, as an association. I am referring to its membership.

Mr. Dillon

It is mighty active for a moribund body.

Mr. Bartley

It has an active headquarters. I want to assure the Minister and his advisers that any criticisms I have to offer are not meant to harrow them. I know that they have a very tough furrow to plough. I was on the committee myself and I am still a member of the association. I have been a very consistent critic, but I think the Minister and his advisers will have to admit that my criticism was always well-intentioned. I would refer to one flaw in the constitution and organisation of the association. When the elections are on a candidate can get the list of members who are in arrears with their share calls and can collect the ballot papers from the members. Having calculated the amount of arrears on each share called in respect of each member, the candidate can then send a cheque for the amount of arrears, and provided it gets in before the ballot papers are opened, he can validate these votes. There is an advantage which the sitting member has over the new member; the new member cannot get the list of arrears at the city office here while the sitting member can.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is a keen student of the procedure, I observe.

Mr. Bartley

I am. I told the Minister that I was a member of the committee for a number of years, a nominated member, and I am still a member of the association. I want to tell the Minister that these complaints have been conveyed to me by others. I also want to tell the Minister that, if he examines the committee elected, he will find out that over the whole period of its existence there have been only one or two changes in the membership. I would say to the Minister, as a Minister who has on this Estimate expressed himself to be so much against monopolies, that he has a monopoly of the membership of this committee and that everybody's efforts to break it have failed.

Mr. Dillon

It was not for the want of trying, Deputy. For 15 years you have been grabbing away.

Mr. Bartley

And I was one of the ones who tried.

Mr. Hickey

There was a dead hand on the association.

Mr. Bartley

It is because of that dead hand on the association that it has become moribund, and what is the result? You have now a new association, a voluntary one, without State aid, without even State blessing, called Muintir na Mara. We had a similar situation before which produced the Sea Fisheries Association. As a result of the establishment of Muintir na Mara, we have now a decision by the Minister—I do not know if it was made by his predecessor or not—to establish an advisory council. Perhaps we are getting on. I hope we are. The constitution of the association I should like to say is capable of being manipulated. During the emergency it was manipulated in respect of the issue of gear. Of course, there were no boats to be issued then. As I am on the question of gear, I think the Minister ought to remove the control on the importation of whatever gear is available.

Mr. Dillon

What control?

Mr. Bartley

The trammel net is one that comes to my mind. If the fishermen were allowed to import it directly, the price would be very considerably lower than that which the fishermen have to pay when they get the equipment through the association. I should like the Minister to examine that matter.

Mr. Dillon

I do not know of any control.

Mr. Bartley

I should also like to make a complaint about a particular case. An application was made by an ex-member of the Defence Forces who wished to apply his gratuity to the purchase of a boat which was for sale in the West. As a matter of fact, a deposit on the boat was not required because the association decided to operate it as an experimental boat. So far as I understand, the application of this ex-Army man was not even considered. A strange thing about that is that when I wanted to put down a question about this matter I was told in the office that as this was a matter for the committee of the Sea Fisheries Association it was not a suitable matter for a Dáil question and my question was not accepted. By contrast, it does seem strange that a question will be accepted from me about the time-table of a bus service between Cruckspulligan and Muckinaghbol-gadanederahaulia. But, if I want to put down a question about an important matter affecting the Sea Fisheries Association, I am told it is not important enough to be the subject of a Dáil question.

An Ceann Comhairle

It was probably a question of the difference between two Acts.

Mr. Bartley

I am not in a position to discuss what the reason is. I am really addressing my remarks on this matter to you, Sir, and I should be very pleased if you would look into it.

An Ceann Comhairle

It would be better if Deputies came to me outside the Dáil, as I am precluded from replying here.

Mr. Bartley

I do not expect a reply here.

Mr. Dillon

A Dáil question is a very valuable propaganda weapon.

Mr. Bartley

I can assure the Minister that any propaganda I have attempted in the matter of fishing has reacted very seriously against me. Therefore, he can absolve me on that score. I should also like to draw the Minister's attention to the question of the three-mile limit. I know that we have no power to alter it ourselves, but I believe there is an international organisation which deals with this and cognate questions. In the Dáil and outside we are often told that fishing by foreign trawlers inside the three-mile limit is the greatest obstacle to the progress of our industry. I do not think that statement will bear examination. The efficiency of the catching equipment has been enhanced so much since the old days that the damage is caused, not so much by the taking of the fish, as by the scraping of the beds. This view has been expressed to me by fishermen. They say that great damage has been done and can be done to our fisheries in places where these foreign trawlers have a right to fish outside the three-mile limit. It has been put to me that any limit less than ten miles is of no use. The request I am making to the Minister is that he should use his influence with whatever international organisation exists for dealing with this question to have at least a discussion as to the feasibility of altering the limit. I take it it applies to other countries as well as to ours. I know it is a very big question, but it is possible that an international agreement might be got for an extension of the limit purely for fishing purposes. I know that would put a heavier burden on our protective service, but I believe it can be done. It would preserve the spawning grounds. If it were done, the quantity of fish actually taken would not matter, even if some of it were taken occasionally inside the limit.

I am not satisfied that the West of Ireland, particularly Galway, is getting a fair deal. In saying that, I am not taking the present Minister to task because he has only been a short time in office. Neither can I blame the previous Minister. It is the peculiar type of organisation which controls the industry which is responsible. I know the Minister can retort that the fishermen have a very effective say in it. They have an effective say on paper but, in actual practice, as I have illustrated, they have not. The association is supposed to market catches, but I would point out to the Minister that they only market what they can do conveniently. I lay emphasis on the word "conveniently". Other people have to market things which the association does not find it convenient to market. I refer to shell fish and shoal fish. They do market lobsters in Donegal. I do not know whether they market any other sort of shell fish. In regard to shell fish, it is a strange thing that more seems to have been done by two Frenchmen for the lobster industry than by ourselves. One of them operates from Goleen, in Cork, and the other from Cleggan, in Galway. These people find a market for one type of fish which could not be sold either in Ireland or in England, the large cray fish, which used to be thrown back into the sea until they began to operate. There is a good market now for them and they fetch a bigger price than lobsters. I do not think we need worry very much about the lobster fishing. It seems to be able to look after itself in the main.

The Minister, in connection with general development, as he is operating a farm buildings scheme, which of course is at present in abeyance, might also consider two matters in connection with inshore fishermen. One is the provision of slips and piers and the other is the giving of grants to people who would be interested in developing the shell-fish industry by the provision of ponds, etc. With regard to the question of piers and slips, I do not know whether the Minister would think it advisable to have the control of this facility in his Department as well as the supervision of the issue of boats and gear and the marketing of the catches. A good number of them are required all over the country and very often, as I said on the Vote for the Employment Schemes, the presence or the absence of a slip or a small jetty may mean the difference between life and death for the fishermen. However, if there is close and sympathetic co-operation from the Exployment Schemes Office of the Board of Works with the Department of Fisheries I take it that it will not be necessary to bring that particular service under the control of the Minister.

I would say that the depredations of foreign fishing trawlers is an open question. Last year was the best year in the Aran Islands for a period of 20 years in the bream fishing, although we had foreign trawlers—Spanish ones particularly—operating off the West coast. There seems to me to be a great deal of camaradie between the Aran men and the crews of these foreign trawlers. I have seen them exchanging fresh vegetables, eggs and so forth for fish which the Aran men were not able to catch. There does not seem to be any hostility there at all. Sometimes these boats are driven in for shelter and similar reasons and I must say that in recent years I have not heard that there were any serious depredations by these Spaniards.

I was very interested in the Minister's reference to salmon fishing. I do not intend to say very much on that point except to remark on the general lack of facilities our people have for fishing on our lakes and rivers. In the Minister's absence one of the Deputies on the benches behind him said that the Minister ought to proceed very carefully in that connection. I do not know whether the man was joking or not because the way in which he expressed it was rather peculiar. He said that the Minister will find a great many pitfalls and other obstacles along those riparian properties. I think he specifically mentioned briers, but whether in a symbolic or in a literal sense I do not know. I can assure the Minister that if he makes any progress in that direction he will have the support of 95 per cent. of the Irish people whether they are engaged in the fishing industry or not.

I should like to point out that during the emergency salmon caught in Galway sold out of the country for not more than the price it obtained in Galway. In other words, one had to pay as much for a Galway salmon in Galway town as he would pay for a Galway salmon in any town in England. That is a rather strange state of affairs. Times must have changed a great deal since the days when the apprenticeship indentures in this country provided that an apprentice should not be fed on fresh salmon oftener than four days a week. I hope the time when it will be necessary to have such a provision will come back again.

Mr. Dillon

I will give the Deputy a £5 note if he can produce such an indenture.

Mr. Bartley

I cannot.

Mr. Dillon

No, and nobody else can either. It is one of the things everybody has seen but which nobody can produce.

Mr. Bartley

Well, perhaps the Minister will think it a good story, anyway.

Mr. Dillon

Se non é vero, é ben trovato.

Mr. Bartley

I hope the Minister will look into the matter and make some progress in that direction. It is something on which I do not believe there can be two opinions. The fishing industry is a very difficult one. It will require, as the Minister himself said, the co-operation of everybody who is interested in it. He will find that from this side of the House, however unwelcome criticism may be along certain lines, it will not be made in any carping spirit. Go n-éirigh an t-ádh leis an Aire ins an deagh-obair.

Mr. Dunne

I have heard a lot spoken about the inshore fishing industry and I have read a little about it. They say it is a great industry but if anybody cares to visit the small ports in my constituency—Howth, Rush, Loughshinney or Balbriggan—they will find hardly any evidence of that fishing although these ports were, I understand, at one time thickly crowded with fishing boats. The fishermen tell me that their history with the Sea Fisheries Association has been a very unhappy one and that it has been one in which there was discrimination against individuals in respect of suplies of gear and preferential treatment.

Mr. Dillon

Are these my friends from Howth?

Mr. Dunne

They are fishermen from various parts of the north county. The statements made by these fishermen have been borne out by Deputy Bartley. He was one of the executive members of the Sea Fisheries Association and he was, therefore, in a very favourable position to judge whether or not there was the discrimination that the fishermen allege. He has now verified that there was. That such a thing should have happened is, to my mind, an indictment of this association. As was mentioned, there is in existence a new organisation known as Muinntir na Mara. I think it is a very healthy development so far as the fishermen is concerned. This organisation, I am glad to see, has been given some representation on the proposed new council which the Minister is about to set up.

Mr. Dillon

It is already set up and it is functioning.

Mr. Dunne

I am sure that the advice and assistance of this organisation will be of great value to the State in any steps taken with a view to improving this industry. I think that, heretofore at any rate, it has been a neglected industry. Whatever talk there has been in this House about it, no matter what promises were made at election times and no matter what was said to the fishermen, they have, in fact, been neglected. That is unjust. I do not know, and I am sure no other Deputy knows, of any more difficult way of earning a living than by putting out to sea in a small boat and enduring the hazards of the sea and the heavy labour that is involved. That, however, is not the end of it. Deputy Bartley drew something of a comparison between the lot of the west coast fishermen and that of the man on the east coast. Representing an east coast constituency in which there is a large number of fishermen, I feel that it is necessary to draw attention to a number of points. A good deal has been said about the Dublin market. I regard the market there at present as an organisation for the exploitation of the fishermen. It is a peculiar thing that the fishermen, in common with the other primary producers in the country, more often than not gain least of all sections out of their own labours. On the other hand, the middlemen, who do least of all as far as fishing is concerned, gain most.

Mr. Hickey

Including the auctioneer.

Mr. Dunne

Proof of that fact is that some time ago when there was a strike in the Dublin fish market and the staff were not available to work for the auctioneers, the fishermen brought in their catches and sold them themselves with the assistance of the staffs on strike and to the exclusion of the auctioneers thereby getting higher prices and a better return for their labour than they had ever got before. So far as an improvement in the industry on the east coast is concerned, I think the first step should be an examination into the position in relation to these middlemen.

Mr. Hickey

Why not have a co-operative marketing system?

Mr. Dunne

That is something the Minister might well think over.

Mr. Dillon

Will the Deputy send a memorandum in on that to the advisory council?

Mr. Dunne

I will.

Mr. Dillon

I would be very grateful if he would and I shall have it examined.

Mr. Dunne

During the Minister's reply on the agricultural debate he stressed his belief in co-operation. As far as the fishing industry is concerned, co-operative selling as far as possible is the solution. It is the only method by which the fish will be brought to the consumer at something like a reasonable price and give to the men engaged in fishing something like a reasonable return.

Another matter which calls for consideration is the problem of fish gluts. What is to be done when more fish is available than is required? Fish canning is an absolutely undeveloped industry here. It is one which should be started. At the present time there is little or no future for young people here going into the fishing industry. The young people who do take up fishing spend a year or so on the boats merely as an apprenticeship for the deep water steamers. They then leave and go across the Channel and sail the seven seas, not because they want to do that but simply because they cannot get a reasonably continuous living out of fishing here.

Mr. Dillon

Come, come! There are some sailors amongst our people still, I hope.

Mr. Dunne

That is what I am saying.

Mr. Dillon

There is nothing wrong in sailing the seven seas. We have sailed the seven seas since the dawn of time.

Mr. Dunne

There is nothing wrong, but I think it is desirable that we should do something to keep as many of them here as we can.

Mr. Dillon

There seems to be a contradiction in that. You cannot sail the seven seas and stay in Ireland at the same time.

Mr. Dunne

It is not very pleasant to have to sail the seven seas if you do not want to.

Mr. Dillon

That is quite true.

Mr. Dunne

Early this year I was discussing this matter of the income of fishermen with the men in Rush. There, over the fishing period of some months, they had £2 per week. During most of that time no fishing at all was done. The important thing is to ensure that these men will get a proper price for their fish that will be of benefit to them not just for two or three months but the whole year round. I have hopes that the present Minister will bring a fresh approach to this problem. He seems to have a different approach from everybody else to practically every problem. In his approach I hope that he will examine the position particularly in relation to the Dublin market. Sin a bhfuil agam le rá.

Mr. Palmer

At the outset I would like to pay tribute to the first Minister for Fisheries in an Irish Government, Mr. Fionán Lynch. When he came into office fishing was at its lowest ebb. He did his utmost to provide our fishermen with boats and gear. He also set up the Sea Fisheries Association, which has proved of immense benefit to our fishermen. I would like, too, to pay tribute to the officials in that Department for their courtesy when representations are made to them and for the help that they are always so ready and willing to give in order to enable our fishermen to equip themselves with all their requirements.

When Mr. Lynch was Minister for Fisheries it was possible for fishermen to get boats and gear on a 5 per cent. deposit. Later on a 10 per cent. deposit was required. Then it was raised to 15 per cent., and pay as you fish. Unfortunately the Minister responsible for fisheries in the last Government raised that deposit to 50 per cent. That, of course, made it utterly impossible for fishermen to get the equipment they required. The present Minister, on being approached in connection with this matter, has agreed that the fishermen can now get boats and gear and whatever other equipment they require on a 20 per cent. deposit and he has given a guarantee that fishermen with a good record will be supplied with all their requirements without any deposit. That is a big step forward. I believe that boats and nets and equipment will shortly become available again in greater quantity. Any man, therefore, who wishes to take up fishing as an occupation will be able to obtain all his requirements.

Other Deputies have dealt with the industry in general so I shall confine myself to those areas in my constituency where fishing is an important industry in the lives of the people. I think that if larger boats could be supplied it would be all the better for the fishermen in the South Kerry area, but of course it would be a matter for them to decide. At the present time there are numbers of our fishermen idle because boats or engines cannot be supplied. I hope that the Minister will make every effort to see that secondhand boats or engines will be given to the fishermen wherever they can be obtained and that there will be a real advance made in the building of new boats and the provision of new engines.

The fishermen have a very dangerous occupation and I think that some system of look-out should be established in certain areas so that when in difficulties out at sea some signals could be passed which would bring them relief. Recently in the Cahirciveen area there was almost a very serious accident. I am informed that in other days, during the time the English were in occupation, there were two look-outs, one at Bray Head at the end of the peninsula and the other at Doulus Head. The buildings are there and also all the equipment. Telephone wires were laid on and they are at present attached. I think if these look-outs were restored they would be of great benefit to the fishermen and might be instrumental in saving many lives. It would be desirable if at other points along the coast such things could be established, if they are not already there.

Furthermore, I think each boat should be supplied with a dozen rockets or some system of signals that would be readily recognised. At present all they can do is to put up an oar with perhaps a handkerchief or a piece of a shirt attached to it.

Deputy Dunne referred to what happens when there is a glut of fish. I do not know about the canning industry, but I suggest that some cold storage plants should be set up at the piers and they should be a convenient distance from one another. At Renard pier and at Cahirciveen these would be very necessary. There is often a glut of fish there and the means of transport are not very suitable. Oftentimes the catches have to be thrown back into the sea. The fishermen there are very anxious that the Minister would take steps to set up such a plant, some type of refrigerator which will preserve the fish until transport is available. Also at those piers, Portmagee, Renard and Cahirciveen, there should be some type of windlass or derrick which will enable fishermen to lift the engines out of the boats when they need repairs or that will help them to lift the boats on to the pier when the boats require to be repaired or painted. At present they have no facilities of that sort and they simply drag the boats up along the strand.

Anyone who would see Renard pier would wonder why it has not been improved during the years. It is really a menace to those who have to use it. In stormy weather there is no protection for the fishermen. There are not sufficient facilities to enable the boats to land their catches because the pier can accommodate only three boats at a time. One morning there were 50 boats waiting to unload. Quite recently, on representations being made to the Office of Public Works, engineers went down and plans were prepared to improve the pier. I realise it is not the duty of the Minister to carry out such work, but I hope he will make representations so that the improvement will be hurried up, because it is absolutely necessary.

In connection with inland fisheries, recently the nets were taken up and the inland fishermen can no longer carry on their industry. Of course, provision will be made for their compensation, provided they can show their receipts for the fish caught during the past seven years. That is a difficult thing to find out in many cases and those men are still awaiting compensation. Some of them made their livelihood in that way and it is not fair that they should be so treated.

There is a peculiar situation with regard to rod fishing in the Killarney lakes. For the past 100 years a fisherman paid a £2 licence, or whatever it was, and one boat often fished with two rods or perhaps three, but now all that has been stopped Some fishermen were recently prosecuted for doing that. I think it is rather peculiar when it was allowed down through the years that they should be deprived of that concession now. I would be inclined to think that they would have some kind of prescriptive right to carry on. However, if it cannot be done legally that is another matter, but I would like the Minister to examine the situation and see if those fishermen could not be allowed to carry on as in former years.

As regards the protecton of our fishermen within territorial waters, on several occasions I have seen foreign trawlers coming right up the bays within a half or a quarter of a mile off the shore. I do not know what provision is made for the protection of our fishermen, but perhaps some of the corvettes that were purchased by the last Government could be used. I am not sure if they would be so suitable and it might be better if there were some fast boats, launches or cutters, here and there along the coast which, when a signal would reach them about poaching foreign trawlers, could very soon be on the scene. It is absolutely essential that some protection should be given to our fishermen and that foreign trawlers should be kept outside our territorial waters.

Deputy Bartley suggested that we might extend the three-mile limit. If international law or usage would allow that, it would be very good. I believe that in Spain the limit is 12 miles. I do not know what the limit is in other countries, but if it could be extended in this country it would be all the better for our fishermen. I am certain the Minister is anxious to do his best for our fishermen. I hope when his term of office expires he will leave them in a much better condition than that in which he found them.

Mr. Breslin

This Vote for Fisheries is of the utmost importance to many thousands of inshore fishermen around our coasts who eke out a hard and precarious existence even at the best of times. During the war years these inshore fishermen had a fairly prosperous time due, not to any great organising ability of ours, but solely to the fact that at the outbreak of war the British Government called in most, if not all, of its fishing trawlers, which were later used for war purposes. This naturally resulted in a great scarcity of fish in Great Britain which left us with a great opportunity to supply that market. I am afraid, however, that the rosy conditions which prevailed during the war years no longer obtain and that it is becoming more evident, week after week and year after year, that we shall have considerable difficulty in future in disposing of our surplus fish. The fishing industry, as all the Deputies who have spoken have agreed, should be one of our most important and lucrative industries. If it were developed properly, I think there is a great future for it and it would be nothing short of a national tragedy if the fishing industry of this country were allowed to fall into the same state of decay as after the 1914-18 war.

The Minister, in his opening statement, congratulated the industry on holding its good position after the war which has just finished, but I think that statement of the Minister has been a little premature. I think the worst still lies ahead, unless something is done to provide for the future of the industry in a better way than it has been handled so far. The Sea Fisheries Association have undoubtedly done great work for the industry over a very difficult period and I think everybody will agree that the fishermen and the country in general should be very grateful to the association for what they have done in providing boats and gear for a proportion of the fishermen and in providing for the sales and disposal of part of their catches. One objection I have to the association, an objection that is held by a good many people throughout the country, especially in County Donegal, is that they handle only a very small fraction of the fish landed in this country. The association, as far as I can see, does not interest itself at all in the sale and disposal of the humble herring, one of the main branches of the industry and a very important branch of the industry as far as we in Donegal are concerned.

If the fishing question is to be handled properly, surely the association, with Government backing, should look after this important branch of the industry, because if it does not, I can see, as many other people can see, the collapse of that branch of the industry in Donegal. I can see its collapse unless something is done to ensure that there will be sale for our surplus fish. I know it is not an easy matter. It is not a matter of just going to the association and asking them to provide for the sale of surplus herring, but surely they should take an interest in that very important branch of the industry. Unless this vital question is tackled, and tackled very soon, it will have a very serious effect on the future of the fishing industry as a whole. Last year in Donegal we had the greatest difficulty in disposing of about 10,000 half barrels of cured herring. If we had not eventually disposed of that herring it would have meant the end of the herring fishing in Donegal, because boats are not going out night after night to catch herring when the buyers, having last year's cured herrings on hands, are not a bit anxious to buy fresh herrings and cure them again. That is a very important question as far as Donegal is concerned, and probably as far as other maritime counties are concerned. The association should give some indication that in future they will do what they possibly can to help out the fishermen on that score.

Mr. Hickey

Are not these herring retailed in Dublin at 6d. each?

Mr. Breslin

That is so. The farmers of this country are offered a guaranteed market and a guaranteed price for their produce and I think, in fairness to the fishermen, the time has arrived when they also should be assured of a guaranteed minimum price for herring when they are landed at the different ports. As I have said already, unless some steps of this nature are taken, I can foresee the collapse of the herring trade in Donegal, the main branch of the industry, and that will have a very serious effect on fishing as a whole.

Important as the export market may be, I was disappointed that the Minister, in his opening statement, made no reference to the development of our home market. That market, if properly developed, would take up a good deal of our surplus fish. As other Deputies have indicated, it is very difficult to get fish in any small town or village in Ireland, except on rare occasions. Even in Donegal the position is that, if hotels want to ensure a steady supply of fish, they order it from Dublin and it is railed from Dublin to Donegal. I think if the Sea Fisheries Association were serious in looking after the sale of fish, it would be possible to sell a good deal more fish throughout the Twenty-Six Counties than is being sold at the present time.

The Minister referred to the question of trawling and I agree with a good deal of what he said in that connection. I think that any great development of trawling in this country would undoubtedly wipe out the inshore fishermen, but I hope he will realise that a good deal of trawling is carried on around our coasts not by our own people and not by our own boats. That trawling continues to be done by foreigners off many of our coasts. If he is so determined to keep trawling down to the smallest possible limit, I hope he will take steps to ensure that the foreigner will not be allowed to trawl around our coasts and thus ruin the fishing of our own nationals.

In his opening statement, the Minister said that he was making provision to supply fish to this country during periods of famine. Everybody knows that we have periods of glut and periods of famine, due to stormy weather when boats are not able to venture out. He said that during a period of shortage of fish, arrangements would be made to buy fish in Grimsby, Billingsgate or somewhere else in England to provide a supply for the consumers of this country. That is a very important point, but I was sorry he did not mention what is to be done during a period of glut. That is of more interest to our fishermen than the period of famine which he is taking all possible steps to meet. During a period of glut, fish are thrown back into the sea and good food is wasted. If the association were interested in their work, some steps would be taken to ensure that this fish would be preserved for a period of famine, so that it would not be necessary for us to go to Grimsby or Billingsgate for a supply of fish. We would have enough left over from the period of glut to supply our own people's needs.

I should like to ask the Minister to do what he can in regard to the provision of landing places and boat shelters around our rocky and windswept coast. In Donegal especially we could do with many more landing places and boat shelters and existing piers in many cases might also be repaired. A good deal has been done in the last nine or ten years, but much remains to be done if we want to give all the facilities we would like to give to those engaged in this important industry.

As I said last year, I am of the opinion that, until this Vote, which at present is an appendage of the Department of Agriculture, is looked after by a separate Ministry, we will only be ag cur i gcéill, as we say in Irish, so far as the fishing industry is concerned. It is a very important industry and surely it deserves a separate Ministry. I hope that some day some Government will come along and put in charge of it a man who will have the time to look after the industry and the will to build it up into what everybody would like it to be. It is unfair of the Government to ask any Minister for Agriculture to look after an industry such as this, and, if we were honest about building it up, it would not be tied on to any Department, but would stand on its own feet with a separate Minister, and then perhaps we would get something done for it.

I should be very glad if the Minister would tell us, when replying, if he intends to repeal the by-law which his predecessor made last year relating to the estuary fishing at Ballyshannon. His predecessor at the time gave a promise that, when they would have gained experience of the fish-pass erected on the Erne, the matter would be reviewed. The fishermen, as the Minister may recall, were very annoyed with that Minister's decision, and I should like to know if he intends to repeal that by-law.

Mr. Dockrell

One particular matter which I wish to bring to the notice of the Minister is that, in the Lough Ree area, there are a number of small fishermen who live mainly on islands which have very little arable land. Some years ago, the fishing rights in the Shannon and its lakes were transferred to the Electricity Supply Board. I believe the idea was to improve fishing for the benefit of the tourist industry. I do not want to go into the question of whether that has been done or not but, this year, these fishermen find that they cannot carry out their usual practice of licensed net fishing which they have carried on for generations. The matter of compensation and so on seems to lie between the board of conservators and the Electricity Supply Board. There the matter lies, and these unfortunate men now find their livelihood gravely impaired. I know the Minister's very sincere love of justice and his desire to help people like these. I understand that a public inquiry would have to be held in regard to the matter, and I am sure the Minister is only too anxious to help these men, and that he will, if he can, hold that public inquiry. I understand, however, that the Minister cannot initiate a public inquiry and I bring this matter to his notice, so that he may make some statement which these poor fishermen will understand and which will enable them to help themselves in the matter. As I understand, they would have to initiate the public inquiry.

In connection with the general position of fishing, I heard a couple of Deputies here referring to our surplus fish. I do not think that we really have any surplus fish, or should have any surplus fish. The consumption of fish in this country is very small. That arises from a variety of causes, the chief of which is that the whole fishing industry—I am speaking now of sea fishing—is not organised. The people engaged in it do not seem to have the capital necessary, and perhaps the organisation, to work up steady and regular supplies and it does not seem to be a matter of interest for shopkeepers in inland towns to stock and sell fish. There is a tremendous market for the sale of fish in the future.

I was interested in what Deputy Breslin said about fish going down from Dublin. I remember staying in a big hotel in the West some years ago. The fish came down every day from Dublin and by the time it got to the tables—it was during the war and things were rather disorganised generally—it was anything but fresh. That hotel was within 100 yards of the sea and never did I taste one piece of fish caught in the locality. Even the salmon came down from Dublin. There was one exception: the hotel had some way of getting lobsters locally and these were fresh. But, although we were on the edge of the broad Atlantic, there was not a local fish to be got. That is a great pity. Organisation is required and I trust that this Minister, with his dynamic energy and his sincere desire to help fishermen, will do what he can to bring about a change in the organisation of the fishing industry.

Mr. Moran

I want to put a couple of points to the Minister. One is in connection with the sale of boats. For some reason there is a regulation whereby a fisherman must get a permit to sell a boat to anybody outside this country and that permit seems to be invariably refused. I understand that there is a scarcity of boats in Scotland and some fishermen in the West had an opportunity of disposing of some old boats at enhanced prices, but they found that they could not be sent to Scotland. It has always been difficult for me to decide when a boat is exported and when it is not exported. It appears to me that once it is outside the territorial waters it is exported. At all events, the regulation is there and I would ask the Minister to modify it immediately and to give the fishermen an opportunity of getting rid of some of these old boats at fairly reasonable prices.

There is one branch of fisheries that has not been touched on to any great extent, namely, fresh water fisheries. They appear to have been completely neglected over a great number of years. Brown trout fishing means as much to this country as a tourist attraction as anything else we have. I notice that even the meagre grants that were given for hatcheries have been reduced from £1,585 last year to £695 this year. We might as well wipe it out altogether because £695 is useless. The number of hatcheries we have is few enough. This matter has been completely neglected by every Government. If more hatcheries were established they would pay dividends. They should be established, particularly in popular fishing centres like the West of Ireland.

There is another situation there which I would like to bring to the Minister's notice. For some unknown reason, stretches of salmon water are being leased to some of these people who are bringing about a new invasion of Ireland, without advertisements being put in the papers. I do not know if the present Minister or the Minister for Lands is responsible for that, but some of the upper reaches of the River Moy were leased recently to a British gentleman without any of the local clubs or fishermen knowing anything about it. I want to ensure that the local fishing clubs will have equal rights with everybody else. I want to give the countryman with his blackhead worm and bent pin the same rights to fish on the upper reaches of the Moy or any other salmon rivers as these people who come in and, by some backstairs methods, appear to be able to get a lease of the fisheries without the local clubs being aware of the fact. The Minister should look into that matter and ensure that it does not occur again.

There is another very insignificant sum—£330—set aside for technical investigation. Next to nothing has been done, except what has been done by voluntary effort, with the brown trout fisheries. I would urge that more money should be made available to develop them, particularly as far as hatcheries are concerned. It would appear that in other countries, principally America, a great deal of success has been achieved in increasing the fish and in getting better fish by planting plantain in the lakes. Where there is an opportunity, as there is in this country, of developing brown trout fisheries, it is a shame that they should be left in the backward state that they are in at the moment. Apart from the local fishermen, there is no field that is capable of more development from the tourist point of view. We are, probably, about the only country in Europe that has such a variety of free fishing in fresh waters.

I realise the difficulties in regard to the Fisheries Act. It will take years to take over the several fisheries in tidal waters and it will take a lot of money. It may be done in time, but I have no hope of seeing that position reached for a number of years. But, we have the ordinary brown trout fishing in the lakes and rivers that are capable of development. Unless more money is made available and more hatcheries established and some attempt made to do something with these lakes and rivers, they will be denuded of fish in a comparatively short time because there are many more people fishing, many more tourists taking advantage of the fishing here. We would have still more if these fisheries were developed. I would urge on the Minister, particularly as far as hatcheries are concerned, to consider spending more money and to establish more hatcheries in fishing areas.

Mrs. Redmond

I am particularly interested and delighted that it is Deputy Dillon who is Minister in charge of fisheries, because I believe he will give the matter the interest that we all know it needs. We realise fully that it is a most important industry, if properly developed and cared. I have no hesitation in believing that within the next year or two it will be one of our most important industries, although we do not hear a great deal about it. I was gratified to hear the Minister tell us that we can work up a still better export trade. I feel quite certain of it because we have magnificent facilities which we seem not to be able to develop.

Our fishermen have had a very arduous and hazardous time in the last few years. They were left to drift, more or less, on their own oars, without very much attention from the Government. The first thing we need to do is to see that proper boats are made available to them, because many of these men are very poor and are not able to undertake the heavy expense of buying boats at the present time. The second thing we need is to make the gear for these boats available to these people. Thirdly, we want a different system of landing facilities because, at present, they may catch the fish and have not the way of landing them. Therefore, we need good landing stages. I am quite certain that the Minister will have this very important aspect attended to.

Then there is the question of transport. Much could be done as far as that is concerned. We have heard evidence from several Deputies this morning that in many cases fish has to come to Dublin from the West of Ireland and back again. The same thing could happen in my constituency. It could come from Helvic Head in Waterford to the city, whereas smaller towns could be supplied en route by lorries or by having some intermediate station for taking fish for the smaller towns. A great deal of extra expense is involved in bringing the fish up in the first instance and then having to bring it back. Something could be done about the organisation of the transport end of it. In many places there is no storage whatever. We need that, as the storage is as important as the catch is, and without it we cannot get very far.

We have a certain amount of difficulty in Helvic at the moment, in the constituency which I have the honour to represent, about dredging; but I understand that has now been taken up by the Department. I trust that something will be done about it very shortly.

A thing we need very badly is proper look-outs, as will be realised, without knowing anything about it, from glancing at the newspapers now and again and reading of the terrible tragedies which might have been averted. Last year we have had no look-outs in certain places. In one district, Dunmore, if there had been a proper look-out, possibly several terrible disasters could have been avoided. Apart from that, there is not even a telephone there, and when a few people were drowned last year the people who came to their rescue had to go miles into the city in order to communicate with the Civic Guards and doctors. Surely that is the best way to tackle a very big problem—a telephone could be installed, even at an extra cost, and I trust the Minister will see to that without delay.

In my constituency the unfortunate fishermen, who have a hard life and contribute their part as the rest of the community do and still seem to get very little protection in their business, are very often harassed by trawlers. Something should be done to help them in that difficulty. We have gone to considerable expense in efforts to put down these marauders, but nothing has happened in certain districts. I appeal to the Minister to alleviate the hardships of these people so as to encourage them in their valuable work.

Mr. Hickey

It is evident, from what we know of our different areas and from what has been said this morning, that the fishing industry is being carried on in a haphazard way. I heard a Deputy from Donegal say they had difficulty in disposing of surplus herrings, but when you find herrings being sold at 6d. each in the city, it is evident that there is need for reorganisation.

I have listened to Deputy Breslin from Donegal, to Deputy Bartley from Galway, to Deputy Lynch from Kerry and to Deputy Ormonde from Waterford. There is no need for anyone to spend a moment more in trying to convince the Minister of the need for something to be done, and done quickly. In Cork City, surrounded by Ballycotton, Crosshaven, Kinsale and Baltimore, the supply of fish is only for a very reserved section of the people in the city. It is time this debate should close and that the Minister should take note of what other Deputies have said already.

Mr. Moylan

I had not the privilege and pleasure of listening to the Minister's statement on this Estimate and I do not know if he dealt with one particular aspect of the fishing industry with which I would like to deal, that is, river and lake fishing. I do not think any of the Deputies who spoke are fishermen, because fishermen generally produce very colourful tales. Maybe it is the keen desire for truth that prevented the debate from being more interesting.

There are three matters which affect very much our inland fishing. One is the continuance of permission for weirs to operate almost without any control. The second results from that, that is, poaching; and the third is that there is not sufficient control of factory effluents flowing into the rivers. I am not very much in favour of centralised control or nationalisation, but I do think that, if there is any sphere where national activities might be permitted to operate, it is in regard to control of our inland fisheries. The Minister should first go a good deal further in controlling the catches made by weirs. These have their roots deep in a history of confiscation and their operation prevents our own people from any enjoyment of fishing or making any living on the rivers. Poaching arises mainly because of the circumscribed manner in which the people can utilise the rivers. Along many of the rivers there are quarries in operation, where explosives are lavishly used and do tremendous damage to the salmon and trout fishing. The third point is that, particularly from creameries, there are untreated effluents being permitted to poison the salmon and trout, and it is about time that should stop.

I am fearful of the result of arterial drainage. I have said on a previous debate that we should enter into some type of water conservation and control, rather than a complete run off of water in the rivers. In this particular aspect I am fearful of the damage that could be done by unwise drainage of the rivers. In dealing with inland fishing control, the Minister will be up against many difficulties, but no national asset can be preserved and no national effort can be successful if it does not cater for the people. Because men are prevented from fishing legally, because of the deterioration of the river fishing and because of the depredations of the weir owners, the ordinary man in the street cannot have any access to rivers or to the recreation available there. A good deal might be done to develop our inland fisheries. It has been done elsewhere, and I wish the Minister would take cognisance of what has been done elsewhere in regard to that development.

Mr. Browne

I would like to get some information with regard to matters that concern my constituency. I have had complaints from various people that, due to recent legislation, they do not know exactly where they stand in regard to certain rights and liberties which they have enjoyed, some of them for a long period indeed. The first point is in regard to the ownership of fishing rights on a number of rivers and lakes which are on people's own holdings.

Mr. Dillon

You mean netting rights?

Mr. Browne

Yes. Some of those owners purchased further fishing rights from adjoining tenants. The second point is in regard to another section of people who purchased, or leased, fishing rights from a landlord over certain rivers. Their rights cover a period of years. In the case of some people that period has to run for a number of years, while in other cases the period is shorter. I am anxious to know what compensation the people who enjoyed those rights are entitled to when, because of recent legislation they are not allowed to exercise their rights to the full on those fresh-water rivers and lakes. As well, I have had complaints from workmen in a number of areas in the constituency of North Mayo. These men gave a long period of service in fishing on those lakes and rivers. Due to recent legislation, they are deprived of that continued employment by reason of the fact that their employers have no right of fishing on those rivers or lakes now.

There is another matter that I want to put before the Minister, and it is in regard to the condition of piers in my constituency. The constituency covers Achill Island; it goes along to Blacksod and on to Killala. In those areas some of the piers are practically washed away, and more of them are on the point of becoming derelict. The fishermen in those areas inform me that for years and years back they have got practically no assistance so far as the carrying out of repairs to those piers is concerned. They have asked me to make representations on their behalf. They inform me that as regards the conditions of the piers, they have put their grievances before the Irish Sea Fisheries Association. I am perfectly satisfied that the association has given great service and has done everything possible for the fishermen in those areas. We have the greatest confidence in it. The fact, however, is that the fishermen complain that they have made representations to the association, and that they have also gone to the Board of Works and the Mayo County Council. They say that none of these bodies has done anything about the piers.

Mr. Dillon

If the Mayo County Council were doing their work they would put up proposals to me and I would do everything possible to facilitate them and get the work done. If the Mayo County Council are not doing their work I invite the Deputy to kick them into doing it.

Mr. Browne

It is going to be a costly job to carry out the necessary repairs to those piers.

Mr. Dillon

We will help if the county surveyor will go and do his work and if the Mayo County Council will do their work.

Mr. Browne

They have put their case before the Sea Fisheries Association, the Board of Works and the council, but they have got no further.

Mr. Dillon

It is the council.

Mr. Browne

I suggest that, since the Board of Works is the body that is principally in charge of works of this sort round the coast, it should make a survey of the condition of the piers.

Mr. Dillon

If the Mayo County Council is too lazy or too incompetent to do its statutory duty, which is to go out and examine these piers and see whether they are inadequate, and makes no proposals to me, there is nothing that I can do about it. I invite the Deputy to tell the chairman of the Mayo County Council and the county surveyor to go out and do what they are supposed to do. If they will do that, I will do the balance. I would ask the Deputy to tell them that with my compliments. If they are too lazy to do it I cannot help.

Mr. Browne

I will have that information for the people of those areas. I feel that unless something is done there is great danger of loss of life in those areas, because those fishermen have to go out when the weather is bad and sometimes the position is really dangerous for them when they have to try to reach the mainland. I suggest that facilities should be provided for them in the way of having repairs carried out to the piers. The fishing industry, as far as my part of the country is concerned, is more or less dying out. In conclusion, I would ask the Minister to give consideration to the points that I have put before him about the fishing rights and compensation, and about the provision of employment for those men who have been deprived of their employment for the reasons that I have already indicated.

Mr. A. Byrne

My contribution to the debate will be very short. Unlike other Deputies, I have very little experience of the fishing areas of the country. I rise principally for the purpose of directing the Minister's attention to the condition of Howth and to ask him if anything is being done to assist the Howth fishermen in the way of providing them with better boats and better gear. I am also aware that Howth harbour requires dredging. That was the information I gathered when I was in Howth recently and made an inspection there. I saw that there was eight or ten feet of sand in the harbour just near the pier which prevented boats from coming in. I think that the dredging of Howth harbour, if it has not already been done since we were there last, would be money well spent and would give a very valuable return. I would also suggest to the Minister that Howth should be encouraged to have a freezing, curing or salting station—call it what you will—so that if they have good catches they could have them frozen or cured and, if there is not a market for them at home, I am satisfied that they would get a good price in an export market not so far away.

Mr. Dillon

Would Deputy Byrne be so good as to look into the question of dredging Howth harbour? If something needs to be done and if he will be kind enough to let me know, I will be very glad to take whatever steps are necessary immediately.

Mr. Byrne

Thanks very much. I will make another visit to Howth myself and see if the position has been improved since I was there a couple of months ago.

Mr. Dillon

I would be much obliged.

Mr. Byrne

I would ask the Minister if he could make it easy—I was asked some time ago to bring this matter up —for the sons of fishermen to acquire boats and gear so that they could get into the business and keep up that very valuable trade, as we are all agreed that fish is a great help to our food supply and if there is a surplus of it here there is a ready market for it across the water.

I have little knowledge of fishing and what I have is just from looking at the boats coming in, but when I was away I was rather amazed to see the depreciation in the harbours, the neglect of the piers. I remember on one occasion being in Valentia and the difficulties of the fishermen there were appalling. The piers were bad and required repair and I am told that a number of piers in the fishing districts at the present moment require repairs. I understood, too, that a shortage of nets has been responsible for a hold up of the boats going out. If that position has improved I will be very glad to hear it and, if not, I sincerely hope that the Minister will see that it is improved.

I think I heard the Minister speak in this House two or three years ago of the value of the Howth herring and mackerel, what a valuable food they were and how easy they were to get. I hope that something will be done to improve fishing conditions generally all round Ireland so that we may take that valuable commodity from the sea that is almost waiting for us to take it.

Mr. Lynch

My remarks will be very brief on this Estimate also. I deliberately refrained from intervening in the debate on the main Estimate because I knew very little about agriculture. The Minister might well say: "For this relief much thanks."

Mr. Dillon

Not at all.

Mr. Lynch

I also know rather little about fish and the fishing industry, but I have three reasons for intervening. The first is simply that I like fish. The second is to bring to the notice of the Minister a complaint which has been made to me from time to time with regard to the distribution of fish. The Cork fish merchants sent a deputation to some people in Cork at which I was present and complained of the intended making of an Order fixing the retail price of fish at the same rate as it would be fixed in Dublin. Whether that Order has been made or not I do not know, but during the course of the interview they advanced the argument that one reason why there should not be parity in the price of fish between Dublin and Cork was that most of the fish retailed in Cork, even though it had been caught on the southern coast, was sent to Dublin from which it was redistributed to Cork and this meant in effect putting a penny per lb. on fish. Whether that is the case at present or not I do not know but, if it is, I would ask the Minister to see that fish which is caught in southern areas at least should be distributed from some southern centre, whether it be Cork, Kinsale or Ballycotton, without going through the laborious process of being sent to Dublin and being sent down to the South again. I am not saying that it is a fact but, if it is a fact, it is a condition of affairs that should not exist.

I was reminded of the third point I want to make by Deputy Moylan's contribution to the debate when he mentioned effluents from factories. I happened to be on holidays at a West Cork seaside resort during August. In Southwest Cork, in Clonakilty, there is a flax-growing industry. It is a very desirable industry and I do not wish it affected in any way, but towards the end of August on the strand at Owenahincha I saw thousands of little trout making their way towards the sea. I made inquiries about them and I was told that the flax effluents had been released, and the fish, not finding the taste of the flax palatable, made their way towards the sea. I do not know what effect the sea water had on them, but I know they might have died. The value of the fish I saw going into the sea must have been thousands and thousands of pounds. I would ask the Minister to look into that situation. I would not ask him to do anything to interfere with the growing of flax, that very lucrative industry in West Cork, but I would ask him, if he could find some antidote for this flax effluent to use it as it is damaging the fish in these streams which is very valuable.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Like the other speakers, I am going to be very brief. I want to say first of all that I agree very heartily with some of the remarks made by Deputy Moylan and Deputy Moran with regard to lake fishing and river fishing in this country. Deputy Moylan complained that no Deputy who had stood up so far appeared to be an angler because he had not heard any colourful stories. I do not know but that the contribution of Deputy Lynch might be a colourful story: "thousands and thousands of pounds"!

Mr. Lynch

It is absolutely true.

Mr. Dillon

I think Deputy Lynch is probably right. It is an old problem.

Deputy Lynch

I even had one of them and it tasted of flax.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

If Deputy Lynch's experience is correct—and apparently it is—I have very great sympathy with the views he has put forward to the effect that there are fish being destroyed in this country. So far there does not seem to have been any serious effort made to conserve the inland fisheries, the trout and salmon fisheries. I know that in some areas very good work has been done and I think I have fished in most parts of the country by now. Certainly the condition of some rivers, lakes and reservoirs—though I suppose they have nothing to do with this Estimate—are such as to make enjoyable fishing out of the question. The real reason I got up was to bring to the Minister's notice, with regard to rod salmon licences, the system at the moment is that a licence for the season costs £2 and there is an additional charge of 10/- in each additional fishery district or area you go into, so that if you fish in more than one spot in the country you pay an additional 10/-. I would ask the Minister if anything could be done to have a fixed rate for the licences all over the country so as to enable rod fishermen to fish for salmon in any district with the one licence. That is my first point.

The second point is that if you fish for white or salmon trout you must take out a full salmon licence, even if you are not going to fish for salmon or do any fishing in a river or lake in which salmon are but merely to fish for white or salmon trout. I think that the same heavy levy should not be made on trout fishermen even though it is a question of fishing for white trout, as on salmon fishermen. I should like the Minister to state if he can do anything about the matter. I do not know whether he has any function in the matter, or whether it is purely a matter for the various local boards throughout the country, but it would assist rod fishermen here and the tourists whom Deputy Moran talked about if you had a fixed rate for a salmon rod licence all over the country and reduced the rod licence for those who are not fishing for salmon but salmon trout.

Mr. Kyne

Like my colleague, Deputy Mrs. Redmond, I am keenly interested in the fishing industry because of the fact that my constituency has a very long coast-line bordering on the Atlantic and that in former years a large number of people secured profitable employment there. I have not risen to tell the Minister what he should do in connection with fishing in the Waterford district but rather to ask him what he can do to help in the matter. I propose to give him a brief history of the fishing industry in my native town of Dungarvan. From what I have learned, 80 years ago there were over 100 fishing boats there; to-day there are none.

It may be suggested that that is due to the fact that fish were not being secured. But when I tell you that the town was known as the Dungarvan Hake throughout the length and breadth of Munster and that the surplus of fish was so great the land for miles around the town was manured with fish, you will understand that it was not for want of catching fish. From Ballinagoul and Helvic in the Gaeltacht, which are only four or five miles from the town, during my lifetime 50 boats were fishing; now there are only six. But within the three-mile limit stretching from Helvic right along to Kerry lies a fishing bank on which the Belgian, Spanish, English and French trawlers take a chance of being caught by our fishery protection boats for the purpose of having one fishing sweep there. If these foreign trawlers find it so profitable, why is it that our fishermen cannot go out and reap that reward? I suggest that it is because we have not trawlers of sufficient size. Any evening or morning when the weather is stormy and our small boats are kept from going out, you can see from my place four and five and even more of these foreign trawlers sweeping along and reaping a reward that should really be ours.

Even with the limited number of boats at Helvic, the position has arisen since the war that the entrance to Helvic pier is silted up with sand in such a way that it is only at high water our boats can go out at all. We have made repeated representations from the county council to the Department for the use of a dredger. We were promised it last March. Later it was deferred until June and it has now been deferred until September. Unless the Minister can devise some way of helping the fishing industry in my constituency there is little hope of its continuing. One would imagine that in a seaport town fish would be plentiful, but I can tell you that if you were in the town of Dungarvan to-day you would find much more difficulty in securing fish there than in the City of Dublin or the City of Cork, notwithstanding the fact that sometimes between June and July mackerel have been known to be washed on to the beach in shoals. That is due to the want of proper boats and fishing gear and of money to finance the industry. I therefore suggest to the Minister that the fishing industry in this country needs special investigation.

There is one particular matter to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. During the régime of the last Government, I think it was in 1934, an Order was made, whether by the Minister for Agriculture or the Minister for Justice, I cannot say, defining the mouth of the Colligan river, which meant that no net fishing for salmon could be carried out within the limits of an imaginary line drawn between Cunnigar Point and Abbey-side Point. As a result, fishermen who, during my lifetime and the lifetime of the people before me, were registered for salmon fishing were deprived of their part-time living and all the good it did was to provide more salmon in the Colligan river for the poachers. Surely it is not reasonable to deprive fishermen of an honest living for the benefit of those who are carrying on fishing illegally. I suggest that the matter is worth investigation.

Mr. Little

It seems that there is a sort of all-Party appeal to the Minister to do something for the fishermen along the coast. As the last Deputy stated, the coast-line in County Waterford is very extended and, therefore, we are all very interested in the conditions of the fishermen there. As I listened to the other speakers, I could not help thinking of the efforts made to try to get something done in the way of dredging at Helvic. I do not know whether the Minister could purchase another dredger, but there is certainly a shortage of dredgers. There is also a good deal of repair work needed in Helvic and Ballinagoul and some in Dunmore and Passage.

I was glad to hear the Minister say that he was going to give assistance to the county councils. I hope he will be able to do so, because up to this this matter has been nobody's child. You never knew whether a harbour was under the control of the Board of Works or the county council and the result was that the matter fell between two stools. I hope the Minister will carry out his optimistic undertaking and be able to give very much more support in that respect. The farmers, however, are not very keen on helping the fishermen and would not be anxious to increase the rates in order to assist them.

Mr. Dillon

Is the Deputy trying to help me or is he trying to ensure that I will not be able to get anything done?

Mr. Little

I am trying to help the fishermen.

Mr. Dillon

But at the same time to put the farmers on their guard so that I will not be able to get the money.

Mr. Little

I can assure the Minister that it is never necessary to put the farmer on his guard, I am sorry to say. There are these difficulties with regard to all these places and I must say that the Department, within its limited powers, has done everything possible to help us, especially at difficult times, when supplies are scarce. I hope the supplies of gear, nets, threads and so forth are more plentiful now. I feel I would like to put in a word with the other Waterford Deputies in an appeal for special attention. The life of the fisherman is a very hard one. There are some seasons when there are no fish to be caught and there are other seasons when there are almost too many. For instance, this year there was a great glut of fish. The problem of storage, transport and the creation of markets for the sale of fish throughout the country is very great. It is a fact that one cannot buy fish in Dungarvan. People in Ballymacarberry would be very glad to get it but they cannot purchase it there.

Mr. Dillon

What is to stop them?

Mr. Little

The transport system requires very careful investigation.

Mr. Dillon

A halfpenny post-card from Ballymacarberry to Dublin will get them all the fish they want.

Mr. Little

Just imagine sending to Dublin for fish when it could be got in Dungarvan.

The question of protection of coastal fishing arises. Constant complaints in that connection are being made in Dunmore. We hoped that our corvettes would be used for that purpose. It is desirable that when fishermen sight foreign trawlers they should be able to telephone to request the corvettes to come quickly and to clear the course. There is no doubt that we suffer a great deal in that respect.

Mr. S. Collins

What is the speed of a corvette?

Mr. Little

A corvette can do pretty good work when it is on the job.

Mr. S. Collins

They arrive a week after they are sent for.

Mr. Little

I would appeal for attention in respect of those counties and especially Waterford, where there is a very long coast-line.

Mr. S. Collins

I represent a very big fishing constituency and, fortunately, I know a little about fishing. The main problem at the moment in connection with the fishing industry is the shortage of boats, engines and gear. There are in the town of Baltimore, which is in my constituency, two boat-building concerns. I have been given authority by the people in the industrial school and in Skinners to tell the Minister that if he can assist by adding his voice to mine in the plea for the electrification of Baltimore we will supply a good many boats which are required for fishing.

Another organisation, the Sea Fisheries Association, caters for fishermen in this country. It is a very laudable organisation but it is hampered by a lack of finances. In so far as the Minister exercises control over that organisation I would ask him to exert every effort in his power to obtain more money for it because if the supply position improves that organisation can get the Kelvin engines which are ideally suited for fishing purposes in West Cork.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

In other words, boats.

Mr. S. Collins

I am not going to go into the merits or demerits of the deep-sea trawler as against the inshore fishing boat. It is a very thorny problem. The main fishing in my constituency is of the inshore type. I would appeal, therefore, to the Minister to devote his attention to the question of inshore fishing. If we equip ourselves too rapidly with deep-sea trawlers, such as were mentioned by Deputy Kyne, we are up against the difficulty that we might be bringing more fish to an already glutted market. That would be of benefit to nobody. If I might make a suggestion to the Minister it is that he should make every effort, at the source, to bring about an increase in our production of boats. We have a fair number of boatyards in this country that can provide the type of boat our fishermen want. I would ask the Minister to make money available for the purpose of financing these boats so that they can pay as they fish because any other type of repayment is a burden on the fisherman. I would ask him to do his best to get, in particular, the Kelvin engine for this type of general utility boat.

The Berehaven peninsula, which is so often referred to in song and in story, has been forgotten not only by Fianna Fáil but by Cumann na nGaedheal as well. Down there we once had a live fishing centre. The Minister may say that the frequent visits of the British Navy were responsible for part of the prosperity that was there but I would point out to him that it is an area that can be developed towards the fulfilment of our fish requirements and towards the building of our fish exports. It is adjacent to some of the finest fishing grounds known to fishermen. If Deputy Kyne speaks of the French, Belgian and other foreign trawlers which he sees around Waterford it would be an experience for him, or indeed for anybody, to drive from Bantry to Berehaven and see the armada of Spanish trawlers. That is a clear indication that the fish is there and, that being so, I would urge the Minister to use his ingenuity and every other attribute with which he is endowed in an endeavour to push through this House any measure which will enable him to get the money to provide the equipment which is so urgently needed by our fishermen. It is hardly necessary for me to say that ultimately this country will recoup itself in the amount of fish caught in that area.

I do not know if the Minister has any direct function in regard to the transport and the marketing of fish but I feel that he has not. As an adjunct to his drive to put fishing once and for all on the basis of a proper national industry I would ask him to inquire into the whole question of the transport and the marketing of fish. I do not quite agree with Deputy Lynch in regard to the Cork fish market. I know that from Bantry and from Berehaven we supply a lot of fish direct to the Cork market. There are parts of Cork, and parts of West Cork, with fishing towns—Baltimore, Sherkin Island, Cape Clear, Bantry and the Berehaven peninsula—and some of the big hotels there have to get their fish requirements sent to them from Dublin.

There is something grotesque about the present organisation of the fishing industry. The Minister, if he has any function in the matter, should—somewhere in West Cork where there is a tremendous fish harvest—assist those people, if possible by a State subsidy, who might be inclined to make a co-operative effort, by providing a proper freezing and salting plant. I should prefer if it were established on the Berehaven peninsula. I would also ask the Minister to build up, somewhere in this country, a proper type of fish cannery because, believe it or not, Irish fishermen are throwing back into the sea pilchards for which the British would give 1/10 a box.

Mr. Ormonde

I intend to be brief. I know little or nothing about the fishing industry but there are one or two matters affecting my constituents to which I wish to refer. By far the greater percentage of the people living on the banks of the Blackwater are owners of the land in fee simple. Of these, however, there are very few who possess the fishing rights or have even the right to fish the waters within the bounds of their own land. Here, you have the extraordinary position of the Land Commission having purchased estates and having vested the tenants in fee simple; through shortsightedness, the tenants, when they entered into their purchase agreements, omitted to secure the fishing and gaming rights. Some, however, were wise enough to refuse to purchase until they got the fishing rights. They are the only people who enjoy these rights to-day.

It was an extraordinary oversight on the part of the Land Commission, when vesting the tenants, not to put this matter right at that time. That was the time to do it. If it had been done we would not now have the ridiculous position of fishing rights being held by landlords who have left the district long since and from whom the land has been purchased and who have not even access to portions of the river in which they own the rights except by trespassing on the lands of the tenant purchasers. You have long stretches of the River Blackwater on which the rights are owned by one or two persons. I suggest it is time now for the Department to step in and acquire these fishing rights from these people who retain them under the Land Purchase Acts and grant them to the tenant purchasers.

Mr. Dillon

To grant them—to make a present of them?

Mr. Ormonde

Not exactly to make a present of them.

Mr. Dillon

Is it to sell them then?

Mr. Ormonde

To sell them.

Mr. Dillon

Do you think they would buy them?

Mr. Ormonde

I think they would. They would be very glad to buy them. In that way something would be done towards affording the best possible protection to our inland fisheries because local interest in the fishing would be developed and the desire of owners to protect their rights would reduce poaching to a minimum. If the Minister would take the trouble to investigate he would find that less poaching is carried on where the owners of the land also possess the fishery rights. Much damage has been done to the rivers in recent years. They have been depleted of their stocks of fish by illegal methods, particularly by the netting of trout and salmon during the close season. The obvious way in which to stop that and to secure the cooperation of the people in the preservation of our fisheries is to grant the proprietary fishing rights to the owners of the land on the banks of the rivers.

Deputy Moylan referred to the operation of the weirs on the rivers. There is a long-standing complaint in regard to the operation of the weir at Lismore which affects the run of salmon to the western reaches of the river. I understand some improvement has been made in recent years with regard to this weir, but it is yet very far from satisfactory. Lismore Estate Company have been operating this weir in a very unfair manner and they have been taking from that weir tons of fish year after year. They reap the real benefit from the fishery and the ordinary anglers above the weir have very poor fishing indeed. Although some improvement has been effected here, I think it would be well worth the Minister's while to have an inquiry into the operation of that weir.

Mr. McQuillan

Although I am a representative of an inland constituency, yet I have a very great interest in the development of our fisheries. I consider that fishing is one of the industries in which we need a new approach. It is the cinderella of our industries. In our new Minister I think we have a man who has the energy and ability to put into effect new ideas and put new life into this industry that has been neglected for so long.

I am somewhat perturbed at the trend this debate has taken with regard to sea fisheries. Something of a controversy has arisen as to whether or not the inshore fishermen are going to suffer if we launch out into the setting up of a deep-sea fishing fleet. Deputy Collins said he would not enter into that controversy. I do not propose to go very far into it either except to say that the generally accepted idea here seems to be to provide fish for Friday. I have heard the Minister state, as far as I recollect, that he is only interested in eating fish on Friday. I would eat fish every day of the week and I know plenty of people in the country who would do the same if they could get it. But it is not for the sake of providing fish for eating that we should be interested in the development of our fisheries. There is a much wider aspect involved.

We are an island. We have one of the biggest coastlines in the world for a country of our size. Right around that coastline we have one of the best sources of natural wealth which any country ever had at its disposal. Week after week we see these Spanish and Portuguese trawlers lying along our coastline. They find it a paying proposition to fish. Yet, we are told that if we develop deep-sea fishing our inshore fishermen are going to suffer. That might be so if we rushed the development of a deep-sea fishing fleet, but I maintain that if we start slowly but surely no damage will be done to them. Picture, for instance, the Gaeltacht areas, in the preservation of which we all profess such deep interest; picture Clifden or Galway City with a fleet of deep-sea trawlers based in those towns going forth into the Atlantic equipped with the most up-to-date gear and plant for preserving and keeping the fish fresh; picture those trawlers returning to Clifden or Galway at the end of their voyage and picture all along that coast factories where the surplus catches could be processed and turned into useful by-products, turned into fish oil, fish fats and fish meal, and, turned into those products by the hands of young Irish men and women along our coastline— young Irish men and women who are now flying from our country year after year. These factories would absorb all that population; these factories would absorb the inshore fishermen in the long run. There would be work for everybody, not on fishing alone but in the factories that would be set up.

I do not say that the Minister can rush this development. He has a big job on hands with regard to agriculture and I wish him every success in it. He has stated that he wants in agriculture the most up-to-date methods so far as we are able to procure them for that work. I would ask him to adopt the same attitude with regard to our fisheries. I would also suggest— although he did make the suggestion himself with regard to Marshall Aid— that if a grant is made available to this country I can think of no better way of spending it than by furthering the fishing industry here.

With regard to the Sea Fisheries Association, Deputy Lynch made a statement with which I thoroughly agree. He stated that the fish which were caught in Cork and sold to the Sea Fisheries Association were sent on to Dublin and then sent back again to Cork. I know that that also happened in Galway City. The fish that were caught in Galway Bay were sold to the Sea Fisheries Association, sent to the distribution centre in Dublin and then sent back to Galway to be distributed among consumers there. If that is sound business, I am a Dutchman.

I believe that one of the main reasons why our fisheries have been neglected is the great lack of interest taken in fisheries in this House in the past. To-day and yesterday Deputies have interested themselves in this subject but, judging by the debates here in past years, this Estimate has gone through the House in a very short time. Take the number of Deputies who spoke on the Vote for the Department of Agriculture and the number of hours devoted to that Vote, and then compare the time devoted to the consideration of the Fisheries Vote, and you will see that sufficient pressure was not put behind the Minister to carry out ideas with regard to fisheries with the same enthusiasm as he intends to work for agriculture. I appeal to the Minister, if he has any dislike for the policy of getting under way a deep-sea fishing industry, to consider that matter more carefully and ascertain whether it would interfere with the living of the inshore fishermen.

Mr. Spring

Deputy McQuillan has compared the time taken up in this House with the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture and the Estimate for the Department of Fisheries. We all know there was a whole week wasted discussing the Vote for the Department of Agriculture —it was a complete waste of time.

I do not profess to know very much about fishing, but there are a few matters connected with fishing in which I am interested. We hear a lot of talk about putting more fish on the market. If we want to do that we must give the fishermen who bring in the fish proper boats and gear. During the war it was very hard to get that gear, but now that the emergency has passed I appeal to the Minister to use every influence to get the gear and put both boats and gear at the disposal of the fishermen.

People from Dingle come week after week telling me they made application years ago to the Department and the Sea Fisheries Association for boats, but so far they have received only acknowledgments. It is unfair to have these people applying year after year for these boats and receiving only acknowledgments. If we are anxious to have more fish placed on the market, then our first duty is to equip these people with suitable boats and gear.

As regards the marketing of fish, I live in a town some 31 miles from Dingle and in that town we cannot get fish. The people in my town would eat fish on any day if they could get it. They see fish coming from Dingle day after day, piled into wagons and sent to Dublin, but they cannot get fish locally under any circumstances.

The Minister, I am sure, heard me and other Deputies in the constituency putting questions in connection with piers in the Dingle peninsula, and particularly Dunquin pier. That pier was undermined some years ago and the local fishermen have been looking since for a grant to put it into proper condition. I went there on one occassion and I witnessed what the fishermen have to suffer. I saw the fishermen coming in in their canoes after spending the whole night out at sea and they had to wait for hours under a rock in order to safeguard their boats and to protect themselves from being drowned. They had to protect themselves from the elements and from the Atlantic. They had to wait until the water reached a certain height so as to permit them to bring their boats to the pier. After bringing them to the pier they had to climb for nearly 200 feet in order to bring the fish up to the main road. After putting the fish and their tackle on the main road they had to carry their canoes on their backs. There were no facilities at the pier to assist them in unloading their boats. That is what the fishermen at Dunquin have to suffer.

The Minister should get in touch with the Minister for Finance and the Parliamentary Secretary with the object of putting this pier into proper repair as early as possible. There are several other piers in the Dingle peninsula and they also need immediate attention. The people in those areas are solely dependent on fishing for a livelihood. I appeal again most earnestly to the Minister to do all he can to put boats and gear at the disposal of the people who require them.

Some difficulty has arisen with regard to the repair of boats. I know that the best boat in Dingle was out of action for two months because the owner could not get a shaft for the engine. It had to be imported from some part of England and they were two months waiting for it. Unless the Government render assistance in putting boats and gear at the disposal of the people we cannot expect to have the fish.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

Béidir dá labhrainn as Gaeilge go gcuirfeadh sé deireadh leis an díospóireacht ar an Meastachán seo, mar do mheasas go mbeadh críoch léi roimhe seo. Ar aon chuma, lá oiriúnach is ea é seo, chun díospóireacht ar chúrsaí iascaireachta, mar is í an Aoine atá ann.

Tá suim mhór agam in iascairí an Daingin, agus tamall ó shoin do chuireas ceist ar an Aire Tionscail agus Tráchtála, féachaint an gcuirfeadh sé deontas ar fáil chun dreidireacht a dhéanamh i gcuan an Daingin, chun iascaireacht a dhéanamh níos fusa agus níos sábhálta do na hiascairí. Tá géarghá le scéim den tsórt sin ann. Is é an freagra a fuaireas uaidh ná go raibh sé ag cur na ceiste fan bhráid an Aire Thailte agus Iascaigh. Ansin do chuireas ceist ar an Aire sin agus dúirt sé sa bhfreagra go gcuirfeadh sé an scéal faoi iniúchadh, dá bhfaigheadh sé scéim oiriúnach ó na hiascairí sa Daingean. Do cheapas-sa gur chuireadar scéim go dtí an Roinn Tionscail agus Tráchtála tamall roimhe sin agus béidir, má tá ceangal agus liaison idir an dá Roinn, go bhfuighfí an scéim atá i gceist sa Roinn Tionscail agus Tráchtála.

Maidir le caladh Dhún Chaoin, an ealadh a raibh an cainteor deireannach ag caint mar gheall air, is cuimhin liom go raibh sé sin idir lámha againn cheana agus is dóigh liom go raibh an Stát an uair sin toilteannach deontas a chur ar fáil chun an caladh sin a chur in oiriúnt do na hiascairí dá mbeadh an chomhairle chontae sásta é a choimeád agus an casán atá ag dul síos chuige a choimeád i dtreo. An uair sin, ní raibh an comhairle chontae sásta é sin a dhéanamh agus chuir sé sin deireadh leis an scéim ach blféidir, ar a shon san, go bhféadfaí rud éigin a dhéanamh chun an chás d'fheabhsú do na hiascairí sin mar gan aon agó níl aon chur síos ar an deacracht agus an anró a bhíos ar na hiascairí bochta a bhíos ag iarraidh an t-iase a chur i dtír san áit sin.

Maidir le cosaint na hiascaireachta, is tábhachtach an rud é sin agus ba bheag an mhaitheas dúinn bheith ag cur síos ar conas cúrsaí iascaireachta a chur ar aghaidh mara mbeadh an chosaint cheart ann, mara mbeadh na báidchosanta ann. Is mór an trua gur shocruigh an Rialtas ar an méid bád atá againn chun cosanta a laghdú. Ní cheart é sin mar sé an rud is mó a theastaíonn ó na hiascairí ná cosaint ar na tráiléirí a bhíonn ag teacht isteach timpeall an chósta. Tá a fhios agam go maith nách furaist é dhéanamh —is deacair é. Is deacair cosaint a dhéanamh ar an gcósta ar fad timpeall na hÉireann agus sar a mbeadh a fhios ag lucht na mbád chosanta an díobháil a bhéadh ar siúl, bhéadh na tráiléirí imithe.

Maidir le bád agus gléas iascaireachta, is mór atá siad sin de dhíth ar na hiascairí sa Daingean. Mar dúirt an cainteoir deireannach, tá curtha isteach acu ar bháid nua, báid a bheadh oiriúnach don fhairrge agus na ghléasanna cearta acu. Tá fhios agam go rabh, do dheascaibh an chogaidh, gantanas bád agus lionta agus mar sin de, le tamall maith anuas, agus b'fhéidir, le cúnamh Dé, go bhfuil an scéal ag dul i bhfeabhas anois.

Séamus Díolún

Beagáinín beag.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

Is maith é sin. Beagáinín féin, is maith é. Gheobhaidh an tAire amach ón gColucht Iascaí Mhara a fheabhas atá iascairí an Daingin ag cur díobh maidir le hiascaireacht. Tá iascairí an Daingin, is dóigh liom, ar na hiascairí is fearr timpeall an chósta agus tá siad chomh maith sin go dtéann siad suas chó fada le Dún na nGall.

Rinne an tAire tagairt do na hiasachtaí airgid a tugadh dos na hiascairí fadó. Tugadh iasachtaí airgid dóibh agus do dhíol cuid acu an iasacht thar n-ais, ach is dóigh liom go bhfuighidh an tAire amach go raibh iascairí an Daingin ar na hiascairí a b'fhearr a dhíol an tairgead thar n-ais. Dá bhrí sin, agus mar gheall air sin, is dóigh liom gur cheart féachaint chuige go ndéanfar iarracht pé cabhair a bhéas ag teastáil uathu feasta a thabhairt dóibh.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

I just want to say that I agree with the other Deputies who have suggested that the fishing industry should be developed to the greatest possible extent. I believe that the fishing industry is next in importance to agriculture and that it has been as neglected as agriculture has been neglected in the past. The point I want to bring to the notice of the Minister is that there is a place in Cork called Kinsale with vast fishing grounds off its coast, fishing grounds that are being worked by trawlers from all over Europe. I want the Minister to give to the people of Kinsale all the help he possibly can to develop the industry there. It is a town which has gone down a lot owing to circumstances over which the citizens had no control, and it is a town which is naturally suited for the development of the fishing industry. We have been told that the Fisheries Association is not an autonomous body and I would ask the Minister to use his influence with that association to help the people of Kinsale to develop fishing and industries ancillary to it in that area. The Minister should also do something to see that fish is regularly distributed throughout the inland areas and so increase the market for fish caught off the coasts of Kinsale. In this country the majority of our people would eat fish on at least one day in the week if it were available, and I think it is a scandalous state of affairs that people living in inland areas cannot get fish on that particular day. I hope the Minister will give favourable consideration to any requests that may come to him from Kinsale in connection with the development of this industry.

Mr. T. Brennan

In my constituency there is at least one town in which more people are engaged in the fishing industry than in any other town of its size in Ireland. I should like in a few brief remarks to point out some of the difficulties under which these people labour. They labour under practically the same grievances as those mentioned by other Deputies in connection with their constituencies. I should like, in particular, to draw the Minister's attention to applications that may come from time to time from people in the town of Arklow engaged in the fishing industry for assistance of various types. I am sure these applications will get sympathetic consideration from the Minister or the Fisheries Association. One of the main grievances which I hear mentioned from time to time by people engaged in the industry in Arklow has already been mentioned by most Deputies, namely, the question of the disposal of surplus fish. It does seem an absurd position to find, when large shoals of fish appear in the fishing grounds, that after perhaps two nights' fishing the fishermen are informed: "it is foolish for you to go out to-night because any fish you may bring in cannot be disposed of." That, to the ordinary individual, seems to be an absurd position when there are many people in inland areas who would be glad to eat fish if it were provided for them. Yet that position recurs periodically. At present there does not seem to be any way of getting over the difficulty of placing surplus fish supplies at the disposal of those who would take on their distribution and transportation throughout the country.

I live in an inland district myself and the only fish that we can obtain is herring whenever they are in season. We are at the mercy, if you like, of people who go to the ports, either with motor lorries or horse carts, and who buy the fish and transport them a distance of 14 or 20 miles to the inland areas where they are retailed. That happens only occasionally when herring is in season. So far as other types of fish are concerned we never see them except when we get them from the City of Dublin. Yet we are within 18 or 20 miles of the important fishing centre of Arklow. The fact that such a situation obtains in the inland portion of the country is an indication that there is something seriously wrong with the fishing industry in this country.

I was very much struck by a remark made by Deputy Breslin who, I am sure, knows the industry from A to Z. He stated that, in his opinion, until we get a separate Ministry of Fisheries, the fishing industry will never make any progress in this country. Living as we do on an island, most people would assume that the fishing industry would be second only in importance to agriculture. It must have been considered of very great importance at one period because—I am open to correction, but I think I am stating the facts —in the First Dáil we had a separate Ministry of Fisheries and the Minister was the late Mr. Seán Etchingham of Courtown Harbour. What happened in the meantime I do not know but, at any rate, the industry was considered of such importance that we were prepared in the early days of the republic to set up a separate Ministry of Fisheries. For that reason I was struck by the suggestion of Deputy Breslin. I am not going to voice the same opinion as he did because of the fact that I am not sufficiently acquainted with the fishing industry as a whole.

Another difficulty experienced in Arklow is connected with the bar. Occasionally the bar silts up with the result that boats are not able to get in. From time to time, the harbour board took action in the matter and I must sat that, during my time as a member of the board, whenever the officials of the Department were approached to help in any way or to give advice, they did their best. I know that heretofore there was a token Estimate of a certain amount to provide for such work as dredging but this year it appears that no such provision is made. Why I do not know. The same difficulty experienced by fishermen obtains also with regard to trading vessels and whenever a dredger has to be employed it carries out the double function of keeping the bar open for trading vessels as well as for fishing craft. I hope that at any time the harbour board are abliged to approach the Department of Fisheries for financial assistance to keep the bar open for the fishing boats the Minister will do his best so far as the fishing end is concerned anyhow. They have been very helpful. I was glad to hear the Minister say that he visualises the day when every citizen can join in the sport of fishing on our rivers.

Mr. Kennedy

He is going to stop that.

Mr. Dillon

I would like to see it.

Mr. T. Brennan

It seems an absurd thing that a farmer cannot fish on a river that is running through his holding due to the fact that at one time he gave away certain rights. The fact that individuals can fish on our rivers will not be something new, because at present that can be done in the case of certain rivers.

Mr. Dillon

I know another river where that obtains.

Mr. T. Brennan

That position was brought about by the buying out of certain fishing rights. The matter was brought prominently before the public eye and the right to fish was established in the case, for example, of the River Slaney on which a man who takes out a licence can fish for brown trout. I am glad to see that the Minister has that revolutionary outlook and that he is anxious that people should be able to engage in this sport.

Deputy O'Leary rose.

Mr. Kennedy

I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that there was a mutual agreement that this Vote would be finished to-day.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid there was such an understanding, but the Chair has no power to prevent a Deputy from speaking.

Mr. O'Leary

I do not intend to delay the Minister. I wish to bring to his notice the fact that the men who engage in net fishing on the Slaney approached previous Ministers with a request that they should be allowed to start fishing earlier—to start on the 1st of March each year instead of on the 1st of April. If that were done it would meet their wishes. The only people who objected to that were the rod fishermen who killed the fish higher up the river. The net fishermen and their families are dependent on their earnings from fishing. Hence, I would ask the Minister to remember the request that was made to him a few weeks ago by a deputation of those fishermen.

Mr. Kilroy

I wish to refer briefly to the condition of the fishing in North Mayo. It is in a bad way at present and something should be done to improve it. The decline is largely due to the fact that the piers and the slips are in such a bad condition that the men fear if they go out to fish they may not be able to get back to the mainland. There is a pier at Graughill, near Belmullet. During the first world war a mine exploded beside it and shattered it. It has never since been repaired. It is a shame that it has not been put in proper repair. About 20 crews used to go out fishing there every year but now they are not doing so because they are afraid they may not be able to get back, due to the condition of the pier.

Mr. Dillon

What is the name of that pier?

Mr. Kilroy

It is Graughill, near Belmullet, in County Mayo. Something should be done about that pier. Other piers around the coast which were done in the British time have also fallen into disrepair and nothing much has been done to them since. If these slips were put into proper repair the fishermen would be enticed to go out, but there is no enticement for them at present on that very treacherous coast, for the coast between Lacken and Achill is as treacherous a coast as there is in Ireland. The first thing is to put these piers into repair and to improve the position with regard to better boats and gear which are wanted along this coast. I would urge that our fresh water fishermen should get consideration and compensation where they have been put out of employment. That is all I have to say.

Mr. Dillon

There are some people, you know, Deputy, who wish that that mine that struck the pier near Belmullet blew it away altogether. But I do not take that view, and I promise the Deputy that the representations he has made in regard to that pier will be carefully examined and, if it is possible to put it in a state of repair for the convenience of the fishermen there, it shall be done.

Deputy Spring is impatient for boats and engines. So am I. Everything I can possibly do is being done to get engines wherewith to equip the boats. The matter was looked into when we were in London and the negotiations are still going on.

Deputy Spring spoke, as did Deputy Kissane, about the situation in Dunquin. That situation is being dealt with by a special committee which was established by I think the Minister for Lands, and that committee will make its report.

I am sorry that Deputy McQuillan has left the House because he is a most enthusiastic man. He wants to see a fleet of trawlers ploughing the seven seas to bring fish in here, but we must make up our minds. There would be no difficulty about having them. We can have them to-morrow, but we cannot have trawlers and inshore fishermen. If we are going to have a great trawling industry in this country we will wipe the inshore fishermen out. It is all nonsense to say that we can dot the whole West coast with factories to turn the fish into fishmeal and fish manure and employ the whole population. I do not think that Deputy McQuillan believes that. If he does believe it, I would be very glad if he would come into my Department and sit with the experts——

Captain Cowan

It is Clann na Poblachta policy, of course.

Mr. Dillon

Well, many a Party of enthusiastic men started out hoping to achieve great things which seemed obvious but which when they came to examine them did not look like a practical possibility and discovered that they could not be done. The Deputy says it is Clann na Poblachta policy. It is my policy in that I would like to see all the fishermen of this country employed in a great wealth-producing industry which would provide the foundation of factories and employment near home for all the people of that part of Ireland whence I come. In that sense, it is my policy too. I would like to see it come, but I know that it will not.

Mr. Timoney

Where there is a will there is a way.

Mr. Dillon

No, that is an illusion. It is waste of time, waste of money and what is in my opinion the cruellest part, waste of youthful enthusiasm, to be exhorting people to do their best to achieve that kind of end, when you know perfectly well that it cannot be done. If it can be done, I am for it, but I am not going ahead with it when careful reflection and the best investigation I can do convince me that it cannot be done. People imagine that if you can bring in trawlers and have lots of fish in this country, you can build up a great industry for fish-meal and fish manure; but what they quite forget is that they are, in fact, proposing that the main part of our industry should be the by-products.

The principal function of the fishing industry is to supply fish for human consumption. When you have a great industrial population, such as in Great Britain, where fish and chip shops consume an amazingly high percentage of the total catch of the British trawling fleets, where the population is given to eating fish, a fish-eating people, you can then take the residue of those catches which are utterly unsuitable for human consumption, the small fish, the coarse fish, the unpalatable fish, the fish of unfamiliar quality and calibre, and throw them all into fish manure and fish-meal factories rather than throw them back into the sea. That is only economic, however, provided you have a rich market for the bulk of the catch in the field of human consumption. To imagine that you can have a trawling industry on the assumption that you are going to treat the whole catch, virtually, as a worthless by-product, is just not practical politics. It will not work and, if you try to do it, you will do nothing but harm. In the process of trying to do it, you will destroy the whole way of life of the inshore fishermen, which, once destroyed, can never be restored.

Mr. Timoney

It is begging the question to describe it as a "worthless by-product".

Mr. Dillon

You are dealing with it as though it were worthless, and by bringing it in for conversion into fish-meal or fish manure you give it a value which is quite divorced from the usual value associated with fish. You turn it into a low grade, protein animal foodstuff or you turn it into very, very low grade potassic and potassium manure. You could not go to a more expensive source for these things than to comb the seven seas with trawlers. You could manufacture them in a chemical factory at one-fiftieth of the cost. If you have the raw materials for nothing as a by-product of a wealthy industry producing fish for human consumption it is a different matter.

Deputy John Flynn wanted to know why I would not take the fishing rights from the landlords and give them to the riparian owners. What good would that do? If you are going to take the rights from the present owners, its only use would be to give them to the entire community. It would be no use to take them from the big owner to give them to the little owner. My experience in this troubled world has been that often the little owner is a great deal more jealous of his rights than the big owner. One fellow would give you a day's fishing but the other fellow is only interested in what is to go into the bank. If you are to take all the rights from the existing owners you should give them to the community as a whole and hold them for the community as a whole, and then let the tramp and the millionaire have equal rights on the banks of our rivers.

The Lismore Weir is the next familiar friendly old warrior. It has come up in this House ever since this State was set up, and it will be coming up, I suppose, as long as the river flows by Lismore. A considerable portion of the time of every commission that has ever been set up has been devoted to lamentations about Lismore Weir, but they seem to be getting on all right there. Some fish appear to get up the river and, as someone recently said to me, even fishes have fathers and mothers. Unless some of them went up the river there would be no fishes there; and there are fishes.

You would think that Deputy Little was an innocent young lad coming in off the side of the road, but he has been for 15 years a Cabinet Minister and he asks me why we have not got dredgers. He was sitting for 15 years, cheek by jowl with the Minister in the Cabinet and he never got the dredger, and it never dawned on him to ask for the past 15 years why he would not get it. We have three old crocks of dredgers. The youngest, the sprightliest, amongst them was purchased second-hand in 1906. It has been falling to pieces ever since, but we have managed to hold it together. I am hoping to inspire the authorities to acquire a more modern implement. Under the impact of the mechanisation of agriculture, we might persuade them to mechanise the dredgers, and I can assure Deputies that, if I do succeed, we will be able to do more in the matter of dredging for Deputy Little than he was able to do for himself in the past 15 years.

Imagine Deputy Little getting up here and saying that he deplores the failure of the Government to protect the fishing grounds around Waterford from the incursions of the foreign invader! Imagine the brazen-faced audacity of the Deputy! He was thumping the tub in this country 25 years ago that he was going to do the "divil in a bag," if the people put him into office, about the French, the Greek and the Italian trawlers, and he then sat like a bump on a log for the past 15 years. Then he comes in here to bleat at me about French trawlers: There are depths of blooming "codology" that make me physically sick, and, so far as I am concerned about Deputy Little and French trawlers, he can go and take a running jump at himself. He was 15 years in Government, and, if he was not able to do anything in that period, I am blowed if I am going to do it for him now. So far as the fishermen are concerned, if we do not do more for them than Deputy Little did in the past 15 years, I am a Dutchman.

Deputy Kyne wanted to know why the dredging at Helvic Head was not done. It was largely because the poor old dredger was almost incapable of putting to sea, but we hope to get her down there about September. The Waterford County Council will have to put up their share of £4,000, instead of £1,800, and perhaps Deputy Kyne would be good enough to start breaking the news to them that that will be necessary.

Deputy O'Higgins had a suggestion to make about a flat rate for salmon fishing and a lower rate for white trout fishing. Was I correct in believing that he was concerned to do away with the system whereby it is necessary to get a separate salmon licence for the fishery area in which you wish to go fishing for salmon, because, if that is his proposal, I entirely agree with him; but whether I shall be able to make my Department agree with me is quite another question. It is a technical subject and it does seem odd to me that it should be necessary to pay a separate licence for each fishery area in which you elect to fish, but it is a matter into which I will look and perhaps the Deputy will excuse me if I do no more than undertake to have a word with him later on.

Deputy Lynch lamented the price of fish. I have nothing whatever to do with the fixation of the price of fish.

Mr. Lynch

The distribution of fish.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy pointed out that the increased freight charges made it impossible to sell fish in Cork at the price fixed for retail sale in Dublin. I entirely agree with him in that respect and I think he is perfectly right, but unfortunately I have nothing to do with the fixation of prices, but I am hoping that we will be able to get something done about that. I think some fish is sent direct to Cork.

Mr. Lynch

Some.

Mr. Dillon

To tell the truth, the technicalities of the wholesale distribution of a commodity like fish are very complex and it is not a matter into which the Minister would be well advised to rush headlong. However, as the Deputy will remember, an advisory committee has been set up and these very matters are being referred to them to advise us as to what is the best method of reforming the method of distribution, and so forth.

Of course, the Deputy is perfectly right; the problem of flax dams contaminating rivers is one of the utmost gravity and has been exercising our minds. Perhaps the Deputy will say, if the matter comes under his notice, to those who may be interested, that if persons contemplating the erection of flax dams will get in touch with the Department we shall be happy to send an engineer down to show how to lay out a system of settling beds around the dam which will permit flax to be retted and water to be drained off through settling beds in a way which will guarantee that there will be no contamination of the river. I have made it quite clear that under the Act of 1939 riparian rights of net fishing in fresh-water rivers are in process of being extinguished. There is no need to get fussed about it because full compensation is provided for the persons who are dispossessed and independent arbitration will be established and, anyone who is not satisfied with the arbitrator's award, has a right of appeal. There is nothing I can do about that. That is the law and the law was passed by Oireachtas Éireann with pretty general consent. To tell the honest truth, I do not want to change it but I would be very much distressed indeed if there were a suggestion that anyone did not get fair compensation. I am quite satisfied they will get it.

Deputy Moylan spoke of the inland fisheries. He had not heard what I said at the opening and, if he had, he would realise that in regard to many of the matters about which he is concerned I share his concern and am doing what I can. Deputy Bartley was very benevolent but, Deputy Bartley did not come down with yesterday's shower and can say a benevolent thing, with a gracious and co-operative sound about it in Dublin, which will be as poisoned a barb as it is possible to conceive in Connemara?

Mr. Bartley

How is that?

Mr. Dillon

"How is that?"— Because the Deputy did not come down in yesterday's shower.

Mr. Bartley

The Minister is not explaining his remark.

Mr. Dillon

I am going to. Do not be a bit uneasy. When the Deputy says, en passant, that, of course, it is common property that the Sea Fisheries Association was a most partial body, he looks hopefully at Deputy Dunne and, right enough, Deputy Dunne sounds a pleasing echo. What is going to happen? Deputy Bartley is going to say in Connemara that he had but to mention the gross and notorious rascality, the vile exploitation of the simple fishermen by the corrupt and stinking Sea Fisheries Association——

Mr. Bartley

No.

Mr. Dillon

——when Deputy Dunne sprang to his feet and said: "Perfectly right, I know it well, the most partial——"

Mr. Bartley

I did not say that, a Chinn Comhairle.

Mr. Dillon

"——and rotten body."

Mr. Dunne

Did I use those words?

Mr. Dillon

Not at all, but I am just putting the little embroidery on them that will be put on in Connemara. To hear Deputy Bartley here, he is like a cooing dove, but then, you see, I am listening to him with the ear of Connaught. Deputy Bartley knows as well as I know that a more impartial body never functioned in this country than the Sea Fisheries Association. Fifteen years' stalwart campaign by Deputy Bartley and a few more old somachans of the Fianna Fáil Party to get control of the Association failed and they have never succeeded in getting their claws on it to use it for the purposes of the Fianna Fáil Party; and they never will get control of it, with the help of God. It was run impartially, without any regard whatever to the individuality of any applicant that ever came before it, except to do its best for everybody. Energetic efforts have been made year after year to get control of it as an instrument of Fianna Fáil terrorism during the last 15 years, and every time they tried we "bet" the tar out of them, and will again. That is why it is called now a partial body—because it would not play the game of the Fianna Fáil political machine, and it never will. That is the plain fact.

Mr. Bartley

Why does not the Minister give the information about the membership of the association to indicate to what extent it is dead?

Mr. Dillon

It is distressing to some of my colleagues to think that I would speak that roughly of Deputy Bartley, he having been so nice and gentle to me, but I know very well what he is up to. The ten-mile limit has been discussed for years and years. It was discussed by all the nations of Europe at The Hague in 1930, I think, and everybody having expressed approval in principle, the unanimous resolution of all the nations concerned at the end was that they all agreed that no country should have less than a three-mile limit. On that note of accord, they adjourned indefinitely. I would be very glad to agree to fix a seven, ten or 12 mile limit, but there is no use in my trying to rearrange the whole international law that governs the high seas. If I send out a coastguard cutter, or whatever I have, to catch a trawler which is outside the three-mile limit, I should be guilty of piracy and the trawler or its protector might swoop down on me and blow the bottom out of my cutter, amidst universal rejoicing—and I am not at all sure that the captain of the cutter would not render himself liable to be hanged, if arrested for piracy on the high seas.

Did you hear about the boat? Deputy Bartley, gentle as a lamb, not wanting to be rude or offensive, wanted the Minister to know that the Sea Fisheries Association had in their possession a boat that they were quite free to dispose of as they choose. A patriotic ex-serviceman, a man who served in the Irish Army, applied for the boat. Instantly the sinister hand was to be seen. He was turned down on the spot. There was no use for an Irish soldier in the Sea Fisheries Association and they ran him like a dog, though they were perfectly free to give it. But Deputy Bartley did not add that they were prohibited by law from giving it and that there was no means within the law of this country whereby they could have given it. If the Deputy had dropped a halfpenny postcard to me or to the association, or to the secretary of the Department, he would have been told all about it. The boat was provided for certain experimental purposes to be carried out by the association and the association had no power to alienate that boat to any living creature. A halfpenny postcard would have elicited those facts. I could not stop before I told about the poor downtrodden ex-serviceman.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is two minutes to 2 o'clock.

Mr. Dillon

Look at all the stuff I have left to deal with, but I could not forbear telling about Deputy Bartley's innocent ex-serviceman.

Mr. Bartley

Does the Minister seriously say that it would not be legal to give it to the ex-serviceman?

Mr. Dillon

I do.

Mr. Bartley

I challenge the Minister.

Mr. Dillon

But it is two minutes to 2 o'clock. Is not the Deputy great to challenge me when I have only two minutes to reply. A halfpenny postcard could have brought him the facts some weeks ago? When did this come to his notice first?

Mr. Bartley

Last year, sometime.

Mr. Dillon

Why did the Deputy not deal with it then?

Mr. Bartley

I handed in a Question and it was refused.

Mr. Dillon

Look at him now, as busy as a bee.

Mr. Bartley

My Question was refused in the Public Office.

Mr. Dillon

A halfpenny postcard addressed to the Department would have found it out. He had 12 months while Deputy Smith was responsible for this Department, to kick up a shine in his Party or in the Department about this, if he wanted honestly to put wrong right. But he wanted to pretend to-day that there was some dark, evil purpose at the back of all this.

Vote put and agreed to.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. to 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 20th July, 1948.