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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 6 Aug 1948

Vol. 112 No. 13

Social Welfare Bill—Final Stages.

I move amendment No. 1:—

In page 13, before Section 38, but in Chapter I, to insert a new section as follows:—

38. (1) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Acts, where—

(a) the widow of a man remarries, and

(b) a child of such man is during any period—

(i) detained in a reformatory or industrial school, or

(ii) in pursuance of an order of a court, in the custody of some person other than such widow, or

(iii) deserted or abandoned by such widow, or

(iv) resident in an institution or boarded out by a public assistance authority,

payment may be made in accordance with the Acts during that period of an orphan's (contributory) pension in respect of such child, but such pension shall be at the same rate as the rate of the child's (contributory) allowance that would be payable if such widow had not remarried and such child were living with her.

(2) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Acts, where—

(a) the widow of a man remarries, and

(b) a child of such man is at the time of the marriage—

(i) detained in a reformatory or industrial school, or

(ii) in pursuance of an order of the court, in the custody of some person other than such widow, or

(iii) deserted or abandoned by such widow, or

(iv) resident in an institution or boarded out by a public assistance authority, and

(c) such widow subsequently resumes custody of the child,

payment of any child's (contributory) allowance that may be appropriate may be made in accordance with the Acts in respect of the child as from the time when custody of the child is resumed.

(3) This section shall be deemed to have come into operation on the 1st day of January, 1947.

Perhaps I should explain the purpose of this amendment. A case came to notice, and it may be one of many, in which, because of the structure of the main Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act, what appeared to us to be a case of hardship occurred. The case was one of a widow who had three children attending an institution where they were accommodated and educated. In accordance with the provisions of the Act an orphan's allowance was payable to the institution in respect of the detention and education of the children there. The widow subsequently remarried and, on remarriage, the Act provides that the orphans' allowances will cease to be payable to the institution in respect of the children. Because the children's allowances were not payable to the widow at the date of her remarriage—the children being in an institution and the orphans' allowances being paid to the institution, the widow was deprived of the orphans' allowances and could not qualify for the children's allowances. It was felt that that was a hardship which the widow might have circumvented if she had known the provisions of the Act because she could have arranged to have had the children discharged from the institution a week before her remarriage and would thus have got behind the provisions of the Act. It is felt that in a case of that kind we ought either to allow the children to remain in the institution, the State paying the allowances to the institution, or allow the widow to draw children's allowances under the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act in respect of the children if she resumes the custody of the children. This amendment is designed to meet a situation of that kind.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move amendment No. 12:—

In page 13, before Section 38, but in Chapter II, to insert the following new section:—

38. In paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of Section 13 of the Principal Act the words "or the five contribution years" shall be inserted after the words "the three contribution years" and the words "or five years (as the case may be)" shall be inserted at the end of the paragraph after the words "three years".

This is an amendment which has its roots in an amendment which was moved on the Committee Stage yesterday by Deputy Mrs. Crowley. The Deputy sought to have the basis of contributions related to the payments during the five years preceding the attainment of 70 years of age or the five years preceding death. It was not clear to me that there was any advantage to the applicant by substituting five years for three years as the average would operate over the five years; and, conceivably, whilst in some instances it might be beneficial, in other instances, it might be injurious to the applicant. What I have done in this amendment, however, is to give an applicant for a pension the benefit of having the contributions calculated either on the basis of those paid during the last three years or, if it is more advantageous, on the basis of the contributions paid during the last five years.

Arising out of th Minister's statement——

Is this on th amendment?

On the amendment Sir.

Because otherwise, I would ask the Deputy to reserve any remarks for the Fifth Stage. However, if it is on the amendment, this is the proper time.

It is on the amend ment in relation to the five years' extension. I raised the matter with the Minister yesterday to cover a particular case, or cases, I had in mind. I was thinking of people who retire from various employments with ex gratic grants or pensions. Could the Minister see his way to provide that people of that type, when they come to die, would have provision made for their widows entitling them to at least a contributory pension? I know that as the Act stands at present they are entitled to contribute during the time they are in receipt of a pension, but in a number of cases they do not do that.

Surely that does not arise on the amendment?

It is dealing with the point raised yesterday when we were discussing the five years. Five years was taken in some cases which gave those inside the five years an opportunity——

Might I be permitted to deal very briefly with the point raised by Deputy Burke, even though it is somewhat extraneous? Deputy Burke is anxious to deal with the situation where a person is employed by a local authority, or by some other body, and then retires either because of reaching the age limit or because of some infirmity of mind or body, and goes out on pension of some kind or other and continues to be unemployed between that date and the date of his death. At present there is provision in the main Acts whereby a person who goes out of employment in such circumstances—that is because he is unable to continue in employment due to some physical disability or old age— may cover himself for widows' and orphans' pensions purposes and national health insurance purposes as a voluntary contributor. When such persons cease to be insurable under the Acts they are notified by the National Health Insurance Society of their right to continue as voluntary contributors and thus retain cover in the event of death for their widows and dependent children. I think it is unfortunately true, however, that many persons do not take notice of the advice given to them by the National Health Insurance Society in that respect. If they do not I am afraid there is just nothing that can be done about it in the matter of continuing their coverage for contributory widows' and orphans' pensions. My advice would be—particularly to persons of that age —that when they cease to be employed, due to some physical or other disability, they should still retain their right to voluntary insurance so as to maintain coverage for their wives and children under the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act and thus qualify for a contributory pension. That is the best way of overcoming the difficulty referred to by Deputy Burke, and if contributors take that advice they will get a very inexpensive coverage for a privilege which at ordinary commercial rates could not be bought except for a very substantial sum, probably running into hundreds of pounds.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That the Bill, as amended, be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.
Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.

Might I mention to the Minister just before he goes——

It is just one small matter that I want to raise before the Minister leaves.

On the section.

Do you mean on the Bill that has been passed? While we are waiting the Deputy may say a few words.

Strictly, it is not within the power of the Minister under the Bill at all, but the matter was mentioned here yesterday in connection with Córas Iompair Éireann pensioners. I want to suggest to the Minister that he might ask Córas Iompair Éireann, if it would be possible to deal with this matter. It was mentioned by several Deputies yesterday.

I am afraid this is completely irregular.

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