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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Mar 1949

Vol. 114 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote on Account, 1949-50 (Resumed).

The Dáil, according to Order, went into Committee on Finance and resumed consideration of the Vote on Account for the year ending 31st March, 1950.

I want to make a few observations on the Vote on Account. This is not the only country in the world in which the political device has been employed of opening a barrage of publicity against an individual for the purpose of presenting him to the country as something utterly different from what, in fact, he is. A very short time after this Government was formed a very skilful publicity campaign was launched to describe the Minister for Finance in this Government as somebody who took a sort of malicious joy in denying to everybody in the country, particularly the less well-to-do, anything which by fiscal action could be taken from him. The kept newspaper of the Opposition frequently went into hysterics about austerity for austerity's sake. They frequently became schizophrenic in their protestations on Monday that the Government was resolved to wreck the finances of the country, and in their protestations on Tuesday that if economy was carried any further the country would be populated with walking skeletons. It was like Deputy Derrig and his colleagues the day Deputy Derrig contributed to this debate. Everything his colleagues said Deputy Derrig contradicted, and everything Deputy Derrig said his colleagues contradicted.

I want to put the plain facts on record and let them speak for themselves. Deputy McGilligan was chosen by the Taoiseach as Minister for Finance, and that choice was approved by this House. He was not a month in office when he remitted taxation to the amount of £6,500,000. That taxation was to be levied on tobacco, beer and cinemas. Does anyone in this House contend that the consumption of beer and tobacco is confined to the plutocracy of Ireland? Does anyone suggest that anyone with an income less than £1,000 a year never goes to the cinema? Is it not perfectly manifest that the overwhelming verdict on that remission in taxation was that it was a remission in favour of wage earners, to whom every 1/- in their weekly budget of expenditure counts as something of substance?

It is peculiarly typical of the Minister for Finance in this Government that when a remission of taxation was to be made he should make it in a form that would ensure that any benefits such a remission conferred would be conferred first on those whose incomes were of a size that left the counting and the expenditure of every 1/- he had a matter of grave concern to the head of the family.

There is no man in the public life of this country—and I have been in it a good while—who has more constantly present to his mind the day-to-day problems of those with low incomes than our Minister for Finance. If he has a fault in that regard, it is that in carrying the vast burden of responsibility that he carries he allows such matters to dwell too heavily on his mind. Just as doctors treating the sick must dissimulate hardness of heart, for anxiety would drive them mad, just as lawyers must face their obligations to their clients with seeming indifference, because if they worried about the personal affairs of every client, they could not do their work, so Ministers of State, by giving due regard to the interests which legitimately claim their attention, must not allow themselves to be bowed down by intense personal sympathy for the individual hard cases that come their way or they would become incapacitated by the heavy responsibilities they have to carry.

If the Minister for Finance in this Government has any fault in that regard it is that he thinks too much, too deeply, and with too great an anxiety about the individual hard cases that come under his notice and which it is his constant concern to remedy and protect while attending to the other matters which would overtax the strength of any man, as they overtax his. Having made that remission of £6,500,000, did we then embark on a year, under his financial leadership, in which every service of the State was whittled down? We did not. The previous Government, having levied that £6,500,000, were called on to meet a motion in this House requesting them to make a modest adjustment in the means test. Their reply was that it was financially impossible—it could not be done.

After the present Minister for Finance had remitted that £6,500,000, he increased the old age pension, the blind pension and the widows' and orphans' pensions. He raised the pay of every public servant in the lower ranks of salary and of every State employee, and at the end of that, for the first time in 16 years, he produces a Book of Estimates with a figure on the cover thereof lower than the figure on the cover of the Book of Estimates in the previous year. Does this House realise that for 15 years, every year while Fianna Fáil was in office the Book of Estimates showed a higher figure on the cover than in the previous year? After the record that I have read, in the first Book of Estimates presented to this House by the present Minister for Finance there is a lower figure by over £5,000,000 than was on the cover of the Book of Estimates 12 months ago.

This is the Minister that is presented to our people as a penny-pinching Scrooge who wants to deprive everybody of the least amenity, who is indifferent to the interests of the poor and the afflicted, and whose only concern is the cold, heartless materialism of high finance. That kind of character assassination is, I suppose, a feature of politics. It is an ugly feature of politics. If you cannot put a man down for what he is, it is a very inglorious expedient to discredit him for what you know he is not. If there is anybody on the benches opposite who has a remnant of honesty left in him after the 15 years' orgy through which the Party opposite has lived he ought to search that remnant of his conscience. It will not take long; he will not have much ground to cover. Let the Deputies opposite ask themselves how can they honestly face the people, who may not understand the details of State finance as the Deputies must understand it from their 15 years' experience, and deceive them with the suggestion that that record represents the record of a Minister who is indifferent to the feelings of the people for whom he stands trustee. I often wonder what is the mentality of people who find themselves in such desperate case that they no longer dare tell the truth because they know that their political destinies would be destroyed by that simple remedy. I often wonder what is the mentality of people who found their whole political existence on the success they hope will meet their efforts in presenting the people with a picture which they themselves know to be false. What is the state of mind of a man who knows he cannot survive if he does not succeed in deceiving the people upon whose backs he hopes to climb to power? I do not envy them.

Since this State was founded no Minister for Finance has held his office, as does the present Minister for Finance, with the courage and the genius—for genius it certainly is—so to administer the finances of this country as to retrieve the wreck that was wished upon him by his predecessors and who, at the end of the first year, is able to say to one colleague in any case—the Minister for Agriculture: "Means are now available to do for all the land of Ireland what was never done before." I am obliged to put on record here in this House that for the work of my Department, for the development of agriculture, for the restoration of prosperity to that industry, no facility that finance could provide has been withheld; and if we fall short of the highest hopes we have, the fault is mine, for every accommodation and facility for the development of increased production and the improvement of the land of this country has been vouchsafed by the present Minister for Finance. No one holding his office has ever done that before, and I hope that the brilliance of his achievement in finding himself in a position within the limits of conservative finance to make that provision now will not be frustrated by any shortcomings on my part, for I know that if the people are afforded the chance in the right way they will take advantage of it.

I want to say a word now about three specific matters. Deputy Dr. Ryan took the field yesterday and he was in a very "loughy" mood. I venture to swear that Deputy Lemass had not got his steely eye upon him when he grew so eloquent. Deputy Dr. Ryan very foolishly took Deputy Lemass's letter to the Sligo Champion as his brief and he proceeded to expound it here. But there is a great difference in writing a letter to the Sligo Cham-pion and making a speech in Dáil Éireann, because the Sligo Champion cannot answer back but the members of Dáil Éireann can. Deputy Dr. Ryan says that if Deputy Lemass had not bought the 50,000 tons of wheat in the Argentine we would all have lain down and died, skeletons to a man, and if Deputy Lemass's successors had to contribute and additional £1,250,000 to retrieve the bargain struck by Deputy Lemass the night before he went out of office we should be glad to make the payment and to be saved from death before our time. What are the facts? In December, 1947, the question of the purchase of wheat in the Argentine was submitted to the Government and the Government invested the Minister for Industry and Commerce at that time with discretion to do as he thought best. On the 16th day of February the Minister for Industry and Commerce, now Deputy Lemass, inquired of the British Ministry of Food did they include in their contemplated purchase of Argentine wheat 70,000 tons of wheat for the account of Ireland; and the British Minister of Food replied: “We are not buying Argentine wheat at all, and we advise you not to buy it. The price is too high and it can be bought cheaper, we believe, later on.” On that advice being received, the question of borrowing some wheat from Great Britain was considered by the Department of Industry and Commerce. No request was addressed to the British Ministry of Food and the Department of Industry and Commerce decided on its merits not to further examine that question.

The Department of Industry and Commerce then rang up its expert advisers, Grain Importers, Ltd., and said that they were inclined to the view that they ought to buy this Argentine wheat and the expert adviser, on the telephone, warned them not to buy the wheat. He said to them: "Here is a summary of the reasons why I advise you not to buy it. This is Monday, and there is in the post a letter from me giving you the full picture, which will reach you on Tuesday morning." That letter, which was then in the post, was dated 16th February. Nevertheless, the decision was taken on the 18th—that was Wednesday—to buy the wheat at 60 pesos, which meant £49 10s. 0d. c.i.f. Dublin. The price for the corresponding quality of Australian wheat was £36 c.i.f. Dublin, and the price for the corresponding quality of American wheat was £30 c.i.f. Dublin. Here is the advice given them, and it is on this advice that we in Dáil Éireann are told that we stood in imminent peril of starvation:

"The winter wheat crop in the United States of America is in excellent shape, and there has been very little, if any, winter kill and, therefore, it seems that we would be quite safe to rely upon getting most of our supplies from the United States of America for July, August and September at prices that compare very favourably with the Argentine. Taking all these factors into account, I am of the opinion that we should send a mission over to Washington fairly soon to discuss our problems with the United States Agriculture Department, and later on with the I.E.F.C. I feel sure that if we can get 50,000 tons of wheat from America for March-May shipment, we would be over our immediate difficulties and we could afford to sit back and cover the cost of our supplies later in the year."

Perhaps the Minister would give the reference for that quotation?

Yes Sir, but I have not finished the quotation yet.

"To sum up, as I understand it from the Cereals Imports people in London, there is plenty of wheat in the world. Britain is comfortable and I understood from them that the British Control in Germany had 11 weeks' stock and were more comfortable than they had ever been. All these factors point to me that if we went to Washington and put our case strongly to the United States Department of Agriculture and to the I.E.F.C., we are practically bound to get 50,000 tons of wheat and save ourselves an immense amount of money."

I am quoting from a letter addressed by Grain Importers Ltd., to the Department of Industry and Commerce on the 16th February, 1948.

That was delivered on the Monday?

Yes, and the contents of that letter were summed up on the telephone to the officers responsible in the Department on the morning of that date. That letter was put in the post on the 16th and the final purchase of the wheat was ordered by the Minister on the 18th February, 1948, which was the day before Dáil Éireann met to elect the present Taoiseach, John A. Costello. And I am told that if that purchase had not been made our people would have lain down to die! What is the point of having expert advisers whom you send to Washington, to Buenos Aires and the markets, on the ground that they are experts who know the market, if, after having gone to your consultants in these various centres and returned from the consultants with the advice which they summarise in the words: "To sum up as I understand it from the Cereals Import people in London there is plenty of wheat in the world"—you do not act on that advice? What are expert advisers for? What puzzles me is that when Deputy Lemass writes this letter to the Sligo Champion and makes a public fool of his own colleague, Deputy Ryan, he must know that that letter is on the file. I remember another occasion where he was haranguing the Minister for External Affairs and I heard Deputy Lemass working himself into a lather and denying that such a letter existed. I turned to the Minister for External Affairs then and asked him: “Does he know of the existence of that letter?” The Minister for External Affairs shrugged his shoulders and simply said: “Well, now he is engaged in denying it”. Immediately after that the Minister for External Affairs was able to show the letter. Did that knock a feather out of Deputy Lemass? Not at all. On another occasion Deputy Lemass was standing over there tearing passion to tatters to deny something similar, and again the evidence was on the desk in front of the Minister for External Affairs. Yet when he produced it, I did not notice Deputy Lemass as much as blink. Can more complete evidence be produced that the Minister for Industry and Commerce of the last Government was guilty of improvident folly in rejecting the advice of his expert advisers and leaving us to find £1,250,000 to pay for his folly out of the funds provided by this House?

The best of men can make a mistake. I would forgive Deputy Lemass if he has got up the first time this matter was raised and said: "Well now, I have made a mistake. I was desperately uneasy. I thought that these technicians of mine might take too offhand a view and in my excessive anxiety under the pressure of work I was doing I could but presume it was a mistake." We all make mistakes, and provided we do our best there is nothing to be ashamed of. What vexes me is the brazen-faced attempt to ram down the throats of our people that black is white and white is black, and the fantastic fact that poor Deputy Ryan can get up and walk up and down, like the Chinese Emperor, without a stitch of clothes on and say: "Look at the clothes," and the man stark naked for all to behold. Then I am landed with the disagreeable task of explaining to the multitude that the man has not got a stitch on. I merely wish that Deputy Lemass would not engage in that fruitless and idiotic mission of denying facts of which concrete evidence is available to his successors in his office to his own knowledge. I know he realises that we work harder than his colleagues did, but he should not reckon on the fact that we are too busy to look up a well-kept file of our Department. We do not have to look for the files. There are competent public servants to find them. All that is necessary is to turn the pages of it. He had better accept due notice now that any further attempt on his part to say that black is white or white is black will be taken as the occasion for drawing the appropriate file and referring to the appropriate documents in it to remind him that there was a day when he knew that black was black and white was white, even if he has forgotten it now.

There are two other things I want to mention. I am sorry Deputy Smith is momentarily absent. I understand that some members of the Fianna Fáil Party are greatly distressed by the agreement whereunder we have secured a guaranteed minimum price for eggs for the next two years of 2/6 a dozen. They grieve to think that the far-seeing hand of Deputy Smith is no longer on the tiller. I thought it might entertain them to know what the price would be for eggs if that resourceful hand was still upon the tiller. He left after him, too, the written record of the agreement he made in London in November, 1947. Mind you, he did the best he could in the circumstances obtaining at the time. He got a basic price from the British of 28/7 for the calendar year 1948 to 1949 to which was to be added a bonus of 5/- per long hundred so long as the total did not exceed £1,350,000. For the year 1950 a new price would be negotiated which would not be less than 20/- per long hundred delivered in London. You know what 20/- per hundred eggs means to the producer of eggs—about 1/6 a dozen. I want the House to note as clear as crystal that Deputy Smith's agreement said that the price of 28/7 was for 1948 and 1949 and so long as the £1,350,000 lasted they would get a 5/- bonus per long hundred in addition. However, in 1950 a new price would have to be negotiated and the only assurance we have for that year is that it will not be less than 20/- per long hundred which is about the equivalent of 1/6 a dozen to the producer.

What actually happened was that Deputy Smith believed and was advised that the £1,350,000 would probably last to give him a 5/- bonus on whatever basic price was agreed up to the end of 1950. It became abundantly clear to me last December that so great were our shipments of eggs to Great Britain becoming that the £1,350,000 would be consumed in August. We should probably drop 5/-a hundred to the end of the year and that at the end of this production year we should find ourselves with an extra surplus of 3,000,000 to 4,000,000 long hundreds trying to make a bargain with Great Britain, who by that time would conceivably have a surplus of eggs. I said: "Is it not wiser to take time by the forelock and, while we are both in more or less equality of position as to advantage, make a friendly deal?" I was not expecting that I should knock Mr. Williams or Mr. Strachey down, tie him up on the floor, write out the agreement and say: "Sign on the dotted line," but I was expecting that he would give a bit and I would give a bit. We would try and fix things up so that he would get the eggs and I would get the money. That is the kind of agreement to make. In due course, I was able to come over here and say that for every living hen in Ireland we know what she will get for every egg she lays for the complete duration of her economic life. When she had them laid you ought to choke her and sell her as a chicken. Next December I hope to be in a position to say to the women of the country: "Before you buy a single day-old chick I want to tell you the price for every egg that that hen will lay in the course of her natural life. If you do not like the price of eggs do not buy a hen. If you keep her longer than the two years, which is the economic life of a hen, on your own head be it. If you want to keep pensioned hens on the premises neither I nor any other Minister for Agriculture in the world can make a trade agreement to meet your requirements." I think that 2/6 a dozen to the producer, as a minimum price for two years, is the best bargain for eggs that our people ever got and the best bargain the British ever got, because they have at their backdoor a splendid supply of fresh eggs from producers who, hopping and trotting, can sell their eggs in the knowledge that they are not getting an extortionate price, because they are not fit to get it, but getting a fair price, so that buyer and seller feel they are getting what is fair and neither feels he is getting away with murder. If anybody knows of a better basis for a bargain, I should like to hear it.

There is another topic on which I should like to say a word. Some of my friends on the far side, when they read the trade agreement, got very much upset for fear that innocent child, the Minister for Agriculture, had been put upon and misled by the wily Saxon. Article 7 of the annexe to that trade agreement of 1948 sets out:—

"The Government of the United Kingdom undertake to arrange to pay prices for fat cattle imported from Ireland equivalent to those paid for store cattle bred in Ireland after a minimum of two months' fattening in the United Kingdom, subject to appropriate adjustment in respect of marketing costs. The seasonal schedule of prices will be drawn up in consultation between the two Governments."

Article 6 says:—

"The Government of the United Kingdom undertake that they will not introduce any excessive increase in the existing difference of 5/- per live cwt. between the prices paid by them for cattle bred in the United Kingdom and those paid for cattle from Ireland fattened for a minimum of two months in the United Kingdom."

Filled with anxious solicitude, Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party sped about the country lamenting that the Irish Government had been sold a pup and that when the time came they would get an eye-opener. The time has come. The British have increased the price of cattle by 4/6 per cwt. I am going to let cold shivers run up and down the backs of the Fianna Fáil Party over the week-end wondering what is going to happen to the schedule of prices for fat cattle from Ireland. Would it not be lovely if the 4/6 did not accrue to Irish cattle? Think of all the lovely speeches these Deputies could make, and will it not be awful if it does? I am going to let the Fianna Fáil Deputies twitter over the week-end until they see what happens, and, by what happens, I suggest they should permanently determine their evaluation of the trade agreement made in London last July.

Lastly, I am a great believer in letting facts speak for themselves. I suppose we can all agree that no one in this country keeps a sow pig in order to get the aesthetic satisfaction of admiring her contours. Therefore, if they keep sow pigs and their progeny, profit is probably their base motive. The most satisfactory method of determining how many sow pigs they are keeping, is to count the progeny they bring to market. On 19th February, 1949, these numbered 5,827 and on 19th February, 1947, 4,696; on 1st March, 1947, 2,732, and on the corresponding date in 1949, 5,929; on 8th March, 1947, 4,272, and on the corresponding date in 1949, 7,317; on 15th March, 1947, 5,692, and on the corresponding date in 1949, 7,215; on 22nd March, 1947, 5,846 and on the corresponding date in 1949, 6,221. For the 11 weeks ending 22nd March, 1947, the numbers were 56,651; for the 11 weeks ended the same date in 1948, 44,729; and for the 11 weeks ending the same date in 1949, 65,978. Butter and milk production, I believe, are on the verge of bankruptcy. Farmers flee at the sight of a cow. The production of butter to date is: In 1944, 17,354 cwts.; in 1945, 14,748 cwts; in 1946, 15,776 cwts.; in 1947, 9,935 cwts.; in 1948, 15,142 cwts.; and in 1949— prepare yourselves for a shock—22,347 cwts. and rising.

My heart bleeds for the members of the Fianna Fáil Party. What on earth they get to talk about at the crossroads is a mystery to me, but we cannot deny their valiance—a battered, ragged company, but hanging on like grim death; a credit to the toughest political school this country has ever known; hardened old ward-heelers in fair weather and foul; in office, glorying in the spoils, and, out of office, day dreaming and night dreaming of the prizes yet to come. One feels inclined to incorporate them in the popular song, "a credit to ‘ould' Ireland". But I suppose a reference to McNamara's Band would import disrespect and the Opposition in our Parliament is not an appropriate subject for disrespect from anybody. If the Opposition in our Parliament should ever be that the freedom of all of us would be injured. Sometimes one is strongly tempted to say things for effect which on reflection one would not wish to say. The Leader of the Opposition and the Deputies who constitute it are part of the State in action, part of the life and liberty of this country, and as such any denigration of them as a body is a denigration of all of us. Faithfully fulfilling the heavy assignment that is on them now to prove that black is white and white is black, I salute their ragged valiant company. I sympathise with their dire distress, but I reassure them that the benefits which our prudent Administration confers upon the country contain a share for them. They may have to sit there for many, many years contemplating what a good Government really is, but they are assured of full protection and of all the benefits we can bestow upon them during their long and lonely vigil. If they can ever succeed in fooling the people into voting for them again years and years from now, we give them the assurance that we will vacate these benches as gracefully and honourably as they did and take up the vigil that they so valiantly keep to-day.

One of the most noticeable features in this country is its state of peace and order. There is a feeling of relief and satisfaction right through the country that a Government other than the Fianna Fáil Government. is in office at the present time. During their period of office the Fianna Fáil Government had the support of a substantial element of the people who believed that they were responsible for peace and order, but it is abundantly clear from the speeches that have been made in this House by the ex-Minister for for Finance and the ex-Minister for Justice that if Fianna Fáil were to return to office in the country we would have a period of disorder. That has had a surprising effect right through the country. The exhibitions we have had here in this House recently, the provocative statements made by people who ought to know better after their long years of service as Ministers of State, have shown clearly that it is in the national interests that the present Opposition be kept in opposition. I want to make this point clear. There have been statements in this debate and statements through the country that there may be a general election in the very near future. Those statements are made for one purpose and one purpose only, in an endeavour to keep a political Party machine together. If my voice can be heard by the people, I want to declare from my own knowledge that there is not going to be any general election until this Parliament has run its proper course. I think if that position is clearly established and clearly understood, the efforts that are being made to keep alive one political Party will not succeed. This country does want peace. It does want order. It does not want to see any more military courts. It does not want to see any more internments or any more executions. It wants a period of peace and tranquillity so that we may make ordered progress. A very substantial element of the population, a very substantial body of the people, who thought that the last Government was the only Government that could maintain peace and order have had their eyes opened and they agree that if this period of peace and order is to be maintained the present Government must remain in office.

On occasion in this House I have had to differ from the Government, I have had to differ with individual Ministers, I have had to criticise them, and I will continue to exercise that right of mine in accordance with my conscience, but when I see one machined Party whose actions are not dictated by the call of conscience but directed towards the creation of confusion, then I feel that I must make it perfectly clear that as far as my vote can go during the lifetime of this Government it will not go towards putting that Government out of office.

We do not want it.

Whether you want it or not that is the position.

I had hoped, as a newcomer to this House, that I might be able to follow the example of people who had been 20 years or more in this House, but their actions here have horrified me as they have horrified a very big section of the community. The disorder which we have had in this House over the past few weeks has been no credit to any of us, and certainly no credit to the ex-Ministers of State who took a very active and prominent part in it. I thought we had got beyond this pettiness and that as a Parliament we would all endeavour to do what was right for the State irrespective of political advantage to ourselves, but when we find a vendetta against individual Ministers and the Government as a whole, when we find that that vendetta is carried on not only in the Parliament but through the columns of a newspaper for which at least two members of this House have a substantial responsibility, when I see the speeches of Deputies who are critical of Fianna Fáil eliminated from that newspaper, when I see questions that are asked by Independent and other Deputies kept out of that newspaper, I say that there is no honesty behind that behaviour. Newspapers who come here to report fairly and impartially the business and discussions in this House ought to do that. I certainly would not like to have the responsibility, if I had control of a newspaper, of using the censorship that is being used for the purpose of preventing statements that are made in this House by Deputies opposed to the Opposition being published. That is dishonesty.

I do not see how the action of newspapers who are not responsible to this House arises. If the Deputy mentions one newspaper, others may mention two or three other papers.

I am only mentioning one newspaper.

Some Deputies may mention others and we shall have a discussion, not on expenditure and administration, but on the daily Press.

I am associating this with the matter of political honesty.

I am not questioning what the Deputy is associating it with. I am just referring to the fact that it is not in order to have a debate on the daily papers on this Vote.

I am not endeavouring to raise a debate on the daily papers. I do say, however, that when newspapers come into this House to record the proceedings they should attempt to do it fairly and impartially. We have now an era of political peace. It was worth bringing about that era of political peace. The community as a whole is delighted that we have this political peace and for that the present Government are to be thanked.

Many matters have been mentioned in the course of the debate and I have no intention of going fully into the matters that have been raised. There are, however, very serious problems facing the Government—the problem of unemployment, the problem of emigration and the problem of land division. These are serious problems confronting the Government and there is the additional problem of the high cost of living. Each and every one of us in this House who has any sense of responsibility to his constituents must know that these problems are grave and that they require the continuous attention of the Government. While I, personally, am not satisfied that as much progress has been made in tackling these problems as might have been made, I do say that the creation of this spirit of concord will assist in the solution of these serious problems.

Deputy M. O'Reilly took the Chair.

I put it to the Government in this way. Land hunger is rife all through the country. There are large estates which can be broken up and divided. If we are to continue in the way in which things have been going for the past 25 years, that land hunger will not be satisfied in our time. Each and every one of us has made promises in regard to this matter and there are substantial areas of land that can be acquired and that ought to be acquired and divided right away. With the support which this Government have in this House, I think that any obstacles in the way of the acquisition and division of this land can be removed. No obstacle need be permitted to prevent the acquisition and division of land. Looking at it in a broad and general way, the Government have done reasonably well in their first year of office. But I would appeal to them in this, their second year of office, to become more energetic in regard to the problem of land acquisition and division.

We have been promised schemes of drainage from three different sources. There is to be drainage and reclamation of land. These schemes are going to benefit this country substantially. But, in order to have a happy and contented population, these ranches all over the country must be acquired and divided at once so that those new families which we want to see established in the rural areas will be able to benefit from the millions of money that are going to be expended on land rehabilitation by the Minister for Agriculture, the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Finance.

Unemployment is also a serious problem. There are roughly 80,000 people on the unemployment register to-day. That unemployment register must be corrected and people who are now on it and who are incapable of work must be provided for in some other way, so that the register will be a true reflex and show the true state of unemployment in the country. If the schemes mentioned by the Minister for Agriculture, the Minister for Local Government and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance are put into operation, undoubtedly there will be a solution of the unemployment problem in the rural areas. We have an unemployment problem here in the city, and it is most serious in so far as it affects boys of 18,19 and 20 years of age who cannot get work and whose parents are unable to find employment for them. I see no solution of that type of unemployment by the schemes that have been mentioned by the Ministers referred to. There will have to be more industrialisation; more industries must be started, as it is only in that way that a big number of young unemployed boys can find work in our cities.

The cost of living has been referred to, and is a serious problem as it is too high. It is too high because the margin between what the producer gets and what the consumer pays is entirely too high. I want to see a strict control of those profits in between the producer and the consumer, and if that strict control is brought about there can be a reduction in the cost of living. If that can be done at the same time as production can be increased, then the cost of living can be brought down, and it is only in that way that it can be brought down.

Naturally, emigration is a serious problem and has been a serious one for many years. It has been referred to right through every political campaign in this country by the Party that was in opposition at the time. I condemn emigration. It is no more tasteful to me now than it was when I was speaking on it on the hustings right through the country. This emigration problem can be solved if provision is made for the employment of our young people, if the land division I have referred to is taken in hands seriously and at once, and if efforts are made, as they can be made, towards the proper establishment of parish councils to brighten rural life. If we can do that, we can put a stop to emigration.

All these problems are there to be tackled. All these problems require the most serious consideration that each and every one of us can give to them. Every Deputy has a responsibility not only to his constituents but to his country to devote all his time and energy to assisting the Government to solve these problems. Instead of that, however, there is a Deputy who has been 16 years a Minister, who has filled the offices of Minister for Defence, Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures and the very responsible position of Minister for Finance and we find him in this House play-acting about K.C.s and S.C.s. That sort of play-acting is not going to solve these serious problems that confront the Government. As I said at the beginning and repeat now in concluding, there are many matters upon which I disagree with the present Government. I disagree with them because I think they are not putting sufficient energy into the task that confronts them, but I do say that there is no comparison between them as a Government and the Government they have replaced. We have now a Government that is making some effort; we have a Government that we can talk to; we can speak to the individual members of that Government; we can put forward our problems and our recommendations to them and we know they will be considered. We are not now living under a tyranny; we are not now living under a Government that keeps itself entirely apart from the ordinary people of the country.

I say that the Opposition must change its tactics. For the first 12 months, the Leaders of the Opposition thought that this inter-Party Government could not last, that it was a joke, that they could rest on their benches there for a few months and it would break up. And what did they do? Front bench member after front bench member attacked every Party forming this inter-Party Government, and drove them into one solid wedge in which there is one determination, and that determination is to keep Fianna Fáil in opposition. Having seen the failure of those attempts over a period of 12 months, having seen that electoral support is slipping from them right over the country, now those members of the Opposition might change their tactics and co-operate with the rest of us in driving the Government faster on the road to the solution of these problems. I am quite sure that any sensible suggestion that would come from any side of this House would be welcomed by the Government and by the Minister concerned. In this particular debate, which gives us an opportunity of rambling somewhat, I would say to the Opposition that, having seen the abject failure of their tactics in the past 12 months, they should change those tactics now, and endeavour for the future to contribute their abilities and their energy in the interests of the people and not in the interests of a political Party.

Listening to Deputy Seán Collins here yesterday, it struck me that the inter-Party Government, along with taking over Deputy James Dillon, had taken over a couple of old sayings of Deputy Dillon's past. "The day is not far distant when again there will be seen, the green flag of old Ireland waving over College Green." The day is not far distant when every fellow is told, if ever they want anything, that all the schemes are there. All coming, but they never arrive. I am sure every Deputy will admit that our main industry is agriculture and if that goes down, where are we then? I want to know what the policy of the Government is. What is the policy? I have here an advertisement which was published in the public Press nearly this day 12 months ago—20th March, 1948, which gives advice to farmers. It reads as follows:—

"A great many farmers have been inquiring as to whether there is anything various individuals can do to help the Government. The answer is ‘Yes'. Every tillage farmer in Ireland will carefully complete his compulsory tillage quota, sow from one to five extra acres of barley or oats and he will help the Government. Let us show them. James M. Dillon."

To follow that we had another one—"Grow more potatoes." As a result of those two documents the farmers of this country last year grew 83,000 acres less of wheat which, on the figures given by the Minister in reply to a Parliamentary Question which I put last week, meant over 83,000 tons of wheat lost to this nation and purchased in dollars at over £3,000,000, thus depriving our farmers of £2,075,000. Instead of growing wheat, the farmers followed the Minister's advice and they grew oats and potatoes. Anyone who walks along a country road at present, or who walks anywhere near a farmyard will be kicking fat rats out of his way— rats fattened on the oats and potatoes grown by the farmers at the Minister's bidding. Having done that, the Minister says: "I ask you to do all you can to increase the area under barley, oats and potatoes. For each of these three commodities there will be a certain and profitable market next year. The more oats the farmer grows, the greater the service to the nation. If any farmer finds himself with a surplus, and communicates with the Department of Agriculture, arrangements will be made to put him in contact at once with a purchaser who will take his surplus at a satisfactory price." That is the promise given by the Minister for Agriculture to the farmers of this country under which they grew 80,000 acres of oats, and dropped 80,000 acres of wheat. What has been the result? Where was the market to walk it off the land? It is walking off now with fat rats. The Minister, when he was Deputy Dillon, speaking in this House on the 18th June, 1947, column 2040, said:

"... because I practised that when the time of the emergency came I was able to grow more wheat per acre on my land than any of the pirates who had been mining their own land with wheat during the previous ten years?"

We were told all about the deterioration and all about the infertility of the soil and the worn-out land. They are very catch phrases, but what was the result in regard to wheat? In the year 1946, 2,524,000 barrels; 1947, 1,463,000 barrels; 1948, on 83,000 acres less, 2,463,000 barrels of wheat. They grew 83,000 acres less of wheat and yet there were 1,000,000 barrels more out of the infertile, worn-out land of this country that had been mined, according to the Minister for Agriculture, and that had all the good taken out of it in crops of wheat. In that speech the Minister further declared:—

".... I want to say again, with emphasis, that once wheat from abroad is available to this country again, I would not be seen dead in a field of wheat on my land in this country, because I know that that whole rotten fraud, in fact, was invoked to permit the Rank interests and the other milling interests in this country to charge our people 30/- a cwt. for flour when they were selling it in Liverpool for 19/-. I will not have to worry because the wheat scheme is as dead as a door nail."

Lo and behold, Sir, after listening to that I got a copy of a paper that the Minister should be very fond of—it walked him up the garden path in regard to the lime—the Connaught Tribune. In this paper I find that the Minister's advice for this year—the advice of the man who would not be seen dead in a field of wheat on his land in this country, the advice of the man who talks about the “rotten fraud”—is as follows:—

"The farmers who want a cash crop should sow wheat or malting barley There is an unlimited market for wheat at 62/6 a barrel for top quality."

I have read down this advertisement and I do not see a word about the oats and the potatoes. This Minister, who told us all about the "rotten fraud" and who said that he would not have to worry because the wheat scheme was "as dead as a door nail," comes out on the 19th of March, 1949, and asks the farmers to grow wheat. So much for that. This Minister, who deprived the farmers of this country last harvest —owing to his advice which I have just now read out—of £2,075,000 for wheat and who used the scarce dollars that this country needs to purchase essentials and paid £3,100,000 worth of them for the wheat that he had prevented our Irish farmers from growing, comes along this year and says: "Grow wheat." What is the policy? That is what we want to know. Has he some other means by which those unfortunate farmers whom he fleeced and skinned last year will be led up the garden path again this year, even with regard to wheat? That is something that the agricultural community want to know as soon as possible.

I am sure every representative of a rural constituency in this House will admit that the dairying industry is the basis, the foundation, of our agriculture. I have here the saga of milk. This was the Minister's view on a maximum price for milk on November 1st, 1948:—

"I have not the slightest intention of asking the Government to increase the price of milk beyond 1/2 in summer and 1/4 in winter,"

said the Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Dillon, when officially opening a cheese processing factory in the Golden Vale.

On the 29th November, Deputy Halliden mustered the farmers in Cork and told them "We are going to bring this Minister to heel."

"It had been decided that if Mr. Dillon, Minister for Agriculture, remained obdurate against increasing the price of milk they would approach the Taoiseach and the Government on the matter,"

said Mr. P.H. Halliden, T.D., at a meeting of the Cork Farmers' Association when a motion was proposed demanding a remunerative price for milk.

On the 1st November James said: "No price."

Acting-Chairman

The Minister.

On the 29th November Deputy Halliden said: "I will get after him." The next phase in the game was that the Minister decided that the farmers would have a happy Christmas. Whatever was going to happen in that season of peace and goodwill, those farmers were going to be happy, for that day, anyhow.

So they were.

Sure, and this appeared in the Irish Independent of 24th December:—

"He has been greatly impressed by the case made by the deputation, said Mr. Dillon, Minister for Agriculture, when representatives of the Munster dairy industry waited on him to seek an increase in the price of milk delivered to the creamery. Though he had stated that he would not increase the present price of milk, added Mr. Dillon, he would now, having regard to the case made by the deputation, reopen the whole question. He was sure that any recommendations he made would be favourably considered by the Government."

So they had a happy Christmas on the word of the Minister for Agriculture that the whole thing would be fixed up and reconsidered. I do not know whether Deputy Halliden in the meantime had seen the Taoiseach or whether he had enlisted the Minister for External Affairs to give him a hand out. Anyway, James was going to reconsider it.

Acting-Chairman

The Minister for Agriculture.

The Minister for Culture. Next comes the Irish Press of Thursday, February 17th:—

"The Fine Gael Ard-Fheis.

Milk Producers Attack Mr. Dillon.

A resolution was passed calling on the Government to take immediate steps to render the necessary aid to prevent the dairy industry from falling into complete decay. If the Minister for Agriculture had come from the ranks of the Party they would then have an opportunity, at least once a year, at the Ard-Fheis, of pressing on him what they wanted. Mr. Dillon was a very clever man, but he had met them as milk producers very unfairly."

—I do not see Deputy Madden here. I would love to see him now:—

"Deputy Madden said that the success or failure of the Government hinged on the success or failure of the dairy industry. It was in a dangerous position and should be protected. He earnestly appealed to the Minister to recognise the importance of an increase in the price of milk."

That was the 17th February. Then we come to the 3rd March and, lo and behold, there was a whole donkey load of questions put down. All the boys were acting on the tip that was given —a dead cert.—that the Minister was reconsidering the price, that all the boys had pressed him and that he was going to give it. Each wanted to be in first with the question, so that he could say: "It was I who got it". This appeared in the Press:—

"In a reply to Deputies P. Burke, Fianna Fáil, and P. Halliden, Clann na Talmhan, the Minister said that he did not at present propose to advise the Government to increase the price of milk, at Question Time in the Dáil yesterday."

That is how it stands. Then we come to his interview with the farmers of Limerick on Saturday last—700 of them, headed by a staunch old Blue Shirt, turned out and heckled the one and only Minister for Agriculture this world ever knew.

And he is alive still.

He is, to your sorrow. Seven hundred of them came out, with banners, asking for a fair price for milk and they belong to that tribe that the Minister for Agriculture took to his bosom the young farmers.

It is over 12 months since the Minister for Agriculture received costings prepared by Professor Murphy, of University College, Cork, in regard to the production of milk. Since then costs of production have increased. The price of milk remains the same. As a matter of fact, my deluded comrade, Deputy Lehane, here yesterday said that the farmer was getting less for his oats, flax, potatoes and poultry and was not allowed an increase for his milk since 1947. Of course, Deputy Lehane can change it whatever day he likes. Deputy Lehane is not going to get out of his responsibility for keeping James Dillon as Minister for Agriculture and he need not think he will.

That is the position, Sir. The Minister and his Department have those figures showing the costs of production of milk. We heard the shouts here from the Minister some time ago about the increase in the number of milch cows. According to the paper the other day, the milch cows are down by some 23,000. There are in the country 44,000 in-calf heifers, and the question as to whether they will go over to John Bull to provide milk for Britain or will be kept to supply our Irish people with milk depends on some definite decision from that Government as to what the price of milk will be. That is what it depends on. That is the situation as far as the milk side of our basic industry is concerned. There can be no burking that fact. He was in great form that day. Here is another statement—I am quoting from column 2042, Volume 29 of the Official Debates for the 18th June, 1947—that he made:—

"I am convinced that beet will go up the spout after peat and wheat. God speed that day."

That, mind you, is what the Minister for Agriculture in this country has said. Deputy Cowan, a short time ago, was talking about our industries, but that is what the Minister for Agriculture says about this industry, an industry based on the produce of Irish soil and on what the Irish farmer produces, an industry that keeps four factories going, and one that supplied the Irish people with sugar, an essential commodity, right through the emergency. He is the man, the individual, that the people over there put into the responsible position of being in charge of the agricultural industry. That statement represents his attitude towards beet. That is a lovely thing from a lovely Minister. I wondered how he was going to bring it about.

It so happens that I have been chairman of the Beet Growers' Association for the past few years. My job as such is to conduct negotiations with the Irish Sugar Company. In November, 1946, we put our position before the company. Due to the increased cost of production in that year, we got an increase in the price of beet of 10/- per ton. That increase, by the way, was due to increased freightage charges and to increased costs of labour. For the 1948/49 crop we got an increase of 9/8 per ton, due to the same causes. Last November, we went to the sugar company with a demand, based on their figures, for a further increase of 9/6. We were told that there was no money to meet it, and that, in carrying out this policy for the Minister for Agriculture, the Minister for Industry and Commerce had raided the coffers.

I was wondering how he managed it and I put down some questions. I raised the matter on the Adjournment. The last figure that I gave of 9/8 per ton for the 1948-49 crop was met in a certain manner. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, in June, 1947, fixed the price of sugar for manufacturers at 7½d. per lb. That left 1d. and a fraction over the economic cost of producing sugar—12/10 per cwt. Out of that money the price was increased in November, 1947, by 9/8 per ton. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, in reply to my question, told me that "88/- on the present percentage basis is not a bad price." That was on the 15th December last. He also told me that he had collected from the sugar company, out of the sugar made available for jam and for harvest workers, the sum of £144,000. I wondered where they got the dough to carry on, but Deputies will not be long in finding out. I put down another question for answer on the 22nd March when I got this reply:—

"From the proceeds of the sale of sugar for manufacturing purposes, including allowances for home jam making and harvest workers, in the period of 12 months ended 31st December, 1948, £387,176 was received in relief of the subsidy payable on sugar for domestic consumption."

That sum of £387,176 would mean, roughly, about 15/- per ton on beet. The Minister for Industry and Commerce was carrying out the policy of the Minister for Agriculture who said that the beet factories "were going up the spout and God speed that day" and took that money.

I thought they were white elephants at one time.

Will the calf shut up? He must be getting some of Dillon's milk. There is this fact to be faced that you have reduced the acreage under beet for all four factories this year. That means reduced employment on the land and will mean reduced employment in the factories. That, of course, does not bother Deputy O'Leary, but these are the facts. The Minister had no authority from this House—only the authority of a Bashi Bazouk outside who would raid the treasury—to extract that money from the sugar company, money that should go to pay the farmer the costs of his production of beet, plus a fair profit for himself. That is his attitude, and that is the policy towards the farming community.

The next excursion I would like to take the House on is an excursion in connection with barley. You all know of the attitude adopted by this Minister for Culture in relation to barley. I want firmly to register a protest against what seems to be a cruel inequity, fixing a price for malting barley ranging from 35/- to 45/-, less carriage from the farm to the maltster, when the world price was 60/- and over and when the brewers were ready and willing to pay 60/- and over. They are prevented from doing so by our Government, with the consequence that in the last five years the barley growers here were fined by our Government £2,000,000 sterling, which passed into the coffers of Messrs. Arthur Guinness, Son and Co., and was then extracted by the British Treasury in the form of excess profits tax which was collected in Britain. The Minister went further. On the 14th July, 1948 (column 295), he interrupted Deputy Maguire and he said:—

"I do not blame the Deputy. The last Government made the brewers pay our farmers 15/- to 20/- per barrel less than the brewers wanted to pay them. I am now going to allow the brewers to pay the barley growers what they have always wanted to pay."

I want to make that very clear.

Immediately after that statement by the Minister I put down a question asking him when was he prepared to decontrol barley. The Minister was not present to answer the question, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach asked me to postpone it until the following week. In the meantime, I got in touch with Messrs. Guinness. They said to me: "That is nonsense; we have a letter from the Minister telling us he will control barley, and that the control price will be 45/- a barrel." I wonder will the Minister, when he produces the next bundle of letters, take that off the file and have a look at it. I said: "Nonsense, he has told us in the Dáil that you have robbed us of £2,000,000 and he will decontrol barley."

They asked me to come over. I went over and I saw the directors of Messrs. Guinness, and I produced for them this document where the Minister for Agriculture said the farmers had been robbed of £2,000,000. They immediately began to ask for terms, and I said that I could not talk terms with them. They produced their letter and I produced the Minister's statement in which he told us: "I am now going to allow the brewers to pay the barley growers what they have always wanted to pay, but the last Government would not let them." I said I would like a meeting with Messrs. Guinness's directors as soon as possible on behalf of the beet growers. On the following Wednesday, when I opened the paper, I found my question answered, but it was not answered here—this Dáil was only a secondary consideration. It was answered in Laoighis by the Minister when he said that the price of barley would be 50/- a barrel. I knocked 5/- out of him, anyway.

I met Messrs. Guinness two days afterwards with my colleagues from the Beet Growers' Association. We put up our price to Messrs. Guinness for the coming year and after discussion we made a bargain and fixed a price of 57/6 for the barley. I had in mind what was happening to the farmers in regard to oats. I said: "I am not going to walk into the same trap." We fixed that price under contract for every barrel of barley needed by Messrs. Guinness. We did more than that. I heard a lot of talk here about so much less than the English farmer would get. Our bargain with Messrs. Guinness was 57/6, not less than 2/6 a barrel more than the price of English malting barley. That is the way to make a bargain. That bargain holds not alone for this year, but for next year and the year after until we are rid of our Minister for Agriculture.

The following morning I had a telephone message from the Minister. I appealed to him and said: "Your only objection to decontrolling barley is that the price would be so high that everybody would grow it next year. I have got rid of that danger for you by fixing the price under contract. The unfortunate farmers had a raw deal in regard to oats and they had a bad market for their potatoes and a bad price. Here is something you can give them. It will not cost you anything and it will not cost Messrs. Guinness anything, for, according to your own words, it went through the coffers of Messrs. Guiness and into the British Treasury. Withdraw the control now and let the agreed price hold for this season.""Oh", he said, "the farmers are very well off; I gave them 5/- a barrel more." That was the attitude of this Minister for Agriculture. The price of malting barley in Britain last harvest was 60/- a barrel. That meant 62/6 for every man who sold barley last harvest instead of the 50/- fixed by the Minister for Agriculture. Twelve and sixpence a barrel meant over £1,000,000 in the quantity of barley sold to the maltsters. That was £1,000,000 transferred from the farmers' pockets in this country through Messrs. Arthur Guinness into the coffers of the British Treasury, to use the Minister's own words. That is the man that this Government presents to the farmers of this country as their Minister for Agriculture. Each one of you has a responsibility. The 700 farmers will be joined by a few thousand more. They will move out of Limerick and come a little nearer to Dublin. Those are three crops, plus milk. That is and has been the attitude of this Government in its collective responsibility in regard to the farming community. These are the things in which we are supposed to have increased production. I do not know what the position will be in the future. I do not know what the farming community will have to face or through what period they will have to pass before they get rid of this "old man of the sea" who has been pushed upon their backs and who is a model of incompetence. That is the does the farmers have had to swallow.

Deputy Lehane, speaking in this House yesterday, told us that the farmer was getting less for his oats, flax, potatoes and poultry than he got last year. He also told us the farmer has got no increase in his milk since 1937.

This is repetition. We had this exact quotation from the Deputy before.

I admit that.

Surely he is quite entitled to repeat what the Deputy said.

I am quoting Deputy Lehane for the purpose of asking him whose responsibility it is that the farmer, with increased costs over the past 12 months, has got less for his crops. Whose responsibility is it? On the day that Deputy Lehane and Deputy Halliden and the rest of the Deputies there say: "Get rid of that Minister," that Minister must go. They know that. For political reasons I would be sorry to see him go. He is worth seven seats to us over here. But I have a certain regard for my constituents and for that part of the agricultural community that I represent. The few fools who voted for Clann na Talmhan in the last election have learned their lesson now. It is about time the load was taken off their unfortunate shoulders.

The next matter with which I want to deal is the problem of emigration. My dearly beloved friend, Deputy Keane, speaking here yesterday told us that the people were not emigrating through force of circumstances but because they were, by tradition, wild geese seeking to better themselves. It reminds me of the occasion when a previous Government told us that those who were emigrating were going to see their children in America. Like wild geese now they are flying. I want to get a true picture of the condition of affairs that has been created in this country over the past 12 months by the full employment programme of the Parties on the Government Benches. I want to paint the picture as it appears in my own constituency.

I put a little question to the Minister for Industry and Commerce and in that question I asked him if he would be kind enough to give me the number of unemployed registered in each of the months March to December, 1947, and 1948, respectively, and January and February of 1948 and 1949. I wanted to get the full 12 months to see how employment stood in that little bit of Ireland that I represent. I asked for particulars in each of the exchanges at Midleton, Youghal, Cobh and Fermoy. The result was a tabular statement and that statement shows that in each of those towns in my constituency the number of unemployed registered at the exchanges has increased in all four. The increase in unemployment was never more marked than in the months of January and February, 1949, as compared with January and February, 1948.

I have given you the prices that the farmers got. I have painted the picture. I will now tell the empty Labour benches what Labour got, besides the two little jobs, as their price. It is increased unemployment in each of the four areas in my constituency. In Cobh the dockyard is practically closed. As against 297 persons employed there in February, 1948, there were 37 persons employed there last week. That is one of the results of the inter-Party Government. Plans had been prepared for an expansion in the steel works, an expansion which would have meant employment for at least 300 more men. That plan has been, as is so often euphemistically stated, put in abeyance. All the plant that was to provide increased employment and to save the dollars that would have to be sent abroad for iron and steel is in abeyance and will remain in abeyance until Fianna Fáil comes back.

That will be a long time.

As a Labour Deputy, I am sure you are glad.

I am delighted.

You look delighted. I am sorry I could not give you a ticket for Wexford, where you could take a walk round Messrs. Pierce's works and have a look for yourself. You would then see the number of unemployed there, that is, if they have not all joined Deputy Keane's wild geese.

I now come to the town of my colleague and friend over there, Deputy O'Gorman, the town of Youghal. Unemployment in Youghal is on the increase, apart from the number of wild geese that have gone. I am sure that Deputy O'Gorman, as an honest man, will not deny that unemployment in Youghal is on the increase. In connection with the position in Youghal, I should like to quote something to this House. I have two documents here. One contains a refusal of petrol by the Minister for Industry and Commerce on 6th November, 1948, to the beet growers to draw waste factory lime out of the factory. He said he had not the petrol. I have also a copy of the Irish Times of December 12th, 1948, a month afterwards, which says: “From to-morrow the commercial travellers' petrol ration will be increased to 30 gallons for cars of less than 10 h.p.; to 36 gallons for cars of 10 to 16 h.p.; and to 50 gallons for cars of 16 h.p.; and over.” The result of giving that increased petrol ration to commercial travellers, engaged in dumping English shoddy around our shops, was that poor William Dwyer had to close down the Youghal factory. Petrol would not be given to the farmers to draw out lime but it was given to the commercial travellers to travel round the country, and even try to get Deputy O'Gorman's shop to buy some fully fashioned hose.

The Deputy might leave personalities out of it.

Deputy Corry is descending to a level I never experienced in my whole career. I think it is despicable to mention the matters he has mentioned. The Deputy should be ashamed of himself, but he is impervious to shame.

If there is anything personal in what I have said about Deputy O'Gorman's shop I regret it, but I have no apology to make to Deputy O'Gorman or to anybody else in this House for my defence here of my charges. The Deputy must admit that 250 workers were thrown on the roadside out of that factory and were kept out for six weeks.

Who brought them back? Not you.

They were brought back when this Government knuckled down and gave Mr. Dwyer the protection he had demanded.

He did not even make that case.

When this Government knuckled down and stopped the English shoddy, to assist in the importation of which a special petrol allowance was given to commercial travellers—that is why they were brought back.

May I respectfully suggest that the flood gates were opened to English shoddy, not when this Government came into office, but by the previous Minister for Industry and Commerce, who flooded this country with the stuff? I may put that suggestion——

Who is speaking?

Deputy McGrath at the moment.

I have not the slightest objection to Deputy O'Gorman coming in on this.

That is for the Chair to decide, not for Deputy Corry.

He is tired, trying to think of some other lie.

Evidently it is so true that it is getting under the hide. The factories that were established to give employment to the people in my constituency will be protected and defended by me whilst I am here. We put them there and we are going to keep them there. The town of Fermoy suffers in the same manner from increased unemployment. In connection with the question of unemployment, I was rather anxious to know what the conditions were in other constituencies besides my own. I quote, Sir, from the Irish Press of Monday, November 29th, 1948:

"‘In all his experience there was never more widespread unemployment than now existed in County Limerick,' said Mr. D. J. Madden, T.D., at a meeting of the Limerick County Council, when he proposed that the Minister be asked for a grant of £100,000 towards a comprehensive scheme for road work."

Did you read the next day's Press?

You can read it. You have more time.

There was a letter of contradiction in that. Do you not know that that was contradicted?

I am sorry that Deputy Madden is not here now. That is the statement made by Deputy Madden.

The Deputy contradicted the report the next day.

It was not a statement made by any foolish Fianna Fáil T.D. If it were, it would be described as malicious political propaganda and sabotage.

That is Deputy Madden's statement—that there was never in all his experience more widespread unemployment than existed in the County Limerick at present. This is the full employment for all. This is the manner in which the Government are doing their job. This is their 13th month in office—an unlucky number—and this is the way the job has been done so far as the full employment of our people is to be implemented. In order to add to that picture there is only one thing wanted. That is the picture of the workers unemployed because of a £2,000,000 odd reduction in road grants this year. That is all you need add to this picture of more widespread unemployment and it is evidently the Government's reply to the appeal of poor Deputy Madden for £100,000 extra for road work—a £2,000,000 odd reduction.

The Deputy should not repeat himself.

That picture means ten weeks' extra unemployment for every road worker in Cork County unless they follow Deputy Keane's wild geese. That is the condition of affairs that this Government has brought about. Those are the conditions under which increased production is being looked for and under which there is a reduction of the beet acreage for the factories this year. They are carrying out the famous statement made by our Minister for Agriculture "that beet will go up the spout after peat and wheat. God speed that day."

I submit that that is the third occasion upon which the Deputy has said that.

I had the pleasure of hearing him say it only once.

On this occasion.

Yes, on this occasion.

I am not surprised at this condition of affairs, seeing that the ruling of this country has been handed over body and bones to the legal fraternity. Thinking of the conditions under which our people have to face the next 12 months is it any wonder that we are worried and troubled and that we keep thinking of——

The good old days.

——the various schemes around the country. I will conclude with the same subject with which I started.

Yes, if you want the lime you will get it. You may get more than you want. There is a lot of whitewashing to do in order to white-wash all the jobs that have been done over there.

Has the Deputy any more to say on the Vote?

The day is not far distant when the Minister for Agriculture and his Party will come along and tell the road workers of the country in eight counties that they are going to be put digging drains for the farmers and that in the rest of the counties they are going to be put out of work. No wonder the road workers of this country are trying to get out of it by joining Deputy Keane's wild geese.

Mheasas riamh gurbh é an nós sa díospóireacht seo ar an Vóta ar Cuntas cur síos ar chúrsaí caiteachais agus riaracháin ach go dtí seo tá mórán nithe ná baineann leis na cúrsaí sin á bplé. Chítear domhsa go bhfuiltear ag dul ar seachrán ón abhar ach níl rún agamsa an droch nós sin a leanúint. Sinne i gClann na Poblachta, cé nach bhfuilimid sásta ar fad, caithfimid admháil gur fearrde an tír an t-áthrú Rialtais a tharla blian ó shoin, agus cé nach bhfuilimid sásta ar fad leo, go gclaoifimid leo go fóill. Ba mhaith linn cur in iúl dóibh go háirithe gurb é ár dtuairim gurab é dualgas an Rialtais— agus ná bíodh aon bhreall orthu mar gheall ar seo—obair a sholáthar dóibh siúd atá díomhaoin, atá gan obair, agus deire a chur le díomhaointeas agus leis an imirce.

In my approach to this Vote on Account I was of the opinion that it was an occasion for Deputies on both sides of the House to exercise their critical faculties to examine the manner in which public money had been expended by the Government during the past 12 months, and, in the light of that experience, to decide whether they were prepared to vote the amount of money the Government asked for here. In my innocence and ingenuousness, I thought that was the manner and the spirit in which this Vote would be approached. I have heard most of the speeches in this debate, and, with the exception of the speech made by Deputy Cowan, there was no speech into which there was not introduced a note of either adulation for adulation's sake or criticism for criticism's sake. I do not conceive it to be the function of Deputies on this side who normally support the Government to put to one side their critical faculties and to approach this matter with the attitude that anything done by the Government must be done well. Neither do I conceive it to be the duty of Deputies on the Opposition benches to adopt an attitude of carping, cavilling criticism for criticism's sake.

Deputy Aiken and other Deputies on numerous occasions have charged against the smaller Parties who form part of this Coalition that they have been as mute as mice. The Deputies know that there is not a scintilla of truth in that charge, but lest there is anybody under any misapprehension as to the attitude of our Party on the matter, let me make it perfectly plain that we have not been as mute as mice, nor do we intend to be as mute as mice. Criticism was made, gibes were hurled and taunts were delivered by Deputy Corry about our policy of full employment. Let me assure Deputy Corry and his colleagues in the Fianna Fáil Party that, in so far as Clann na Poblachta is concerned, the policy of full employment still represents the policy of that Party.

We know, as reasonable, sane, sensible beings who are not giving lipservice to the policy of full employment but taking the most practical steps to see that it will be put into effect, that one of the first essentials was to get rid of the Fianna Fáil Government. That was the first necessary preliminary step. All the Parties in this Coalition Government have had to compromise on portions of their policy. It is inherent in the ideal of a coalition that there should be compromise on minor matters, and let me make a present of that to Deputy Corry and his colleagues who think we will be affected by gibes or taunts or sneers of that nature. The very essence of a number of Parties coming together is that they must place major stress upon the points upon which they are agreed and agree to leave to one side the points upon which there is not complete harmony of feeling.

We in Clann na Poblachta know very well that this is not a Clann na Poblachta Government. It is not pursuing the complete policy which we in Clann na Poblachta would like to pursue, but we do believe that it is the best Government that can be got in the circumstances, and if there are any Deputies on the opposite benches sanguine or foolish enough to believe that gibes or taunts or sneers from them will alter our attitude in supporting this Government, let me immediately disillusion them, once and for all, and tell them that they are wasting their time.

We know that well.

When this Government came into office, it faced certain major problems—unemployment, emigration, a rising cost of living, bad housing and inadequate social services. Every one of these problems still confronts us. I am not going to attempt to make a case based on false promises —every one of these problems still confronts us, but certain palliative measures have been taken. The rising spiral in the cost of living figure, which, from 1939, has consistently risen, has been halted. That figure is still abnormally high. We have not succeeded—let me anticipate the taunts —in reducing the cost of living by 30 per cent., but this Government have done what was not even attempted in the last ten years—they have halted the rise in the cost of living. Secondly, there has been a sincere, vigorous and energetic drive to alleviate the awful housing conditions in which some of our people live, and I should like—I have done it in the House before and I am glad to do it again—to pay a special tribute to the sincerity and singleness of purpose with which the Minister for Local Government has pursued his objective of giving the people decent housing conditions.

In all the tirade we heard from Deputy Corry, in all the gloomy picture painted for us, we did not hear one word about the vast improvement made in the social services which have been made available to those sections of our people most in need of them, the sections who have the greatest call on the sympathy and assistance of this legislature. The burden of taxation, which had risen to astronomical heights during the period of office of the previous Government, has been reduced, and finally, our Minister for Health has made a start, and a very successful start, in providing decent health services for our people. West of the Shannon, 13 months ago, there was a long waiting list of sick people, of people suffering from the dread scourge of tuberculosis. The position now is that, west of the Shannon, there is not as much as one tuberculosis patient waiting for a hospital bed, and, if this Government had done nothing but that, I think it would be a marvellous achievement.

Admittedly these are only palliatives, and while I extol the Government for what it has done, my criticism is that what has been done has only been done by way of a palliative. We believe that the axe should be put to the root. We believe that while unemployment and emigration still assume the proportions they assume now our continued existence as a nation is threatened. Emigration is largely the result of unemployment and I would not like to be taken for one moment as adopting the suggestion—if it was made here yesterday, I did not hear it —that people emigrate because of some wild geese strain in them. I believe that people emigrate because they are forced by economic circumstances to emigrate and I do not believe that any useful purpose can be served by blinking our eyes to the fact that emigration is a by-product of unemployment. We have a chronic unemployment problem here, and that problem is the result of under-investment. Labour, land and capital produce wealth and create prosperity. In this country for generations we have pursued a policy—and it has continued for the last 12 months, unfortunately—of allowing out capital to be exported and our labour to follow. Nothing that has been done during the last 12 months has altered that position. Nothing that has been done during the last 12 months has altered that awful, insane economic pattern we know in our national life. We are probably the only country in the world which exports both labour and capital. Certainly no other country of our size has an unemployment problem comparable to ours, taking into account our natural resources. Unless we can overcome the position whereby chronic under-investment causes unemployment and emigration, then our very existence as a nation is threatened. In the first place every additional man who becomes unemployed becomes a charge on the State, and the fact that he is unemployed reduced the national income. He no longer contributes revenue to the Exchequer and he creates, himself and those dependent upon him, a social problem which inevitably requires the attention of the Administration and of the legislature.

I make no apology for stressing these facts and I make no apology for criticising the present Administration for having allowed this pattern of under-investment, under-development, unemployment and emigration to continue, but let neither Deputy Corry nor any other Deputy in this House lay it at the door of the present Administration as something which only commenced on the 18th February of last year. That type of completely dishonest and insincere criticism does not help in the solution of the problem. It does not help in commanding for the deliberations of this House outside its precincts any greater respect than it has at the moment. Emigration and unemployment are twin evils. We have had them with us for a long, long time, and let nobody be dishonest enough, insincere enough or cynical enough to try to capitalise on the sufferings of those who are forced to emigrate by trying to lay them at the door of a Government which has been in office for only 13 months.

I would appeal, however, to the Government and urge upon them that the sooner they realise that the ending of unemployment is their major problem the better for the Government and for the country. The sooner the Government realise that the people who elected them, the people who elected every Deputy in this House, the people we are supposed to represent, expect the Government to take it upon itself as a duty so to utilise the resources of our country that none of its children shall be compelled to remain in idleness or forced to emigrate in search of work, the better. Every additional boy or girl who is forced to leave the country means a loss to the country of what has hitherto been spent on that boy or girl. In the case of a boy or girl of, say, 18 years that has been estimated as somewhere between £1,000 and £1,200. Every emigrant reduces the national income to the extent his labour could have added to it. Every emigrant deprives the State of the contribution he would have made in either direct or indirect taxation and every emigrant leaving a gap in his family circle contributes in some small way to the breaking up of even one more family. If there is one contributory factor bigger than another to the breaking up of family life in this country it is emigration. We talk about Christian principles. We talk about combating foreign and heathen ideologies, but what could be more unchristian or more calculated to deprive us of our own tradition than the emigration which is daily, weekly and yearly helping to break up the pattern of our family life?

This country should support twice the population that is at present supported. Holland, Belgium and Denmark are three small countries, yet Holland supports a population of 750 per scuare mile; Belgium supports a population of 712 per square mile, and Denmark supports a population of 253 per square mile, while we in this part of partitioned Ireland, the Twenty-Six Counties, support a population of 112 per square mile. I would suggest to the House that its time would have been better spent in considering figures of that nature and in making an honest approach to the problems we were sent here to solve than in indulging in tirades of abuse, in criticising for criticism's sake and in cavilling criticism merely for the purpose of scoring debating points.

I would be a dishonest person were I to deny that I am disappointed that a greater effort was not made in the past 12 months to tackle the twin problems of emigration and unemployment. I would be dishonest if I did not admit that, and I admit it freely. I am disappointed that no provision has been made, as far as I can ascertain, in the Book of Estimates for the implementation of that policy of full employment at which Deputy Corry so cheaply sneered. I do believe, and I am perfectly sincere in saying it, that the intentions of this Government are good. I believe it is a Government of good intentions, but I would urge on them that the people will not be satisfied with good intentions. The people will ultimately demand results.

I believe that the scheme announced by the Minister for Agriculture has in it the germ of a good idea and I hope for great things from it. I do not know whether I am completely satisfied that all the details of that scheme have been worked out in such a way as to make it fool-proof, but at least I must give the Minister credit for this, that apparently an honest effort is going to be made to increase the fertility and productivity of our land, and to end the spectre of rural unemployment. I regret the announcement recently made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in connection with the erection of the new coalburning electric generating station at the Pigeon House. I urge as strongly as I can upon the Minister the necessity for concentrating on the erection of turf-fired generators and that, as a matter of policy, the Department should concentrate on utilising our own native fuel resources for fuel and power purposes.

The Deputy knows, of course, that it was the previous Government which took the decision on that matter, notwithstanding what Deputy Aiken said.

I was not aware of that. I am glad the Minister has corrected me on the point. It only makes all the more nauseating the hypocrisy of the attack made on the Minister which, unfortunately, I adopted as having some basis in fact. I urge on the Minister for Industry and Commerce also that he should accept as axiomatic the fact that agriculture, particularly with the developments that have come, are coming and are bound to come in the future, developments in mechanisation, etc., will not be able to absorb all our employable surplus and I would ask that the Government's attention be directed in future, as I am afraid it was not in the past, towards the building up and further development of our industrial economy here. As to other aspects of the Government's policy, I think there are some upon which we can congratulate the Government and others, perhaps, upon which we must be somewhat critical. I believe that the Taoiseach and the Government as a whole are to be congratulated on the repeal of the External Relations Act.

Legislation may not be discussed, only administration.

Very well, I shall leave that. May I put it this way?

I hope the Deputy is not attempting to get round my ruling.

I was not attempting to discuss legislation per se.

The Deputy must keep to administration.

May I say that the attitude of the Government and the manner in which their administration has been brought more into accord with the wishes of people who believe——

It is a bit of a joke.

I do not know whether Deputy Kissane considers it a bit of a joke or not, nor am I very concerned, but I intend, subject to your ruling, Sir, without any assistance from Deputy Kissane, to make my speech in my own way. I believe the Government are to be congratulated on their attitude, and on the work that has been done to raise the question of Partition to a completely new level.

That is neither expenditure nor administration.

Portion of the expenditure of the Department of External affairs and, certainly, quite a considerable part of the administration of that Department were concerned with propaganda concerning Partition and the presentation of our case concerning Partition to the world.

The Deputy will have a full opportunity on the Vote for the Department of External Affairs to deal with that matter.

I bow to the ruling of the Chair. Am I to take it that I am not in order in referring to the administration of the Department of External Affairs?

If the Deputy starts a debate on Partition, it will end next, week, not to-night, or to-morrow. The Deputy realises that.

With great respect——

I rule that Partition is out of the discussion.

Am I to take it that the administration of the Department of External Affairs is out of order?

I did not say so. Administration is in order. I did not know that the Department was administering the Six Counties yet.

It is on the way, please God.

Let me say that the manner in which the Minister for External Affairs has carried out his duties since he took up office has resulted in our claim to the recovery of the Six Counties, which are occupied against our will by foreign troops, being put more effectively and more cogently before the world and that it has been brought on to a new plane in international affairs.

If I may introduce a critical note, I would like to say that there are some of us who are not satisfied that, in its attitude to the Irish language, the Government is as forward or as progressive as it might be. It is part of the task of this generation to see that the language is not lost, and if Irish, as the spoken language of the people, is to be saved, a definite and distinct lead must be given by the Government in this respect.

With regard to the administration of the Department of Justice, I am glad to join another Deputy who spoke, in congratulating the Minister for Justice on the peace and concord which the policy of the Government and his administration of the Department have secured for the country during the past 13 months. That was a position which did not exist during the period of office of his predecessor. It is very easy, watching the conduct of the Deputy who preceded the Minister, watching the personal bitterness which appears to animate every sentence that he let fall from his lips——

There is no bitterness in that man, and the Minister for Justice knows it.

It is very easy to realise the change that is being wrought by the present Minister. I have no desire to introduce a note of bitterness into any debate here. In the past I may have erred, just as many others have; and it is not always easy to be moderate in one's language. The headline for this House which was proposed by the Leader of our Party in this morning's papers is one which this House could follow with benefit to itself and to the country. I have sat here and have heard that very man, the Minister for External affairs, slandered —and slandered in a way, perhaps, in which even the Chair was not in a position to protect him. I submitted here to slanders issued by Deputies Aiken and Boland. Deputy Aiken, and in particular Deputy Boland, let loose on me the filthiest form of personal abuse.

The Deputy might relate that to expenditure or administration.

I am relating it to the administration of the Department of Justice.

In the last 12 months?

Yes. Deputy Boland——

He was not Minister for Justice in the last 12 months.

I am contrasting the administration of that Department during the past 12 months with its administration during the previous periods.

A very dangerous line. Somebody else may go back 20 years—and then we will have a debate.

I know only this, that Deputy Boland on two occasions —once since I became a member of this House and once before that—referred to a letter which I wrote in 1936.

I do not see its relevancy to this debate.

I suggest that the letter has relevance to this debate and I hope to show you its relevance. In the course of the letter I expressed the belief that it was not in the interests of the country or of the people that the differences between the I.R.A., of which I was then a member, and the then Government——

Would the Deputy state the time?

It is not relevant, obviously. That was 13 years ago.

Deputy Boland went 13 years back in order to disseminate slanderous, lying statements against me.

In reference to the Department of Justice.

We are not discussing the Department of Justice now. We are not entitled to.

Who says so?

The Chair says Deputies are not entitled to discuss all the details of administration, but only broad general principles. I do not believe that the letter is one of the broad general principles.

Surely you did not rule that the Department of Justice may not be discussed?

I am not subject to cross-examination. The position is very simple. Expenditure and administration and questions of wide principle may be discussed, not details. I do not think a letter of 1936 is a matter of wide principle in relation to the administration of the past 12 months.

I do not propose to pursue the matter. My only reason for introducing this was that this was the only opportunity I had of nailing a foul and malicious lie uttered by Deputy Boland against me.

In this House?

Yes. I do not propose to pursue it further. You have ruled on it, Sir, and I will look for another opportunity. I want to congratulate the present Minister for Justice on the fact that the difference of his attitude, and the difference of policy being pursued by this administration, made it possible for all sections of the Irish people to come together and work along common lines towards the achievements of our national objectives. We on these benches will support the Government in this Vote on Account. We believe that, while the Government may not be perfect, it is the best Government that can be got at the moment, and we believe the one essential is to make sure that the people who sit on those benches opposite in opposition shall be kept in opposition.

Mr. Blaney

This debate has covered a very wide field but I do not propose to go into all the details of the different aspects of the administration of the different Departments during the past 12 months. I intend to confine myself to certain matters and particularly to matters pertaining to the people of my constituency. As the members of this House are aware, Donegal is primarily an agricultural county. Her farmers are, generally speaking, small farmers and, being small farmers, they have relied and still rely to a very great extent on tillage as the means by which to live. That being so, the production of those crops which are most suited to them and to their land, and the marketing of those crops are matters of paramount importance to those people. Briefly, the main cash crops in my constituency are oats, potatoes and flax.

If we consider the position in regard to the marketing of flax we shall find that a rather grave state of affairs exists for the growers. We are all aware—it has been discussed very widely of late—that negotiations were carried on on behalf of the Government with the Northern Ireland spinners to arrange a price for the coming year's flax crop. Last June the Northern spinners offered 31/3 per stone, grade 5, hand-scutched, dam-retted flax. That offer was turned down and, in the light of subsequent events, it was a grave mistake to have done so. Possibly those responsible may have seen some reason why it should have been turned down, but the results have shown that it was a grave error of judgment. A sum of 31/3 per stone for 4,000 tons of flax would realise to the farmers growing that crop £1,000,000. It is strange that that price was not accepted, but stranger still is the fact that no approach, so far as we know, was made to the Northern spinners until some time before Christmas and by that time the spinners had made alternative arrangements. Instead of offering to take 4,000 tons of flax, they were then in a position to accept only 2,000 tons and at a figure very slightly above the original offer. Their offer then was to take 2,000 tons at 32/- per stone. That would realise £544,000 odd to the farmers growing flax. Apparently the Government considered that that offer was not acceptable and, so far as we know, the spinners were told that we would have nothing to do with it. But had the growers been told then and there that there was no possibility of a satisfactory arrangement I would not criticise that action, because had these negotiations been completely broken off in December and the country informed of the position, the farmers who had intended to grow flax would have had an opportunity of changing around to some other crop.

My criticism is that the farmers were not given that opportunity and that those people who were in the habit of taking land in conacre were in the position that the land was going up for auction and it was a case of either taking it then or not getting it at all. Further, due to the collapse of the oats market—to which I shall refer shortly —the demand for land for flax round December and January was greater than ever before. Farmers contracted to take land in conacre this year for as high as £20 per acre on the assumption —an assumption for which one cannot blame them, since no statement was made to the effect that there would not be a satisfactory price—that there would be a satisfactory market price for their crop. We find that, having taken the land and having committed themselves very heavily, the Government Information Bureau announced as late as the 3rd March that negotiations were completely broken off. The urgency of this matter may not have been evident to the Government or to the Minister concerned, but it was evident to the flax growers and to the millers. Representatives of the flax growers and of the flax millers met the spinners and arranged to sell this year's crop of flax at a price which is 4/- lower than the second offer which was made to our Government. The price of 28/- per stone for 3,000 tons, which they are now offered, is not really a good price nor is it anything like a really good price, but the farmers who had committed themselves —who had taken the land and made arrangements, and who had been preparing the land up to the time of the break in the negotiations—were not then in a position to say one thing or another. They had to have a market for their crop and if they could get a market which would pay their costs then they had to accept it. That was not the position the farmers were in last December. That was not the position the farmers were in last June. I say that, when there was power of bargaining on our side and when a fair price was offered for 4,000 tons last June, the price offered should have been accepted, and it was a fairly good basis on which to begin negotiations. I would urge the Government and the Minister, therefore, not to leave the farmers to carry the burden which is placed on them by the failure of the Government and the Department concerned to negotiate a fair price, a fairly decent price, when they had the opportunity. I would urge on the Government and the Minister to consider subsidising to some extent the farmers who grow this crop in the present year.

Let us leave that and consider the question of oats. Oats is a crop which is of great importance to the people of Donegal, particularly the people in my constituency. Last spring very great encouragement was given by the Government to farmers to grow oats. On the 3rd March, 1948, the Minister for Agriculture was quoted in the Irish Independent as follows:—

"I ask you to do all you can to increase the area in barley, oats and potatoes. For each of these three commodities there will be a certain and profitable market all next year."

There has been neither a certain market nor a profitable market for oats or potatoes up to the present. The quotation continues:—

"The more oats a farmer grows the greater the service to the nation. If any farmer finds himself with a surplus and communicates with the Department of Agriculture, arrangements will be made to put him in contact at once with a purchaser who will take his surplus at a satisfactory price."

As to the statement that the more oats the farmers grow the greater the service to the nation, possibly there is something behind all this that I cannot see and that the farmers of County Donegal cannot see. I cannot see where the greater service is. The farmers cannot see it. There is one thing that we can see very definitely, and that is lots of oats—some of it in the fields, where they have no storage —lying there without a buyer at any price. If that is service to the nation then some of us had better be born again. As to the point about communicating with the Department if there is no market available and arranging a purchaser, that is a question that has been brought up in the House and has been spoken of outside. The Minister has been asked on a few occasions, both inside and outside the House, where the purchaser was for these oats, where the promised market was available. Although he said there that if he was made aware of a surplus of oats he would immediately put the farmers in contact with a buyer, he has not done so, and at this late stage in the season it is hardly likely that a buyer exists; otherwise, we would have heard from him.

There is another aspect of that encouragement to grow more oats that was given this time last year. There was an increase in the area under oats of 57,000 acres. That merely adds to the complications in the market at the moment. Another serious feature is that 63,000 acres less of wheat was grown and that consequently we have to import the wheat that might have been grown on those 63,000 acres.

In the Irish Times of the 20th March of last year an announcement appeared urging the farmers to grow from one to five acres extra of barley or oats. The announcement was concluded with the words “Let's show them”. It was signed by the Minister for Agriculture. I presume that “Let's show them” meant “Let's show Fianna Fáil and their followers what the farmers could do and what the Department of Agriculture, under the guidance of Mr. Dillon, could do.” I will grant that they have shown us all right but I am very much afraid that what they have shown us is not what one might have expected would be shown from reading that announcement this time last year.

In my constituency there are farmers to-day who last year paid up to £20 per acre for land on which to grow oats. In addition, they had to buy seed oats at from 4/- to 4/6 per stone. That was a large outlay before they had started even to put a plough in the ground. Consider then the ultimate cost, the cost of preparing the ground, sowing the crop, harvesting. The amount of money laid out by small farmers in this grow oats campaign was very considerable and in many cases was beyond the means of the people concerned and they had to go to the banks for loans to cover the cost. The money due on land had to be paid some time around October or November. At that time the promised market for oats had not materialised and the farmers who had taken land and bought dear seed and dear manures were faced with bills which they could not pay. They had taken the Minister's advice in all good faith, as any farmers would be expected to do, and they found themselves let down very seriously.

Then came the election which was the cause of my being here. There was no market for oats when the election campaign began. There was no hope of a market for oats but, as the election campaign progressed, and in the hope that something could be done to stem the anti-Government tide that was already beginning to flow at that time, announcements and advertisements were inserted in the paper the week prior to polling day in East Donegal, saying that a price of 2/- per stone had been fixed for oats. They did not, however, elaborate to the extent that might have been desirable in that case. They did not say that that 2/- was in respect of oats bushelling 40 lbs.

The oats which was below 40 lbs. to the bushel was further reduced in price. All that we heard at that time was that oats was 2/- a stone. There was no question as to whether it was good oats or bad oats. I may say that oats has to be fairly good to bushel 40 lbs. Had the market promised in those advertisements held out, the farmers, who were put to the costs which I have enumerated, would at least have got out with their costs.

They might have lost a little, but it would not be very much. However, those advertisements and the market promised at the last moment before the polling day of a critical by-election struck me, as it struck many others, as being very fishy. On all the platforms from which I and my colleagues spoke the time those advertisements were inserted promising 2/- per stone, we advised the farmers, in good faith, to sell their oats and to sell it before polling day, or otherwise there might not be a market available.

Now, that statement on my part was mentioned in the House here a short time ago. Why it was I still do not know, but unfortunately the exhortation which I addressed from all platforms during that election campaign was only too true. Oats bushelling 40 lbs. was being bought at 2/- per stone until the Saturday before the election by the limited number of millers allowed to buy the oats, but even that limited number found that they had not sufficient storage for the glut of oats offering. Strange enough, at that time there were other millers who had storage, but they would not be allowed to buy. Even if they had that would have been only a drop in the ocean. The market closed on the Saturday before the election and was never reopened.

When the Government is questioned as to what is to happen the surplus oats, we are told that the good market promised is actually there if only we avail of it, and that the way to do so is not by going to your miller or buyer to dispose of the oats, but to feed it to live stock. That reminds me very much of promising a man that you will pay him a good price if he quarries stones, but when he does you tell him that the market which you promised him for the stones is there, but with a difference. You told him that you would give him a good price for the stones and that you are still prepared to do so if he uses them to build houses. A parallel can be drawn with the promise given this time last year to buy oats at a good price, namely, that there is according to the Minister a good price for it provided the farmer feeds it to live stock. That promise was even more ridiculous than my comparison about the stones, because in the case of the latter they can be used ad lib for the building of houses, but you cannot get cattle and other live stock just by pressing a button to consume your surplus oats. It would take time to produce live stock in sufficient numbers to consume the vast surplus of oats which we have in our county this season. The promises that were set forth in the Minister's advertisements were fulfilled in a very negative way.

That is all, I think, that I have to say about oats, except that the market position at the moment has left our farmers in Donegal, and I am sure elsewhere, in a very critical position indeed. I really wonder if the Minister is fully aware of the hardship that he has been responsible for causing to good, industrious, honest farmers in my county. If he were, I wonder would he treat the matter as lightly as he has done up to the present. It is really hard to believe that he fully realises the implications of the flop which there has been in the oats market. I scarcely believe that if he did he could possibly let things just drift as they are doing at the moment. I would say, for the Minister's information, that even at this late hour, I would be very glad to see some effort made to shift this oats, and thus help to relieve our farmers who are being crushed out of existence by this flop in the market—if ever there was a market.

Potatoes are another crop which is of very great importance to our people. There are two markets for them, one for ware potatoes and the other for seed potatoes. I think that I had better deal with them separately, and take the market for ware potatoes first. We were told that there was a guaranteed market for 50,000 tons at ware potatoes. For some reason or another the market for 50,000 tons at £10 13s. Od. a ton did not materialise at all. There was a substitute arrangement. Instead of 50,000 tons of potatoes being exported, as we had expected, to Great Britain at £10 13s. Od. a ton, an arrangement was arrived at whereby £8 15s. Od. per ton would be paid for those 50,000 tons, 30,000 tons of which would remain in this country and the balance of 20,000 tons would be exported to Britain. Some people were puzzled as to what it was intended to do with the 30,000 tons to be retained here until a project, much criticised and much maligned by members of the present Government when they were in opposition, came to the rescue.

We find that the alcohol factories were described some years back, when they were being erected, as white elephants. If it was not for these white elephants, 30,000 tons of our potatoes would be rotting, together with other innumerable tons that are rotting at the present time. They relieved the situation, but it was only a substitution, because the potatoes taken to the factories were graded potatoes, strictly graded. The smaller potatoes and the mis-shaped potatoes were not accepted. Those were the types of potatoes which in former years the farmer sold to the alcohol factories. I believe 30,000 tons are the total capacity of these alcohol factories; at least that is the total quantity they will handle this season, so that the usual type of potato which would have gone to those factories will not now be taken. The factories actually have more on their hands than they can handle. It is a case of taking from one pocket and putting into the other.

That is only part of the story. That is the part which has affected us seriously in Donegal, but that is not quite so serious as the present bungling and muddling in regard to the seed potato market. Questions have been asked here as to what will happen seed potatoes for which the price was fixed before the crops went into the ground last year. Although some of those seed potatoes were bought at the proper time, early in the season, the vast bulk of them are still on the hands of the farmers, and they are depreciating. At the last moment we find that not alone have the alcohol factories been used to get rid of the ware potatoes, but the seed potatoes are now to be offered. There are complications there. One complication is that the factories have only a certain capacity and that capacity is already filled. How then will it be possible to continue taking the ware potatoes that we were recently promised would be taken, if we are to send in seed potatoes as well?

I should like to know what price will be paid for these seed potatoes. It is said that the price will be £8 15s. Od. for graded seed potatoes which the farmers were led to believe would fetch £14 or £15. Most farmers balanced their budgets for the year on the return they expected to get from their crops. The return from the seed potatoes will, from what I can hear, be very much diminished. If a farmer has made certain commitments on the strength of what he would get for his potatoes and he finds now he will get only half that amount, I wonder will the commitments he made be settled for half the amount for which he originally committed himself? I feel sure they will not.

Again, just as in the case of flax, I urge the Minister to compensate the farmers, help them to make up the difference between the price which they will get and the price which they believed they would have got. If he will do that it will relieve the farmers at least for this year. The Minister should now make a statement in relation to these matters. There is no time to be lost as regards the position of the seed potato market next year and for years to come. Do not let the same thing happen as happened in the case of flax. Do not wait until the twelfth hour, until the point is reached when you can do nothing. Do not wait until you have no bargaining power left. In other words, if we wait until the seed potatoes are sown we will have a very poor hope of driving any sort of good bargain with a foreign country to take that crop when it is harvested.

It is already late in the day and I ask the Minister to realise that it is not when the crop is growing that the price should be fixed or the market arranged. He should do something now because this is and has been a very remunerative industry for our people. Nobody can claim that this was really an emergency market. This market was in existence long before the emergency and there is no reason why it cannot be kept going. It is about time the farmers concerned were told whether or not they should grow seed potatoes. I hope the Minister will soon make a statement about the future policy with regard to seed potatoes.

There is one thing which gravely affects my county and that is the abandonment of the hand-won turf industry. I do not intend to go into this in any detail further than to say that it has caused grave hardship and has been responsible for much unemployment and emigration. I listened here a few nights ago to a Government Deputy painting a very sorrowful picture of the situation in Dublin because of the scarcity of fuel in the very severe winter of 1947. With that picture I entirely agree, because I know what it was like here in Dublin. I would not mention this had the Deputy finished there, but he went on to blame the then Government entirely for that fuel famine. He did not take into consideration what the weather was like during the previous turf season. He did not take into consideration just how severe that winter was. He considered none of these things, but in a broad statement he said that the then Fianna Fáil Government was entirely to blame for that very sorrowful picture which he had painted of people shivering in Dublin during the winter of 1947. The shivering was right, but the second part was wrong. That brings me to something which may amaze people here. I come from a county which was one of the largest turf-producing counties during the emergency. Though the past winter has been a mild one, people shivered in Donegal. I wonder will that be put to the credit or the discredit of the present Government, just as the shivering of 1947 was put to the discredit of Fianna Fáil. It must be remembered that this year the position was somewhat different from 1947. In 1947 coal was not available in any quantity. The hand-won turf scheme was abandoned and the production of hand-won turf was frowned upon and discouraged because, as we were told, ample coal supplies would be forthcoming. This year hand-won turf was not produced for sale in Donegal. Because of the discouragement of the production of hand-won turf by the Government many of our young men in Donegal left the county, with the result that not even enough labour was left to produce turf for ourselves. When the winter came, coal supplies, which we were told would be readily available, were not available. There were weeks since last October when no coal could be obtained. There were weeks when no turf could be obtained. In Donegal we have very little timber. Had we had the same severe winter as we had in 1947, the shivering in Dublin in 1947 could not be compared with the shivering in Donegal this year. If the Fianna Fáil Administration is to be blamed in any small degree for what happened in 1947, then the present Government is very much to blame for the situation in Donegal during the past winter.

The abandonment of hand-won turf resulted in unemployment and emigration to a considerable extent. We are told that the machine-won turf scheme would be doubled. In other words, the scheme which Fianna Fáil had in mind is now to be put into operation. Due to the fact that a year has elapsed before the scheme is implemented, we now find that 40,000 emigrants have left the country and are not available for employment on that scheme. In 1947, 31,000 left. In 1948, 40,000 left. In my county alone there was an increase of 1,000, representing a 50 per cent. increase, in emigration. In the western counties the official figures show a 5,000 increase in unemployment this year. In Donegal there has been an increase of 1,000. When we throw our minds back over the past 12 months and recall the promises that were made before the general election, the situation is appalling. Emigration was to be stopped. Unemployment was to cease and nobody would be asked to work for less than £6 per week. After 12 months in office we find the Government who made those promises faced with an emigration rate unequalled for many years. Unemployment is rampant. If some improvement is not shown there will be very few left in my county at the end of the next 12 months with the exception of those who have private means. I urge upon the Minister the necessity to bear in mind the recommendations and requests I make. I make them in good faith. The farmers are in a very serious situation and it is the Government which is responsible for that situation because they are the governing body of this State. I urge upon him the necessity of relieving the situation to such an extent that we will at least keep our people at home.

There is one other matter to which I wish to refer. It does not concern Donegal alone. It concerns every county of the 26 counties. As the youngest and most recently elected Deputy to this House, I wish to protest in the most emphatic manner against the decision of the Government to abandon this year the erection of a memorial to the heroes of 1916 and the Black and Tan war. It is strange that in this year, of all years, with the Coalition Government boasting a 26-county Irish Republic, men like Pearse, Connolly, Brugha, Mellowes and others should be forgotten. It is stranger still that the decision of a Fine Gael Minister on this matter should be approved of apparently by all Parties in the Coalition Government. I do not want to say anything that might cause friction in this matter. It is a matter which is above politics and it should be kept above them. I appeal to the Government to think twice before they abandon the proposals or reject the plans already made. Surely the members of the Government are not so devoid of gratitude, so lacking in public spirit or in Irish spirit as to forget the men whom I have mentioned, the men who, by their actions and by their sacrifices, have made it possible for us to be here as we are, freely elected representatives of a democratic nation. There is still time, and I make this appeal not from any political idea. I make it purely and simply, as I feel it should be made. I feel that possibly the significance of this matter to the Irish people has been overlooked, and I appeal to the Government to reconsider it while there is yet time. In making this appeal I feel sure that I am expressing the sentiments of the people, young and old, of this country, and I ask the Government to alter this decision and to go ahead with the plans and proposals to erect a fitting memorial to commemorate the men who won for us the freedom that we enjoy to-day.

Having come to the end of the Government's first year in office, as a member who entered the precincts of this House exactly 13 months ago, I should like to offer a few comments on the administration as it appeared to me from that date. The running of a country is just like the running of a business, and as most businessmen at the end of 12 months take stock, if I am allowed a few short moments, I propose to take stock—to criticise where I think criticism is necessary and to eulogise where I think eulogies are deserved. When this inter-Party Government came into power 12 months ago doubts were expressed as to whether it would last more than a year. To me, at any rate, it is quite apparent that, as month succeeds month, the Parties on this side of the House are being welded more closely together than many people opposite had visualised as being possible. The welding of the various members of the inter-Party Government has, in my opinion, been reinforced more and more every day, due, I may say, in a large part, to the tactics employed on several occasions on the opposite side of the House. Allegations have been made against members of this Government, accusations have been hurled across the House which to me at any rate have been nauseating and at times certainly most disgusting. As one brought up in a school of politics where the emphasis at all times was on clean tactics, and as one who served my apprenticeship on local councils before I entered the Dáil, I must confess that I have been sadly disillusioned by what frequently occurs in this House. One expects more from men who are put in the proud position of representing the various constituen of the country in the national Parliament. Having said that I do not wish to embark further on an avenue of discussion that might stir up any bitterness amongst the Deputies on any side of the House.

I should like to pay a tribute, first of all, to the Minister for Finance because I realise that the Minister's Department is the pivot around which every other Department in this House revolves. The Minister has got to find the money for every other Department and I think everybody, except the most rabid political partisan, must agree that he has done an excellent job of work during the 12 months he has occupied the position. When the Government came into office, one of the first acts of the Minister was to remit the £6,000,000 that was imposed by the previous Government in the Supplementary Budget. That was a great feat after a month or two in office. Then some months afterwards, he came along to give the most deserving sections of our people, the poorer sections, in the Social Welfare Bill increased old age pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions and blind persons' pensions without imposing on the taxpayers any great hardship.

This Government is a very human Government and a very humane Government. Their first step was to help the most necessitous amongst us. We get many public men appealing at times for help for the poor. We get politicians, particularly at election times, making the emotional chords of the poor vibrate more rapidly by promises of what they will do for them if they get into power but I think every Deputy must admit that the Tánaiste has administered the Department of Social Welfare in a thoroughly capable and efficient manner and has done an excellent day's work for the poor people. Ireland is not a very wealthy country but I think it was a very creditable achievement on our part, that in our first 12 months in office, we were able to expend £2,500,000 on such services while the Opposition, when they were the Government, could not even find £500,000 to help the most needy in the community. So much for finance.

We come then to the Department and to the Minister that have been made the target of more slanderous statements than any other Minister or Department in the Government—the Minister for Agriculture. I heard here to-day a colleague representing the same constituency as I do, vilifying and trying to pull down into the muck the name of the Minister for Agriculture. I do not think he is quite competent to do that. There is not a chapel gate or a meeting throughout East Cork at which for the past six or seven months, these tactics have not been employed. One would think that anybody occupying a high Ministerial position would be immune from the rottenness involved in making him a political target just for the sake of scoring some petty points. We heard Deputy Corry here to-day referring to "the Minister for Culture" and trying to mimic the Minister for Agriculture as he is. I can only say that if I were to choose my standard of culture as between that of Deputy Dillon, the Minister for Agriculture, and that of Deputy Corry, I know from whom I should learn my lesson in that respect. I do not want to emulate my colleague or to attempt to follow him into the depths to which he descended this afternoon for I think his conduct was despicable. The Deputy talked about the poor of East Cork whom he said he represents. I am sorry Deputy Corry is not present now but may I put this question to him: What did he put in of his own money into any Irish industries during the past 15 or 20 years? I am not ashamed to say that I put in a considerable amount. He puts it in with his tongue but I put it in out of my own pocket.

Who is being personal now?

Was he not fighting for his country when you were making this money?

There were people who gave their lives for Ireland when Deputy Corry's people were flogging them. They got no pensions either and neither did they look for them.

Did you do any fighting?

I did my own part.

The Deputy should address the Chair.

I have this proud boast to make in this House which I hope will satisfy Deputy Killilea. I am the great-great-grandson of one of the leaders of the United Irishmen and they looked for no pensions.

Many a father and grandfather had a bad son, you know.

I know what you did.

Perhaps as much as they did earlier.

I know that this gentleman, Deputy Killilea, seems to be the chief interrupter of everybody who speaks in this House. Because of the glasses over his eyes you cannot tell which way he is looking. He tries to interrupt everybody. During the 12 months I have been in this House I have never interrupted and I am not going to have Deputy Mark Killilea interrupting me.

Thank you.

Acting-Chairman

Let us get back to the Vote on Account.

I come from an agricultural community and the gloom and the doom that I have heard preached here for the last two days by various speakers on the opposite side of the House certainly have not reached the sunny parts I have the honour to represent. I am a business man myself, believe it or not. Running a country is running a business. I depend on the agricultural community and practically everyone who comes into me is far better off than he ever was before. I do not want to take any credit for that on behalf of the Government. They were very lucky in that they had a good year; the weather was kind. Everybody will agree that since the Government came into power 12 months ago the weather has been on the best behaviour it has been on for the past 15 or 16 years. I sincerely hope we shall have a much better harvest next year and that the doom and gloom from the Opposition Benches for the past 12 months can be erased from the map of this little land of ours anyway. We must realise that the boom days are over. During and after wars there is an artificial atmosphere; money is in circulation. If the people of this country work a little harder we have no reason to fear the future.

In conclusion, I should like to congratulate every member of the Government. I have been with them all and they are doing a good job. They are most approachable and if you have a decent and reasonable case they will listen to you and if possible fulfil it. You have at times to be turned down but in my 12 months in this House I must say that every Minister I have approached has paid attention to my case. They are plain men of the people, who speak for the people and both the Government and the Deputies, on this side of the House at any rate, work for the plain people.

Major de Valera

In relating remarks to these Estimates one starts with a certain amount of difficulty by virtue of the fact that the comparisons in the Estimates themselves are made between the Estimates which the Minister proposes for this year as against a Book of Estimates which was prepared in the time of his predecessors but which was published after he came into office and for which he accepted no responsibility. I gather from the information available in the reports for last year that the Estimate for last year which had been prepared by the previous Government had not been finally approved. Be that as it may, a Book of Estimates was issued last year for £70,520,477. It is that figure together with the total of the Supplementary Estimates introduced in the year that is taken for comparison with the Minister's Budget for the next year. In other words, the comparison is between the expenditure of £65,460,570 which the Minister allows for next year and £71,801,298 which is the sum represented by an Estimate not finally approved by his predecessors but to which were added the Supplementary Estimates of the present Government. That is a most unsatisfactory basis for comparison because the comparison with that figure was made in adjustments during the course of the last year. For instance, in relating last Budget expenditure he related it to that Estimate and to a certain extent it is misleading, if not false, to continue that relation this year. I think a truer picture is to be got this way. When the Minister came into office last year he took this Book of Estimates for £70,500,000 and said that he was not going to accept responsibility. Then, as the Estimates came along individually through the year reductions in the individual Votes were estimated for. The best total, however, that one can get is in the Minister's own Budget statement where he says that:—

"The various economies both large and small which have already been decided upon will relieve this year's Budget to the extent of £2,509,000. The adjustments in subsidies which I shall mention later will reduce the bill by a net £3,015,000."

This was the Budget speech. I have only the typewritten copy which was circulated to members on that day. That was really the estimation because he had basically varied these proposed Estimates of his predecessors in two regards. He had made certain cuts in his Estimates and he had, in addition, made certain adjustments in the expenditure on subsidies, notably the projection of some of the burden into future years which produced the sum available. The sum of these reliefs is, in the Minister's own words, £5,524,000. In other words, that sum of £5,500,000 is to be subtracted from the £70,500,000 for comparison, leaving approximately £65,000,000 as the real Budget of the Coalition Government facing 1948 on that basis. To that can be added the Supplementary Estimates during the year, if you wish. They amounted to something over £1,225,000. That means that, on the best showing, for comparison this year the amount was approximately £66,000,000 as against £65,000,000, and, since the details of the calculation can be variously adjusted to give slightly different answers according to the approach, I think it is fair and reasonable for me to say that, on the very best showing, compared with actual performance last year, we are facing an expenditure of £65,500,000 for 1949-50 when we faced in 1948-49 an estimate of approximately the same character.

In other words, it is an as-you-were Estimate, so far as money is concerned, and that qualification is important. That is the very best one can say with regard to expenditure and, of course, the claim that the Minister is now able to say that he will take £6,000,000 off is completely unfounded. He is able to do no such thing. I am relating this to the very best showing from the Minister's point of view—I could make the figure look a lot worse —and we have to face the position that the Minister tells the country that he can do no better than last year, so the first question I ask is: where are the promised economies?

There is a further and more disturbing feature, and it is apparent when one turns to the Vote for Industry and Commerce under the heading of food subsidies. It is significant that, in the last Budget statement of the Minister, he was able to effect, he said, economies to the extent of £2,500,000, but his subsidy adjustment was greater, being in the region of £3,000,000. An examination of the Estimates last year and the year before will show that the expenditure on subsidies was a very large item, and here we are up against the fact that notwithstanding the very substantial likely saving in the matter of subsidies, on the very best showing from the Minister's point of view, so far as expenditure is concerned—I am relating myself strictly to this sum of money—he can do no better than last year. In fuel and food subsidies alone, on his own Estimates, he is to be relieved to the extent of £3,617,800, but notwithstanding the fact that that money is there, so to speak, to accrue to him, that he is relieved to that extent, he is not able to promise us any reduction in expenditure.

He is giving it to the old age pensioners.

Major de Valera

I will deal with that in a moment, too. The point is that, that being included and relating it to last year's effective figures, there should be that sum of £3,000,000 to play with and it looks as if it will not be there because the total sum on the very best showing is apparently the same. There are many things for which that saving could be providential. I can make a few general suggestions off-hand. That sum of £3,000,000 which is now available through savings on subsidies and whatever will accrue by reason of the fall in the price of wheat which, providentially, from the Minister's point of view, is falling or has fallen, could be available for other subsidies or for reliefs in other directions. Why, for instance, could not rationed and subsidised tea be extended in ration? Why could not money be switched to that purpose and why is this sum of £3,000,000 not available to give us subsidised tea on a more liberal basis? The milk problem which has been so aggravating our farmers— why could the money not be made available to ensure that the consumer will still get milk at the price at which he is getting it, while adjusting the difficulties from which our dairy farmers at present suffer? Alternatively, it used to be estimated that 6d. in the £ off the income-tax rate corresponded to £1,000,000 and there seems to be a great possibility there of an adjustment in income-tax. I hope the Minister will be able to tell us something like this in his Budget.

I merely mention these points to emphasise the fact that, on the figures, we are budgeting for approximately the same expenditure as last year, notwithstanding the fact that the fuel and food subsidies in particular have become a less serious demand to the extent of £3,000,000. It is quite obvious that one of the difficulties is that expenditure in other regards has gone up. Administrative expenditure has increased and that, to some extent, may have been inevitable, but the point is that there has not been a reduction in expenditure and the benefits which we could have anticipated from the fall in the price of imported wheat and similar commodities are apparently not going to accrue to our people.

It is instructive to look back, to take stock, as the previous speaker said, and I propose to devote a few minutes to taking stock. The last speaker referred to the post-war crisis. There was a post-war crisis. If people will consult the debates on the Supplementary Budget of 1947 and on the Vote on Account last year, details will be found. In the net, the picture was that during the early part of 1947 the cost of living shot up, due largely to an increase in world prices, an increase in the price of wheat and similar things as well as other factors. In order to hold prices of essential foodstuffs like flour, bread, sugar and tea, it was necessary to introduce the Supplementary Budget of that time to find the money to subsidise them. What was the result? The result was that the cost of living was held at 97 in November after the emergency Budget, but where are we regarding the cost of living to-day? It is 99 now and, having regard to the figures, there appears to be very little hope that it will come lower than 99. It is higher than it was immediately after the emergency Budget and, to say the least of it, it has not decreased. As far as the official statistics are concerned, it is relatively steady at that figure, a figure not much less than the figure representing August, 1947. If, however, you go down among the people in this city and ask them to take the list published by the Department, the prices published in the Trade Journal, and ask them whether they get their meat and various other commodities at those official prices listed in the Trade Journal, you will find as I have found—I will deal with it in detail on another debate—that the general complaint is that actual prices and even, apparently, official prices appear to be higher than those published in the Trade Journal. The cost of living, however, is based on those prices in the Trade Journal but I am placing myself, so to speak, on trial before a jury of the housewives of the city and I make bold to say that not only has the cost of living not decreased but, in fact, it has increased. That has been aggravated by such additional factors as an increase in rents as a result of the increase in rates. The City of Dublin by all appearances will have to face for this year an increase in rates over the already increased rates of last year. An increase in rates will be passed on to tenants as rents, so whether you are a householder or a tenant you will take that burden. Finding living accommodation is part of your problem of living and the cost of your living accommodation is part of your cost of living and the cost of living in that regard is going up.

Will the Deputy permit me to ask one single question?

Major de Valera

The Deputy can make his own speech when I am finished.

Wages have gone up to meet it.

Major de Valera

The cost of living has gone up and I am talking about the cost of living. It has gone up and you cannot contradict it.

You are only codding yourself.

Major de Valera

No. I am afraid you are if you will not face facts as they are. Here is what I say and I could not say it more plainly, leaving myself open to rebuttal if it can be rebutted. The figure is 99 and that is no decrease. The official figure is based on the list of figures in the Trade Journal, but take that list of prices to the people and ask them is it a fair and representative list of prices. Even if I grant you that it is, you have not reduced the cost of living.

The rates have gone up and gone up substantially with a promise of a further increase and that means an increase of rents. Therefore, I say, logically and mathematically, that the cost of living has demonstrably gone up. That is provable by a simple sum in arithmetic. Deputy Collins has stimulated me into a vigour which is perhaps quite unnecessary in this matter——

That makes it more interesting.

Major de Valera

——and I would prefer to take this in a quiet strain. We are facing another £65,000,000 a year expenditure by the people who promised a reduction in expenditure. I am not criticising them for having to expend a large amount. We told them before that they would have to and that there was no way out of it under present conditions, but they promised to reduce the prices. Wheat is going to give them a relief. They estimate that they will not have to find that £3,000,000 which had to be found in 1947-48 for food subsidies. Notwithstanding that, we have to face the same bill and a cost of living which is going up. All I hope and sincerely hope and pray is that when it comes to the Budget, if we are not going to have the benefit of that £3,000,000 in the Estimates, the Minister can give us some relief that will be of some good to the country, such as some help to the dairy people while not affecting the price of milk to the consumer or a reduction in income-tax. When the Budget comes I only hope that we will not have to ask where is it.

As this is an appropriate time, I would like to deal with trends when the Minister and his Government came into office. For the benefit of Deputy Collins I deal with facts, and when I quote figures they are figures from official sources. After the change of Government, Deputy Lemass said: "We are handing you a Government in good shape," or words to that effect. I will give you figures and let Deputy Collins contradict them. The post-war crisis came in 1947 and events from February, 1947, to August, 1947, are eloquent enough in that regard. It can be said at least for the Government of the day that they made up their minds to face the problem and that problem was undoubtedly solved, whatever about the method of solving it. The cost of living was caught and stabilised and you have not been able to do any better than they did at that time. The post-war soar of the cost of living from February, 1947, to August, 1947, was held and checked and you were handed a cost of living which was at any rate steady. The trend in that regard was favourable.

Now let me take the trend in regard to employment. I have here a document published in the early months of this year showing the trend of unemployment and employment in the years 1946-47 and showing a significant picture. It says in conclusion:

"The estimated average weekly number of persons employed in insurable occupations during 1947 exceeded the number of 1946 by 16.200. Insurable employment in 1947 was considerably in excess of the best pre-war year...Registered unemployment in 1947 was on average considerably less than in the preceding year."

There is an official Government publication published only this year. In 1947 the post-war trend had obviously been checked. The average weekly number of people employed in insurable occupations was up and better than in pre-war years. Unemployment was considerably less than in the preceding years, and that after the problem of absorbing the 30,000 men demobilised from the Army. What is the position regarding employment to-day?

You did not absorb them. You sent them to the English coal mines.

Major de Valera

I shall deal with that in a moment. I have a return for the 12th March: 84,506 unemployed, an increase of 4,593 over the corresponding period of the year before. In other words, what is the position? In regard to employment the trend was favourable, as in the case of the trend of the cost of living. Employment on the up-grade, unemployment on the down grade. What do we find now? Unemployment is up; the favourable trend was reversed.

Now let us take emigration. Exactly the same picture is shown in regard to emigration. I refer to passenger movements. The Minister for External Affairs in reply to a recent question stated:—

"The net emigration would be more fairly reflected by the figures of passengers entering and leaving the State by rail, road, ship and aircraft."

That is the statement of the Minister for External Affairs as reported in the Official Report, Volume 114 (7), column 969. Therefore, I am basing myself on these figures. What do we find? Taking these figures again from this source we find that in the year 1946 there was an outward balance; that is, there was emigration to the extent of 8,899. Practically 9,000 emigrated in 1946, according to these figures. In 1947, however, there was an inward balance. Not only was the trend in war emigration corrected, but it was wiped out and there was a favourable balance. Our own people were coming home. Here are the official figures. In 1947 the passenger movements show that 11,166 was the inward balance. Therefore, at the hand over, the war emigration trend was corrected and there was a favourable trend.

What is the result to-day? Here are the figures given in reply to a question by Deputy Larkin. For the year 1948 the passenger movement figures show a net balance outward, that is, emigration, of 12,793. The point I am making is that, the year after, the figures that you yourselves published prove the soundness of the statement made by Deputy Lemass that you were handed over a country in good shape. You were handed over a country where the cost of living had been stabilised, so that that problem had at least been held. You were handed over a country where employment was on the up-grade and unemployment was on the down-grade. These are just statements from your own published figures. You were handed over a country where the net emigration in 1946 was converted into a favourable figure in 1947. You reversed every one of these trends. Unemployment is up—I gave you the figures; emigration is up and, in fact, the cost of living is up, even if it is only in the matter of rates.

That leads us very seriously to ask where we are for the coming year. Notwithstanding the fact that there is a favourable trend with regard to world prices which leaves us at least the £3,000,000 which the Minister for Industry and Commerce estimates as a saving to play with, we are still, on the showing of the figures which I gave initially, estimating for approximately the same amount. My friends talked about economies. Whatever they have done—and full credit to them for whatever they have done, if they have achieved anything—what is the cost? There is many a man and many a girl in this city at present who has not a job and who will tell you the cost. Deputies have only to make inquiries in their own constituencies and they will so find. These figures are incontrovertible. I only hope that we can do better for 1949-50.

There is another very serious aspect of this problem, and it is this. We have promises of reduced expenditure at the expense of the reversal of the favourable trends and we are no better placed to face the future. It is undeniable that there at present exists a near world crisis; that now is the time for us to look ahead and consider how we are placed to face the future. In other words, in its broadest sense, there is our defence problem. The defence problem is not merely a problem of providing for the Army and its supplies, it is a problem relating to every aspect of the community's life. Already the trends, from the point of view of future security, are not too hopeful. One of the factors that got us through the last war and enabled us to survive at a food level which was, to say the least of it, one of the best in Europe, if not the best, was the fact that we had developed here in the pre-war years a suitable tillage programme. We are now, in a time of crisis, in the position that I understand we have 61,000 acres less under wheat than in 1947.

And a bigger yield.

Major de Valera

The yield very often depends on a number of factors from year to year. The acreage is a more reliable test.

I am not quite sure.

This chorus of interruptions must cease.

Major de Valera

Are we leaving ourselves completely unprepared in this matter of supplying food? Are we again going to drift into the position in which we will be completely dependent on foreign-grown food? If we are and another crisis comes upon us, where are we? The same problem arises in regard to fuel. Whatever view any Deputy took before the war as to the merits of the case for turf, although the schemes were not developed primarily in regard to defence, in fact it worked out that it was extremely providential that turf although the schemes were not developed primarily in regard to defence, in fact it worked out that it was extremely providential that turf development had been under way from 1932 because if it had been postponed until the war had broken out it would have been too late. The years of development from 1932 to 1939 were invaluable and left us in the position of having some fuel to carry on, so that we were not so completely dependent on foreign coal that those who had coal to give to us were not in a position completely to dictate to us because of our complete dependence on coal.

If one goes through a number of items of that sort one becomes rather seriously perturbed about the question of facing another crisis, apart from the narrower issues of defence which will be more properly dealt with on the Vote for the Defence Department. It seems to me that we are largely squandering our substance. Already last year the undersirable step was taken of mortgaging the future years for the benefit of the current year by evening out subsidies for future years. In other words, the current expenditure of 1948-49 on subsidies was to some extent transferred and will be borne in 1949-50 and other years. On another more appropriate occasion, we can go into the details of this defence problem I have indicated. In regard to our reserves generally, I fear that, just as our financial situation shows no marked change for the better, if any, the position in regard to our reserves and our capability of facing a crisis is deteriorating equally.

To what are some of these things due? They are due to the fact that a certain amount of financial juggling has been going on. One thing that I call financial juggling is this device of changing burdens from, say, the Central Fund to the local authority. Part of this Estimate this year is achieved at the expense of unloading on to public authorities, as was done last year, certain burdens and then, to add insult to injury, so to speak, the road grant to public authorities is taken away. Now, local authorities cannot supply for the monetary deficiencies of the central Government and in trying to evade burdens by devices of that nature one is driving headlong into a type of economic chaos for which everybody will pay in the long run. However, most of these items can be taken in each of the individual Estimates in detail, and I do not propose to deal with them now.

I will finish as I started, by pointing out that, in spite of everything, in spite of the sacrifices which had to be made by the country in order that the Minister could come down to the figure of £65,000,000 for his estimated expenditure, we do not seem to be able to do better than last year. In spite of the savings which are being effected on food subsidies, due to the fall in foreign prices for wheat and such things, we cannot do better. In spite of the fact that the Government took over when the trend was favourable we cannot do better. It is about time that some people looked at the figures and at the facts, as some of us have been looking at them and as some of us in the city and the country have been feeling them. If they did that, they might make a better job of running the country.

I support the granting of this money in the Vote on Account and do so in the honest belief that the taxpayers will get good value for practically every penny of it. I was surprised that Deputy Major de Valera should see fit to quote the words of Deputy Seán Lemass just a year ago, at the time of the change of Government, that he was handing over a country in good shape, in view of the fact that he was handing over a bankrupt transport system. From the revelations from the last few weeks, it transpires that cheques amounting to £500,000 have been written by the said transport company to meet liabilities and they cannot be issued. Furthermore, £1,800,000 will have to be guaranteed to the company to keep them going from this until the end of May, just two months away. It also transpires that, up to as late as last night, the company did not know where they were going to get the money to pay wages due to be paid to the men this evening.

The chief criticism of the administration of the inter-Party Government during the last year has come, of course, from the Fianna Fáil Party, now in opposition, and from its official organ, The Irish Press. That criticism, in effect, would appear to be that some of the Parties represented in the Government promised the electorate that they would keep down taxation, while others promised to increase social services, and that these two things cannot be done. We have proved here to-night that they can be done and that they have been done during the past year.

Mr. de Valera

Miracle workers.

Yes, miracle workers, as Deputy de Valera says. The Minister for Finance has generally been accredited throughout the country as being a miracle worker, to use Deputy de Valera's phrase. The two things have been proved to be not incompatible, because, of course, when candidates said they would keep down taxation they meant that they would keep it down to the lowest which the country could afford, and when others said they would increase social services they meant that they would increase them to the highest which the country could afford. The answer is in two things—one is efficient government, as we have had during the past year, and the other is the cutting out of extravagant luxuries which the country cannot afford, such as Constellations and luxury hotels. I, therefore, am very happy to be here to-night to give the Minister for Finance this money to carry on the good work of the past year.

I have one very big grouse against the Minister for Finance. He has kept just a little too much of a hold on the purse strings in regard to the pay of the Garda Síochána and of national school teachers, and in regard to the allocation for Garda pensions and national teachers' pensions. Our policemen are doing very good work and we must pay them for it and pay them in the manner that befits them.

Mr. de Valera

That ought to be no trouble to a miracle-worker.

Our national teachers are doing very good work and we must pay them a proper salary and give them proper conditions of employment. Our teacher pensioners have done very good work in their time and have been the backbone of the country. It is up to the Minister for Finance to see that they enjoy decent comfort in their retirement. I say to him that I do not believe there is one taxpayer in the whole of Ireland who would begrudge paying a little extra so as to give these classes fair play.

For the past two days I have been listening very carefully to the introductory remarks of some of the speakers on the Government Benches. The chief objection which the speakers on the Government Benches seem to have is that we are a critical Opposition. Surely they do not expect us to follow their blind policy all the way and to clap them on the back. They have even charged us with being discourteous. If it is discourteous to ask a Parliamentary Question or to criticise policy in the public interest we are at fault. Yesterday Deputy O'Higgins dealt with personalities. That seems to be a traditional failing in his family but I do not propose to follow his example in that respect. The Minister for Agriculture accused us in this House this afternoon of misrepresenting him and of doing all classes of things and he said that we are terrible people. He was going to see that we would be completely squashed. But when the Minister for Agriculture is asked an ordinary Parliamentary Question in this House he is often very abrupt and discourteous to those Deputies on this side of the House who may question him. He tries at all times to score some political victory. The Taoiseach has criticised us up and down the country just because we are an ordinary decent Opposition criticising public policy when the interests of this country demand it. As the largest Party in this country we have the right to do that.

My main trouble at the moment is the getting of exit permits for people who wish to leave this country to go to employment abroad. The general employment condition in this country at the moment is bad. Other Deputies have dwelt at length on that subject and I do not propose to refer to it except in so far as my constituency is concerned. The policy of the inter-Party Government during the past 12 months has been responsible for creating a certain uneasiness and uncertainty in our industries. The same can be said in regard to trade generally. Everyone you meet nowadays starts talking about the serious state of affairs generally and about the slump. For the past 12 months we have been faced with the problem of keeping people in employment—notwithstanding the policy of the present Government of trying to put people on the emigrant ship to Britain and America and various other parts of the world. Before the present Minister for Social Welfare took office he spoke in this House on the subject of emigration. He gave us to understand that if he had control of affairs everybody in this country would have employment. Speaking in this House on the 7th May, 1947, Deputy Norton, as he was then said: "If we are to judge the Government's policy by what is taking place every day of the week, then it appears to me that the Government has only one policy, that is, to let those who own industry and produce goods charge any price they like..." When Deputy Norton was made Minister for Social Welfare he made a speech in which he charged the industrialists in this country with being rogues and he said that they should be the guests of the Government behind a very thick wall, or words to that effect.

Not the whole of them, surely?

The Minister for Finance can reply in his own time. That is the policy of the Minister for Social Welfare who, when he was Deputy Norton, was to see that every single man and woman would have full employment. Old age pensions were to be raised to £1 5s. 0d. a week and we were to have social services galore. There was to be no end to the grandiose schemes which he was to put into operation when he would take up office. He has been in office now for 12 months and during that time he has succeeded, along with the other Ministers and back-bencers in the inter-Party Government, in disemploying hundreds of people who had had gainful employment under the Fianna Fáil régime. My experience during the last 12 months has been that through the medium of the public Press and through representations which I have made in this House I have been endeavouring to keep people in employment and I have been endeavouring to have certain industries protected so that more people would not be unemployed. When people in this country who have money to spend hear irresponsible statements by a Minister of State—statements such as that which was made by the Minister for Social Welfare threatening our industrialists —what can one reasonably expect the result to be? If a Minister threatens certain people who are in a position to invest money in this country how can one expect them to go ahead and do so?

The cry of the Labour Party and of the Clann was that we must reduce the cost of living. In fact the Clann promised to reduce the cost of living by 30 per cent. If you do not mind, they were to give full employment to every section of our people and they were to stop emigration. Their latest announcement is that they are going to build houses in the wood. The Woodpecker's Song might well be said to be the national anthem of that Party.

And yourself might be described as Little Red Riding Hood.

We still hear some marvellous promises but I would point out that the constructive schemes which Fianna Fáil had in operation, and all the schemes which were to be put into operation by Fianna Fáil for the benefit of the people of this country, have been at least curtailed and, in some cases, shelved. That is what Deputy O'Leary's Party and Deputy Larkin's Party and the Clann na Poblachta Party are now standing for.

Deputy O'Leary's Party shook you.

As a matter of fact they would swallow almost any pill at all and go in with the Government against Fianna Fáil.

They did not swallow the Fianna Fáil pill.

The Labour Party was so concerned about unemployment in this country that they did not mind hurting the small farmer who had not an economic holding and who was dependent to a great extent on getting some work on the roads of this country during a particular period of the year in order to supplement his small income and that of his family. If you do not mind, these Deputies trotted into the Lobby and supported the Government when a division was called by Fianna Fáil in regard to the proposed reduction by the Government of £2,000,000 in the road grants, with the result that county councils would have to increase the rates in their respective counties. That is what they are standing for.

You over there.

Time will tell. When we criticised, constructively, in the interests of the people, the reduction of over £2,000,000 in these grants we were told, again, that it was destructive criticism. Do you people over there stand for increasing the rates? I feel that the rates are high enough on the unfortunate people. I feel that the Central Fund will have to come to the aid of the ratepayers to a greater degree. I will deal later with other matters showing how the ratepayers are hard pressed. Things are not as good as they were and the farmers are not doing as well as they had been doing under the Fianna Fáil régime. The Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Dillon, can speak now of giving £30,000,000 or £40,000,000 towards land drainage or reclamation. I welcome any progressive step made by any Minister to reclaim land or anything else. Last week I put down a question asking the Minister for Agriculture the reason for the slowing up of the grants that were given under the previous Government for farm outbuildings. That, like other plans, had been put in abeyance by the present Government. I cannot find the question at the moment.

You lost your page.

I know that his answer was that there was no sanction that was worth while given in County Dublin for the farm buildings scheme. Why? That is a very necessary thing. The scheme was brought in by the previous Minister for Agriculture and I maintain that for farmers who are not in a position to reconstruct their form buildings that scheme was very necessary. They have been cut down by the Minister for Agriculture and then he comes along and says he is going to drain the land. How long is it going to take to do this job?

It will not take 16 years.

Is it going to take years or are we going to have the £40,000,000 spent in one year or in 20 years? I would like a statement on that from the Minister.

You must not have read it.

Or is it another promise that is going to be put in abeyance?

Did not the Minister say ten?

I would like to ask the Minister is he going to continue the grants towards the farm buildings scheme and, if so, will he try to expedite the various applications? We have heard a good deal about housing. In my constituency the housing scheme that was initiated by the previous Government is going ahead. No step has been taken during the last 12 months to expedite housing. We were told at the cross-roads by Clann na Poblachta, Labour and Fine Gael that they would work wonders in the matter of housing if they were put in, that they would do it immediately. I take this opportunity of paying public compliment to a very fine public officer, Mr. T.C. O'Mahoney. It is not his fault, at any rate, if there is any delay in that matter. I blame the Government for failing very badly in this matter now that supplies are available for housing.

As in the case of road grants, I maintain that also in the matter of housing the Central Fund should come to the aid of local authorities to an even greater extent than was the case under the liberal provisions of the 1947 Housing Bill because local authorities are hard pressed to get funds and the rates are going up. We must face that position and the only remedy is to get assistance from the Government. These royal tours down the country are of very little use to the people living in shacks.

What about——

I am constrained to ask Deputy Collins to retire. I have warned him repeatedly.

During the by-election in County Dublin and during the general election statements were made by candidates outside churches and at the cross-roads to the effect that if they had the reins of office they would have thousands of houses built every year. Nothing would stop them. They criticised red tape; they criticised the Government; they criticised Fianna Fáil; Fianna Fáil were the most awful people in the world notwithstanding that during our term of office, when we were trying, in face of great difficulties, to assert the independence of this State from 1933 to 1938, when we were trying from 1939 to 1946 to keep the country out of war, in face of economic and political difficulties, we handled the housing position as far as it was humanly possible to do so. The present Government, during the last 12 months, have not succeeded in grappling with that position although the supply position has improved and materials are plentiful. The Minister for Local Government said that 100,000 houses were needed, that 60,000 would be built by local authorities and that he wanted 40,000 built by private enterprise. Another thing that the inter-Party Government succeeded in doing was to impede to a great degree private enterprise. Those who could afford to build five- or six-room houses were discouraged to a great degree. They are good citizens and should be encouraged. I agree that the more defenceless sections of our people, the people who are poor and those not in a position to pay for decent houses, should be looked after first. We all remember the wild statements that were made by the Clann Deputies, the Clann potential candidates, the Labour potential candidates, the Labour Party and Fine Gael when they were out on the hustings. I respectfully remind them now that they have the opportunity to carry out their promises. They are failing to do so.

Is this a Lenten pastoral?

I am giving a résumé of the promises that were made by my friends when they were out on the hustings. Of course, the truth is bitter. I am delighted that Deputy Fitzpatrick is here to convey my reminder to his friends of some of the promises they made. I remember being in Swords when a number of these promises were made. The cost of living was to be reduced by 30 per cent., taxation was to be reduced, there was to be full employment and big increases for everybody. Afforestation was to be carried out to a great extent, but there is not a word now about one of these things. According to the Clann policy, Fianna Fáil were the friends of the moneyed people and, if you do not mind, it was said that we were responsible for keeping prices up.

The Government has been in office for more than 12 months and what has it done? The Clann na Poblachta Party has two members in the Cabinet in which there are also Fine Gael members, and, of course, I am not forgetting the archangels in the Labour Party. The workers could not exist at all if they had not the Labour Party to look after them. I am just reminding the House of false promises that were made more than 12 months ago. They accuse us now of reminding them of their platform speeches and their election addresses. Why should I not remind them? We expected when we went into opposition, that we would get the full advantage of the 30 per cent. reduction in the cost of living that was promised. How nice it would be to know that all our friends were living in a Utopia, and that they would never have to worry again. Surely, no Deputy would be so uncharitable as not to give credit to the people who said they were going to do all these things. But instead of doing them, they were not very long in office until they went into the lobby and were responsible by their votes for displacing hundreds of people whom we had in gainful employment. Of course, there was not a word about that. They went out again on the hustings, to the cross-roads and the chapel gates, and gave very nice excuses.

The Fianna Fáil Government had decided to spend £85,000 on mineral development. The members of this Government, by their votes, cut that off, and in addition they abandoned the short-wave station which we had decided to provide, and so the Taoiseach was obliged to have his speech to the people of the United States of America on St. Patrick's Day sent through the B.B.C. I should also like to remind the Minister for Defence of the number of ex-1916 men, the exArmy men who had service in the I.R.A. from 1919 to 1931 who had seven or eight years' service in a civilian capacity in barracks and camps throughout the country, that he and the archangels of the working-man— the Labour Party—the Clann, Fine Gael and the Independents, and I am not forgetting Deputy O'Leary, voted that these men should be sacked.

If you mention my name over there you will be sorry.

They all went in to the Lobby and voted for that. I cannot help reminding them of these things if they continue to do them. The workers and the people may some day wake up and realise that we were not the bad old Party that we were supposed to be. They will realise that we were concerned for every section of our people of every class and creed, and that we tried to raise them up economically. I say that the Parties who made all these wild promises have failed completely. Then there was the means test.

You did away with that.

That was to go completely. Deputy Davin would want to be on an old age pension committee to know how far it goes now, so I ask him to keep his hair on for a minute.

That is your best yet.

Deputy O'Higgins told us yesterday that we had sabotaged the white flour scheme. How did we? I do not want to go back again on the 30 per cent. reduction that was promised in the cost of living. They said that we were responsible for stopping people from buying the white flour at 7/- a stone. That was one of the ways that the cost of living was to be reduced by 30 per cent. I forgot to say, in my earlier calculations, that the poor were the only people buying it. The case made for it was that a number of people in this county could afford to pay that price for the flour, and in that way would help to save money to the Exchequer which could be spent in other ways. We had nothing to do with these things. There is no Deputy on this side taking any mean political advantage of this as Deputies opposite would have done if they were in opposition. Our only concern was to see that the cost of living would not go higher. Despite all the promises, the cost of living did go up two points and, in the case of certain things, three points. I do not see any sign of it coming down.

I hope that we will have some assurance from the Minister for Finance that some of the promises that were made are going to be put into operation. I also ask him to say something to relieve the uncertainty that has existed during the last 12 months amongst decent industrialists in this country. They are citizens of this country, they have an interest in it, and they would like to see the country progressing economically and politically. Will the Minister try to save these people from slanderous and uncharitable statements by responsible members of the Government?

The reduction of the Army is still proceeding, although other countries adjoining ours do not seem to be so sure and are spending more on defence. However, we can carry on, I suppose, and depend on somebody else. That is possibly the unstable policy of the inter-Party Government. They do not know where they stand or what they are going to do.

One point I would like to refer to relates to agriculture. The Minister for Agriculture has spoken quite a lot about the £40,000,000 drainage scheme. We agitated for that for quite a long time in our Party. There are certain things that I have been up against in County Dublin. There are numbers of farms that have no water for cattle and numbers of farmers at certain times of the year have been put to inconvenience trying to get water.

That would more properly arise on the Estimate.

I merely want to remind the Minister of the need for these things.

Quite so, but it is not in order.

When I was listening to Deputy Cowan to-day I closed my eyes for one moment and concentrated on his remarks.

Meditated.

Yes, meditated. I thought I was listening to a sermon in the church. The Deputy reminded me of the Pharisee and the publican mentioned in the parable. Boys, he did the Pharisee to perfection. He whitewashed himself. He was the great fellow who never did anything wrong and we were the publicans on this side of the House. He prayed seven times a day, while we did not pray at all. I wonder the honourable Deputy would not get wise to himself sometimes. I will not follow him into various channels. It is about time he got wise to himself and stopped quoting from the Bible. He was not always anxious to do so.

I wonder if the Minister would consider giving grants towards parish halls. During the election campaign we were told that life in rural areas was so dull and depressing that people were running from the land. We were told they could not get away quickly enough and it was suggested that we could build parish halls. Labour Deputies, Clann Deputies and Fine Gael Deputies were talking in terms like that. Now they have an opportunity of asking their Minister for Finance to assist local authorities by giving grants for the erection of parochial halls. There are numbers of parishes that need such halls and they deserve some consideration. I will remind some Deputies here of the promises they made.

All the money is going to Córas Iompair Éireann, your bankrupt company.

It was your Government that bankrupted it.

You succeeded in making a very good job of it. In your short period of office you nearly put it off the rails. There are many complaints I could make about the inter-Party Government. I could recall many of the promises that the archangels of the Labour Party made to the workers. The Clann Deputies also made many promises. The Fine Gael Party are back to the same old game that they played prior to 1932. They are not concerned with unemployment. Where are the pictures we were shown prior to 1948 of the people going away in emigrant ships?

You must men the emigrants your Government were going to bring back.

In the 1948 election we were told a lot about the emigrant ships, but 40,000 persons left this country in the past year and we did not hear any protest from Deputies over there who promised to bring all the emigrants back.

That is a good one.

Fianna Fáil were to send for the emigrants.

Deputy Burke is waking up 16 years too late.

It is with much pleasure I note the concern of Deputy Burke because the members of Deputy O'Leary's Party and my Party have the good sense to unite to oppose what we recognise as the most dangerous enemy of the working classes. I am quite sure that it is because we did see fit to sink our differences and put out Fianna Fáil that he regrets so much to see us on the same side of the House. For a long time the leaders of his Party bewailed the fact that we could not sink our differences. We have now sunk them and we will continue to remain on this side of the House at least for another four years I note also the concern of his Party over unemployment. During the emergency what concern had they for the men who were forced to remain in this country and work under a standstill Order? At least under this Government those who are employed receive a decent wage and if we can not employ others we are honest enough to let them have an opportunity of getting a living somewhere else.

Deputy Burke's concern for the industrialists is, of course, obvious. It represents the concern of his Party for those who subscribed £70,000 in the last general election. He would be very foolish if he was not concerned over what the Tánaiste said about some of these boys. I do not like to hear the Tánaiste misquoted. Everybody knows that the Tánaiste referred to some of the industrialists. It is common knowledge that some of these industrialists did good by setting up industry in this country. There are quite a number of decent and honest industrialists but, as in all sections of the community, they also have their black sheep.

Deputy Burke referred to the fact that we promised to bring down the cost of living and that we failed to do so. If the cost of living did not go down it certainly did not go up. But wages went up under the inter-Party Government. The cost of living remained stationary and wages went up. That is tantamount to a reduction in the cost of living as the ordinary worker's wife realises when she is trying to feed her family.

The furore created by the cut in the road grant with the suggestion that it is causing unemployment is really amusing. If Deputy Burke is a member of a local authority—and I assume he is—he must be aware that from last November to the 1st of April not one penny of the road grant for 1949-50 could affect any unemployment during that period. It is the 1948-49 Estimate which is being worked out at the present moment. How then could any cut in the road grant for next year cause unemployment at the present time? We in the Labour Party are quite satisfied on the assurances of the Minister for Local Government and the Taoiseach that with the road grant cut there will still be full employment. We shall judge the inter-Party Government by the way in which that promise is kept. We are prepared to wait.

The public is the best judge as regards housing. How is it if, as Deputy Burke alleges, the Fianna Fáil Party had a good housing policy there are 60,000 houses urgently needed at the present time? Fianna Fáil were 16 years in office. Only eight of those years fell within the war period. What were they doing during the other eight years? I admit they did build houses but they did not build to the extent Deputy Burke claims. Surely, he does not expect us to do in one year what his Government failed to do in eight years. The present Minister for Local Government has won the admiration of the entire country because of the way in which he has tackled the housing problem and cut out the red tape to which Deputy Burke referred.

Deputy Burke spoke about unemployment and, though he did not specifically refer to turf, I assume that he was thinking of turf cutting. It came as a surprise to me last Monday to discover that in my county, as a result of five years' turf cutting, there was a debit balance of £11,000 which had to be met out of the rates. Surely, this Government could not keep on turf-cutting at a loss of £11,000 every five years—a loss which would have to be made good by the ratepayers. This Government believes that if an industry is uneconomic we should not ask the ratepayers, about whom Deputy Burke expresses so much concern, to foot the bill and then claim credit for it as the national policy of Fianna Fáil.

I wonder if the members of the Government realise the state of public opinion at the present time? I am afraid they do not. Furthermore, I am afraid they will not listen to any warnings which emanate from this side of the House. If they will not listen to us perhaps they might take heed of the warning which underlay the remarks of Deputy P.D. Lehane. He seems to have some idea —and he was honest enough to admit it —of the state of public opinion down the country with regard to the policy of the Government. The members of the Government would do well to note his remarks and heed the warning contained in them. There is a general air of uneasiness amongest all sections of the community. Business people are concerned because of the drop that has occurred in the volume of business over the past 12 months. The manufacturers are concerned, and rightly so, because of the remarks made by certain prominent members of the Government. The Tánaiste, the Deputy Leader of the Government, stated that some of these men should have been in dungeons, in gaols, behind the strongest walls that could be provided for them. The Government has all the machinery at its disposal now and if they think, as they now admit, that the number of profiteers in manufacturing and business circles is so limited why have they not brought up at least one of them and clapped him into the dungeon?

On what charge?

On the charge made by the Minister—profiteering.

Profiteering is not an offence, unfortunately.

What did the Tánaiste say they should be in gaol for if they are not guilty of an offence?

That is quite easily understood.

The spokesmen of the various Parties now forming the Coalition Government said during the general election that they were going to reduce the cost of living by 30 per cent., stop emigration and provide full employment. They have failed to do any of those things. It is no pleasure to us—it can be no pleasure to any Irishman—to see emigration still continue. While Fianna Fáil were in power they made a reasonably good effort to provide employment here at home for those people who might otherwise have had to emigrate.

Despite the difficult conditions which obtained during the many years in which Fianna Fáil were in power at least half of those who normally come of age and are suitable for employment were taken into work to the tune of 10,000 per year. Similarly, with regard to emigration; in the last year of the Fianna Fáil régime, 1947, we had reached the turning point despite all the propaganda hurled against us and in that year there was an inflow of between 11,000 and 12,000 people over those who left in 1947. A change of Government came and with it a change in the flow of population. Last year emigration reached colossal heights. That is regrettable. This is a matter on which all Deputies should concentrate in order to find a remedy. We in Fianna Fáil believed that the cure for unemployment lay in the development of our manufacturing industries. We were accused in the past by the then Opposition speakers of being industrially minded. That may be so. We were industrially minded because we believed that was the only way in which to stem emigration and provide employment at home. I put down a question recently with regard to my own constituency. I regret to notice in the reply that in each of the exchanges at Ennis, Kilrush, Ennistymon and Tullow there has been an increase in the numbers of unemployed this year as compared with 12 months ago. That is largely due, in my opinion, to Government policy. The first blow that was struck was when the hand-won turf scheme was abolished.

Who abolished that?

Go away out of that.

What did Deputy Davin say? I do not think it is in order to refer to another Deputy as a liar.

I did not say any such thing.

I did not hear the Deputy make that remark.

I said "Go away out of that."

I accept the Deputy's statement, but I thought he said something else. However, as I say, the first blow that was struck on the change of Government was the abolition of the hand-won turf scheme. That is already having its repercussion.

That had been struck.

In Ennis last week there was neither turf nor any other fuel available for the people and, when I put down a question in the Dáil this week, I was told by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that it was the business of the local fuel merchants. I hold it is the business of the Government to encourage people to produce native fuel rather than import foreign coal at 25/- per ton over and above the price charged to the people in England.

It is amusing to listen to some of the speeches made by Deputies in support of the Government. They seem all to pin their faith entirely on the Minister for Agriculture to tide them over their difficulties. When any question of unemployment is raised, we are referred to the £40,000,000 scheme. I regretted that while Deputy Rooney was speaking the other day the Minister for Agriculture did not happen to be present. I think, if he were present, for the first time in his life he would have blushed and I should like to see the Minister for Agriculture blushing. It would be one of the greatest miracles that could happen; it would even exceed many of the miracles attributed to the Minister by Deputy Rooney. But the Deputy forgot to mention the greatest miracle worked by the Minister for Agriculture. Six weeks after the Minister took office he boasted that the output of eggs had been doubled. Normally it takes three weeks for a chicken to be hatched out of an egg and I have yet to hear of a three weeks old chicken producing eggs. Yet the Minister claimed six weeks after taking office he had doubled the output of eggs. That was one of the achievements of the Minister for Agriculture. Some time subsequent to that he was described by the Taoiseach as the greatest Minister for Agriculture in Europe and another spokesman of the Government, Deputy Coburn, described him as the greatest Minister for Agriculture that this or any other country has ever known. There are others, even in Deputy Corburn's own county, who, though not differing from the Minister for Agriculture in political matters, have spoken of him as the greatest menace to agriculture that this country has ever known.

Deputy Rooney told us that the Government policy was having the approval of the people and he invited us to ask the people. The people were asked on one occasion to approve of that policy. The only opportunity that was presented to them was in East Donegal and Deputy Neal Blayney is the answer of the people of Donegal to the present Government policy. Even in industrial England at the present time, the Minister for Agriculture there is doing all in his power to induce the farmers to grow more wheat —in other words, to make England self-sufficient in regard to food, as far as it is humanly possible to do so. That is exactly what Fianna Fáil had been preaching and doing for 16 years but because of the prejudice of the Minister for Agriculture to that policy he has discouraged the growing of wheat here.

By giving producers 5/- per barrel more than ever Fianna Fáil gave them.

It was given before he ever came into office.

It was not.

He gave them nothing over and above what Fianna Fáil had outlined before they left.

"Outlined" is the word.

It was given.

We all remember listening to the Minister for Agriculture speaking from these benches when he said that he would rather be found dead in a field than growing beet or wheat or any of the other Fianna Fáil tomfoolery. I wonder does the Minister for Industry and Commerce remember him saying that?

I did not hear what the Deputy said.

I am surprised because the Minister for Agriculture usually speaks sufficiently loudly to be heard in all parts of the House.

I mean that I did not hear what the Deputy said.

I am sorry, but I do not want to repeat it. Amongst the other great achievements with which the Minister was credited by Deputy Rooney was that wherever he found land incapable of growing wheat when he took over, that land was now in such a fertile condition that we can now grow wheat in it. He forgot the fact that the land that was incapable of growing wheat in many cases was land that was maltreated by people who did not want to grow wheat, who continued to grow wheat in the same particular field year after year, through hatred of that policy and who were content to sacrifice that portion of their land rather than contribute to the production of food for the people. The Deputy also claimed that the live-stock population of this country had reached its lowest point in 1947 but he conveniently forgot to look up the records for 1948. According to the latest reports the number of milch cows fell during the year 1947 by 22,664 and the total drop in the live-stock population was 29,230. Yet Deputy Rooney tells us that we had the lowest live-stock population in 1947 but it was still lower in 1948, despite all the efforts of the greatest Minister for Agriculture that this or any other country has ever known.

I have previously stated that this £40,000,000 drainage scheme is supposed to provide employment for all the unemployed throughout the country. The Minister when questioned on the matter told us that it would be put into operation in eight months, in July. In answer to a question which I put down a few days ago, he told us that he hoped it would be put into operation in the entire Twenty-Six Counties within two years but in answer to a subsequent question put down by another Deputy he told us that it would be put into operation in 12 months from July. We should like to know definitely what is the exact time at which the Minister hopes to put this plan into operation and what is to happen to those who are awaiting employment meanwhile.

If the Minister looked into the matter in counties such as mine he would find that a reasonable claim could be made to place that county high in the order of priorities. The Minister will remember that last year, owing to the "fluke" epidemic, officers of his Department were sent down into West Clare to investigate the cause and to suggest remedies for the prevention of that disease. It is obvious to anybody who knows the conditions there that owing to the very high rainfall and the lack of drainage that district is liable to recurring epidemics of "fluke." One would imagine, therefore, that the Minister would have taken that into consideration when arranging the particular counties where this drainage scheme should first be put into operation. Another reason which might come to his mind is the fact that in that particular district a growing new industry, the production of seed potatoes, has been more or less paralysed through lack of a market this year. These and other matters are hitting the small producers very severely and one would expect that a Minister would take these matters into consideration when deciding where his policy should be implemented at the earliest possible date.

Another matter on which I should like to get some information is regarding the policy of the Land Commission towards Old I.R.A. men at the present time. It has been brought to my notice that in the few estates that have been divided in my constituency a number of Old I.R.A. men, suitable in every way to be given allotments on these estates have, for some reason which is not apparent to me, been cut out of the schemes. Men with good national service, with large families on small holdings adjoining these estates have been overlooked. It was the policy of Fianna Fáil when they were in power to give a preference, all other things being equal, to Old I.R.A. men over and above other applicants.

We were promised a big increase in forestry but, so far as my constituency is concerned at all events, there has not been a single acre of land acquired for forestry purposes during the past 12 months. If that policy operates throughout the country I am afraid there will be very little increase to be shown anywhere.

Tell us how much was acquired during the previous 12 months.

I cannot give the figures off-hand. The Minister is in charge of the Department which supplies these figures and he can very easily ascertain them. There certainly was more acquired in 1947. In 1948 not a single acre was acquired.

It was the same as the year before.

It may be more or it may not. I do not know. I have not got the figures by me. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is the responsible Minister to supply these figures. He can make inquiries.

I am quite satisfied that if they were to the Deputy's advantage he would have them.

I did not look them up but for the sake of information I will do so at the first available opportunity.

The last speaker we had from the Government side tried to belittle the efforts of Fianna Fáil with regard to housing. If the present Government does as well during their period of office to provide houses for the people they will have found a solution for the housing problem, difficult though it undoubtedly is and difficult though it has been. Despite the economic war and the world war during their period of office Fianna Fáil was responsible for the erection of not less than 140,000 houses. If the present Government does as well we shall all be very pleased for we shall have found a solution to one of the most difficult problems confronting our people.

Anybody speaking on this Vote on Account who would pick up the Book of Estimates for this year and, on the other hand, take the Book of Estimates for last year and compare the two sets of figures, £70,550,477 for last year and £65,460,570 for this year, and do a simple subtraction will find that the Minister for Finance has found it possible to decrease taxation by £5,113,900.

Actually, you collected our tax last year for the year before.

That policy in itself should get some consideration or some word of praise even from the Fianna Fáil benches. Instead, however, for the last two days we have had a series of grunts, growls, sneers, wails and scorn thrown at the Minister who, in spite of all the expenditure he has had to face, has still found it possible to lower the burden on the taxpayers of this country. We had Deputy Aiken setting the Fianna Fáil ball rolling. You would think that he, who by no means was a master of his art when he was Minister for Finance, should have some little word of praise or some bit of consideration for the effort that his successor was making in and the way he was carrying out a job that Deputy Aiken himself had failed completely to handle. I dare say that while Fianna Fáil exists in the fairly strong political bloc that it is they will always have hopes that they will some day cross the floor of the House again. I should like to remind them of the saying about the drowning man going under for the third time—hope starts to recede from him into the distance.

I should like to remind the people over there and in particular the ex-Ministers, especially Deputy Aiken, that while this side of the House is not moving one inch it is going further and further away from them every day they sit over there. After Deputy Aiken had given us his almost two hours' long lecture on everything nonsensical and after he had left out no single aspect of Government policy on which he could throw a slur—except of course his favourite topic of the gun men he has in Dundalk which he did not mention—we had another equally uninteresting lecture from his colleague, the former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dr. Ryan, who described the progress made and the efforts of our present Minister for Agriculture as being the most awful thing that ever was seen in any country. He went on to bewail and tell us how Deputy Dillon, the present Minister, had at last come back to the old Fianna Fáil policy of growing wheat and having more tillage but that the cost the country had to bear in order to educate Mr. Dillon to this policy was simply enormous. I would not blame any of the back benchers of Fianna Fáil who stand up and criticise the enormous cost they think it has been for Deputy Dillon to be retaught Fianna policy, as it were; but that Deputy Dr. Ryan, the famous Minister with the famous policy from 1932 to 1936, which cost the farmers almost £200,000,000 and which broke the backs of the small and big farmers alike, should stand up and speak of the cost of educating the present Minister for Agriculture as being enormous is something I cannot understand. The Minister for Social Welfare in his reply described very well the bleakness, the drabness and the dreariness of that Deputy's short term as Minister for Health and showed that nothing good came, or was ever likely to come from that Department while he was there.

The position then, however, was one of gaiety and sunshine compared with the results of the same Deputy's term— unfortunately for the country, a long term—as Minister for Agriculture, a term during which he taught us nothing but waste and extravagance and in which he succeeded in bringing down the morale of every farmer and reducing to a condition of decay life on the land. It was then that the first real flight from the land started because life on the land was so worthless that nobody wanted to remain on the land. Now he tells us that the cost of educating the Minister for Agriculture and getting him to return to Fianna Fáil policy has been enormous.

I have often been very sorry to have to admit that I did perhaps more than many of the Deputies opposite to put Fianna Fáil into power in 1932 and 1936. We have heard of their great tillage policy, but how is it that there are so many large farms and so many large farmers left in this country today who have never tilled an acre or never would till an acre without compulsion or until the Department inspectors were sent over their fences to make them till? If tillage were a profitable industry, there would be no necessity for compulsion on anybody to till, but tillage under Fianna Fáil was not profitable at any time and it was not wanted or encouraged until the pinch of hunger came and they decided it had to be carried out in 1941 and the subsequent war years. I come from the constituency where we have rarely seen a Departmental inspector, a constituency of small farmers, all of whom have to till in order to exist and who have taken conacre in an effort to provide sufficient food to live and to feed their live stock.

In the other counties, however, how many farmers are there who would till, unless they were forced to do so? I am not a great believer in the idea that compulsory tillage should be abolished in its entirety. I hold no brief, and I have no love, and do not pretend to have any love, for the rancher element in this country who devote their land entirely to the rearing of live stock and go in for tillage as a side-line, but the Minister for Agriculture at present, with the guaranteed price for wheat for five years, is doing as much as he can— it is not the ideal, but he is doing as much as he possibly can—to encourage wheat growing.

We have travelled widely across fields and over hedges in the debate on this Vote on Account. I am glad to notice that there are decreases in 33 of the Votes and increases in 31, and it is very consoling to know that such decreases as it has been possible to bring about in luxury expenditure have been brought about by the Minister. We see, on the other hand, that, despite decreased taxation, despite the fact that less money is demanded than in the previous year when the Estimates were prepared by the Party in opposition, it has been possible to make greater concessions to necessitous people and to provide for them the security and comfort which they would never have seen were it not that we had a change of Government. The mighty Fianna Fáil Government, the saviour of Éire and the Irish people, has now disappeared into insignificance and has been replaced by a Government of men who are tackling things in a systematic manner and making the best effort they can to give money only where money is needed, to give it to the old age pensioners, the widows and orphans and the blind pensioners and to increased workmen's compensation and the various other directions in which it is necessary to give it.

When this debate started, I was ridiculed to some extent by the former Minister for Finance because I was inclined to laugh at his contribution. He asked what I was laughing at and I brought him back to the time when, in opposition, he told the people that a Budget of £22,000,000 was excessive, and that, if Fianna Fáil were returned to power, this country would be run comfortably on £10,000,000 or £11,000,000. It is most amusing to think of the changes which have taken place. It is all very well for Deputies on all sides of the House to come in here and talk as the legislators of the people. I have every encouragement for the efforts of the present Government to carry out the policy it has set out on in the face of difficult opposition, in the face of an Opposition who have nothing in mind other than to get back to power by hook or by crook and who use methods which are scurrilous and slanderous in an attempt to pin on this Government faults of which it is not guilty. I say with determination that while this Government is making this effort it will have my support and vote, but when it fails in its duty or sits down on the job my vote will not follow it any further. In Fianna Fáil we can look for no alternative, and if in years to come we have to look for an alternative to this Government we will have to look for something more progressive.

Start a Party of your own.

Not maybe a Party of my own, but a Party having nothing of the calibre of Dr. Ward in it, a Party small but definitely clean, which is something for a small Party to boast about.

The Government must realise that there are a few Departments which are by no means up to scratch as far as administration is concerned. There is considerable unemployment in the country and too much emigration. There is no use in saying that the Government does not realise that, because it has been brought to its notice very often from all sides of the House and the men who form the Cabinet of the country are very well aware that too many people are leaving it. We want to know once and for all if it is possible to provide work to keep the young people at home. I am very particular about the way in which emigration is being handled because I come from a constituency where, in North Mayo and West May in particular, emigration has been an eyesore for the past 50 years. The old Cumann na nGaedheal Government failed to do anything about it; the Fianna Fáil Government likewise failed and the present Government up to the present time has not succeeded in doing anything about it either. There is no use at all in saying, as Deputy Aiken has said, that we are sitting here as mute as mice. I think it was Deputy Traynor who said that we were following the policy—the policy set out by Fianna Fáil—of the back-benchers trudging in to vote irrespective of what issue was before the House. I, for one, will never be accused of anything like that and, while I talk in this House, the Government will get the praise or the abuse it deserves irrespective of whether it likes it or not.

Unemployment is a serious problem and the fact that there are 80,000 on the register is a red light, a danger signal, for any Government and must be considered. I should like to quote Deputy Lemass speaking on the 3rd of March, 1949, on a motion of Deputy Connolly regarding the natural resources of our country. Deputy Lemass is one of the few intelligent men—one of the few intelligent ex-Ministers at least—on the Fianna Fáil side. He is a man whom I always admired because he was outspoken and frank whatever he had to say. He did his best to make an excuse if he was in a tight corner or to explain any failure. I quote from column 923 of the Dáil Debates of the 3rd March:

"I do not believe that the 80,000 people who are on the live register are in fact all available for work and, to that extent, the register exaggerates the number of unemployed."

On column 924 he says:

"My recollection is that it showed that from one-quarter to one-third of the persons on the register were physically or mentally incapable of continuous employment; from one-quarter to one-third of the remainder were capable only of clerical work and certainly could not be usefully employed upon the type of work usually available under Government schemes; and that the actual number of persons that could be taken off the register by an expansion of Government or local authority activities of a constructional kind did not represent more than one-third, or from one-third to 40 per cent., of the total register."

There is the statement of the ex-Minister for Industry and Commerce who at least, as I have said, know what he was talking about. Even with that, however, there should not be so much unemployment, so many people who could be gainfully employed on reconstruction work or on work of national development. I welcome the announcement which the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Local Government have made in an effort to solve unemployment, particularly as both of those Ministers have signified their intention that drainage is to get first considerations in their schemes. The Minister for Local Government has told us that in a short Bill which is to be introduced in the near future he intends to carry out drainage schemes as a link between the National Arterial Drainage Act and the Minor relief schemes. They will absorb a large number of people either in drainage or in the reclamation of land and we can certainly say that that is something of benefit and of use to the country. Let us talk until Tib's Eve, but we must admit that when our agricultural production declines we will not have national prosperity. We have tried to establish industries in the country and have tried to put industry on a par with agriculture, but we have found out after 20 years that this cannot be done. While industry can and must be used to give employment to people, we cannot at any time neglect the fact that agriculture is our basic national industry.

As well as giving employment, I am glad to say that these schemes to be inaugurated by the Minister for Agriculture and by the Minister for Local Government will be a considerable help in that direction. I am sorry, however, that there has been so much delay. I do not know why some brave Minister cannot at some time cut through all the red tape which has held back schemes for the last 25 years. I am in full agreement with Deputy Cowan when he says that something will have to be done about that pretty quickly as people are inclined to get impatient when there is delay in producing necessary schemes. A scheme is talked about but then it is two or three months before it is brought into effect. It should be possible for Ministers or Deputies who are directly responsible to the people who elected them to see that quicker progress is made and faster methods are used to put into operation the means of employing and assisting our people. If Ministers cannot do that, they can be assured that the people will no longer support them. The ruination of the two Governments which have gone was their worthlessness and slowness in handling situations that cropped up from day to day.

I welcome an agricultural policy of greater national drainage schemes, but at the same time the Minister must know that there is no use in draining land when the outfall from that land is not also drained. If the two Ministers can sit side by side and come to an agreement, if both schemes can go hand and hand, they could do an immensity of good, both in the provision of employment for people who are capable of construction of work and in the value which the drainage will be to the country. Of course, it is possible at all times to employ men. If the Government so decided, they could employ 10,000, 15,000 or 20,000 men tomorrow on some scheme which would have no use or benefit. It would only absorb the unemployed for the time being without giving any profitable results. Many schemes carried out by the last Government were of that kind. You could, for instance, lay down 60 feet wide trunk highways from one end of the country to the other and spend £40,000,000 or £50,000,000 on that work in the next ten years. In that way we could employ all the men who need employment, but there are things much more essential than schemes such as these. I am glad to see that the aim of the Government is to establish schemes of employment which will provide useful work and be of advantage to the country. By the scrapping of some of the schemes by the previous Government they have done something very essential.

There is one Department in which I am particularly interested, because a Deputy must look to the needs of the people who are his immediate neighbours and to the people who send him here. He must look after their interests. I am referring to the Department of Lands. I will say this, and the Opposition can go round the country and make whatever capital they like about it, that the Land Commission has done absolutely nothing in the last year. There has been too much of a cry about land settlement for the past 40 or 50 years. There has been too much talk about the division of ranches in the midlands and in the congested counties and the establishment of as many people as possible on these lands. Anybody who has taken the trouble to go into the matter knows that there is not sufficient land for everybody who wants land and is willing to work it. But there are lots of ranches and farms which are derelict or which are set in grazing to chain ranchers, and while those are there people are definitely being denied the right to live in this country. We have many thousands of congested and small farmers in the County Mayo and along the western seaboard. After 25 or 26 years we find that nothing has been done to find a solution of that problem. Something is wrong somewhere.

The present Minister for Lands, who is a colleage of mine, has the best intentions in the world. Every Deputy, whether he be Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Clann na Talmhan, who comes from west of the Shannon is anxious to see the ranches divided. I have listened time and again to Fianna Fáil Deputies, when they were on this side of the House, Deputies like Deputy O'Rourke, Deputy Beegan, Deputy Walsh, Deputy Moran, Deputy Ruttledge and Deputy Kilroy who represent western constituencies, speaking of the unsatisfactory manner in which the Land Commission was carrying on. I am sorry to have to say that for the past year the activities of the Land Commission have been far below what we expected or what we would like to see. I will say this to the Minister for Lands and to the Government, because when we talk to one Minister we talk to them all, that if they do not put a better spurt in the Land Commission or scrap that body and establish something new and find some system of ending once and for all this rural slum problem, they will be failing in their duty to the people who live in the congested areas.

Now we come to another Department in regard to which the Government have the best intentions and their predecessors had the best intentions, the Department of the Land Commission that deals with forestry. The County Mayo is as far behind in forestry at present as it was 100 years ago. A puny, futile effort is being made to get land which is unsuitable for agriculture and which would be suitable for forestry. But nothing has been done because of the red tape which surrounds the Department of Forestry as well as the Department of Lands. They are very cautious and very careful not to go one-sixth of an inch beyond the regulations which guarantee fixity of tenure, free sale and all that. I say to the Government that unless they move faster in connection with the work of these two Departments the support of some western Deputies which has been given to them so loyally for the past year may not be given so freely in the future.

I am also glad to see that the Minister for Finance has decided to bring about a reduction in the Estimate for the Army. An army is a pretty expensive plaything in any country in times of peace. The maintenance of an army up to the standard which perhaps we should like to see would mean denying other sections of the community money for necessary schemes. Since I came into this House I have tried to make Ministers realise that there has been too much expenditure on the Army. I should like to congratulate the Minister for Finance on the effort he has made to bring about a reduction in the Army expenditure.

We have had contentment and peace in this country for the past 12 months. The Military Tribunal is a thing of the past. There are no more men in underground dungeons, almost without clothes. Men who had been denied the light of day for three or four years are now free and are good citizens. While the Government is not by any means making the progress that the more progressive of the younger Deputies on this side of the House would like to see, we must admit that they have had considerable difficulties thrown in their way and that their efforts are nearly as good as we would expect them to be.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again on Tuesday, 29th March.
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