Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 May 1949

Vol. 115 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Vote 31—Fisheries (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy Dr. Ryan).

Mr. Allen

I was addressing myself last night to the problem which would arise in providing a market for fish if we developed our deep-sea fishing potentialities. There is no doubt that if the State is prepared to invest a large amount of capital in deep-sea fishing the income to the country from that source could be very great. We then, however, have the problem of marketing that fish and encouraging our people to use it, otherwise it must be exported. Any Government deciding to invest large capital sums in organising such a fishing fleet would be faced with the problem of whether or not it would be an economic proposition with a reasonable prospect of success. For one reason or another, our people, in our time at any rate, are not a fish-eating people to any extent. It is oftentimes difficult to provide them with even the small amount of fish they need. During the past spring I believe that fresh fish was oftentimes very scarce. Provincial towns very often failed to get supplies of fresh fish when they needed it.

The canning industry may hold out great possibilities. It may be a solution for the problem, provided we develop a trawler fleet; it may be the means of disposing of the resulting catches with advantage to the country. Canning, I believe, is being done in a small way at present and there is no reason why it should not be developed. We import a large amount of canned fish. I do not know what the value of it is. We import tinned salmon from the dollar area. Could we replace those imports with canned fish of our own? Would it be economical to can our own salmon? Would it be better business?

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

The fish sold as Canadian salmon is not salmon at all, by the way.

Mr. Allen

It is coloured like salmon anyway. There is a certain type of fish that the Minister was always very interested in and probably he could colour that kind of fish and can it. If he canned all the "cod" that he called into existence here in the last dozen years we would have a very remunerative export trade for many years. I suggest that the Minister for the future might can all that cod that he introduced into this House. The result of canning all that type of fish would be of immense advantage to this nation.

I hope the Minister will consider the question of providing extra grants for those authorities who are anxious to improve our small fishing harbours. That is an important matter. Very much good could be done by providing those authorities with substantial grants either through the Department of Fisheries, the Department of Finance or the Office of Public Works. The Department of Fisheries has always been the Cinderella of Government Departments—a poor, begging Department which could not spend a shilling without the authority of two or three other Departments. I hope the Minister will change that. If he will do that he will be doing a lot of good work for inshore fishermen who depend on the small harbours. They badly need capital improvement and if local authorities were given some encouragement by the Minister to spend some money on the capital improvement of the small harbours around the coast nothing would give better results. It would help those inshore fishermen very much.

Mr. Cogan

Since we are starting afresh this morning I think it would be no harm to sum up briefly a few points that were made in this debate. I want to underline the fact that this debate has been conducted in a much better spirit than the debate on agriculture. I think the present attitude is due to the manner in which the Minister introduced the debate.

Notwithstanding the fact that in this debate we have not developed much of the Party spirit there has been a very sharp clash of opinion, perhaps, in regard to policy, a much deeper clash than we had on the agricultural policy. The question has been proposed from the outset as to whether we can develop our deep-sea fishing industry and at the same time preserve inshore fishing. The Minister has come down very definitely on the viewpoint that we cannot develop those two sides of the fishing industry. I think that it would be well if the Minister gave close attention to the views which were very ably expressed by Deputy Sir John Esmonde and by Deputy Seán Collins who spoke in the Minister's absence. They made a very sound case for the development of deep-sea fishing and made it very clear that it would not conflict in any way with the preservation of inshore fishing. I think it will be admitted that if we were to encourage trawler fishing by private enterprise it would clash very definitely with inshore fishing. There is, however, the alternative of State enterprise in this connection. I think it is on the lines of State enterprise that deep-sea fishing will have to be developed. Of course, there are a lot of very serious considerations in this respect and Deputy Allen was inclined to be extremely cautious in expressing an opinion. I think, however, it cannot seriously be suggested that there is no future for deep-sea fishing for this country. We are as well placed as any other country which has developed that industry. It may be said, however, that a State Department is not a very efficient instrument to develop a highly complex industry of this kind. However, it must be remembered that State enterprise—if you like to call it enterprise—had to be responsible in many countries for the building up of fighting fleets which in wartime proved themselves very efficient. If careful consideration is given to this problem, if the best type of trawlers are purchased and if the whole industry is started on firm and sound foundations there is no reason why this industry cannot become a very valuable one. It is a matter which cannot be lightly dismissed. I am sure the Minister has no intention of lightly dismissing it, that every aspect of the question will be considered and that no undue time will be lost in coming to a definite decision. The arguments that are used against the State launching out into trawler fishing were used I think to a great extent against the establishment of a mercantile marine in the pre-war years. I think the Government then hesitated perhaps a little too long. They found that it would have been better to have adopted that policy. I am urging a viewpoint now upon the Minister to take his courage in his hands and see if it is possible to get this industry established.

In logic there does not seem any reason why any nation situated so favourably as ours should confine itself to the resources of the sea in the immediate vicinity of the coasts. There is no reason why we should not launch out as far afield as other nations have done. It may be said that they have had a considerable advantage over us in being long engaged in this industry but at the same time we will have the advantage of starting afresh with the most modern equipment. Like Deputy Brennan, I represent a maritime constituency. I have discussed these matters with the various people interested. Being a farmer I have no direct knowledge of the fishing industry, but I have heard the view frequently expressed by people in the industry that the Government should do something about the three-mile limit. They should take some initiative in the matter to get it extended, if possible. Another suggestion which I have heard made is that, as far as bays and inlets of the sea are concerned, some modification of the three-mile limit should be secured so that while we might be confined to a three-mile limit as from the headlands or outstanding points of the coast we might be given a more extended limit as regards bays and inlets. I do not know whether it would be possible to secure that or not. It might be an advantage which would not affect very much the east coast, in which I am concerned, but it might be a great advantage on the western coast.

One of the big problems which affect nearly all harbours on the east coast is the silting up of the harbours. I was in agreement with the Deputy who suggested that this problem should be considered from the point of view of seeing if something could be done to overcome permanently this difficulty. I was told in regard to Arklow that some alteration of the current by the provision of a barrier outside the harbour would prevent silting. I do not know whether that is possible or not but I think it is a problem that should be seriously considered because an enormous amount of money is being expended in trying to keep the harbours clear.

There is also a sort of permanent occupation for Deputies and other local representatives in making representations to the different Departments to have these harbours kept clear. It might deprive them of their employment if this difficulty was overcome, but at the same time I think it would save a considerable amount of expense, worry and loss. It is an extraordinary thing that, while you can have any Sunday paper at breakfast on a Sunday morning, it is very difficult to get fish in our inland towns. Provided you had a fairly regular supply of fish, I think there should be no difficulty in providing a fast fleet of vans to distribute the fish to our most inland towns. With a speedy distribution system, I think profiteering in fish should be ruthlessly eliminated. That is to say, the consumer should not have to pay considerably more for his fish than the price secured by the producer.

I think the Minister should not allow himself to be too strongly influenced by the very conservative opinions that have been expressed as between deep-sea and trawler fishing, and that he should face the matter courageously. If he does, I think he will discover that there is a great opportunity for this country, one which, if he takes advantage of it, will redound to his credit.

Mr. McGrath

I want to say a few words on the Estimate in regard to the consumer and the retailer of fish. That is a matter that has cropped up very often in the City of Cork because of the supply of fish and the price of it. I understand that the prices of fish are controlled, according to the different varieties, and are 50 per cent. higher than the prices in England. I think that should not be so, and that the Minister should endeavour to have some regularity as regards supplies of fish. He will understand that it is very difficult for retailers to keep on staff in view of the fact that one week they have plentiful supplies, and in the next week none at all. Very often people in Cork would be without fish on Fridays were it not for the fact that some of those foreign trawlers get disabled and have to come into Cork for repairs. Even when these disabled trawlers do arrive, recurring difficulties seem to arise in the matter of obtaining supplies from them. I have visited the Department of Fisheries on a couple of occasions and I must say the officials I met there were the most courteous that I have met in any Department. They put up to me certain difficulties that they have to get over. First of all, I believe they have to get the consent of the people across the water, and, secondly, the point was made to me that the demand in Cork would not be sufficient if a whole cargo were taken. The skippers will not sell part of a cargo, and take the other half of it back to England. Neither will they go and get a fresh catch and throw out the fish already there. These were some of the points put up to me.

I think something should be done to increase the cold storage facilities, at least in places near big cities, where the fish could be kept in cases such as I have mentioned, or in cases where you had big catches or a glut of fish. It seems ridiculous to me that fish, which is caught off the coast of Cork by these English trawlers, should be taken to England and then be transported back to Cork for sale. That is a thing that I cannot understand. Surely, some means should be found whereby we could get the fish ourselves and sell it through the country.

It seems extraordinary that in an island country like this we are always neglecting this particular industry. The Minister and his predecessors have always made the case that they have to protect the inland fisheries. I think that the question of the inland fisheries has been exaggerated somewhat. Even if we suppose that they provide employment for 2,000 men, I think it would be found on investigation that a lot of these men are only employed part-time at fishing.

Mr. Dillon

There are 10,000, if you include the part-time.

Mr. McGrath

Whatever the number is, I suggest that those men have other occupations besides fishing.

Mr. Dillon

They have.

Mr. McGrath

It should not be impossible, I think, to devise some means of protecting them. Anyway, that is no reason for making the people in cities like Cork and Dublin do without fish for six months of the winter. These people do not get 50 per cent. of what they require, and they do not get 20 per cent. of a supply of popular fish, such as plaice and hake.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is a brave man to say that with Deputy Friel sitting beside him.

Mr. McGrath

I am not a bit afraid of Deputy Friel. I think I am a bit heavier than he is. At any rate, we cannot get regular supplies. You can not educate people to eat fish if you only give it to them once a week or once a fortnight. I believe, like the last speaker, that, if the fish were sent into our inland towns and were distributed quickly and regularly, there would be a very big market for fish, and we would not have the difficulty that we are experiencing as regards supplies at present. The Minister should seriously contemplate the position of the deep-sea trawlers which come from Spain, France, England and other places. We should find some means of canning the fish. I would make a special appeal to the Minister to try and do something with a view to having regularity in the supplies of fish and of trying to overcome the difficulty of importing fish when there is a likelihood of fish being scarce. It is generally known, a few days beforehand, that fish will be scarce. We know that fish cannot be imported except under licence. When there is a possibility of a scarcity of fish, I think the Minister should take steps to ensure that the people will not have to go without a supply of it.

Mícheál Óg Mac Phaidín

Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá ar son iascairí na nGael agus traoslú don Aire agus mo bheannacht a thabhairt don Mheastachán atá rómhainn.

Tá cruthú againn ar an mheastachán seo go dtuigeann an tAire gnaithe na hiascaireachta níos fearr ná aon Aire chuaigh roimhe agus beidh muinín as dá réir.

Bhéarfaidh seo misneach agus uchtach don uile iascaire ar chladaigh na hEireann. Beidh fhios acu go bhfuil Aire anois acu a bhfuil a chroí san obair, fear dúthrachtach a dhéanfas a dhícheall feabhas agus biseach a chur ar tionscal na hiascaireachta, más féidir a dhéanamh.

Tá lúcháir orm go bhfuil an tAire i leith iascairí cois chladaigh agus nach bhfuil dúil aige sna tráiléirí móra a théas ar an doimhneacht.

Fóirfidh seo go maith do iascairí Dhún na nGall agus an Iarthair a bhfuil na bádaí beaga acu. Is maith is fiú cuidiú leis na hiascairí seo, bádaí oiriúnacha d'fháil dóibh agus gléasraí dá réir.

Beidh sin mar dhualgas ar an Comhlucht Iascaigh agus tá súil agam nach mbeidh siad chomh fadálach mallthriallach san obair seo feasta nuair atá an tAire seo ar a gcúl.

Tá suim mhór agam fhéin san cheantar sin cois farraige i nDún na nGall ó na Dúnaibh go Bun Drobhais. Is é sin an áit iascaireachta is fearr ar chóstaí na hEireann. Gan amhras tá an cladach garbh agus beannaí árda ann, cuid acu dhá mhíle troigh ón fharraige. Ach imeasc na mbeann agus na nalt fiain seo tá cuan beag anseo agus ansiúd a bhfuil cabhlach iascairí ann.

I mórán de na cuanta beaga so níl slip ná céidh ná caoi iasc a chur i dtír nó bádaí a tharraingt on fharraige. Seo obair do oifigí na Roinne agus ba chóir go ndéanfadh siad scrúdú air agus slipeanna agus céanna a chóiriú ar an taoibh sin den chósta.

Is fada mé ag iarraidh ar an Roinn deis a chur ar na slipeanna ag Malainn Bhig, Malainn Mhór, Ros Beag, Ros Eoin, Gort Sáile, Bun Beag agus Oileán Uaigh agus áiteach eile a bhfuil na hiascairí i gcónaí i gcontúirt a mbáthadh.

Má nítear seo dóibh agus má chuirtear bádaí agus gléasraí ar fáil dóibh ar dhíolaíocht réasúnta beidh guí agus beannacht na niascairí leis an Aire go deo.

Mr. Browne

When the Department of Fisheries Estimate was before the House last year, I brought to the notice of the Minister some complaints from my constituency. My main complaint was the condition of the piers and slips all around the Mayo seaboard. At the time the Minister promised me that he would give the matter consideration subject to this, that it would be raised before the local authority. In response to the sympathy that I got from the Minister at the time, I raised this matter with the local authority. The main trouble, so far as I can see, is with regard to cost. The maintenance of these piers and slips is a very considerable item. I am quite satisfied that the initial cost will be substantial and that the maintenance will constitute a big responsibility, whatever authority will have to undertake it.

So far as the piers and slips on the Mayo seaboard are concerned, the position is such that the fishermen are finding it almost impossible—as a matter of fact it is positively dangerous— to carry on fishing. The suggestions put forward by different speakers with regard to markets are all right in their own way, but unless the fishermen along that seaboard get proper slips or piers, so as to ensure safety for them when they are landing their catches, I cannot see the use of arranging markets.

The area with which I am concerned covers all around the coast of Achill and the north coast of Mayo until you reach Killala. In all that area, so far as I know, there are only one or two piers under the control of the council. Darby's Point is one and the second one is on the northern side. They are the only places out of a total of ten landing points. If any of those places were inspected by any Deputy here he would see the condition of the slips and piers and he would come to the conclusion that they could be improved. They were erected years ago at a huge cost. It would seem that during all those years maintenance work was not carried out and the result is that some of the piers are practically washed away. I was in Dooega in Achill and you could see the foundation of the beautiful pier there. It must have been erected at a huge cost. It is now in such a state that half of it has been washed away. That is largely due by the lack of some responsible authority in the matter of maintenance. If some authority—let it be the Department of Fisheries or the local authority—did maintenance work, the pier would not have deteriorated. No maintenance work was carried out, the pier was left derelict, and now a large portion of it is in the Atlantic.

I realise that the cost of reconstructing these landing places will be a big thing, but nevertheless I think the Minister would be well advised to have them attended to. This matter could be tackled in the same manner as he is facing the problem of arterial drainage, field drainage and reclamation. All the money provided for these schemes will be in the nature of a full cost grant. I feel the Minister should introduce some scheme by which all ports, harbours, slips and piers will receive similar attention. The construction or reconstruction work should be on the same basis of expenditure, and then it will be the responsibility of some authority to undertake the maintenance. That can be arranged, whether it is the local authority or the Department will have the responsibility of maintenance. Once you get the piers put into a safe condition for the fishermen, the question of maintenance will be only a minor one and we can get some Department, perhaps the Department of Fisheries, or the local authority, to take over the maintenance responsibility.

So far as the fishing industry is concerned, we will never get anywhere until we give the fishermen piers and slips suitable to allow them to get their boats into the sea, make a safe return journey, and be able to land their fish. As regards deep-sea fishing and inshore fishing, I believe that deep-sea fishing should not arise for the present. What the fishermen want is the inshore fishing, because it is from that they derive their livelihood. Deep-sea fishing is one of the things that I feel the Government can hold over for the present. They must concentrate on inshore fishing. The Minister indicated that there are, roughly, 10,000 people engaged in the inshore fishing industry. That is a considerable number and they are all making their living from the sea. If these people are provided with suitable piers and slips and the other necessary requirements for fishing folk, I believe the industry will reach such a standard that soon there will be no shortage of fish in any part of the country.

In my constituency the fish coming into the towns come from the City of Dublin. A small quantity comes from Donegal. Yet we have plenty of fish in the waters all round our coast. I believe that if local fishermen had proper equipment they would take advantage of the fishing industry. There would be a ready sale for fish in the towns and there should be no shortage of fish in any town.

I do not agree with the suggestion that the fishing industry should be nationalised. The same freedom should obtain in the fishing industry as obtains at the present moment in agriculture. I believe that if fish were available fish shops would be established in the towns and the owners of them would make themselves responsible for providing a supply of fish for domestic consumption. That would provide a good local market and any surplus fish could be transferred to the cities.

I understand that about 15 years ago a survey was made of the slips and piers on the western seaboard and around Mayo. That survey was carried out by an engineer from the Office of Public Works. He was accompanied by the engineer appointed to the Mayo County Council. Now some recommendations must have been made as a result of that survey but nothing has been done during the past 15 years. I would ask the Minister to trace that survey now because I think the information it contained would probably be very useful. These two engineers covered all the ground as far as this area is concerned.

I have no intention of casting any reflection upon the Department of Fisheries or the officials connected with the fishing industry here. Both have given good service to the people. Any time grievances were aired steps were taken to remedy them by these officials. I want to congratulate the people responsible in the Department of Fisheries and elsewhere for the excellent service they have given.

Mr. Gilbride

There are one or two points with which I would like to deal. I did not intend to intervene in this debate but last Friday night I happened to attend a lecture in Sligo Town Hall given by Mr. Carrigan, the man who is in charge of Marshall Aid here. He told us that he was amazed to learn that our Government wanted dollars to import fish. I must admit that the people were amazed too. That is the position however. Nothing will be gained by either criticising or applauding that situation. Our approach must be made in an endeavour to find a remedy for it.

Mr. Dillon

Who says the Government wants dollars to import fish?

Captain Cowan

Mr. Carrigan said it.

Mr. Dillon

The decent man—he is rambling.

Mr. Gilbride

I am merely repeating what I heard. Fish has been imported to the tune of——

Mr. Dillon

What kind of fish?

Mr. Gilbride

Both dried fish and fresh fish—to the tune of £208,374.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is rambling.

Mr. Gilbride

The Deputy is not rambling. The position is that fish has been imported.

Mr. Dillon

Dried fish?

Mr. Gilbride

Both sorts of fish. That is the position. We should set our minds to finding a remedy for it. In my opinion as far as the west coast is concerned the remedy lies in two directions. The fishermen want both boats and gear. The men are not inclined now to go out in the little boats that they used in the past. They are not prepared to risk their lives in these boats. I think steps should be taken to supply them with proper boats. The second remedy arises in relation to piers. In Sligo alone there are upwards of 30 small piers. What they were built for is a mystery because they are absolutely useless. I will give you one instance. At Enniscrone 20 or 25 boats used to come into the pier there at one time. When the fishermen came in for their dinner they had to haul the boats up 100 yards from the water. Despite the fact that there was a pier there, there was no place where the men could leave their boats while they were at their dinner.

Mr. Dillon

And they hauled them up 100 yards?

Mr. Gilbride

They used to.

Captain Cowan

It would have been easier to send the dinner down to the boats.

Mr. Dillon

Surely it would have been.

Mr. Gilbride

If the Deputy wishes to make a joke of it!

Captain Cowan

I am not making a joke of it. It is not a matter upon which I would joke.

Mr. Gilbride

The people of Enniscrone formed a town development committee. They are now excavating the rock and selling that rock to the county council. When that is done they will have between £3,000 and £4,000 worth of work done. Deputy Roddy and I approached the Department of Fisheries and the Board of Works with a view to getting a loan in order to finish the job. I ask the Minister, in appreciation of the work these men are doing and in order that other people along the coast may be encouraged by their example, to consider this scheme and give a loan to these people. On Saturday last the Sligo County Council passed a resolution expressing the opinion that it would be far more useful to spend dollars on the development of piers and in supplying boats and gear to fishermen than to spend money in importing fish. These are the only points I wish to make. I would again ask the Minister to give the development scheme at Enniscrone favourable consideration in appreciation of the work these men have done and as an example to other people along the coast.

Captain Cowan

I wish to say a few words on behalf of the consuming public in Dublin City. The position, as I understand it, is that the seas surrounding the country are teeming with fish but we have considerable unemployment amongst fishermen all around our coasts. Supplies of fish to Dublin City are inadequate and irregular and fish offered for sale in Dublin to the consumer is too dear. That is the problem that confronts the City of Dublin, that supplies are inadequate, irregular and too dear. In actual fact, fish is not within the purchasing capacity of the ordinary person at all. I am not in a position to analyse the disparity between what the fishermen get and what the consumer has to pay but complaint is made that the fishermen are not being paid a sufficient price for their catches. The fact would then appear to be that somewhere in between the fishermen and the consumer, excess profits are being made. I want to see the fishing industry made a success and, as far as Dublin is concerned, that success can be brought about by the provision of adequate supplies of fish at reasonable cost but supplies to the shopkeepers must be regular. Fish is an important item of food and as fishing is such an important industry, I think it is the business of the section of the Department dealing with fisheries to endeavour to improve the supply and the distribution of fish.

I was very pleased to hear the Minister refer to canning and I hope that his efforts in that direction will be a success. Some time ago it was usual to get a very nice kipper but in recent years the quality and the taste of the kipper have changed and the complaint in regard to it is that instead of being properly kippered, smoked or dried, whatever the process is, it is dyed.

Mr. Dillon

There was a lot of correspondence on that in the London Observer.

Captain Cowan

I have not read it in the London Observer but the complaint is that these kippered herrings are dyed to give them an appearance. The result is that they will not last. They go bad very quickly and the taste is affected.

Mr. Corry

Would that depend on what a fellow had the night before?

Captain Cowan

I do not think it has anything to do with what he had the night before; in fact he might not notice the taste the following morning if he had a bad night. I think that is something that might be inquired into by the Minister and if it can be remedied, as I think it can, then it should be remedied. On the vexed question of inshore fishermen and deep-sea fishing, I can see the problem that confronts the Minister and the sense of the case that has been made by the Minister. If there are 10,000 people along our coasts who live mainly or to a large extent by fishing, if their livelihood were affected by the establishment of a deep-sea fishing industry. I think it would be a disaster. For that reason, I think the two conflicting points of view should be examined further before any step is taken that may lead to further unemployment along the coasts and to a very serious problem in regard to the maintenance of those people who will be denied whatever profits they now get from inshore fishing. I think it is a problem that must be approached in a sensible way. Probably the correct thing to do is to develop inshore fishing first to its full capacity, to provide all the boats and equipment that are needed, to ensure that a livelihood will be afforded these inshore fishermen, to provide proper means of rapid distribution of the fish and proper freezing facilities—in other words, to ensure proper marketing and proper distribution.

When I was a young lad, every Friday I used to see a cart coming to my part of the country—it went to every part of the country—in which there was fresh fish or a barrel of salted herring. Even in those days, over 30 or 40 years ago, there appeared to be a more satisfactory distribution of fish than at the moment. It is impossible to get fish now except in cities or in a few villages or towns throughout the country.

I think the Minister should concentrate, as he appears to be doing, on the provision of better fishing facilities and a proper system of distribution. If the Minister is successful in that, it will mean, as far as Dublin City and other cities are concerned, that there will be adequate and regular supplies of fish, and it should be possible, with a proper system of distribution and marketing, to bring down the price of fish so that it will be within the purchasing capacity of the ordinary person. Beyond that, I do not want to say anything further in this debate. Like all other problems that face the Minister and that face other Ministers, these are problems not of to-day or yesterday but problems of long standing. They just cannot be solved by a stroke of the pen, nor can they be solved by a debate in this House; it will take hard and continuous work. While the Minister and his Department are proceeding on the right lines towards the solution of that problem, we all should encourage them in every way we can. I think we can say that there has been some slight improvement since we discussed this Estimate last year and the very hopeful speech made by the Minister in moving his Estimate indicates that there will be a substantial improvement in the present year. I hope that that progress will continue and that this great fishing industry will be made a success.

Mr. Hickey

Every speech I have listened to yesterday and this morning is a repetition of what I have heard during the past ten or 12 years. I am rather disappointed to hear the Minister talking about safeguarding the inland fishermen. In view of his idea of mechanising agriculture, he will have to change his mind in regard to fishing in that direction, too. I can well understand the difficulties of fishing, and I do not suggest that we should start on a very big scale, but hearing all the complaints about foreign trawlers coming into our waters, I suggest that there is no reason why we should not have at least a dozen deep-sea trawlers to give the people of this country a supply of fish. I intended to send the Minister some letters from the Cork Examiner over the past few months complaining that the people of Cork have not a supply of fish. Ballycotton, Kinsale and Crosshaven have not a supply of fish for them and when the people of Cork cannot get a proper supply of fish I can imagine what the position is like in inland towns like Fermoy, Mallow, Castletownroche and other towns around the County Cork.

The fishing industry has been hidebound and if we were serious about it a very substantial sum would be set aside each year for the industry. I am not going to waste the time of the House, as the Minister must be fairly tired now of listening to speeches which are only a repetition of what he has heard during the past ten, 12 or 14 years, but I cannot see why we could not safeguard to a very great extent the livelihood of the inland fishermen. I should like to hear from the Minister when he is replying how far out the inland fisherman can go to get fish for the people of the country. I am not going to waste the time of the Minister or this House as there has been so much repetition, but I hope that the Minister in replying will give us some encouragement to think that there will be a decent supply of fish for the coming year.

Mr. Beegan

Not that I am any authority or have any knowledge of inland, inshore or deep-sea fishing, but, like Deputy Cowan and others. I believe that there is a home market for fish that has not up to now been fully catered for. It is very difficult to understand, despite the fact that we have had a native Government, the Sea Fisheries Association and all the rest, why it is that it is so hard to obtain fish now in the inland towns and rural areas, besides what it was 45 years ago. Like Deputy Cowan, I remember that fish, both fresh and salt, was available then on at least three days a week, while for the past 35 years—of course, two wars intervened—it is much more difficult to obtain it. That is one of the things of which I should like the Minister to give us some ex-plantation, particularly in view of the fact that transport has advanced to such a very great degree.

Perhaps part of the explanation is, as Deputy Gilbride and some of the other speakers mentioned, that fishermen have not had proper gear, but I believe that for a number of years past, anyway, fairly modern gear was made available in parts of the country and, seemingly, the results have not shown any great measure of success. I believe that in regard to agriculture our first duty is to supply as far as possible the home market and the same is true as far as fishing is concerned. While the Sea Fisheries Association may have done a considerable amount to help the fishing industry, I do not see that there has been any great advance in regard to distribution since the days of the old Congested Districts Board.

Piers and harbours have been mentioned and, as other speakers have said, three Departments of State have a certain responsibility. I do not think that should be so; I think it should all be confined to one Department.

As I stated at the outset, I know very little about inland, inshore or deep-sea fishing, but yesterday evening I listened to the speech made by Deputy Sir John Esmonde which, to my mind, was a very impressive speech. Seemingly he had gone into this matter very thoroughly and had gone to the trouble of getting figures and statistics regarding the fishing industry in other countries and comparing them with our own. He mentioned Belgium, where the fish tonnage in 1945 was eleven thousand and some hundreds, and by 1946—I think it was the deep-sea fishing business he had in mind—Belgium had more than doubled its tonnage despite the fact that it has, he said, 75 miles of shore as compared with thousands of miles here. He advocated, and I think rightly so if his figures are correct—and his ideas seem to be very sound—that a special separate Ministry be set up. I think there was nothing whatsoever wrong with that. I could never understand why the Fisheries Department was taken from Lands and put in with Agriculture. It may be that there is no very great difference between the Departments of Lands, Agriculture and Fisheries and that they all hang together, but if the possibilities are there to improve the industry to the extent set out by Deputy Esmonde, there should be a separate Ministry to deal with it.

As I stated on the Vote for Lands on various occasions, and also on the Vote for Agriculture, whatever may be the opinions of people regarding the relief of congestion, the division of land alone will not settle it. The proper thing is to try to establish industries in the congested sea-coast areas and for that purpose a separate Ministry would do a lot of good. It might be remarked that I am advocating an additional Minister. I am not doing any such thing.

Mr. Dillon

I thought the Deputy was.

Mr. Beegan

I am not advocating a separate Minister. I believe that, with the groundwork which has been carried out, both Health and Social Services could now be under one Minister and the other Minister could take over what is now regarded by all sides of the House as a very important industry, that of fisheries. I would like that point to be given consideration. If there is one thing no one can understand in rural Ireland, it is why, despite all the money that has been expended and despite the great advance in transport, it is so difficult now to procure either fresh or salt fish in the towns of rural Ireland.

Mr. Roddy

We never get fish in Sligo except when there is a surplus catch in Dublin or Donegal and by the time it arrives in Sligo sometimes it is not fit for human consumption. There are many fishing villages in the county where, up to a few years ago, a number of families derived a nice income from fishing. All that has practically ceased now, owing to the shortage of boats and gear. I make a special plea to the Minister for one little village in particular, quite near Sligo town, Mullaghmore. Up to ten years ago there were 20 families in this village engaged in fishing. They had a ready market for their fish in Bundoran seaside resort and in Sligo. Now that is all knocked on the head, owing to the lack of equipment.

I agree with the Minister as regards deep-sea fishing. It would be a mistake to develop it, as it would exterminate the inshore fishermen, on whose behalf I am speaking. They alternate between farming and fishing and must carry on both in order to exist. My colleague, Deputy Gilbride, mentioned Enniscrone. In this seaside place, fishing has been carried on for many years, but now the approach to the sea has become more difficult. At the moment, the development committee there are trying to provide a new harbour and have already made representations to the Fisheries Department, and I expect there will be good results.

Mr. O'Leary

I come from a place where the people, in my town down the Slaney, are dependent for their living on fishing. We have heard plain language in the speeches from the Opposition, that this industry has been let down. I think it has been let down in previous years by the previous Government. Deputy Esmonde and others were called to meet the fishermen of the Slaney some months ago and the request was that they be allowed out a month earlier to fish on the Slaney. The old fishermen of long experience impressed us all by the statement that the fish are running earlier to the rivers now than ten years ago. That is their contention. I remember, as far back as 1932, when Fianna Fáil were clamouring for power, Deputy Dr. Ryan promised that if Fianna Fáil were elected they would grant this concession. They were sadly dismayed and are still waiting for some Minister to grant the concession to let them in on the Slaney a month earlier. I understand that the privileged few are still holding the rails.

I agree with Deputy McQuillan and others with regard to people having the right to the river. I was down in Galway some months ago and a friend of mine brought me over to the Weir bridge. I looked down over the bridge and saw an abundance of fish in the river. I happened to try to go around and see a man who was fishing and playing a salmon. When I went to the bank, a man stopped me and told me it was private property and I could not even walk on the bank of the river. My friend told me I would have to pay £2 for a day's fishing and, if I caught three, I would have to give back two. I said: "Who gets the two?" He said: "Colonel ——." It is about time that all that was changed. Deputy Allen asked the Minister to can all the cod. I reverse it: I think the Fianna Fáil people have been trying to cod all they can as far as fishing is concerned. I live in a town where fish is a novelty. We never hear of it except occasionally when there might be a herring passing round in a car. There are several fishing villages around— Cahore, Courtown Harbour, Rosslare and Blackwater. These people are in a very bad way at the moment and I would like the Minister, in his reply, to give some information as to what his Department and his engineers have done on the inspection of Cahore, where the county council, as Deputy Allen said, have agreed to put up a certain amount of money. These are things which should be looked into, and I hope something will be done for this industry.

Surely, if we have £40,000,000 for land reclamation, we should have another few millions for fishing, to guard the lives of the people round the coast? I appeal again to the Minister to grant a concession to the fishermen on the Slaney, who have been agitating for a long time for it. I am told that it is not a matter of what the trawlers take, but what they kill, and the damage they do with their big gear. The Minister for Defence ought to protect the industry in some way, such as the provision of faster boats to chase these people away. Many small farmers along our coast are almost solely dependent on fishing and I trust the Minister will be able to give me some information with regard to the deputation and the progress made in the constituency I represent.

Mr. Corry

It is peculiarly appropriate that Deputy Dillon should be Minister for Fisheries. Surely he is a most appropriate Minister for cod. I support Deputy McQuillan and Deputy O'Leary in the argument they have put up. I object to public money being expended on the protection of fisheries for the advantage of gentlemen from abroad who want to fish here. We have a rather peculiar situation in that respect in portion of my constituency, and if Deputy McQuillan and Deputy O'Leary, now that they are members of a Government, would bring their weight to bear on the Minister for Lands they might get a little further ahead. I do not think it will help fisheries and the quantity of fish to be obtained if the men who should be the natural owners of these fish, namely, the men who pay rates and annuities for the river bank and river bed, have no right whatever to the fish in the rivers which flow through land for which they pay this money. How can you expect any attempt to preserve the fish in these rivers? If it happened on my land, I would take good care that, if I could not have them, they would not have any fish, either.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think I heard the Deputy make the same statement on the Vote for Lands.

Mr. Corry

There is nothing wrong in making it on this Vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is scarcely relevant to both.

Mr. Corry

Despite the fact that we are providing money for the protection of fish.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not arguing with the Deputy. I am saying that the Deputy was allowed to go so far.

Mr. Corry

I do not wish to go any further. That there should be imported into this island £500,000 worth of fish in 1947 and almost £300,000 worth in 1948 is, to use the Minister's words, all cod. That should not be and there is something wrong with a Department of Fisheries in an island which cannot provide enough fish for our own people. That is something which I want to see remedied. I admit that the exports are rather high, but I wonder who is getting the money for the exports and how much of it is going to the owners of certain old-time rights. These are the gentlemen who are getting the income out of those fish and not the fishermen in whom Deputies take an interest. The whole position with regard to fisheries requires immediate revision.

We had an argument here as between inshore fishermen and deep-sea trawlers. I was down in Bantry last Sunday and I suggest that, if the Minister took an excursion down there, his eyes would be opened and he would be rather surprised to see the number of foreign trawlers which I saw at the quayside in Bantry.

Mr. S. Collins

There are usually about 70 of them there.

Mr. Corry

These people must be getting a livelihood somewhere around our coast, and, if they can get a livelihood there, there should be a livelihood there for our own people, and that is where I lock horns with the people who say that there should not be a deep-sea fishing industry. There is undoubtedly a very great opening for deep-sea fishing all around our coast, and, if it is necessary for us to import almost £500,000 worth of fish every year, there surely is an opportunity which the people in the Department should develop by finding out what classes of fish are coming in and by seeing to what extent that demand can be met here.

I am concerned about the protection afforded for boats, particularly in Ballycotton. I have been approached in this matter by the Ballycotton Development Association on a few occasions and I have been informed that the man in charge there is not prepared to recommend the purchase of any extra boats in the district until the pier there is extended and protection afforded to these boats. The county council are prepared to do their part—as a matter of fact, the matter is before the county council at present —and I want to see the Department of Fisheries and the Sea Fisheries Association doing their part, so that we can get extra boats there and provide a livelihood for nine or ten more young Irishmen, who, if they are not provided for, will have to get a livelihood elsewhere across the sea. If they get the opportunity, they will be able to reduce imports of fish.

The Minister is rather new in this job, and I do not intend any criticism of this Vote, beyond suggesting what I think should be done. Provision must be made for the proper protection of boats that are purchased. The whole fishery position requires recasting and remodelling, and the time has arrived when foreigners should not be allowed to get the income that should properly go to the ordinary people of this country. If you take a boat in Youghal Harbour, you have to pay licence money to some earl or duke or somebody else. That position should not obtain to-day. It should end and end quickly. I understand that practically the same position prevails on the Blackwater. Yet one sees laws introduced by which a man can have a net only of a certain length and can fish only between certain times, while, at the same time, there are laws preserved by which a lord or duke or earl can walk in every morning to a trap and fork out of that trap anything up to 200 or 300 salmon.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It would require legislation to deal with that, would not it?

Mr. Corry

I am suggesting that until those changes are made——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is not entitled to suggest legislation.

Mr. Corry

I accept that. The Department should get to work in the matter of the protection of the boats that we have and the purchase of new boats and where the local authority are prepared to be of assistance and are of assistance the Department should help out so that we may be in a position to give employment to our people.

Mr. Rooney

The inshore fishermen have found a new friend in the Minister for Agriculture. The debate has shown general agreement on all sides of the House that the fisheries industry was sadly neglected since the days when Mr. Fionán Lynch was in charge of the Department. It is a welcome change to see the Minister for Agriculture about to pursue the policy of Mr. Fionán Lynch in trying to put the inshore fishing industry on its feet. It is notable that the Estimate this year of £151,000 is higher than it ever was before. The inshore fishermen will feel the benefit of that and, when we consider that, last year, when these people were subscribing tax for the purpose of providing a Constellation air force and were only given half that figure for their own industry, the change is very obvious. The Minister in introducing the Estimate has shown that he will be helpful so far as he can in putting the industry on its feet again. More fish were marketed in 1948 than in any previous year and more money was received for fish sold in 1948 than in any previous year. As the Minister has decided to make £88,000 available for the purpose of providing boats and gear, I feel that the quantity of fish caught and the income therefrom will be higher than in the peak year of 1948.

I was surprised to hear my colleague, Deputy Burke, agitating for all this equipment and help for the inshore fishermen. He was there for several years and his Party were there still longer, and each year that passed found the industry further declining. We can see from the records that very little was done for the inshore fishermen since Fianna Fáil came into power. Now Deputy Burke wants to give them everything and to get everything for them. I will be only too glad to see Deputy Burke distributing Coalition boats amongst these needy fishermen which will enable them to earn a proper living. Deputy Burke boasted here that, as a result of representations which he made to the Minister for Agriculture, he succeeded in getting the Minister to do something for the fishermen. Everybody will know from the Minister's attitude towards fishermen that there is no need for Deputy Burke to force him to do something for them. He is ready to do all he can.

I regret that Deputy Burke left out the Skerries fishermen when he tried to cover all the groups of fishermen along the east coast of County Dublin and mentioned the various places. The Skerries fishermen depend on a certain amount of assistance from the Sea Fisheries Association and I hope the Minister will not neglect them.

I believe that there is no room for the two industries, deep-sea trawling and inshore fishing, because I know a small fleet of trawlers efficiently managed could provide enough fish for the people of this country and would deprive the inshore fishermen of a living. I would like the Minister to consider the possibility of advocating fish days in Ireland just as there used to be meat days in Britain. Fish days in Ireland would be for the purpose of popularising the consumption of fish. It would be a way of improving the health of the people because fish is a healthy food and there is not half enough of it consumed here. The question of distribution, of course, would have to be carefully considered by the Minister, because in villages and towns 20 to 30 miles from the coast people can get only imported canned fish. That brings me to the suggestion that, although we have a canning industry, we ought to try to establish machinery which will enable us to can all the fish which could be consumed in this country.

Mr. Spring

I have very little to say on this Estimate, as the whole field has been covered by previous speakers. Every Deputy seemed to cover his own district and to look for grants for the repair of piers, and so on. All I have to say is that we are very grateful to the Minister for his decision to establish a boat building shed in Dingle. I know this will be of great benefit to the district and the fishermen there will appreciate the gesture very much. As the Minister mentioned in his opening statement, the establishment of this boat shed will supply the boats needed in the district.

Another matter which coincides with the boat shed at Dingle and which is more important to the fishermen of the district at present is a dredger for Dingle Harbour. We have been agitating for that a number of years. The piles at Dingle Harbour appeared in Dingle at a vision of 15 feet about 15 or 16 years ago. I went back there this year at the request of the fishermen, and the vision there now is only about two feet from the silt to the top of the pier. I have been asked to ask the Minister to get a dredger to dredge Dingle Harbour. There is no use in giving boats to the people unless the harbour is dredged, because at certain times they cannot get out to fish. I understand that there are only two boats in Dingle that can rise at certain tides to get fish. I would, therefore, ask the Minister to provide a dredger for Dingle Harbour and to do a good and successful job there.

Mr. Dillon

I have listened to this very exhaustive and instructive debate. I am very grateful to all the Deputies who have contributed to it. I hope to demonstrate by the conduct of the Department during the coming 12 months that the suggestions they have been good enough to make have not been forgotten. However, I think it is fair to mention again a matter which was first referred to by Deputy Rooney. It is that the money appropriated in this House for the Department of Fisheries is the largest sum that has ever been appropriated for this service since the State was founded, with the exception of one year, when the Estimate contained an item of £50,000 which was required to liquidate the liabilities of a bankrupt deep-sea trawling project that had been initiated by the Department of Fisheries. I think it is a chastening thought to recall that interesting landmark in the Department's career.

Mr. Hickey

I hope it will not discourage the Minister in the future.

Mr. Dillon

Not in the least. If I believed to-morrow that it was consistent with the survival of the inshore fishermen to establish a deep-sea trawling company in this country on a large or on a small scale I would recommend to the Government forthwith that whatever sum of money was necessary should forthwith be appropriated for that purpose. It is because I am profoundly convinced that the permanent employment of 2,000 men and the part-time employment of 8,000 men would be irretrievably destroyed by the volume of fish delivered into this country by a competent trawling company that I have refused four proposals in the last 12 months to establish deep-sea trawling industries based in this country. I would value the considered judgement of the House on that matter. My policy is to reserve for the inshore fishermen in this country the exclusive enjoyment of the entire domestic market for fish.

Mr. Timoney

Have they that?

Mr. Dillon

Yes.

Mr. Timoney

Is fish not imported?

Mr. Dillon

Yes.

Mr. Timoney

How then is the case of an exclusive market argued?

Mr. Dillon

I think I can explain that to the Deputy. My policy has not yet been fully realised because the plans are now in the process of execution. Heretofore, we had a situation in this country in which we had a kind of quasi-trawling company here in Dublin—a respectable trading body that had been there for a long time. It was not, in the real sense, a deep-sea trawling company, but it was a kind of quasi-company. You had the Sea Fisheries Association and you had the ordinary fish wholesalers. My proposal, under the new dispensation, is to constitute the Sea Fisheries Association a co-operative of all the inshore fishermen in Ireland. Having so constitued it, nobody will be entitled to land fish in this country except the Sea Fisheries Association acting on behalf of the inshore fishermen. The Sea Fisheries Association will look primarily to the boats of its own members to land the fish the domestic market requires. Its policy will be to pay a fixed price which will be known to the fishermen before they go out fishing for demersal fish. I have told the House already that the problem of marketing pelagic fish is not so simple.

Mr. Timoney

Does that apply both to canned and to fresh fish? Would there be an exclusive market for our own fishermen?

Mr. Dillon

Absolutely, but let me follow the thing out if I may. The Sea Fisheries Association, as reconstituted, will look first to their own members but, inevitably, there will be a period of perhaps two or three days when the inshore fishermen, for one reason or another, are unable to land the fish which the market requires. It will then be the duty of the Sea Fisheries Association either to purchase the cargo of a foreign trawler which is sheltering in one of our bays and to distribute that to the consumer pending the arrival of further supplies in their own members' boats, or to go to Grimsby or Hull, or whereever fish is to be found, and fill the gap for two or three days until such time as the normal stream of fish from our own members' boats will supply the market. There is no use pretending that that represents the most highly efficient or economic method of supplying the Irish fish market. If we give the Norwegians or the Icelanders or the Dutch or the French or the British a concession to operate a trawling company from this country, the cause of efficiency and economy will be much better served. In the full knowledge of that fact, I have turned down four separate proposals of that character.

Mr. Timoney

Does the Minister then not contemplate at all the export of fish from this country?

Mr. Dillon

Of fresh fish?

Mr. Timoney

Or canned fish.

Mr. Dillon

I can fully sympathise with Deputy Timoney. I think he is allowing something to blind him to the real problem. What the Deputy is thinking of is: why should not we supply not only the domestic market, but have a large surplus for export all over the world?

Mr. Timoney

Try it.

Mr. Dillon

That can only be tried by a big trawling fleet. But, in the process of getting that export surplus and the supply for the domestic market, you are going to wipe out 10,000 inshore fishermen.

Mr. S. Collins

Why?

Mr. Dillon

Because you cannot accumulate a surplus for export without inevitably saturating the domestic market.

Mr. S. Collins

If you keep your inshore fishermen and you use the deep-sea trawling company in this country to supply your lacuna periods and only allow the deep-sea trawling company to supply the domestic market to the extent that the Sea Fisheries Association ask it, can they not at the same time build up an employment potential and export the surplus fish without in any way interfering with inshore fishermen?

Mr. Dillon

I see the Deputy's point. He is hoping that we could create a situation in which the inshore fishermen would supply the domestic market and that there then should be located in Ireland a trawling company trawling fish into our harbours, with this restriction upon them—that they must export their entire catch, except so much as would be bespoken by the Sea Fisheries Association to fill gaps. I put it to the House that you have a supply of fish brought in by a powerful, wealthy trawling combine who continually make the case: "We must take the fish out of Ireland; that is our agreement." But, outside of Alice in Wonderland, was there ever heard of such a situation where a fleet of trawlers bring all their fish into Ireland and then ship it all out again? I am a long time in public life——

Mr. S. Collins

I think the Minister is distorting the case.

Mr. Dillon

I do not want Deputy Collins to misunderstand me. Does he not anticipate that the trawling company will distort the thing because they will want to get the domestic market? They will say: "We are going to abide by our agreement most meticulously", but they will covet the domestic market. We can put restrictions on them, but we cannot censor them. They are entitled to argue their case and make their representations and say: "So long as the restrictions are upon us we will observe them, but why not take the restrictions off?" I cannot see myself or any other Minister for Fisheriés in the long run being able to sustain the proposition that a trawling company should operate from Ireland on the condition that it does not sell a herring's tail in Ireland.

Mr. S. Collins

Has the Minister considered the possibility that such a trawling company can be made to supply our raw material for a canning industry and a fish meal industry?

Mr. Dillon

Of course I have. I do not want Deputy Collins to create the impression that he and I are at loggerheads on this particular issue, because I am perfectly certain that he and I are aiming at precisely the same objective. Our only difference is the best way of arriving at it. If I believed that you could build up an industry based on the catches of a trawling company; if I believed that I could preserve for the inshore fishermen the domestic market and, at the same time, have a trawling company furnishing factories and providing employment, I would be all for it. It is because I am as certain as I am standing here that, whatever restrictions you impose on a trawling company based on Ireland, no sooner will they be firmly established than they will make the case, as they are entitled to make the case: "We acknowledge our obligation and submit to the restriction imposed on us when we were set up, but we are entitled to argue that this restriction should be removed and that the anomaly of the only efficient unit in Ireland not being allowed to sell a single fish in Ireland should be brought to an end." As certainly as you permit a trawling company based on Ireland to get into the position of making that claim, no Minister for Fisheries will be able long to withstand it. The moment he gives way and permits a trawling company to sell their catch on the domestic market you can close the boatyard at Meevagh and the boatyard at Killybegs and the boatyard at Dingle, and you can close up the employment of 2,000 men who are permanently employed and about 8,000 more who are fishing instead of engaging in migratory labour.

I know that there are many people who have given much thought to this matter and who are fascinated by the prospect that, quite apart from the consumption of fish, the produce of a trawler's catch could be used for the manufacture of fish meal, fish manures, canneries, etc. There could be no greater illusion, because you cannot afford to use fish for the baser purposes, such as animal feeding and manure, except on the assumption that you have a profitable market in which to dispose of your prime fish and pay your expenses with your prime fish, and then convert the dross into manure and fertilisers and feeding stuffs and so forth, and treat it on the basis that it costs nothing at all, because your prime fish has carried the cost of your trawling operation and you are only charged with the preparation of fish feed or fish manure in the process.

Mr. Timoney

Is the Minister making a case that it is altogether uneconomic?

Mr. Dillon

Without having the safeguard of an ample market for the prime fish, which must constitute the bulk of a trawler haul.

Mr. Timoney

I take it that that has been examined. Has it been established?

Mr. Dillon

I do not think there is any doubt about it.

Mr. Timoney

Has it been examined?

Mr. Dillon

Yes. There may be several opinions about it.

Mr. C. Lehane

There are.

Mr. Dillon

As I have repeatedly said to this House, ultimately a duty devolves on any Minister to listen closely to counsel from whatever side it comes and trust to the Holy Ghost to give him the gift to sift it and then to make up his mind. That is all he can do. But one thing he should not do, that is to wait till the cows come home. He would be a fool if he did not listen to rational advice from wherever it may come; then, having taken the precaution to which I have referred, to make up his mind. Some people expect the Minister to abstain from a decision until he is in a position to make a godlike one. Until he believes himself to have the omniscience of God, what is he to do? All I can do is to make up the mind that God gave me and recommend a certain course of action to the Government.

Mr. Timoney

Suppose all the weight of opinion in the House is to the effect that you are wrong?

Mr. Dillon

God bless the democratic institution in which we live.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is becoming a philosophic discussion.

Mr. Dillon

I want to follow this out closely to the end. It is my duty as the Minister for Fisheries. This, I submit, is strictly relevant to the Estimate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister may proceed.

Mr. Dillon

My duty is to make a recommendation to the House. The House can then, in its wisdom, reject that and withdraw my £1,550 Minister's salary.

Mr. Timoney

Two thousand odd.

Mr. Dillon

I get £600 as a Parliamentary Deputy and £1,550 as a Minister. That is the process. I have tried to explain as clearly as I possibly can every step I took in reaching the conclusion and policy which I recommend to the House now.

Mr. S. Collins

Has the Minister explored the possibility of the two industries being able to work in a complementary way or has he condemned such an investigation?

Mr. Dillon

I have examined that most closely and exhaustively, but the further I look into it the more convinced I am that the fishing trawler-means the end of the inshore fisherman.

Mr. S. Collins

Will the Minister make available to the House for our guidance the particulars of the survey that made him come to that conclusion?

Mr. Dillon

I would be very glad to furnish the particulars of that survey to any Deputy. It is one thing to direct the attention of the House to the amount of money allocated to this Department since this State was established. There would be little cause for self-congratulation in that if I were not in a position to add that the landing of wet fish, excluding salmon, in the 12 months of 1948 represents the greatest weight of wet fish that ever was landed since the Sea Fisheries Association was founded in 1930, and that the value of the 385,243 cwts. of fish landed was £595,647, a higher value than has ever been recorded for wet fish landed on the coasts of this country by the Sea Fisheries Association. In the course of the first 12 months—to give a man his due—that is not bad going. If the truth were told, microscopic credit is due to me, but the convention is that the Minister takes the kicks. On this occasion he proposes to accept the ha'pence as well.

Shell fish have been very good too, with one interesting exception— scallops. It apparently is true that the American soldiers had a fancy for the scallops; so long as the number of American soldiers continued to arrive in Great Britain we sold lots of scallops. As the American soldiers went back to America the demand for scallops proceeded to disappear. Whether that was a coincidence or whether they were the principal consumers of that fish is not yet certain but it looks very much as if they were the principal people who consumed them. However, my plan is that when the Sea Fisheries Association is reconstituted it will have three divisions: (1) for the provision of boats and equipment for the fishermen; (2) for the marketing of fish on the domestic market and (3) for the marketing of fish on the industrial and foreign market and for the research requisite to find new markets for shell fish and the like which we have not as yet had an opportunity to supply.

I have been asked about the three-mile limit. This, so far as I know, is the fruit of a discussion which took place about 1930 at the Hague between a very large assembly of nations who were gathered for the purpose of trying to reach common agreement. Some people wanted a three-mile, some a six and some a 12-mile limit. They all came round to accepting three miles. When it came to six miles some wanted it and some did not. When it came to 12 miles few wanted it and many did not. Finally the party broke up with everybody accepting the desirability of three miles, some of the tough kind who had means of making their wishes effective saying: "Whatever they mean, we mean six." There is the outstanding example of that stout defender of national sovereignty—the U.S.S.R.—setting 12 miles or as far further as they can reach.

That is the present position. It is very generally accepted to be piracy if you start upheavals outside the three-mile limit. There are some nations which have made bilateral agreements that if A will keep so many miles from the shores of B, B will keep the same number of miles from the shores of A, but there is no universal rule. In the last analysis, when you get on the high seas, I ask Deputies to remember that you cannot blow a whistle and call a Civic Guard. When you get on the high seas, international law is enforced by no international police and unless you are in a position to establish your rights under international law vi et armis, what are you going to do? The seagulls will not come down and the dolphins will not help. When we talk about clearing the seas adjoining our shores, 12 miles out, we have to ask ourselves what we have to clear them with. I am a great believer in sticking my chin out just as far as I know I will be able to draw it in again.

I know that some of my poetic friends on the Opposition Benches and, indeed, some who are not on the Opposition Benches, are inclined to describe some of our inlets and bays as having fleets of trawlers resting on the shimmering bosom of their waters. I do not think any Deputy would agree that we would not receive, as every other nation in the world has always done, distressed vessels at sea into the safety of our inlets, bays and harbours in times of stormy weather. It is perfectly true that in Bantry, Killala and Galway, you will occasionally see large groups of foreign trawlers which enter the bays for protection in stormy weather. It is quite a different proposition if you see trawlers in the process of trawling within our domestic waters.

Mind you, everybody seems to think that, if we were to equip ourselves with trawlers, all our troubles would be over. That is not the experience of Great Britain. I understand that at present Great Britain finds it extremely difficult to supply her domestic market and has to depend to no small extent on the inshore fishermen of Denmark. She sends out her trawlers, but by the time they bring the fish back to port, even though it is carefully distributed and refrigerated, it is not always first-class fish. One of the reasons why there have been a kind of lacunæ in the supply in Cork, to which Deputy Hickey referred, is not for the want of any largesse on the part of anyone or because the Sea Fisheries Association will not buy fish in Grimsby or in one of the other recognised fishing centres. The reason is that there was not any fish. Remember, the shortage of meat in England has greatly stimulated the demand for every kind of fish. Added to that, the customary trawlers which bring in supplies of fish to Great Britain have repeatedly failed recently to do so and so they have had to fall back on catches made by Danish inshore fishermen. Fish at the moment is a relatively scarce commodity.

Mr. C. Lehane

Is the Minister making the case that the establishment of a deep-sea trawling fleet by us would create a surplus that we could not dispose of?

Mr. Dillon

No, but it will create a surplus more than sufficient to saturate our domestic demand. Remember, we are not a fish-eating people. Since 95 per cent. of us are good, pious Roman Catholics, we have to eat fish on Friday, but we are damned if we will eat it any other day. I would not eat fish if I could get out of it. I detest fish. Why anyone should feel bound to eat fish I do not know. I detest the stuff and I always did. I eat it with profound reluctance on a Friday. I may say that I much prefer an egg. It is not high treason to say that, and it is not treason to our fishermen. It is the way that God made me. I do not think there is any duty on the Irish people to eat fish. I do not think that we should start building a sort of religion in this country that you must eat fish or else that you are a bad Irishman and a traitor to the national cause. I do not think that is so.

Mr. C. Lehane

Would the Minister say if there is anything wrong in educating the people as to the food value of fish?

Mr. Dillon

I do not want to educate anybody as to what they may want to eat. Neither do I think fish has any superior food value, that it is in any way superior to a leg of mutton or an egg. When a man earns his week's wages, has he not the right to furnish his table any way he blooming well likes without being told by the Minister for Fisheries, or anybody else, what he should put on it?

Mr. Hickey

But he may like fish.

Mr. Dillon

My business is to see that if people want fish on their table, it shall be made available to them at a fair price through the agency of the inshore fishermen organised in a co-operative society, and that the Sea Fisheries Association will be the sole authority charged with the responsibility of furnishing the Irish domestic market with fish.

With regard to the detailed inquiries that were made by Deputies, they will be answered where an answer is required. I think the time of the House demands that I should undertake to do that as between the Deputies and myself. There is one suggestion which I should like to make. There must be a number of Deputies on the Fianna Fáil side of the House and in other parts of the House who can lay aside politics for some fragment of their lives. There must be Deputies on all sides who are interested in fishing and, when I say fishing, I mean fishing with a rod and line. If there are such, and if they constitute themselves into an anglers' committee of this House, they might perhaps from time to time consider problems that they have personal knowledge of and make suggestions to me to improve our inland fisheries. I should be very grateful if they would do that. I may not be able to give effect to everything that they propose, but I can assure them of this, that whatever proposals they put before me will be most carefully considered, and if it is humanly possible to try out any proposal they have to make, then tried out it most certainly will be. That is a matter in which I would prefer the members of the House would take the initiative themselves rather than that I should try to institute the formulation of such a committee. I believe that would help us all materially and it might, in addition, tend to dissipate the asperities that sometimes emerge from the less restrained of our members.

Were I to pursue this matter further, I must speak for an hour, but, as I have every hope of this Estimate being conceded before 1 o'clock, I am not going to say very much more. But I will say this, that as far as the Department of Fisheries is concerned, we are very anxious for suggestions from Deputies who know of particular problems in their own areas, and it is very often helpful to us to have our attention directed to them.

I was glad to hear Deputy McGrath say that he had found by experience that he was always made heartily welcome in the Department when he had any inquiry to raise or business to transact. That is as I would expect it to be. Deputy Allen was very much upset that more prompt and vigorous action had not been taken about Poulduff and Cahore Point and, lest Deputies should take scandal and fear that Deputy Allen and the people of Wexford are labouring under some extraordinary difficulty, I would like to inform the House that in a report published by my Department in 1907 they had to state that—

"The extension of Poulduff pier has been completed and the works have been taken over by the county council. It has been reported that the pier is giving much satisfaction locally."

That was 42 years ago and since then Poulduff has turned up at regular intervals. When we completed this pier in 1906 we left half way down a gap through which the tide was to flow and which we hoped would prevent silting and erosion. Subsequently some local genius determined that this gap had been left because the Department of Agriculture was too lazy to build the pier all in one piece and he decided to repair their error. So he filled the gap, with the result that the silt, instead of passing out through the gap, ricochetted and has gradually worn away the spending beach. It was to avoid that that we left the gap 42 years ago. The wiseacre has now succeeded in sweeping the beach away.

In 1933 the matter was carefully examined and it was decided that nothing could be done. In 1939 it came forward for further review. In 1946 the county council in Wexford put up proposals which would cost a very substantial sum. I will not say more than that. I met a deputation from Wexford, led by Deputy Allen and Deputy Sir John Esmonde, and Deputy O'Leary was, I think, on it. We discussed the whole business and the position now is that the Board of Works are preparing an alternative plan to that submitted by the optimistic, expansive and to me entirely sympathetic junior engineer on the staff of the Wexford County Council. I confess that if I were in his position I, too, would plan glory for Poulduff, but the modest resources of this State cannot aspire to granting a harbour for every Poulduff along our shores.

I could follow all these fascinating rainbows down through their long history and most of them would prove to go back into the early part of this century; but, instead, I will reserve that for some other occasion and now I will ask the House to approve the Estimate.

Amendment put and declared negatived.

Main motion put and agreed to.

Business suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.