Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Jun 1949

Vol. 115 No. 18

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Mr. McGrath

Yesterday evening the Minister stated that a speech made by him in Westport referred specifically to rural workers. I want to ask him what he proposes to do for the urban workers. Has he any schemes of employment for the thousands of people who are signing on at the labour exchanges in the urban areas? When Deputy Corry was speaking last week the Minister said he had work for so many thousands; he said yesterday that that referred to the rural workers. What will he do for the people who are idle in the urban areas? In 1947 the Minister stated on the 17th April at column 847, Volume 105, of Dáil Debates:—

"I said here 12 months ago, and I want to repeat it now, that without the slightest trouble every able-bodied man and woman in this country could be put into useful work to-morrow morning."

Has the Minister any schemes to provide employment for the 3,400 or 3,500 who are signing on at Cork Labour Exchange? What will the Minister do to prevent the employees in the woollen mills being laid off? If they are laid off, that will undoubtedly increase the numbers signing on at the exchange.

I have here a letter from the Cork Workers' Council asking me to do what I can to prevent the Minister carrying out that part of the Milne report which affects the heavy workshops at Rock-savage. The letter says:—

"Should this transfer take place, it will have serious repercussions on the workers in the trade in Cork and will lead to a great deal of unemployment. My council disagrees entirely with this centralisation of industry. On the contrary, industry should be more and more decentralised. In view of the foregoing, I am to ask you for your co-operation in the non-acceptance of the recommendation."

I am sure the other Cork representatives have also received copies of that letter. I would ask the Minister when he is replying to allay the anxiety and uneasiness that exists among the workers engaged in these workshops.

I should also like to draw the Minister's attention to the bus fares charged in Cork, especially for children, and to the short distances which people are allowed to travel for these fares. For one journey which I know and which is less than a mile, a fare of 3d. is charged. That is out of all proportion to what I pay here in Dublin. These high fares have a very serious effect on the cost of living of the average family, especially if there are three or four children going to school. Children are now being charged half the adult fares; previously there was only one fare, 1d., for school-going children. They are now being charged 2d. for very short distances. I know one case of a family in which four children are going to school. They pay 2d. each in the morning, a total of 8d., going to school, 8d. coming home to lunch, 8d. going back after lunch and 8d. coming home in the evening. The Minister can make that up for himself, apart from what the father and mother have to pay when the father is going to and coming home from work and the mother has to go out to do some shopping. These fares, as I say, have a very serious effect on the cost of living at the present time.

I should further like to draw the Minister's attention to the hardship caused to some industrialists in the centre of the City of Cork due to the delay in the change over from D.C. to A.C. current by the Electricity Supply Board. Employers have told me that they have been warned that if they get in new machinery after a certain date —that is now a couple of years ago— they will not be compensated for any new motors or machinery they may get in in this way. They say that the cost of maintaining the old machinery is very high compared with what would be the cost of maintaining new plant. I think that Cork is being unfairly treated in that respect.

There is another matter in connection with the Electricity Supply Board concerning which Deputy Lehane asked a question some time ago, namely, the sending of orders for the making of A masts required in County Cork up to Dublin. These A masts are generally made by shipwrights. I believe there are about six shipwrights making them in Dublin and when current orders are completed in Dublin, they are allowed to pile up a stock. In Cork there were a few shipwrights making these masts at Kilbarry. They would be allowed to make just the number required for a certain area but they would not be allowed to make them for stock, with the result that if certain masts were urgently required in certain areas the order was sent to Dublin. Masts are sometimes sent from Dublin to districts as far away as Bantry. I think the Electricity Supply Board should be asked to pile up stocks of A masts in Cork as well as in Dublin because this practice of sending up to Dublin for masts and transporting them to places as far distant as Charleville and Bantry should not be allowed. It is about time it stopped.

I should like also to draw the Minister's attention to a question I put down to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs some time ago in regard to the import of poles in a finished condition. The reply which I received from him was that poles used in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are generally imported in a partially dressed condition and the dressing is completed at Dublin and Cork. During the past year, however, he added, it was not possible to secure sufficient partially dressed poles to meet the requirements of the telephone development programme, and two lots of poles, one in a completely dressed condition and the other already creosoted, were purchased. I think an effort should be made to obviate the necessity of importing dressed poles under any circumstances, so that employment might be provided for people in our own country dressing and creosoting these poles. I was approached by a number of workers about that matter last April when I put down the question and they told me that about 40 men were employed in Cork at that particular work.

I should now like to address a few remarks to the Minister about the tourist situation at Cobh. He is aware that a deputation came up here last December comprising all the T.D.s for the City of Cork and East Cork and they put up a very good case to him in regard to the facilities that should be provided. They received a reply from him on 7th February to the following effect:—

"I am directed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce to refer to your letter of 18th January, 1949, and to inform you that the Minister has now had an opportunity of discussing with the Minister for Finance the matters raised by the deputation from Cobh at the conference in Leinster House on December 2nd last. The Minister for Finance is in full agreement with the view the Minister conveyed to you at the conference that any better facilities considered necessary at Cobh should be provided by private enterprise and not by any Department of State and he has indicated that it would be out of the question for him to undertake any commitments on the Exchequer in regard to the matters discussed."

I do not know how private enterprise could provide the extra customs facilities such as were suggested, the only place available being portion of the Córas Iompair Éireann premises. I would point out to the Minister, as was pointed out to him on that occasion, that this is not really a question for Cobh or Cork at all. Most of the tourists coming into Cobh go straight away to different parts of the country. I had an experience of that on Tuesday when I was travelling up from Cork by train. Two of the largest transatlantic steamers, the Washington and the Mauretania, arrived off Cobh that morning and at the last moment the train was delayed and hundreds of these tourists boarded it. Many of them got off at Limerick Junction, but the majority came on to Dublin. Surely the Minister does not expect the people of Cobh or Cork to provide the facilities needed to cater for this business. I can assure the Minister I listened to a good many complaints coming up on the train about the three-and-a-half hour delay they had at the customs. Apparently the same thing happened some time before, because in last Sunday's Sunday Chronicle there appears an article with the heading: “Port hold up may cost dollars,”“Americans wait three hours.” It goes on:

"American tourists and other visitors are complaining bitterly about the long delays caused by the customs at some Irish ports.

Unless there is a speeding-up in the service before the summer traffic begins it is feared the tourist trade may suffer.

The main cause of the delay is the shortage of officers, I was told yesterday.

The problem is particularly acute at Cobh. Some passengers say that they have been held up for hours in draughty sheds while three officers worked their way through thousands of bags and trucks.

They had the annoying experience, they said, of having one or two of their cases examined within the first hour and then having to wait another hour to have the remainder checked.

Officials seemed to roam along the checking counters, picking out luggage at random.

The checking of the luggage of 200 passengers one day last week took more than three hours."

You can see by the reply the Minister gave us the contempt they have for the provision of any facilities for the tourist traffic at Cobh or Cork. We are told that the tourist industry is worth £35,000,000—some people say more—to this country, and still, while they do big things for Rineanna, at Cobh, where ten tourists come in for every one who comes to Rineanna, they leave people sitting on the quays or anywhere they like without any accommodation. I would like to contrast that with the way the people across the water, who are supposed to be much wealthier than we, looked after their own tourist industry last December at the time when we approached the Minister. I have some extracts here from the Daily Express dated 20th December, 1948:—

"Cabinet Orders: Brighter Britain for the Tourists,

Ports Airfields, will get Money if they need it.

By Montague Lacey.

Britain's sea and air ports have been told to plan a brighter and better welcome for visitors. Cabinet orders are that money will be found for new buildings and more staff if they are needed.

Sir Stafford Cripps, Chancellor of the Exchequer, has already sent out experts to advise.

A short-term plan for tourists who will be coming to this country from Easter onwards will go into operation as soon as possible.

A long-term plan foresees great improvement in ports and railway stations, to be ready by 1951, when hundreds of thousands of tourists are expected for the great London festival and exhibition.

Sir James R.C. Helmore, second secretary to the Board of Trade, is the chief planner.

It is expected that within four years the tourist industry in this country will be earning more than £1,000,000 a week—a total of £65,000,000 by 1952."

We contend that our tourist industry earned £35,000,000 last year, but still we are not prepared to spend anything out of the national Exchequer. This goes on to say:—

"A Government working party has already visited Dover, Folke-stone and Harwich, the big entry ports for most European countries. Recommendations will be put into effect soon.

One suggestion was the speeding up in dealing with tourists who bring cars with them.

Treasury official Mr. L.F. Morrissey—the Minister's namesake— heads the working party, which includes officials from the Transport Commission, Ministry of Transport, Docks and Harbour Authorities' Association, Ministry of Health, Board of Trade, Ministry of Food, Ministry of Civil Aviation, Customs and Excise, Immigration, Railway Executives, and Mr. A. McLean, assistant to the Director-General of the Travel Association.

All these departments have something to do with tourists arriving or leaving. Among other things, they have been told to simplify formalities for entry and exit. For instance:— The customs will consider speedier methods for clearing passengers.

The Ministry of Health will decide if it is necessary for a visitor to fill in a form stating where he has spent the last 14 nights before arrival.

The railways have been asked to concentrate on improvements in their services in boat trains, better station refreshment rooms, more and better restaurant and sleeping-cars."

An Ceann Comhairle

I hope that there is not much more in the document. There must be some limit to what can be quoted about what is being done elsewhere.

Mr. McGrath

There is no harm in letting the Minister know what is being done elsewhere.

An Ceann Comhairle

There must be some limit to it.

Mr. McGrath

I will not read much more. I am sorry you are bored.

An Ceann Comhairle

That remark is uncalled for. I just did it in the interests of order. Documents saying what is being done elsewhere cannot be read at great length.

Mr. McGrath

I am making a comparison between that country which is wealthier than we are and this country. I think it is no harm to compare our possibilities of earning dollars with those of the country across the water. The wealthier country is doing these things in the hope of getting £65,000,000 by 1952, while we made £35,000,000 last year:—

"The Treasury will sanction capital investments for this work because of its dollar earning importance.

It is likely that the new quayside stations at Southampton due to be opened for Atlantic travellers next year will be a model for most of the country.

The Government expects that the rate of increase in Britain's earnings from tourists is likely to be bigger than any other export. This year's total receipts were £35,000,000, of which nearly half was dollars. And indications in America are that travel to Europe in 1949 may reach an all-time record."

I put it to the Minister that the chief port of entry into this country for tourists with dollars is Cobh. I do not think the Minister will deny that. The Minister and the Minister for Finance have gone out of their way to neglect this industry. They tell us that it should be met by private enterprise. Why should the people of Cobh or Cork do so much for these people who will go away by train to Dublin or the West of Ireland as soon as the customs are cleared, as that is the only delay they have in Cobh? This is a great national industry bringing in much-needed dollars and I think it is the duty of the Government to foster it in every way they can. It is their duty to treat Cobh as a national port and to deal fairly with it and with the Cork Harbour Commissioners.

The Cork Harbour Commissioners went out of their way to facilitate this industry. They provided a tender when there were no private people to carry on the tender business that existed before the war. They spent well over £60,000 to ensure that the liners would be accommodated and the passengers landed. Surely the Government are as much entitled to help to carry on the industry in Cobh as in Rineanna. I would appeal to the Minister to change his outlook and look on the question of Cobh as a national one. I hope that, with the Minister for Finance, he will do his best to finance a scheme that will make it a fitting place to receive the thousands of tourists who come in there with their dollars.

Mr. Byrne

I will not delay the House very long. Every subject that could be discussed has been discussed. I wish to join with those members of the House who have extended congratulations to the Minister in his efforts to improve the position here during his term of office. He has striven hard, and in many cases he has been misrepresented. I earnestly hope the misrepresentations will not deter him from going ahead with his proposals.

I congratulate the Minister on bringing in the new Industrial Development Authority. I believe it will do great work. Deputy Derrig criticised it yesterday and said it would be a delaying committee and would not serve any useful purpose. I differ entirely with him, as I think it will speed up matters and that the public with money to invest will get advice and encouragement and quick decisions from this authority. As a result, it will do very valuable work. Instead of industrialists sending to some anonymous individual in the Department of Finance or some other Department who answers letters but puts them off for some weeks, they will have an opportunity of approaching this authority, which, I earnestly hope, will give them quick decisions, resulting in the provision of new industries with decent employment and good wages.

Unemployment has been mentioned by every Deputy who has spoken. I remember, exactly this time ten years, in 1939, Deputy de Valera saying that the most important problem to which the Government must lend its attention was the ending of unemployment. That was said from the very seat the Minister is in now and those words were used by Deputy de Valera, who was then Taoiseach. The problem of unemployment was as great then as it is now. Since that statement was made by Deputy de Valera, 500,000 of our people have emigrated. All during the years of the war, for seven years from 1939, tens of thousands of our good Irish men and women left our country, to find employment in other lands. They had not to go to America: they went to England. The Minister must recognise now that his responsibility to those people is far greater than that of the Minister who preceded him. The previous Minister could say that if he could give employment at home he would do all he could in that way, but he was very fortunate in his Department—unfortunately for the country— that they had England to go to. Emigration was the relief scheme produced in the past for the unemployed —industrial work in England, suffering hardships and the risks the English took during the bombing period. Our present Minister will not have England for the Irish people to travel to. Maybe that is just as well. I am glad, as I believe that he and his Department and the Dáil will put greater effort into trying to provide work for our men at home. They know that there is no room in America for our people and no room in England now either, and that a number of them are coming back here, so it will depend on the Minister and his Government to see they get a decent living in their own country. I hope the Minister will not overlook the fact that these thousands of our unemployed are depending now entirely on employment in Ireland and not on the ship to take them to England.

The question of emigration is being brought up everywhere we go. It was very high in 1945 and was much talked of then. I remember that one of the Fianna Fáil cumainn, in Rathmines— it had to be Rathmines—passed a resolution stating that conscription was the alternative. I hope the present Minister will not allow that to happen. I would rather see a man taking the ship to go out than that he should be told he was going to be conscripted, as was put forward by the Rathmines Fianna Fáil Club in the year 1945. Men opposite are thrashing out the problem of emigration now and attacking the present Government because our young men who are unemployed may have to go away. They forget that in 1945, when things were supposed to be pretty good, one of their own cumainn, to try and stop emigration, said that conscription was the only remedy. I hope conscription will never come in this country, that it is not to be the outlook for parents of boys who are leaving schools or the universities, that this country will have nothing for them but conscription. Please God, that day will never come. If they want to join our forces voluntarily, let then do so, but it must be done voluntarily.

Mr. Lemass

I take it you are ruling this speech in order?

An Ceann Comhairle

No, the question of conscription is not in order.

Mr. Byrne

Emigration was talked of by every Deputy on the Opposition side and the present Government was blamed. They want us to forget that, in 1945, a Fianna Fáil cumann said that conscription was the only remedy for unemployment.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is back again to conscription.

Mr. Byrne

I have finished with that point now, but it is worth while reminding Deputies of the fact. I ask the Minister to do something in connection with ready, remunerative, worth-while employment for our workers—these are the words used when circulars come to the corporation and the municipalities asking them to suggest some worth-while schemes. There are many of them, and I could suggest where the Minister could put on a few thousand men in the next couple of weeks—and, please God, he will make the recommendation. The building of bridges throughout Ireland is one such thing. There is a bridge well known to Waterford and Cork Deputies, the bridge at Youghal, which is a danger to the tourist traffic and to anyone who uses it. It is a long bridge and a costly job. You could put 1,000 men on such bridge work, with the aid of the Bill the Minister for Local Government was dealing with yesterday and the discussion of which will be resumed to-day. Without any Bill, one could put 1,000 men on this type of employment.

An Ceann Comhairle

Employment schemes do not come under this Vote.

Mr. Byrne

I have been tempted to mention these things.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should be able, with his experience, to resist the temptation.

Mr. Byrne

I was tempted, because so many other members were able to get in by a side wind.

An Ceann Comhairle

No Deputy has dealt with employment schemes.

Mr. Byrne

I am suggesting that the Minister has been attacked every five minutes since this started, about unemployment and the number of people rendered unemployed due to the closing down in the production of turf. I have just put it forward that this scheme would be a worth-while scheme.

An Ceann Comhairle

And it is not in order.

Mr. Byrne

I conclude by saying he would get the thanks of the people of Cork, Youghal and Waterford.

Something will have to be done about the excessive dumping of goods into this country. I realise that the Minister is doing everything possible to keep the cost of living at a reasonable level, and, in that respect, he has a difficult job, but, at the same time, he must not allow excessive dumping of cheap-quality inferior goods, which leads to unemployment in our own industries. Other Deputies have drawn attention to the dumping of certain types of tweeds and cloths which may bring about unemployment here. It is true that a certain quantity of tweeds and cloths is coming in here, outside the allocation fixed by the Minister's Department, and I have reason to believe that the confectionery industry also is becoming a little alarmed about the situation. I suggest that something be done to encourage our confectioners to produce more and there should be a definite limitation on the amount of foreign confectionery allowed in. These people are paying a tax on it, I agree, but they have machinery which our confectioners have not got and there is an excessive quantity coming in.

Two Labour Deputies and some others very properly referred to ship building and ship repairing in Dublin and I should like the Minister to take a special interest in this industry. We hear talk at regular intervals about ship building and ship repairing in Dublin. Some 30 years ago, when I was a member of the Dublin Port and Docks Board, I heard it talked about, but unfortunately our men drifted to Scotland and other parts of this country where ship building is carried on. When ships were being built for another board of which I was a member, the Irish Lights Commissioners, we found that the English yards' tenders were slightly lower than the tenders submitted by our yards, and I ask the Minister to see to it that the lowest tender is not necessarily to be accepted, if the difference between it and Irish tenders represents the freight on coal and steel imported into this country.

In the matter of ship building and ship repairing and manufactured goods generally, our industrialists have to bring in coal and the necessary raw materials, and I suggest that some special privilege be given to the Irish industrialists in this respect, that allowance be made for the cost of bringing in coal, steel and necessary machinery. Our industrialists sometimes do not get full credit for the fact that they are competing with a country which has coal and steel at its back-door, so to speak, and have to face high freights, with the result that they may lose contracts which could be secured if that concession were granted.

Many Deputies referred to the tourist traffic and I urge that something be done to encourage tourists and to avoid giving them a bad impression of the country, when either coming or leaving. The Minister must know that there is no toilet accommodation, no cloakrooms or waiting rooms at the North Wall, and I have seen a queue of 200 or 300 yards standing on the quays in the rain. Decent shelters and cloakroom accommodation should be provided, so that these people will not go away with a bad impression. The same applies to Dún Laoghaire, where I have seen queues a couple of hundred yards long and where there is no toilet or cloakroom accommodation either.

It is up to the Minister to see that our tourists are treated properly, and, in the matter of people having to stand for hours outside the offices of the various shipping companies awaiting the issue of travel tickets, I suggest that there should be an improved system of issuing these tickets. Finally, I hope the Minister will do something quickly for the unemployed, not alone of the City of Dublin but of the country generally. He will receive the grateful thanks of all Parties if he does so.

Mr. Kilroy

I want to impress on the Minister the seriousness of the emigration problem in my part of the country. There is scarcely a man or woman from the age of 16 to 40 years who has not gone away to America or England, and, if this state of affairs continues, I do not know what the situation will be in a few years' time. I can see no solution of the problem in that area except the setting up of some industries there. The cessation of turf production some couple of years ago contributed in great measure to that emigration. It gave considerable employment while it was in existence, but now the people have no option but to clear off to England. Last year there was only a few weeks' work for about ten men out of every 100, and it is one of the poorest areas in Ireland. One solution of the problem would be the establishment of turf-generating stations in the area. That project was in contemplation by the late Government and, as a matter of fact, I put the proposal before them. Plans were drawn up, and, if these were put into operation in North Mayo, it would be one solution of the emigration problem there.

Mr. Morrissey

There were no plans drawn up for that bog.

Mr. Kilroy

They were in contemplation.

Mr. Morrissey

I have made no change in the situation.

Mr. Kilroy

I put it to the Minister now that such a plant would be of benefit to that part of the country. The men, who are the best workers in the world, would be available in hundreds if they were sure of constant employment, and there is any amount of material suitable for the generation of electricity there. It is the best bog-land in Ireland and there are two or three good rivers available. I can think of no solution of the problem as good as that. In that area, you have all of Achill, Erris, and Tirawley. The Electricity Supply Board has not supplied electricity to any part of that area and if this generating station were set up, it would be a great benefit to these backward areas. If every house in that area were provided with electricity, the generating plant would pay for itself in a few years and there would then be an opportunity, which does not exist now, of setting up industries. I do not see any hope for the people of that area, except something of that description, and I ask the Minister to consider it. It would provide a means of solving the unemployment difficulties that exist in the area. Hand-won turf could also be used, together with machine-won turf, for supplying the generating station, and, in the backward areas far removed from the machines, the turf could be cut and dried by hand, rather than go to the trouble of drafting the people into the machine-won turf area. There would also be a chance of reclaiming the bog later and a lot of afforestation could be carried out on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for a different Minister. It was discussed on a previous Estimate.

Mr. Kilroy

The pier at Pickle Point, near Belmullet, was dismantled a few years ago and the disappearance of the facilities is a big handicap to the town of Belmullet and the district around Erris. I suggest that the Government should arrange for the dredging of the channel from Pickle Point Pier to Belmullet Quay. It would not cost very much, and, if the channel were dredged, it would not fill up for another 50 years at least. It is 75 years or so since it was dredged and if it were dredged now it would not fill up for 50 years. This work would enable boats to come into the pier, which is not possible at the moment. We live 40 miles from a railway station, and the Minister will understand that it is very difficult to carry merchandise over the roads in that area. It is a bog area and the roads are bad. It is very difficult to keep the roads in repair. If the work that I have suggested were carried out, a big area would be served with cheaper transport.

I would ask the Minister to consider the points that I have put to him. They are things that need to be carried out and I hope the Minister will see to it that they are carried out.

Mr. Dunne

Much of the discussion on this Estimate has centred around the very important questions of increased production and employment. In this country, as in every other country, responsible people have been urging the necessity for increased production to secure the speediest possible recovery to the situation which existed pre-war, when there was, comparatively speaking, an adequate supply of goods available. I have felt that the approaches to this problem in this country have not altogether been helpful and have not been designed to secure the best results. I have no doubt that statements made by various leading personalities on this question of production are made in good faith and with the best intentions but, personally, I feel this problem needs much closer examination and greater consideration than it seems to be getting.

On the question of turf, for instance, a statement was made by the Department of Industry and Commerce that it is impossible in certain areas to secure sufficient men to operate turf schemes and, on the other hand, we know that there still exists a very considerable unemployment problem. Nobody seems to be able to answer the question why, when work is available on bogs, men are not inclined to take it. This whole problem is bound up with the fundamental question of the system of working of Bord na Móna, particularly the question of wages and working conditions in that organisation. It is not easy in the best of circumstances to popularise amongst workers the idea of hostel life because everybody knows that it is not the most ideal form of existence but the history of this particular form of organisation of production under Bord na Móna during the years of the previous Administration was a bad history, one which left an impression on the minds of workers who were employed at one time or another with Bord na Móna which remains to a great extent unfavourable. It is true that since the advent of trade union organisation amongst turf workers, conditions in the turf camps and wages have improved. The basic reason why workers cannot be secured in sufficient number for turf schemes is that neither wages nor conditions have improved sufficiently. In order to secure production and to obtain the maximum number of men to make turf schemes effective and to develop them to the fullest extent, employment with Bord na Móna must be made an attractive proposition to the ordinary workers.

The time has passed when men will willingly accept every and any wage or every and any condition purely for the joy of exercising their muscles. I do not subscribe at all to the idea that there is any appreciable number of people in this country who do not want to work, at least, amongst the working classes. The average healthy person, especially the average Irishman, wants to work and the average Irishman is renowned throughout the globe for his ability to work and his desire to exceed the ability of men of other nations when it comes to manual labour.

The suggestion that there is a section of Irishmen, in any appreciable number, who just do not want to work but who want to get money for nothing is, I believe, totally unfounded. That may be so in the case of a relatively small fraction of the population—people who, because of long years of unemployment, have fallen into a rut and these people are to be found more in the large cities and towns than in the rural areas—but, by and large, I would say that 99 per cent., and more, perhaps, of the working class are willing and anxious to work. They want to work and to help production provided they get a decent return for the labour they put into that job. When we are talking about people who have no love for work it should be realised that a far greater number of people who have no love for work are to be found in the ranks of the class outside the working class. I refer to the people who live by the exploitation of the workers. They are the real drones. Those among the working class who find themselves mentally or physically unfitted or unable to work are no more than casualties of the economic struggle. But the other class to which I refer—the people who have lived their lives in luxury and idleness —these are the real drones of society and not the other much-abused and, I believe, unfortunate section of our people for whom so little can be done.

Then again there are very many thousands who, as has been said, are genuinely unemployed and anxious to work. In that connection I should like to explain and put forward the point of view of the average worker in regard to certain schemes of employment which are offered. I have stated that the history of Bord na Móna has not been a happy one. It is not too long ago at all since thousands of Bord na Móna workers were forced to undergo very severe privations and, in fact, near-starvation in their effort to secure the right to organise and protect themselves in a trade union and to protect their fellow-members from being dismissed unjustly. That situation is past but even if it has passed the history remains.

The idea is in the mind of many workers that employment with Bord na Móna at the present time is, as I have said before in this House, the last refuge of the damned. There is only one way of disabusing their minds of that impression and that is by creating and establishing for workers employed upon these turf schemes conditions which will be attractive and wages which will be exemplary. I understand that at the present time relatively large numbers are going into employment in certain sections of the Bord na Móna organisation, but, even so, we do not seem to have in that particular industry adequate organisation to receive them. I have heard complaints that in some cases as many as 44 men were put into one billet and that men have been handed blankets which were damp. That sort of thing is bound to create a bad impression on young men coming to work there. I think that, generally speaking, the whole organisation of Bord na Móna needs to be reviewed. I believe that turf production is the one great roadway upon which this nation can march to secure to a large degree—not to a total degree but to a large degree—a solution of the unemployment problem.

Mention has been made in this House of the stoppage of hand-won turf production. Of course, everybody knows now, despite all the shouting and ranting that went on last year about it, that the production of turf by hand on the scale and in the manner in which it was carried out during the years of the war was purely an emergency measure and one which could not be regarded as part and parcel of an up-to-date and modern economy for this country. The men who were disemployed as a result of the stoppage of that particular form of production would be the first to admit, and were the first to admit, that it was purely something that was brought about by the exigencies of the war situation. But I feel that we are not moving far enough nor fast enough in the direction of absorbing those who were disemployed by the stoppage of that particular form of production.

I do not think it is sufficient that the White Paper of 1946 should be the bible of Bord na Móna at the present time. We should go much further than that. This Government should urge Bord na Móna to plan for the day when we will have mechanised turf production on a scale sufficient to meet all the needs of the nation. I think that it can be said that, so far as turf is concerned, and particularly briquettes, there is under-production at the present time. I am a member of a local authority in this city. When that authority sought to get sufficient supplies of briquettes from Bord na Móna for the maintenance of a very large institution they found that Bord na Móna could not supply them in the quantity required. That indicates to me at any rate that there is a great deal of leeway to be made up if we are going to meet even the voluntary demand the home market will provide for that particular type of fuel.

Added to that, I believe that there is a very good case for some element of restriction in so far as the use of coal is concerned. I think that in the turf areas, and the turf areas generally have extended considerably since the war, there should be a regulation making it incumbent upon certain sections of the population—and particularly upon local authorities, or institutions or factories or industries—to utilise a certain amount of turf. Whatever the amount might be would be a matter for the Department to decide, but I think it should be a reasonable proportion of their total fuel consumption. Machine-produced turf, as distinct from the hand-won turf we had during the war years, is a very excellent form of fuel. I believe it can compare favourably, on the economic side, with coal. However, there is in the public mind a predisposition against the use of turf. That predisposition has been brought on by reason of the fact that the public in the large towns and cities were compelled, during the years of shortage, to use for fuel stuff which was not really turf at all.

I was reading the Dáil Debates the other day and I noticed that, even though Deputy Lemass tried to capitalise on the stoppage of the hand-won turf scheme last year, he indicated that during his journeyings through the country he had interviewed in Edenderry a number of hand-won turf producers who were complaining of their lot. He had told them that they themselves were partly to blame, because, in many cases, the turf which came into the city was hosed by people outside for the purpose of increasing the weight. That was undoubtedly done, as everybody knows, not in every case, but certainly in very many cases. It was a very despicable form of activity for any merchant to engage in. I have no doubt that the Tánaiste, when he made his speech some time ago referring to the profits made by people who should be behind bars, had some of these gentlemen in mind, and even on Deputy Lemass's statement these people would stand convicted,

There must be an outlay in certain areas of the country for hand-won turf. I understand that before the war there was a very considerable volume of hand-won turf produced and utilised in certain areas. Surely that market is still there for something like 3,500,000 to 4,000,000 tons. I think it is incumbent on the Department to promote, as far as they can, a new market for machine-produced turf. I understand that Bord na Móna are having certain difficulties in the matter of the provision of turf to organisations such as the Electricity Supply Board. I have been informed that the maximum price for turf paid by the Electricity Supply Board to Bord na Móna is in the neighbourhood of 38/- per ton. If that is so, in my view, it affords very little opportunity for progress for Bord na Móna. There should be some consideration, some reciprocity and some realisation of the importance of the interdependence of these industries amongst themselves. There should not be striving for the lowest possible costs, no matter what it may cost the nation, amongst industries such as these, which are, in effect, nationalised.

I also ask the Minister to give consideration to the very important question which has been mentioned during the debate of workers being given a share in management. In an address which he delivered at a manufacturer's dinner the Taoiseach said:—

"Management must be induced to attract the interest and attention of trained and educated employees to the problem. Responsibility for industry should extend beyond the managerial class to the workers. It has been found in England and elsewhere throughout the world, where a liberal and progressive view is taken of the rights of workers, that where workers are given a share in the responsibility of management and where that responsibility is added to by their being given a share in the profits which accrue from efficient management, efficiency will follow and greater production will follow."

If the Government are really anxious, as I believe they are, to secure a more enlightened relationship between management and workers, I suggest that they should give a lead in this particular matter. That can easily be done by providing for worker's representation upon Bord na Móna or the Electricity Supply Board, in the same way as was suggested by Sir James Milne that labour should be represented on the authority which will control the new nationalised transport industry when that is brought about.

There is an unanswerable case for such a step being taken. The whole world is moving in that direction with the advancement of progressive and liberal ideas. Workers are no longer relegated and will no longer allow themselves to be relegated into the position of being merely cogs in a machine, put upon earth, as is suggested in some cases, purely for the purpose of being exploited to build up profits for others. There is now a general realisation of the right of workers to a share in the wealth they produce. We in this country, in common with other nations with a forward, progressive outlook, should translate our views into action and one of the first steps in that direction would be to provide for workers' representation on these industries over which we have direct control.

It is good to see that under the aegis of the Electricity Supply Board rural electrification is being pushed ahead. In my constituency, which is on the fringe of the City of Dublin, there are very many hundreds of farmers and cottagers who are anxious to avail of this scheme. I urge the Minister to see that the scheme is gone on with, in County Dublin at any rate, at even greater speed than has been the case in the past. There is one aspect of it to which I would ask him to give his attention and that is the cost to the consumer. It has been found in the rural areas in County Dublin, that when the electricity is installed in farmers' places or cottages the cost per unit is almost 100 per cent. higher than the cost in this city. That is a very serious matter for the workers of County Dublin. The workers in the rural areas can be said to be receiving roughly 50 per cent. of the wages paid to workers in this city. Rural labourers in County Dublin receive a wage of from £3 to £3 10s. per week, while labourers in Dublin City are paid nearly twice that, if you are to take building trade employees as typical labourers. We have the situation that the rural labourer, if he wants to benefit under the rural electrification scheme, is required to pay twice the amount per unit paid by the labourer in the city. That is something which will have to be examined, because it shows an unbalanced economy; because it shows that the person who is least able to meet the expenditure is being imposed upon to a greater degree than anybody else. I would ask the Minister to look into that particular matter with a view to seeing what can be done.

Much has been said during the debate of the protection of Irish industry. We have in County Dublin some very excellent native industries. I would say that in seeking protection—and I have on occasion supported, when necessary, the requests that were made to the Minister for protection for certain industries—it should be made a test, a condition and it should be made plain that no industry will be protected by this Government unless it fulfils certain prior conditions. Those conditions should be, first of all, fair wages and fair treatment for the workers; secondly, under no circumstances should any industry producing any line of goods be allowed to charge a price for such goods which would not be within the scope of the average worker to meet. Given these two conditions then the case for protection of Irish industry is an absolute one. In my constituency it can be said that the industries which are protected and the industries which are keeping protection are examples of their kind in so far as the qualifications I have mentioned are concerned. Nothing can be said in a derogatory fashion in regard to any of these qualifications so far as they are concerned. However, I do not think that that can be said of every industry that exists in the country. I would ask the Minister when such matters come up for his consideration that he should look into and examine these particular aspects that I have mentioned. I would particularly stress the importance of ensuring that no encouragement will be given to the type of employer or employers who are seeking to enrich themselves at the cost of the ordinary worker without whom no industry could exist.

Deputy Ben Maguire, in the course of his speech, referred to the drift from the rural areas to the cities and the drift from this country to the big industrial centres across the water. That is, perhaps, one of the greatest problems that would face any Government in this country. It can be said that the drift from the rural areas is basically an economic problem and it is true, undoubtedly, that if attractive employment is provided in rural areas, workers will not be inclined to leave. That is the fundamental reason why workers go in large masses, but there is something more to it than that. In this respect I realise that the Minister may not have any particular function. As well as the need of provision for employment in rural areas there is a definite need for making rural life more attractive. That is a matter I will refer to when the opportunity presents itself in another way. Until such time as we have industry decentralised and spread as far as possible throughout the country and until such time as small industries are encouraged sufficiently in rural areas and, where necessary, started directly by the Government on a nationalised basis, we cannot hope to beat this problem of the drift from rural areas.

It is undoubtedly beyond question that the City of Dublin at the present time is top-heavy with population. All through the war years we had thousands of our youth, young men and young women, passing through the city on their way to England. Some of them returned after a period and went no further than the City of Dublin. The housing situation was worsened and the population increased tremendously during those years so that at the present time, for a city of its size, its population is entirely out of proportion. It seems to me that that position is likely to continue unless we can develop, through the Department of Industry and Commerce, a scheme whereby young people living in rural areas will be encouraged to remain at home and educated in the advantages which rural life undoubtedly has over city life. In many cases that particular knowledge does not come to those people until it is too late, until they find themselves very settled down, in many cases in slum tenements, and unable to rehabilitate themselves in the places of their origin.

Again I would say that, basically, the question is an economic one, a question purely of wages and of working conditions for the people of rural Ireland. It may be that Irish agriculture may develop sufficiently to relieve this problem somewhat, but I have the feeling that, with the increase of population, agriculture will not be sufficient to solve the problem in its entirety. We do need the promotion of rural industry and we need it very badly. I do not think we have yet seen adequate appreciation of that need or adequate attempts by any Government, so far, on a sufficiently large scale to secure a solution of that problem.

I would ask the Minister, also, if he can indicate to us when we may expect to have the findings of the Commission on Youth Unemployment, which is likewise a very important and a very serious matter. The unemployment of youth, which is so widespread to-day and which has almost become a permanent feature, it would seem, of the social set-up in this country, is one of the most serious problems that can be found in the country. It is the prelude to emigration. The dissatisfaction which unemployment brings and the unhealthy mental conditions which it generates bring about a feeling of disregard for this country amongst the youth. Unemployment amongst youth is bound to create a certain cynicism which eventually finds an outlet in their travelling out of the country altogether and in many cases never returning. It has been said by every Deputy—it cannot be said too often, because perhaps the oftener it is said the more chance there is of having something done about it—that it is undoubtedly true that we have to find means to stop the haemorrhage of emigration.

I believe, and I am convinced, that the members of the Opposition know in their hearts that they should be the last to talk about emigration or to deride the Government or try to impose the responsibility on this Government for emigration. Emigration has been a feature of Irish life ever since the Famine year. Year after year it has gone on. In some periods it has come in cycles and has been heavier than in previous periods, but it has been a permanent feature. We have got to find an answer and a solution to it, and the answer and the solution to emigration is primarily, I believe, the provision of work at attractive wages and under attractive conditions at home. If we are to do that, and if we are to provide that employment—and we can do it if there is a determination to do it—we can only do it in one way, and that is by securing the redistribution of the wealth of the country in a Christian manner so as to ensure that we will not have on the one hand extreme poverty and on the other hand extreme riches. It may be said that the only answer to that is taxation. If we can secure that and stop emigration by taxation, then I am all for it.

Éamon Ó Cíosáin

Ba mhaith liom beagán a rá ar an meastachán so. Tá fhios agam go bhfuil a lán ráite ag Teachtaí eile agus ná fuil mórán fágtha le cur fé dhíospóireacht agus ní mian liom dul siar ró-mhór ar na rudaí go bhfuil tagairt déanta dhóibh cheana.

Is cúis sásamh dúinn go léir a fháil amach go bhfuil déantúisí na tíre seo ag dul ar aghaidh agus go bhfuil obair le fáil anois ag cuid mhaith don de mhuintir na tíre iontu. Tá súil agam go scaipfear na tionscail feasta ar fuaid na tíre agus ná déanfar dearmad ar an nGaeltacht, mar is dóigh liom na fuil aon tslí cheart eile chun na daoine a choimeád ag baile sa Ghaeltacht ach obair a thabhairt dóibh ann agus is mar sin a bheimid ag cabhrú leis an dteangain.

Maidir le ceal oibre agus maidir le ceist na himirce, is mó go mór atá na ceisteanna san ag goiliúint ar shaol na tíre seo ná mar a bhí riamh agus is léir dúinn anois ná fuil aon leigheas ag lucht an Rialtais ar na galair sin fé mar a dúradar a bhí sar ar thógadar cúram an Rialtais orthu féin. Geallúintí bréige a thugadar uathu maidir leis na ceisteanna san.

Having listened to Deputy Dunne on the question of emigration and also on the question of unemployment, I must come to the conclusion that the ideas of those now sitting on the Government side about these things have changed entirely since they went to that side of the House. Deputy Dunne has stated that he regards emigration as a normal feature of Irish life, but Deputy Dunne, and the other Deputies who sit beside him, did not so regard it in the last general election, and before that, when they gave us all to understand that they had a ready remedy for the evils of emigration and unemployment.

Mr. Morrissey

Of course, he did not say that.

Mr. Kissane

He said that emigration was a normal feature of Irish life.

Mr. Morrissey

He did not.

Mr. Kissane

If I can understand words properly——

Mr. Traynor

He led us to believe it was part of Irish life.

Mr. Kissane

A normal feature of Irish life. That is very far from the statements that used to be made by the gentlemen opposite before they took office.

It is very gratifying to know from the speech and from the figures given to us by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that industrial production here is in the ascendant. It is now an established fact that Irish industries can be fostered here, and that goods can be turned out here just as well as they can in any other country in the world. The position whereby employment is provided for 184,000 people in industries in this country did not come about overnight, nor did it come about in one year. It has been the direct result of the careful planning and fostering of those industries by the Fianna Fáil Government over a number of years. There is no doubt about that. It is also very satisfactory to know that many of the people who were inclined to condemn these Irish industries have now come to regard them as a normal growth in this country. I think that a great deal of credit is due to these people, to those industrialists who put their capital into these industries when there were so many opportunities for the investment of it elsewhere. I would think that those Irish industrialists deserve better of politicians here than to be branded as rogues and profiteers, as they were by the Minister for Social Welfare in the speech that he made at Naas.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

That is not so.

Mr. Kissane

That is so.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Give the quotation.

Mr. Kissane

I need not give the quotation, because everybody knows he made that speech.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Estimate of the Minister for Social Welfare is not before us, the Estimate for the Minister for Industry and Commerce is.

Mr. Kissane

At the same time, I would regard his reference as being connected with the Department of Industry and Commerce. I would like to know from the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he has investigated this matter, if he has investigated the allegation that was made by the Minister for Social Welfare when he said that certain industrialists here lined their pockets at the expense of the Irish people and that they were fit subjects to be behind the bars in Mountjoy?

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Certainly.

Mr. Kissane

I think it is the duty of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to investigate that allegation.

Mr. Morrissey

Do not press me too hard.

Mr. Kissane

I am pressing the Minister now——

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Some of those subscribed to your funds.

Mr. Kissane

——to give to the Dáil details of the way in which these industrialists did line their pockets, and I challenge the Minister to give those details to the House.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

The men who gave you £50,000 to fight the election.

Mr. Kissane

I am not referring to those at all.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

We are.

Mr. Kissane

I am referring to the industrialists who, the Minister for Social Welfare said, had lined their pockets at the expense of the Irish people. He even went as far as to say that he had seen their balance sheets. I wonder has the Minister for Industry and Commerce seen their balance sheets?

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Anyone can see them by going down to a public office.

Mr. Kissane

If the Minister has not carried out some investigation into this matter, it is proof positive that there was no foundation at all for the charge. Reference has been made to this Industrial Development Authority. I do not know exactly what function that body is going to carry out in relation to industry here. The Minister has not told us; nobody has told us. In fact, I regard the setting up of that body as so much humbug. I advise the Minister, before he introduces legislation to give those people futile powers, to scrap the idea holus-bolus. I do not see how they can give advice better than the experts in the Department over which the Minister presides.

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy confesses that he does not know why this body has been set up or what powers will be given them; he does not know anything about them, but yet he seems to know enough to condemn them.

Mr. Kissane

I should like the Minister to give us some information about them. If the Minister cannot tell us exactly what their powers and functions will be, then that is proof positive that they will be a futile body.

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy says he knows nothing about them, but still he proceeds to condemn them.

Mr. Kissane

We all would like to know something about them, but we have not been given any information yet. I am not a great believer in commissions and advisory bodies.

Mr. Morrissey

You did not do too badly.

Mr. Kissane

If we take the Commission on Emigration as an example of this we can easily realise the futility of commissions and advisory bodies.

Mr. Morrissey

Do not bring them in on my Estimate.

Mr. Kissane

As far as information given to us about their deliberations goes, for all the Commission on Emigration is doing, or have done, they might as well be deliberating in Timbuctoo.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister had nothing to do with the setting up of that commission.

Mr. Kissane

The Minister told us that £30,000,000 came into this country from the tourist industry, some of it through the medium of dollars. That is a very big sum and everything should be done further to encourage the tourist industry. I do not know that the Government are doing all they could do, advertising our holiday resorts and scenery abroad such as has been done in countries like Switzerland over the years.

I do not know whether the Government have decided to nationalise the transport of this country. Though the question has been mooted we have got no clear statement on the matter. Personally, I do not think nationalisation will improve transport here any more than in countries where the system has been adopted. Perhaps the Minister will tell us in unequivocal language whether they have decided to nationalise Córas Iompair Éireann. I do not think the Government have handled the situation with regard to Córas Iompair Éireann as they might since they came into office.

Mr. Morrissey

You are a brave man.

Mr. Kissane

The Government knew this company was suffering losses and they did nothing about it. They also knew the only way to put the company on its feet was to give it authority to raise the fares. The Minister did not do that; instead, he brought over an expert who recommended that fares should be increased. The Minister knew that before the inquiry was held; everybody here knew it was a question of finance. As regards Córas Iompair Éireann, I will say that there is great credit due to those who manage it for the way in which they carried on during the emergency. They carried on extremely well in very difficult circumstances. Very little coal came in and that little was very inferior in quality, but still they managed to keep the services going.

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy might leave that matter over until the Bill is introduced.

Mr. Kissane

I want to pay a tribute to them for what they did. I do not like the way in which the shares of the company have been handled. I am not sure whether I am entitled to refer to that at this stage.

Mr. Morrissey

Perhaps the Deputy might leave that over until the Bill is introduced, which will be very soon.

Mr. Kissane

I am quite prepared to do so. Deputy Dunne referred to turf and it is only natural that I and Deputies like me who live in the turf areas are very interested in this matter. I am very glad to know that the Government are continuing the development of the machine-won turf industry and that they at least have become turf-minded. While I welcome the idea of developing machine-won turf, I would at the same time advise the Government to investigate further the possibility of developing hand-won turf. One would imagine by the way Deputy Dunne and other Deputies spoke that there is no hope at all for the development of hand-won turf. I do not subscribe to that at all. I think a lot can be done to find a market for hand-won turf. I remember last year the Minister for Local Government intimated that he was giving instructions to local authorities all over the country to see to it that turf should be used in public institutions as much as possible. I do not know if the local authorities carried out the Minister's recommendation—I am afraid that in some cases they did not.

It would be well if this Government would take that matter up again with the local authorities, because I consider it a shame to see coal being burned in public institutions adjacent to bogs where turf could very well be used instead. The purchase of coal is a great drain on this country. Any amount of money is going out for the purchase of that expensive fuel. If we could lessen the consumption of coal here we would be doing a good day's work for the country; we would keep the money at home and we would find a market for those people who would engage actively in the hand-won turf industry if they thought they would find such a market. I ask the Minister to consider the hand-won turf industry as opposed to machine-won turf, because I think there are possibilities in hand-won turf if they were properly explored. Every bog in this country is in my opinion a potential industry.

I would like to refer to the dredging of Dingle Harbour. Representations have been made to the Minister and to his Department and also to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in connection with the dredging of Dingle Harbour. The Dingle fishermen find it very hard to take out their boats at times owing to the silting that has taken place in the harbour and I hope the Minister, when he has time, will investigate this matter because it is of vital importance for the Dingle fishermen to have the siltage removed.

I should also like to mention the drawing of sand from the Ballybunion foreshore.

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy knows an inquiry was held into that matter. A report has been presented and it is under consideration in the Department at the moment. I am not in a position to say anything about it just now.

Mr. Kissane

When will the result of the consideration of the report be published?

Mr. Morrissey

I could not give the Deputy an exact date, but it will not be very long until it is published.

Mr. Kissane

Very good. That is all I have to say.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

There are some comments I would like to make in relation to this Estimate. As a country Deputy I welcome the Minister's numerous statements evidencing his desire to see industries fostered in rural Ireland. I was interested in the remarks made by Deputy Dunne with regard to what he described as the "top heavy" condition of Dublin City vis-a-vis the rest of the country. We all appreciate the truth of his remarks. Many people in the last 16 or 17 years have been conscious of the fact that with a dwindling population the only part of the country which shows a consistent increase in population has been the City of Dublin, and perhaps one or two other cities as well. That trend is a very unhealthy one so far as the country is concerned.

There are various things which might be done to cope with that trend and there are various steps which might be considered but the most practicable step that can be taken is to make employment available to young people in the country so that they will not seek employment in Dublin or, indeed, cross-Channel. I welcome the Minister's statement with regard to that matter. He is a country Deputy and it is a welcome change to find in charge of Industry and Commerce a man representing the rural areas and who was born and bred there. I think that from the present Minister will come the necessary drive to ensure that good sound industries are fostered in the rural areas.

In that connection, I welcome the establishment of the Industrial Development Authority. I think it is important that at the first meeting of that authority the Minister should have stated specifically his view of one of its most important functions; that is, the development of industries in rural Ireland. The establishment of that authority is a step in the right direction. I do not think Deputy Kissane could have been serious when he stated —this may presumably be taken as the Fianna Fáil view, though it is difficult to find the Fianna Fáil view in anything—that this development authority should be scrapped. I do not think he could have been serious in that, because if that is his considered opinion, I do not believe that he will be very welcome in his own constituency when he sees the results of some of the activities of this authority once it gets under way. The purpose of this authority is not merely to advise the Minister on industrial development, but to survey the industrial needs of the country and to advise him, so far as lies in his power, to foster industries away from the city. I hope that one of the first matters considered by this authority will be the establishment of a linen industry. I know that there are considerable difficulties to be surmounted if such an industry is to be established. I hope, however, that that will be one of the enterprises considered by this authority as one of its principal aims in justification of its existence. We have talked a good deal about Partition. One very effective way of ending Partition would be the establishment of a linen industry which would make those supported by such an industry in the North at present anxious to join with us here.

I do not know whether the Minister referred to the establishment of a wool-combing industry in his opening statement. We have heard many rumours about such an industry. The need for such an industry is great and the possibility of success is high. With the assistance of the Minister it should be possible to establish such an industry. Perhaps when he is concluding he will give us some information as to the likelihood of such an industry coming into operation here. May I express the hope that that industry will be established away from the City of Dublin?

Mr. Butler

I hope not. I hope it will be right here in Dublin.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

In that regard I want to advocate the needs of my own constituency. We have in Tullamore a very important industry—Salts (Ireland) Limited—and a wool-combing industry would be an important adjunct to that. The employment potential would be high and its success would be assured. It would encourage our people to remain in the country by giving them some assurance of a decent existence.

Certain Fianna Fáil Deputies, during the course of this debate, blandly stated that they welcomed the conversion of the Minister to industrial development. I do not propose to chase that particular hare, but I would like to remind Fianna Fáil Deputies who hold that particular view that many of those industries which saw us safely through the emergency were commenced long before the country ever heard of Fianna Fáil. The industry which provides us with light and power was established despite the determined efforts of members of the Fianna Fáil opposition at that time. The sugar industry was commenced despite the propaganda directed at it by both Deputy Lemass and Deputy MacEntee who described it and the Shannon scheme as "white elephants." When we hear that type of patronising nonsense coming from Fianna Fáil we are tempted to rake over the cinders of the past and remind them of what they said on various occasions when they were on the Opposition Benches before. The Fine Gael attitude in regard to industry has always been a very clear and definite one. We have always stood for industrial development. We have always believed, as a Party that derived from Sinn Féin, that we must develop our own resources by our own efforts and under the care and protection of a native Government. Believing that, our policy nevertheless rested on three essential conditions which must be observed in relation to any industry fostered or protected in this country. These conditions, quite incidentally, have been mentioned already in this debate by Deputy Dunne.

We want to see, in the first place, that any industry established here produces a good article. That is a very necessary demand and it is not in any way an impossible demand. We have also stipulated that any industry protected by an Irish Government, in addition to producing a good article, must sell that article at a fair price to the Irish consumer. I do not think that that is in any way an impossible condition, but it is one that was overlooked from time to time in the early days of Fianna Fáil when, in the interests of giving tariffs to certain sections and certain people here, they left the unfortunate poor people of this country to pay the price.

Mr. Butler

And to obtain employment.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Employment was of very little good if they had to pay four or five times what they formerly paid for that particular article. That condition is not impossible of attainment in this country. I know many potential entrepreneurs in this country who could, provided they are given a chance of starting industries here, produce as good an article as any foreign industrialist and sell it at least as cheaply in this country.

Mr. Butler

Perfectly true.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

We, in Fine Gael, do lay down that articles produced here under the protection of the Government must be sold at a fair price to the consumer. We do agree, as I think many Deputies will appreciate, that a fair price for an Irish article need not necessarily be a price lower than or equal to the price of the imported article. In many cases industries started here will for a period find it necessary to charge a price slightly more than the cost of the imported article but the Government should insist that any industry established here should be able to assure the Government that after the development stage has been passed—be it a period of three, four or five years or whatever it may be—it will eventually be able to produce a good article at a fair price to the consumer here. I think that is a very necessary and fair stipulation to lay down.

The third condition that we put forward is that the conditions of labour in industries protected should be fair and reasonable. I do not think that anybody can suggest that that condition is one which should not be insisted upon by the Government or by any responsible political Party because it is important to remember that the mere fact of giving employment it not of itself a justification for the establishment of an industry here. Any potential industrialist who thinks that merely by giving 60 or 70 jobs under sweated labour conditions he should get a medal from the State and be surrounded by a halo for the rest of his life, has another "think" coming. That was a mentality that was very common in England at the beginning of the industrial revolution there. We do not want that mentality in this country. Any person who gets protection from the State here towards fostering an industry, while he does himself fulfil a service in playing a part in the industrial development of the country, nevertheless enters on that enterprise because he is going to make money out of it. If he is not going to make money out of it he is not going to put his capital into it and if he expects to get money from the industry by reason of State protection, then the least the State must demand from him is that the conditions under which he employs labour are at least fair and such as any Christian State would approve of. These are the conditions our Party have insisted upon in relation to industrial development. Let no member of the Party opposite be under any misapprehension as to what our policy was and what our policy is. There was never any question of our Party or any member of it being in any way opposed to the industrial development of the country.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is the policy of the Minister we have to discuss.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

When I mention our Party, I mean, naturally, the Minister against whom this particular charge has been made. There again was the charge made by Deputies opposite—apparently made in the belief that if you repeat a thing often enough somebody will be bound to believe it—that there was doubt and uncertainty in industrial circles as to the Minister's attitude towards industry. I think that has already been dealt with. If anything has been made clear in the last 14 or 15 months by the Minister, it is that his aim is to encourage in every way possible the establishment of proper industries here and to encourage Irish industries generally. I think that I need say no more about that particular aspect of the contributions from the Opposition Benches.

Deputy Kissane and others have dealt with the question of emigration. I should like to say, speaking from my own point of view and I know also from the point of view of many other Deputies supporting the Government, that there is none of us who is in any way complacent about the question of emigration. No Deputy or no Party supporting the Government in any way forgets the gravity of the problem of emigration and the urgent necessity for dealing with it and, if possible, solving it. But we resent that from the ranks of the Party opposite, not only here in this House but throughout the country, should come the fable that emigration commenced in February, 1948, in Ireland. That is the fable they are spinning round the country and endeavouring to make people believe.

We know, and I think the country appreciates, that emigration was left to the present Government as a direct legacy from Fianna Fáil. When Fianna Fáil took office there was no emigration in this country, none whatsoever. In the year 1932 more people came into this country than left it, and for the first time in Irish history a native Government—any Government—was given, as far as emigration is concerned, a clean bill of health. It only took Fianna Fáil 16 years to undo that and one of their most notable achievements was to give us emigration. We believe that we will hear less and less of emigration from members of the Party opposite. I know that they speak with 67 different voices on every topic nowadays, but emigration is not something that we are going to forget. As I understand the policy of the Minister—and I know it is the view of Deputies here—we are committed to solving, or to making progress towards the solution of, the problem of emigration. Undoubtedly there will be mistakes in the way it will be tackled and perhaps failures, but I think the country generally appreciates the goodwill of the Government towards the solution of that problem and appreciates also that it is not possible in a period of six months to undo the harm of 16 years.

I do not want to delay the House any longer, but I would like to congratulate the Minister on the progress he has made during the last 12 months. Industrial production has increased. I think it is due to the Minister to say that for the first time since 1938 as a result of his efforts a market has been found in England for Irish industrial goods. As a result of his efforts and the efforts of the Government only 12 months ago, a completely new market has been given to Irish industrialists. They have been given the opportunity of finding a profitable market for increased and increasing production. That is something they did not have before the change of Government and that they would not have had if there had not been a change of Government. I hope that industrialists and those people who, from time to time on their behalf throw their eyes up to Heaven and talk about doubt and uncertainty, will at least remember that. I trust also that the Irish industrialist will be able to rise to the occasion and avail of the opportunity the Minister has given him. Progress has been made in increasing industrial production and I know that with the efforts of the Minister it will continue during the coming 12 months. I think the Minister deserves the praise of this House and the country for the considerable good work he has done during the last 12 months.

Mr. Butler

Deputy Connolly is reported in the Irish Press of the 1st June as follows:—

"Deputy Connolly said he noted with regret and dislike adverse references to the unemployed, and it seemed that there was a revival of the mentality which looked upon the unemployed as shirkers and which referred scathingly to their disinclination to work.

It seemed that that mentality had been revived, whether to escape responsibility or because a solution of the problem could not be achieved by those who indulged in this type of remark, he did not know. One might take comfort from the slight improvement in industrial output, but there was no room for complacency. There were portents in other parts of the world which showed us that we could not live in a watertight compartment. The figure of 84,000 unemployed distributed over the area was, in itself, a warning of the gravity of the situation. If the position worsened and if it led to marches on the Dáil or on Dublin in the coming winter, it would be of great concern to one section of the Government, at least"

I hope that there will be no such thing as a march on Dublin, a march on the Dáil, but it is a very disturbing thing to find a responsible leader of labour envisaging the mere possibility. We have been assured that the various groups that go to make up the present Government have a plan for the immediate employment of people in gainful industry but we find nevertheless that we have a register of 84,000 unemployed.

Mr. Morrissey

Where did the Deputy get that figure?

Mr. Butler

I am quoting Deputy Connolly, and if he was wrong he was not corrected.

Mr. Morrissey

He should have been.

Mr. Butler

We find that the Minister is more inclined to correct persons on this side of the House than on the other, but that figure has been quoted by many speakers and I take it that it is right. Previous to this debate I had in mind the figure 80,000.

Mr. Morrissey

It is 64,000, only a difference of 20,000.

Mr. Butler

However that may be, my means of judging the state of unemployment is by what I actually find in my own area, and I can assure the House—and it is no pleasure to me to be able to do so—that never have so many people come to me with stories of unemployment and distress as during the past year.

Mr. Rooney

Where were you in 1940?

Mr. Butler

As far as my observation goes, that is what I find in my own constituency.

I was disappointed when, with regard to the possibility of a linen industry, Deputy O'Higgins expressed the hope that that new industry will be located in the country. I quite agree that the dispersal of industry throughout the country is extremely necessary and is very good policy, but Dublin has increased its population during the last 25 years to such an extent that it is a real tragedy when there is unemployment in this city. Probably the hardship endured by an unemployed city person is much worse than the hardship endured by an unemployed country person.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Does the Deputy want to take everything from the country?

Mr. Butler

No, but for this particular industry Dublin would be more suited than anywhere else. Right in the south-west Dublin area there is ready at hand what might be the nucleus of a very fine linen industry. Of all industries I would welcome this one most, as we could reply in a very effective way to an injustice that was done to us all recently, if we had a flourishing linen industry established in this part of the country.

I agree with Deputy Connolly when he says it is not fair or right that workers should be criticised as slackers or that the unemployed be told, in a word, that they are so because they are unwilling to accept work. No doubt there is a very small minority who are not willing to work for a fair wage or even for a good wage, but the very great majority are more than willing, they are extremely eager, to obtain work at even moderately fair conditions of payment and of treatment. That is something I have always found. The thing the average honest decent worker dreads most in all the world is unemployment. It is hardly fair to speak of these people as trying to avoid work, being unwilling to accept work at fair wages and decent conditions. I do not really think that anyone ever put it with the intention of conveying that idea, but unfortunately that impression got around and has caused a great deal of resentment.

There is a tendency recently to divert much of the criticism that was poured out for some years past on our industrialists towards the workers. That is a great pity. For some years we had the most scathing and unjust criticism poured on our industrialists, to such an extent that I am afraid the very name of Irish goods was damaged considerably. It will take a great deal of propaganda to win back the good name that was lost for Irish products by the extremely unjust propaganda carried on here for some years past. It is true to say that there is doubt and hesitation in the minds of industrialists about investing capital in Irish industry. If they are told one day that they are heartless profiteers, it is very little good if they are paid strong compliments at a social function the next day. When you have alternate praise and blame as a constant feature, it is certain to produce that doubt and hesitancy which is very apparent. The only result of that kind of criticism is to make both employer and employee dissatisfied.

It is tremendously necessary that our workers should get a fair wage and good conditions of employment. I entirely agree with Deputy O'Higgins in that. People talk about the necessity for social services, for provision against old age and against want in old age. These are good provisions, but equally necessary is the provision of security in employment. I have seen the result of strikes reflected in my own area in the school children. There is nothing more terrible than widespread unemployment, and that is why I hold it is wrong to say our working-class people, employed or unemployed, are unwilling to accept work.

Mr. Morrissey

I hope the Deputy will be here when I am replying.

Mr. Butler

I will try to be. There is nothing our people dread so much as unemployment.

Mr. Morrissey

You were very silent about it for 16 years.

Mr. Butler

It is very necessary that their conditions of work and general treatment should be good. I think there have been great improvements over a number of years, but undoubtedly there have been terrible abuses in the capitalist system. It is very likely that many of those abuses still hold and, if they persist, they will make our workers discontented, and these abuses will give a foothold to an even worse thing, Communism, in this country. We must all unite in trying to prevent that. I think the workers should be given some share in the management and the profits of industrial concerns and some voice on the boards of these concerns. That is a personal opinion, and I give it because I am convinced that if they had these privileges, they would be much more contented and could do a good deal to prevent the unnecessary lock-outs which unfortunately occur in industry from time to time. I think it should be a satisfactory thing all round.

Some Deputy suggested that these people should form themselves into companies and establish industries themselves. That is not a fair thing to ask them to do. We all know that the raw materials on which practically all our industries depend are controlled outside this country, controlled by foreigners, and, if capitalists were in any way threatened by such a move, they would see to it that any industry or concern set on foot by workers would not have a snowball's chance in hell of survival. They would see to it that raw materials were not made available to them and that probably even necessary machinery would not be made available to them. Such an experiment as that could only be successful if it had a central State-controlled purchasing board for the purchase of raw materials and the distribution of raw materials in such a way that if any abuse arose it could be brought up here and dealt with in open Parliament. Then an experiment of that sort might possibly succeed.

There is one other matter which I should like to clear up, arising out of the references by Deputy Dockrell to the central bus station. Deputy Dockrell is a Deputy for whom I have very much admiration. He is a sincere and truthful man, but I think he slipped up a little or his memory played him false with regard to that bus station. The Deputy is reported in the Irish Press of 1st June as saying:—

"It should be pointed out that the corporation never approved of the site of the new Córas Iompair Éireann bus station. A pistol was put at the heads of the Dublin Corporation. The Town Planning Committee of the corporation and the consultant were against it. A different site had been suggested by the consultant in his report."

It is true that a different site was suggested and even approved by the corporation, but the corporation members got the views of traffic authorities and other experts which led them to change their mind with regard to the station, its location and structure. No member of the Dublin Corporation is aware of any pistol ever being put at his head.

Perhaps I may quote the report that changed the views of many members of the corporation and made them decide on the present site. It is very long and I do not wish to detain the House, but it is a communication from Patrick Abercrombie, M.A., F.R.I.B.A., P.P.T.P.I., planning consultant, which was submitted to the Dublin Corporation by a Committee of the whole House on 6th May, 1946. He refers first to the original plans and then goes on to say:—

"Since these proposals were made in the competition design, several new factors have come into operation. In the first place, there does not seem to be any prospect of the railway bridge being removed with practical limits of time. Secondly, it has been decided that, for traffic purposes, it is essential to bring Amiens Street into the crescent on a curve in a contrary direction. Thirdly, it has been decided that the first important building to be erected as part of this surround should be the bus terminal station,—a building of totally different function and character to that of offices or even warehouse blocks.

In my opinion, these three factors change the position completely, and it is necessary to regard this first building for the bus station from a completely new angle. It is a modern building required principally for traffic use, and also as a large office block to house the staff of the road transport system of Córas Iompair Éireann. A large building, part of which will have to be 100 feet high, is, therefore, called for. When I examined the designs in September, that were deposited for town planning permission, I came to the conclusion that the architect, Mr. Michael Scott, had solved this very difficult problem in a bold and satisfactory manner."

He concludes as follows:—

"To sum up, I think that this building, designed in the form of a letter ‘L' with the higher portion facing on to the new part of Amiens Street, the lower part towards the Custom House, with a courtyard in between the two wings, is the right solution for the treatment of a building for these purposes on this site. A very rough model has been made by Mr. Scott. I have examined the effect of the building by means of this model, and, lofty though it will be, I think it will read with the rebuilding that will ultimately take place in the neighbourhood of Amiens Street Station, and will not seriously conflict with the silhouette of the Custom House, as seen from the Liffey."

The matter was considered by the council and the motion was carried at a meeting held on Monday, 7th October, 1946.

A tremendous amount of hostile criticism has been levelled against this particular building. I have heard it described as an ibex.

Mr. Morrissey

Not in this debate.

Mr. Butler

I have heard it described as everything bad, as a matter of fact, but there is a very high authority and I think that opinion should weigh a great deal. There is another thing. The surroundings there will change very soon. A great number of the old standing houses will be removed and the building will be seen from a different aspect altogether. In its present raw state I do not think it is very fair or reasonable to criticise it as it has been criticised.

An Ceann Comhairle

I did not hear any criticism of it in this debate.

Mr. Butler

I did not hear criticism of it in this debate, but I did hear criticism of it.

Mr. Morrissey

There is no money for it in this Estimate.

Mr. Butler

Without breaking any confidence, I think the Minister himself has not been one bit complimentary to that particular building.

Mr. Morrissey

As the American said, you ain't heard nothing yet.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no money for it here.

Mr. Butler

I do not expect to hear anything that will change my mind very much about the thing. It is extremely badly needed. It will cater for the city extremely well when it comes into operation.

Mr. Morrissey

If.

Mr. Butler

Things will be much more comfortable for travellers and for people who use our transport system, and better in every way. In point of cost, if the thing were to be done to-morrow I do not believe that the present Government, or any other Government, would be able to get it done at a less cost than has been incurred. With regard to accommodation, I believe that, big and costly as it is, it will not more than half solve our difficulties with regard to the housing of transport. I think the present Government, if, by any miracle, they survive another year, will find it increasingly necessary to have a second station. Probably it will be found that the advice to have a station at Wood Quay is very good, sound advice.

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy would not suggest that we should put it on O'Connell Bridge, would he?

Mr. Butler

The two will be very necessary.

Mr. Morrissey

Would the Deputy like to see it on O'Connell Bridge?

Mr. Rooney

Would the Deputy adopt the suggestion of the Irish Press, to put the Guards in it?

Mr. Butler

I do not see the relevance of that remark.

An Ceann Comhairle

Interruptions are rarely relevant.

Mr. Butler

Very true. I do not approach this debate in any hostile or carping spirit. Quite the opposite. I like fair criticism, and we would accomplish much more if criticism were fair and reasonable. It pains me very much to think of the damage that has been done to our tourist trade by the shockingly unfair and unjust criticism that was carried on here for years. It pains me to think of the damage done to the good name of Irish-produced articles by the unfair criticism that was carried on. For that reason I would not dream of indulging in unfair and unjust criticism. If I may express one hope, it is that when the Minister is replying he will not treat us to a facetious speech or to a species of music-hall entertainment. I hope he will give a reasoned, fair and just answer to the points of criticism that have come, at least, from this side of the House.

Mr. Cogan

I think the Minister can hardly complain because, in the main, this debate has been conducted in a fairly reasonable spirit, and Party spirit has not influenced the expression of opinion to any great extent on either side of the House. Credit for that is due to the Minister in the first place for his introductory statement and to the ex-Minister for Industry and Commerce who opened the debate for the Opposition.

One of the most satisfactory results of the change of Government is that never again will industrial development in this country be associated with one Party. It is bad for industry generally that it should be tied up with the fortunes of one Party. It is bad that the public should believe that industrialists as a class are associated entirely with one Party. The events of the past year have shown that all Parties in this House are determined that the industrial arm shall be developed to the fullest extent and any force that arises to destroy the industrial arm will have to reckon with the united resistance of all sections of the community. That is a satisfactory position and it is an advance as far as our national economic position is concerned. One of the outstanding events of the past year was the institution by the Minister of a nation-wide drive to popularise Irish industrial products. Whatever we may say about the advantages of protection by Governmental measures—by tariffs or by quotas—the best protection that industry can have is the goodwill and enthusiastic support of the entire population. I have said in this House before, and I think it is a fundamental fact which does not seem to be generally appreciated, that no force in human relationship is as strong as the force of class prejudice. Industrialists are a small section of the community. I suppose it is natural that other people engaged in other occupations should feel a certain prejudice against them. I have encountered in towns and cities a fairly substantial prejudice against the farming community and, on the other hand, I know that both the farming community and the industrial community have a fairly deep prejudice against the legal profession. Why that should be so I do not know but it is a fact that has to be faced, and it is a fact that, as far as industrial development is concerned, has got to be overcome.

I think Deputy Dunne, in the course of a very well-reasoned speech, quite unconsciously, perhaps, acknowledged some of the class prejudice which is probably present in every human mind. Speaking of the unemployed who are unwilling to accept employment, he said that they are only a very small section of the total number of unemployed and that they are, in the main, victims of circumstances. He went on to say that the other section of the unemployed, the rich unemployed, who are unwilling to do useful work, are the real drones of society. He might have overcome a little class prejudice by suggesting that, perhaps, they also are the victims of their environment and of their upbringing. We have to realise that in every section of the community there are people who are able and willing to give of their best to the community and that all they want is a lead. Amongst the vast army of unemployed there are tens of thousands of the best of our people. I think it is right and proper that nothing should be said which would indicate that the general working community, and that section of the community who are able to support themselves by their own efforts, regard the unemployed as criminals. During the past few weeks references were made to the unwillingness of certain people who are on the register of unemployed to accept work that is offered to them. If we are to make progress in this country in the matter of productive development it is essential that any citizen who receives unemployment assistance should be willing to accept work when it is offered to him. But in that connection the conditions must be reasonably fair.

If, for example, a man in the extreme south of the country is unemployed it is hardly fair and reasonable to offer him employment for a fortnight or three weeks in the west or in the north. We must endeavour to look on matters of this kind in an impartial and reasonable way. Having regard to the fact that in the industry under the Bord na Móna organisation there is a considerable amount of work available, it is essential that human conditions should be carefully considered. If men employed in that organisation feel they have some grievances, as was suggested by Deputy Dunne, these grievances should be very carefully investigated. Matters apart altogether from wages are very important. For instance, the type of hostels, the type of sleeping accommodation and the type of food are all matters of supreme importance and they are matters which are very often overlooked when an organisation or a public body is dealing with large numbers of men.

I think that while much has been stated about the need for co-operation between the workers and the employers, and the sharing of profits, it is even more important that there should be close consultation between those in control of large industries and the workers. In that way the ordinary little grievances, apart altogether from questions of wages or conditions of employment, would be thoroughly understood by those in control. I have been speaking to some people who have worked in large industries in Great Britain. They have told me that they were amazed at the thought and the consideration that was displayed by the managements of those industries for the welfare of the workers. I am not trying to claim that everything on the other side is perfect because I do not believe that it is. However, I would say that we could learn quite a lot from the best-managed industries on the other side. That is an important consideration, having regard to the development of the turf industry—and I think that that is one of the industries which has a big future and which is capable of very wide expansion. When men are herded together in temporary accommodation, such as in hostels, there is always a danger of a certain amount of injustice and there is always a certain tendency to agitate because men away from their homes for the first time are inclined to feel discontented. Therefore, their ordinary human grievances should be considered. Further, if we regard the turf industry as a permanent industry there will be need for Bord na Móna, either on its own initiative or in co-operation with the local authorities, to provide housing accommodation adjacent to their work for turf workers and their families. That ought to be a matter of long-term planning and it should be looked into.

I have a feeling that there is not a great future for the hand-won turf industry. I think that, eventually, it must give way to mechanised turf production. The Minister should do everything possible to encourage the mechanisation of smaller bogs if Bord na Móna does not do so. It may not be the type of work which Bord na Móna would undertake but it could be undertaken by other companies. Turf production in the smaller bogs should be mechanised. I think there is a future for that particular branch of enterprise and it ought to be pushed forward with all possible rapidity. One of the weaknesses in the economy of this country is the fact that our sources of fuel and power are, to a certain extent, limited. For that reason it is essential first, that we should develop existing resources to the fullest extent and, secondly, we should seek in every possible way to economise fuel. When I say economise fuel, I mean that we should seek to ensure that in our industries and in our homes the most economic methods of using fuel are adopted. I am not satisfied that we have yet discovered the best type of range for the utilisation of turf in the homes. I believe there is room for further improvement in that direction and that we ought to have intensive research into that matter. I am satisfied that, given the right type of range, turf properly saved and dried can be made as economic and efficient as any other type of fuel.

In this connection I should like to remind the Minister that, as a result of the enormous improvement in the type of range provided for the utilisation of anthracite, there is a danger that the use of anthracite may be extended to a degree far beyond the capacity of this country and that imported anthracite may, to a large extent, take the place now filled by home-produced turf. Therefore, as a matter of urgency, there should be produced a cooking range for the home that will compete with the anthracite range.

I should also like to express the opinion that some tribute should be paid to a voluntary organisation, the National Agricultural and Industrial Development Association, which staged a competition for Irish inventions recently. Many of the inventions exhibited in the Mansion House were very useful and they covered a wide variety of items. This type of competition should be encouraged in every possible way. In addition to a central body such as the National Agricultural and Industrial Development Association, the local bodies in the various counties could, I believe, contribute very much by encouraging young people to submit ideas for the improvement of various machines and other mechanical items. It is only in that way that we can overcome the natural disadvantages from which our country suffers by reason of the shortage of many essential raw materials of industry.

I was rather surprised to hear Deputy Brennan suggest that, in the course of the exploration work at Avoca, there is a possibility that sinister influences may be at work to prevent the best deposits from being discovered. I do not know that there is any foundation for that suggestion, but it is one of the things which should be carefully guarded against. If people from outside this country are brought in to investigate our mineral resources and help in the work of exploration of them, there may be a temptation in some cases for them to work against the interests of this country in the interests, perhaps, of the country from which they have come. I only referred to this matter because it has been mentioned. It is one of the matters against which the Minister's Department should be on their guard.

As I said, one of the most worrying features of our economic position is the enormous influx of imports into this country. I refer particularly to the fact that we had to spend last year £7,000,000 on imported coal. That is a figure which it should be possible to reduce by the development of our own resources. Then our imports of textiles and wearing apparel appear to be altogether out of proportion to the needs of this country. We ought to be able to make some headway in the clothing of our own people. I understand the import of textiles last year amounted to £15,000,000, and of wearing apparel to over £6,000,000. That is a very substantial sum to be sending to all parts of the world mainly for clothing. These two industries will require to be greatly expanded in the immediate future.

I was glad to hear several Deputies refer to the desirability of establishing a linen industry here. I know it is an extremely difficult matter to tackle. It is a matter which I believe was considered by the previous Government. The difficulties are enormous. Nevertheless, with the goodwill of all sections of the community and all Parties, it may be found possible to overcome those difficulties. It ought to be possible in the next few years to realise the dream of Arthur Griffith, that every country town should have one productive industry of its own; that every little country town should not be merely a distributing centre for foreign goods.

We heard in this House by way of question some time ago of the efforts that are being made to establish an industry in West Wicklow. There was a very substantial textile industry there 100 years ago but, unfortunately, it disappeared. I believe that some productive industry should be established there. You have the resources there in the way of transport, good roads and a railway and you have workers who are willing to work.

Some years ago I had a little skirmish with the Minister for Agriculture on a question which has very frequently arisen. That is the question of whether the raw materials of agriculture should or should not be taxed. The Minister for Agriculture was then emphatic that the raw materials of agriculture and the implements used in the industry should be completely exempt from tax. I was always under the impression that a spade is an agricultural implement but only last week I received a complaint that imported spades are subject to a duty of 50 per cent. I do not know whether the Minister for Agriculture approved of this or not but as far as I am concerned I would be very slow to advocate the abolition of this particular duty. One thing I would impress upon the Minister is that in the case of any implement the ordinary individual has to use in the course of his ordinary work, whether it is a spade used by a worker on the land or a typewriter used in an office or any other implement or machine, if we protect the home-produced article I think we should be particularly careful to ensure that it is of the best quality. I am afraid that our Irish produced spades do not compare with those imported.

In the course of the last couple of years farmers purchasing spades in the hardware shops have been rejecting the Irish article and are prepared to pay twice the price for the English article and that mainly because they realise that it is more efficient and of better quality. I think the Minister should bring the fullest possible pressure upon those engaged in this particular industry to improve the quality of such implements. Nothing will tend more to create a public opinion against Irish industry than to put into the hands of workers tools that are not of the best quality of Irish manufacture. That is a logical aspect of this question that the Minister ought to consider. We all know that our manual workers form a large section of the community. If they are to be compelled or induced to use Irish implements and tools, the fullest measures ought to be adopted to see that they are of the best quality.

In the course of this debate, Deputy M.J. O'Higgins launched a fairly severe attack upon one particular class of the community. Again we have this question of class prejudice. He launched a fairly bitter attack on the victualling trade. I hold no brief for the butchers either of this city or of the country generally, but I think that every section of the community is entitled to fair play. I have asked for fair play for the unemployed and for other sections of the community, and I think that when a reasonable case is put up by those engaged in the victualling trade they ought to be given consideration.

A price has been fixed for meat sold to the public based upon the price paid for cattle. The price was fixed in 1947 on the basis of the price that was then payable for cattle which was 88/10. Since then the price of cattle has increased by over 15/- a cwt. and there has not been any comparable adjustment in the price of meat. I think that the reasonable attitude to this question would be that if it is necessary to fix a price for meat and if it is based on the price of cattle there ought to be an adjustment up or down according as the price of cattle rises or falls. Ordinary logical commonsense would dictate that that would be the proper course to adopt. However, that course has not been adopted and I think those engaged in the meat trade feel that they have been compelled to act to a large extent as public benefactors. A case arising out of the fixation of the price of meat was taken to the courts recently. The judge wisely commented that it might be possible that those men were working at a loss. The suggestion was made that men would not work at a loss because they would be out of business right away. However, the judge properly answered that they might as long as they had a hope that their position would be improved in the near future. I hope that that hope will not be frustrated.

I want to refer to one last matter and that is the fact that we have so much publicity in this country for employment on the other side of the water. Is it desirable that every newspaper in this country should carry advertisements offering employment in Great Britain to young people of this country? Something should be done to counteract that propaganda and publicity. Something very effective should be done to induce our young people to stay at home and to give them a reasonable prospect of a decent living within this country.

Deputies have referred at considerable length to the question of transport. I have nothing to say on that matter except to warn the Minister again that if any reorganisation of transport is undertaken private enterprise in the transport of goods ought to be given very favourable consideration. While it is true that a large monopoly can handle passenger transport perhaps as efficiently, if not more efficiently, as private enterprise and while it is true that a central organisation is required to deal with rail traffic, I think that as far as lorry traffic on the roads is concerned small private contractors would give a better and cheaper service to the community. The Minister ought not to allow himself to be induced to betray the interests of that section of the people engaged in the transport industry.

Mr. J. Flynn

I tabled a question some time ago urging the Minister to consider the provision of a generating plant in a remote area of the County Kerry with a view to using up the huge deposits of turf that we have there. If that were done it would provide continuous employment for a great number of people. I understand that, with the best intentions in the world, the Minister was not able to see his way to do what I asked simply because the Electricity Supply Board had advised, apparently, that the proposition was not an economic one, mainly because, as they said, the area proposed was in the dead end of the country. I submit that if we feel there is a necessity for the establishment of such a plant there, the fact of it being in the dead end of the country should not matter. I hold that the main purpose of a native Government should be to decentralise industry, if possible, and to cater for the people in Ballinskelligs and Cahirciveen just as for those living adjacent to the capital of the country. I made the suggestion from a practical point of view. We have not the Electricity Supply Board system down there. We have to depend on a local plant in Cahirciveen where electricity is produced at a high cost to the consumer. My idea was that this generating plant, which I suggested, would supply sufficient electricity for lighting and power purposes and for other development in that area, while at the same time it would be the means of using up millions of tons of turf that could be made available for it from over a very wide area. Perhaps at some future date the Minister may see his way to review that matter again. I should be very grateful if he can do so.

In my opinion, no proper methods have been adopted in regard to mineral development in this country. When Deputy Lemass was Minister for Industry and Commerce I made representations to him on various occasions asking him to carry out experiments in mineral development. I pointed out to him that, in my county, we had well-known deposits of copper, silver and other valuable minerals, but he did not seem to react to the suggestion. In my opinion, mineral development should be handled in the same way as the Minister for Agriculture is handling his important and huge land reclamation project at the moment. It should be done in a big way. If, from our own resources, we are not able to develop and exploit our mineral wealth, then I suggest we should ask for the assistance of foreign investors, American, British, or people from any other country who would be prepared to invest their money in such development on a pro rata basis with our own nationals. If that were done it would help us to develop our national wealth and the natural mineral deposits that we have.

I remember that, when I approached the former Minister for Industry and Commerce for a small grant for the purpose of testing out certain mineral deposits—the work might involve only an expenditure of £200 or £300 and could be carried out as a minor relief scheme—he refused me. He did not believe in it, and he quoted from an old geological survey, one 100 years old, trying to prove that this mineral deposit in which I was interested was only what he called a shell deposit— just a mere speck in the ocean, as it were. He did not consider my idea with any real earnestness. I think that even if a little money were wasted on the scheme it should have been tried out.

The last Government did not go in for modern methods for detecting minerals. I suggest that the present Government should do so, and introduce the new system they have in America, the system that is known as electrical divining. If that were done it would assist us in knowing where we stand in regard to mineral development. There is evidence that I could point to in various areas of the County Kerry of mineral deposits. There is evidence of oil in Glenbeigh. These mineral deposits were brought to the notice of the Department of Industry and Commerce years ago. Whenever I did so I was referred to this old geological survey. These surveys were carried out by a Government that was not helpful or favourable to this country, because if our mineral deposits were developed they would be in competition with their own. We have evidence with regard to that. We had silver and lead mining at one time in Castlemaine. Strange to say, it was a landlord there who took the initiative in starting it. The ore was sent to Liverpool for the smeltingdown process. When the company was formed to develop the mineral, the British Government closed it down because they saw at the time that it would be in competition with others of its kind in their own country. That is why I say that this geological survey, on which the Minister's experts pin all their faith, is questionable from that point of view.

I now come to boots. We have a very up-to-date and successful boot factory in Killarney. Complaints have been coming through in recent months that the men are working on short time and, without casting aspersions on anybody, I would like to draw attention to the position there. As far as I can ascertain, we have reached the peak point in boot production in this country. I suggest to the Minister that, if it were at all possible we would be well advised to seek an export trade in boots in some of the European countries. I have discussed this matter with a well-known boot manufacturer. He informs me that we have too many boot factories in this country. I am not in a position to say whether that is correct or not. This man certainly knows the position and, in my opinion, is very well qualified to speak for that industry. The modern system calls for a high-class article. I think that we have now reached the stage when we can produce an article that can compete with that produced in any other country. I believe we would be well advised, if it were possible to do it, to have reciprocal arrangements with some other country in regard to an export trade. There are, perhaps, other countries that would buy our products and we could make a trade pact with them in relation to whatever goods we might purchase from them.

As regards the turf industry, I wonder would it be possible to regard the machine-won turf as the staple industry and utilise the hand-won turf in conjunction with it? There is one suggestion that I think would be practicable and that is that Bord na Móna would lease machines to men engaged in the hand-won turf industry, lease them to individuals in districts adjoining the areas where they are operating. In that way we could develop large areas and have the turf produced as machine-won turf. In my opinion in the course of time we could replace our entire coal imports. According to our experts, at the present rate of consumption we have sufficient turf deposits to last us for 100 years. If the machine-won turf is developed in the way I suggest, we could soon establish a series of these turf-cutting machines and enable the men now producing hand-won turf to utilise them.

So far as I can see there is no encouragement for hand-won turf. We have done our utmost in Country Kerry; the county council have endeavoured to make it compulsory on local institutions to use hand-won turf. They are doing that, but we would like something mandatory from the Minister, something indicating what his Department might do for the industry as a whole. If something is not done soon, the hand-won turf industry, as we know it, will disappear. I admit there is a lot of propaganda about it, but the men engaged in it believe that there is no great future for that type of fuel.

There is one thing I would be very insistent upon and I urge the Minister to do it. He should prohibit coal imports into turf areas. He should ask the co-operation of the people in this regard. I do not know if it could be done by a Government Order, but an effort should be made to see that no coal is sold or utilised in the turf areas of County Kerry, with certain exceptions, and these would be the creameries or the railways. There should be some restriction put on the use of coal in local institutions. If that were done it would assist considerably.

On the question of employment, I find that most of our people are anxious to work and it is difficult to reconcile the Minister's recent statement with the position as I see it in County Kerry. The men were offered certain work but, as other speakers have said, they would have to go into another area and some of them refused because family circumstances militated against their leaving the locality. At the same time I appreciate the Minister's frank statement. I know that as far as he is concerned he is doing his utmost to help us and we in turn will do our utmost. At the same time we will point out the difficulties.

Coming back to the position of the Electricity Supply Board, I can never understand why that case should be made. Bord na Móna made the same pont about turf development. I tabled a question recently suggesting to the Minister that extra turf cutting machines should be allocated to those districts. The point was that the haulage from Ballinskelligs to Cork would cost too much.

The said bogs were excellent and the unemployed were there, but it would not pay them to operate their machines there because the haulage costs would be too great. Is that a businesslike way of looking at a scheme? Is it right to condemn a scheme like that and decide not to develop a particular district? Did the Minister for Agriculture adopt that attitude in launching his land reclamation scheme? Had he excluded certain counties because they were a dead-end the people would have resented it very much. He did not do that. He said the scheme would embrace the whole country. Why should Bord na Móna come along then and reject one area on the plea that haulage costs would be too great? I think that is bad business. I appreciate what the Minister has done in the past 12 months and I appreciate what he is trying to do now in difficult circumstances. As far as I am concerned, I shall be helpful. I shall criticise constructively when necessary, but I shall at all times do my utmost for the Government and for the people who sent me here.

Mr. Allen

There are one or two matters to which I would like to refer on this Estimate. There is a small provision in the Estimate for life saving. I suggest that there should be a better organisation in this particular respect. The loss of life around our coasts is a serious problem. Every year takes its toll, particularly on the east coast. I think the local authorities have some kind of responsibility but it is not very clearly defined. Where there are life-boats or a lifesaving apparatus, the Minister makes a grant of £3 10s to 700 people. I do not know exactly who the 700 people are, but I assume they are the people who man the life-boats or operate the lifesaving apparatus. Something must be done in the very near future with regard to life saving. I think we should have a system something like the old coastguard system. Whether that is desirable or not I do not know, but there is no doubt that many lives are lost every year. About two years ago on the Wexford coast a boat in distress sent up flares all night long, but nobody understood what they were. The result was that a number of lives were lost on that occasion. Certainly the provision made in this Estimate for this purpose is not very great.

With regard to the improvement of harbours, the Minister has provided more money for this purpose. I hope that some of the harbours in County Wexford will benefit by these grants. Some years ago the previous Government approved of a grant for the building of a jetty at New Ross. I wonder what has become of that. Actually the harbour authorities were notified. Surely it is time some steps were taken in the matter. The local authority agreed to pay its share and we can see no reason for the delay. Wexford Harbour presents a big problem. I understand it is the Minister's responsibility. The harbour commissioners have made representations on numerous occasions but so far nothing has been done. I appeal to the Minister to take a personal interest in the matter and find some solution in the immediate future. The authorities in Wexford have no funds at all. Shipping would avail of this harbour if money were spent on dredging the channel. Unless the Minister comes to their assistance the channel cannot be dredged. I know there is a much bigger scheme for Wexford Harbour, but that scheme has been in abeyance for a long time now. Wexford County Council was the only body courageous enough to provide money for this. The Departments of State concerned seem to have put it on the long finger. Apart from the bigger scheme, there is no reason why a grant should not be made available to dredge the channel so that shipping could use the harbour. Shipping always came into Wexford before the war. The harbour was closed during the emergency. Shipping would avail of it again now but the channel has silted up and ships cannot come in. It is one harbour with a large trade in the past which is still out of operation through lack of funds. I ask the Minister to give that matter his early attention.

With regard to the fees to vocational committees under the Apprenticeship Act, a very small amount is provided. No doubt the amount is small because there is no demand for apprentices or no encouragement is being given to them. It seems a pity that something more is not done in that respect. As far as the rural areas are concerned, I think the Apprenticeship Act is out of date. The Minister has power under the Act to make direct grants to persons who wish to apprentice themselves to trades in rural areas. There are several trades that are absolutely essential to the existence of the agricultural industry. Some of them are dying out at the present time because the young men no longer wish to learn them. One important trade is that of farrier, or blacksmith. Rural tailors are necessary; so are rural shoemakers and harnessmakers and so on. These are all essential to the agricultural industry. The men in the trades at present will tell you that they cannot get apprentices to serve their time. I suggest the Minister should make substantial grants available both to the tradesman himself and to the young lad who is prepared to learn. The same principle could apply in the building industry in the rural areas. Plasterers, carpenters, plumbers, bricklayers and so on find it impossible to get apprentices in the country. This would help in some measure to solve the problem of juvenile unemployment. A man is assured of a livelihood if he has a trade. It would be a pity if these trades were allowed to die out amongst the rural community. Things were never so serious in that particular respect as they are at the moment. Blacksmiths, for instance, find it impossible to get anyone to help them.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again later.