Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Jun 1949

Vol. 116 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 9—Office of Public Works (Resumed).

Debate resumed on motion:

That the Estimate be referred back for further consideration—(Deputy O'Grady).

Mr. Traynor

Vote 10, item 8— Improvement of Layout of Grounds of the Custom House. The Parliamentary Secretary will no doubt be aware that the committee to set up a memorial in the grounds of the Custom House has been very active in fostering that project. I noticed recently that there is great activity in the Custom House grounds. When I saw it first I presumed that it had some connection with that proposed memorial. I know that the committee was in communication with the Department. They sent a letter on the 8th July, 1948, and got a reply indicating that the matter was being considered. They did not here anything further for a considerable period and they wrote again on 15th June last. To that communication they received only an acknowledgment.

The Parliamentary Secretary is fully aware of the historic incident which occurred in that building and in the grounds connected with the building. He is aware that on the orders of the Government of that particular period— Dáil Éireann—the army of the State took possession of the building because it was regarded as one of the most important centres of the administration of the occupying forces. In the destruction of that building a number of lives were lost and a large number of men were made prisoners. The committee which has been set up is composed entirely of Old I.R.A. men of the Dublin Brigade. I believe it is fully representative of all sections of the community and of all Parties in this House, so that it cannot, in any sense, be described as a particular political Party.

Their main and only object is to commemorate the memory of the men who lost their lives in that particular episode and also the memory of those who took part in it. I would be very glad if the Parliamentary Secretary would tell us exactly what the position is in regard to the situation there. Is work on the improvement and lay-out of grounds going on at the moment? Is the memorial included in that improvement and lay-out of the grounds? If not, I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to interest himself in this particular matter and to ensure that this memorial to these men will be erected on the site on which it was originally proposed to erect it. It was understood generally that there would not be any opposition to the proposal to erect such a memorial in these grounds. An eminent architect, since deceased, designed the memorial. He was himself a member of the Dublin Brigade. He gave his services free and the design, which has been on public view, has been generally admired for its artistic value. I cannot imagine, therefore, that there can be any objection to the design. If there was any objection to the design and if there was any objection to the proposed site, I believe the memorial committee would be quite prepared to meet any points raised in that regard. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give sympathetic consideration to this project and to ensure that, if possible, this memorial will be erected on the site on which it was originally intended to erect it. The only alternative to that, if the Department decides that it will in any way interfere with the present lay-out of the grounds, is to seek some other site in that vicinity from the Dublin Corporation. That might not, of course, be desirable. I am sure that the corporation would give such a request their utmost sympathy, but it would be much more fitting that the memorial should be erected in the actual grounds of the institution in which this historic event took place. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to interest himself personally in this particular matter.

Mr. T. Walsh

There are a couple of points that I wish to bring to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary. With regard to inspection of works, we find there is great delay in having an inspector sent down. The application may be in for a month or two, or even five or six months, before the works are inspected. I do not know the reason for that delay. The Parliamentary Secretary should know that there are times in the year when these works can be more suitably carried out, particularly in the case of farmers who have applied for grants to do roadways and laneways.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think that comes under the next Vote, No. 11.

Mr. Colley

I regret that the Government has apparently seen fit to virtually abandon the proposal to erect a Garden of Remembrance at Parnell Square. There is only a token Vote of £10 provided in the Estimate. Last year £5,000 was provided, but it was not spent. We have been publicly informed that it is now proposed to use this site for other purposes. After the 30 odd years that have passed I think the time has come when some national memorial should be erected to these men. The site at Parnell Square was deliberately chosen because of its association with the movement, pre-1916 and right through the Black and Tan war. The site may not be very big, but it is admirably central. We have been told that the Government have an alternative site in mind. They will certainly find it very difficult to get a more suitable site. They will certainly find nothing so central as Parnell Square. I hope this does not mean the abandonment of the proposal for a long number of years. We have no reason for thinking that there will be any immediate development in this respect. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider the position and to proceed with the original proposal. In the very next item there is a sum of £11,000 proposed for the cenotaph on Leinster lawn. To my mind that provision does not show a real sense of values. I think, if we are going to erect any memorial, this very historic one proposed at Parnell Square should get precedence. It is extraordinary that that should be abandoned while the other is brought a step forward.

Mr. Donnellan

It is not abandoned. It is merely deferred.

Mr. Colley

It is abandoned temporarily. It is abandoned for this year at any rate. It should not be abandoned even temporarily. I do hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will reconsider this matter. It is one that deeply affects a number of the Old I.R.A. in Dublin. I know that they are very concerned about it. I appeal to him to do everything in his power to advance that project.

I wish to add my voice to what has been said by Deputy Traynor with regard to the Custom House. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will take steps to ensure that a site is provided there for a memorial and that, whatever plans there are for its improvement, they will not be allowed to interfere with the erection of such a memorial within the next few years.

Mr. Donnellan

I very much appreciate the level on which this debate has taken place. Roughly 12 or 13 Deputies took part in it. The tone of the debate has been very different from that of 12 months ago. I sincerely thank every Deputy who spoke because no touch of politics was introduced into the debate right from the first speaker down to the last. Helpful suggestions were made. It is my duty now to reply as briefly as I can to some of the points raised.

One matter to which specific attention was drawn was the alleged monstrosity in front of Leinster House. I think practically every speaker referred to it. We propose to tarmacadam the courtyard in order to provide parking space for 64 cars. We believe that roughly that amount of additional parking space is required. It is intended to have a display of flowers or flowering shrubs. We also intend to improve the lighting. Sometimes I hear the remark made: "I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary and the commissioners work like the workmen who are on the job out here." I want to tell Deputies that these are not our workmen. This work is being done on contract. The contract is £7,800 and the job must be completed by August next. There was a delay at one stage because of some trouble over contractors. Deputies must understand that it cannot be rushed. Deputies must also understand that it will not be a terrible monstrosity, as they will discover for themselves when the job is finished. The stonework is, of course, Irish granite.

The Garden of Remembrance was mentioned. That is deferred at the moment. As regards the site, it is believed by the Government—and I agree with the Government in this— that there is more need at the present time for the proposed infant welfare courses scheduled for Parnell Square. The Garden of Remembrance is merely deferred. I do not believe that there is even the remotest possibility of its being completely abandoned.

Deputy Little referred to the shortwave broadcasting station. As far as the Board of Works is concerned, our job is finished. If there is any delay then the Department of Posts and Telegraphs must take responsibility for it. Deputy O'Grady referred to the Bourne Vincent Memorial Park. The roads there were never designed for heavy traffic. Hackney traffic is allowed. We think that hackney traffic is sufficient for the visitors who wish to tour this park. The roads would not stand up to any other kind of traffic except hackney traffic.

Deputy O'Reilly referred to barracks. I shall refer to both barracks and schools generally. I want the House to realise that the Board of Works are contractors for every Department of State. We cannot proceed with the carrying out of works until the responsible Department decides that the works are necessary. We cannot build barracks unless the Minister for Justice asks us to do so. With regard to schools, the initiative must be taken by the manager. It then passes to the Department of Education, the Department of Finance and eventually to us. As far as schools and barracks are concerned, there is no delay of any kind at our end. I am not subject to contradiction when I make that statement because I know it to be a fact. Very often we have to take the blame when other Departments are guilty of delay. Sometimes, even in my own constituency, I have been asked by a manager why a certain school is not going ahead. I look up the file in my Department and find that it is he himself who is the cause of any delay there is.

The Clarecastle sluice gates were referred to by Deputy O'Grady. The collection of data in connection with that matter is complete. A decision will be issued in the very near future. Reference was made to the Dublin Castle scheme. That has been deferred. Deputy Little referred to the fact that we are spending £7,000 on that scheme this year. That £7,000 will go towards paying the engineers who prepared the plans. No work is being carried out at the present time. We believe that that scheme can wait. It was remarked by Deputy Little that the inspector of national monuments had retired. The inspector has actually consented to remain on until such time as we appoint someone in his place. It is not true to say that he has retired.

Limerick Castle was referred to by Deputy O'Grady. We propose to take that over. The necessary repairs will be carried out. Deputy O'Reilly mentioned Bective Abbey and the growth of weeds there. That is under consideration at the moment.

Deputy McQuillan referred to an important matter when he said that the Board of Works engineers were not always right with reference to the sluice gates between Athlone and Meelick. The keeper there has definite instructions to open the gates every time there is heavy rain. As far as the ordinary people are concerned, the engineers have been proved to be wrong because they held that the opening of the sluice gates would not relieve flooding. Actually that step has considerably relieved flooding in that area. If the opening of the gates proves successful after heavy rain so much the better.

Mr. McQuillan

They should be opened before the flood comes.

Mr. Donnellan

We must wait for the rain.

Mr. McQuillan

When the rain comes, but before the flood rises.

Mr. Donnellan

I think it was Deputy Traynor who referred to the proposed improvements in the layout of the Custom House grounds. He said that the proposals of the memorial committee should be considered in conjunction with the general scheme. At present the scheme is in its very early stages. The proposals of the memorial committee will be considered in connection with the next stage which includes a site considered suitable for whatever memorial it is ultimately decided to erect. The matter is under consideration and the committee will be consulted in connection with it.

Mr. Traynor

I take it that means they are not being excluded from the site.

Mr. Donnellan

They are not. The committee will be consulted in connection with it whenever consultation is necessary. The principal matter raised by the various speakers was the question of arterial drainage. I may as well tell the House that I felt 12 months ago that I could have at least live times as much work done as I have done to-day. It is as well to be honest about it. Progress in these matters is very slow. I honestly thought 12 months ago that we would have three major schemes in operation at present. I want to announce now that in the month of August we shall make a start with the Glyde and Dee. It may be pointed out that we have provided only £5,000 in the Estimate for this work but Deputies will realise that we cannot get excavators out there the first day. We have first got to go up and prepare the way along the banks. We expect to make a start at these preparations early in the month of August. If it should transpire that the sum of £5,000 provided will be expended before the end of the financial year, we hope to be able to get additional funds by some means.

Deputy Kissane referred to a statement which I made in Kerry some time ago to the effect that the Brick and Cashen scheme would be done by June, 1949. I did make that statement and I believed at the time it was possible to have it started. If it has not been started, it is not any lack of desire on my part that is preventing it. With the co-operation of the commissioners and the Board of Works generally, we expect it will be possible to have it started in the near future. I shall not be so foolish as to name a definite date. That is a very foolish thing to do, as Deputies will realise, but we shall have it started very soon and we expect to have three other schemes going through.

Some Deputy raised a point about the employment of engineers. I had hoped that some Deputy might put forward some suggestion as to how we might loosen the red tape connected with Civil Service regulations in this country. The task of employing engineers, as Deputy O'Grady, who has some experience of this Department, will know, is one calculated to give anybody a headache. There is one regulation which will have to be complied with one day and some other regulation which has to be carried out the next day. To give an idea of the difficulties encountered, I might mention that in one instance 45 engineers presented themselves for interview in connection with the filling of eight positions. Before the Civil Service Commission had finished with the job, instead of having the men from Nos. 1 to 8, as they were placed by the commission, the first man available was No. 29. That meant that 28 men had gone away before the calls could be sent out. Without engineers, as Deputies know, you cannot make any progress. I would honestly say to the House that that is the greatest cause of holding up work at the moment. Civil Service regulations are preventing us from getting engineers as quickly as we should get them. I make that as an open, honest confession. I am not going to say that Fianna Fáil was responsible for these regulations or that the present Government is responsible for them, but the fact is that the regulations are there. I hope that the Dáil will some day find a method by which we can loosen all this red tape, and any suggestion in that connection that may be forthcoming from any side of the House will be welcomed.

Even in the case of the 1945 Arterial Drainage Act there are certain regulations which do hold up the work. At the moment the scheme for the Glyde and Dee is fully prepared, but the maps must go on exhibition for three or six months and provision must be made to receive objections if there are objections. Of course, I do not anticipate there will be any objections, because we are doing work which the people want done. There were no objections, for instance, in the case of the Brosna. From the 1st August we shall be making the necessary plans as regards getting stores up there and preparing the ground for our excavators to go in. By the time the six months are up we can go ahead with the scheme. There are some provisions of the 1945 Drainage Act which, I think, I will have to ask the Dáil to delete on a future occasion, for the general good and in order to speed up drainage. We all realise that drainage is a very necessary work, and I am hoping that certain things under the European Recovery Plan will happen in the near future whereby we may be able to speed up certain large schemes in this country. Probably in that way we may be able to give temporary relief in certain areas until such time as the 1945 Act comes into operation in these areas. I cannot make a definite announcement about it now, but I do hope that matters will pan out as I would wish.

Some Deputies seem to have a confused idea as to the conditions under which drainage is carried out. It was pointed out that the Minister for Agriculture is doing a certain amount of drainage while the Minister for Local Government is also carrying out drainage of a certain type under the Local Authorities (Works) Bill. So far as we are concerned, our job is the administration of the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945. Under that Act there must be a proper survey, proper maps, and the comprehensive work which we shall carry out under the Act is work that will be done, not on a temporary basis, but work of a permanent character which will have to be maintained. I want to make that clear, and my only regret is that we have not been able to work fast enough. The commissioners may say to me that probably we are going too fast, but certainly I am not satisfied with the rate of progress of drainage, not a bit satisfied. When it is considered that we have 40 major schemes, if we are to carry out only two or three schemes at the same time, some people may have to wait 100 years before their area is reached. Deputy Davin and others referred to the Nore, which floods Kilkenny City. These are very necessary works, but at the moment we can only look ahead and say that we shall go there some day. I may as well be honest; at the present rate of going it will be much longer than I thought it would. The best we can hope to do at the moment is to have three major schemes going. We will certainly have two this day 12 months, and I hope we will have a third, the Kerry one. The trouble is that the moment things get along all the people will be crying for drainage.

If I have left out any point I will look over the debate and reply personally to any Deputy concerned. I am very grateful for the tone of the debate to the 12 or 13 Deputies who spoke. Their suggestions were very helpful. I would always ask them to come to meet me or I would go to meet them to discuss any suggestions they have to make. I would be only too glad to accept them for this great national job of arterial drainage.

Nearly all the Deputies spoke on the question of national schools. We are spending £300,000 on them this year and I am glad that we are because we all realise what good health in the national schools means. I may as well be honest and say that at the rate we are going at the moment I think we will have to come in here to look for a Supplementary Estimate as we are spending more than £300,000. I am sure that if it is necessary to look for it for such a deserving object the Dáil will give it to us.

Again I would like to thank the Deputies who spoke in the debate. I would always be only too grateful to hear suggestions in this great national effort.

Mr. Derrig

I have one point, more of an æsthetic character than anything else. On coming down the quays from the direction of the gasworks one is struck very forcibly by the small buildings that have been erected at the Custom House, and I think it does not require an expert to come to the conclusion that the beautiful aspect of the Custom House, which is one of the architectural glories of Dublin, has been rather spoiled. I do not know where the town planning authorities——

Mr. Donnellan

I will relieve the Deputy's mind on that. They are only temporary buildings which were demanded by the Department of Public Health.

Mr. Derrig

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will keep an eye on the Department of Public Health.

Mr. Friel

Will the Parliamentary Secretary say whether harbours like Greencastle Harbour, County Donegal, will be improved?

Mr. McQuillan

The Parliamentary Secretary said something about schemes being held up due to the lack of engineering staff. Does he seriously suggest to this House that work of vital national importance is being held up by Civil Service red tape?

Mr. J. Flynn

I made recent representations with regard to the pier at Cahirciveen and I would like to know what the latest reports are in the matter.

Mr. Donnellan

I think Deputies will realise that it is unfair to put questions like that. If they drop me a note I will give full particulars as to those things. With regard to Deputy McQuillan's statement, what I said was that we definitely are.

Mr. McQuillan

And you have no solution?

Mr. Donnellan

I have not. The House has.

Mr. McQuillan

I think then you should come to the House.

Mr. Traynor

On the point made by the Parliamentary Secretary in the first instance and mentioned again by Deputy McQuillan, I think it is a question of the difficulty of securing the services of engineers. Is that not what the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned?

Mr. Donnellan

Yes.

Mr. Traynor

It was my experience in respect of these young men who have secured their degrees and become fully qualified engineers that the salary offered by the State was inadequate in every case. I am speaking from my own experience. Naturally when these young men were offered more adequate terms on the other side they accepted them and I can say, also from my own experience, that the same thing happened in respect of Army engineers. I do not think it is a question of Civil Service red tape as much as a failure to offer proper remuneration to these young men who have come out from the colleges.

Mr. Bartley

I am sorry that I was not here for the Parliamentary Secretary's reply. Will he say whether a survey of the Corrib has begun and, if so, how far it has progressed?

Mr. Donnellan

Deputy Bartley realises as well as I do that on the Corrib the outfall is the great problem and if the first few miles of the outfall were done we could go on much more quickly with the survey.

Mr. Bartley

That is just the information I want the Parliamentary Secretary to give me if he can. What progress has been made on any part of it?

Mr. Donnellan

As a matter of fact, from a report I saw recently there are roughly 15 mills and we are in the position at the moment that we have given full particulars to the Electricity Supply Board and asked what their charge per mill would be to install electric power because when we take away the outfall the power will have to be replaced.

Motion to refer back, by leave, withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.