Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Jul 1949

Vol. 117 No. 3

Alginate Industries (Ireland) Limited (Acquisition of Shares) Bill, 1949—Committee.

Sections 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 4.

Question proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Derrig

I have not put down a formal amendment to this Bill because I feel that the framework of the Bill as it now stands would not permit of the amendments that I would consider necessary, but I would like to ask the Minister what steps will be taken. I understand from him that he had no objection to making the House aware of the activities, present and pending, of this company. Would he not consider it advisable to bring in an amendment setting out that we should have, as well as the balance sheet and profit and loss account, a report on the yearly activities of the company, as in the case of Bord na Móna, laid on the Table? The profit and loss account and balance sheet may or may not give the information that people would desire, but in any case, I think it would be impossible to determine from the figures given in this document what the activities of the company had been during a particular year.

In previous legislation I think it was understood that a report from a company, where the State was directly concerned, as it is in this case, should lie on the Table of the House. I do not think the object I have in mind can be achieved by a simple amendment and I shall content myself on this occasion by saying that there should be an opportunity afforded to enable the House to discuss the activities of this company in which the State is to have a predominant say. The report of its activities would enable Deputies to familiarise themselves with what is taking place. With regard to the nominee whom the Minister is appointing to deal with the question of shares, I would like to ask whether this nominee will be a director of the company. If he is a director will he receive remuneration or fees or expenses and, if so, how will they be accounted for; will they be paid out of the ordinary Vote or will they be made a charge on the Central Fund? If the nominee has managerial or directorial responsibility I presume that, if he is a civil servant, he will not be expected to do this work during his ordinary Civil Service hours but rather that this work will be additional to what he does in the Civil Service.

Mr. Blowick

As I explained the other night to the House on the Second Stage, there is no reason why information should be denied to the House. That, of course, is always subject to the ruling of the Chair in the matter. The Chair may rule out questions as to the ordinary day to day activities of the company. On the other hand, I cannot see any reason why general information sought by any Deputy in connection with the activities of the company should not be given. It is neither my desire nor my intention to withhold any information. It is possible that the rule of the House will not permit such information to be given on the Estimate for Gaeltacht Services.

If Deputies seek information as to the working of the company I do not see why the Minister should not give that information. This is not a very large undertaking. Sometimes it is helpful to give a certain amount of information, because very ofter. Deputies, in turn, will give information to the Minister which may help towards the more efficient operation of such concern. The Minister's nominee will be a civil servant. His remuneration will be purely a matter for the company. If there is any remuneration I take it he will be paid out of profits, if any, but I imagine the profits will be so slight the remuneration will not be very attractive.

Mr. Derrig

I would like to press the Minister as to whether, in addition to the balance sheet and profit and loss account, he will consider introducing an amendment here or in the Seanad to enable the Oireachtas to acquaint itself with what is going on by means of an annual report on the working of the company. I understand that the Minister's nominee who, he has told us, will be a civil servant, will have to depend on whatever meagre profits the company may make, and even then, he may not get a share of those profits.

Mr. Blowick

I am afraid the profits may be microscopic.

Mr. Derrig

The Minister told us on Tuesday that this company was faced with a rather prosperous future, as far as he could see. Do I understand now that the Minister has been converted to the philosophy of running a business without trying to make a profit? I suggest it is a very good idea to try to make a profit.

Mr. Blowick

When I referred to the company having a prosperous future, that expression may have been slightly misleading inasmuch as I was referring to the working of the industry being prosperous for the gatherers of sea rods along the coast. I was not making a forecast as to whether or not the actual company would be prosperous. I was looking forward to the greatest development in the gathering of sea rods, plus utilisation of other kinds of seaweed which, if experiments prove successful, may be a further source of prosperity for the people in these areas.

Mr. Derrig

What about the report?

Mr. Blowick

I have no objection to an amendment in the Seanad for the purpose of revealing any information that may be required. For my part, I would welcome that. I think all the activities of the company should be laid open to Deputies. I see no reason why they should be concealed. Concealment may only cause uneasiness or create false impressions for which there may be no foundation.

Mr. Derrig

Will the Minister introduce the amendment himself?

Mr. Blowick

I shall consider it. I am not opposed to it, but I must make the position quite clear. I am prepared to make the amendment, unless there are reasons why I should not do so.

Mr. Briscoe

The Minister says he is not opposed, but he also stated that this was subject to the ruling of the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair would like to make it quite clear that the Chair cannot rule out any questions if the Dáil decides that the Minister has responsibility. I am simply guided by the question as to whether or not the Minister has responsibility.

Mr. Briscoe

Unless it is specifically embodied in the Bill before it becomes law the Dáil will have no right. The Chair would have to rule that Deputies could not put certain questions. This is a private company sponsored by the Department. It is in a different position from some of the Gaeltacht industries already operated by that Department because, in connection with those, it is possible to get all the information one may require in the Public Accounts Committee. Since the Minister has no objection and since the view has been expressed, at any rate on this side of the House, that there should be some means whereunder questions could be asked as to the operations of the company, I suggest the Minister should consider introducing the amendment here or give an undertaking that the amendment will be made before the Bill goes before the Seanad. Unless it is specifically embodied in the Bill before it passes into law we shall be precluded from seeking that information and we shall also be precluded from making any examination into it on the Public Accounts Committee.

Mr. Blowick

That would be a matter for the Chair. I have no objection.

Mr. Briscoe

It is not a matter for the Chair. If it is not in the Bill the Chair has no power to rule.

Mr. Blowick

If the Minister admits responsibility and if the Act is so framed as to place that responsibility on the Minister, then I take it the Chair has no option but to allow the information to be supplied. I shall, however, consider the question of an amendment before the Seanad.

Mr. Briscoe

If the Bill comes back from the Seanad without that amendment being incorporated in it, we are in the difficult position that we can then do nothing in the matter because we shall have passed the Bill from this House. If the Minister gives a definite undertaking we shall be quite prepared to accept that. The Minister has merely said that he is personally prepared to consider the matter. He has not said that he will undertake to do so. The company, as the Bill is now framed, will not be under the control of even the Public Accounts Committee. The particular industry, therefore, will be outside the control of the House altogether. We may as well face up to that now. I ask the Minister if he is prepared to introduce an amendment along the lines suggested.

Mr. Blowick

I have no objection to such an amendment, but I do not want Deputies to take it that, willy-nilly, I shall introduce such an amendment in the Seanad because I have not examined that aspect of the matter sufficiently fully to give a definite assurance at this stage. The furthest I can go is to say that I have no objection to such an amendment at the moment and if nothing unforeseen arises, nothing that I do not know of at present which would definitely preclude me from so doing, I shall either put down an amendment myself for the Seanad or accept one.

Mr. Briscoe

We want to make the matter clear. The Minister has been perfectly honest with the House and nobody finds fault with what he is saying, but in view of what he has now said I would suggest that the Report Stage be postponed so that we can get an opportunity of seeing whether the Minister will introduce an amendment or of allowing somebody else to introduce it. That will give the Minister an opportunity of further considering all the implications such an amendment might have. I do not think it would be wise for us, in view of what has been suggested by Deputy Derrig, just to leave it at that and then find ourselves later in a position in which we could do nothing about it.

Captain Cowan

I should like to support the suggestion of Deputy Briscoe. As he says, the Minister has been perfectly straight and honest with the House but we would be doing a very bad day's work if we simply let the Bill out of our hands with this sort of shaky suggestion as to possible amendments that might be introduced in the Seanad. I certainly would not agree that the Report Stage be taken until the form of the amendment is before the House. If the Minister could indicate now the form of the amendment he would introduce in the Seanad we would be willing to let the Bill go through. We should be certainly failing in our duty if we let it through at the moment.

Mr. Blowick

Let me say that the company that will emerge as a result of this Bill is exactly similar to several others already in existence.

Mr. Briscoe

That is why we are objecting to it.

Mr. Blowick

If anything requiring explanation is at any time brought to the attention of Deputies, any Deputy is free to table a motion in his House.

Mr. Briscoe

But it takes 18 months sometimes to reach these motions.

Mr. Moran

Without any information.

Mr. Blowick

Any Deputy is free to put down a motion calling for full particulars. As I say, I see no objection to such an amendment as has been indicated. I should welcome the amendment rather than otherwise but I cannot give a promise, without considering the matter fully, that such an amendment will be introduced between the time it leaves this House and passes to the other House. I cannot give a guarantee because I have not had an opportunity of considering the full implication of such an amendment.

Mr. Briscoe

Would the Minister agree that the Report Stage be taken next week? I think Deputy Cowan has the same mind on the matter as we have. We want to consider this matter also. It does not follow that because certain precedents have been established in the past, this Bill should be dealt with on the same lines. We should have an opportunity of considering this but we do not want to be unreasonable with the Minister. He has been perfectly fair and frank with the House but we are not prepared to let the Bill go through on the suggestion that the Minister will consider such an amendment when, in fact, he may decide not to move it later on. I would ask the Minister to agree to postpone the Report Stage. We shall consider it meanwhile and the Minister will have an opportunity of making up his mind as to whether he will accept the amendment or will not object to it if it is introduced. I think it would be unfair to ask him to commit himself definitely without giving the matter further consideration.

Mr. Blowick

The Deputy seems to doubt my sincerity.

Mr. Briscoe

No.

Mr. Blowick

I intended to ask the House to give me all stages of the Bill to-day. The Deputy can take it that I will accept an amendment or I shall move an amendment myself, whichever is the more desirable, in the Seanad, provided I am not absolutely precluded from doing so by something of which I am not aware at the moment. In other words, I do not want to tie myself hard and fast, but, at the same time, I want to be perfectly sincere and honest about this matter. I see no reason why such an amendment should be refused or rejected. As a matter of fact, I am giving my word that I shall be prepared to accept it if there is nothing to prevent my doing so. At the same time, I ask that all stages of the Bill be taken to-day. Otherwise I take it my word is doubted.

Mr. G. Boland

Why should not the Minister postpone the Report Stage until to-morrow and make up his mind meanwhile as to whether he can introduce this amendment or accept one if it is moved?

Mr. Smith

There is nobody doubting the Minister's word, but he will admit that in his last statement he has asked us to take his word that he will introduce an amendment in the Seanad unless he finds that he is precluded from doing so. Of course, that is an easy way out, a way out that it is quite natural for him to seek, but it would be unnatural for us to concede that way out, if the Minister cannot give us an open assurance that such an amendment will be introduced in the Seanad. If the Report Stage is postponed, we shall all have an opportunity of examining the position afresh.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is more regular to have an amendment on the Committee Stage. Progress might be reported on Section 4 and then all stages of the Bill could be taken to-morrow.

Mr. Blowick

The fact should not be lost sight of that the Bill has been in the hands of Deputies since very shortly after the 26th April last and I should have had notice of this point before now, not that I want to make any trouble about that. The text of the Bill has been in the hands of Deputies since about the 26th April and they could have raised this matter before.

Mr. Derrig

Deputies are in no way responsible for that.

Mr. Blowick

They are responsible for making objections at the last minute that should have been decided before.

Mr. Derrig

I raised the question.

Mr. Blowick

The Deputy was not very clear about it.

Mr. Briscoe

The Minister is not clear now about it.

Mr. Blowick

The point is not the same as Deputy Derrig's point.

An Ceann Comhairle

If progress be reported on Section 4, the Bill could be taken in Committee again to-morrow and an amendment could be tabled this evening.

Mr. Briscoe

I take it the Minister will expect us to introduce an amendment for to-morrow?

Mr. Blowick

Very good.

Mr. Briscoe

Will the Minister himself introduce an amendment?

Mr. Blowick

No. I should like to know what the Opposition view is on the subject.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.