Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 Jul 1949

Vol. 117 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 2—Houses of the Oireachtas.

Mr. McGilligan

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £2,700 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1950, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Houses of the Oireachtas, including certain Grants-in-Aid.

This sum of £2,700 is required for the purpose of making grants to enable members of the Oireachtas to take a more active and effective part in inter-Parliamentary Assemblies. From 1923, grants have been made towards the expenses of members of the Oireachtas who participated in certain Parliamentary activities. In 1939 the provision was reduced to a maximum sum of £200. That was to cover the Irish groups' expenses in participating in inter-Parliamentary Assemblies including the subscription and the costs of any delegation that might travel. That sum was kept on until 1948-1949. Actually, since 1940-41, the expenditure was confined to the amount of the annual subscription because the conferences were suspended by reason of war conditions.

A proposal has recently been made that the Ceann Comhairle should be invited to arrange a meeting of members of the Dáil and Seanad to consider certain suggestions that have been made to enable members of the Oireachtas to take a more active and effective part in inter-Parliamentary activities. Provision is being made for that. The activities that will take place is a matter to be decided later. The provision is for the cost of membership—that is subscriptions to an association of an inter-Parliamentary character. It will also cover representation at conferences. That will allow for the payment of the expenses of the people who may be selected to travel to conferences. It is hoped there would be enough in the Vote to enable foreign Parliamentarians who came to Ireland to be received and entertained.

There have been, in the main, two associations to which this State was attached. One was the Inter-Parliamentary Association which meets in Geneva. That is a group of members of Parliaments of different countries. The other association with which this country had some attachment was the group that used to be called "the Empire Parliamentary Group." It has now adopted a new title. It is known as the "Commonwealth Parliamentary Association." That association has made such arrangements as will enable people who are not exactly members of the group represented still to attend. It is hoped for this year that a conference will be held at Toronto, and that a delegation from the Parliament of the United States will attend. The arrangement has been made in such a way as to enable representatives of that Parliament to attend and clearly to accommodate members of this Oireachtas if it were decided to let such a delegation go. That is a matter which the conference to be convened by the Ceann Comhairle could discuss generally—activities of this inter-Parliamentary type.

Mr. de Valera

As it has been conveyed to me, I understand the intention is to ask the members of the Oireachtas to form a Parliamentary association which would decide to what Parliamentary bodies we would affiliate. We have discussed that and we are prepared to enter into such an association. The grants which it is now suggested the Dáil should provide are, I take it, intended to meet the expenses of the association including those of the delegations which they may decide to send to the conferences of the body with which they affiliate. All that is a matter for the association itself. To what extent will the Government say: "We will not give you the grant in the case of a particular proposed delegation"? In other words, the sum in this Vote is not to be paid over to the association as such. It is to be retained, I take it, in the Treasury, to be at the disposal of the Minister for Finance and of the Government who in any specific case may say: "We do not agree to that and we are not going to give you any grant for that purpose." I should like to be clear as to whether some of it is going to be handed over to the association and be at its disposal as a grant-in-aid, or whether it is to be given ad hoc in each particular case at the discretion of the Minister for Finance and of the Government.

There is another point that I would like to be clear on. It is this. The Minister referred to what used to be called the "Empire Parliamentary Association," and he has indicated that that body has changed its title. I think he said it changed its constitution so as to admit of the membership or presence at its sessions and conferences of the representatives of Parliamentary Associations of States that are not members of the British Commonwealth. Has the name actually been changed?

Mr. McGilligan

The name has been changed to "Commonwealth Parliamentary Association."

Mr. de Valera

That is an answer to one question. The next is, has its Constitution definitely been changed, and would it be possible to get a copy of its Constitution? I think I was told at one time that it was about to be changed, but I would like to know if, in fact, it has been changed. The fact that the United States is to be represented at the conference in Toronto would seem to indicate that it has, but I would like to be certain.

There is, of course, another remark that I would like to make. The two associations that have been referred to may be said to be two of the older associations, but the number of international bodies, of various kinds, has become so great that it is almost impossible to keep track of them. Naturally, our desire would be to limit the number so that it would be possible to attend properly to the activities of the bodies with which we would be associated.

Mr. McGilligan

I am advised that the name has been changed. I would assume that to be so from an extract from a letter which was sent to the Deputy who has spoken where the phrase occurs that "the rules have been amended to provide for the admission of countries that are not in the British Commonwealth of Nations." I am relying on that document.

Mr. de Valera

I had that document, too, and it is because it was in conflict with other information previously received that I am asking the question.

Mr. McGilligan

So far as the documentary evidence before me goes, I am advised that the rule has been amended in order to provide for the admission of countries not in the British Commonwealth of Nations, and provision has been made for the purpose of enabling America and this country to attend. There is no ambiguity about the matter; indeed, we cannot allow any such ambiguity about a matter of that sort, and if there is any it will have to be cleared up.

Mr. de Valera

I am quite aware of that.

Mr. McGilligan

I take it that that document is sufficient evidence. On the Deputy's other point, these are Grants-in-Aid. As to when a grant will be given, that will arise on consideration of an application in respect of a particular Parliamentary body. These moneys will not be handed over en bloc to an association. There will be the usual supervision carried out by my own Department. If assent is given to the payment of a subscription to some delegation, giving the Grant-in-Aid means, as the phrase has it, that the moneys will not be strictly subject to repayment; once the grant is issued, there will be no repayment. I think the Deputy's point is that, when we are asking for £2,700, we will put it into the hands of an association for disbursement as they please. That is not so.

Mr. de Valera

Suppose the association decide "We think we ought to participate in a certain conference, or affiliate with a certain body" and, for the carrying out of their intention, some of this money is required, can they insist on getting it, or is it a matter in which the Minister for Finance may say: "Now, that is not a purpose with which I agree and I will not give you any money"? With whom is the last word in case of a difference of opinion?

Mr. McGilligan

I suggest that the Minister has a responsibility. I might be landed into greater expenditure. It should be a matter for the Minister. The Deputy will agree that it should be so, I think.

Mr. de Valera

I merely wanted to know what was the position.

Mr. McGilligan

I hope that is the position. I shall try to secure that it will be the position.

Vote agreed to.

Votes 16, 2, 46, 61 and 64 reported and agreed to.