Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 Jul 1949

Vol. 117 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) Scheme, 1949—Motion.

Minister for Defence (Dr. O'Higgins)

I move:—

That the Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) Scheme, 1949, prepared by the Minister for Defence, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, under the terms of the Defence Forces (Pensions) Acts, 1932 to 1949, and laid before the House on the 15th July, 1949, be confirmed.

I think Deputies will agree that the White Paper circulated with this amendment scheme makes the position very clear. This amendment arises, in the main, out of the Bill passed by the House some time ago authorising the Minister to amend and extend the scheme so as to include chaplains. Generally, it follows on the same lines as the scheme made for nurses and the broad provisions in the scheme are as follows:

No. 1—Pensions. Normally, to qualify for a pension, a chaplain must have 20 years' continuous and full-time service. If he is forced to retire on the ground of ill-health he will be entitled to a pension after ten years' service. The rates will be 1/60th of his annual emoluments for each year of service, but after 20 years' service, each year thereafter will be reckoned as 1/30th for pension purposes. Taking the emoluments, pay, ration and accommodation allowance of the ordinary chaplain, the pension, at present rates, after 20 years' service, would be approximately £187 a year, and the maximum pension payable after 30 years' service will be about £375 a year. It also deals with gratuities. Normally, to qualify for a gratuity, a chaplain must have at least five years' continuous and full-time service; but if he is forced to retire on grounds of ill health he will be entitled thereon to a gratuity, even after only one year's service. The gratuity will be calculated at 30 days' pay for each year of service. The pay of an ordinary chaplain at the present moment is 24/- per day.

The formulation of this scheme for chaplains' pensions and gratuities is being used to extend the principal scheme in a number of minor respects. None of these amendments is of a restrictive character, but all of them tend to relieve individual cases of hardship which have arisen from time to time in administering the scheme.

Article 7 ensures that the widow or children of an officer will not be deprived of a pension because the officer died before fulfilling the present condition of being in receipt of retired pay. Article 9 removes the qualification for a soldier's married pension of having to be in receipt of marriage allowance on the date of his discharge. He will now receive a pension even though his wife has died provided that he was drawing an allowance in respect of his children. Article 16 permits the Minister to increase the married officers' gratuity paid to area administrative officers by adding notional to actual service, just as the 1947 scheme did in the case of pay. We are now doing the same with regard to marriage allowances.

If there are any other points upon which Deputies require information, not contained in the statement or in the White Paper, I will endeavour to give it to them; but I think the White Paper already circulated covers the whole scheme, Article by Article.

Mr. Traynor

There are two or three items in this scheme that I personally welcome and I am very glad to see them included in the scheme. One which I think is particularly welcome is that which provides pensions and gratuities for members of the chaplaincy service. I know that that was covered recently by a Bill, but it is only right that I should congratulate the Minister on being the instrument which brings in this provision and which makes it possible to give to the particular gentlemen concerned something in the nature of a reward to which they are entitled but which has been withheld from them over a long period of years. I notice that it is retrospective to the first day of December, 1944. I wonder if that covers all the chaplains down through the years. It would be nice if it were possible to reward all these chaplains in one way or another. Those who come within the terms of the Act and also within the terms of this scheme are assured of getting that to which they are entitled. There are some who may not come within the first day of December, 1944, though I imagine the Minister has been advised on that particular aspect of the matter. I am sure he has gone back as far as is necessary.

I am also glad that he has made provision for the specific portion of the Act to apply to officers who were not in a position to receive gratuities because they did not retire from the service. On a number of occasions in the past it was necessary to induce officers, who were so ill that there was no chance of their recovery, to retire. That will not be necessary in future. It was always a rather painful step to take and I am glad the Minister has brought in legislation which will make that process unnecessary in the future.

Captain Cowan

I want to congratulate the Minister on making this amendment to the pension scheme. These amendments cover a number of special cases of hardship. The only objection is that some of the provisions in this scheme have been inserted to deal with particular cases only. I have always held out against that. Article 5 provides for an officer who has held an appointment for not less than two years and three months; I take it that period is put in to cover some particular case. The important thing is, however, that these amendments do improve the scheme as a whole. For that alone, the Minister is to be congratulated.

There is one section here which may cause a little trouble to the Minister and his Department in regard to interpretation. Article 9 provides that if a marriage allowance was payable on the date of discharge, or if a man's wife was maintained in an institution and, but for that, marriage allowance would have been payable to her, or, if being a widower, he was in receipt of a child or children's allowances, marriage allowances will be paid. There is a case that is not covered here. To my personal knowledge there are quite a few of them. I refer to the case where a wife is separated from her husband for reasons other than the exigencies of the service. Take for instance, the case of a married soldier stationed in the Curragh; he could not obtain married quarters during the emergency in the Curragh, or elsewhere; his wife went across to live with friends in Britain; he was refused a marriage allowance and that refusal will now follow in so far as his pension is concerned.

There are a number of other cases where husbands and wives are separated because they disagree with one another and not because of the exigencies of the service. In those cases, marriage allowances were not payable. Because marriage allowances were not payable, the soldiers are not now entitled to what I will call the "married soldiers' pension". I think that is a hardship; it is unfair. There may have been during the time of service that disagreement that did not entitle the wife to the marriage allowance and they may have made it up since. I think it is unfair to limit this provision to the particular cases mentioned in the section.

That is the only thing I want to mention in regard to this scheme. It is very easy to pick holes in a scheme. It is very easy to criticise it and I do not want to do that where an amendment to a scheme does provide a substantial improvement. Where that has been brought in by the Minister, I think the Minister deserves congratulations and our support. This scheme is brought before us by virtue of the Act which says that such a scheme must be put before the Dáil for approval and although I or other Deputies may draw attention to some matter such as I have mentioned, we cannot improve the scheme in any way. My only reason for mentioning it now is so that the Minister may have a note of this and that when further amendments of the scheme are contemplated by him this particular point may be dealt with.

I welcome the scheme. I welcome the expedition in which the part dealing with chaplains has been brought in. I only regret that the language to which I referred when the Bill was brought into the Dáil—the term, "chaplaincy service"—could not have been altered.

Dr. O'Higgins

I just want to answer a few of the suggestions made by Deputies on this amendment. Deputy Traynor asked in particular if every chaplain who had the entitlement laid down in this scheme, whether he earned that entitlement in the past or in the future, is covered by the scheme. I am informed that that is so. Anybody who has previously gone out and who has had 20 years' service is covered by that. Anybody who went out on less than 20 years' service, but whose going was as a result of ill-health, is covered by the scheme.

Deputy Cowan referred to these words, "two years and three months". He inquired whether that was designed to meet any particular case. It is not designed to meet any particular case; there has not been such a case. Heretofore, an officer member of the Defence Council only got a higher rate of pension if he were forced to retire. In this amendment we are giving the higher rate of pension to an officer who voluntarily retired as a member of the Defence Council, if he had completed two years and three months' service.

Deputy Cowan also referred to the problem of soldiers who are separated from their wives and families either because of the exigencies of Army service or because of lack of domestic harmony. That is a very big problem. It is a difficult problem and one which must be considered on the merits of the individual cases. The fairest course, taking all the factors into account, is to be guided by the wishes of the parties concerned.

Question put and agreed to.