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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Dec 1949

Vol. 118 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Expiring Laws Bill, 1949—Second and Subsequent Stages.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. As Deputies are aware this is an annual Bill which does not embody any new principles or relate to any matters of a controversial nature. It simply proposes to continue for a further year the Acts specified in Parts I and II of the Schedule which would otherwise expire on the 31st December, 1949. If the House agree that these Acts should be continued, it will be necessary to have this Bill enacted before the end of the present calendar year.

The list of Acts being continued includes all the Acts which were continued for the present year by the Expiring Laws Act, 1948. The intention is, of course, to replace these measures by permanent legislation when an opportunity arises. Deputies will remember that the number of Acts listed in the Schedule was much greater some years ago, but from time to time the vast majority of these Acts were replaced by permanent legislation leaving only five to be continued at present.

The position in regard to the replacement by permanent legislation of the measures on the Schedule is set out in the explanatory memorandum which has been circulated to Deputies.

As will be apparent, each of these Acts with the exception of the Local Authorities (Combined Purchasing) Act, 1925, is portion of a code scattered through many statutes and their replacement by permanent legislation must necessarily form part of the wider work of consolidation of the various statutes relating to electoral law, housing, or borrowing by local authorities as the case may be. I can assure the House that there will be no avoidable delay in preparing the necessary permanent legislation in all these cases. The Local Authorities (Combined Purchasing) Act, 1939, which provides for the repeal of the 1925 Act, will be brought into operation as soon as there can be some certainty of continuity of supplies. The supply position is, of course, improving very considerably from year to year but it would still be difficult for official contractors to guarantee supplies of commodities over a lengthy period. The new Act could not be fully effective at the present time, but immediately we are satisfied that the circumstances permit of its operation we will bring it into force.

This particular Bill does not visualise the introduction of any new legislation. It merely proposes to continue five Acts upon which other Acts depend. It is of a non-contentious nature and I would ask for the House's approval of it.

Section 65 of the Local Government Act, 1941, relates to temporary borrowing by local authorities for current expenses. I take it that is the authority which empowers a local body to seek an overdraft when it is required for carrying on the business of the body concerned. I regret to say that it has been brought very forcibly to my notice during the present year that at least one of the two county councils in my area has had to go to the bank for an unusually heavy overdraft at a time when more than the same amount of money was due to the local authority by the central authority. I think it is very unfair that rate-payers should be called upon to borrow money from the bank and pay a high rate of interest thereon when their local authority is due very large sums of money from the central authority. This may be a matter for the Minister for Finance, but I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary, since he is in charge of the local authorities, to keep a close check-up on the position and ensure that moneys due by the central authority are paid to the local authorities at the proper time so that rate-payers will not be called upon to pay high rates of interest in order that certain activities can be carried on.

I assume that, as this is an Act to continue for a limited period certain expiring enactments, we might consider the justification or need to bring in a Bill of this sort in order to continue these particular enactments. The two which I have particularly in mind are the Parliamentary Elections Act, 1868, and the Corrupt Practices Commissions' Expenses Act, 1869. The explanatory memorandum states that the two Acts relate to the trial of election petitions and should be continued pending the publication of the electoral law. I am moved to ask, by reason of the terms of the explanatory memorandum, when any effective steps are going to be taken to codify the electoral law. When I was responsible for the local government of this country I devoted a great deal of study—as much, perhaps, as a layman could—to the position of electoral law in this State. I came to the conclusion that it was in a state of utter confusion and that it would be quite impossible for a court of this land to determine what the electoral law was unless it was prepared, itself, to act as a sort of law-making authority. Because of that, and after a great deal of trouble, I secured the necessary Finance sanction to set up a body of lawyers to review the whole position, to review the whole corpus of law relating not merely to corrupt practices and election petitions but the whole body of the electoral law, with regard to the practices that might be legal and justified in the case of an election.

The purpose of that was that we should eventually submit to the House as a whole a report setting out the present state of the law and ask both Houses of the Oireachtas to set up a joint committee to consider the problem and to make recommendations for its solution. The legal committee for this purpose had been appointed. I do not know whether it still continues to function or not. From my own personal knowledge of work which was carried by the particular officer in charge of that section of the Department, by reason of the exceedingly limited staff available to him and the many other demands, all of them exceptional, which were from time to time made upon him, I know it would have been impossible within the ordinary resources of the Department for that investigation to be made.

I consider that it is essential and urgent that we should have this whole question of the position of the law relating to the constitution of this House reviewed as a matter of urgency. The Acts which are referred to here relate to quite a different system of election, as the Parliamentary Secretary knows. They were enacted before the system of proportional representation was invented. They give the courts no guidance as to what would ensue if an election petition were to be successfully sustained against any member of this House. In such circumstances, and particularly if the petition ensued upon a general election, would the seat be vacated and would somebody else succeed without having a new election or would there have to be a new election? There is no guidance in the Acts in relation to these two vital matters but there is a whole body of voluminous files enumerating other doubtful points and also a great deal of deadwood which is embodied in our present electoral code.

I am raising this matter to try to impress on the House the fact that there is an urgent need for a review of this position. I hope, since the memorandum states that we are to continue these two Acts in operation pending the codification of the law, that steps are being taken to have the law codified. It is not the sort of task that can be undertaken in a summary fashion. It is not the sort of task that can be completed within a short time. It is going to need, in the first place, a very careful review of the existing law, a very careful redaction of the existing provisions of the law, so that the joint committee of the Oireachtas, the committee of the two Houses of the Oireachtas which I hope will eventually be set up, might have as clear a picture as it is possible for human learning to lay before them.

It is in that connection, I may say, that the position is full of anomalies. For example, if my recollection after the passage of two or three years does not mislead me, some part, perhaps not a very important part, of our electoral provisions dates back to the days of Queen Anne. Others, I think, are largely determined by an Act passed in the reign of George IV, and, of course, Queen Victoria dominates the whole position. We have had a change of régime here since 1922, that is 27 years.

Though we have had the Electoral Act of 1923, and other Acts regulating the election to the Seanad, we have never had any comprehensive review of the law by which election to this House is controlled and regulated. I think that this matter is becoming one of extreme urgency. We have been lucky enough, perhaps, in this way— that election petitions, and so forth, have gone out of date. But there are other things. There are disqualifications from membership of this House, I think, embodied in some of the Acts. It is time these matters were subject to review. It is time, first of all, to decide whether we should determine that a person who has been convicted of a serious offence should or should not be a member of this House. I think he should not be. But if we come to that decision I think we should provide ourselves with machinery whereby that fact will be brought to the notice of some officer of the House who will call the attention of the House to it and the House should now, when there is no immediate case in the offing, set up well considered machinery to deal with that situation. It will be too late to deal with a situation of that sort when the event occurs because you will hardly get in such circumstances the right approach. It is unlikely that it will be dealt with in the same calm detached way as it can be dealt with now. Would we, for instance, say that a person who is certified to be of unsound mind should be a member of this House? I think most of us would agree that he should not, even though we may have doubts——

Precisely. Deputies may notice that the Minister for Industry and Commerce and myself have a mutual admiration for each other's sanity. Further, we may find ourselves faced with the fact that, due to some unfortunate incident, a person may be confined in a mental institution between the date of his nomination and the date of his election, and may be there when he is elected. If we are agreed that such a person should be incapacitated as a member of this House, how is that going to be brought to the notice of the House itself? There is no machinery at this moment whereby that can be done.

There are a number of other things but I do not want to be too detailed about this matter. There are a number of disqualifications that may occur to one. If a person is found guilty of felony or of an act of treason, are we going to admit him to membership? None of these matters has arisen so far, none of them is likely to arise despite the extent to which some members of the House may have been goaded by the legislation which they have to consider. None of these cases, as I have said, has arisen so far, but if we are to have them dealt with in an impartial, detached way, keeping only the public interest in mind, they should be dealt with now. I am not pressing the Parliamentary Secretary unduly but I do hope that if we agree to the continuance of these two Acts in force for another year, in the meantime this matter will be revived. I hope it is not dead. I hope it has not been put on the long finger because it is a matter that, with the passage of time, is becoming increasingly urgent.

There is just one other matter to which I should like to refer. On the 26th October, Deputy Lemass asked the Minister for Local Government whether galvanised iron buckets now being supplied under contracts made with the combined purchasing section were of Irish manufacture. The Minister for Local Government replied: "Some are of Irish manufacture and some are not. The reasons for accepting some quotations for supplies which are not of Irish manufacture were (a) absence of quotations for Irish articles or for Irish articles solely; (b) non-compliance with specification in the case of Irish articles and (c) price." I do not want for a moment to suggest that the section of the Department which deals with the administration of the Combined Purchasing Act would not, if it were humanly possible for them to procure them, insist upon articles only of Irish manufacture being used. I know from personal experience what is the attitude of the officers administering that section. I had experience of three of them, perhaps four of them, and they have always been very anxious to encourage Irish manufacture where possible, but the position is that they have not full control. I think as the Act stands at present, they have not complete control over the situation. Local authorities are allowed, I think, under the Act of 1925, somewhat more latitude in relation to this question of Irish manufactured articles than it was intended to give under the Act of 1939. I hope that if the Act of 1925 is going to be continued for another year the Parliamentary Secretary acting for the Minister will endeavour to narrow that latitude and to restrict its exercise to the greatest possible extent. We have to remember that the development of Irish industries, to the state in which they now are, has cost our people something and, having got it there, we should not permit the position to be undermined by any local authority which is not prepared to accept as fully as the members of the House do, the fact that, if necessary, we shall make sacrifices in order to maintain our present state of industrial development and to enhance it.

In regard to the complaints made by the last speaker about the operation of the Combined Purchasing Act, I should like to point out, as a member of a local authority for some years past, that we find ourselves in the position of having nothing at all to say with regard to the purchase of goods. We find ourselves in the position that we are just told to take something of a certain quality and if we do not take it, we can, if you like, lump it. Whilst from my boyhood days, I have been very solicitous for the advancement of Irish industries, I would ask that if Irish industries do get preference, they will respect that preference and will give to the local authorities implements and commodities which they could get from outside countries probably at a cheaper price. I think a lot can be said for trying to make these people realise that they are in a very happy position.

The Deputy may not enter into a discussion on Irish manufacture on this Bill, but he may discuss whether or not it is advisable to have combined purchasing.

If I have digressed, I am sorry.

The Deputy sees that himself.

I do not want to subordinate the interests of Irish industries to foreign industries but I want, if possible, to make an appeal which will radiate from this House to the people in charge of Irish industries to give us a decent article. We are ridiculed and pilloried over rates and everything else and it is surprising how the small thing counts in the long run.

The Deputy is discussing Irish industries.

I certainly say that the Parliamentary Secretary should consider the question of the quality of the articles produced by some of these people and purchased under the Combined Purchasing Act.

Combined purchasing is not limited to Irish manufactures and the value of the goods does not arise.

Agreed. I should like to bring to his notice the fact that the supply of certain articles, which cannot very well at the moment be manufactured in this country, is more or less the monopoly of certain firms. I speak of such articles as artificial limbs. I must say that my experience is that we are confined absolutely in the purchase of artificial limbs to a certain firm in a certain city. Artificial limbs are essential to certain people in this country, such as ex-servicemen and other people, who, through no fault of their own, met with accidents. I believe that the Parliamentary Secretary should allow purchases to be conducted on a more liberal basis. I am convinced that in that way we will get a better and more expeditious service. It is not very often that Deputy MacEntee and myself see eye to eye. However, I believe that there is a lot to be said for his suggestion this evening. Undoubtedly, this is a matter that will have to be gone into very carefully, but when you go back to Queen Elizabeth, Queen Anne and Queen Victoria, undoubtedly there is an antediluvian tendency in that type of discussion. I think if we started in modern times and commenced with 1949 or 1950, we would not be doing a bad day's work at all. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will pay special attention to my remarks with regard to the importation of artificial limbs.

The only question is whether or not we should continue the Acts as set out in the Schedule to this Bill, but I do not think that the remarks of Deputy MacEntee were at all out of place. I might point out in the first instance that the two Acts to which he referred merely provide for making petitions where it is alleged that the election of a person to Parliament has been carried out improperly and for meeting the expense of such a petition and of an inquiry that might be held. It is perfectly true for him to say that the electoral law in this country is to a large extent out of date, but fortunately or unfortunately, there are certain sections of these Acts which it is proposed to continue which it is absolutely necessary to continue although they may not relate particularly to our system of election in this country. I think I am right in saying that they have regard only to single-member constituencies and to the single vote, not to the multimember constituency, the transferable vote or the system of election by proportional representation. I should like, however, to allay any fears which the House or Deputy MacEntee might have as far as the existing electoral law of this country is concerned. Early last year the Government gave thorough consideration to the question of the codification of the electoral law and bringing it up to date. Deputy MacEntee and the House will be glad to know that the Department is at present working on the preparation of a Bill to codify it and to bring it up to date.

Deputy Davin raised the question of borrowing by local authorities and I think I could tell him that the Department is also engaged on the preparation of a comprehensive Bill dealing with the matter. I cannot promise that these two Bills will be introduced at an early date because the Department of Local Government and the Minister consider that there is other work which is much more urgent and important especially in present circumstances, and in that respect I might mention that there is much more important work to be done in the matter of legislation in regard to housing. In any case, the Department is working on these two Bills and it is hoped to introduce them as soon as the Department and the Parliamentary Draftsman have prepared them.

Deputy Keane, and I think also Deputy MacEntee, referred to the Combined Purchasing Act. The Combined Purchasing Act of 1925 does allow the local authority a lot of discretion and latitude—possibly it is too wide. As far as the Department is concerned, and by the law, the utmost preference is given to goods of Irish manufacture in the acceptance of these tenders, all things being equal. For Deputy Keane's information, inasmuch as he complained about local authorities being tied down to the purchase of a certain type of goods, the 1939 Act is even a little more strict.

In what way?

It requires the local authority to say at the beginning of the year what they require and insists that they accept everything which they have stated they required.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary agree that there should be more latitude?

I am not going to enter into a controversy at the present time. The only thing before us is whether or not we should continue the Act.

There are anomalies attached to it.

There are, but they may be cleared up when we are considering whether the 1939 Act should be continued in operation.

Live horse and you will get grass. He will have to live for another while.

I am afraid so.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill passed through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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