Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Dec 1949

Vol. 118 No. 15

Private Deputies' Business. - Intoxicating Liquor (Holiday Camps) Bill, 1949—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Hilliard

I am in favour of this Bill. Coming from a constituency in which a holiday camp was erected two years ago and speaking from the experience I have gained as to the actual conditions in the locality in which this camp has been established, I have no hesitation in saying that this Bill is necessary to facilitate this type of industry which has been brought to this country. The Bill is designed to give to a holiday camp the right to sell intoxicating liquor to its bona fide residents. Since their establishment here, these holiday camps had to apply to the local court to get an occasional licence to allow them to sell intoxicating liquor within their precincts. As has been stated by its promoter, Deputy Collins, this Bill was the outcome of a declaration made by a learned judge, when an application came before him for the granting of a licence, that he found the law did not permit him to give a licence in the circumstances. Had the directors, instead of erecting a holiday camp, erected an hotel, and if that building was found to be suitable and of sufficient dimensions, the proprietors could have obtained a licence in the courts in the ordinary way.

This Bill proposes to give authority for the issue of a licence for the sale of intoxicating liquor to a holiday camp. It sets out in detail the circumstances in which a licence can be issued. Application must be made to the Circuit Court and the court must be satisfied with the character and fitness of the applicant, with the fitness of the premises and that the camp is conducted in an orderly manner. The licence is renewable each year and, if the proprietors of the concern do not comply with the restrictions set out in this measure, the local Garda Superintendent can state his reasons in court for opposing the renewal of the licence. The proprietors must satisfy the court that they are complying with the law. The sale of intoxicating liquor will be subject to the law as it stands when the Bill becomes law. The premises in which the drink is sold in the camp are to be open to inspection by the Garda authorities. The Bill proposes that the camp must accommodate at least 1,500 people before the licence can be issued.

Minister for Finance (Mr. McGilligan)

You are reading the wrong section. The Bill says if there is accommodation for 250.

Mr. Hilliard

You are correct. In my opinion, undertakings such as this are entitled to the facilities which the Bill proposes to give. In the Mosney Holiday Camp which I have in mind there are at least 500 people employed during the season. It pays roughly £40,000 in wages per season and 50 per cent. of the residents are Irish nationals. Last year this camp spent in Ireland up to £200,000 on its requirements. During its erection, a County Meath firm obtained in competition an order for £11,000. The camp uses a huge amount of farm produce. At least 14 cattle per week are consumed during the season, hundreds of tons of potatoes, and a huge quantity of other vegetables grown in this country are used in Mosney Camp. It is sound national economy to use within our own country as much of our produce as possible.

All sound economists in this country have maintained down the years that it would be much better for us as a people, in so far as we could, to secure to ourselves the handling, the killing and the using at home of the greatest possible number of our live stock and other agricultural products. I cannot see for the life of me what damage to national morale, or national aspirations a number of cross-Channel visitors are going to do to this country in a period of four and a half months. If the Irish nation is not strong enough in itself to have visitors from abroad for four or five months without suffering irreparable damage, then it is a poor day for our country.

This Bill does not propose to give to the promoters of holiday villages or holiday camps any more facilities for the sale of intoxicating liquor than are given to hotels at the present time. As I said at the opening, if hotels were built by the promoters, instead of holiday villages, there would be no trouble whatever in obtaining licences to sell intoxicating liquor on the premises. This type of holiday is a novel idea, apparently. Many people appear to like it. In my opinion, we should try and facilitate the promoters, first because of the fact that it is good sound national economy to have visitors coming to the country, and secondly, because institutions such as these can in themselves, not only provide plenty of employment, but be the means of giving employment in subsidiary industries as well, especially in the agricultural districts in which the camps were erected.

I commend the Bill to Deputies. I notice that the Minister for Justice stated that he felt that the Bill covers a want in the licensing laws and that he is supporting it. I assume that the Government, as such, are supporting it. I feel that a measure such as this is really Government business. I think that whenever the law needs amendment, or a new situation develops which calls for the passing of legislation, that such matters should be regarded as Government business. When the judge made his declaration, I think the Government should have taken notice of it and should have prepared a measure such as this. In saying that, I am not passing any reflection on the Deputies who introduced the Bill. I am just expressing my opinion on that point. I hope that, if this Bill meets with the approval of the House, we will not have any Deputy, or anybody else, casting any reflections or aspersions either on the Deputies who introduced it or on those who supported it.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

I rise to oppose the Bill as strongly as I possibly can. It is a Bill that seeks special facilities for a group. I think that sectional interests have been more than catered for already. At the moment we have special licensing facilities for people living in cities as against those living in the country. We have special licensing facilities for those who can afford to wine and dine in hotels. I think it would be an extraordinary thing if this House, which has repeatedly refused to give the ordinary countryman the opportunity of having a drink on a Sunday, were to pass a Bill to give drinking facilities to these modern abominations—holiday camps.

I know that there is a preponderance of Dublin Deputies in this House, and that they may all favour this. I want to go on record as saying that I am against the proposal. Are we to be asked to believe that the ladies and gentlemen who come over here from Lancashire can conduct themselves in these holiday camps, while the ordinary countryman must be restrained from getting a drink on Sundays?

Mr. McQuillan

I wish on my own behalf to oppose this Bill as strongly as I possibly can. I had not the opportunity last year of taking part in the debate on Deputy Corry's Bill. I remember there were two Votes here one night. One was on an amendment to the effect that it was contrary to the moral law to sell intoxicating liquor on Sundays. That was passed by this House. To my mind, at any rate, that meant that no "pubs" should be allowed to open on a Sunday.

I was one of those who supported Deputy Corry's motion which proposed to give the same facilities in rural Ireland as are given to the people in the cities. I think there should not be two laws, and that the same facilities should be given to the people in the country as are given to the people in the cities. We have Deputies getting up here who opposed the giving of similar facilities to rural Ireland. They are now welcoming this liquor Bill for the sake of certain interests that have come into this country. I see no reason in the world why any Deputy should put the interests of a few before the interests of our own people. Either close these pubs altogether on a Sunday or open them in the rural places in the same manner as they are opened elsewhere on Sundays.

The total abstinence associations from all over the country wrote to me trying to intimidate me into voting against the opening of rural public-houses on Sundays. I know that they frightened quite a number of Deputies of both sides of the House, Deputies who have been on their feet and will be on their feet to give a licence to this camp. I oppose this proposal.

Mr. P.J. Burke

It is rather interesting to observe the number of converts to this Bill. I happen to be one of the 12 apostles of the Fianna Fáil Party who, with Deputy Corry, voted for the same facilities for the rural man as for the city dweller. What amused me very much was that my two colleagues in County Dublin trotted into the Lobby and voted against Deputy Corry's Bill. They now come along and support this Bill to give facilities to a certain section of the community. As this is a Bill that relates to the tourist industry, I would be false to my principles if I were to oppose it, but I want to make one point quite clear. This Bill deals only with one camp in the country, and that is Butlin's Camp.

Mr. McGilligan

That is not so.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

What about Red Island?

Mr. P.J. Burke

I have the privilege of living in the County Dublin and I know the Red Island Holiday Camp. It is a very well conducted camp, and in it is 100 per cent. Irish capital.

Mr. P.D. Lehane

They say they do not want the Bill.

Mr. S. Collins

Because they have a licence already.

Mr. P.J. Burke

They have had to construct their premises in accordance with the law of this country. On the broad principle of encouraging the tourist industry, I will support this measure, but there is one reservation and that is that the Government should see that justice is equally distributed among all sections of our people. I do not agree with one law for city dwellers, another law for the rural dwellers and yet another law for the privileged classes. It is long overdue that something should be done with the laws covering these aspects.

I will take this opportunity to ask the Minister for Justice when he will stop this rotten system of forcing men from their own villages on Sunday to travel on bicycles three or four miles to visit pubs and then they come home along the roads and meet with accidents.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is outside the scope of this Bill.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I will obey the ruling of the Chair. On the principle that this is a holiday camp and that it was one of the strong points of the Fianna Fáil Party that we should promote the tourist industry, I will support this Bill. Some of the people who are supporting it now at one time decried us for encouraging tourists. I welcome their conversion.

Mr. McQuillan

What about your big luxury hotels? What about your white elephants? What about the £1,000,000 scheme at Glengarriff?

Mr. P.J. Burke

This Bill has been brought in to facilitate one camp.

Mr. McGilligan

No.

Mr. S. Collins

What about Trabolgan?

Mr. P.J. Burke

They have their own pub there.

Mr. S. Collins

So they have in Red Island.

Mr. P.J. Burke

But they have had to construct their premises in accordance with the law. I welcome the converts in the matter of licensing laws. The Tánaiste is the biggest convert. He once referred to our building efforts to encourage tourists as white elephants. He has been converted to the idea that the tourist industry initiated by Fianna Fáil is a sound industry. We know now that it is worth so many millions annually.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not a debate on the tourist industry and the Deputy will not succeed in getting that in on this Bill.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I want to point out to the House that I am only agreeing to this Bill because it will encourage tourists. I agree on the broad principle only. Again I want to register my objection to the granting of certain facilities to certain people while our rural population are denied ordinary facilities.

Mr. Hickey

I am opposing this Bill. I am rather surprised that Deputies would waste the time of the House by bringing such a measure here for consideration. Does any Deputy suggest that we have not sufficient facilities for drinking in this country? I suggest that there are too many such facilities and I am surprised that we have Deputies wasting our time trying to put a Bill through for a few select people. Somebody mentioned that there is only one camp concerned; someone else said there is a second camp. Does anyone suggest there are not sufficient facilities in each of these camps for drinking? I am definitely opposed to this measure.

Mr. O'Donnell

I rise to support this Bill for the simple reason that I think that by accepting the Bill we will be bringing the intoxicating liquor laws up to date. Since 1902 new licences may not be granted unless in exceptional circumstances. There is, for example, the case of an hotel with ten bedrooms set aside for guests. Under the 1902 Act we anticipated further hotels, but we never anticipated camps such as the holiday camps that are now described.

It has been the accepted practice in the courts to insist that hotels applying for licences should have certificates from the Tourist Board. The Tourist Board, unfortunately, cannot issue such certificates to camps such as Butlin's Camp, but provision is made in this Bill whereby such certificates may be issued by the Garda. On the issue of such a certificate the Circuit Court, the competent court to deal with the application, may grant a licence.

I say that camps such as this camp are merely hotels on a scale not anticipated in the 1902 Act and, as such, provision should be made for them under the intoxicating liquor law. I say, further, that by granting a licence to these camps we will automatically do away with the bottle parties which are bound to exist in such camps if licences are not granted for legitimate drinking.

Mr. McQuillan

The bottle parties will still go on.

Mr. O'Donnell

There will be no necessity for them.

Mr. McQuillan

They will bring back plenty of stuff to their billets at 12 o'clock and drink all night.

Mr. O'Donnell

10.30 is the latest hour. I think we will do away with the bottle parties if the people can drink legitimately. It is recognised that one may lead the Irish, but it is very difficult to drive them. If we permit them to drink we shall do away with illegitimate drinking. For that reason I support this Bill.

Mr. M. O'Reilly

I am convinced that this measure is necessary. I am further convinced that, if this measure is defeated here to-night, within a year or two whatever Government is in office will be compelled by force of circumstances to introduce such legislation as this. These camps are a modern development in tourism. We rely upon the tourist industry here. I am weary listening to some gentleman from America preaching to us continually of the necessity for the development of our tourist industry. We must control the industry if we develop it. I take it that the promoter of this Bill seeks such control. Holiday camps are not an abomination. They will develop still further. From what I could see of them they are very orderly concerns. I visited one of them and I considered it really magnificent. The only objection I had to it was that it appeared to be run on a military basis. The discipline was very severe. If this measure is passed there will be no disorder. We need have no apprehension that anything will go wrong because licences are issued. There are all kinds of people in these camps, young and old. Some of them do not drink. Others do. Those who do are compelled at present to go outside. I do not think that should be tolerated. It is kind of punishment on those who want to drink. I think this Bill is essential at the present time. No matter how we may object to it now, we shall be compelled in time to introduce some kind of legislation to give licences to these holiday camps. I hope the House will pass this measure.

Mr. McGrath

As one of the Deputies who followed Deputy Corry into the Division Lobby in order to give the rural people a drink on Sunday, I certainly oppose this Bill. I cannot understand the bare-faced audacity of people who voted against the ordinary working man getting a drink on Sunday now standing up to support the tourists with plenty of money in order to provide them with drink whenever they want it.

Mr. O'Leary

I oppose this Bill. I visited one of these camps on one occasion and it was like being in a foreign country. There were thousands of English people there paying eight guineas a week for their accommodation. It was no holiday camp for workers. There were two bars charging excessive prices for the drinks they supplied. I do not think that these camps should ever have been permitted to start. As one Deputy said there are all kinds in them—young and old. There is mixed bathing and some of them go around almost naked. It is not drink that attracts tourists to this country. If it were true that drink was the attraction, then one could only conclude that the country had gone to the dogs. Deputy Hilliard spoke of all the cattle killed to supply them with meat and the wages paid. For how long? For four months out of the 12. What employment is that? Are the people holding the staff jobs Irish? All the entertainers are English. Very few Irish people have good jobs there.

Mr. Hilliard

Deputy Collins will tell you about it.

Mr. O'Leary

I was there. I was not there on a holiday because I would not be got dead in the place. I did not vote for opening the public houses in rural Ireland on Sundays. I shall not vote for this Bill. I am sorry Deputy Collins has introduced this Bill. Of course the men from Meath must be getting something out of it.

Mr. Hilliard

I protest against that statement.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I did not hear the statement.

Mr. S. Collins

The Deputy said that the Deputies from Meath were getting something out of it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a definite charge.

Mr. Hilliard

I protest against the statement.

Mr. O'Leary

You must have been well canvassed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy withdraw the allegation that the Deputy from Meath got something out of it?

Mr. O'Leary

I withdraw it.

Mr. Corry

They were not as well canvassed as they were the last time.

Mr. O'Leary

There is no doubt about that. I think it is disgraceful that the time of the House should be taken up discussing legislation to provide drink for people who come from the other side. They did not come here for drink during the emergency. They came for food. I think there are enough facilities and I oppose the Bill.

Mr. Briscoe

When the promoter of the Bill is concluding, I would like to get from him some information on a particular point. It was touched on, by accident I take it, by Deputy O'Leary. If this Bill is passed the undertakings described in the Bill will, if they meet the requirements, get a licence.

We all know that these holiday camps will be open, at a maximum, for four months every year from the point of view of attracting tourists from outside. I should like to know whether it is then the intention that the bar side of these undertakings will be open for the rest of the year or whether the undertaking when closed down will at the same time close down bars. I disagree with Deputy O'Leary. I agree with the point of view that if tourists are of any value to the country they are most valuable when they buy drink because they pay a very heavy excise duty which will go to the Exchequer.

Mr. Corry

What about the farmers?

Mr. Briscoe

If we value this tourist business at all we have to provide every facility and attraction for the tourists. If the thousands of tourists continue to come from across the Channel and if they are enabled to spend, in addition to what they pay for their week's keep in the camp, substantial sums of money on drinks, cigarettes, tobacco and so forth then the country is deriving a benefit from these tourists over and above their nominal keep in the hotel. That may be all right during the period of the tourist season but it can be all wrong if the bars are kept open during the off tourist season when local concerns might lose their ordinary trade by reason of the neighbours of the undertaking going into this place for their drink.

The Bill states that if the camp is so constructed as to have accommodation for a certain number of guests—the figure 250 is mentioned in the first section of the Bill—a licence may be granted. Does that mean that there must be guests there or does it mean that just because you have the organisation and no guests you can still carry on under the terms of the licence?

Mr. S. Collins

The licence will have to be applied for at a time when the camp will, in fact, be empty.

Minister for Finance (Mr. McGilligan)

The section is perfectly clear. It means that if the accommodation is there, there need not be a person there.

Mr. Briscoe

On the one hand, when a person applies he must say that he has the necessary arrangements for the requisite accommodation——

Mr. McGilligan

That is all.

Mr. Briscoe

But if he can say that, and he does not get the guests——

Mr. McGilligan

He need never have a guest.

Mr. Briscoe

Then the place becomes an ordinary public house.

Mr. Corry

Is it open for a Sunday drink?

Mr. McGilligan

If it has accommodation for 250 persons it need not have a soul in it.

Mr. Briscoe

Then the locals can come in——

Mr. S. Collins

That is specifically excluded in the Bill. They must be residents.

Mr. Briscoe

Is there going to be the service of drink in this camp the same as in ordinary hotels? In ordinary hotels, during certain hours, anybody can buy a drink. Nearly all of us here can go into an hotel and buy a drink but we are not allowed to be served after certain hours unless we are residents and the residents of the hotel are, in fact, further permitted to bring drink into their own rooms if, when the staff go off duty, they want to continue and have a few drinks.

Mr. S. Collins

That is not going to happen here. No matter what you are, after 10.30 p.m. you are not going to have a drink.

Mr. Hickey

Are you sure?

Mr. S. Collins

Certain.

Mr. McGilligan

He means that it will not be legal to get a drink after 10.30 p.m.

Mr. Briscoe

The Deputy from Donegal who has just spoken mentioned something that is correct. We are operating licensed premises under what could be called to-day antiquated Acts dating back to 1902. If the licensing laws need amending and need to be brought up to date in this connection and other connections surely the Minister for Justice should have brought a Bill in.

Mr. McQuillan

Hear, hear.

Mr. Briscoe

The Minister for Justice indicated on a previous occasion—when what we now refer to as Deputy Corry's measure was brought in—that he was considering a general overhaul of the licensing laws. I take it that we are all looking forward to these new improvements. I was wondering why it is that the Minister for Justice has not now taken this need, if it is a definite need, as a further excuse for bringing in a measure which would also embody and include this. It has been stated that it is a bad precedent——

Minister for Justice (General MacEoin)

The Minister will bring in his own measure and he does not interfere with the rights of any Deputy.

Mr. Briscoe

I do not know the Minister's view on this. I do not know whether he is going to support it or not. If the Minister approves of this measure he should at least have said: "I am going to bring in my own licensing laws as soon as I can and they will include something of this nature to provide for this particular need."

Mr. Fitzpatrick

There is an objection to that. Does the Deputy not realise that there is opposition to any measure which is introduced by the Government? Is this not a much better idea? After all, we are free to discuss it among ourselves.

Mr. Briscoe

I am afraid Deputy Fitzpatrick is even more simple than I thought. It is true that he has not long been a member of this House but even in the short time he has been here he must have knowledge of measures which went through this House, while we were in opposition, as agreed measures. There are many measures on which there is agreement from all sides of the House. Certain amendments may be suggested from all sides of the House to make a Bill perhaps a better Bill. It is not fair to say—and I do not think the Minister will agree with the Deputy—that a measure was not brought in by the Minister because he feared that Fianna Fáil would oppose it.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

I did not suggest that. I said that this was a better idea and that we are free to discuss the measure ourselves.

Mr. Briscoe

I heard the Deputy. I can only give my own interpretation of what he said.

Mr. Corry

What I want to know is, what are you doing for the country boys? How are you going to vote?

Mr. Briscoe

The "country boys", as Deputy Corry calls them, have been promised some alleviation by the Minister when he brings in his measure.

Mr. Corry

But what is being done here?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Now, Deputy Corry must not interrupt.

Mr. Briscoe

Maybe one of the Ministers will reply. Normally, when you give a licence in respect of a premises for the sale of alcoholic drinks one assumes they are to be sold there all the year round. Here, we are legislating to give facilities for the sale of alcoholic drinks for a limited period— and we know it is going to be a limited period. Why is there not some restriction, however, in the Bill to the effect that in the off-season of tourist trade, when the camp is closed down, that, at the same time, the bar should be closed down? I do not know what the view of the Minister for Justice is on that matter and I do not know whether the proposer would agree that there should be some clause to the effect that during the off-season— whether it is for six months or for eight months in the year—the sale of liquor should not be conducted in these premises but only during the period of the tourist trade.

Mr. S. Collins

The only reason for the 12 months is that in the event of circumstances arising whereby one of these camps was used for the purpose of holding a convention or a special meeting or an international meeting, and so forth, they then would not have to apply for extra licensing facilities. There is no intention of any other kind.

Mr. Briscoe

The Bill is simple enough. That could be stated in it.

Mr. S. Collins

I am prepared to accept an amendment to that effect from the Deputy.

Mr. Briscoe

I am only seeking information. I only want to make this Bill a Bill to deal with what it is intended to deal with. The proposer says that he is prepared to accept an amendment that the licence will not operate during the off-season except on occasions when there may be a convention or some international gathering held in these camps, when of course the licensing facilities will be available. There is no objection to that but I do feel that if the Bill is allowed to stand in its present form, it is something about which Deputy Corry's country boys might justifiably have a grievance. One thing we want to ensure is that, merely because it happens to be a holiday camp, nobody can go there for a day or a week-end during the off-season and claim the right to be served with drink for the period of his stay. We should not leave the Bill in a form that would mean that such traffic would be invited.

I do not know whether I shall introduce an amendment such as the Deputy says he is prepared to accept because it will depend in large measure on what the sponsor of the Bill will have to say when he is replying to the debate. In conclusion, I should like to say that we must differentiate between the ordinary licensing laws applying to our own people and measures of this kind. This is something which we believe will serve as an attraction to bring additional tourists to the country and encourage them to spend their money here. It is not intended as anything else. We have got to say either that we do not want tourists or that we want to try to attract them. I consider, as many others do—and the figures prove it—that the tourist traffic is of the utmost value. There is an annual income of over £30,000,000 from it and if we can help the Exchequer by getting additional contributions, in the form of taxes on liquor and tobacco from these tourists, then we are not doing a bad day's work.

Mr. C. Lehane

I feel that this Bill has been a little bit unfortunate in the approach that has been made to it by many Deputies in the speeches I heard on it. While I might not agree with the sentiments underlying the speeches made by Deputies O'Donnell and Briscoe, I felt, nevertheless, that they approached the Bill in a more realistic manner than most other Deputies. The name of a certain firm of amusement caterers, to whom I do not propose to give any free advertisement, has been bandied around this House in connection with the Bill. I do not think we are entitled to approach the Bill in that way. When Dáil Éireann passes legislation, it indicates what is contained in the particular provision with which it deals and I do not think Deputies are entitled to go behind the terms of the Bill to refer to what they think is in the mind of the person promoting it. What we are concerned with here is what is set down in the measure circulated amongst us.

Captain Cowan

And whether it serves a social purpose.

Mr. C. Lehane

Exactly. What we are entitled to examine is what is contained in the Bill. We are not entitled to examine, I suggest, into the motives that may have occasioned the introduction of the measure. As this Bill stands, subject to some amendments which I feel would not be acceptable to those promoting it, I think it should be given a Second Reading. I think that perhaps we might be inclined to enact this into our law subject to very definite safeguards and qualifications. So far as I am concerned, I would not be prepared to vote for any Bill which conferred, or made it possible to confer on an alien, a non-national, a right to the type of licence envisaged in this Bill. If an amendment with that intent were accepted by the proposer, then I might see my way to support the Bill. This right, as has been said here, to reasonable facilities must be given to tourists coming into this country. More probably than any member on this side of the House, I have been attacked by Deputies in the Party opposite because of a certain attitude I took on the question of tourists. Anything I ever said in that regard I am prepared to say here and now. I do believe that when you had a condition of affairs in which certain classes of food were in short supply, that was not a time to develop the tourist industry. We could not afford to feed tourists when we were not able to feed our own people. I would, however, endorse the views expressed by Deputy Briscoe, that it is reasonable to give facilities to attract tourists if the tourist industry is worth developing, as I believe it is. Those facilities should be reasonster' able and they should be limited by the application of safeguards.

I think, as has been suggested, that the rights of ordinary small traders who are dependent on the licensed trade in any area where it is proposed to set up a camp should be protected and that some big mammoth concern should not be in a position to come in and simply put them out of business. The Bill would call for some amendment in that respect so that the rights of these people and their workers would be protected. Finally, I should like even at this late stage to suggest to the Minister for Justice that it would be much preferable if this position had been examined by his Department and if a comprehensive measure bringing our licensing laws into conformity with the requirements of the present day, were introduced by him. I do not know whether it is too late for the Minister to consider taking that course now but it is a matter that will have to be examined by him or by his successors at some future date.

Mr. Allen

This Bill has been described as a former Bill was described as a freak measure. Personally I believe it is a freak Bill. The suggestion has been made that the Minister for Justice should take the responsibility for all licensing laws in the country. I also would appeal to the Minister to have this Bill withdrawn and to take responsibility for holiday camps. If licences for the sale of intoxicating liquor are to be given to these camps, it is the Government and the Government alone that should take the responsibility. There are provisions in this Bill which the Government could not stand over or would not stand over, I am sure. If it were passed and if you call the existing county homes holiday camps they should get these facilities. There is nothing to stop them and probably they would be just as entitled to get them as some of the holiday camps.

There are some peculiar provisions in the Bill. A holiday camp must have proper residential accommodation for at least 250 guests—200 or 150 would not do. It must have a rateable valuation of £200. There is another extraordinary provision in Section 13 under which the valuation could be broken up and the licensee would not have to pay licence duty on the full valuation. Deputy Collins and those who advised him in drafting the Bill made no mistake in the interests of the people who are to get this licence —if they do get it. It will be at the expense of the State anyhow.

Personally I am opposed to the Bill in principle. As I said before, there are sufficient facilities in the country for anyone who requires a drink outside the prohibited hours. There is something asked for in this Bill which no ordinary licensed trader has. A hotel licence and an ordinary licensed trader's kind of licence can be given under the Bill. There is to be a double licence. Not satisfied with a hotel licence, the promoters are looking for an additional licence.

Mr. S. Collins

It is less than a hotel licence.

Mr. Allen

They are also looking for many other things. Power is to be given to the licensee to restrict the sale of drink in any way he wishes and to refuse drink at any time of the day that he wishes. That is a most extraordinary provision. If any alterations of the existing licensing laws are needed, it is the Government that should introduce them. It should not be the function of private Deputies to introduce licensing laws. They might as well introduce revenue laws changing the taxation in one way or another. The Dáil should reject this Bill on principle, if for no other reason. The Bill is dangerous in many respects. It gives something to certain areas because there are holiday camps existing in them. It gives facilities to certain areas that other rural areas are denied. That is class legislation, sectional legislation and legislation that is likely to be abused.

I am sure all Deputies received a circular by post this morning from the managing director of the Red Island Holiday Camp. This circular states:

"The company of which I have the honour to be managing director are the owners and operators of the Red Island Holiday Camp. We are the only holiday camp in this State which is 100 per cent. Irish controlled. Regarding the Bill at present before the Dáil, we have to state that we were not consulted regarding it, nor are we interested in it or concerned about it."

Mr. S. Collins

Does the Deputy know why?

Mr. Allen

I know nothing about it.

Mr. S. Collins

Because they have a hotel licence already.

Mr. Allen

That is the circular I received by post. It is no harm to have it put on the records of the House. I sincerely hope that the Dáil will reject this Bill because I think it is a bad Bill. There are provisions in it which I am sure no Government could stand over. Personally, I believe that anything that seeks to give special facilities to a number of small rural areas in this country is bad. If these facilities are needed in these rural areas, they are needed in all the rural areas, but I do not believe they are.

Captain Cowan

I fear that this Bill is not being approached in the correct way. I want to put on record my complete disagreement with the proposition put forward by Deputy Allen, that private Deputies should not introduce Bills of this character. What are we sent here for? If nobody else will introduce them——

Minister for Justice (General MacEoin)

It is the privilege and right of Deputies.

Captain Cowan

Yes, it is their privilege and their right. I hope Deputies will jealously guard the right to introduce legislation whether affecting holiday camps or housing or anything else.

Mr. C. Lehane

It is not a desirable way to deal with it.

Captain Cowan

No matter whether it is desirable or undesirable, one thing which each Deputy must keep in mind is that we have rights as individual Deputies and that we will not surrender them or suggest that they should be taken from us. I have read the Bill and I believe that it fulfils our absolute necessity. I am not one of those people who want to pat themselves on the back and say: "I am a teetotaller." I am not; I enjoy a drink and, if I go to a holiday camp, as I may in the future, I would be teriribly disappointed if, when I felt the necessity for refreshment, I could not have something with which to refresh myself. We ought to be reasonable in our approach to this matter.

I do not accept the viewpoint of Deputy Corry, who says: "I introduced a licensing Bill and you would not pass it; therefore nobody else is going to get any facilities for getting drink until my Bill is passed." That is holding the pistol up to the head and it is wrong to hold the pistol up to the head. Deputy Corry is very anxious that there should be facilities in rural areas and with that I am sure the great majority of Deputies agree.

Mr. Corry

What happened them, then?

Captain Cowan

That Bill was before the House and it was suggested that there were quite a number of matters in connection with licensing legislation which required to be considered and that, when that consideration was complete, a comprehensive measure would be introduced which would deal with that and other matters. That is reasonable. The licensing laws in this country are in a shocking state of confusion. I am quite sure that the Minister for Justice and his advisers are taking the opportunity of dealing in a comprehensive way with these laws. If they succeed in unravelling that tangle of licensing legislation and if they are able to bring in a Bill which will simplify it, make it readily understood and reasonably easy for a person, whether he is in a rural or in a city area, to have reasonable refreshment at reasonable times, then I am sure it will receive a very genuine welcome from the House as a whole.

Let me put this proposition to the House. Holiday camps have been established, and more will be established in the future. I have always advocated that holiday camps ought to be established by the State for the families of workers in the coastal areas. I can see that camps of that nature will be established in the not too distant future. Whether a person goes to one of these camps with a lot of money, or a little money, it will be a magnificent thing for him, if he feels the necessity for a little alcoholic refreshment, that it should be available for him. I think that this Bill provides for that.

There seems to be the idea that nobody goes to holiday camps except very wealthy people. That is a delusion. The very wealthy people do not go to them. The people who do go to them are, in the main, workers and workers' families who save over a long period the sum of money which enables them to enjoy a holiday for a week or a fortnight at some particular resort. I know that from my own personal knowledge of the people who go to these camps. That being so, why should this House say that the people who go to these holiday camps, which are much cheaper than a first-class hotel would be, should be denied the facilities that they could get if they had enough money to go to a first-class hotel and spend their holiday there? Is not that the answer to it? Eight guineas a week for a man and his wife and a couple of children which has been saved over the year, is not a very big sum.

These holiday camps fill an essential social need and so they ought to have the facilities that would be available to them under the provisions of this Bill of being able to supply alcoholic beverages. I do not know what the licensing duty will be in these places. It is a matter for the Minister for Finance to consider. Obviously, it should be more than the licence duty that is paid by the average tavern, average public house or the average hotel with a hotel licence. That is a matter that may be considered.

On the general principle we have got to adopt this line, that either we are a lot of hypocrites—those of us who drink—when we say that drinking is bad, or we are a lot of narrow-minded people like the temperance members amongst us who say that nobody should be entitled to get alcoholic liquor under any circumstances in these camps. The camps are doing a lot of useful work. They are not entirely peopled by tourists. They are peopled, in the main, and will be peopled in the main not by tourists but by our own people and they are entitled to reasonable facilities in the matter of refreshments.

As far as I can see, a person who has saved a sum of money over a period of 12 months to enable him to enjoy a holiday is not going to go on a shocking bend for the fortnight or the week that he is at the camp. I would, therefore, ask the House to approach this Bill in an attitude of realism. There may be things in it that we do not agree with but these can be dealt with by way of amendment when we come to discuss it in Committee. There will then be an opportunity to improve the Bill perhaps out of recognition. I think all of us ought to be agreed on the general principle that holiday camps are entitled to have facilities in the matter of alcoholic refreshment for their guests. On that basis, and in that attitude of mind, I give the Bill my full support on this stage.

Mr. A.P. Byrne

I desire to say that I support the three main points which have been made by the last speaker. First of all, I resent Deputy Allen's attitude that the Government alone should be responsible in matters of this sort. The Dáil and the Seanad have the responsibility of making the laws. Secondly, I resent the attitude of those who followed Deputy Corry's line and say that because the Dáil refused to support the Deputy's first Bill and his second Bill that it should now throw out this Bill. I think that is a very childish and peevish attitude to adopt. I do not think Deputies should get huffy about this Bill, but should discuss it on its merits. Thirdly, I support Deputy Cowan in the view that the main effect of this Bill will be to provide for working-class people the same facilities which rich people can have by going to expensive hotels in places like Ballybunion, Glengariff and Killarney.

Mr. Desmond

I have very little to say on the Bill. I would not have spoken at all were it not for the speeches of Deputy Cowan and Deputy Byrne. I want to say that I take the same view on it as Deputy Corry. I went to see what one of these holiday camps was like. There is no use in Deputies saying that they are for our own people. They are not. The people who go to them are, to put it in plain words, stone mad. If we continue our attitude to them they will be worse. It is only right to point out that Deputies who were afraid to give these facilities to our local people in the country on a Sunday are now trying to make an excuse for that. My opinion is that, if Deputies are prepared to give the added facilities which they have been pleading for to these holiday camps, it will be necessary to have mental homes very near to them in the future.

Mr. S. Collins

In my opinion, the opposition in general to this Bill has been misconceived. I do not think any member of the House has been more fearless in his assertion that the man in the country should be able to get a drink on a Sunday than I have. I think that some Deputies have approached this Bill possibly through a cloud of various misapprehensions. The position is that a learned judge of the Circuit Court indicated that such a form of legislation would have to be introduced before he could accede to the granting of a licence.

Deputy Hickey has suggested that there are facilities enough in the camp already for drinking. This Bill is only regularising and stopping a gap in the legislation. It will not give to any holiday camp even the facilities that an ordinary publican has because the hotel owner or the publican can exercise the privilege of the bona fide trade up to 12 o'clock. Under this Bill it does not matter who you are if you are in a holiday camp; legally, as the Minister for Finance suggests, after 10.30 you cannot get a drink.

If you examine this Bill outside a condition of pique or outside misconceived ideas, you will find that all it does is this: If the camp is small enough to be regarded as an hotel, it could as of right get a better licence than this Bill would provide it with. But because a camp is bigger than an hotel, and does not come within the definition of an hotel, why should we as reasonable people deny that camp the right to have a licence?

All kinds of queer motives have been imputed and various remarks have been bandied about the House, but some of the Deputies who spoke obviously did not trouble to read the Bill. If they did they would find that, in the main, all it proposes to do is to lay down certain statutory provisions and, if these are fulfilled, a certificate may be issued to the holiday camp. Then the holiday camp has to go through the same process of law as any ordinary applicant and it has to satisfy the Circuit Court, the competent authority, in the same way as any other licensee must satisfy it.

I completely negative and aggressively oppose the suggestion that any body will curtail my right to introduce legislation that I think is necessary in the public interest. That is a shameful suggestion, unworthy of the Deputy who made it. It could be argued that it is the Minister for Justice who should have introduced this Bill. The Minister for Justice indicated that the whole licensing code needs revision. I agree that it does, but I do not know how soon the Minister for Justice may be able to introduce that legislation. If he does introduce it there is nothing to stop him from incorporating in it whatever provisions the House may think fit to incorporate in this Bill.

This country is endeavouring to attract tourists and, in the situation brought about by devaluation, we are endeavouring to attract the maximum American tourist trade.

Mr. O'Leary

Give them Guinness.

Mr. S. Collins

There were a lot of good things built in this country out of Guinness, even though Deputy O'Leary might not know it. In this Bill we are giving less to a holiday camp than it might have got if the promoters, the people who invested their money in it, had made it smaller than a camp and made it into an hotel.

I commend the Bill to the House be cause I regard it as something that is necessary. It is catering for a type of industry that will develop. Why should we allow any narrow-minded prejudice to obtrude upon what may well be a very valuable development in this country?

Deputy Cogan has suggested that this is a piece of freak legislation conceived by a freak mind. I suggest to Deputy Cogan that he should examine his own freak conscience.

This is a piece of legislation designed to enable a holiday camp, because it does not come within the narrow confines of the existing licensing code, to get a licence. There may be features in this Bill that have caused some Deputies trouble. I think Deputy Cogan was genuine in his reference to one thing that caused him trouble.

I present this Bill to the House in all sincerity. It may have imperfections, but there is a Committee Stage. I welcome the views expressed by Deputies. I am anxious to achieve only one purpose with this Bill, and that is that holiday camps will be enabled to get licences and so encourage a greater tourist trade. Any reasonable amendments that Deputies may have to offer will be welcomed in the same spirit as that in which this Bill was introduced, a spirit completely reasonable and nonpartisan.

Mr. Cogan

Does this Bill not permit the sale of drink on Christmas Day, Good Friday and St. Patrick's Day?

Mr. S. Collins

I can clear that point up in this way. At the moment none of the camps is open at that time of the year, but if a camp were open this Bill would permit no greater facilities to bona fide residents within the camp than would be permitted to them if they were staying in an hotel.

Mr. Cogan

But there is nothing to prevent it?

Mr. S. Collins

As I have already told the Deputy, I can see a flaw in the Bill in relation to that matter, a flaw that I want to stop myself.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 42; Níl, 60.

Tá

• Belton, John.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Byrne, Alfred Patrick.
• Childers, Erskine H.
• Coburn, James.
• Collins, Seán.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Costello, John A.
• Cowan, Peadar.
• Crotty, Patrick J.
• Davern, Michael J.
• Dockrell, Maurice E.
• Donnellan, Michael.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Dunne, Seán.
• Fitzpatrick, Michael.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Hughes, Joseph.
• Keyes, Michael.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• Lehane, Con.
• Lynch, John.
• MacEoin, Seán.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• Madden, David J.
• Maguire, Patrick J.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Norton, William.
• O'Donnell, Patrick.
• O'Gorman, Patrick J.
• O'Higgins, Thomas F.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Sullivan, Martin.
• Palmer, Patrick W.
• Redmond, Bridget M.
• Reidy, James.
• Rooney, Eamonn.
• Sheldon, William A.W.
• Sweetman, Gerard.
• Timoney, John J.
• Walsh, Richard.

Níl

• Allen, Denis.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Beegan, Patrick.
• Beirne, John.
• Blaney, Neal T.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Brennan, Joseph P.
• Brennan, Thomas.
• Davin, William.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• Desmond, Daniel.
• Fagan, Charles.
• Flynn, John.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Friel, John.
• Gilbride, Eugene.
• Giles, Patrick.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Halliden, Patrick J.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hickey, James.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, James.
• Kinane, Patrick.
• Kissane, Eamon.
• Kitt, Michael F.
• Lahiffe, Robert.
• Larkin, James.
• Lehane, Patrick D.
• Lydon, Michael F.
• Browne, Noel C.
• Browne, Patrick.
• Byrne, Alfred.
• Cogan, Patrick.
• Collins, James J.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Corry, Martin J.
• Crowley, Honor Mary.
• MacBride, Seán.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGrath, Patrick.
• McQuillan, John.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Moran, Michael.
• Moylan, Seán.
• Murphy, William J.
• O Briain, Donnchadh.
• O'Higgins, Michael J.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Reilly, Patrick.
• O'Rourke, Daniel.
• Roddy, Joseph.
• Ruttledge, Patrick J.
• Ryan, James.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Spring, Daniel.
• Tully, John.
• Walsh, Thomas.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Dunne and Rooney; Níl: Deputies Cogan and Esmonde.

Question declared lost.