Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Feb 1950

Vol. 119 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 30—Agricultural Produce Subsidies.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £375,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1950, for Agricultural Produce Subsidies, etc.

In fact, Sir, this sum is required to complete the Charge that will come in course of payment in this financial year for subsidies on the production of dairy produce and an allowance for storage of butter for winter consumption. It may appear remarkable that so large a sum should be sought by way of Supplementary Estimate in regard to this Vote and, indeed, it is, but our Estimate was framed on a reasonably optimistic forecast of what our best efforts, sustained, I must admit, by exceptionally clement weather, could achieve in the matter of butter production and of milk supply. I am happy to report to the House that our most extreme optimism was far surpassed by our performances. The total intake of milk into the creameries of this country in 1947 was 154,000,000 gallons. In 1948 it was 170,000,000 gallons, and in 1949 209,000,000 gallons. It is relevant, I think, to mention for the information of the House that, without exception, since 1938 no production figure approaching that has been recorded, and it is also a matter of passing interest, at least, to record that the increase of 39,000,000 gallons between 1948 and 1949 is of an order unprecedented in the period over which our records extend. The highest milk deliveries to our creameries were recorded in 1934, when we had 210,000,000 gallons; in 1935, when we had 219,000,000 gallons; in 1936, when we had 236,000,000 gallons; in 1937, when we had 210,000,000 gallons, and in 1938, when we had 212,000,000 gallons. Then they began to decline and they continued to decline until 1947, when they turned up again. In the years prior to that, the figure of 209,000,000 was never remotely approached.

Although there is occasion for congratulation to the dairy farmers who succeeded in thus expanding their production, it is right to recall that on every hundredweight of butter now produced the State pays a subsidy of approximately £4. It is a little less than £4. Since I became responsible for this Department, I have collaborated to the limit of my capacity with the creamery societies to find alternative outlets for milk supplies which would permit of the product being sold on an economic market which would not involve the Exchequer in any charge at all. These efforts have been attended with some measure of success and they are proceeding.

It may occur to some Deputies that it is odd that there should continue to be rationing of butter in the presence of this great abundance. I remember Deputy Dr. Ryan, last June or thereabouts, when it became possible to increase the butter ration to eight ounces, saying that he thought I had acted recklessly and precipitately, because I might find myself without any butter wherewith to supply the demand when November or December came. I know that he has noted the falsification of his prognostications with satisfaction and admiration. The ringing accents in which he has declared these sentiments cannot have failed to reach the ears of the most inattentive sections of our community.

A very interesting fact appears to emerge from this increase in the butter ration. When we increased the butter ration to eight ounces from six ounces, according to the known statistics then, at six ounces we were consuming 50,000 cwts. per month. We assumed that when the butter ration was increased by 33? per cent., we must be prepared to make provision for a corresponding issue of butter and that the consumption of butter would rise from 50,000 cwts a month to something in the order of 66,000 cwts. a month but that did not happen. In fact, the issue of butter rose to about 60,000 cwts. and has never shown the slightest tendency to rise above it. This would suggest that a total issue of butter measured by one ½lb. per head of the population is approximately saturation point for butter consumption, on the most favourable terms, because all that butter carries a subsidy of 7d. or 8d. a lb.

Now, in that context, we must recall that, while much may be said for subsidising butter to the tune of £4 a cwt. for consumption by our own people, a very different aspect is assumed by the problem if our production reaches a point at which a substantial part of it must be exported. I have no relish for the prospect of paying anybody outside our own country £4 per cwt. to eat our butter. However, I suppose prudence suggests that we meet our problems when they cross our path and that we should not unduly anticipate difficulties which may never arise. I hope things may turn out in such a way as to ensure that an ever-increasing production by our dairy farmers will never fall to be described as a "difficulty".

I have here a record of the efforts we have made to date to divert the use to which creameries put the milk supplied to them from butter production, once we had reached what appeared to be saturation point, to other milk products for which there was a ready export market at remunerative prices. In 1945, the total intake of milk was 178,000,000 gallons, of which 11.8 per cent. was used for the manufacture of commodities other than butter; in 1946, 165,000,000 gallons were received by the creameries, of which 13.5 per cent. was used for purposes other than butter production; in 1947, 154,000,000 gallons were received, of which 13.5 was used for purposes other than butter production; in 1948, 170,000,000 gallons were received, of which 14.1 per cent. was used for purposes other than butter production; in 1949, 209,000,000 gallons were received, of which 14.9 per cent. was used for purposes other than the production of butter.

I respectfully request the House to do me the favour of passing this Estimate some time to-night, for this reason. The Estimates are so drawn that the Vote upon which provision for butter is made contains no other subhead and, therefore, the butter subsidy cannot be supplemented ad interim from savings on some other sub-head of the Vote.

I have, in fact, asked the Dairy Disposals Board to get along without production allowance for six or seven weeks, so that I might use the available fund voted by the Dáil to keep the small co-operative creameries in funds, without imposing the strain upon them of a delay. I acknowledge gratefully the assistance afforded by some of the larger co-operative creameries, who have gladly forgone the monthly payments in order to leave some money in the pool available for the small creameries who would find it an embarrassment.

I doubt if I am in a position to maintain monthly payments to all the small creameries with regularity, unless this provision is made this week. I do not want to press the Dáil unduly. There will be no bankruptcies or collapses if the week has to elapse. Most of them will tide over the problem. However, if the convenience of the Dáil can be met by making this grant some time this evening, I think it would be appreciated by a number of small creameries who must make special arrangements to secure finance to bridge the gap for the fortnight or whatever period might eventuate if no money is available to maintain the regular production payments which they depend on receiving in accordance with a certain programme.

Mr. Smith

As far as I am concerned, this Supplementary Estimate will not be delayed unduly. I would like to say a few words on this matter of the figures which we have just heard from the Minister and to draw his attention to how misleading those figures can be —to his own knowledge. I am sure. I do not want in any way to take away from the fact that increased deliveries to creameries have taken place, but let us not fool ourselves by the figures which have just been quoted. The Minister will agree, I think, that as far as milk production in the country is concerned, about half of that milk production normally went to the creameries. The Minister himself has quoted figures here, showing milk deliveries to creameries in the years 1934, 1935, 1936, 1937 and, I think, as far as 1938, when a new situation immediately set in for the years that followed.

There were scarcities of many commodities, scarcities of fats of one kind or another, and there was a severe system of butter rationing. In many cases where farmers had long distances to send their milk to creameries, or had extensive routes to follow, it became profitable for them to convert the milk into butter at home. That situation prevailed for the years 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941 and on to 1947. It was only when the scheme for the subsidisation of farmers' butter was dropped by the Minister that farmers who had creameries within their reach had no alternative but to send their milk to the creameries. In addition to that fact, the Minister was obliged to remove the restrictions on the haulage of milk imposed in the normal way by the Road Transport Act, 1934, and to permit milk to be conveyed very long distances indeed in a manner that was not possible at any previous time.

I am only drawing attention to these facts which I am sure must be within the knowledge of the Minister. Figures such as those to which we have listened are all right in themselves but do not present a true picture of the whole position.

I have no objection to the passage of this Supplementary Estimate. It raises no point, as far as I am aware, but I should say that in the war years, during my time, we too were considering the possibility of converting milk and diverting it into other channels for reasons not very different from the reasons the Minister, I am sure, now has in mind. At that time, we were not as free as he, I am glad to say, finds himself, in that there was a butter shortage and we could not take advantage of the opportunities then presented to us to raise the percentage of milk diverted in that way. At that time, one could not, from the point of view of public policy, justify following that course as vigorously as that course should now be pursued.

Mr. Cogan

Every Deputy will welcome the evidence that there is an actual increase in the production of creamery butter and an apparent increase in the production of butter generally. I think the House would have welcomed figures from the Minister showing the extent to which the creamery areas have been enlarged and the extent to which new suppliers have been brought into the creameries. Such figures would show to what extent this increase in the volume of butter represents an actual increase in butter production and to what extent it may be offset by a reduction in the total output of farmers' butter.

I am quite convinced, from my knowledge of my own and adjoining counties, that there must have been a falling off in the production of farmers' butter during the past year because, certainly, only a fool would produce farmers' butter at the prices that were being offered. In a matter of this kind, it is very difficult to obtain a reliable figure. Farmers' butter is produced on the farms. Some of it is consumed on the farms. Some of it is sold locally. There can hardly be any accurate record of the volume of production. At any rate, it is logical to expect that there was a certain reduction last year. I know of farmers who specialised in the production of farmers' butter for sale who went out of that business during the past year and who, perhaps, found other lines of production more remunerative.

I am not sure that it is a sound policy for the State to kill home production of farmers' butter. That is what the present policy amounts to. The present policy of heavily subsidising creamery butter and depriving home-produced butter of any subsidy whatever, must inevitably have the effect of wiping out home production of butter for sale. Possibly, the Minister may say that that is a good policy in the long run, that creamery butter is the superior product. I do not agree with that. I think home-produced farmers' butter is the superior product and if anything can be done to help continued production of farmers' butter that policy should be adopted. I make that case particularly in view of the extension of rural electrification. Rural electrification will take a considerable amount of the drudgery out of the production of farmers' butter. It will enable separating and churning to be done by mechanical means and in that way will enable the farmer to produce on up-to-date lines. Government policy seems to be definitely directed against that line of production. As far as I know, there is very little departmental instruction in home butter-making now. The instructors in poultry-keeping and butter-making are confining their activities to poultry production. That aspect of policy should be carefully considered. We should aim at maximum output and at getting the product which is the best from all points of view.

With regard to external markets, I am sure that creamery butter is the only butter that can be exported. There again I would like the Minister to say something as to the prospects of getting a remunerative price for exported butter and to indicate if there is any possibility of doing so. We are all quite willing to join in drowning the British people with eggs but I do not think that we would like to be committed to choking them with cheap butter at the expense of the Irish taxpayer.

It may be possible to find an external market for butter but I have very grave doubts. Therefore, we all welcome any proposals which seek to promote the production of an alternative to butter for export purposes. We hope—and I think we can depend upon it—that the Department are doing everything possible in that respect. I have often wondered, however, if we are doing enough to promote the consumption of increased quantities of whole milk. I feel that the Irish people as a nation do not consume anything like the quantity of raw milk that they ought to consume. It would be to their benefit nutritionally and would raise the general standard of health and the general standard of living. Milk is a very dear food at the present time but it is still cheaper than stout. Some very intensive effort should be made by the Department to popularise and extend the consumption of whole milk. There is, of course, a certain amount of prejudice against milk consumption. Many people claim that it is not wholesome in that it may not be free from bacteria and may not be perfectly clean. That is a matter which can be rectified and, having been rectified, very intensive efforts should be made to extend and promote the consumption of milk. That would, I think, relieve the position so far as an export surplus is concerned, a surplus for which there may not be a suitable and profitable market.

Mr. Corry

My main objection to this subsidy is that it is not sufficient to pay the difference in the costs of production of milk as between 1947-'48, when the Minister took over, and the present time. The price of milk still remains at the old figure, despite enormously increased production costs. Another objection is that the removal of the subsidy from home-made butter drove these unfortunate people, who were without any protection and who were entitled to the protection of this House at least, off the market altogether, and the fact that they have been discriminated against by receiving no subsidy for their butter while a subsidy is paid on creamery butter is, to my mind, very unjust, particularly when the steps which we were told would be taken by the Minister with regard to bringing branch creameries or travelling creameries to these people have not been taken. I should like to know from the Minister how far he has gone in that respect.

I have a very definite objection to paying a subsidy on butter exported from this country, while, at the same time, there is in operation here a rationing system to prevent our people from getting all the butter they require, and I should like to have a guarantee from the Minister that, before any butter is exported, carrying with it a subsidy from the taxpayers, the rationing of butter here will cease. Our people should be able to get all the butter they require before we start paying the taxpayers' money in order to give cheap butter to John Bull or anybody else.

We have complete silence from the Deputies who were very vocal when in opposition on the question of the uneconomic price being paid for milk and we had an admission at the Fine Gael Árd-Fheis that the farmer's costs of production in respect of rates and labour have gone up. If these costs have gone up, as we all know they have, surely that situation should be met by a corresponding increase in the price of milk. As against that, we are told about the increased production, but, although we had an extraordinarily mild year and although we are two years after a scare period so far as feeding stuffs are concerned, the production of milk this year is not equal to the production in the last normal year, 1938, that is, taking into consideration the quantity of milk which at that period was being converted into home butter and is now being driven into the creameries by a very definite compulsion.

I should like to hear something definite from the Minister on: (1) the fact that no allowance whatever is being made for any subsidy for home butter; (2) the fact that no allowance is made in this subsidy for paying an increased price to cover the increased costs of the production of milk; and (3) some guarantee that no butter will be exported until rationing has ceased here. I am not a believer in paying a subsidy from the Irish taxpayer to somebody else to eat our butter while anybody is prepared to eat it here.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Donnchadh O Briain

Ba mhaith liom focal no dhó a rá i dtaobh an Meastacháin Breise seo.

The introduction of this by the Minister is simply the honouring of an undertaking—

Mr. Dillon

Abair i nGaeilge é.

Mr. Commons

Más féidir leat.

Eamon de Valera

Lean leat i nGaeilge.

Donnchadh O Briain

Go maith; táim sásta. Níl ins an Meastachán Breise seo ach comhlíonadh geallúint a thug an tAire dhúinn anseo i mí na Bealtaine seo caite. Is maith an rud gur chuir sé an Meastachán os comhair na Dála mar mura ndhéanfadh sé amhlaidh, bheadh ar na feirmeoirí glacadh le hairgead níos lú ar a gcuid bainne, an bainne a chuireann siad go dtí na tithe uachtair. Ní chiallaíonn an Meastachán Breise seo go bhfuigheadh na feirmeoirí aon bhreis airgid, rud a thuig cuid mhaith acu a bheadh le fáil acu ón uair seo bliain ó shoin. Ní chloisimíd aon rí-rá, aon chaint ná aon cipidiríl in aon chor anois ó na daoine a bhí ag caint go hárd-ghlórach nuair cuireadh an praghas bainne i bhfeidhm i dtosach na bliana 1948. Dúrathas an uair sin nár leor é, go raibh sé suarach agus nár airgead ceart é ar an mbainne a bhí á chur go dtí na tithe uachtair, ach ní chloisimíd focal anois ó na daoine céanna a bhí ag labhairt agus ar béicigh an uair sin, agus níor tháinig aon árdú ón lá sin amach ar airgead an bhainne atá le fáil ag na feirmeoirí atá ag dul go dtí na tithe uachtair. An t-airgead atá le fáil acu sé rialtais Fianna Fáil a chur ar fáil dóibh é, agus ní bhfuaireadar pingin, leith-phinginn ná feoirling sa bhreis ó shoin. Tháinig breis agus breis mhaith ar an méid bainne atá ag dul go dtí na tithe uachtair, le bliain anuas go mór-mhór. Tá níos mó ná cúis amháin leis sin, ach an rud is mó ba chúis leis, dar liomsa, aimsear an-bhreá na bliana seo caite. Blian mhaith don bhainne ab ea í. Tá sé sin fíor agus mara gcreideann an tAire é nó mara dtuigeann an tAire é, tuigeann na feirmeoirí é agus tuigeann siad go maith é.

Bhí an tAire ag cainnt tráthnóna mar gheall ar abhair eile a d'fhéadfaí a dhéanamh as an mbainne a tugtar go dtí na tithe uachtair seachas an t-im. Ba mhaith linn breis eolais d'fháil ar an taobh sin den scéal. Cad é an t-abhar eile agus cé mhéid bainne sa bhreis is dóigh leis is féidir a úsáid sa tslí sin? Ba mhór an ní é dá bhféadfaí an bainne a húsáidtear faoi láthair le im a dhéanamh a úsáid feasta i slite eile má tá slite eile ar fáil agus dá mbeadh airgead chomh mhaith nó níos fearr le fáil ag na feirmeoirí. Tá slí amháin ann, sé sin, dá ndéantaí iarracht ar an bpobal a mhealladh le níos mó bainne a ól ná mar a hóltar faoi láthair. Tháinig breis an-mhór le blianta anuas ar an méid bainne a hóltar sa tír seo ach dá mhéid an bhreis ní leor é fós. Is dócha go bhféadfaí an pobal a mhealladh chun níos mó bainne a ól agus ansin bheadh laghdú ar an méid bainne a cuirtear go dtí na tithe uachtair agus ar an méid ime a bheadh le spáráil. Tá áiteacha ar fud na tíre, bailte beaga go mór-mhór, i láthair na huaire, a bhfuil bainne anghann; is deacair do na daoine bainne a fháil. Baineann sé sin le rialacha atá curtha i bhfeidhm ag an Aire Sláinte. Is rialacha maithe iad ach níl na feirmeoirí sásta glacadh leo agus tá siad ag éirí as bainne a dhíol mar a bhíodh siad. Ní rabhas anseo nuair a thosnaigh an tAire ag caint; chuir cuairteoir isteach orm ach bhí fonn orm bheith anseo. Ba mhaith liom na figiúirí a fháil faoi an méid ime a rinneadh anuraidh agus ins na blianta roimhe sin ionas go bhféadfaimís na figiúirí a chur i gcomparáid. Nuair atá an méid san ime ann cén fáth nach bhféadfaí deire a chur le ciondáil? Tá daoine ann atá sásta leis na hocht n-unsa atá le fáil, ach tá tuilleadh ann agus ba mhaith leo breis agus sílim nach bhfuil aon chúis mhaith, nuair atá an méid sin ime le sparáil, gan trial a bhaint as deire a chur le ciondáil agus leigint dár muintir fhéin é ithe i dtosach sul a gcuimhneoimís ar é a dhíol.

Mr. Allen

The Minister in asking the Dáil for this Supplementary Estimate was very sparing in the amount of information he gave the Dáil. We would have liked to hear from the Minister the amount of creamery butter being exported at the present time and the amount exported during the past year.

Mr. Dillon

None at all. Pioc.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Fiú amháin punt?

Mr. Dillon

Pioc.

Mr. Allen

The estimate provides for an export subsidy.

Mr. Dillon

You are rambling, boy.

Mr. Allen

I will read it and prove I am not rambling.

Mr. Dillon

Tá tú "kip o' the reeling".

Mr. Allen

"Additional sum required for the payment of subsidies on production and exports of dairy produce." I am not rambling. It is possible if they had an export surplus to pay a subsidy out of this fund.

Mr. Dillon

Not since Fianna Fáil left office.

Mr. Allen

The Minister might also have told the Dáil how the present or the past year's production compares with the last normal year pre-war, say, 1938 or 1939. Is the production of creamery butter equal to that? It is not. That would have been valuable information and would have given the Dáil a fair idea of the trend of agricultural development in the matter of butter.

Mr. Dillon

It is my modesty forbade me to mention it.

Mr. Allen

The Minister's modesty is proverbial in the country. The Minister might have adverted to the fact that last year and the previous year a fairly substantial amount of non-creamery butter was exported. The producers of non-creamery butter are citizens of the State who are trying to eke out an existence the same as any other group of farmers. They are ordinary decent farmers who have no other means of processing their milk except by making it into farmers' butter. The Minister deliberately refused to give them any assistance whatever during the past two years to market their butter and get an economic price for it. I agree that if the consumers of butter in this country are to get it under the cost of production the Minister has no option but to provide a subsidy. The subsidy is not to export butter because the farmers' butter which was exported received no subsidy and its producers were forced to export it at an uneconomic price and well the Minister knows it. They had no option but to find a market abroad at an uneconomic price. It had to go without a subsidy and for that reason the Dáil should be slow to act unless the Minister gives them an undertaking in the present production year in the matter of farmers' butter. Farmers who are forced by circumstances over which they have no control to manufacture home-made butter should be given an economic price for their produce just as the manufacturers of creamery butter or those who are in a position to supply their milk to the creameries. During his last year in office, the Minister's predecessor provided a subsidy out of State funds to enable the producers of home-made butter to get a reasonable and economic price for it. The present Minister for Agriculture has consistently refused to aid that particular type of farmer in any way, while at the same time he is aiding——

Mr. Dillon

That is not true.

Mr. Allen

There is almost £500,000 here of a subsidy for the consumers of creamery butter, but there is not a penny being paid to enable the producers of home-made butter to get an economic price for their butter.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy will be astonished.

Mr. Allen

We are now almost on the eve of the summer production of home-made butter, and in all seriousness I would press on the Minister to reconsider his attitude in this matter. I suggest to him that he should make provision in his Estimate for whatever type of organisation his Department can devise to meet the needs of those who are engaged in the production of home-made butter. There is a considerable amount of butter being made in the homes of our farmers. A market has to be found for quite an amount of it. It should not be beyond the wit of man, the ingenuity of the Minister or the planning of his advisers, to find some way of giving an economic price, so as to meet the costs of production, to the people engaged in the production of home-made butter.

I hope we shall also be able to get from the Minister comparable figures as to the number of gallons of milk that were received in the creameries in the year 1949 and the last normal year pre-war. As we are now about to enter on the penitential season, I trust the Minister will examine his conscience carefully to see whether or not he has been just to all sections of the community. I have no doubt that if he does he will see the light and provide some means of giving those in the production of home-made butter an economic price for it during the coming production year.

Mr. Fagan

Having listened to Deputy Allen, I want to say that I come from a county where it is nearly all farmers' butter we have. Heretofore, it was supposed to be subsidised, but the farmers did not get the subsidy. If we brought 1 lb. of butter into Mullingar market and got 3/- for it we were summoned. The Minister has taken off the subsidy. We welcome that. We do not want any subsidy for our butter. We are quite satisfied as we are. I am beginning to think that the southern and other dairy farmers are getting too much in the way of subsidies.

I was speaking to a Limerick farmer in the Dublin market last week. He told me that he has 20 cows, and that last year his receipts in respect of the milk of each cow were £51. If we in the Midlands could get bullocks or calves that would pay us £21 for a season we would soon be millionaires. We are not subsidised, but we are subsidising other people. If we have any butter to sell we can take it to Mullingar market and get a price for it. No decent farmer will have much butter to sell. He will eat it or else he will use the milk for feeding calves. I say to those so-called farmers: "Go and feed calves with the milk and have a good thriving industry". We want no subsidy in the Midlands for our butter. I have told you of the Limerick farmer who is getting £51 for the milk of each of his 20 cows. He also told me he got £9 a head for dropped calves a week old. We would have to feed a beast for three or four years before we would get £60 for it.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Allen excites my admiration. He has a brazenness of face of Burmese brilliancy which I have never seen in any other living man. Deputy Allen and his friends in Wexford closed down a co-operative creamery that was catering for the dairy farmers in the southern half of County Wexford. They did that with shameless irresponsibility, utterly indifferent to the interests of the small farmers in that area, who were informed one fine morning that the creamery society could make more money out of retail and wholesale distribution, and that they did not want to be bothered any more with farmers coming with cans of milk. Now that is one of the wealthiest co-operative societies in Ireland. It is controlled and directed by supporters of Deputy Allen and Deputy Dr. Ryan.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Is that the creamery that was knocked by the Germans?

Mr. Dillon

It was a magnificent premises. It was one of those creameries that was injured by a German bomb, for which the society collected from the State a full 100 per cent. compensation, but never a wheel rolled, never a churn turned and never a gallon of milk was taken into that creamery again, because the society could make more money running a store.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order. I should like to have a ruling from the Chair as to whether the Minister for Agriculture is entitled to libel a trading society that is not represented in this House and to continue to libel it without there being á scintilla of truth in the libel.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has no authority on that matter and does not know the circumstances.

Mr. Dillon

I am happy to be able to tell Deputy Allen.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

On a point of order. Is the Minister for Agriculture entitled to drag in the red herring in a discussion on a Supplementary Estimate that is before the House?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am waiting for the Minister to establish the relevancy of what he is saying at the moment.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy's herring is neither red nor blue, but it is very odoriferous. Deputy Allen says ample provision should be made in this Vote to subsidise the sale of farmers' butter, because the farmers in the area with which he is acquainted are bereft of any other method of disposing their milk. I say that he has a face of Burmese brass to mention that fact, inasmuch as his friends in County Wexford are responsible for leaving them without the means. Now I am happy to tell him that his friends in County Wexford, having abdicated the obligations they undertook, fortunately it is within my power to come in and do for the people of South Wexford what Deputy Allen's friends are too proud to do. A survey of County Wexford has been proceeding for the last few weeks with a view to establishing a system of co-operative creameries for the convenience of the dairy farmers of County Wexford who have been bereft of that convenience since Deputy Allen's friends closed down the co-operative creameries which used to function in that county.

Mr. Allen

You are a stranger to the truth.

Mr. Dillon

I wish Deputy Allen's friends well of their profits and ample income, but I imagine that the average small farmers of County Wexford will be more grateful to the organisation which provides them with an economic outlet for their milk than to the plutocrats who grew rich on the little men and are now too proud to serve them.

Mr. Allen

A wonderful Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Allen is apprehensive about the mountains of butter that have been exported during the last 12 months. Deputy Allen has access to the printed records and the trade returns in the Library of Leinste: House. Is he too lazy to go down and read them?

Mr. Allen

I have them here.

Mr. Dillon

He professes solicitude for the farmers of this country and for the taxpayer lest exports of creamery butter should be financed in the course of this financial year. Has he studied the trade returns? I know he can read.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Even though he was not educated in a high-class college.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think the Deputy will thank his college for that.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

It is an insulting remark and should not be made about a Deputy. It is not the first time.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy and I went to school close together. Deputy Ó Briain forgets that.

Mr. Allen

The Minister was thrown into the horse pond by his colleagues in the school.

Mr. Dillon

There are no exports of butter to trouble the Deputy's mind. I agree with the Deputy, as I do with Deputy Corry, that it would ill become us to pay strangers a heavy annual charge to eat our butter. I would, however, remind Deputy Allen, when he expresses these horrified apprehensions, that there was a time in this country when we paid strangers to eat our butter. Does the Deputy remember the halcyon days of the Creamery Stabilisation Act when we provided whatever subsidy the British demanded to enable them to eat Irish butter at 8d. per lb. while our people were required to pay from 1/6 to 2/- in order to provide the subsidy wherewith to persuade the British to eat our butter for a third of the cost of production?

Mr. Allen

You paid £72,500 out of the Stabilisation Fund this year under that Act.

Mr. Dillon

How short the Deputy's memory has become about those happy days.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

It was a production subsidy paid to the producer.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Blowick)

Paying foreigners at the expense of our own customers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is entitled to speak without interruption.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Cogan is right about farmers' butter and my views upon it up to a point; I do not agree with him that farmers' butter is better than creamery butter, but I know it is just as good. The fact, however, that a thing is intrinsically good does not make it marketable. The quality of farmers' butter can be every bit as good as the best creamery butter, and there are hundreds of people in this country who prefer its flavour and are prepard to pay a premium over the creamery butter price to get well-made farmers' butter, but the bulk of the market does not share that view. That is no reflection on farmers' butter.

When I was a child the popular sweetmeats for children were striped rock and peggy's leg which are just as good to-day as they were 40 years ago. But, if you ask the average child of to-day to content himself with striped rock and peggy's leg he will tell you he wants jujubes and fruit capsules. There is no use adorning your window with striped rock and peggy's leg if the infant customers demand fruit capsules and jujubes because they will not attract anyone but the itinerant fly. The striped rock and peggy's leg are every bit as good and perhaps better than the jujubes, but you cannot force people who are free to buy what they please to buy what you want to sell them and only fools try. Far from encouraging countrywomen in this country to produce good farmers' butter, which, in the circumstances in which we are, is to scatter pearls before swine, I prefer to put within their reach facilities to convert their milk into creamery butter, which is not one bit better, but for which a relatively ready market can be found. Is that a sound policy or is it not? I think it is.

In opening, I gave figures for milk production and a very simple mathematical operation by Deputy Allen could have reduced that to butter. But, being as I am a paid servant of the people, I recognise that, if a Deputy is too lazy to do a modest sum, he has the right to command me to have it done on his behalf. I am not sure of the year for which the Deputy desires to have the figures of butter production communicated to him. In 1935-36 the production was 828,000 cwts.; 1937-38, 755,000 cwts.; 1940-41, 658,000 cwts.; 1944-45, 576,000 cwts.; 1947-48, 523,000 cwts.; and 1948-49, 581,000 cwts. For 1949-50, that is up to the 1st of next April, which is the milk year, we estimate that the total production will be 685,000 cwts. If the comparison of January of this year with the January of 1949 is any guide—I am bound to warn the House that it is by no means a reliable guide—but if it should prove this year to be a true indicator of what we may expect in the year from April next, the production of butter could well be from 710,000 to 720,000 cwts. between 1st April, 1950, and 31st March, 1951.

Deputy Ó Briain was scandalised about the short memory of those who made such a loud hullabaloo and kip-o'-the-reel when the Fianna Fáil Government announced the 1/2 price, and marvelled that they did not repeat their outcry now Deputy Ó Briain has overlooked a very relevant factor. In 1947—I take the figures of an average creamery in the South of Ireland—the average milk yield of the cows supplying milk to that creamery, measured by the delivery of milk per cow, was 376 gallons; the average yield for 1948 was 443 gallons; the average yield for 1949 to date has been 505 gallons. The cow that was earning £26 when Deputy Ó Briain was listening to the kip-o'-the-reel is earning £32 11s. 11d. now. Is there not a strange connection between lime and phosphates and the yield of a cow? Is it heretical to venture the opinion that some of these cows may have had their milk productivity in some measure influenced by the quality of the grass, or will lightning from heaven strike down the Minister for Agriculture when he dares to mention grass in these hallowed surroundings?

Mr. Allen

Why not give another year besides 1947?

Mr. Dillon

That was the year that Deputy Ó Briain's heart was yearning back to. He talked of the kip-o'-the-reel when the price was 1/2. Prior to that the price was 10d. Are we to sing the praises of the happy days when the ruling price for milk was 10d. a gallon? I took the year that I thought would make Deputy Ó Briain blush least.

Mr. Allen

It was 2½d. when your colleagues were in office.

Mr. Dillon

The amnesia of Fianna Fáil Deputies fascinates me—the way they leap lightly over long periods of years. Might I direct the attention of Deputy Ó Briain, absent though he is, to the fact that one of the reasons why farmers in Ireland are so much better off now than in 1947, and so much more content, is that in 1947 we grew a variety of grass in this country which was entitled, I think, to the description of a botanical monstrosity. It was a variety of grass of which a cow could eat in abundance and die of starvation as she chewed the cud. Scientists came from afar to see this extraordinary product. It is getting quite rare in the country now. I thought of railing off a piece as a kind of memorial. I would not let Fianna Fáil set their foot on it, but it would be sacred to their memory, year after year producing this green monstrosity. They had a word for it in Irish, you know—they called it the féar gorta. In those days I think it was believed that if you walked across it you died of the thirst. However, this was the Féar Fianna Fáil; the more you ate of it the hungrier you got, and if you kept at it long enough you died of starvation. Now, perhaps, Deputy Ó Briain understands the lack of kip-o'-the-reel to-day which entertained him so vastly in the days of the féar gorta of Fianna Fáil.

People ought to drink more milk, says Deputy Ó Briain. I agree with him. I am just going to launch a "drink more milk" campaign. Does Deputy Ó Briain not know why it was impossible to embark on a "drink more milk" campaign to date? The fact is there was not any milk to drink. The cows on the exiguous diet I have described were unable to supply the milk that people would drink without any exhortation at all. Now I have to inform the House that the milk supply in areas where liquid milk is for sale is beginning to present a problem, not one, very happily, beyond our power to master and turn to good purpose, because I hope to be able to increase the production of milk in urban centres by from 20 to 50 per cent. and that should go a long way to absorb the growing supply which is forthcoming from cows that have had their diet changed.

I think Deputy Ó Briain speaks of a real problem when he dwells on the fact that in some country towns, where there appears to be abundant milk for the creameries and even for direction to the adjoining cities, it is almost impossible to get supplies of liquid milk for sale. I am afraid the fact is this, that the standards that the person who produces milk for human consumption is required to maintain in his byre are so high that many farmers feel that the cost of equipping themselves in order to maintain these standards makes it impossible to sell liquid milk at the controlled price that obtains in rural towns. I know of no solution for that dilemma so long as price control of liquid milk is retained in rural towns.

I am not prepared to say that people living in rural towns should have made available to them liquid milk which is produced under any condition—I do not think any Deputy woud wish me to do that—yet it is not reasonable to insist on farmers selling milk when they have been required to incur capital cost which they are unable to recoup out of the retail selling price permitted to them.

Just imagine Deputy Corry bawling like the Bull of Bashan with apprehension lest the export of butter to John Bull would be subsidised. Does he think that we are all fools? Does he think that we do not remember him roaring like the Bull of Bashan for an ever-increasing subsidy on our butter exports to John Bull 15 years ago? The higher the subsidy the more sprightly he danced his jig. Deputy Corry deludes himself that our people can be fooled eternally. I think he received a lesson recently from the old hen. If he wants to take a whirl on the butter subsidy, he will simply succeed in making the people of Cork laugh even louder than they are laughing now.

I am very much obliged to the Dáil for being good enough to facilitate the passage of this Estimate. I assure Deputies that their forbearance in this matter will prove of great convenience to the smaller creameries which might otherwise experience unnecessary difficulties.

Question put and agreed to.