Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Mar 1950

Vol. 119 No. 7

Minerals Company (Amendment) Bill, 1950—Second Stage.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Morrissey)

I move that this Bill be now read a Second Time. It has two main purposes, one the making of further advances to Mianraí, Teoranta, for work on the Slievardagh coalfield, and secondly, to provide for the payment of money to the company to enable them to purchase land and mineral rights in an area where an approved scheme of minerals exploration is being carried out at present at the expense of the State. Deputies are aware, of course, that the company is at present financed to a maximum of £50,000 under the existing legislation, and that during the war they were producing coal at Ballynunty. The coal was of rather inferior quality. In February, 1948, the company decided to cease production at Ballynunty. They then decided to open up at a place called Copper, near Ballingarry. They felt that, in that new area beside the village of Ballingarry, there were better prospects, and they carried out boring operations, which were designed to test the extent and quality of the coal in that part of the coalfield. They obtained expert advice, and after certain local inspections and borings, they were satisfied that there were pretty good prospects in that particular area. It was estimated that the cost of bringing the mine there at Ballingarry to full production of 100 tons of anthracite a day would be about £50,000. We were advised that the proposition represented a fair mining risk.

The Government considered the proposal, and they decided to authorise the company to proceed with the opening of the new mine. When work commenced on the 1st September, 1948, about £6,000 had been advanced to the company for expenditure in cleaning up the old workings at Ballynunty, leaving a balance of £44,000 available under the Act of 1947, for the new operations. It was estimated by the company that, through the use of plant from the old workings, the balance of £44,000 would suffice for the workings at the new area. They also estimated that coal production from the new mine should commence in July, 1949, and that a production of 250 tons a week should be reached before the end of 1949. Unfortunately these expectations were not realised. If they had been the company would have had revenue from the sale of coal by the end of 1949, to supplement the amount available under the statute.

The plan of operations at Ballingarry was to drive two tunnels, a distance of about 250 yards through rock to reach the coal seam, but unfortunately the company, in driving these tunnels, encountered extremely difficult and unfavourable conditions underground. It will be appreciated that in mining operations such as this it is difficult, if not impossible to foresee what the underground conditions are likely to be. In any case the unexpected difficulties which were encountered not only delayed the company in reaching the coal seam until September, 1949, but substantially increased the cost of the work. Consequently, the company informed me that the balance of the moneys available under the Act of 1947 would not be sufficient to enable them to bring the mine at Ballingarry to the point when they anticipated it would be profit-earning. They have estimated that they will require the limit on advances laid down by that Act to be extended by a further £38,000 to enable them to meet the cost of work at the new mine until the 1st September, 1951, by which date they expect the mine will be self-supporting. Part of this additional sum will be used to purchase capital equipment for the mine, including a coal-washing plant, the use of which would render more readily saleable the coal raised from the mine.

The directors of the company have assured me that the expenditure of this further sum of £38,000 will suffice to bring the Ballingarry mine to the stage when it will be profit-earning. Production of coal has commenced, but it will take the company about another 18 months to bring the mine to the stage of full production when the output will be about 100 tons of anthracite a day. The House will appreciate that until production on this scale has been reached and maintained over a period, it is difficult to say with certainty whether receipts from sales will exceed the over-all cost of production so as to leave a margin of profit. The quality of the coal, prevailing wage rates, the cost of raw materials, and the general supply position of anthracite are, of course, the main factors which will affect production costs and selling prices when the mine is in full production.

These factors cannot be determined precisely at present, and, in the circumstances, I do not think that the House would expect me to give an assurance, at this stage, that the expenditure of this further sum of £38,000 will enable the company to put the Ballingarry mine on a profit-earning basis which would secure repayment of the advances made from the Exchequer. It should not be assumed from my reluctance to give such an assurance that I am in any way pessimistic. I want to stress the fact that in this, as in all mining undertakings, there is a large element of risk, and to point out that if there was a guarantee, or even a reasonable expectation, that profits could be earned by mining coal at Slievardagh, private enterprise would probably undertake the risk themselves.

The company have already achieved an output of 100 tons a week. They have spent so far about £44,000 on the work. There are now no funds left, under the Act of 1947, which could be advanced to the company to allow them to continue the work and they require a further £38,000 to bring the mine to the stage of full production. I think that it is only reasonable to allow the company to complete the job it was given to do. The only alternative to providing additional funds would be to close down the mine. I was not prepared to recommend that course to the Government, and therefore I am bringing in this Bill. There are at present about 85 men employed at Ballingarry, and it is anticipated that the company will employ from 220 to 250 men when the mine is in full production.

I am advised that at present money may not be paid to the company under the Minerals Company Act, 1947, for the purchase of land and mineral rights. Section 3 of this Bill is designed to amend sub-section (2) of Section 5 of the Act of 1947 to permit of the payment of money to the company for this purpose. This amendment is necessary in order that the company may be enabled to purchase mineral rights, etc., in the areas where substantial expenditure is being incurred on exploratory work, and it is desirable that the company should have secure title in order that any benefits resulting from the exploratory work embarked upon at State expense should accrue to the State.

The Bill covers these two points, the main point being to extend the provision of £50,000 to a sum of £88,000 the £38,000 extra being required to enable the mine at Ballingarry to be brought into full production. As I say, I expect that will be reached in about 18 months' time.

Mr. Lemass

It is very disappointing to learn that the company has not been able to bring the Slievardagh colliery to a profit-earning stage with the expenditure of the £50,000 capital provided for it under the 1947 Act. The difference between the amount considered necessary then to develop the mine at Copper and bring it into full production and the amount now estimated can hardly be satisfactorily explained merely upon the basis of the delay in starting operations there. Either the original estimate was wrong, and it was the company's own estimate, or else their operating costs have been higher than was calculated in 1947. The delay in starting work was, no doubt, a contributing cause of the unsatisfactory situation.

I gather from what the Minister has now said that some £6,000 of the £50,000 was, in fact, used in cleaning-up operations, presumably mainly intended to keep the staff employed during the period before the work at Copper began.

Mr. Morrissey

That is not so. It was in cleaning up and disposing of a residue of coal and removing a lot of machinery from the Ballynunty to the new mine at Ballingarry.

Mr. Lemass

Apart from expressing disappointment that the capital cost of this development is substantially higher than was anticipated and at the rather pessimistic view of the Minister as to the likelihood of the company's getting to the profitable working stage before 1951, if then, we have no objection to the new provisions of this Bill. I think, however, that the Dáil should have from the Minister some more definite indication of his attitude to this enterprise. That there exist at Slievardagh workable deposits of coal appears to have been established by a number of expert investigations. Away back in 1934, when the Slievardagh coal deposits were not being worked at all, a firm of mining engineers from Great Britain were employed by the Government to investigate and report on them. The intention, then, however, was to complete the investigation and to make the results of it available to any private interests which might be concerned with the possibilities of investment there. It was not considered desirable that the State should itself engage in coal-mining activities.

Deputies who study the Statute Book will know that I have not got any strong theoretical objection to State enterprise in fields where it is necessary to secure useful development and where private enterprise is not likely to be either interested or successful. But that is not the position as far as coal mining is concerned. The State is engaged in coal mining as one of the smallest operators in an industry in which there are substantial private interests and, normally, that would be regarded as an undesirable situation. During the period in which this company has been in existence there has been, for one reason or another, a scarcity of coal and, consequently, little element of competition between the coal-producing concerns. If, however, that situation changed, if circumstances should arise which would bring the Irish coal-mining companies into competition for a restricted market, then clearly the private concerns which are operating without Government subsidy would feel they had a grievance if they lost their market to a company which was backed by the State and had available to it the unlimited capital resources which the State can provide.

Unfortunately, the hopes which we entertained in 1934, 1935 and 1936, when the investigations at Slievardagh were proceeding, were not realised. It is true that the expert mining concern, which carried out the investigation, reported that there was available in the Slievardagh area a reserve of some 5,000,000 tons of good quality coal capable of commercial development. Their report, together with the information which they furnished concerning the deposit and their recommendations for its development, was made available in the geological survey section of the Department of Industry and Commerce to any private interests that might be attracted by it. However, no such private interest materialised and no development took place at Slievardagh until after the war began. It was in 1941 that the first Slievardagh coal-mining company was established by an Act of the Dáil and it was regarded as an emergency measure. The coal scarcity, which was very acute all during the war, had begun in 1941 and it was considered desirable then to utilise every possibility of increasing home production. The most immediate possibility was at Slievardagh where there was this known deposit of good quality anthracite coal unworked.

The State, therefore, went into this coal-mining business as an emergency measure and the development of the coal measures at Slievardagh was directed with the object of producing the maximum output of coal in the shortest possible period of time. I explained to the Dáil at that time, and subsequently, that if a private commercial concern undertook the development of these deposits in the manner which would be dictated by good mining practice they would proceed, as recommended by the expert firm which had investigated the area, according to a plan which would not yield any coal for some two years or so after operations commenced. I took on myself the responsibility of telling the Slievardagh coal-mining company that their task during the war was to get as much coal as possible and told them they could forget about long-term development, even though it was recognised that the method they would use in maximising coal output in the shortest period of time might to some extent militate against the successful commercial development of the deposit on a long-term basis.

The workings at Ballynunty and Lickfin were begun during the war and, if my recollection is correct, some 60,000 or 70,000 tons of coal in all were produced and marketed as a result of the operations there. When the war was over the desire of the Government then was to get out of the coal-mining business as quickly as they had got into it, because it was assumed that normal conditions would reappear and we disliked a situation in which the State was engaged in any commercial enterprise in competition with private interests. We were the more concerned to get out of the coal-mining business because we then contemplated the State undertaking exploratory work in relation to other minerals on a much larger scale than had been attempted previously. The colliery at Slievardagh was, therefore, advertised for sale and every effort was made to attract private firms to consider the possibility of acquiring it. However, no acceptable offer was received for the colliery and in 1947 it had to be decided whether the emergency workings there should be terminated or whether the State should continue operating the collieries for a further period. The decision was to continue and the decision to continue was based upon the report of the company directors that, with a further investment of £50,000, they could close up these emergency workings and open this new shaft at Copper, which further expert investigations had indicated was likely to be productive of good coal, capable of being mined and sold at a profit. The report from the company directors decided the Government to provide the £50,000 and, in providing it, it was made clear that the idea was to put the colliery on to a profit-making basis in the hope that at that stage it would be possible to hand it over, on terms satisfactory to the State, to some private firm which would then continue it in operation.

I think the fact that the seam at Copper has not yet been fully developed and that it is not yet possible for the Minister to say definitely that profitable operation there is possible makes it incumbent on us to continue with the 1947 plan, even though it now means that a further £38,000 has to be provided. The amount of money already invested by the State in Slievardagh is not of very great significance. A large part of the amount spent there during the war must be classed as emergency expenditure. I answered criticism of the cost of production by Mianraí, Teoranta, of coal, phosphate rock and pyrites during the war by pointing out that it was almost impossible to calculate what these essential supplies meant to us during that period and explained that if, in fact, in 1947, we allowed Slievardagh to charge for the coal it was then producing the price which we were paying to get similar coal from abroad, it would not have shown a loss at all.

In 1947 we wiped out the losses arising from wartime operations and the company started off in that year with a capital liability to the State no greater than the ascertained value of its assets. The only provision in the 1947 Act for further capital advances to the company was the £50,000 for the Slievardagh development, the £50,000 which has now become £88,000. I presume that the Minister is satisfied that the company is working at Slievardagh in the best possible manner; that it has in view the necessity of getting to a stage of profit-earning as early as possible; that they understand it is not practicable for the State to contemplate the continuous investment of money in that enterprise unless a stage can be clearly visualised where the revenue from the sale of coal will equal the cost of mining it.

It has always been difficult for me to understand what has delayed us getting to that stage. I again remind the Dáil that there is, according to expert opinion, a substantial reserve of coal there, capable of commercial operation. It is true that the coal proved to be unusually friable—that is to say, that with the methods of working employed during the war it was difficult to extract it in lumps and a large proportion came out as slack. That, however, should not be an insuperable difficulty. Coal-mining technique has been developed throughout the world to meet all kinds of mining conditions and, while during the war the company had to work with make-shift methods and with a large staff of mainly unskilled workers, that stage has now been passed. The workers have now acquired skill and there should be no difficulty in getting the most suitable equipment for working the type of coal available there.

Mr. Morrissey

Does the Deputy assert that the percentage of slack is entirely due to the method of processing?

Mr. Lemass

So I understood.

Mr. Morrissey

It is not.

Mr. Lemass

That friability was peculiar to one portion of the seam, I understand. I think the prospects held out for the Copper mine were quite good. I assume from what the Minister has said that nothing has happened during the course of the operations last year to discredit the optimism with which the company undertook its development.

We are agreeable to the provision of the additional capital but we should like to feel that the concern is fully conscious of the fact that there is a limit to the amount that can be provided; that there is special obligation on it to get to profitable working as quickly as possible and that all its officers and directors are exerting themselves energetically to that end. It is necessary to keep emphasising that any mining operation is a gamble. Nobody can know with confidence what success a mining enterprise may achieve. Because it is a gamble, the profits that come from successful working are usually higher than those earned in normal industry. But they are probably quite small in relation to the total amount invested in all mining enterprises, successful and otherwise. When a private citizen goes into a mining operation he estimates the capital risk involved. He provides that amount of money and he goes ahead. If he cannot get a profit when the total estimated expenditure has occurred he stops because his money is gone. It is that limitation upon private enterprise that often involves it in a loss that might have been avoided if larger capital resources had been available. In the case of the State, however, the risk is the other way around. There is no limit to the amount of capital the State can provide. When a mining enterprise is undertaken and proves to be more costly than was at first anticipated, there will always be an irresistible argument in favour of putting more and more money into it in the hope that, as a result, the total amount invested will be recovered. That knowledge that there is no necessary limit to the amount of money that may be invested by the State, operating amongst the directors and executives of the concern, has an enervating effect unless it is counterbalanced by pressure from the Government to get speedy results.

To sum up the position, therefore, there is, so far as expert opinion can establish it, a substantial reserve of good quality coal at Slievardagh. Private enterprise has not been attracted to its development, presumably because there are at Slievardagh difficulties of operation that do not exist elsewhere. The State undertook its development as an emergency measure during the war and because of the war. They tried to get out of it when the war was over but they failed to get out of it because the effects of war-time working did not appear to suggest that private enterprise could engage in it there profitably and perhaps for some other reasons. We therefore decided to put more money into it in another effort to bring it to a stage where it could be profitably worked. That amount of money has not proved enough. We have now to provide a substantial additional sum. The Minister was cautious in forecasting that that additional sum would be adequate to bring the concern to a state of profitable working. We hope it will. We are prepared to take the risk in approving of expenditure but we want to feel assured that the company have a keen appreciation of their obligations to the State in the matter— particularly the obligations to work energetically to get to the profit-earning stage quickly and that it is carrying out these operations with competent technical assistance which will minimise the prospects of loss.

Another section of this Bill deals with the main activities of Mianraí Teoranta. That company was formed by the amalgamation of the original Slievardagh Coalmines Company and the Minerals Exploration Company which was before the war engaged in the production of pyrites and phosphate rock. They were amalgamated for reasons of economy and efficiency. However, when the change was made in 1947 it was decided that Mianraí Teoranta would have no other commercial responsibility at all. The development of Slievardagh was left with it for the purpose of convenience but it was always contemplated that Mianraí Teoranta would concern itself solely with mineral development work and endeavour to locate and develop mineral resources to the point at which they could be leased to private concerns on terms which would recover to the State the amount invested in the exploration and development work. A plan for mineral development was prepared and the cost of that plan was estimated. It was hoped to complete it in a fixed period of years and, working at a uniform rate of development, its cost was reckoned to be £85,000 a year. The legislation, therefore, provided for non-repayable advances to Mianraí Teoranta of £85,000 a year to complete that mineral exploration and development plan. That mineral development plan was one of the first things that came under the economy axe of the Minister for Finance when economy was the order of the day and the £85,000 was not provided for the work of the company in 1948. Later in that year, for whatever reason it does not matter, the Minister for Industry and Commerce intimated that the Government had reviewed that position and was investigating the desirability of proceeding with a much more limited plan confined to the area of Avoca, County Wicklow.

Avoca, County Wicklow, is a locality in which mineral operations have proceeded with varying fortunes in different periods of history and where it seemed likely that the more highly developed technique of mineral extraction now available would make economic operations which, with the methods of older times, had proved to be uneconomic and where experts had reported that there likely were substantial reserves of ore which the old-time workers had not reached. In 1949 it was intimated that a decision had been taken upon the future activities of Mianraí Teoranta—that they were to be confined in their work to the Avoca area and that a plan for the exploration and development of Avoca had been prepared which would involve a total expenditure, over whatever period of time operations were continued, of £120,000.

There was a further delay in starting that work, due, it was stated, to the difficulties of obtaining equipment and so forth, but presumably the work is on. I take it, therefore, that any problem that has arisen, necessitating an amendment of the legislation in relation to the acquisition of land or mining rights, exists at Avoca and that the decision taken by the Government to confine the activities of the company to Avoca still holds and that it has no authority or funds to undertake mineral exploration work anywhere else. We know that a Swedish company, acting under the authority of the Department of Industry and Commerce, is engaged in exploration work in the gypsum area of Monaghan, but it was never contemplated that Mianraí Teoranta would concern themselves there. That was the position in 1947 and I understand it is the position still.

I do not know if we are in order on this Bill, only one small section of which amends the 1947 Act concerning the activities of Mianraí Teoranta in relation to exploration, in discussing the limitations which have been put on its scope and in urging upon the Minister the desirability of giving further consideration to that decision.

An Ceann Comhairle

Could we not discuss that matter on the Estimate for the Department?

Mr. Lemass

The Chair knows that discussions on Estimates are most unsatisfactory, particularly discussions on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce, which has such a multiplicity of activities, none of which can be discussed adequately. I would urge that the Minister should bring before his colleagues in the Government the matter of extending the activities of the company into other fields. It has often been represented as the viewpoint of Deputies on this side of the House that we urged mineral exploration mainly with the idea of laying the ghost of our mineral wealth. It is true that there are exaggerated views held by some people as to the mineral resources of this country and so long as they are held, there will be an urge to have investigations carried out. It is not true, however, that the decision to embark upon a substantial programme of development was merely due to a desire to dissipate any such illusions. There is good reason to believe that there exist in various parts of the country mineralised areas which are capable of being the foundation of successful workings.

It is true that the reports of the geological survey and other investigators of a similar character cannot be conclusive. The geological survey works on surface indications and other inconclusive methods of exploration, and can only point out to the development company the places which should get its attention. The only effective method of mineral exploration is by boring under ground and it was to do that work that the Mineral Development Company was set up. It is particularly necessary for us that some State organisation should do that work, if we are to have any mineral development. Our mineral wealth is not very great. It is not likely to attract the capital which is available for mineral development in other countries. The big risk which private enterprise undertakes in any mineral development activity is that the bulk of its capital resources will be exhausted in the preliminary exploration and development stage and that the resources employed at that stage will never be recouped. We have, therefore, always taken the line for a number of years that private enterprise should be helped in mineral development work by the State, originally through the form of grants and latterly, it was intended, through the working of Mianraí Teoranta—helped in meeting the cost of that exploration work, site preparation and development of deposits to the stage at which mining could begin.

In the years before the war, a considerable amount of mineral activity, not of a very important kind but giving not inconsiderable employment, was promoted by means of grants for site clearances and grants for the removal of overburden. It was made available through the Employment Schemes Vote. A number of slate quarries and other stone quarries were opened, most of which, though not all, survived.

Mr. Morrissey

Unfortunately not the slate quarries.

Mr. Lemass

That is true. I think that the problem which affected these quarries was not so much that deposits of slates were not found to be there but that they yielded a slate so small in size that the amount of timber to roof a house with them was very much greater and, consequently, more expensive, than with slates of normal size. Of course that shut them out completely during the war when timber was the scarcest of all building materials. Even then, in the case of some of the smaller slates there was a possibility of an export trade because, whatever objection there was to them on the ground of cost, there are many architects who think they are by far the most attractive type of roof and their durability is excellent. I mention that by way of illustration of the benefits that might accrue. In that particular case the State was not altogether concerned with the prospect of long-term development, as the result of its expenditure. If we were providing money for unemployment relief schemes, it was felt that that money could be spent as usefully in that direction as in certain other directions, and if there was a prospect of permanent employment under that long-term development for the locality, that was an added advantage. That type of expenditure is not being undertaken now. I say that Mianraí Teoranta should investigate these known mineral deposits and do that type of development work that would bring them to the stage where private enterprise might be interested. It would thus hold for the State the financial benefit of any successful exploration work which it was able to undertake.

If that job is going to be done, it will not be done within the financial limits now fixed. Avoca may be explored within these limits. It may be that there are private mineral rights in Avoca which it is desirable to acquire now so that the problem of title will not arise, if the exploration work is successful and the Department has to attract private interests to the development of the deposit. We have no objection to the Minister having that power, but I want to take advantage of the occasion on which he asked it to urge on him and the Government the reconsideration of its whole attitude to this matter of mineral development.

We were appalled by the original decision of the Minister of Finance to stop it. We were not entirely relieved by his later decision to permit it to resume on a limited scale. If there is any case in logic for continuing to work at Avoca, there is as good a case for continuing it in the other known mineralised areas throughout the country, in Cork, Tipperary and Sligo in particular.

I hope the Minister will be able to give us some indication now or on his Estimate that the Government is looking into the matter again.

Mr. C. Lehane

I must be a very ingenuous sort of individual, because I constantly find myself amazed at Deputy Lemass's capacity for surprising me, and his approach to this very short and simple measure, I must confess, did surprise me. The cautious and almost parsimonious attitude that he brought to his examination of this measure was one which I would have been, were I a reader solely of the Irish Press, inclined to associate with, say, Deputy McGilligan, the Minister for Finance. I do not think that that cautious approach, while there may be ample justification for it, is one which we in this country can afford in examining questions like this.

I was disappointed at Deputy Lemass's failure to balance the advantage of retaining at home the men who are employed at present in the Slievardagh coalfield and those who may be employed in the future against the sum proposed to be expended. I do not think that that is an attitude of mind that we can afford in this country. It amazed me to hear it coming from Deputy Lemass. I must confess I have found myself in agreement with criticisms coming sometimes from that side of the House as against undue caution on the Government's side. Deputy Lemass was the last one I would have expected to bring that attitude to bear on this measure.

I think this is the type of Bill that should be welcomed from all sides of the House. The only criticism I would make of it is that it is a very minor Bill about an undertaking engaged in in a very minor way. The criticism was made—I do not know whether one would be right in calling it a criticism —by Deputy Lemass—it was one of his obiter dicta—that this was not the type of undertaking in which he thought the State should engage.

Mr. Lemass

I did not say that. I said that coal mining in particular, where there are already a number of private firms engaged, did not require State intervention in the same way as other industries.

Mr. C. Lehane

May I reply to the Deputy's observation in this way, that on his own showing from 1934 until 1941 private enterprise failed to take advantage of the opportunity for investment and development that obtained here.

Mr. Lemass

At Slievardagh?

Mr. C. Lehane

At Slievardagh.

Mr. Lemass

Only at Slievardagh.

Mr. C. Lehane

That is the only place we are discussing at the moment.

Mr. Lemass

My point is that coal mining developed substantially during that period, although in other areas.

Mr. C. Lehane

Even on that broader plane I join issue with the Deputy. I am no believer in a slavish imitation of what is being done elsewhere, but I think there are occasions when we can learn. I think the development of our fuel resources, coal mining or otherwise, is a programme which should properly be undertaken where possible by the State rather than by private enterprise. I know that probably there are very few of us in this House who are not always ready to man the breach in defence of the sacred rights of private enterprise. Private enterprise is deserving of all the encouragement we can give, but, in so far as coal mining or any other field of industrial activity is concerned, I do not see how we in this House are compelled to place before ourselves the maxim, "No, no, the State must not interfere there; perhaps at some future date some benevolently-minded people, some well-intentioned people or commercially acute people, will come along and develop privately that particular field of industry". However, let me pass from that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy does not want a debate on nationalisation.

Mr. C. Lehane

I was dealing with the point made by another Deputy. I think Deputy Lemass's strictures in respect of the amendment of the Principal Act contained in Section 3 hardly hold water. As I understand the position—and I am open to correction on this—it was originally proposed to expend £85,000 on mineral exploration. In actual fact the present position obtaining is that £120,000 will be required.

Mr. Lemass

£85,000 for each of seven years.

Mr. C. Lehane

The position now obtaining is that £120,000 is required.

Mr. Lemass

In all, for some unknown period.

Mr. Morrissey

No, if it is then demonstrated when this has been expended that a further expenditure is desirable and necessary, whatever it may be.

Mr. C. Lehane

In so far as we can deal with decisions, there was a definite decision to spend £120,000. Whether that is spent in Avoca or Slievardagh or elsewhere is not to my mind of any great moment.

Mr. Lemass

It is a much better decision than the first. The first was to spend nothing. I hope you are not claiming credit for the change.

Mr. C. Lehane

I am not concerned with claiming credit for any of these things. I will be critical when I feel I should be critical and I will remain silent when I think I should be silent, no matter how much Deputies opposite try to misrepresent me. There is one point on which I should like the Minister to give us more information. I understand that there are 5,000,000 tons of anthracite coal being commercially worked.

Mr. Morrissey

It has been estimated at various times at anything from 4,000,000 tons to 400,000,000 tons.

Mr. C. Lehane

In Slievardagh?

Mr. Morrissey

Yes.

Mr. C. Lehane

Let us take it at the lowest. I am basing this on the potential employment figures that have been given. I am assuming that the weekly production can be doubled. Can the Minister give an assurance to the House that there will be no failure on the part of his Department to ensure that a market will be readily found for whatever coal is produced? To my mind, it is idle to talk of the development of our mineral resources and of the development of coal mining, whether in Arigna or Slievardagh, or the machine-winning of turf unless we are going to ensure that whatever is produced is going to replace imported fuels. I would be glad if the Minister could see his way to enlighten us on that when replying.

Deputy Lemass said that good mining practice was ignored in favour of a short-term development policy. That is understandable in the conditions which then obtained. I would urge the Minister that no considerations of showing results either to the public or this House should deter him from approaching this on a long-term basis. The Minister should not be any way shy about coming to this Dáil to ask for additional sums of money for development if such additional sums are, in his opinion, necessary.

I am not quite clear whether the advances that were made to this company have been made at any given rate of interest, whether it has been a commercial rate of interest or a lower rate. Certainly, money advanced for purposes of this nature should be advanced at a lower rate, because I think we are always entitled to take into consideration not only the purely book-keeping aspect of an undertaking of this nature but the human and the national aspect of it: that we are doing something which is helping to keep many of our young people at home and provide employment for them without compelling them to emigrate to obtain it.

Reference was made to the fact that the mineral exploration scheme was not merely for laying the ghost of our mineral wealth. I am not qualified to express an expert opinion on whether our mineral wealth is a ghost or not. In so far as I have an opinion, it is not. It would be good business, if that were a ghost, to investigate it thoroughly and lay it once and for all. I am quite satisfied that it is no such ghost, and that a proper exploration of our resources will show that there are substantial mineral resources here capable of being commercially developed.

A reference was also made by Deputy Lemass to which I take exception. He referred to the nature of the coal. I may be completely wrong in this, but I think we in this country have taken all our standards in these things from the other side. In other words, good coal to us is not good coal unless it is best Orrel or best Wigan. The American people have been using soft coal with a much greater degree of friability. As far as I understand, in the United States the varieties of coal mines are very numerous. I do not think it should be a criticism of the potential value of this scheme that one particular seam or any portion of the mine field contained coal of an unduly friable nature.

Mr. Lemass

This is anthracite. It does not burn as easily as all that.

Mr. C. Lehane

There is one last observation that I would like to make. I should like again to return to the cautious and parsimonious attitude with which Deputy Lemass approached this measure. I should like to make this observation—what howl there would have been from Deputy Lemass and his colleagues if this measure, or some measure like it, had not been introduced.

Mr. Lemass

Why should we be jubilant because a job that was estimated to cost £50,000 is now going to cost £88,000?

Mr. C. Lehane

The estimate was not made by the Minister.

Mr. Lemass

It was made by the same company.

Major de Valera

It is a good thing to explore and try to develop what we have, but it is neither parsimonious nor in any way discreditable to approach a problem like this on the basis of hard fact rather than ghost chasing, and also on the basis of efficiency.

Mr. Morrissey

I remember the time when that approach used to be described as sabotage.

Major de Valera

You can sabotage in one of two ways. You can sabotage by blowing up or you can sabotage by under-cutting. The important thing in a matter of this nature is to face the facts.

Mr. Morrissey

Hear! Hear!

Major de Valera

There is one thing that comes to mind in voting a sum of money to a company of this nature, and that is the need for particular care in, first of all, securing energy in the prosecution of the work, and, secondly, securing efficiency. The people in charge of such work, where they have State resources behind them, will naturally find rather more difficulty in achieving efficiency and securing speed than a private company. That seems to be something inherent in State projects, or projects which are supported by the State. I just mention this matter now in order to remind the Minister that, in voting a sum of money for this company, his responsibility does not end there. He should take an interest thereafter in seeing that the purpose for which this money is voted is vigorously and energetically prosecuted, and efficiently so.

In so far as coal development is concerned, the voting of money and the developing of a project known to the extent to which this project is known, as the Minister has said, is unobjectionable and, in fact, is commendable and for that reason, this Bill is to be welcomed. There is, however, a further side to the situation—that there is, perhaps, a certain urgency in the present situation about the development of such resources. At any rate, we do know that there is coal there. There is difficulty perhaps in certain regards. The anthracite may be difficult to extract and there may be wastage due to slack, etc. It is not only important to get the full benefit of that development at the moment, but it is also important from the point of view of the future. It is important from the point of view of the future no matter how you prophesy in regard to the future.

If there is a period of stability before us as economic circumstances are, having regard to our present sources of coal and the financial situation of England, etc., quite apart from the question of employment already referred to, it is obviously advantageous to us to develop our coal resources such as they are to a pitch where they can be economic. Even if that cannot be done, it is worth trying now from the point of view of external trade, from the point of view of making ourselves self-reliant in our economy and, to that extent, making the problem of balancing things very easy. It is important from considerations arising from the conditions of our principal supplier of coal. From all these points of view, whether we are going into an era of stability or instability, these considerations justify the Minister in what he is doing. But there is something more to it than that. Supposing, as many people see it and certainly the indications are there, that there may be a seriously critical time before us in which the supply situation can become difficult, then, when you add that to these other considerations, there is an unanswerable case to getting ahead with this job as quickly and as efficiently as possible. In fact, not only is it necessary in my view to prosecute what the Minister has directly in mind to a conclusion and to its fullest extent, but it is also necessary to keep in mind the possibilities of being thrown back virtually completely upon your resources in this regard, and that indicates further exploration, further forethought, further planning; it indicates the getting of mining equipment, such as is necessary, in advance.

I have in mind a matter of mineral development which is relevant to this company directly but, for certain reasons, I prefer not to discuss it at the moment. But, from information that I can consider as reliable, it is apparent that one of the difficulties facing this company during the war in some of its mining operations, and even after the war, was the securing of suitable equipment even to enable the job to be done at all, but certainly to be done efficiently and in the most direct and beneficial manner. That situation could arise again. It could arise in a critical situation which is actually short of anything like war. It could arise, for instance, in a situation that can develop in 1952, quite apart from postulating actual hostilities. Now, in such a case, whether it is from economic or financial or other reasons, if difficulties should arise it would be criminal for us when there is yet time not to provide as far as we can by forethought and getting the necessary plant and material for that development. In other words, not only should the Minister consider what he is doing here, this specific development for this coalfield, but he should also ensure that any other possible coalfields are explored and developed to the extent that will enable them to be quickly developed if required, even if it may not be possible economically to develop them in relation to ordinary peace-time standards. You should see that the plans are prepared, that the necessary surveying and development are done and that plant will be available for that purpose so that there will be no time lag.

Again referring to the matter which I do not want to discuss, it is apparent that in some of these mining activities during the last war since this company or its predecessor came into existence, there were unavoidable but serious time lags between taking over and going into production; in other words, between embarking on the project and a substantial output. Lessons can be learned from all these things and now is the time to learn them and be in a position to say that, if the occasion arises, not only is the lesson learned, but that it can be demonstrated that we are in a position to obviate any difficulties that were met before.

The Chair has ruled that this is not the proper occasion for a general discussion of our mineral resources. The same remarks that I have made in regard to coal would, however, practically apply to a number of minerals. We have not extensive deposits. I am afraid that I cannot be as optimistic about our resources as Deputy Lehane. On the other hand, there are valuable resources there. Whatever their peace-time potentiality may be, their value as an emergency resource or in times of stringency is inestimable. They vary from such things as metal to lead and copper; even, if you are put to it, a certain amount of iron—very uneconomic, of course. But, certainly there appears to be some lead and copper there and also some phosphate and coal as well as pyrites, which is a very interesting question and is in point under this Bill. During the war the question of sulphuric acid arose.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not appear to be relevant.

Major de Valera

It is because there is a reference to Avoca in it and this deals with Avoca. Avoca pyrites were available. There were, however, considerable difficulties in making immediately available plant for producing sulphuric acid. Sulphuric acid is a very important industrial chemical. It is a very important chemical in the manufacture of fertiliser and it is, therefore, of paramount importance to the country. Again there is a lesson to be learned from our experiences during the war years and our efforts to meet the deficiency that existed from our own resources. At that time there was not a sufficient development or a sufficient supply available. We should ensure now that, if such a situation arises again, these materials will be available, apart altogether from the obvious advantage of relying on one's own materials and using one's own labour in their development rather than importing them from abroad.

The Bill is accepted as it stands. The only criticism, if any, to be made is that it does not go far enough. I would urge upon the Minister to ensure that such moneys as are voted now are in fact adequately, properly and efficiently expended so as to give the best return in the shortest possible time. The Vote of the House should represent the first stage in action taken. Votes, speeches and explanations matter not a jot. The important thing is to get the job done and we join our exhortations to the Minister to see the job is done. Viewing the problem from the point of view of insurance against a possible emergency and the potential value of our own assets at such a time, apart altogether from ordinary economic and financial considerations which might impel us towards mineral development, I ask the Minister to see that this urgent matter receives not only prompt and vigorous attention, but a vigorous attention with a driving force behind it.

Mr. Sheehan

I am satisfied that we are all anxious to see the mineral resources of the country fully developed. Deputy Lemass told us that the experts hold that there is a deposit in the region of 5,000,000 tons of coal at Slievardagh. The Minister said there might be 140,000,000 tons. Even if there are only 50,000,000 tons a similar quantity imported from England to-day would cost something in the region of £30,000,000. If that amount of money was spent on Slievardagh it would be money well spent. Any money in circulation in the country is money well spent. Deputy Lehane appealed to the Minister to ensure that there would be a ready market for this coal. There is a ready market. It is impossible to get similar coal from England since the end of the war.

I think the Minister should bend all his energies to encouraging both private and State enterprise in the development of our mineral resources. I am a coal merchant in the City of Cork. In the last three or four months we have found it very difficult to get coal in Cork. A cargo came in last week which was made up of several different types of coal. The Minister should explore the position. Money spent inside the State on the resources of the State is money well spent.

Mr. Hickey

I would like to refer to slates.

Mr. Morrissey

In conjunction with coal?

Mr. Hickey

I am interested in coal as well as slates.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must take another occasion on which to speak of slates. He is prospecting in the wrong place now.

Mr. Hickey

I thought we were dealing with mineral development.

Mr. Morrissey

This Bill deals only with coal. I am glad to say there is no slate in Slievardagh coal.

Mr. Hickey

Deputy Sheehan referred to a cargo of coal which came into Cork last week. That cargo had to be divided over a number of coal merchants. It is impossible to get coal from England at the moment and I understand we have to pay dearly for what we do get. We should not be fearful about spending money on the development of our mineral resources. The time has come when we must take a serious view of any lack of encouragement towards mineral development.

It is rather strange that a Hungarian can come into West Cork and ship pyrites out of it because there is no one in the country sufficiently interested in the development of our mineral resources.

Captain Cowan

On the face of it this Bill is a very simple one, but it does give rise to quite a number of serious considerations. I am in thorough agreement with what has been said by Deputy Hickey and Deputy Sheehan. Where there is a possibility of mineral development and where there is a possibility of establishing an industry which will help us to provide our own essential commodities and employment, that development should be assisted and subsidised to the fullest extent. I agree with Deputy Con Lehane that that type of development cannot be left to private enterprise.

I am sorry if my intervention prevents the Minister getting his Bill through this evening. I understand this discussion must cease at half-past seven.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is the limit.

Captain Cowan

I do not want to open up the particular line of argument I have to advance in support of the Minister's case for this particular Bill.

Debate adjourned.