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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Mar 1950

Vol. 119 No. 7

Private Deputies' Business. - Milk Prices—Motion.

I move the following motion standing in the name of Deputy Cogan and myself:—

That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that, having regard to existing costs of production, the prices paid to the producer for milk supplied to creameries and also for milk sold for human consumption are inadequate and ought to be increased so as to bring about an expansion of the dairying industry and consequently an increase in the cattle population and an improvement in the supplies of milk and butter available to the consumer.

At the outset, I want to make it clear to the House that I propose to confine myself to the question of the price of milk which is supplied to creameries. This is the particular line in which the farmers in my county and in the surrounding counties are concerned. I leave to other Deputies the task of dealing with the price of milk which is supplied to cities and towns.

I think that the present price of milk supplied to creameries was fixed in mid-April, 1947. At that time agricultural wages were 44/- per week. That was the fixed minimum wage at the time. Shortly after that, in a month I think, those wages were increased to 50/- a week, and on the 15th March, 1948, they were further increased to 55/-. On the 4th April, 1949, they were increased to £3 a week. In addition to that, in the intervening period, both national health and employers' liability insurance were increased by, I think, roughly 27½ per cent., so that if we add the increase under both these heads to the wage of £3 a week, we get a total of £3 2s. 7d. a week. Naturally, one would think that a very large increase in the agricultural labourer's wage, even though everyone in the House will agree that it is too small a wage for the agricultural labourer.

Apart from that, and considering that very heavy increase in wages, one would think that the price of milk supplied to the creameries would have been increased, but it has not. We are told by the Minister for Agriculture that there is no necessity to increase the price of milk supplied to the creameries, that supplies are increasing at such a rapid rate that there is no necessity for it, and that that is sufficient evidence that the farming community is well satisfied with the present price. I do not think I mentioned what the present price is. It is 1/2 per gallon for seven months of the year and 1/4, I think, for the other five months. The Minister appears to be satisfied that that is an adequate return to the farmer for the milk he produces and sends to the creamery.

Since this motion was tabled, considerable changes have taken place. The land of Ireland after continuous cropping and without sufficient manure, either farmyard manure or artificial fertilisers had become poor in producing food for other sections of the community when very little food— probably none—was to be had from outside. With the extremely bad winter of 1946 and Spring of 1947 the milk yield of cows has gone very low. Naturally, with the return per cow from the price prevailing at the creameries during the summer of 1947 the farmers were dissatisfied and said it was not adequate. But since then, through the mercy of God, the weather has become more favourable and, with the availability of fertilisers, the grass lands which the Minister recently described as fear gurta have improved, with the result that the milk yields have considerably increased in the intervening period.

Another factor is that, owing to conditions which arose outside this State, the price of store cattle has increased very considerably with the result that there is a better price for dropped calves than there had been. But, even taking into consideration these two factors, the higher milk yields as a result of better feeding grass, more feeding for the winter through better crops and also the application for artificial fertiliser to grass, I still maintain that an increase in the price of milk supplied to creameries is overdue and should be put into force immediately.

That leads us to the question of what would be an adequate price for farmers to get for milk produced on their farms and supplied to the creameries. I suppose if I mentioned any particular figure it would be challenged from all sides of the House. I think it better, therefore, to give the figures supplied recently by others with regard to milk costings. Last week, Deputy Keane stated that they had figures in Cork to show that milk could be produced at 11.94d. per gallon. He did not tell us where those figures were available. I have not seen them; I do not know if any other Deputy has. He did not tell us on what these figures were based, what allowance was made for the various items that go into the costings of milk. Therefore I think that is a figure which no one can stand over unless it is put before the public and analysed to see if adequate sums are allowed for the various items of costings. Therefore I think that I may dismiss that from consideration.

Then I come to the figures disclosed by the Minister for Health in reply to a parliamentary question on the 21st of last month. These figures were in connection with the costings of milk on the farm attached to Grangegorman Mental Hospital. In round figures, he said that the milk costings for the year 1948 were 3/1 per gallon, and that an estimate of the costings in 1949 would be 2/10½ per gallon. I am not going into the decimals which the Minister gave. Nevertheless, these figures are in striking contrast with the figure that Deputy Keane alleges was produced in Cork. What is the cause of the wide gap between these two figures? Obviously, the figures given by the Minister of Health were based on actual costings, the cost of food, the cost of labour, the cost of veterinary expenses and a few other items which he gave in reply to a parliamentary question yesterday.

The Minister for Health was questioned yesterday as to the basis on which these costings were arrived at and replied that on the 1948 figures the food of the cows cost 20.37d. per gallon; labour, 7.02d.; health maintenance 2.34d.; veterinary fees and expenses 1.17d., and miscellaneous expenses, 6.40d., making a total of 37.3d., or 3/1 per gallon. If we exclude the cost of food, which is, roughly, 1/8½., or slightly less, per gallon, it leaves for labour, herd maintenance, veterinary fees and expenses and miscellaneous expenses 1/5 per gallon.

Whatever the cause of it, the cost of producing milk on that farm attached to Grangegorman was considerably more than the price the farmer gets for supplying milk to the creamery for manufacture into butter. These are actual costings arrived at on hired labour. They were so represented to me and I have no reason to doubt the fact. These are actual costings based on a high agricultural output. How then can the figure which Deputy Keane gave of 11.94d. per gallon be justified? Going further than that then, Deputy Fagan said last week that he had been speaking to a farmer from County Limerick and that that farmer told him that he had an average return in the past year of £51 per cow for milk supplied to the creameries and that he got £9 apiece for the dropped calves, making a total of £60 per cow. We have no reason to doubt what Deputy Fagan told us. Nevertheless the House has no proof as to the accuracy of those figures and cannot, therefore, accept them as accurate. Unless there is definite proof of particular figures, the House need not accept those figures.

I propose now to give figures for another area. These are figures that can be authenticated. These are figures that can be checked in the Department of Agriculture. Killeshandra Creamery is the biggest creamery in my county. It gets its supplies of milk from three provinces, Ulster, Leinster and Connaught. It should, therefore, be a fairly representative area. The supplies to that creamery in 1947 totalled 2,841,134 gallons; in 1948, they increased to 3,167,834 gallons; and in 1949, they increased to 3,939,227 gallons. That represents an increase of practically 25 per cent. over three years. But there are qualifying factors. In the first instance, as I mentioned at the outset, the poverty of the land and the poor feeding qualities of the grass in 1947 naturally left a very low point from which to start. It was not much more than half the supplies of milk received by the same creamery in 1939 so that there was a rather low starting point and the 25 per cent. increase on that is not so very impressive, although it is something for which to be grateful. But there are other factors entering into the picture. That area covers approximately 25 miles each way. It is fairly well catered for by auxiliary creameries or collecting stations. Yet, there were a number of farmers who would not supply milk to the creameries for one reason or another. The number was not very large because it is the custom of the farmers in that area to supply milk to the creameries. When the subsidy on home-made butter was removed in 1948 those farmers who did not supply the creameries found that the price for home-made butter was unremunerative and they then began to supply milk to the creameries. That was one qualifying factor.

Another important factor was that in the harvest of 1948 and the early months of 1949 the co-operative creamery commenced to provide fertilisers on credit terms to its milk suppliers. Under those credit terms payment did not begin for the fertilisers until the following July and August of 1949. The result was that something approaching 1,000 tons of North African phosphates were distributed to the farmers and spread on the grass-lands in that area. I think myself that was largely responsible for the increased supplies of milk in 1949 as compared with 1947 and 1948. Possibly some people may look upon the money returned to the milk suppliers from 1948 to 1949 as a net gain. Those who understand farming know that that is not so. We must not forget that this 1,000 tons of phosphates had to be paid for eventually and that must be taken out of the gross return from the creameries. In addition, there was an increase in the rates of from 6/- to 8/- between 1947 and 1949. That, too, must represent a costing item in the production of milk. When these things are taken out, the net return to the farmer is not so very great.

I want now to make a comparison with the figures for these Limerick cows about which we know nothing. We do know that the grass-lands of Limerick are superior to the grass-lands in Cavan where milk production is concerned. But we have not been told the type of cows they have in Limerick. Are they cows that have been bred over a long period for milk alone? We have not been told the breed of the calves, a matter which would have an important bearing on the ultimate value of the calves. I propose to give for comparison purposes the figures of the number of cows in the Killeshandra creamery area and the cash returned from the creamery for these cows. I have not got the total number of cows for 1947. In 1948 there were 13,506 cows, supplying 3,167,834 gallons of milk, an average of 235 gallons per cow. In 1949 there were 14,862 cows supplying 3,939,227 gallons of milk, a total of 265 gallons per cow. That represents an average increase of 30 gallons. Let us take the 265 gallons per cow in 1949 and calculate the return at 1/2½ per gallon. The House may possibly wonder how I arrive at that figure. I am sure the farmer Deputies understand it. The price from the creamery is 1/2 per gallon for the summer period and 1/4 per gallon for the winter period. The amount of milk supplied during the winter period and sold at 1/4 per gallon would be much less than what would be supplied during the summer period. Therefore, we could not strike an average of 1/3 per gallon. I suggest then that we take 1/2½.

I suggest that 1/2½d. is a fairly good average and that it would compare very favourably with all the creameries all over the country. At 265 gallons per cow—1/2½d. per gallon—the yield is £16 per cow. How does that compare with the £51 a cow in County Limerick? But, not wanting to take advantage of any figures to bolster up my case, I would suggest that we might add 25 per cent. more to the number of gallons each cow gave to be accounted for by the amount of milk we claimed at home and consumed in the home and on the farm over the year. If we take 25 per cent. of £16 it brings us up to £20 per cow. If we take into account the increased value of the dropped calf for the last two years I would say that £3 of an increase in price over the two years would be a big figure to add on. We would then have taken all the factors into consideration that would go to explain the increased income as the result of better grass and better drained fields for cows during the Winter period, and so on. On these figures, I suggest to the House that an increase in the price of milk supplied to creameries is now due. It has been due for a considerable time but it has been withheld.

I put the case for the farmers of my county and, I might say, for the farmers of the country. I commend this motion to the House and I feel that in justice to the farming community an increase should be given. If other sections of the community had any sense of justice they would have no hesitation in agreeing that an increase is due to the farming community.

I formally second the motion.

Deputy O'Reilly has made a case for the farmers in County Cavan and he made it very well on certain points. I do not pretend to take the view of the Minister for Agriculture on this—he is in the Seanad at the moment—but I have to approach this matter in the way in which it has been presented. Deputy O'Reilly has informed the House that he is speaking on behalf of the farmers of Cavan. There is somebody else in the House who also comes from Cavan and who assures us that he knows all about conditions in Cavan. Yet he has taken the line that he has taken for a very long time—he has become mute; he has nothing at all to say. This House can decide this question without any great difficulty. Deputy O'Reilly has made a case on the costings of farmers. The motion is a very simple one.

On what grounds does the Deputy base his case that the prices are totally inadequate? He asserts that a number of cows that he knows of in Cavan produce 265 gallons, approximately. He then told us that he was gracious enough to allow us 25 per cent. for the amount of milk consumed at home. Will anybody tell me who kept cows like that in this country? They should all have been executed at birth.

Along with the calves.

Surely you are not serious with a proposition that a 300-gallon cow should be kept alive?

Is the Minister aware that I quoted the figures of Killeshandra Creamery?

The Deputy has based his costs upon that and then he tells us that that is totally inadequate. Now he goes off upon a very big point but I notice that he did not give the reference for the Dáil Report that he was quoting from when he said that the Minister for Health told us what Grangegorman had to pay for the production of milk. I do not think that is a fair line at all to take. I do not know the circumstances under which Grangegorman has produced milk but I know that in a publication called Dublin Opinion they have a Grangegorman correspondent and I am just wondering who makes that report. Be that as it may, if that is the price Grangegorman has to pay for the production of milk, well, God help the ratepayers who have to support it.

Hear, hear. That is the reason why the question was put down.

I think it is a shocking state of affairs. No farmer in Ireland would look for that price because if he did what would the cost of butter be in Dublin to-day, in Longford, in Cavan town? What are the ratepayers of this country paying to keep the price of milk at its present level and to keep the price of butter at its present level? It is all right for the Deputy to get up here and argue and quote figures. Sir, I want to be quite candid. I never wanted to see the farmer badly paid for anything he ever did. I have been arguing for 17 years in the wilderness, telling the former Government here that the farmers were very badly paid and very badly compensated for their labour. That view was not accepted. This Government has come in and it proposes what? To leave the people of the country a reasonable living, not as the Leader of the Government then said, with hair-shirts but with good shirts. Let me pass on to this point. I know a little about farming though not much. I am a better blacksmith, I suppose, than a farmer. Deputy McGrath is smiling. He is anxious to become Tánaiste to me, as leader of the Master Farriers Association, but he will never get it. The fact of the matter is that the farmers to-day for the first time in their history are getting reasonable prices for their produce. The Minister for Agriculture, for whom I am deputising unworthily at the moment, suggests that our farmers should not keep any cow that is under the 500 gallon mark. I had a great old friend at one time, Father Paddy Higgins, God rest him, of Shannonbridge and he told me that he was able to buy calves in the open market and bring them up to be 1,100 gallon cows. They were ordinary shorthorn cattle. If that is so, what is the use of keeping something that is no good? You can increase the yield by breeding the right strain. No good ever came out of anything badly bred. Therefore I suggest to Deputy O'Reilly that he should go back to Cavan and bring Paddy Smith with him——

Deputy Smith.

I understood I could use "Paddy Smith."

I do not know of any reason for that familiarity.

Neither do I, to be quite candid. I now withdraw the name "Paddy" and I say Deputy Smith of Cavan, former Minister for Agriculture. I dispense with the familiarity and the Deputy will never hear it again. Deputy O'Reilly can bring Deputy Smith with him and let them go down to their agricultural committee in Cavan and say to it that they will get stuff enough and cattle enough to produce this particular quantity of milk. Let them have their milk testing association, which Deputy Smith as Minister for Agriculture did advocate——

You were mute of malice a moment ago.

The Minister stated that I advocated, when Minister, a certain line of policy. I ask him to say when.

When Minister.

Apparently he did not advocate it. I suggest to Deputy O'Reilly that he should adopt the point of view of the present Minister for Agriculture, introduce milk testing, get the proper type of cow and raise the milk yield from 300 gallons— he said 265 gallons—to 500 gallons, 600 gallons, 700 gallons or even to 1,000 gallons. Then perhaps he could get to the point where we would get another figure of the exact value to a farmer of a milch cow. May I go further and say that if a cow is well fed and well treated, her yield will be further increased? There is a question, I admit, of whether you will feed her with maize or some other type of food. You can do it if you wish by walking the produce off your own farm. It appears to me that the farmers of Cavan want the whole thing put on a plate for them. They want the Minister for Agriculture to go down himself and tell them what they should do. That is why we got rid of the last Government. The last Minister for Agriculture said he was going to line the hedges and the ditches with inspectors to make the farmers do something.

That was not giving it to them on a plate, was it?

The Minister for Agriculture in the previous Administration, and now Deputy Smith on the other side of the House, found himself in the position that he was going to line the hedges and the ditches with inspectors to make the farmers do this, that and the other thing. The farmers of Ireland took a poorish view of that. There is a Minister for Agriculture here to-day who has taken a different line, namely, that the farmers should be allowed to travel their own road, in their own way, without any compulsion being put on them. He advises them what they should do. He tells Deputy O'Reilly and Deputy Smith that they should keep, not the 300-gallon cow but the 700-gallon cow, and that in that way they would make much more money for themselves. He also appeals to them to use the produce of their own farms in feeding their stock. I subscribe to that view fully. In my opinion, the farmers will be best served by adopting that line and by supporting the present Minister for Agriculture in carrying out the advice he has given them, but not under any compulsion. I notice the Minister for Agriculture has come into the House and perhaps at this stage I might hand over to him so that he can take up the cudgels where I have laid them down.

It is rather funny that the Minister for Justice and myself should be discussing, within the space of three quarters of an hour, intoxicating liquor and milk. What a difference in price there is between them. If the appeals that were made by Deputies over there to the Minister for Agriculture in 1946 and 1947 had any honesty or any truth in them, there should be at this stage an uproar amongst those over there who pretend to represent the farmers in regard to the price, not alone of milk but of other agricultural products as well.

I gave in this House very many months ago, away back in May, 1948, costings then made by Professor Murphy of University College, Cork, in connection with the cost of production of milk. There is an enormous difference between the cost of production of milk with summer fed grass and the cost of production of milk over what you might call the seven winter months of the year—a wide difference. Professor Murphy found that during those seven months of the year, without taking into consideration the cost of management, the interest on the capital involved, or the insurance against disease, it cost 22.70d. to produce on the farm a gallon of milk. It cost 1/10.70 to produce the gallon. The Minister found fault with me because I added to that a sum for farm management, for interest on capital and for insurance.

Since then costs have increased enormously, particularly any costs involving tillage. I might point out that a joint committee, again presided over by Professor Murphy, found that since costings were taken on beet, the labour costs on an acre of beet had increased by £4 7s. 6d. per acre. That will give Deputies some idea of the increase in cost of a ton of mangolds or turnips, which were then valued by Professor Murphy at a guinea a ton. In order to get the 22.70d., the turnips used by the cattle were valued at a guinea a ton; the hay was valued at £5 a ton; the ensilage at £2 a ton, and the price of beet pulp then was £5 odd as compared with its present price of £7 15s. 0d.

Those were not the 250-gallon cows alluded to by my colleague, Deputy O'Reilly; those were cows milking somewhere around 550 or 600 gallons— Deputy Lehane will correct me if I am wrong. They were well fed, well looked after, and it was costing 1/10¾ to produce a gallon of milk on the farm without paying the farmer anything, without allowing him anything for the cost of farm management, without allowing anything for capital, or insuring his cattle against disease. Surely, if the milk producers of Cork and of the creamery areas at that period were able to persuade a hard-headed northerner like Deputy Smith here that the price was only a fair one and should be increased, is there any justification to-day for the Minister holding milk at the same price as it was in early 1947?

The price fixed by the last Minister for Agriculture is still the price of milk. There was no change, no improvement, despite the fact, as Deputy O'Reilly stated, that farm wages have gone up by 18/6 a week, counting wages and insurance, despite the fact that rates have gone up somewhere between 10/-and 12/- in the £, and despite the fact that feeding-stuffs also have gone up. I wonder how many extra gallons of milk will you get from the cows when you feed them on Argentine oats at 31/-a barrel or on the North American maize meal at 23/6 per cwt.?

I have a very definite objection to the idea that seems to be creeping in, not with the Minister exactly, but in the Minister's Department, that you can turn a cow over in one day, that you can convert completely the policy of a Department which has spent 25 years, practically, working to reduce the milk yield of cows. They have spent 25 years working on beef and they expect that you can convert a cow that is brought down to Deputy O'Reilly's figure of a couple of hundred gallons to a milking strain within six months. It takes three years to get the calf and four years before that breed is changed and before you put a bucket under the first cow produced under the new deal.

Those are facts the Minister should consider. I am not speaking here in any harsh terms; I am putting up what I consider is the fair case of people who, in my opinion, are unjustly treated.

I do not wish to go back too far by reading statements which were made in this House in 1944, 1945 and 1946. I would not like to read a statement that was made by Deputy Halliden in regard to the uneconomic price of milk at that period and the absolute need there was for an increased price. Neither am I going to read other statements made by the Deputy at various meetings down the country as to the price of milk, or statements made by my friend, Deputy Madden, who is not present. I think the Minister ought to judge this case on its merits. I think there is a fair and an honest case for an increase in the price to be paid for milk supplied to the creameries and for human consumption. As I have stated, there are farmers who go in for the policy of producing milk during the Summer months which they send to the creameries. During the Winter months they throw them a sop of hay. I have pointed that out to my colleague when passing up through Limerick. You can see the cows in four feet of mud in a small field and a sop of hay thrown to them. That is how the cows live from October to the following May.

If we are going to continue in milk production we must have some hard and fast policy. The farmer will have to know at some stage where exactly he stands. There is no use in having a fast and loose policy in regard to agriculture, but unfortunately that policy has been going on for the past two years. It was that fast and loose policy as regards oats that compelled us to go to the Argentine this year and buy oats to bring here. The Minister said it was a scandal and I agree with him. It is a joke to think that we have to import oats. The farmers found themselves so well scalded the harvest before last in the matter of oats that they decided, for good or ill, that they were not going to be caught any more. They grew some other crop and kept away from oats. If we are going to have that kind of a twist around policy in regard to everything, then agriculture is going to be brought back to the happy days, if one might call them so, of the 500 acre farm and the man and the dog. But nobody wants to see that. I speak as one who has 50 per cent. of his land under tillage, emergency or no emergency. The Minister may tell us that there is increased production of milk. There has been an increased production of many things owing to the amazing seasons that we have had of late. We had grass in the fields this time 12 months and a good summer before us. There has, however, been a definite reduction in the number of people remaining on the land. The farmers in my district find it practically impossible to get a man to do anything on a Sunday. The cow is not like the six-day licensed publicans. She has to be milked on Sunday as well as on Monday, and somebody has to do it.

As regards farmers who keep dairy cows, it is not a question of the minimum wage but rather a question of getting men to milk cows. A farmer would pay men anything in order to get them to do it. If you employ five men at present, four of them will tell you that they are not going to milk cows and have no idea of doing so on a Sunday. A neighbour of mine who had three men employed on Saturday last discovered on Sunday morning that they had gone. He had to take a bucket and milk 27 cows himself. There was nobody else to do it. The men he had left to take work on the building of the new sanatorium under the scheme of the Minister for Health at a wage of £4 7s. 6d. a week, plus overtime. They finish their work on a Saturday at 2 o'clock and need not bother any more about cows. I am sure men who get into positions of that sort are not going to take on the work of milking cows on a Sunday.

These are problems which are facing the people who at the present time keep dairy stock. These are the problems which, I am sure, actuated Deputy O'Reilly and Deputy Cogan to put down this motion. As a matter of fact, since the motion was put down conditions, as I am sure members of the House will agree, have become worse rather than better. I am sure the city Deputies like to get their milk supply on a Sunday as well as on a Monday. If the trade union conditions which apply in the cities, where men knock off at 2 o'clock on Saturday, are to be insisted on in the country areas, it will mean that the city people will have no delivery of milk on a Sunday morning. I am sure they would not like that. But that will be the only result very soon as far as the rural community is concerned. If we succeed in closing the pubs on Sunday they would be very dry.

In my opinion, a fair and honest case has been made for an increased price for milk, for some inducement to the farmer to continue on the job. If trade union conditions compel my colleague, Deputy Sheehan, to pay increased wages to his workers or, if he has to pay an increased rent for his premises, then the price of his coal will go up accordingly. That is business. But here is one section of the community carrying on the largest industry in this State. When their costs go up, they are held there against the wall. They are told: "There is to be no increase in your price, but you have to give holidays to your workers, to increase their wages by 18/6 per week and to pay 10/- in the £ increase in your rates. You must do all these things out of the ‘fat' that you got when Deputy Smith was Minister for Agriculture." There has been no increase since.

The good old days are now gone although we have a Farmers' Party in the Government who are supposed to look after the destinies of the rural community. I often wonder how long they are going to stick it or how long their constituents are going to let them stick it. I have been in this House about 23 years and I have seen five sets of unfortunate Deputies like these farmer Deputies over there. They have my sympathy. They will not, however, have my sympathy always unless they assert themselves and tell the Minister for Agriculture: "We are keeping you here and, unless you do something to change the condition of affairs for the farmer and see that the farmer is at least in as good a position under your régime or our régime as he was under that bad Fianna Fáil Government we used to talk about we will have to put you out."

You are talking to the gallery, and to the Irish Press.

Have a little bit of patience. I am dealing with my comrades over there at the moment. I guarantee that the Deputy will get his turn. I do not wish to start quoting extracts. If I did I could keep on for a long time quoting statements made in this House by Clann na Talmhan and by some Fine Gael Deputies with regard to the price of milk and costings.

The Deputy is repeating himself. He dealt with that before.

You are on the wrong side; come over here.

God forbid.

I do not want to irritate anybody. I would be very sorry if I thought I was getting under the skin of anybody over there. I do not wish to do it.

You should treat the House a little more seriously.

There is nobody talking more seriously than I am because I know where the shoe pinches. I am endeavouring to bring some Deputies back to a sense of their responsibility. So far as the portion of this motion dealing with milk to creameries for converting it into butter is concerned, I suggest to the Minister that there is a reasonable case there.

That is the seventh time you said that.

Some men try seven times and on the eight time succeed in touching the spot. Perhaps on the eighth occasion I may induce the Minis-to give justice to the unfortunate old farmer. Do not complain if I appeal so often. I only appeal because I know what the condition of affairs is and what the continuation of this situation will lead to. There is no use in the Minister's saying that he has got an increase in milk supplies this year or that there are as many cows in the country to-day as there were 12 months ago.

That is the third time you said that.

This is the first time. There is no use in the Minister telling me that. The farmer cannot change over in one day.

That is certainly the third time he said that.

I guarantee I will give the Minister plenty of time to come in on this.

I admit that is the first time you said that.

The farmer who is engaged in dairying has built up his dairy herd over a number of years. When he finds himself in the position that, because of the manner in which he is treated, he can make no profit and that he even makes a loss over a period, he is still not going to sacrifice ten or fifteen years of selective breeding, trying to build up a dairy herd to give a decent milk return, in twelve months. He is always hopeful that the day will come when those who represent him here will do their duty. He is always hopeful of a change of heart on the part of the Minister. He has nothing in his head but the happy hope that some day a new Minister for Agriculture will come into office and give him justice. He is not, therefore, going to change over in a day.

I want to warn the Minister about one matter. If a farmer goes out of dairying he will never go back into it again. He will find it a far easier and a happier job carrying out the grass farming recommended by the present Minister and his advisers from Australia. He will find it a far easier and a far happier job to ramble round the fields once in a while.

That is the third time we had that. The next phrase is the man and the dog.

Let some other idiot rear the calves and, when they are yearlings, let this farmer buy them and drive them in on his fields and watch them fattening for a couple of years until such time as they are fine and fat and ready to be sold as beef across the water. That is a far easier and a far nicer job for him. That is a job that does not carry all the annoyance, the torture and the worry that dairying carries. The farmer need not get up in the middle of the night and ramble out to see is the old cow calving. He need not rush out at 5.30 in the morning in order to see that the gentlemen in the city have fresh milk for their breakfasts. All these worries fade away immediately once he goes out of dairying. He weighs all that up in the balance and weighs up on the other side the hard-hearted manner in which he is received and in which his appeals are met week after week that he has spent knocking, begging at a door that is apparently locked and bolted against him.

I would willingly suspend Standing Orders and give the Deputy a tin whistle. Apparently he will talk until 10.30 without saying anything.

I wonder is it the Minister or I who is addressing the House at the moment.

You are not anyhow.

The Minister will get his turn here. Surely he does not want two turns. The Minister's answer will be to tell us the value of the calf and he will divide up the calves into 365 calves to prove to us how much more the farmer is getting on account of these calves. To my mind that is a very poor argument at the present time. It is a very poor argument against the increase in costs to which I have referred. It is all right for Deputies like Deputy O'Leary who can remain happily lying in bed in the morning waiting until the unfortunate farmer's son or farmer's boy knocks at the door with the milk to colour his tea so that he may have his breakfast in bed. The unfortunate man who has to get up in the morning at 6.30 to milk his cows——

In the name of order, you yourself have heard Deputy Corry use those identical words twice or three times. Surely a deliberate waste of public time is out of order.

Is it the Minister or the Chair who is the authority?

To my own knowledge the Deputy has repeated himself several times. I shall not allow it further.

I have not the slightest intention of repeating myself or delaying the House for one moment beyond making my case.

A Deputy

You are looking at the clock.

I do not need to look at the clock. I have dealt with the creamery side of the matter. I now intend to devote myself to the other side of the question, namely, the price paid for milk used for human consumption. I have dealt with grass-fed milk. In this case the milk producer must have the same quantity of milk at Christmas as he has in the month of July. That is a tough, hefty problem for him. For that reason he must go into the question of the purchase of cows or the rearing of heifers to calve at some period between 1st September and Christmas. If he goes in for heifers he will undoubtedly get pretty good heifers that will milk a reasonable quantity of milk. If, on the other hand, he is compelled to go to the fair or the market and purchase there a cow or a springer he will find himself up against the beef-quality of this country. He will find himself paying £40 or £50 for a springer or a cow of the pattern described by Deputy O'Reilly, the 200-gallon to the 250-gallon cow. I wonder what would be an economic price for that cow's milk? Each year the farmer has to buy several of those beasts.

Do you mean to say you pay £50 for a 200-gallon cow in Cork?

He would pay £50 for the cow.

We will send you down a few bad ones, so.

He would bring that cow home and milk her for the 12 months and she would give him only 200 to 250 gallons of milk.

And he paid £50 for her.

That is so.

He must be a bad judge.

If Deputy Sweetman had taken a turn at farming instead of finding a nicer, steadier, cleaner and better paid job for himself, I am sure that the wisdom he is putting into that job would work out far better in the farming line. We have not the advantage of having Deputy Sweetman in the farming line at all.

Debate adjourned.
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