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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Mar 1950

Vol. 119 No. 11

Industrial Development Authority Bill, 1949—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. In considering this Bill, which involves a more comprehensive approach to industrial development than has been attempted before, the House should, I think, have some indications of the progress made in industry since the establishment of the State. Deputies will, of course, realise that because of the inadequacy of the statistics relating to the earlier years of the State and because of the various changes in the scope and extent of the statistical surveys, it is not possible to trace industrial progress scientifically. In 1926, which was the first year of the census of industrial production, there were some 102,000 persons engaged in the industries and services covered by the census; the corresponding figure for industrial employment in 1949 has been estimated at 200,000, representing an increase of 96 per cent. on 1926. The most reliable information available to me at present suggests that when the final figures are compiled, the volume of industrial output will reflect an even more spectacular increase over the same period, and that production last year will prove to have approached two and a half times the 1926 dimensions. Output in terms of value, and also industrial earnings, have, of course, increased by a much greater extent on account of the rise in the general level of prices since 1926.

Despite the great progress shown by the indicators which I have given, the country is still in an undeveloped condition industrially. Beyond question, there is an urgent need for further and intensified industrialisation. The proportion of our occupied population engaged in industry is among the lowest, if not actually the lowest, in Europe. Less than one-fifth of our working population are so engaged, as compared, for example, with two-fifths for the Netherlands and one-third for France. I may say that this fraction of one-third is a familiar one in the statistics for continental countries and that it approximates closely to the proportions dependent on industrial occupations in other countries with which Ireland is sometimes compared.

I am convinced that the origin of many of our social and economic problems lies in this low proportion of our population employed in industry. Our emigration rate is high because of the inadequacy of employment in industry and ancillary occupations; the capacity of agriculture and other non-industrial pursuits to absorb the surplus population is subject to certain limits, and unless we can provide openings for them in industry I am afraid that the emigration rate cannot be very greatly reduced.

Our balance of trade, as Deputies know, is heavily adverse, partly because of substantial imports of many goods which we could and should produce ourselves, and partly because our exports of industrial products to countries other than Great Britain are so relatively trifling. From an examination of the 1948 and 1949 import statistics, I am of opinion that in each of those years approximately £60,000,000 worth of goods which could have been produced in the country were imported. If the current labour content of transportable goods may be taken as a guide, the production of this volume of goods would have kept 45,000 additional workers in industrial employment over the last two years. While industrial exports have been increasing in volume and value, they are not yet approaching the stage when they can make any significant contribution to the cost of our purchases from countries other than Great Britain.

Sufficient has, perhaps, been said to demonstrate the necessity for further industrial expansion. I should like to ask Deputies to consider the scope that exists for development and the means and resources that are at our disposal for utilisation. We have a plentiful supply of labour and I might mention in that connection that many industrialists in Ireland and abroad have complimented our workers on their efficiency and adaptability in familiarising themselves with new processes.

I think nobody will deny that capital is available in quantities sufficient to finance many industrial undertakings. Deputies have some idea of the extent of our assets abroad. An authority has recently stated that the amount of Irish capital invested abroad per head of the population, namely, £150, is probably larger than that for any country in the world. The existence of this phenomenon in conjunction with the serious under-investment at home to which the Taoiseach has already drawn public attention, provides, I suggest, unflattering testimony to the extent to which we have developed our resources up to the present. As the Taoiseach has intimated, it is the Government's wish that private investment in industrial and other productive projects should be substantially increased.

The House will, I am sure, agree that in the circumstances of this country there is a clear need for a courageous, imaginative and vigorous effort to change radically a situation that contains obvious dangers from the national standpoint.

The Government are certain that in the national interest the development of industry should not be left to follow a course set by the uncoordinated activities of individuals, companies and groups working to cater for market requirements as determined by themselves. There is still a wide field for further industrial activity, but it is one in which there is need at Government level for assisting and supplementing the efforts of private enterprise, firstly, by careful research and planning so that it may be determined by reference to national as well as to individual interests what precisely remains to be done and how and where it may best be done, and secondly, by taking the necessary step, to ensure that developments regarded as necessary or desirable will be undertaken and carried out.

In this task of formidable proportions and of paramount national importance, the Government have felt the need for a specialised autonomous organisation. They have, therefore, set up the Industrial Development Authority to advise and assist the Government in the intensification of industrial development on the best possible lines; the primary purpose of this Bill is to give statutory effect to the Government's action, with effect as from the 26th May, 1949.

The Government appointed four members of the authority, and have selected those members because of their wide knowledge and long practical experience of industrial affairs, and of their contacts with industrialists, with traders, with workers and with financial and professional organisations closely connected with industry. To these members the Government have given that degree of freedom which they consider essential to the effective discharge of the functions of the authority. The members will not be civil servants, neither will they be subject to Civil Service regulations or procedure. They will have their own offices, their own staff, and their own finances. Provision has been made in the Bill for an annual grant to defray their remuneration and to meet such expenses incidental to their work as they in their sole discretion consider necessary to enable them to discharge their functions. They will, therefore, be free to frame their own programme, to regulate their own procedure, to travel where and when they consider it necessary, and generally to operate as a fully autonomous body. Already the Government has had ample evidence of how this self-governing, flexible type of organisation has made for expeditious, practical and efficient handling of various problems on which advice has been tendered by the authority.

From Section 3 of the Bill it can be seen how wide is the field over which the operations of the authority will range. So many sided are its functions and so closely related are most of them to the daily work of portion of my Department that at the outset it was obviously necessary to avoid duplication and overlapping and to ensure speedy co-ordination of effort. With this in view it was decided that the work formerly undertaken by the trade and industries branch of my Department should be assigned to the authority, and hence the officials engaged in that work in my Department have been appointed by me to assist the authority, and now constitute the staff of the authority.

The primary function of the authority is that of planning new industries. As part of this work the authority have been examining the steps necessary to undertake a survey of industrial resources and possibilities so as to obtain as clear a picture as possible of what has been done and what still remains to be done and what resources and facilities are available or can be made available. This survey will be carried out by the staff of the authority under its direction and supervision, and thereafter will be maintained up to date on a continuing basis for the use and information of the Government, of industries already established and yet to come into being, and for the use of the authority itself. The survey will show for the first time in comprehensive form the structure of existing industrial enterprise and will be a valuable indication of industrial possibilities. By this means supplemented by information obtainable from the Central Statistics Office and other Government agencies, there will be available for each important manufacturing activity information on many aspects about which little is known at present, except in so far as an individual concern is aware of its own background.

We do not know at present, for example, how much capital is invested in industry or how it is represented by buildings, by plant and machinery, by stocks of raw materials or of partly finished or finished goods, by debtors and by other assets. Neither do we know how these vary from year to year and from industry to industry. We do not know how industry is financed—e.g. the extent to which the capital is provided by shareholders, debenture holders, bankers, creditors and reserves. We do not know how many shareholders have provided the capital nor have we any information as to the dividends they receive, which is itself an indication of whether times are good or bad. Much more information can be obtained than is now available in respect of each principal industrial product, as to the extent and type of employment given, as to wages and earnings, labour turnover, welfare schemes, unemployment experience, etc. So also can information be obtained bearing on the manner in which the distribution of industrial products is organised. Generally the survey will show how and where the country is industrialised, the yearly progress in the case of each important activity, and the extent and location of the human and natural resources which allow of further development.

The compilation of this survey will take time, but meanwhile the authority is engaged in initiating the development of industries in which a preliminary survey made by it suggests there are promising prospects. I am aware, for instance, of an approach by the authority which has resulted in immediate steps being taken to establish a factory of considerable size to meet our requirements in an essential product hitherto wholly imported. I am also aware of visits by members of the authority to factories in various parts of Ireland, including the Six Counties, in England and in Scotland, which have given rise to proposals to establish industries of importance or have revived desirable proposals which had lapsed. I also know that the members of the authority are personally conducting negotiations in a number of directions which are likely to result in definite proposals to establish industries.

Broadly, the authority's method of approach in the case of a commodity not already being manufactured in the country will be first to satisfy themselves that the commodity in question can be technically produced here. Then the possibility of manufacture will be examined in all its aspects and such factors as capital, labour, raw materials, power, fuel, plant, etc., will be fully examined. Having satisfied themselves that manufacture is feasible, the authority will not wait for proposals, as has been the general practice heretofore, but will themselves initiate steps to secure the establishment of the industry. Groups interested in learning of suitable industries will be contacted; if there is no such group in the area considered suitable, the authority will endeavour to bring about the formation of such a group. The formulation of a sound manufacturing scheme and the steps necessary to bring the project to fruition will be pushed ahead by the authority, whose business it will be to remove all obstacles in the way of industrial promoters.

Of equal importance is the function of bringing about an expansion of the activities of existing industrial enterprises. Indeed, it is in this field that results can often be achieved most rapidly. In its examination of applications for tariffs, for quotas and for duty-free import licences, the constant aim of the authority is to bring about as wide as possible an expansion of existing industrial activity. Again, an instance of which I am aware will illustrate what is being done and what can be done in this respect. In the examination of a tariff application, the authority undertook a survey of an industry in which so many competitive firms operated that a comprehensive picture of output did not exist. The goodwill of the manufacturers concerned towards the authority enabled confidential figures of output to be assembled by the authority, which, in conjunction with its statistical research, showed for the first time a very substantial scope for increased output and employment in a particular direction, which hitherto had been obscured in the complexities of the industry itself. In the examination of other tariff applications similar results emerged through co-ordinating the aim of expansion of output with that of affording protection.

Apart from pursuing opportunities for expansion which come to light in this way, the authority has taken the initiative in urging the need for expansion of output in other industries. It is the view of the authority, and I may say I endorse it, that there is considerable scope for manufacturers to increase output and employment, and that being already established, it is very much easier for existing industries to meet market requirements than to have those requirements met by newcomers. By market requirements I do not mean domestic market requirements only. The authority has as a major item on its programme the aim of increased exports of industrial products and have already furnished me with an interim report in this matter.

In carrying out its functions relating to the establishment of new industries and the expansion of existing industries, the authority is giving and will continue to give special attention to the question of promoting industrial activity outside the main centres of population. While it has been the undoubted desire of every Government since the establishment of the State to decentralise industry and in particular to divert it from Dublin, no Government has sought statutory powers to control the location of industries, and at present, apart from externally-owned and controlled concerns requiring a licence under the Control of Manufactures Act, I have no authority to prescribe a particular location for a factory. The claims of many towns and districts for industries have from time to time been noted and the records are in the possession of the Industrial Development Authority.

In accordance with a long-standing practice, these claims are brought to the notice of parties likely to be interested. I am bound to say, however, that in the vast majority of cases in the past industrial promoters had decided on a location before approaching my Department, and there was very little I could do to influence them in the selection of a site. I myself had experience of an industrial project which was proposed and which was approved by me on the basis of a provincial site, but which was afterwards located in Dublin. This example will serve to give Deputies an idea of the impotence of the Minister for Industry and Commerce in the matter of having industries set up in particular districts.

The Government preference for a provincial location and the advantages attaching to the operating of a business outside Dublin are invariably brought to the notice of industrial promoters. Despite official persuasion, however, the majority of those promoters show an unmistakable bias in favour of Dublin, with the result that the population of the city continues to increase and that the major portion of the country's additional industrial population since 1926 is resident there. The question of any measures that might be taken to induce persons interested to locate their factories in provincial towns and rural areas is under examination by the authority which will make a report to me on the matter in due course. I cannot make any definite statement on the matter until the views of the authority are fully considered by the Government.

An important function of the authority is the examination of all applications for tariffs, quotas and for duty-free import licences. During the emergency, many quotas and tariffs were suspended for obvious reasons. Now that emergency conditions are passing, there are numerous applications for the reimposition of protective measures. These require careful examination so as to ascertain the degree of protection required and to estimate the probable effects of such protection in the light of present conditions and with due regard to any special disadvantages under which our manufacturers operate. I have used the phrase "in the light of present conditions" having in mind that when an industry is first established it is problematical how much protection it really needs, but as it gains strength and experience, it should be possible to measure more accurately its reasonable need for protection and to require that with such protection it produces goods of satisfactory quality at a reasonably competitive price while giving maximum employment, proper wages and good conditions. These are matters on which the Government must get an unbiased view and hence they have referred them to the authority as being a body on whom they can rely for a recommendation which will take into account the views of industrialists, workers and consumers.

In addition to the examination of applications for either new protective measures, or the reimposition of suspended protective measures, the authority will also have under constant review the entire scale of protection with the same aims in view as I have just indicated. I am aware of certain industries whose critics point to a high measure of protection but whose products sell at lower prices than in neighbouring countries or at prices very much below those which would obtain if the industry took anything like full advantage of its protection. It is in the interests of such industries to relate the degree of protection to realities so as to meet unfounded criticisms so damaging to Irish industry. In general, it is obvious that irrespective of the degree to which protective measures are being availed of, there is need for a periodic examination of the tariff position so as to ensure proper consideration of the interests of all parties involved, industrialists, traders, workers and consumers.

The authority is also charged with the examination of applications for licences for the free importation of dutiable goods. No less than 51,523 such licences were issued in the year 1948 and the duty remitted amounted to £3,601,086. Not only does the issue of these licences give rise to considerable administrative and executive work but the very fact that they assume such large proportions suggests the need for close secrutiny with two objects in view. Firstly, it may be found, and indeed has been found in some cases, by the authority that dutiable goods for which free import facilities are sought are goods which could and should be made here by the manufacturers for whose protection the duty was imposed. In such cases by arrangement with the manufacturers, the authority is endeavouring and will endeavour to secure an increase in domestic output to meet market requirements. Secondly, it has been found that certain goods are of a kind which cannot be made here or are unlikely to be made here at any time, and in such cases the authority recommends the amendment of the tariff description so as to make it unnecessary to seek duty-free licences. The continuing careful examination by the authority of applications for such licences will, therefore, have a double advantage of increasing industrial output and reducing administrative and executive work.

The authority will also be responsible for the work involved in the administration of the Control of Manufactures Acts and of the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Acts since this work is ancillary to their other functions.

Numerous matters affecting industry are being considered by the authority either on their own initiative or at the instance of the Government. Among those are industrial taxation, provision of external technical assistance, methods adopted abroad to further industrial development, methods of developing industrial exports, etc. Reports on some of those questions have already been submitted by the authority and their recommendations on others are awaited.

The authority, as well as advising the Government, will be able to give advice, guidance and assistance to industry in general. I may say that I am already aware of cases in which the authority has intervened to provide an alternative activity to one which did not prove successful; to arrange the provision of financial accommodation required for industrial purposes; to nullify devices adopted by outside interests to evade tariffs, and to indicate to applicants for protection more suitable alternatives to meet their difficulties.

I have said sufficient, I think, to indicate how wide is the field of activity in which this body will operate and how important are its functions. No Government Department has hitherto been asked to exercise the specific and comprehensive functions assigned to the Industrial Development Authority, nor has any Government Department been empowered to operate with the flexibility and independence allowed to that body by the Government. The Industrial Development Authority is thus a new conception involving a planned approach to industrial development by selected personnel with wide industrial experience operating as a self-governing body assisted by a skilled and experienced staff of State officials. I am satisfied from the results achieved to date that this amalgamation of outside practical experience with the existing administrative and executive official machine has fully justified itself. The Industrial Development Authority, I suggest, deserves the widest degree of support and co-operation in the carrying out of the task which so profoundly affects the national well-being. On the Government's part the authority will have its fullest support. To it will be referred all industrial matters and it will be by reference to its recommendations that the Government will decide on industrial policies. In short, the Government have set up an organisation which, with the prestige and influence which its functions imply, and the flexibility of which I have already spoken, should, in my opinion, be a fully effective instrument in the vital national task entrusted to it.

It is very similar to what the Labour Deputies advocated in this House years ago.

That is not against it, I hope.

I suppose that a Government which can think of no other suggestion for the solution of national difficulties than the establishment of a commission is entitled to describe as "a more comprehensive approach" the proposal to set up an Industrial Development Authority. Supporters of popular racehorses frequently proclaim their merits by asserting their capacity to win dragging a cart. Irish industry is being asked now to show its merit by winning the race for increased productivity dragging a cart, a cart without wheels. We have here a project to set up a commission, and the functions of that commission are set out in eight paragraphs in Section 3. In order to get eight paragraphs, they had to be spread as thin as jam on workhouse bread. There are three duties which the Minister contemplates this commission will have. It will discuss industrial development and advise the Minister concerning it; it will hold inquisitions into the effect of protective measures in force; and it will conduct investigations into proposals for new protective measures. To the extent that that work is necessary, it has been done in the Department of Industry and Commerce. It has, I think, been done effectively there and the only consequence of the change proposed in the Bill is that it is now going to be done more slowly. It is the same officers who will deal with it. The staff of the Department is being moved from Kildare Street to Merrion Square—that is all.

St. Stephen's Green.

Not even as far as Merrion Square. Might I, as a former head of that Department, ask what has happened to it? What is left of it? The Trade and Industries Branch has gone to St. Stephen's Green as the staff of the Industrial Development Authority. The Minister has relinquished all his functions in relation to public transport; he has transferred to the Department of External Affairs functions which he had in relation to external trade; he has transferred to the Minister for Agriculture other functions which in the past occupied the Department of Industry and Commerce; the Statistics Branch has gone to the Department of the Taoiseach; and I think it not unlikely that we will have soon a proposal to lease the building in Kildare Street to Córas Iompair Éireann for conversion into a bus station.

If the Deputy had carried out a few of these changes he might have saved the country many millions of money.

Perhaps I might have.

Get down to brass tacks.

That is all that is going to be left in the Department of Industry and Commerce—brass tacks.

There is less brass there, anyway.

The proposal is to transfer the trade and industries branch of the Department to a new office in St. Stephen's Green, there to function under this Industrial Development Authority, instead of under the Minister responsible to the House. Needless to remark, we are opposed to this proposal. It is a typical product of the Fine Gael mind. During all the 25 years I have been a member of this Dáil, I have been fighting against that Fine Gael mentality which is expressed in every line of this Bill, that negative approach tó national problems, that attitude which says that the function of government is to decide how far they will permit the country to progress, instead of urging it on. The attitude of the Fine Gael Party expressed in this Bill, the attitude so frequently expressed by the representative of the Party introducing this Bill, is not conducive to industrial development. It is the attitude which approaches the question of industrial development with the idea of deciding to what extent it should be permitted, to what extent it is necessary to erect safeguards against it or to exercise vigilance over it.

The Deputy found it very necessary to do that a few years ago.

I will tell the Minister what I did a few years ago when I first came into office as Minister for Industry and Commerce and found in this country the material consequences of ten years of Fine Gael rule. I am going to try on this occasion to get some of the Deputies supporting the Government to exercise the power they have to prevent the country being dragged down again into that condition. I know that Fine Gael has always argued that industrial development was a Fianna Fáil pipe-dream, something that was bound to fail, a development which would distort what they regarded as the natural economy for this country. They may have, as a result of their contacts with other Parties during the past two years, modified that attitude somewhat. The fact that we now have members of the Fine Gael Party as Ministers paying lip-service to the idea of industrial development and protesting their anxiety to see it go ahead is an indication at least that contact with other Parties has taught them the political wisdom of changing their former attitude; but I have no doubt whatever that the conception of Irish economic development which these Fine Gael Ministers really hold has not changed one iota from the time when on these benches they resisted every project to promote industrial development here, voted against very tariff, opposed every Bill, every idea and every proposal brought to this House to encourage it. They are not now openly opposing it. They are not now taking the same frankly hostile attitude as they took before 1939. They are going to sink it by hanging around its neck an industrial development authority whose function will be to see that nothing happens, except an investigation, a survey, a collection of statistical material.

The Deputy is annoyed because it has been so successful over the past two years.

Successful in what?

The Deputy was hoping it would crash down.

Is it not reasonable to expect that the Minister, when introducing this Bill, would have produced one single achievement of this Industrial Development Authority? It has been functioning for 12 months, and surely, if there were any such achievement, we would have heard all about it when he was introducing this Bill.

The Deputy would like me to give confidential information?

The Minister has said that this Industrial Development Authority has achievements. If there are achievements, we should be able to see them in factories built and men at work. Where are they?

They are going to be.

And not in the back streets, either.

Where are they?

You regarded them as white elephants at one time.

Deputy O'Leary has perhaps not gained from contact with his new allies as much as the Fine Gael people have.

You let in all the Jews.

He is the result of Deputy MacEntee's example over the years.

If Deputy O'Leary went back a bit on his own past and tried to recapture the faith that was his then, he would realise how far he is wandering now from the cause that first brought him into the Dáil.

You wandered a long way.

If the charges now being made against Fine Gael were made yesterday against Fianna Fáil, I know what would happen.

The Minister read out a long, dreary speech without a single interruption.

And it impressed nobody but Deputy Lemass?

I did not hear any cheering from behind the Minister.

Nothing but gloomy faces.

I will tell the Deputy one case in which there are more men at work as a result of the activities of this authority.

Yes, in St. Stephen's Green.

In an Irish industry manufacturing Irish goods. I hope to have the opportunity of telling the Deputy all about it.

I will tell the Deputy when I am speaking.

Something that would not have happened if this authority had not been created? Is that what the Deputy is trying to suggest?

An existing industry which has extended.

The drive for industrial development has not lost its impetus. It will go on in spite of the Minister and the Industrial Development Authority, but it will go on at a steadily diminishing pace, unless the impediments to it are removed. That is what I am asking the House to do—to remove this impediment which has been deliberately created so that the Fine Gael conception of our natural economy can be restored.

Is the Deputy worried about Fine Gael?

Mr. de Valera

There were no interruptions of any kind when the Minister was speaking. Can we hope for a similar hearing for Deputy Lemass?

I am sorry.

I have described this Bill as the product of the Fine Gael mind. The Fine Gael mind never accepted industrial development as natural, inevitable and desirable here. They always argued that those who wanted to participate in industrial development were under obligation to justify themselves, under obligation to demonstrate in advance the extent of their plans, to submit these plans to detailed investigation and to have them proved in detail, before they would be given permission to proceed or help in achieving success. That was the mentality expressed in the Tariff Commission Act. The Tariff Commission Act, which is the grandfather of this Bill, was an entirely Fine Gael measure, and, in consequence of the Tariff Commission and its activities from 1923 or 1924 to 1931, industrial development in this country bogged down. Even the few industries which had survived the British regime and which were still in existence when the Fine Gael Government came into office were dying out because of the attitude of that Government.

The first step necessary to get the country out of the position into which it had been dragged by the Fine Gael mentality and the Tariff Commission was taken in 1932 and the policy applied then was described as one of "whole-hog" protection. It was described as indiscriminate protection. It is true that rough and drastic measures had to be taken in order to overcome the international circumstances of that time, to break down the hostility of financial and commercial circles to the idea of industrial development, to convince people that another attitude was possible here, to create a situation in which the public mind would begin to look upon industrial development as something inevitable, that would put an obligation on those opposing it to justify their opposition instead of an obligation on those who wanted it to justify their case.

It is true that circumstances are different now. The abnormal international conditions which made whole-hog protection necessary in the pre-war years, if there was to be any industrial development at all, do not now exist. They may reappear. It is the fear that they may reappear, rather than any current circumstances, which makes it certain that those who want to engage in any new industrial venture will seek assurances in relation to protection from the Government.

Many new concerns might be started and profitably operated now without protection, but it is the memory of what did arise in international trade before the war, and the possibility of it arising again, and arising in circumstances in which there would be a Fine Gael Government in office operating a Tariff Commission such as existed after the last war, that creates a situation in which those who want to begin industrial development are cautious.

The Deputy is taking good care that he will destroy their confidence.

I want to get from the Government an assurance that adequate protection will be forthcoming when the circumstances arise.

The Deputy is doing his best to destroy the confidence.

That is what he is doing.

On a point of order, we listened patiently to the Minister making a long speech, without interruption. Since Deputy Lemass commenced, there have been repeated interruptions. I presume it is the right of every Deputy to speak without interruptions.

The Chair has repeatedly asked that there should not be interruptions.

I do not mind interruptions, but I object to childish ones.

We got an example of that yesterday.

If this is going to start, there will be a repetition of what happened the other day.

If Deputies want me to read out a dreary monotone statement of my views ——

On a point of order —I do not wish to interrupt Deputy Lemass; if I did in the past, I am sorry—I think that the Chair's attention should be drawn to the remark made by Deputy O'Grady, in which he threatened the Chair and the House by saying that, if certain events took place, we would have a repetition of what happened yesterday.

I do not think Deputy O'Grady used a threat. He merely indicated that if the interruptions continue, the situation which developed yesterday might very well develop to-day.

I do not know if the view of the Government is that the difference between the circumstances existing now and those that operated before the war justifies a more leisurely approach to industrial development than we thought necessary then. It is true that this Industrial Development Authority is not quite so ludicrous as the Tariff Commission which inspired it. The Fine Gael organisation has learned a little from its experience. The futility of the Tariff Commission, its deadening effect upon development, the criticism to which it was subjected, has all suggested to them the desirability of dressing it up a little and reintroducing it with some additional powers, giving it a new name. If there are any Deputies opposite who think this organisation has fundamentally any other purpose except that which inspired the creation of the Tariff Commission, they are much more naive than I think they are.

I do not know if I can convince this House that in this matter of industrial development there is no time to waste, no time for all this nonsense of setting up a body of people to examine at their leisure suggestions and proposals, and report thereon to the Minister, to take whatever action the Minister may ultimately decide is desirable upon their recommendation. We have here 11 per cent. of our industrial population unemployed. The papers the other day, reporting on certain statistics released from the International Labour Office, have said that Ireland is one of the few countries in Europe in which unemployment has fallen. It has fallen from, I think, 11.7 per cent. to 11.6 per cent., whereas in England, of course, it has risen from 1.2 per cent. to 1.3 per cent.

The Deputy ought to give the accurate figures.

An odd tenth of a point here or there will not make any difference. We have 11 per cent. of our industrial workers registered as unemployed on the labour exchanges. We have emigration continuing. The Minister himself referred to emigration in his statement on this Bill.

Yes, certainly.

We have the prospect that the whole economic situation here may deteriorate drastically after the year 1952. That is our zero hour. If we are going to do anything to strengthen the national economy, to repair the gaps in our industrial organisation, to get into a position in which we can balance our international trade, we have to do it, if we can, before 1952. There is no time to waste with industrial development authorities touring the country, inspecting factories, carrying out statistical surveys, preparing reports for the Minister. The Department of Industry and Commerce was established to do this job. It is the primary function of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, as set out in the Ministers and Secretaries Act. I do not think that this House should be satisfied to have one of its officers—that is what the Minister is— delegate this important function to a body nominated by him with which the Dáil can have no direct relationship.

If we are ever going to build up a national economy that can withstand the storms that are bound to arise in international trade, it has to be through industrial development. We spend a lot of time here discussing agriculture and the problems of agriculture. Nobody will deny the importance of agriculture to the nation now or in the future but, if we are ever going to end unemployment, it will not be through an expansion of agricultural production alone; it will be through an expansion of industrial activity.

Employment in agriculture is likely to go down.

Employment in agriculture could diminish even with considerable expansion in agricultural output.

If we are going to produce here conditions akin to full employment, if we are going to break the back of the unemployment problem that we have carried since the British days, it has to be through industrial development. That is as important a task as any that we faced during the emergency, building up our defence forces or building up our reserves to avoid scarcities during that period. We certainly did not think then that we had the leisure to set up commissions, authorities or boards to investigate and report before action was taken. Action was taken and, if it was found in the event that the action was capable of being improved, it was improved, but, at least, we drove ahead along the lines that we thought led to national security.

It is true that of the industrial development programme which we set before ourselves in 1932, which was elaborated to the Dáil then, a large part has been completed. I have said that the circumstances of those years were exceptionally difficult and certainly we buoyed ourselves up then with the expectation that whatever progress was possible in those circumstances would lead to much more rapid progress when more normal conditions reappeared in international trade.

Now, in the more favourable conditions of the post-war period, these pre-war industries are going ahead rapidly. Ministers are not reluctant to boast about the expansion in industrial output which has occurred since the end of the war. That expansion in industrial output took place in industries that existed before the war, nearly all of which were established against their opposition. It took place in the factories that were denounced here as the products of gombeen men, sweat shops, back-room shacks and the other terms that were applied to these factories from these benches when men who are now in ministerial office were speaking here. It represents the expansion in industrial output which we said then was possible, which we believed would come and which will continue if the atmosphere is favourable and if there is the necessary stimulus provided continuously from the Department of Industry and Commerce. But, do not have any doubt about the realities of our situation. Even though the over-all index of industrial production shows that we are now 40 per cent. above pre-war, nevertheless, there are many important industries that have not yet got back to the level of pre-war output. Of the 35 industries producing transportable goods listed in the Census of Industrial Production, not less than 13 have not yet recovered to the pre-war level of output.

The Minister said that of the goods that we imported in each of the past two years, £60,000,000 worth were capable of being manufactured here and that, if they were manufactured here, employment in industry would increase by 45,000. These figures may not be altogether reliable because, to some extent, imports, at least in 1948, were inflated in the process of ending the stock deficiencies which had resulted from the war and perhaps also because of price fluctuations but, it is nevertheless true that substantial industrial development representing employment for about 45,000 people on the basis of our home market is still possible. Any extension beyond that figure will depend either upon the expansion of the home market through a rise in the standard of living of our people or the development of export trade.

In 1948 the volume of our imports was higher than for many years but the volume of our exports was considerably below the average of the pre-war years. I know that Ministers, talking about conditions, boast of an expansion in the value of our exports. Such an expansion of value has taken place but because of the rise in prices the expansion in value conceals the contraction in volume. When we want to relate our production figures to employment and the possibilities of increasing employment it is the volume rather than the value of output and exports that matters.

I said something about the volume also.

It is true, however— and this is the fact which, I think, lends point to my remarks here—that by industrial development to the extent of supplying the home market with industrial products which can be made here and which are now imported we can end unemployment if the unemployment register is an accurate picture of our unemployment problem.

And you believe that?

No, if the Deputy presses me on that point I will have to express certain qualifications. I took the same viewpoint in 1932 at a time when the unemployment register was much the same as it is now and I said to myself: "If we can, by expanding industry, create new jobs for 60,000 or 70,000 people, unemployment will cease." We expanded industry to that extent and we created new jobs for 60,000 or 70,000 people, but as far as the unemployment register was concerned there was little change. There is, clearly, some number of workers who are unemployed, unemployed not in the ordinary sense of that term, who are not unemployed in the sense that entitles them to inclusion in the unemployment register but who, nevertheless, will be drawn out of their existing occupations, or their partial employment, into employment in industry if it becomes available, and they will possibly get that employment in preference to those on the unemployment register. A fundamental analysis of employment and unemployment in this country has never been fully attempted, but if we take our unemployment register as the measure of our problem we can say that we can put that number of people into jobs through industrial expansion. If that is so, should we not organise a Government Department and tell them to go ahead and concentrate on that and nothing else? Is that not a preferable course to putting up a commission in Merrion Square to report to the Minister?

If there is effective control I am 100 per cent. with you.

I sincerely believe that this commission will be an impediment to industrial development. I think that the impetus which was given to the industrial drive in the pre-war and immediate post-war years is still sufficient to carry it on if no unnecessary obstacles are created. There may be a lack of confidence that the present Government will stand over the need for protection if that should prove to be unpopular. It is true that the Government now declares its willingness to afford protection on a case stated subject to investigation by the commission but the popular belief is that the test of that willingness is popularity and that if it should prove unpopular in a particular case they will bow.

That statement is a useful contribution to industrial development.

It is up to the Minister to disprove it. I did not create it.

The Deputy did create it deliberately.

Industrial development is also impeded by the uncertain attitude of the Government to industrial profits. We have a private enterprise economy. You can change it if you like; you can decide to substitute for it a socialist State in which all industrial development will take place under State direction, but if you are not going to do that, if you are going to leave a private enterprise economy here and if you declare your intention of keeping it here, then you have got to allow it to function. Private enterprise works through the profit motive and if you remove the profit motive you stifle private enterprise. Is that not so? You cannot have the best of two worlds. You cannot proclaim your desire to prevent people engaged in industry from making profits, or create the impression that you intend to prevent them, and at the same time expect them to go ahead with the industrial drive. If you are not going to allow the profit motive to work you will either get stagnation or you must turn completely to State socialism.

I stated here in 1947 when we discussed this matter that we were not so much concerned with profits as with prices. I expressed it as my view that if there was an industry in this country producing goods and selling them at the same price as a British firm was selling goods of comparable quality in England I would be satisfied and would not bother to investigate what profits they were making. The real test is the price the people have to pay. If instead of having regard to that test of prices, we have regard only to the test of profits, we can get nowhere. These views of mine developed from experience. Under the first Prices Commission Act I set up, not a Prices Commission, but a Profits Commission, and I found myself often, under that Act, in the ridiculous position of cutting the profits of the firms which were selling the cheapest goods and sanctioning the much higher prices of other firms making no profit at all.

What about wages?

The wages were the same in all cases; it was a question of efficiency. There is not a Deputy in this House who does not know that it is frequently the case that large profits are made by the firms that sell at the lowest prices and that the firms who are unable to compete in price but try nevertheless to get their profits are those which almost inevitably end up with posters announcing a bankruptcy sale in their windows. Deputies can have any views on the matter; mine are on record.

Up Woolworths.

I do not know if the Deputy thinks that Woolworths and other large stores have an inflationary or other effect on prices. There may be social consequences from the development of multiple shops and chain stores, but one cannot deny that their effects have been to check rising prices or secure reductions in prices. There was a commission on retail trade in this country the report of which Deputy Davin might read.

Might I ask if the point which the Deputy is making is that there is no relation between just prices and profits?

No, Sir. The case I make is in relation to the function which the State should exercise in this regard. I said here when I was Minister that as far as I was concerned if a firm was making goods in this country and selling them at the same price as a firm which was making the same goods was selling them in Britain I was satisfied and would not bother to investigate, but that if the firm was not producing goods at comparable rates, if the price at which it sold here was higher than the price of similar goods sold in Great Britain, then, even if there was no profit, I would investigate it to satisfy myself that there was no inefficiency capable of being remedied or other unnecessary costs inflating their prices.

What about excess profits duty?

This Industrial Development Authority is going to investigate the operation of protective tariffs. For what purpose? Is it going on a hunt after profits? Is it going to decide that the firm should be penalised which is making profits, even though it is producing goods of good quality and selling them at a price reasonable in relation to the price of similar goods sold in other countries, or is it going to hunt down the firms which are inefficient and, because they are inefficient, are unduly costly in their operation? If it finds either one or the other, if it finds a firm making high profits or selling at high prices, what is it going to do about it?

Under this Bill, there is no possible function it could have in that respect.

Paragraph 6 of Section 3 puts upon this Industrial Development Authority the function of investigating the effects of protective measures, with special reference to employment, prices, the quality of the goods, wage levels and conditions of employment, and if it finds out in its investigation into the effect of protective measures that there are firms not as efficient as they should be or firms which are, although selling at a reasonable price, making high profits, what is it going to do about it? That is the whole problem of prices and profit regulation.

I dealt with this matter in a Bill I introduced in 1947, a Bill which got beheaded during the general election— the Industrial Efficiency and Prices Bill. During the election, I was attacked by the Fine Gael Party because I introduced it and would not promise to withdraw it, and I was attacked by the Labour Party on the grounds that I was going to withdraw it. Then these Parties combined and killed the Bill.

You favoured Guiney during the general election.

The Deputy should not have made that remark.

He gave you £50,000 towards the general election.

I stated in column 732 of Volume 108:—

"...the Government always have the power to withdraw protection in any individual case. That is precisely the difficulty of the situation. If, in an industry needing protection, there are some inefficient and some efficient units, then it would be wrong to penalise the efficient ones in order to eliminate the inefficient."

I continued:—

"...the withdrawal of necessary protection which might mean the termination of activity in the industry would penalise others than the proprietors. It would probably deprive of their employment the workers in the industry who could not of their own power remedy the matters which were the subject of complaint. It is in the hope that it may be possible to apply effective sanctions to secure the growth of industrial efficiency, other than the withdrawal of protective duties, that Section 51 was framed."

That Bill was supported by the Labour Party, let it be said to their credit, but was opposed by Fine Gael. It represented the culmination of a very considerable experience in attempts to devise reasonable safeguards for the public dealing with protected industries, while at the same time avoiding unnecessary impediments to the growth of these industries. It is merely a nuisance to establish an authority with power to investigate when nothing can follow their investigation, except a report to the Minister, and where the Minister, even if the case is grave enough to justify action by him, can do nothing except withdraw the protection, a course he will never take, because the consequence of the unemployment he will create and the trade dislocation that will follow, will always intimidate him.

A most amazing statement.

The commission can give advice to industrialists. I wish the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Fine Gael Deputies sitting behind him would read the speeches they made on the Efficiency and Prices Bill, which contained a somewhat similar although a more sensible suggestion. They scoffed at the idea of civil servants advising businessmen how to do their business. We had in that Bill a scheme to secure the improvement and the efficiency of industry by affording technical advice, but we did not stop at that. We had provisions to——

On a point of order. A remark was made by Deputy O'Leary. Is it going on the records of the House?

The country knows it. It can go on any record.

I did not hear any remark made.

The remark was made that Guiney gave the Minister £50,000 during the election. Is that to go on the records of the House?

It is a remark that should not have been made, but I can hardly consider it disorderly. Political remarks are not disorderly and people must not be thin skinned in regard to political observations.

Then this House is to be left as a slander machine?

Deputy Allen will not get away with that statement. The Chair will protect anybody who is slandered. Deputy Allen will withdraw that statement.

That is most unreasonable. We all heard the statement made by Deputy O'Leary.

Mr. de Valera

It was a slander; it was a slanderous statement.

This House is not the place to decide what is a slander or not. But Deputy Allen said this House is being used as a slander machine and I will not allow that statement to be made. It must be withdrawn.

If the Chair is going to enforce order on this side of the House, it should enforce it on the other side, too.

That is another statement that should not be made.

It is perfectly true.

The Chair cannot pretend that it did not hear the statement. It was heard by everybody in the House.

I did not hear it—the statement made by Deputy O'Leary. I would not consider it disorderly.

Mr. de Valera

Is it not a fact that there are slanderous statements made here against people outside as well as against people here and there is no means by which they can be refuted or dealt with, and is it not a matter for ordinary decency that these statements should not be made?

Most of them come from your side of the House. The men who make them are sitting beside you.

I quite agree with Deputy de Valera that these statements should not be made, but to say that this House can decide what is a slanderous statement or what is not, is taking on the function of another place. Deputy Allen said that the House is being used as a slander machine. He will have to withdraw that statement.

I want to make a representation to you. If this House is the medium by which individuals outside the House are slandered, would I be wrong in saying that this House was being used as a slander machine?

Slander is a very definite thing and this House is not competent to decide what is a slander. The statement that I was told was made by Deputy O'Leary, if made, should not have been made. I will not allow any Deputy to say that the Chair is allowing the House to be used as a slander machine. I ask Deputy Allen to withdraw it.

You have already said you did not hear the statement, although every member in the House heard it.

Is the Deputy charging me with telling a lie?

No, I am not.

Deputy Allen will withdraw the statement or leave the House.

I will leave the House.

Deputy Allen then withdrew.

Is there going to be any action with regard to the threat to the Chair made by Deputy Lemass?

For God's sake be sensible.

Will there be any action taken by the House with regard to it?

I am not aware that Deputy Lemass made any threat to the Chair.

Very well. I accept your ruling always.

Mr. de Valera

There is no power outside this House to deal with slanders made here. Now, there is not any doubt whatsoever, and there is not a Deputy in the House who does not know it, that there are slanderous statements made here from time to time, and, if these slanderous statements can be made in this House, is it unfair or a wrong interpretation to say that the House is being used by the individuals who make use of the facilities and the protection and the immunity given here, to get away with such slanders?

On a point of order, I would bring to the notice of the Chair that, in the statement of the Leader of the Opposition, there is implied a threat against the ruling of the Chair.

The Leader of the Opposition has made a general statement. The Ceann Comhairle stated yesterday that such statements as the Leader of the Opposition has referred to should not be made, that they were unwise and should not be made. The statement which I was told by a member of the House was made should not have been made, if it was made. Now, with respect to slander, slander has a very definite meaning and this House, as I have said, is not competent to say what is slander. I cannot allow any Deputy to say that this House is being used as a slander machine. The matter cannot be argued further.

On a point of order, may I draw your attention to the fact that this is the third occasion inside two days on which three members of the Opposition Party, when requested by the Chair to withdraw remarks, left the House rather than withdraw them?

That is not a point of order. They have obeyed the ruling of the Chair. Deputy Lemass on the Bill.

Mr. de Valera

May I ask one question? I think it is very important that we should have order in this House and that every member in the House should try and help the Chair in the maintenance of order. On the question of slander, if the Chair thinks that a remark is made which ought not to be made, has the Chair no power to give redress? If, for instance, there is a remark which will be regarded by those to whom it is addressed as slanderous because there are certain imputations in it, and if the Chair feels that the remark ought not to have been made, has the Chair no power in the matter?

The Chair exercises the power reposed in it by the House. The Chair is the custodian of order in the House, and if any Deputy makes a disorderly remark the Chair has certain powers. The Chair is the sole authority of order.

Mr. de Valera

My question is a simple one. I am anxious, in the interests of order in this House, to try to get some way of dealing with this. If statements of this sort are made which I know to be untrue, I, anyhow, would regard them as slanderous. When these statements are made, and the Chair thinks they ought not to be made, surely it is possible for the Chair to get these statements stopped or withdrawn.

The Chair has exercised that function.

The Deputy is now attacking the Chair.

Deputy Lemass on the Bill.

I have described this Industrial Development Authority as the Tariff Commission resurrected. The same procedure will, I am sure, have the same results. We will have the same queues of applicants for tariffs or for other forms of Government help standing in the dock and pleading to be allowed to get on with their work and to give employment with the whole burden of proof upon them and the Minister for Industry and Commerce excusing himself from the obligation of doing anything to help them until they have been cleared by this commission or authority. The only practical result of the enactment of this Bill is that responsibility for industrial development in this country is being transferred from the Minister for Industry and Commerce to this board.

We always argued here that the Minister for Industry and Commerce had, in relation to industry, the function of leadership. It is that function that is being surrendered. I do not think it will make a great deal of difference when the Minister is a member of Fine Gael, but I would like those other Deputies of other Parties who might support this Bill to understand precisely what is happening.

That is slander.

If the Deputy is offering a legal opinion I do not want it.

I am referring to the opinion of your leader.

Deputy O'Higgins should restrain himself and make his own speech when his turn comes.

To the extent that there is any function left in the Department of Industry and Commerce in relation to industry, clearly there seems to be overlapping. Will the Minister clarify for me the exact distinction between the functions of this authority to collect statistics about industrial capital, employment and shareholding, and the work of the Central Statistics Office which is now attached to the Office of the Taoiseach? He told the Dáil last week that the project of establishing a nitrogenous fertiliser industry was being examined by the Industrial Development Authority. In 1947 we enacted legislation to set up a State company called Ceimici Teoranta specifically charged with that task. Where is the line to be drawn between the functions of the Industrial Development Authority in that industrial field and this organisation already set up to plan and prepare for the establishment of that industry?

There is a line of demarcation.

There is not any. This is just a fifth wheel being added to the coach.

You said that before on another occasion.

This fifth wheel has a brake on it—did I say that before— and the coach has no horse and the driver does not know where he is going.

No one could run it like Johnny.

Not at all. Others could run too. They do not all run in the same direction. However, the Industrial Authority has been there for a year. I want the House to know the extraordinary procedure which has been adopted by the Government in relation to this particular commission. Normally, when a Government wants to set up a board, a commission, an authority or anything else it comes to the House with proposals for legislation relating to it. It argues in favour of its proposals and gets them enacted by the Oireachtas, and then, having got the legal authority, it proceeds to implement them. In this particular case the coach came before the horse. The Industrial Development Authority was established by administrative act and 12 months later the legal authority for its functioning is being sought. The result of that procedure has created this difficulty for the Minister that he must come to the House not with a proposal to set up the Industrial Development Authority but with a proposal to set up an authority which will consist of named persons. I have no desire to discuss these individuals or to make any reference to their suitability for this post, but I would be fully entitled to do it under the terms of the Bill.

You did it before.

That is a consequence of the procedure followed by the Minister. The Dáil is not being asked merely to approve of an Industrial Development Authority but it is being asked to approve of Dr. Beddy, Mr. Kevin McCourt, Mr. Luke J. Duffy and Mr. J.J. Walsh. Does any Deputy think that is reasonable? Does the Minister think that is a proper procedure to follow? Does he think that it is fair to put on the members of the Dáil the onus of approving not merely his proposal to establish the authority but also to approve of the particular individuals whom he has picked to constitute it?

I am not opposed to the Bill merely because these individuals constitute the authority. I am opposed to the Bill in principle and, whatever views I may have about the individuals, I do not propose to express them. But, in fairness to them and to anyone else who may be now or who may in the future become associated with this Industrial Development Authority, I want them to understand that my opposition and the opposition of Deputies on this side of the House to the whole idea in this Bill is fundamental and that at the earliest possible occasion we will terminate it.

There is no fear of it.

I do not want the individuals concerned to feel that, in taking action to terminate it, we are animated by any hostility to themselves as individuals. Our hostility is to this Bill and to the principle of it. It may be that the Minister will remain in office and that these people will continue to carry out his functions for him; but, if ever that situation ceases and the Party on this side of the House becomes the Government, the functions of the Minister for Industry and Commerce will be resumed by whoever is nominated to that post and these subsidiary bodies will cease.

I have no doubt of that and I know the reason for it.

So far as I am concerned, that is on the record and it is known to the people nominated to this authority and to anyone who at any time may become connected with it.

Mr. S. Collins interrupted.

The good manners which Deputy Collins occasionally displays in this House not infrequently desert him. I have spoken on this Bill to express a point of view that I am entitled to express. It is a point of view which I have frequently expressed and, in opposing this Bill, I am opposing the same outlook on industrial development which I have opposed in this Dáil for 25 years. If that viewpoint, and the expression of it which is in this Bill, is foisted on the country again, then those who do it will have to take full responsibility for the consequences, and the consequences in the 1950's will be no different from what they were in the 1920's.

You say that in order to destroy confidence; that is the sole purpose of it.

The incoherent, uncorrelated efforts of Deputy Lemass are far from impressive to-day. I know perfectly well, and I think most Deputies on this side of the House know perfectly well, the reason for the semi-hysterical opposition of Deputy Lemass to this measure, because now the cool eye of scrutiny is going to be addressed to many of the ventures that he might have hoped to sponsor and the country is going to get an opportunity of planning a reasoned, well-ordered, industrial development. What Deputy Lemass finds fault with finds favour with me, and that is the idea that many of these functions will not be transitory and that the Industrial Authority, irrespective of the Minister, will be in a position to plan in a sensible way, having analysed the prospects of the industries that are proposed to be developed, I want to say to Deputy Lemass that we on this side of the House are under no illusions now as to what was once described as his ability.

Many ugly monuments rear their heads in this country as gaunt evidence of his complete inefficiency.

Deputy Lemass's efficiency or inefficiency does not arise on this Bill.

Let him blow away.

You are not able to blow.

I shall speak to the Bill when my time comes.

I correlate my remarks to the measure in this way: that we are discussing, and are entitled to discuss, I submit to the Chair, the rather inept approach to industry which existed and which is now being corrected in this Bill. I say in a very serious way that, whatever the personnel of the Industrial Authority may be, this House should approve in principle of the basis on which it is built. Haphazard planning of industry in a small country that is fundamentally agricultural is very dangerous. There is nobody more opposed than I am to building up within any type of a wall of protection industries that are ultimately going to prove uneconomic. I think, even though there may be impatience initially, that it is wiser for the Government to direct the Industrial Authority to make proper and exhaustive investigations into the potential of an industry before the State is committed to it, because, if we start industries in this country, it is our duty to give them every reasonable chance of success consistent with the industries producing a reasonable commodity at a reasonable price and giving reasonable facilities to their workers.

I think that we have an infinitely better chance under an independent, autonomous authority, such as the authority envisaged is, to arrive at that result. Far from shelving responsibility, as Deputy Lemass in his vain utterings would have led us to believe the Minister was doing, he is assuming his own responsibility and delegating the task to people who will not have the complexity of a Department to manage and who will be able to come back, having had a considered deliberation on problems, and give him, in his capacity as Minister, the benefit of that exhaustive inquiry and that deliberation. That is what I regard as good common sense. Would that Deputy Lemass in his period of office as Minister had learned the lesson, where he was not competent or all-knowledgeable himself, that he should have gone to others who knew more of the subject and who might have guided him a lot more wisely.

The principal political prophets who sit on the front Opposition Benches gave it as their opinion when this Government came into office that it would not last three months or six months; certainly that it would not last 12 months. But we have now passed the two years limit and, to my mind, after listening carefully and attentively, that is the real reason why we have had to listen to the peevish, jealous-minded speech of Deputy Lemass. The speech of Deputy Lemass —I do not say this because I agree with the Minister—is going to create more suspicion in the minds of our suspicious-minded industrialists During the first year this Government was in office, we had a good deal of propaganda throughout the country in speeches delivered by Deputy Lemass and other leaders of the Opposition in which the same kind of argument was put across to the people, and to the industrialists in particular, for the purpose of creating a lack of confidence and suspicion in their minds in an effort to induce them to keep whatever money they had in their pockets and to hold on to their profits rather than expand further and develop the industries.

That was the sole purpose of the speech to-day.

You can take that line if you like, but I am entitled to explain my own motives.

There is no doubt the speech will have that effect. The fact of the matter is that this Government and the present Minister for Industry and Commerce after two short years in office can now stand up here and, notwithstanding that dangerous propaganda, prove from statistics that 25,000 more people are employed in industry to-day than were employed in it when they came into office. That is something for which they can claim credit. That is something Deputy Lemass cannot deny. If, as has been stated, there are two and a half times the number of people employed in industry to-day as compared with 1926 that is a matter for congratulation. It is a matter for congratulation for this Government, for the previous Government and the industrialists. I give all of them a fair share of credit and they are entitled to credit for their very creditable performance.

I believe that the great majority of the industrialists are both decent citizens and good employers. I believe they should get every encouragement to use whatever capital they have at their disposal to develop the existing industries and to help in the creation of more industries for the employment of our citizens.

I know there is a fundamental difference as between the line of approach of Deputy Lemass to this matter and that of the present Government. There is not only a difference in the line of approach to this, but there is also a difference in the line of approach to many other matters. Deputy Lemass said, and I challenge the accuracy of his statement, that the work that has been done, the work that is being done, and the work that will be done by the new development authority has already been effectively carried out by the Department of Industry and Commerce. Deputy de Valera knows that in the long period in which he was in office, particularly when he first came into office, members of this group waited upon him repeatedly and urged upon him the desirability of creating what was described as an economic council. In my opinion this is the nearest approach to that council advocated by the Labour Party for many years. The Labour Party made the establishment of such a council one of its main objectives. In my opinion this development authority is an economic council. Yet, Deputy Lemass described it here in the House to-day as a "commission" in an effort to degrade the particular body in the eyes of those who may be interested in its activities.

In every argument with Deputy de Valera on these deputations to which I have referred, his whole fear in creating such a council was that it might give rise to friction inside the Civil Service amongst senior civil servants. I am glad that the present Minister and his colleagues have decided in their wisdom to issue warrants to the members of this authority in order to make it possible for them to carry out their activities without being subjected to Civil Service procedure. This body will be an autonomous body. No one would suggest that it should be a sort of super Cabinet. The collective responsibility of the Government must be maintained in regard to an authority of this kind. But it is nevertheless the nearest approach to the type of council that has been advocated so often by us.

Deputy Lemass's method of developing industry and protecting industry is on record. Deputy de Valera cannot deny it. His method was to pick out five or six political supporters or senior civil servants and give them all the power. He did that in Córas Iompair Éireann. We see the result now. Of course, the present Opposition will not express its regret for the result of establishing that transport dictatorship. Undoubtedly, Deputy Lemass took a very highly efficient and highly respected civil servant out of the Department of Industry and Commerce and made him chairman of five or six semi-State boards. There is a fundamental difference in the policy adopted by Deputy Lemass, under the leadership of Deputy de Valera, and the policy adopted by the present Government. In a democratic way this Bill proposes to establish the nearest approach we have yet had to an economic council. When Deputy Lemass came to the House with the Transport Bill of 1944, Deputy de Valera decided to have a general election when he was defeated by three votes on that measure. He went to Arus an Uachtaráin and decided to go to the country.

To what Bill is the Deputy referring now?

I wonder does he keep awake during any portion of his normal hours of sleeping thinking over what he did on that occasion?

I am asking the Deputy to what Bill he is referring?

I am referring to the fundamental difference in the direct line of approach.

I am asking the Deputy a direct question. To what Bill is he referring?

I am referring to the——

To the Transport Bill.

To the Industrial Development Authority Bill.

I do not think that was the Bill to which the Deputy was referring a moment ago.

Deputy Lemass said that this Bill was a typical product of the Fine Gael mind. If that was the mind of the Fine Gael Party, some of whom are not now members of this House, at some particular period of the history of this House, well and good. We have now new minds and new men. There is a changing outlook to meet the changing circumstances of changing times. Times are always changing. What is wrong with that? Deputy de Valera changed his mind on more than one occasion. He even changed his economic policy. Nobody accused him of doing anything criminal when he did so. A politician of his astuteness and ability is entitled to change his mind just as he changed the name of his Party.

Mr. de Valera

Ours is the one Party whose name has never changed.

Deputy Lemass is a very able man and a very able speaker. Like other members of the Opposition I suppose he is, too, a fairly able bluffer when he is allowed to get away with it. He accused Fine Gael Ministers of doing lip service to industrial development. When he thinks over the Bill seriously I suggest that he will appreciate that this Government, at any rate, is doing something more than lip service. A certain amount of work has already been done by the members of this Industrial Development Authority. I think the Minister might give us some further information about it. The fact that 25,000 more people are in industrial employment now as compared with 1946 surely shows something more than lip-service, particularly to those who are now in receipt of good wages as a result of that employment and are no longer faced with the grim alternative of a sailing ticket to some other country in an effort to find work elsewhere.

Where are they gone off the land?

During the lifetime of the Government with which the eloquent Deputy was associated the number of people employed on the land was reduced by 50,000.

And 60,000 more have gone in the last two years.

Deputy Lemass says this is not the time for nonsense. I suggest that is a very unfair remark. Apparently the nonsense consists of the fact that members of this Industrial Authority will be entitled, if they so please, to tour the country. When industries were being established under the Fianna Fáil régime, I suggest, and I can name some of the cases to prove it, that the places where these industries were directed to were not in all cases the most suitable places for the establishment of these industries. Is there any greater monument to the lack of sound thinking, to the lack of common sense and to where politics came into play than the proposal to establish one of the beet factories at Tuam—an area where the people in the locality refused to grow the beet to support the industry that was sent there, as it is suggested, for political reasons. Deputy Corry knows that better than any Deputy in this House. A big percentage of the beet required to prop up the Tuam beet factory comes from the constituency which I have the honour to represent and from part of the constituency which is represented by the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

It is a very small percentage.

It is irrelevant to the debate.

I am trying to make the point that if you had a body in existence when a project of that kind was being undertaken—a body such as the Industrial Development Authority which would do some thinking on common-sense lines and altogether apart from political circumstances—the factory which is in Tuam would not have been established there but would have been established in an area where there would be an economic supply of the commodity essential to enable the factory to carry on.

I am aware of another instance of an attempt which was made by the Cabinet—Deputy de Valera knows all about this—to direct the establishment of what is now one of our principal industries. I am glad to say that it is a most successful industry in one of the principal towns in my constituency. A direction was given to send the promoters to one of the seven towns west of the Shannon to investigate a town where they had not at the time enough men, women and children to make up the number of people who would be required for the labour associated with the industry. Deputy de Valera knows about that particular case.

Mr. de Valera

I do not. I would be glad to hear more about that.

I would ask him then, when he has some spare time, to inquire from his two Fianna Fáil representatives of the same constituency as I represent if it is a fact that the case went back to the Cabinet at the instigation of the promoters who were entitled to have their say as to the most suitable place for the establishment of an industry and, on the representations of his own two colleagues who represent the constituency of Laoighis-Offaly, the Cabinet reversed their decision.

Mr. de Valera

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy. Let him make his speech.

The people of Tullamore know it.

I am making the point to prove to Deputy de Valera, if anything can satisfy him in regard to matters of this kind, that you require a body such as the Industrial Development Authority or an economic council for this important work. I know Fianna Fáil did not like the title of the proposal at the time and that they turned it down because the senior civil servants would sulk and kick up a row about it. I am very glad that the Minister for Industry and Commerce and his colleagues had the very good sense to establish such a body under a different title with the same power to do better work for the development of industry than was done by those who looked at the establishment of industry during the Fianna Fáil Administration from a purely political and partisan point of view.

In saying that, I do not want to deprive Deputy Lemass of all the credit he claims and of all the credit that is due to him for the energetic work which he did as Minister for Industry and Commerce in the Fianna Fáil Government. I am prepared to give credit to everybody who is entitled to it and certainly not to deprive for political reasons Deputy de Valera and his colleagues of their fair share of the credit that is due to them. I would point out, however, that they are not doing anything creditable by putting up Deputy Lemass in this House and having him make the kind of destructive criticism which he made on this Bill this afternoon.

I sincerely hope that industrialists will put whatever money they have and what profits they made out of their industries in the past into the development, if possible, of the existing industries. We have, in this country, a most peculiar position, as the Minister pointed out. I do not know whether the same position exists in any other English-speaking country but there is £150 per head of the population invested outside this country without the authority of the people who control that money. That money is so devoted with the best of intentions by our farmers and our industrialists. Our farmers, in particular, think that the safest place to put their money is in the banks of this country at 1 per cent. or ¾ per cent. When they do that, they are giving authority to the so-called Irish banks to reinvest the money wherever they can get a return of 3 per cent., 4 per cent. and 5 per cent. for it outside their own country. Deputy Corry laughs. I do not think he is a student of figures and he may not know that £400,000,000 of our hard-earned money—mostly money that was earned by our hard-working farmers, farmers' sons, agricultural labourers, industrialists and their workers—is lying on deposit in this country.

How does the Deputy relate that to the business before the House?

I join with the Minister in appealing to the people who, thinking they are acting wisely, are putting their money on deposit into the banks of this country to think again and to support the policy of this Government in establishing industries with Irish money—industries by which Irishmen and Irishwomen will lay the foundation for the complete economic freedom of this country, because that is what we are doing. If the people who have put their money on deposit into our banks will think again and remember that they are asked by the Industrial Development Authority, with the authority of the Government, to provide money locally for the establishment of industries that are waiting to be established, they will make their contribution to the establishment of new industries that will provide employment for their sons and daughters in the future and, in addition, they will probably receive a decent and a better return for their money than the 1 per cent. and ¾ per cent. they are getting from the banks of this country to-day.

For some time past I have observed that the speeches delivered in this House by Deputies on the Government Benches fall into either of two categories, namely, eulogy or criticism—eulogy of what has been done by the Government since it came into office and criticism of everything that was done by the previous Administration. We have heard speeches in praise of what has been done by the Minister for Agriculture, by the Minister for Health, by the Minister for External Affairs and so on. In an approach like that it is difficult to give any reasoned examination to any measure that comes before the House no matter from what side.

The Junior takes over.

It would be better if Deputy Collins would try to behave himself.

We are taking no notice of you.

Let me warn Deputy Collins that the Chair has taken very serious notice of interruptions.

I made no interruptions, good, bad or indifferent.

If Deputy Collins interrupts me again I shall answer him with some of his own ammunition.

It would be well if Deputy Lynch would not make false statements.

Does the Deputy want to make another speech?

You are not worth interrupting.

The Chair.

To criticise one side and to eulogise another side is not a reasoned approach to any measure or debate in this House. I do the best I can even though I may not be taken notice of in certain respects. Deputy Lemass said that the objection to the setting up of the Industrial Development Authority was an objection in principle. Having regard to the record of this Government in certain respects I think it is only just that I should advance one reason for this objection in principle. Since this Government came into power we have had a commission on emigration, a promise of a council of education, health councils, a committee on flour and bread subsidies. Now we are promised a commission to examine the licensing laws and another commission in regard to rent control. It is a saga of "passing the buck", such an instance of "passing the buck" as has never been known under any Administration, not only in this country but in any other country. Ministers when they assume office surely assume responsibility for the administration of their own Departments. If this is going to continue, the time will come when the necessity to have a Minister responsible to this House will not arise at all because we can apply to various commissions, committees and authorities for information on any aspect of administration. I think the time has come when Ministers must be made to bear their own responsibilities for their own particular Departments.

Irrespective of this objection in principle, I should like to refer to a few aspects of the Bill to which I personally would object. The functions of the authority as set out in paragraph 3 are, I think, sufficiently wide to enable that authority to function properly, if it ever does come to function. In Section 4 there is at least one sub-section which, I think, is rather dangerous as it impliedly gives power to the members of the authority to invest moneys in any industry or undertaking of which they approve or suggest to the Minister should be established. Apart altogether from the constitution of the present authority—and I have no comment to offer on the integrity of the members who constitute the Industrial Development Authority—I suggest that it is a rather serious thing to allow people to investigate the establishment of industries and at the same time allow them to invest money in these industries. The men who are now appointed to this body are men of integrity. If they have money to invest they are not going to invest it, I am sure, to the prejudice of any outside interest, but I would suggest seriously that they should be able to examine every particular proposal impartially and dispassionately and without having any interest in it themselves. If it is going to be beneficial to the State and to industrial expansion in the State let us have it, but if the members of this authority are going to be allowed to exercise their functions to advance their own interests, I think it is a very dangerous precedent to establish. Pay them, certainly, to a high standard so as to render investments by themselves in these industries unnecessary. I think that is at least one sub-section that should not appear in the Bill.

Another very objectionable part of the Bill appears in Section 5, which allows the authority to summon evidence and to impose penalties for the non-production of documents or the non-appearance of witnesses who have been summoned. We have spoken here frequently about democracy and about our adherence to the principles of democracy, but this is a direct approach to a system of totalitarianism such as has never been imposed on this State. I submit that it is a usurpation of the functions of the judicature to allow a body of men set up under this Bill power to summon citizens to appear before them, to examine their private documents and to reveal to the public their interests in a particular industry. If they do not produce these documents, or if they do not appear themselves before the authority, they are liable to a fine of £50. I think that is another dangerous precedent and another section which should be deleted from the Bill.

Deputy Davin drew a distinction between the semi-State controlled bodies that are operating in this country and this particular authority but I think that Deputy Davin did not appreciate the real distinction between them. Industries with which this authority is going to be concerned will not necessarily be industries in which the State will have a direct interest. Men have been appointed in the past from within the Civil Service to executive positions on the boards of semi-State bodies and it is only right and proper that when a considerable amount of State money is put into such companies, the State, either through a Minister or through its civil servants should have direct control over the expenditure of moneys for the expansion of whatever industries are operated under these controlled bodies.

A one-man control.

Whether through one man or through a number of civil servants, the State has still control but the distinction between such bodies and this authority is that this authority will have functions in respect of private individuals and private interests. It will have functions in respect to moneys that are in no way the property of the State, moneys belonging to individuals who should not be in any way controlled by the State in regard to the utilisation of these moneys in particular investments.

There is one other aspect that occurs to me in registering my objection to the Bill. For several years past a particular section in the Department of Industry and Commerce—I think the Minister called it the Trade and Industries Branch—has been operating, I suggest most successfully. The civil servants who form that particular branch of the Department must, at this stage, have acquired a degree of knowledge in regard to industry and all that goes with it, such knowledge as would enable them to perform adequately themselves within the Civil Service whatever functions we are now purporting to give this Industrial Development Authority. For one thing, the appointment of individuals from outside to control this work must be objectionable to civil servants because it will close an avenue of promotion to many civil servants who must now be regarded as experts in that particular branch. These civil servants are now going to be the staff of the Industrial Development Authority and this avenue of promotion is now going to be closed to them. I suggest it is unfair to men who entered the Civil Service many years ago, who were appointed to the Department of Industry and Commerce and who became expert in this work, to find a possible avenue of promotion now being blocked to them by legislation of this House.

As regards the particular members of the authority mentioned in the Bill, the Minister said they have long practical experience of industry. That may be so and I hope that in the exercise of their functions they will use that experience in the best possible manner. I suggest again that it is a dangerous precedent to allow men appointed by the Minister to this authority to have control over the expenditure of moneys in the establishment of industries that are being contemplated by private individuals. It is a continuation of a principle which has been adopted by this Government of setting up outside bodies to control administration, relieving Ministers of responsibilities which they should themselves retain. If for no other reason, I am opposing the Bill on these grounds.

The Minister, in recommending this measure to the favourable consideration of the House, availed of the opportunity to give a brief but fairly comprehensive survey of the extent to which industrial development has progressed since the achieving of control over our own affairs in this part of the country. Deputy Lemass, I should have thought, would similarly have availed of the opportunity to survey the same period and the same sphere from his Party's point of view. Unfortunately, whether wilfully or because he was provoked by interruption, Deputy Lemass was deflected from that critical survey which many of us would have liked to have heard. This is supposed to be a deliberative Assembly and it has been borne in on the minds of many of us who are newcomers to this House that it is almost impossible to get the work of the nation done here without reference to the bitterness that exists between the two major Parties. We are not sent here to satisfy personal bitternesses or pay off old scores. We are sent here to do the people's business.

The main trend of Deputy Lemass's criticism of the Bill was (a) that it was motivated by a desire on the part of one of the Parties forming the inter-Party Government to impede industrial development, that it was their Bill, and (b) that it would prevent the hitherto efficient Trade and Industries Branch of the Department from functioning properly. If we in Clann na Poblachta thought that this was a Bill to impede industrial development, we would not support it, but there is nothing in the Bill to support that allegation. It was noticeable that, throughout the whole course of his speech of over an hour, Deputy Lemass who talked about everything under the sun that was even faintly relevant, never once referred to the terms of this measure. I suggest that if Deputy Lemass had confined himself to the terms of the Bill, he would realise that there is nothing in it which would substantiate for even five seconds most of the charges he made against it.

Imprimis, his complaint was that the Bill was a measure whereby the Minister divested himself and the Government of their function to direct and encourage industrial development. There is nothing in this Bill that bears out that contention. It does not leave the Minister or the Government with one with less power or authority to take steps in this regard, apart altogether from anything done by the Industrial Development Authority; but being sane, reasonable, intelligent and sensible people, I presume they feel that they have set up a body which will assist them in more expeditiously doing that work and it is farcical and unworthy of Deputy Lemass to suggest that this Bill is an effort—to use the phrase used by either Deputy Lynch or Deputy Lemass—on the part of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to “pass the buck”. I cannot see one single section, sub-section or line of this Bill that bears out that argument. Criticism was made that it was purely a Fine Gael Bill. I do not know whence the idea originally emanated. I know that we in Clann na Poblachta were pressing for the setting up of some authority similar to this, from the time we agreed to take part in the inter-Party Government, and I know that the first the Dáil heard of this Bill or the setting up of the Industrial Development Authority was in response to a question addressed by me to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, asking that some such body be set up—and I can assure the Deputies opposite that it was not an inspired question.

With Deputy Lemass's strictures on what he describes as the old Fine Gael or Cumann na Gaedheal mentality on industrial development I find myself in agreement. I think that the work done by Deputy Lemass in the first three, four or five years that he was in office as Minister for Industry and Commerce was very necessary work and that it was a good job for this nation that that work was done. We are not so small on these benches that we cannot concede to our opponents credit where credit is due, but that is something that seems to be completely foreign to the Fianna Fáil approach to any measure that is discussed in this House.

What does this Bill seem to do? It proposes that the already cumbersome and overburdened—and, therefore, dilatory—Department of Industry and Commerce be relieved of, or assisted in, some of the work that it was hitherto expected to do. I was amazed to hear the case made here this evening by Deputy Lemass that the Department now was shorn of all its functions, that there was no further necessity for it and that there was a vast horde of civil servants there left with absolutely nothing to do. Did anyone ever hear such nonsense? Does not every intelligent, thinking Deputy, and every intelligent citizen, know that one of the reasons this Department has been subjected to criticism—quite properly, in my opinion—was because the volume of work it had to cope with was such that delays were inevitably associated with the Department?

The setting up of a board of four people and an autonomous authority of this nature is, to my mind, a step in the direction of sane, constructive, industrial development, one calculated to do what, I think, Arthur Griffith expressed as giving Ireland an industrial as well as an agricultural arm. It is a Gilbertian situation when a measure such as this, introduced for the purpose of avoiding delay in the consideration of, say, applications for tariffs, a measure calculated to facilitate and expedite sane, planned, industrial development, is attacked on the grounds that it is merely an attempt to put an anchor on one of the wheels of the cart. I am not going to follow Deputy Lemass into the realm of cocktail metaphor that he brought to the Dáil for a while. First of all, he told us that we were trying a horse round the machine and that the cart had no wheels and it was only a few minutes afterwards we were told this was a fifth wheel and that the fifth wheel was a brake. I am not attempting to score debating points—in case Deputies opposite may think I am.

An ordinary, reasoned approach to this measure forces one inevitably to the conclusion that, to put it at its least, it is worth giving this method of dealing with many questions that arise in connection with industrial expansion at least a reasonable trial. Deputy Lemass sought to derogate the status of the new body to that of a commission. I cannot see how he considers this to be a commission. There is an analogy for the setting up of anonymous authorities to do specific tasks in the national field. I am sure there are many Deputies who are cognisant of the tremendous work that was done in America when the Government there, if you like to use Deputy Lynch's phrase, "passed the buck" to the T.V.A.—the Tennesse Valley Authority. There is nothing inherently wrong in selecting the right people to do the job, at the same time retaining governmental responsibility and control over them, saying: "Here is a job we want you to do, will you do it?" There is no question of the Minister or the Government abdicating their functions and irresponsibly saying: "It depends on you now, we have no further responsibility in the matter." If the attempt is made to make that case, I cannot find anything in the Bill to support it, not even for five seconds.

It would be very easy—particularly for those of us who would consider ourselves advocates of the pursuit of a vigorous industrialisation policy—to be led into unsound generalisations. I praised—and will, on any occasion that I think it is necessary, praise—the work that was done in the first four or five years that Fianna Fáil were in office; but I am not to be taken as saying that now, in the light of experience, it would be impossible to point to mistakes. There were mistakes, grievous mistakes. It was necessarily an indiscriminate policy—probably due to the exigencies of the time and the circumstances, it had to be an indiscriminate policy—of protection. However, that does not elevate that indiscrimination into a virtue. If I were to make a criticism of the policy pursued by the present Minister's predecessor, it would be—and I make this criticism very diffidently—that there was not a sufficient attempt made to concentrate on the development of those industries ancillary to agriculture and that where an attempt was made to step in, say four or five stages up the manufacturing process, while from the point of view of giving employment it may have been temporarily useful, at the same time it was not the sanest or the soundest policy to pursue. It would be infinitely preferable, if I may give an example—and I am not referring to any existing industries—to start a factory for, say, the manufacture of tablets rather than a factory concerned merely with packing them.

There was a good deal of that type of industrial development pursued, perhaps of necessity, during portion of the régime of the previous Government. It resulted also—again I am prepared to concede that there may have been no possibilities of avoiding this—in a multiplicity of the type of concern that we came to know as "John Bull (Ireland) Limited." In other words, there was some product with a trade-name that was a household word, the makers of which were prepared to carry out a certain small portion of the manufacturing process here, and they came over and started business as, let us call them, "John Bull (Ireland) Limited." There may have been no way of avoiding these situations, but I do not think it is national heresy to advert to them, or to advert to the fact that to avoid them would have been desirable, if it were possible. Deputy Lemass talked of the necessity for not interfering with the profit motive, and as far as I could gather the point that he sought to make was that, provided the price was right from an economic point of view, the fairness of the price in relation to the profit was not a matter which was any concern of ours.

Unlimited profits.

It was, in effect, as Deputy Davin reminds me, a case for unlimited profits, subject of course to the price qualification. I am not a theologian but I know there would be many people surprised to hear Deputy Lemass giving expression to that particular philosophy. It may—and probably is, under existing circumstances, and in the capitalist system as it operates in this country—be impossible to do away with the profit motive, but I would like to suggest to the serious consideration of the Minister one way in which we can get away from the unbridled and unlicensed capacity to garner profit. It is one matter to which useful consideration could be given by the new Industrial Development Authority. Where private enterprise is chary of engaging in any particular manufacturing process or industrial development, this Industrial Development Authority might consider the building and equipping of factories.

There is no power in the Bill.

I will be guided by Captain Cowan when I have had an opportunity of giving more consideration to the Bill, but I think they have. They might consider building and equipping factories and leasing those factories for a specific type of manufacture to private individuals, if necessary, and, where private enterprise fails to engage in any particular type of industrial activity economically useful to the nation, it is perfectly competent for the Government to step in and to engage in that type of activity.

I hope this new Industrial Development Authority will give considerable thought to the possibilities of plastics in this country and the relation of the development of plastics to afforestation. Admittedly, afforestation is not something that will come directly within their scope.

Not even within their view.

They may not be quite as short-sighted as Deputy Cowan imagines. In so far as the Industrial Development Authority will be concerned with long term policy, with the provision of raw materials in years to come, in my submission, the possibility of the future development of plastics and the bearing that a vigorously pursued afforestation policy would have on the development of industries dependent on plastics is something which could very properly be considered by them.

There is another thing that surprised me very much in Deputy Lemass's remarks to the House to-day. Normally, Deputies on the benches opposite are the gloomy harbingers and prophets of war, doom and destruction. Deputy Lemass amazed me this afternoon.

Do not become flamboyant.

I would not attempt to be flamboyant in a House that contains Deputy Cowan. That would be presumption on my part. This afternoon Deputy Lemass became concerned, from the point of view of our future industrial development, not with the awful prospects of war which, from all we have heard from the benches opposite, is a certainty, but with the awful prospects of continued peace which would make dumping to an excessive degree inevitable. I do not know on what occasion I should heed the warning voice, whether when they cry war or when they cry peace.

All that Deputy Lemass had to offer in criticism of this Bill was based, first of all, on a misconception of what the Bill purports to do, secondly, on what is to my mind an unfounded suspicion of the minds which produced the Bill, and lastly, on a desire to criticise merely for criticism's sake.

The Minister, in introducing the measure, gave a comprehensive but necessarily limited survey of the problems which face us. There is one problem to which I think the Minister's attention has been directed in this House and which I was sorry he did not refer to. It is one which, to my mind, will have to engage the attention of this new authority. It is the extent to which rings of wholesalers —some of them nationals, some of them non-nationals enjoying the hospitality of this country, garnering good profits in this country—operate to combine against native industrial enterprise, to its detriment and in order to maintain a market here for imported goods. I have heard people engaged in industry claiming that they have more to fear from combinations of wholesalers operating against them than they have to fear from foreign competition or dumping. I would suggest to the Minister that he should refer consideration of that matter to the new Industrial Development Authority as soon as possible.

The Minister referred, but only in passing, to the necessity of developing our export markets. I would suggest that he should refer to the new authority for their consideration the question of the necessity for setting up an export marketing organisation, an organisation which would collate data as to market trends, world prices and competition and which, in my opinion, if it were to be effective, should act as a bulk buyer from our manufacturers for export to markets abroad. I think that that again is a matter which should speedily be referred by the Minister to the new authority.

Deputy Lynch referred, and I think correctly, to certain fears which he had in connection with sub-section (12), Section 4 and I think the Minister should consider sympathetically amendments to that section. It is not easy to deal with this matter, particularly in view of the fact that four very eminent gentlemen have already been named as members of the authority and anything I say has of course no bearing on them nor is it a reflection on them. I think, however, that the principle of sub-section (12) of Section 4 is an innovation that is unwise. Instead of this sub-section there should be an explicit prohibition on any person acting as a member of the board in the consideration of any matter in which he might have any financial interest. I think that Deputy Lynch was perfectly right to draw the attention of the House to that sub-section.

One would hope that a Bill such as this might mark the beginning of an agreed and fixed industrial development policy for the country as a whole. In view of the spirit in which it was received and the attacks and abuse which it provoked it is probably premature to have that hope. We will make no real progress in this country until such time as we can have an agreed policy, not subject to change with the fluctuating fortunes of political parties or governments, but one fixed with the aim of restoring the balance and giving us an industrial as well as an agricultural arm.

One of the final shots in Deputy Lemass's locker was his criticism of this Bill as a piece of retroactive or retrospective legislation. Having criticised this measure as a delaying measure, a measure designed to impede progress, he wound up by criticising the Minister for bringing into this House a Bill which had been in operation under administrative authority for almost 12 months. I think that therein lies the complete answer to the whole case made by Deputy Lemass. The very fact that the Government, before they could get legislative authority for this action and before they could get the Dáil to enforce it, the very fact that they did not delay but put the industrial authority to work 12 monhs ago, is proof enough of the good faith of the measure and proof enough that there is no idea behind the Bill of delaying or impeding industrial development.

My objection to this Bill is an objection which I have often voiced in this House during the past 20 years. I have a very definite objection to handing over power to any outside authority and removing from the scope of Deputies the power to challenge or criticise actions in any particular Department. I have seen Deputy Davin and other Deputies when they were in Opposition in the same difficulty from time to time as I was. We were told to hand over functions, we were told "this is the function of "So and so" and that the Minister was not responsible. This is a move in the self-same direction and that is my main objection to it. During my 20 years here I have had to make many a trip to the Trades and Industries Branch of the Department of Industry and Commerce. I want to say that on every occasion I went there I was received with courtesy; anything that could be done to help was done in the line of advice or assistance on any particular industry with which I was concerned. Therefore I can see no use now in bringing in a body of this sort. I am speaking frankly and politics have nothing whatever to do with it. I cannot see any occasion for this. There is a team of men over there who have at least 24 or 25 years' experience of Deputies, and in many cases individuals, coming to interview them about starting or developing one Irish industry or another. They advised them on the course they should take, whether it would be a good thing to start or not and about the district. All that advice is free, gratis and for nothing and in 90 cases out of 100 it is very good sound advice.

Who decided the place?

I will deal with that very quickly as far as Deputy Davin is concerned. In my opinion the Minister certainly should advise as to where any industry should be placed. We all know the anxiety of industries to plank down in Dublin, the anxiety to build a big incubus of a shop here embracing the whole City of Dublin and the hinterland behind. That was the situation and condition of affairs that prevailed and against which we had to fight. We had to force those people from their anxiety to start their industries in Dublin and get them to start them in the ordinary villages, towns and cities in every county in the State. There is no use in bringing up a whole line of industries surrounding Dublin with nothing outside them and nothing anywhere else. That was the drive that drove Dunlop's into Cork City and that was the drive that drove Irish Steel into Haulbowline. That was the drive that drove other industries step by step into towns in different parts of the country. I claim that the Minister should have a right, and, if he is not going to exercise that right, then I say God help any hope of an industry in the town of Fermoy or the town of Youghal in my constituency. There are 250 to 300 unemployed in each town to-day. That right must be exercised and those people must be told where to go—if you like, forced to go there. I for one am in favour of it, and make no bones about it.

I remember discussing this particular aspect of affairs in another place and I will put this suggestion to Deputy Davin for what it is worth. If you have complete control of the 32 Counties, how many of the new industrialists will you get to come anywhere south of the Boyne? Just think that over. I have thought it over very seriously. When Deputy Davin comes into this House to sneer at the idea of the beet factory in Tuam, I say this to him: One of our greatest problems has been the congested areas—the small farmers, the small uneconomic holdings and the trouble and worry of endeavouring to find something to do for the surplus population there. That is why the factory was established in Tuam. It was established in the hope that the small farmers in Galway and Mayo and the other counties surrounding would go in for tillage, for the intensive production of beet and other crops of that type. The same idea was put forward during the emergency in favour of the intensive cultivation of turnip, man-gold and other seeds—that they should be grown in areas of that description. If they are brought to the position to-day of being practically an uneconomic unit, I wonder who is responsible?

We hear a lot now about industrial development and suggestions are made here as to what this team should do when they start work. I suggest the first job they should get—it would be a good job for them—would be to investigate why we have to bring £2,000,000 worth of sugar from Cuba this year. That might be a fairly good job to start with. We are short 15,000 acres of beet, which means unemployment for 2,125 people, or, put another way, permanent employment for one man on every seven acres of beet. If the Deputy has any doubt about it, he should look at our costings report. They might also investigate why it is we are importing potatoes from Amsterdam and why we had to bring in oats from the Argentine. Those are but a few of the things they might investigate.

I am opposed to this Bill also on the ground that, in my opinion, far better work can be done by the experienced team that is in the Trade and Industry Branch of the Department; far better work can be done by these skilled men who have been there for many years listening to proposals in relation to every class of industry under the sun. They have a far wider and better experience than any others could hope to have. If the present Minister would just carry on from where the last Ministep stopped, he would be doing a good day's work for the country. He should carry on from that point with the further industrialisation of this country and, above everything else, he should see that the industries that are established here, such as the sugar industry, are not wiped out. It is no credit to any Government when we find an industry, with all its raw materials produced from our own soil and by our own people, brought to the position in which you have to pay between £500,000 and £600,000 more to the foreigner for sugar than you would pay to the farmers here.

I am not speaking in any carping spirit; I am speaking as one who has done his utmost during the past four months to induce the farmers to increase the acreage of beet. But you are up against it there. The cost of production in the past two years has gone up by over £5 an acre.

The Deputy is now going into the agricultural side.

I am dealing with the possible stoppage of four factories here —the danger of the curtailment, even the closing down, of any one of the four factories established here, factories that are giving any amount of employment. I want to issue this warning. If that industry goes down it will take Córas Iompair Éireann with it, because 70 per cent. of the freightage done by Córas Iompair Éireann is in connection with the four factories.

Where did you get those figures?

Think them over.

I have seen them quoted before.

Yes, I learned them off. I have not been for the past ten or 12 years connected with the Beet Growers' Association without learning something about the industry.

Look at the balance sheet.

I need not. I am here to give the facts and to call the attention of the House to the danger of losing a good industry.

What did you say here before about the factories?

You never grew anything in the County Roscommon but an old bullock.

You cannot answer that.

I will not try to answer anything.

The Deputy is not appointed the judge of any man's speech. He can make his own.

I am here to give the facts. Deputy Lehane said that in their first four or five years Fianna Fáil did very well in looking after industry. Apparently, he seemed to think that they went to sleep after that. I want to remind him that they established the steel industry without which the country would have been completely paralysed during the emergency. It was opened about a fortnight before the declaration of war in 1939.

Reopened.

Opened. All credit is due to the Minister who had the courage to do that. It is there now and nothing can shake it. We had hoped that it would be expanded to do other things that we had planned for it and so provide further employment to keep our men at home. The 380 persons who are employed there are getting decent wages and working under decent conditions. An industry which pays £5 a week to the lowest paid man employed in it is no bad industry. If the Minister at that time had not the foresight to establish that industry our horses would be without shoes and our ploughs without socks, so that it would be impossible to do tillage during the years of the emergency. That was an industry that held out hope for us during the period of the emergency. The present Minister for Agriculture told us that his plan for the beet factories was to blow them up.

What about the white elephants?

I wonder what the position in the country would have been during the emergency if it were not for the four beet factories and the sugar they produced?

There is nothing about beet growing in this Bill.

This is a Bill to establish an Industrial Development Authority. I hope that, when the Minister is looking at other things, he will have a look at our four beet factories and at their production. I am not in favour of the setting up of any body that is going to be outside the authority of this Dáil. That is the sole objection I have to the Bill.

I must say that, having listened to the speech made by the Minister, the survey he made of the industrial problems in this country, the plans which he envisages for the future and the machinery he proposes in the Bill for carrying out those plans, I expected, as most other Deputies expected from the spokesmen for the Opposition, support and approval for this measure and for that machinery. Instead of getting that support or approval, we had from Deputy Lemass what was nothing more than the speech of a very petulant politician. I do not propose to chase the hares he started here this evening. I do not know whether he intended it or not, but certainly, in my opinion, his speech could be a very damaging one to the machinery envisaged by this Bill. Anybody with any knowledge of industrial activity, and particularly Deputy Lemass, should appreciate that one of the conditions to ensure success for an authority of this kind is that it should have the confidence, support, backing and co-operation of Irish industry. Without that support and backing, this authority will find its scope considerably minimised. I do not want to discuss the intentions behind Deputy Lemass's speech, but I hope they will have some effect on the speeches to be made from the opposite side later in this debate.

So far as one can judge, since the formation of the board 12 months ago, the work done by the members of it has gradually won for the Industrial Development Authority considerable support both from employers and employees in Irish industry. Their operations over that period have been a considerable success. I am afraid, if the lead given by Deputy Lemass tonight is followed by other speakers, that that position will be damaged. If it is, considerable harm will have been done to the entire industrial movement in this country.

There were some other things which Deputy Lemass said in the course of his speech. As a member of the Fine Gael Party, I want to say that I take the greatest possible exception to his sneers that this Bill was the product of a Fine Gael mentality, and that it was intended to hamper Irish industry. I should like to remind Deputy Lemass and Deputy C. Lehane, who talked of the late Arthur Griffith, that it was his policy to give to this country an industrial arm, and that that was the tradition of the Fine Gael Party right since the formation of this State. We do not need Deputy de Valera or Deputy Lemass, who at a certain stage were not interested in reconstructing this country——

Does the Deputy want an acrimonious debate? If not, he had better leave that aside.

If the Chair thinks I am not in order in dealing with——

I just said that that might lead to an acrimonious debate.

I think I am within my rights——

——in dealing with what was an attack on the Fine Gael Party.

The phrase, "They were not interested in reconstructing this country" might raise the question of the Civil War.

I have not raised the question of the Civil War and I have no intention of raising it.

I will take the Deputy's word.

Major de Valera

I refrain from saying anything, but I think it would be better if we accepted the Ceann Comhairle's invitation.

Deputy Lemass spent one and a quarter hours on it.

On a point of order. If there is an attack on some people in this House and it is said that their philosophy is so-and-so, I think any Deputy is entitled to reply to that.

I think the Deputy misunderstands the Chair. No objection was raised, except that the Chair believed that the Deputy now in possession was referring to the Civil War. He assures me he was not.

Having referred to that particular part of Deputy Lemass's speech, and to what was said by Deputy C. Lehane in agreement, apparently, with Deputy Lemass, I am entitled to say that our Party, carrying out the traditions of the late Arthur Griffith, owes an apology to no one so far as industrial development in this State is concerned. Our Party carried out the policy of Arthur Griffith long before Deputy Lemass was ever heard of in this country and long before a lot of neo-politicians were ever heard of in this country.

What do you know about it?

Deputy Killilea had better keep quiet on a subject of this kind. It was Arthur Griffith's policy that this country should have its industrial arm and its industrial activity. I think I am entitled to claim for our Party that they have endeavoured to put that policy into practice. I do not think it is desirable that this debate should be widened but, in replying to that particular charge, I am entitled to remind Deputy Lemass and other Deputies opposite, even Deputy Corry from Cork who prattles about sugar beet, that the idea of having sugar production in this country and a beet factory here was first put into practice by the Cumann na nGaedhael Government in face of considerable opposition from the Fianna Fáil Party. I am entitled to say that the Shannon scheme, which provides power for Irish industry to-day, was started despite opposition from the Party opposite. I am entitled to say that when these schemes were put into operation the Fianna Fáil Party described them as "white elephants". Now we have a Deputy like Deputy Corry coming in here to prattle about the benefit to us of these particular items of our industrial activity, particularly during the war, and giving Deputy Lemass a pat on the back at the same time. I do not want to follow up that any more, but I trust that that particular discussion will not be renewed in this debate because, if it is, it will be followed, I am certain, from this side by any number of other replies.

Coming to the last two years, following Deputy Lemass's sneer about the Fine Gael mentality inspiring this Bill, I would recall that a great man in our country's history once said: "If a certain person be a traitor, I am proud to be a traitor too." I think it is right to say that the mentality which inspired this Bill is the mentality which inspired the progress for the last 18 months or two years, which increased employment at the rate of 1,000 persons per month owing to industrial activity which has given country villages and towns the one hope of decent employment by new industries, and that is a very good thing for the country and a very good thing for this Government. Like any other Bill introduced by this Government and supported by all Parties forming the inter-Party Government, this Bill represents what has long been the view of political opponents of the Party opposite: that you are never going to get real industrial activity here until you charge a body which is not bound by Civil Service regulations with that particular task, give them the scope and the power, and select men of initiative and determination to do it. That was the view held by the Labour Party and by the Fine Gael Party and, I am certain, by Clann na Poblachta, and I am glad that that view is being put into practice in this Bill.

None of us on this side of the House and, apart from Deputy Corry and Deputy Lemass on the other side, I think, would attempt to apportion either praise or blame for industrial progress in this country in the last 28 years or so. I think each of the previous Governments, in the conditions under which they administered the affairs of this country, did their utmost to further the aim and philosophy of the late Arthur Griffith. The Minister, in introducing the Bill, having dealt with the industrial progress that undoubtedly has been made under our own institutions, stated that the problem still remaining is a very large one and one very difficult of solution, that Irish money still invested abroad represented £150 per head of the population here. Yet, in this country, there are hundreds of fading, dying villages and towns. I know a number of them in my constituency and I am sure that that is true of every other constituency represented by Deputies. Small villages or towns that, perhaps, in other days had a garrison of British troops or some concentration like that which kept them in existence have, for the last quarter of a century, perhaps for longer, been gradually fading away, the young men being driven into the larger towns and cities and eventually out of the country. That problem is there and it must be tackled.

Deputy Lemass, Deputy Lynch and Deputy Corry, together with other Opposition speakers, asked what was the need for it. They asked was not the Trade and Industries Branch of the Department of Industry and Commerce not capable of doing the work? That was their criticism. I can describe it as nothing less than arrant nonsense. This problem has existed for the past 28 years. It is nonsense 28 years after we have taken over the management of our own affairs to say that the machinery to tackle a problem like that is already at our disposal. No one could possibly believe that civil servants, or a section of a particular Department, could decentralise industry or initiate an industrial drive throughout the country. They could not harmonise industrial activities. Anyone who knows anything about the ramifications of the Civil Service must understand that. Anyone who believes to the contrary is mislead. Anyone who says that industrialisation could be done through the medium of the Civil Service talks complete nonsense. The two kinds of activity are incompatible.

Civil servants carry out a particular function. It is their job to do an allotted task and no civil servant goes beyond what the regulations prescribe for him. It is their function to sit in an office and advise possible or potentia entrepreneurs with regard to any schemes they may put forward. Can one visualise for a moment the head of the trade and industries branch of the Department of Industry and Commerce taking a boat or a plane to Scotland, Wales, England or anywhere else to examine industrial activity there and report back to a group of interested people here? I do not think one could expect that kind of activity from even the most efficient and capable of civil servants. It simply is not their job.

This Bill brings a welcome change. We have all experienced a maddening impatience because of the regulations which tie up civil servants. Some of us have often felt that many of our problems might be solved if somewhere, somehow, a civil servant could be taken from his office and brought to examine the problem on the spot. Now, this Bill envisages the complete divorce of this authority from any Civil Service mentality. The members of it will have a different outlook from that of civil servants with regard to implementing an industrial drive. That is the primary purpose actuating the establishment of this authority. That was the purpose that brought it into being ten or 11 months ago. I am sorry Deputy Davin has left the House. Laois-Offaly needs a considerable degree of industrialisation. In my contact with the Industrial Development Authority over the last ten months I have seen every evidence that they are prepared to go out, unlike the civil servants, and look at the particular problem on the spot in an endeavour, so far as they can, to establish some suitable industrial activity.

The Minister has stressed the Government's anxiety with regard to decentralisation. I do not think anyone will disagree with that particular line of policy. Apparently the Fianna Fáil Party is prepared to pay lip service to decentralisation. They at least agree with the Minister in his proposal. For that reason, too, the Bill is an extremely welcome one. Another aspect that must not be overlooked is that prior to the formation of this authority the industrial drive depended upon the enthusiasm of a Minister and upon individual entrepreneurs becoming interested. In that system there was necessarily a lack of harmony and co-ordination with regard to industrial activity. I do not think a survey over the last 28 years would disclose any clear policy with regard to industrialisation. Experience seems to suggest that many ill-considered industries were commenced and many excellent industries overlooked. That arose because of a lack of co-ordination. As a result of that lack, there was a lack of confidence on the part of industrialists to initiate industrial activities. Most Deputies will agree that that lack of co-ordination caused considerable difficulty in the past.

I sincerely hope that the line of approach adopted by Deputy Lemass will not be pursued by other Opposition speakers. Such an approach can only damage this proposal. Knowing the possible danger, I do not think the Opposition Deputies will be so malicious as to wilfully permit that damage to be done. Anything that takes from confidence in industry is damaging to the country as a whole.

I think the Bill is an excellent one. Like Deputy Lehane, I too would like to express my admiration of the fact that we are discussing here something in the nature of a fait accompli. We are discussing a body that is already functioning, admittedly without any legislative authority but, nevertheless, functioning in an administrative capacity. I am glad that when this project was decided upon some 10 or 11 months ago the Minister immediately put the authority into operation. We have had ten months of progress since the formation of that authority. Ten months' work has been achieved. I think that is a good thing. I know that in many parts of the country the benefits of that change have been felt.

I know that down in the Midlands there certainly are signs of industrial activities just bearing fruit that have merely grown up in the last few months under this particular authority.

Major de Valera

That is very funny.

Changes like that are for the good. I hope the Fianna Fáil Party, before this debate concludes, will show support for this measure because I think it is in the interests of the country and that it deserves the support of all sides of the House.

Major de Valera

Would the Deputy tell us what exactly they have done?

Now, do not do the heavy. The Deputy was not in the House to listen to it.

Major de Valera

I was.

The Deputy was not.

I have called Deputy Cowan. He should be given an opportunity of making his speech.

I must make a personal request to Deputy Lemass not to intervene in a debate of this kind so early because the contributions we have had up to the present have been based mainly on Deputy Lemass's speech and not on the proposals contained in the Bill which is before the House. It is quite clear that some of the speakers at least who have contributed to this discussion have not read the Bill at all and that they have not any idea of what the Bill proposes or what it contains.

One of the big problems that has faced us for a long number of years is the problem of unemployment. One of the ideas of industrial development has been to deal with that problem of unemployment—in other words, to provide employment for the people and to provide essential goods that are required by the people for use and for consumption. For a long time there was an idea that the method of solving this, unemployment problem was the development of agriculture. It was considered that more tillage — more production on the farms generally— would solve the unemployment problem and that the only way of solving the problem was by keeping the people in the country.

Under the conditions which existed 100 years ago that might have been so but in modern conditions every person is of the opinion that, with the mechanisation and modern development of agriculture, there will be less and less employment on the land. That being so, if we are to solve the unemployment problem, we are faced with the very serious responsibility and the very serious duty of developing industries all over the country. If there is to be success in an industrial drive these new industries must be located right through the country—certainly in the principal towns and in the larger villages. As I understood it, all political Parties were agreed that such an industrial drive was necessary. As I understood it, one of the purposes which actuated the formation of the inter-Party Government was the desire to give impetus to that particular drive. I always understood that it was the responsibility of the Government and the responsibility of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to see to our industrial development and to see to the building up of new industries in the country. I think it is well that we should insist that that is still the duty of the Government that that is still the duty of the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

There is no question about it.

Let me repeat it— that that is still the duty of the Minister and that that is still the duty of the Government. Deputies participated in this debate who, apparently, have not read the Bill at all; who have misinterpreted the speech made by the Minister and, to some extent, the speech made by Deputy Lemass. They are claiming for this development authority something that the Industrial Development Authority will be given no responsibility for in this particular Bill.

I think that an error was made in the naming of the Bill. I think that the body set up by this Bill—under the authority given to it by this Bill— is not an Industrial Development Authority at all, although I can see that it is a body that can contribute a considerable amount towards industrial development. I heard one Deputy suggesting that this body could go out and build factories—I take it equip them with machinery and let them to some interests for the purpose of trying to build up industries. Clearly that is a misconception of the duties and responsibilities of the authority under this Bill. The powers of this authority are set out in Section 3 of the Bill very clearly and very precisely. The section is as follows:—

The authority shall be an autonomous body with the following functions:—

(i) to initiate proposals and schemes for the creation and development of Irish industries;

(ii) to survey possibilities of further industrial development;

(iii) to advise on steps necessary and desirable for establishing new industries;

(iv) to advise on steps necessary for the expansion and modernisation of existing industries;

(v) to give advice and guidance to persons contemplating starting new industries or expanding existing industries;

(vi) to investigate the effects of protective measures, with special reference to employment, prices, quality of goods, wage levels and conditions of employment;

(vii) to examine any proposals referred to the authority by the Minister relating to the imposition or revision of tariffs, quotas or other protective or developmental measures, and to investigate the probable effects of such proposals, with special reference to employment, prices, quality of goods, wage levels and conditions of employment, and

(viii) to devise on any matter relating to industrial development referred to the authority by the Minister.

That is what the Bill says the duties of this Industrial Development Authority are. I can see there is a lot to be said for the establishment of such a body. A body that will do all the things that are set out there, that will advise and help the Minister to make up his mind in regard to the development of industry, must be a help. I consider that the establishment of such a body is desirable but I am certainly not entitled to say, within the four walls of that Bill, that this is something that is going to lead to the establishment of new industries because new industries will not be established unless the Minister and the Government insist on their establishment. Let me say that I think this country will not be industrialised until there is a ruthless programme of industrialisation carried out by the Minister and the Government.

Let us assume that some person suggests the setting up of a particular industry. That proposal is made to the Industrial Development Authority or is sent on to them. They consider it in all its aspects. They may have to go abroad to inspect a factory where similar articles are produced. They have to go into costings, to study the materials and machinery utilised and the probable employment. Having done all that, they then look for some people who are likely to be interested in the development of such an industry. Then these people must study it, go into it and decide if they are interested.

The next question that arises is where the industry is to be established. The Industrial Development Authority may think that it would be wise to establish that industry in Nenagh, Loughrea, Mullingar or Athlone, and the Minister may agree with that view, but the people who are interested may say: "We will not establish a factory in any one of these places; we must establish it in Cork or Dublin." What is the position then? Is the Minister to say to that body: "We are finished with you; we shall get in touch with somebody else," or is the Minister to cave in and say: "Very well, you had better establish it in Dublin and help to enlarge the city"? I want to put it to the Minister plainly that this country will never be industrialised while we have got to go through these processes.

The Minister has given us figures tonight which were illuminating. He says that within a period of four years, £60,000,000 worth of goods were imported into this country which could have been produced here and that if these goods had been produced here they would have given employment to 45,000 men.

Mr. de Valera

I did not hear the Minister quote these figures, but I have heard other Deputies refer to them. Was the period a period of two years or one year?

Two years.

I was not altogether sure. In a period of two years then, £60,000,000 worth of goods were imported, the production of which would have given employment to 45,000 persons here. That means we imported £30,000,000 worth of goods each year which we could have produced here.

I mentioned the years 1948-49. Actually there was £60,000,000 imported in each of those two years but I bracketed them together. You can take it we were importing in those two years goods to the tune of £60,000,000, which, based on existing standards, would give employment to 45,000 persons if produced at home.

I am glad the Minister has corrected that because it strengthens my argument. I take it that these years may have been exceptional in regard to imports.

They were exceptional but it must be remembered that imports were being reduced at that time.

The amount is probably more than might come in, in a normal year. However the figure is a very useful one for discussion. We have £60,000,000 worth of goods imported each year and the production of these goods in this country would have given employment to 45,000 men. Is that not what we charged the Government to do, to give employment to these 45,000 people at the earliest possible date? I realise that you cannot just become a Government to-day and put 45,000 extra people into employment to-morrow. I do not think anyone expects that but at least within two years we should be in a position to see the picture of industrial development in the country. We ought to see the foundations of the factories going down, the walls being erected and the machinery being installed. I think it is not unreasonable to say that that is our primary function. The Minister has referred to the fact that there has been a substantial volume of emigration from this country over a long period. He has frankly said that he sees no immediate hope of reduction in that emigration, unless there is industrial development to give employment to these people at home. Therefore, our duty is to see that there is industrial development and the duty of the Government and of the Minister is to bring about that industrial development. My view is that, unless this problem of industrial development is tackled with ruthlessness by the Minister and the Government, it will not be solved in the lifetime of this Dáil and probably will not be solved in the lifetime of the next Dáil. Time is flying; youths are leaving the country; people are unemployed and people are hungry; and there is hunger and destitution in many homes in the country— all because this industrial development is not tackled in the way in which it should be tackled by the persons responsible.

What I fear is that, when this Bill becomes law, there may be a tendency to say to any person who presses for the establishment of an industry here, there or elsewhere: "This matter is being examined by the Industrial Development Authority". That is the danger I see, that, unconsciously and without any intent, the Minister, when approached about a particular industry, may say: "I have referred that to the Industrial Development Authority. They are examining it and when I have their report I will be able to talk to you about it."

That means that every idea, every recommendation, every request in regard to industrial development will be referred to this body and in a very short time this body will have before it thousands of applications in regard to protective measures, wage levels and conditions of employment, prices, new industries and possible new industries. This body, consisting of four members, will have all this volume of work thrown upon it. In other words, instead of the Minister with his staff of civil servants, of whom I have a much higher opinion than Deputy O'Higgins has, dealing with these matters, they are to be handed over to four people, who have in fact the same staff of civil servants. The only difference between the Minister and this body is that four of them will come together to consult, instead of the Minister making up his mind himself.

And they can devote the whole of their time to that one matter.

They can, but, in a very short time, a complete and important section will be transferred from the Department of Industry and Commerce over to this authority. I can see that this Industrial Development Authority can do valuable work. It can do valuable work in regard to this whole question of studying questions of price, questions of protective measures and so on, and I am absolutely certain that any investigation they carry out in regard to a new industry will result in the production to the Minister of a report that will be invaluable; but I should much prefer to see the Minister making up his mind quickly and making mistakes in regard to industrialisation than that we should wait for this new body to make its long and detailed examination into the possibilities of an industry before the industry is started.

I ask the Minister to make it clear, when replying, that, although this Industrial Development Authority is there, he will not hesitate to give orders for the establishment of a new industry, without waiting for a report from this authority, if he thinks it in the best interests of the nation so to do. If we can have the assurance from the Minister that the setting up of this body will not in any way prevent the Minister and the Government from going ahead with industries which can and should be established immediately, I think the two authorities, the Minister and this body, can work well in co-operation and conjunction.

I was frankly dismayed here this evening by the contributions to the debate which visualised the body the Minister sets up here as the body that is to take control of all industry and industrial development and to set the wheels of industry revolving—a purely wrong approach to the matter and an idea which is an entire misconception. Unless we can have industrial development in the country, we cannot solve the unemployment problem, and, if we cannot solve that problem, we are failing in our duty to bring prosperity to the nation as a whole. That unemployment problem can only be solved by industrialisation and that industrialisation cannot be delayed pending all the involved examination this Bill suggests. There must be a rapid industrialisation, a ruthless dealing with the problem by the Minister.

Having said that, I do not accept what some Deputies have said here, that the setting up of this authority will prevent industrialisation. It could do that if the Minister were to wash his hands of his responsibility and if the Government were to do so; but so long as the Minister and the Government are prepared to accept and to bear their responsibilities, the two authorities can work in harmony. We can get industries going right away, almost on Government Order, and in time will be able to get other industries when they have gone through the sieve of examination by this authority, but industries are essential, industries are required, and all our energies and all our intelligence should be directed to that end, so as to build up the industrial arm of the country.

I was interested in listening to the various contributions to this debate and particularly that of the last speaker. Listening to Deputy Cowan, I came to the conclusion that certain members of the House approached this matter without any understanding of the facts on which the whole idea of industrialisation must be based. It is no use talking platitudes or making these very extravagant statements that the Govern-must order industrialisation. The Government cannot just take industrialists and their capital by the back of the neck and bring them in to some building which they have chosen and tell them: "Get to it, put your money into this and that, and employ people."

I hope I did not suggest that.

That is the indication from what Deputy Cowan said. He may not have meant it. We must approach this from an angle where we are accepting certain principles. If this is to be turned into a State where the individual freedom ceases and where the individual property becomes the property of the State, then what Deputy Cowan suggests could be done and the question of whether there was a profit motive attaching to industry or whether there was this right of individual liberty or individual property could be discarded, and one would produce what has been produced in some other places wherein we have very little intimate knowledge about the situation there.

We do accept, I believe, at this particular moment that individuals have certain rights but that they have certain responsibilities and duties. If we are to attract industrialists to take the risk and to consider investing their money or getting other capital into private industries as distinct from State-sponsored or State-owned industries, then one has to examine the situation from the point of view as they see it. First of all, it is not so long ago since a very serious and genuine attempt was made to bring about a certain amount of industrialisation in this country, for the very express object of giving employment to as many of our men and women as possible in our own country, to increase the standard of living as far as possible and to have at home as big a market as possible for the other industrial arm, the agricultural industrial arm.

During the efforts that were made, under the very great difficulties of an economic war and later on of a great war, what happened? The political opponents of the then Government, in attacking the Government, did not realise that what they were actually doing was frightening off the serious-minded people who wanted genuinely to start industries but who did not want to be drawn into political con flicts. We are paying in the last few years for that behaviour. What is needed to-day, apart from that, is some suggestion or, if you like, some acceptance of the position that support must be given by the Government —whatever Government it is and irrespective of whatever changes take place—to protect industries, while controlling them as well.

We have heard industrialists called racketeers and profiteers. We have had all kinds of people saying that, in the interest of reducing the cost of living, you must reduce tariffs; and for some period of time no one knew what was going to happen after the change. It is true that the present Minister for Industry and Commerce must have realised that a great deal of damage had been done to the possibility of quick industrialisation, because he went to the radio and broadcast to the nation, first of all, that the people must learn the importance of supporting native-produced goods—which was in itself a very important statement to make and was an acceptance by the Minister that industries must have, besides protection, the support of the people at home.

In approaching these matters in relation to this Bill, as I have said, there are certain definite statements that must be made. It must be confirmed that if you want to attract the private investor for the smaller industries or medium-sized industries, he, or the body of people coming together to do that work, must be recognised as doing something of benefit to the nation as well as of profit to the investors themselves.

We come to the point as to where factories should be located. In the Bill, this body has authority to specify where industry should be set up, and Deputy Cowan dealt with that to a certain extent, as to how that was to be finally solved. If a body of business people get together to start an industry, they are concerned, apart from the long-term security of their industry, as to how they are going to operate. Are they to rely exclusively on native raw materials? If the amount of raw materials that they require is not available at home and they have to get a certain portion from outside, are they going to have the possibility of getting it in under favourable circumstances and with the backing of the Government? Or are they going to be forced to pay a higher price for the raw material than is paid by competitors across the water for the same raw material? The Minister knows of that point, and I think he has investigated certain complaints in that direction.

There must be protection also against the possibility of dumping. The Minister knows that that has happened also. There has to be general protection for the industry against, if you like, an attempt to destroy it from outside. At the same time, there is control from inside. There is the Conditions of Employment Act. There is the Prices Section of Industry and Commerce, which controls the margins of profit, but there must be reason attached to that, too. During the war years, certain newly established industries, not long enough established to have had the advantage of what is called the pre-war standard of profits, found themselves, because of the excess profits duty and because of some flaw in the Act, giving 90 odd per cent. into the Exchequer and no allowance at all being given to them to make provision for renewals of machinery, replacements, or some reserve fund to meet the situation that would follow at the end of hostilities.

Business men are business men first They will go into a business if they think that there is a chance of their investment giving them a reasonable margin of profit in the shape of dividends. They want security from political conflicts, they want to be sure that practically every member of the House, irrespective of Party, is accepting as a fundamental principle, of interest to the country, that we must have industrialisation if we want to give employment to our people who at the present moment have to emigrate to seek employment elsewhere. If this is accepted, you can lay down the rules and regulations under which these people can get going and under which they have to operate.

This industrial development body is the body which the Minister now sets up. I believe that during the years of the industrial development preceding the war years there had grown up in the Department of Industry and Commerce quite a substantial section of the Department, with officers who had come gradually to understand not only what the policy of the Government was, in so far as they had to administer it, but also the problems of the business people who were opening up these industries. It seems to me to be a pity that that had not been allowed to develop now, since there was this mark-time period during the war when possibly all these officers would have a chance to reflect on past decisions, whether they were good or bad ones, and be able to go ahead now under their own steam in the post-war years. I understand that there was a number of applications or proposals in with the Department for consideration, to be implemented after the war years.

I am wondering what has happened to all these hundreds, if not thousands, of proposals to start new industries, to extend old industries, to remove industries from one place to another, and so forth. We have heard nothing about these although the Minister's predecessor made the definite statement that these propositions were being considered, shortly after the war, during the last part of the emergency. I think it is a pity. The Minister himself should be responsible to the House for decisions in the nature of allowing industries to be started or preventing industries from being started or as to the location of industries.

So he is, and will be.

I understand from the Bill that the decision of the Minister will be made on the recommendation of this particular body.

Where they are made, it will be on the recommendation of this body. I have a feeling—it may be wrong—that if this Bill becomes an Act, when questions will be made in the House, the Minister will be able to say: "It is not my function. It is not my business. We cannot discuss that here nor can we discuss any aspects of it."

Will the Deputy allow me to relieve him of those fears? That cannot happen under this Bill.

If the Minister says that cannot happen, I do not understand why the Bill is being introduced at all because we are back again to the position that existed prior to the introduction of the Bill, that the Minister is, in fact, wholly and entirely responsible for anything to do with industries, new or old. What is the idea of having a Bill brought in to set up a body which he could easily set up in his Department by bringing in these same individuals and appointing them as civil servants and adding them to the talent he already has in his Department? I cannot see the sense of the Bill if there is going to be no change in the position as between the Minister and the Dáil in connection with industrial development. That is difficult for me to understand.

The Deputy's only objection seems to be that I am not making the four of them civil servants?

Yes. If what the Minister says is the position, there is going to be no difference after the setting up of this body from the present position, then I say, why set it up, why not take the best talent in the country, bring them into the service of the State and add them to the talent you already have.

I did not say that. I did not say there was going to be no difference from the present position.

The Minister wants it both ways—there is no difference and there is a difference. I say there is a difference. That is what I said before.

There is, definitely.

It is that difference that I am objecting to. Take industrialists. They will now make application to this body to consider the establishment of a new industry. They will explain what they want. I do not know whether we can call it a Department or not but it is not a Department. This Industrial Development Authority will tell them where they might have to go if they are to get sanction to start the industry, what facilities they will give them or recommend the Government to give them. Another body of already existing industrialists may say that the tariff they have is not sufficient, that there is all kinds of interference in their market, through unfair practices from outside. It is this body that will make the recommendation in that case to the Minister. Deputy Lehane referred to what he called rings of wholesalers strangling the native manufacturer. I have knowledge of a particular existing industry, manufacturing a certain commodity, the quality of which is not questioned, where the conditions of employment are above question, who were under very severe control by the prices section of the Department of Industry and Commerce. The Department of Industry and Commerce cannot get the traders that they supply to agree to a reasonable margin of profit and these traders are able to say to that particular industry "Unless you give us this particular margin, we will not sell your goods." In consequence, the traders have absolute control as regards the manufacturers' selling price and the public are being made pay too high a price. Will this industrial body be able to deal with that section of the community or will they be confined to manufacturers? If they will not be in a position to deal with that section, will that manufacturer have to go back then to the Department to try to get intervention there?

I feel that it would have been far better if the Minister had said "We have in the Department a certain number of civil servants experienced in this particular aspect of the problem confronting the nation. I shall make it a special, separate section and will have a Parliamentary Secretary in control of it. I will bring in individuals"—these very same individuals who are mentioned in the Bill if you like—"to be the head of this industrial board and they will deal with all aspects of the problem". I cannot understand what it is hoped to accomplish for the betterment of the industrial policy.

With regard to the location of industries, it is all very well for a member of this House to make representations either to this body or to the Minister—I do not know whether members of the House would be able to make representations to this body or not— to bring a certain proposed industry to a particular town. The industrialist has to consider where he can get his raw materials, what will be his main distribution centre, and he might consider that if he were brought to a place where transport charges would add very heavily to his costs and, therefore, to the price to the consumers, it might be better not to manufacture at all. He will argue that, in the long run, he will be judged on his product and its value to the public and that no one will give him credit afterwards for the fact that he located his business in a remote town, in deference to representations or to oblige the authorities, in order to give employment in the area where there was unemployment. The transport charge of raw materials to the factory, and of the finished product from the factory to the metropolitan area may cause his goods to be so much dearer.

Deputy Lynch referred to Section 4 and I think Deputy Lehane indicated that he hoped to see an amendment to that section. Will the Minister say if the interpretation that has been given by these legal gentlemen, a solicitor and a lawyer, is correct, that under that section the members appointed under this Bill to this board will be entitled to take a holding in a company in respect of which they decide to make recommendations to the Minister to establish an industry, or is that limited only to such industries where, possibly, the Government itself may be financially interested? I cannot believe that the section is meant as it has been read out and interpreted here because it would be a very serious thing for prospective industrialists to have to come and make proposals to certain people who, they might feel, could possibly be considering a similar industry in competition with them in which they would themselves be shareholders and directors. I would like to ask the Minister to make that point clear because that seems to me to be completely unnecessary.

What is troubling the Deputy?

The section that permits members of the industrial body to have a holding in an industry. Deputy Con Lehane read it out and Deputy Lynch referred to it and there was adverse comment upon it. Deputy Lynch said he hoped to see it amended.

They must disclose it.

Disclosing does not alter the fact of what I am trying to point out. A group of business men will go to put up a proposition to the body and they want to be able to go to that body as they were able to go to civil servants in the past who had no other office except their job and who would give the best advice. Now you are to go to a body of men who have the right under an Act of Parliament to go into business themselves. The business men may come to the conclusion that these men may be considering the same business but are not entitled to tell them because they are equally bound by the Official Secrets Act. What is meant there is that that right would be specifically related to State-sponsored concerns and schemes where the Government would be interested. When Government money is involved they want a nominee in the same way as they have a civil servant in State-controlled concerns. This is a sub-section which certainly will give the business people a lot to think about.

Does the Deputy know what is in the sub-section?

Will Deputy O'Higgins read it to me?

It reads:—

"Where a member has any financial interest directly or indirectly in any industrial undertaking, he shall declare the nature of such interest to the Minister and shall comply with such directions as the Minister may give him in regard to it."

Does the Deputy know now?

I do. When a layman goes to his solicitor or lawyer for advice, he gets the solicitor or lawyer's interpretation of a thing. When he acts on that, he finds that his opponent has equally gone to his solicitor and lawyer and got quite opposite advice. They go to court and the judge decides which set of lawyers is right and which set is wrong and one poor fellow has to pay. The Deputy is a solicitor; he is reading me a section and asking me what I think.

I merely asked if the Deputy knows what is in it.

That is a legal point. "I am not asking a question; I am only asking what is in it and that is not a question." Of course that is a question. I am speaking as a layman and we speak simple language. When a person asks a question we assume that it is a question. From my understanding of the sub-section, it permits, with the consent of the Minister, members of the board to be holders of stock or have an interest in industrial concerns.

Would the Deputy prefer the Bill if the sub-section were not in it?

Then they would not have to apply to the Minister.

I should like to make it clear that they should not be permitted to take shares in a new industry which would be considered or recommended by them. There are stringent regulations in the Civil Service regarding what civil servants may do with regard to any interest. We know that in the case of the Department of Justice a guard must not be the owner of a public-house, or if his wife is the owner of a public-house he must not do duty in the same town, because obviously he has an interest and the other publicans in the town would object. In the same way, this matter should be reconsidered. The Minister should give us a clearer definition of what it implies and of its limitations, if any.

Did the Deputy never see a similar sub-section in legislation before?

I never saw legislation of this kind before with regard to the setting up of a body to deal with such a very widespread aspect of the life of the nation and with particular reference to future development.

Deputy Lemass referred to the fact that we were now sanctioning a body which was set up for 12 months and which was operating for the past 12 months. This is not part of my criticism but of the criticism of the Minister's own supporter, Deputy Lehane. I would ask the Minister to re-exam ine the sub-section and tell us what he thinks it means. By the time the Committee Stage comes along, if this gets a Second Reading, some of us will put our heads together and try to devise an amendment to put into words the limitations which I am trying to express.

You will get industrial development in this country if there is a recognition by the Government, first of all, that we have a very limited market in the country for manufacture and for manufacturers to be able to contemplate exports, the exports would have to be something exceptional and we would have to be blessed more than another country with its raw materials.

In the ordinary sense of competition with other countries, however, all other things being equal, our manufacturers start very heavily handicapped because of the small extent of the domestic market. I think that that aspect of the case has been admitted even by the Minister himself. I believe that the next thing we have to accept is that compared with some other countries, particularly those countries with which we will be in competition, we have protection for our workers which, while it may not be the last word, certainly gives them conditions of employment and rates of wages which cannot be described as sweat-shop conditions. Having to comply with these things our manufacturers are up against a second handicap from the commercial point of view. Thirdly, one has to recognise that the manufacturer here has to work to a limited margin of profits in exchange for the protection he gets. He is not allowed to speculate as manufacturers are in other countries. He may not buy raw materials at a time when he thinks it is cheap and may rise and he is not allowed to cash in on his judgment or take a loss on his judgment as the case may be. Under price control, manufacturers have to submit the cost of their materials at all times. If the price of the raw material goes up, they even have to get sanction, after examination, to increase their prices. That increase in prices is strictly regulated to what the Department thinks is a reasonable margin of profits to be accorded to the promoters over and above directors' fees in relation to their capital in the business.

All these things make it very difficult for manufacturers in this country to get into a position where they can be described, as they were recently, as racketeers, profiteers, robbers and I do not know what else. They served a very good and useful purpose during the war years because, if the industries which had been started in 1932 and continued to be established up to 1939 —and some even during the war years —had not been there, this country would have had much more suffering than it did have; the country did suffer a little, but if it were not for these industries there might have been suffering which we could not so easily overcome because of our position in a world at war.

One has to recognise that thanks are due to the people who took the worry, the trouble and the responsibility to develop these industries. Equally, thanks are due to the workers who, year after year, co-operated in bringing out an article that is a better product from the point of view of its finish and quality. Thanks are also due to the public who support Irish industries against the attractiveness of foreign goods at probably an equal or a lower price, and against the suggestion which, until recently, was quite universal here, that the article could not be any good because it was made at home.

I hope we are now getting to the point where it is not Fianna Fáil that is the protectionist party for the purpose of getting industrialisation further developed. I hope all sections of the community represented here will find favour with the expression of opinion that we must, because of the smallness of our nation, the smallness of our population and the limited opportunities of our manufacturers, give them support of a different nature by way of protection and assistance from unfair competition. I heard Deputy Davin saying a mouthful.

Apparently you did not hear Deputy Lemass or you would not be saying some of the things you are saying now.

I am talking of our industrial development and I do not know whether Deputy Davin is in favour of native industry.

Yes, without any qualification.

With protection included?

Of course.

That is a rather delayed "of course". And with a reasonable margin of profit to the promoters of the industries, and that the policy will not be supported by Deputy Davin that once an industry is started it should be taken off the robbers who started it? There is no answer to that. Those are the things the business community will require when they turn themselves into manufacturing industrialists, and it is about time the Dáil got it. Deputy Davin says that I do not say much with reference to what Deputy Lemass said.

You should have been listening to him.

I always take great care to read every word uttered by Deputy Lemass in this House, if I have not the honour and the pleasure of hearing him. I say without reservation that I subscribe to everything he said in this debate because I happen to know to what extent this nation is under a deep debt of gratitude to him for the industrial development already taking place. I happen to know of it not only in my own constituency but in the Deputy's. For every industry established since 1932 we can thank him, and every person who got employment in those industries can thank him, too. I will subscribe to everything he said to-day without even having heard him. That is an answer for Deputy Davin.

The setting up of this Industrial Development Authority is a very serious step. I do not know what consequences it will have. I do not know whether any consequences have flown from it since it was started within the past 12 months. Somebody said that there were industries started as a result of certain representations. I thought Deputy Con Lehane was going to give the names of them, but he did not mention one industry as having been started. I do not want to feel, even if this goes through, that there should be any doubt about the position, because we want industrial development.

He mentioned one—John Bull, Limited.

What is that?

Ask him when he comes back.

That is an old-established industry.

Does the Deputy suggest that that was the only one started? There must be a John Bull, Limited, other than the one Deputy Davin is referring to. I must seriously ask the Minister if he is satisfied that the establishment of this body will bring about a realisation of his hopes in regard to industrialisation, and that he will not damage the existing position? That is what we have to satisfy ourselves about. I cannot see any greater improvement or speeding up a result of this body being established than would be brought about if the Minister said to the section of his Department charged with the responsibility of examining proposals for new industries or extending existing ones: "Take over the operation of this measure and I will get you able assistants in the shape of four, five or six people from outside who have a point of view which you probably have not got, people who understand the labour aspect and the manufacturing aspect. I will rope them in even as full-time or part-time civil servants." The question of pay could be regulated. I do not see much difference if the individuals are placed in that position as against their position under this Bill. The experience and knowledge the officials have is very wide. They would benefit from mistakes made in the past, not necessarily by them but by industrialists. In that way we would get back to the position as it was when the war broke out.

Listening to Deputy Briscoe relating the sad rosary of the troubles industrialists or would-be industrialists have to face when, they contemplate the establishment of new industries, I wonder how we ever got any industries established. It amazes me how the miracle worker, Deputy Lemass, managed to do it during the war.

He was a miracle worker.

I am not questioning that. I think it is accepted subject, possibly, to the usual political diversions, that all sections desire to see the industrialisation of the country proceeding. It would be foolish on the part of any of us to deny that during the period from 1932 onwards a certain advance was made in industrialisation. It does not serve any good purpose to close our eyes to the bases we have already available on which to build and what gaps may still be required to be filled. Everybody unites in a pious wish for further industrialisation. It is when we come to decide how we are going to carry that policy further that we seem to differ.

Deputy Briscoe pointed out the many difficulties under which the would-be investor or industrialist operates. There were difficulties in regard to control of profits and prices, conditions of employment and certain regulations in regard to minimum wages, the Control of Manufactures Act and the location of industries. We had various regulations and conditions which Deputy Lemass, who was then the Minister, found it necessary to impose. They were imposed for a very good reason, although there might be some people who would differ with him in imposing them. Despite all the very high talk we have had about the value of the profit motive and the initiative of private enterprise, the plain brutal fact was that there were very few people who, of their own accord, would undertake to invest their money in this country during that period unless they were given guarantees which had to be measured by, and subject to, the question of public policy.

That is still the position. I have stated here on many occasions that I am not one of those who regard the profit motive as being of the outstanding and tremendous value which, apparently, the majority of the members of this House and the majority of the people of the country believe it to be. Neither do I believe that private enterprise is, in these days, the progressive factor it was in an earlier period, but my personal views are not going to determine national policy on this matter. We should have regard to the conditions in which we have to operate. It is likewise mandatory on those who believe in the profit motive and in private enterprise to be equally realistic, and to face up to the limitations in their case. One of the limitations is that to-day, in this country, it is practically impossible to get any individual who has capital and desires to invest it in industry to undertake the establishment of a particular industry without the active advice, active support and active assistance of the Government. Not only do such individuals require that active advice, assistance and support, but they require it in a very definite form, generally in the form of protection or in the limitation of imports, and in the placing of themselves in a privileged position if no other safeguards are provided for them.

Consequently, whether we like planning or not, it has become for us not a question of choice but one of necessity—it is so in other countries—in relation to industrial and economic development. Whether the planning is done by a private individual or by a group, or whether it is undertaken by the State is immaterial, but quite clearly that is so, because nobody can just walk along a road with his eyes shut and have no idea of where the road is leading to or what the objective is. There is undoubtedly, especially on the part of industrialists and those who claim to speak for them, the idea that they can have their cake and eat it: that they can have all the benefits of private enterprise and of unrestricted profits and, at the same time have the benefit of a national Government and its machinery to assist them in the establishment of industries and give them facilities which otherwise would not be available to protect them in relation to the home market or afford them facilities in the future, if possible, to engage in exports. They want all the benefits, and yet at the same time they object to the very real essentials which a Government on behalf of the community must impose.

The very fact that a person like Deputy Lemass, when he was a Minister, in his urgent desire to have industries established here in order to bring about the further industrialisation of the country—even in the light of his repeated belief in the profit motive and the value of private enterprise—still found it necessary to impose necessary limitations on those industrialists whom he either encouraged or assisted in establishing units in this country, is proof, in itself, that we cannot proceed just in a chaotic manner and leave everything to chance.

The main value which I see in this Bill is not that it is a perfect instrument to meet our general purpose in regard to industrialisation but that it is one step nearer a realisation of the fact that we have got to accept a certain degree of planning. That planning has to be given some direction and has to have in view some social purpose. Whether this particular machinery is the best available or not, is another matter that we can examine. It does seem to me that the extent to which we have already achieved a measure of industrialisation makes the next step in that process a little more difficult than the step we have already taken. Starting from 1932, there was a considerable field apparent to everybody in which an effort to develop industries could be undertaken. To the extent to which those efforts have achieved a measure of success, they make it more difficult for us now to find a future road along which to pursue a policy of industrialisation.

It is correct to say that we are still importing various types of articles, of quite considerable value, that we use here. If we take the bulk figure for imports it might appear that that figure offers a sufficient field in which to find a location for further industries but, when the bulk figure is broken down, it very often happens that the figures relating to individual articles represent such small numbers and create such technical problems in themselves, in the light of modern industrial needs, that the possibilities we envisaged when we first looked at the over-all figure disappear on closer examination.

The very fact that our further steps in regard to industrialisation must to-day be taken not merely in the light of the ordinary normal competition that is to be expected from outside but in the face of competition which is now quite clearly organised on a national basis in other countries, directed in accordance with their national policy and supported in so many cases by the full weight of the State machinery in those countries, again creates greater difficulties for us than we may have experienced in the past.

Deputy Briscoe, in the course of his remarks, referred to the cost of raw materials. It is quite well known that already we are up against that problem in so far as we find that the prices which are being charged to Irish industrialists for certain of their raw materials almost equal the prices at which articles manufactured abroad from these raw materials are imported into this country. That is not the outcome of private enterprise but of State enterprise working through and exercising its control over private enterprise. Whatever love, therefore, we may have for the good old days of unrestricted competition, of the profit motive and of reliance on the private individual, we must face the fact that all that has gone by the board, whether we believe in socialism or capitalism or anything else.

As a practical proposition, if we are going to see industrialisation carried a further stage in this country, it can only be done clearly and definitely with the whole-hearted support of whatever Government is in power, plus the whole-hearted support of all other groups in the community. All the machinery of Government, both in relation to the Civil Service apparatus and the financial and economic powers controlled by the Government, must be utilised to support and carry on that policy of industrialisation. To expect that private individuals to-day could undertake and carry out things that were possible 20 or 25 years ago is simply to indulge in an idle dream, and to doom ourselves to complete failure in so far as further industrialisation is concerned. I believe that that is accepted by all sides. It is accepted even by the most rabid upholders of the policy of manufacturers and industrialists and those whom, as I say, speak on behalf of private enterprise. But, while accepting that, they wish at the same time to relieve themselves of the obligations which that of necessity must impose upon them.

It is from that point of view that a Bill of this kind is important. As I see it, we have here the choice of two methods. One is the previous method which we have tried, namely, relying completely on the policy of the Government as carried out by a particular Minister and the initiative of the Minister and the ability of the Civil Service machine in the particular Department to give effect to the policy in respect to industrialisation. As I have said earlier, I think it is wrong to deny as much credit as should be duly given to the previous Minister for Industry and Commerce and, likewise, those civil servants who actively engaged with him in carrying on his policy of industrialisation. But, having paid tribute to these civil servants, we should at the same time recognise the defects inherent in the Civil Service machine in dealing with problems relating to industry particularly. I have never felt that the argument against State control in a general way was to be found in the defects and the weaknesses of civil servants as individuals or as a group. I personally do not feel that a civil servant is automatically a bureaucrat and feels that it is necessary for him to wrap up everything in the greatest amount of red tape. But, equally, I believe that, if we have an apparatus composed of people recruited, educated, and trained for a particular objective and for the service of a particular purpose, we are expecting more than we are entitled to look for if we think they can readily undertake an entirely different task, and the task that is set for civil servants is, in my opinion, one that makes them in many ways unsuited actively to initiate, advise and largely decide upon such a question as the carrying into effect of an industrial policy. They can play a wide and very valuable part in connection with that policy.

I believe, however, that if we stress in particular the words here in the first sub-section of Section 3, "to initiate proposals", that in itself suggests that we should have persons—I am not concerned at the moment with whether they represent labour or industry or any other interests in the community—who have been accustomed to and required to use their initiative and who have been applying that iniative to the problems that arise in and out of industry and the extension of industry. I frankly cannot see that we can expect them to come in a ready manner from the Civil Service apparatus.

It is from that point of view that I believe that some body such as is envisaged in this Bill is required in the present situation. I can readily understand that despite all the good wishes we may have for this body, it can, as some critics stated, become a means of delay. That criticism, however, is not in itself sufficient to condemn the proposal. It seems to me that that criticism should be directed more to the policy of the Government and the Minister in office rather than the machinery. If the composition of this body is a proper one, if the powers given to them are sufficient and suitable to their needs, then that body can be used as a means to expedite the industrial policy and not delay it. On the other hand, the most perfect body we can establish will not operate successfully unless the Government and the Minister are determined to see that the policy of industrialisation is carried out.

So far as the Bill is concerned, one of the fears I have for this body is that many of the tasks which, in the past, have been carried out by civil servants, particularly officers in the Department of Industry and Commerce, are, for convenience sake, going to be given to the new body. It is from that point of view that we should stress particularly that the main requirement of the new body is to initiate new proposals and schemes for the creation and development of Irish industries and to advise the Minister generally on how to carry out the policy with which we are all concerned.

One responsibility that I think should be placed to the smallest possible extent upon them is that set out in Section 3 (7) of advising the Minister in respect to "the imposition or remission of tariffs, or other protective or development measures". What I have in mind is advising him on the wide range of petty detailed work that is, as we know, inherent almost in a protectionist policy and which definitely has developed in this country since we applied it. If the examination of every application for a tariff, for even the importation of the smallest quantity of any particular article for the development of any little 2 × 4 trade or industry in some back room in a city street, for changing any existing tariff or quota, is to be regarded as part of the ordinary day-to-day responsibility and work of this authority, then, frankly, I do not see how they are going to carry out the main purpose of the Bill.

I hope that the Minister will keep clearly in the forefront that the purpose of this authority is to use their initiative to look for openings, to find possibilities for the establishment of new industries or the development of existing ones, to find ways and means of encouraging industrialists to invest in and open up new industries and, even, where all else fails, to advise the Government that the Government themselves, directly and without going to any other body, should step in and establish industrial units where there are gaps clearly existing which require to be filled in so far as the economic needs of the country are concerned. If this is to be done, this body must be relieved of a great deal of the petty, detailed work that will inevitably devolve upon them if the requirement in Section 3 (7) is to be given effect to.

So far as I am aware, the present position of the authority acting under the administrative powers of the Minister is that it has been supplied from the Department of Industry and Commerce with staff specialised in matters affecting industry. It seems to me that, in addition to these, the authority will also require, and should be supplied with, expert administrative staff of a type that cannot be so readily obtained from the Civil Service. It must have a highly trained technical staff, if not on a full-time basis at least on such a consultative basis as will enable the authority to have ready and continuous access to it as and when required.

Deputy Cowan finished on a note that must surprise even the most ardent supporter of industrialisation in this country. He said he hoped the Minister would not depend on the authority to initiate and bring forward proposals for new industries, but that the Minister, if he woke up some morning and had an idea that a new industry could be established, would see that that industry was established before nightfall. Possibly, I am unfair to Deputy Cowan in paraphrasing him like that; but, that proposal is indicative to some extent of the fact that he was overlooking certain very essential factors. No matter how much we may agree that a certain type of industry is required to fill a clearly apparent gap in the supply of a commodity, or a gap in our general industrial and technical machine, or because of an emergency in the future, no matter how simple the establishment of that industry may appear it still will require extensive and detailed study and consideration.

I take it, it is for that purpose this authority is being established. At the same time if we agree, on the one hand, that the authority should exercise the initiative referred to in Section 3 we must also agree with Deputy Cowan that, having established the authority, the Minister and the Government have not thereby relieved themselves of responsibility in regard to industrial policy as a whole. Neither have they relieved themselves of the obligation of considering ways and means whereby the industrial potential of the country can be increased. The setting up of the authority must be regarded, on the one hand, as the initial step in the establishment of a piece of machinery which can be helpful and effective. Equally, it must be regarded as a piece of machinery which can work on its own initiative or can be set in gear by the Government or the responsible Minister. Neither the Minister nor the authority should attempt to pass on the buck.

Another very important matter has been touched upon in other debates in this House. It arises again here. I refer to the thorny problem of the relationship between bodies such as this and the Department of Finance. I do not raise this particular matter merely for the sake of criticism. If we establish machinery of this type, expecting it to work at high speed and with a full realisation of the needs of the country, we cannot at the same time permit a brake to be put upon it, relating that brake to the speed at which the Department of Finance normally progresses. I do not know whether or not we can solve that particular problem. When I received a copy of the Bill I immediately looked up the Report of the Commission on Vocational Organisation. That commission deals with the National Economic Council at page 671 and they stress there the drawback that arises because of the preponderating position of the Department of Finance. Everyone recognises that position.

The question arises as to what extent that position will arise within the actual Government and Civil Service apparatus generally in relation to this special type of machinery we are establishing under this measure. The commission, after hearing the views of expert witnesses, went on record to the effect that the right of the Department of Finance to examine proposals of other Departments involving expenditure and to examine these proposals, not merely from the financial viewpoint but also in regard to their intrinsic merits, leads to duplication and delay and resulting costs. Further on, they lay it down that one of the serious aspects of the matter is that the examination of a proposal— which, in this particular case, would be a proposal originating with the Industrial Development Authority having been carefully considered by them and their technical experts and subsequently considered by the Minister, endorsed by him and then transmitted to the Department of Finance— is carried out in that Department not by a person of equal standard, equal experience and equal appreciation of the industrial and economic needs of the country, but possibly by a relatively junior person, or persons. On the basis of an examination in its first stages by that person or persons, who, quite clearly, has or have not got the same qualifications as those who originated the proposals, examined them and endorsed them before they went to the Department of Finance, the senior officers of that Department will formulate their decision. If that is the position in the new industrial authority and if that authority is asked to operate in that fashion, then I can readily see grounds for criticism. If that is to be the position this authority will be a delaying one rather than something which will speed up our industrial policy.

I agree that that problem cannot be solved by the Minister in charge of the present Bill. To the extent that the Government is sincere in its desire to go ahead with industrialisation, the Government must find a solution to that problem. Most of the members of this House can relate their own experiences in this particular respect. If the heavy hand of the Department of Finance is to operate on this new type of machinery that machinery will not achieve the results we expect.

In connection with the work of the authority there are certain factors that must be emphasised. I have repeatedly listened to Deputies emphasising and stressing the overwhelmingly agricultural character of our country and its economy and taking the view apparently that, if we succeed in placing agriculture in a healthy and prosperous condition, we shall solve the problem of unemployment and the drift from the land; it has even been said that we shall thereby solve the problem of emigration. I think that view is completely wrong.

It is an extensive view held by very many people. I believe that if we succeed in making our agricultural industry more prosperous, more efficient and better equipped, to that extent will we not only fail to provide any greater measure of employment but we shall possibly add to the problem of unemployment that already exists. One of the aspects, I think, of Irish agriculture which we sometimes overlook is that the amount of manpower we utilise in our agriculture is totally out of proportion to modern day trends in agricultural production. To the extent that we bring our agricultural methods into better alignment with modern day standards, to that extent we may find ourselves with surplus manpower on our hands. It is because of that that the development of industry is so important. I believe that the only hope we have of providing full and adequate employment for our people in this country is not the development of agriculture in its direct form but rather the development of industry and particularly industry that can be based on a close relationship to agriculture and engaged in the working of agricultural by-products. That is one aspect to which we should pay very great attention.

Deputy Briscoe pointed out that in many ways we lack advantages in developing our industries which will make it possible for us to achieve that result as against other countries. Quite clearly, from the point of view of modern industry, we probably lack everything required for the establishment of industry. We have no particular raw materials that are special to ourselves. We have no particular supplies of cheap power. We have already—probably that is a drawback for any industrialist—achieved a certain standard of wages and working conditions which in themselves do not provide an advantage over other countries and, finally, we are a small country with a small population providing a very limited and inadequate market.

We are situated on the very edge of the European continent and we are thus cut off from the large centres of population in a different way from small countries like Denmark, Holland and Belgium. Therefore, our possibilities for industrial expansion are particularly and peculiarly limited. Whatever avenues we are to find must largely be based (1) upon our domestic needs— the provision of those commodities which we are still importing and which we can, within reason, manufacture here; (2) upon the development of industries that are based on and related to our basic industry, agriculture, and (3) — to a very limited extent — upon seeing in what way we might find openings for new industrial fields based on new techniques which are not particularly dependent on particular supplies of raw material or power. How far that is possible, frankly, I do not know but that is the type of problem for which we require machinery of the type envisaged in the Bill to study it.

I agree with some of the other speakers who have urged the need of trying to locate our industries in the rural parts of the country—the smaller towns and villages. While I am naturally interested in Dublin, I think that, even from the point of view of the interests of Dublin, it is essential that we try to make our policy in regard to the location of industry as favourable as possible towards the rural parts of the country. But again, if we want industry thus located, we have to interfere with the right of the individual to establish his factory anywhere he wants to do so. That is why, in our discussions on this matter, we meet with so many contradictory and confusing views. For example, a farmer Deputy who, I suppose, is the most stalwart champion of private enterprise, wants an industry established in his nearest town. In order to get that factory for the benefit of that town and for the benefit of his nearest neighbours somebody has to be given power— possibly in an extreme form—so far as, say, a non-national is concerned, to say that if he wants to come in to this country and start an industry here he must go there and, as far as a national is concerned, to try by advice and influence and various forms of indirect pressure to induce him to go to that particular place. But in each case we have to exercise either persuasion or authority in order to achieve the particular object we agreed upon. Similarly in regard to the question of raw material. If we are going to have regard to the special position in which we find ourselves and to the fact that we have got one main outstanding industry, we have to have regard to that in the case of our raw materials and of our manpower.

So far as manpower is concerned, it appears to me that one of the weaknesses we have experienced in the past is the lack of trained technicians available to us in our own country. There is the difficulty that in order to get that supply it has to be trained. There has been a widespread development in our technical schools, but yet I am afraid —because the experience of recent years has shown that there have been only a small number of openings available for the boys and girls prepared to go through these courses—that there is a reluctance to engage in those courses that are of particular value to industry. In Dublin, probably the greatest demand on the technical courses is not for those of a purely technical character but for those of a commercial character. We have almost a flood of persons with a certain training in stenography and clerical duties pouring out of the schools and at the same time very limited numbers becoming available with the necessary technical background for industry as a whole.

On a number of occasions we have considered Bills of this type establishing certain boards for particular purposes. We have recognised that in so far as the personnel of such boards is concerned—and we are in a difficulty now inasmuch as we are discussing a board whose personnel is known and inasmuch as we are making certain provisions relating to their remuneration and period of employment— having taken up these public appointments to the benefit of public policy, they are entitled to certain consideration in respect of the service they give. I notice that there is provision in that respect in this Bill in regard to one member of the existing board. I think the Minister should consider the type of provisions we have embodied, say, in the Transport Bill in respect of superannuation for the members of the Industrial Development Authority and whether or not such provisions should also be embodied in the present Bill. If we are going to have on this board, irrespective of the present period, men or women with all the necessary qualifications, experience and background, not only will it be necessary to pay them adequate salaries but in many cases, because they will have to give up other employment and other interests, it will be necessary I think to give them some form of security in respect of such services as they may give. It is a principle which has been embodied in other legislation and its omission from the present measure is probably an oversight. If we have an industrial authority and the members give service of five years, ten years or 15 years, they will have established a claim upon us the same as that of members of other boards, and I do not think we should overlook that matter when the Bill is going through the House on its remaining stages.

Major de Valera

Might I ask the Minister a question at this stage? References have been made to what this authority has done in the past ten months. Could we, for the purpose of getting down to earth on this debate, be told what precisely the authority has done in the past ten months? So far, we have not been given that information. Has it really done anything? That question logically leads me to ask this on the Bill as a whole: what does the Bill do, what executive action will follow on foot of this Bill? In other words, what practical effect will flow from this Bill? When I take up the Bill and read it, I find in the title: "Industrial Development Authority." Now the word "authority" connotes to any person reading it somebody who not only is in a position to get information but is in a position to get something done. Again, we see the word "autonomous" in Section 3. That suggests independence. Incidentally, I cannot recollect any particular place where the precise meaning of that word in such a connection can be ascertained. It might be a matter for the Minister to tell us when concluding, what precisely is intended by the word. The word "authority" as I have said, connotes some body or person in a position to do something and the word "autonomous" suggests that it is independent. In other words, it will be unfettered in the carrying out of its powers.

When one peruses these powers, one finds that this, being a statutory body will have no powers and no possibility of acting except in so far as such powers or such possibility of acting are specifically conferred by the measure. What are the powers specifically conferred by the measure? First, to initiate proposals and schemes. The word is "initiate." There is nothing about execution. To initiate proposals or to initiate a scheme may mean nothing more than making a recommendation. The point is that there is nothing about execution. We immediately ask ourselves what power is being given under that. Then we have, in paragraph 2: "to survey". That merely connotes some action to get information. Again we, have "to advise". That again connotes action in an advisory capacity. It is not executive. In paragraph 4 we also have the words "to advise", and in paragraph 5 the words: "to give advice and guidance". But again nothing about doing anything.

In paragraph 6 we have the words "to investigate"—that is, to find out information. In paragraph 7 we have the words "to examine proposals". All these are powers of surveying, with the reservation I have already made in regard to the word "initiate" and finally to advise the Minister. These are the only powers conferred on the authority other than the powers given in Section 5 and certain incidental powers given under Section 8. So far as practical achievement is concerned, the only powers conferred are those given by this section and they are powers purely of advice, survey or information. The Deputy—I forget who it was—who characterised this body as nothing more than a further commission, has this much to be said in favour of his contention that, in common with other commissions mentioned, this body has powers only of survey, report and advice. There is nothing in this Bill to get the wheels of industry going. In other words, there is no executive power in the Bill.

What does "initiate" mean?

Major de Valera

"To initiate proposals." Let us parse that.

If that is all that is in the Bill, what is the Deputy getting so hot and bothered about?

Major de Valera

Is it?

The Deputy says it is and I am asking what he is getting so hot and bothered about.

Major de Valera

If I get a statement from the Minister that that is all that is in the Bill it might shorten my speech very much.

The Deputy has asserted with great emphasis that that is all that is in it.

Major de Valera

Does the Minister contradict that?

I shall let you know later.

Major de Valera

All right. We are told that this authority shall initiate proposals and schemes. These are the words used—"to initiate proposals". What is a proposal? A proposal certainly is not the doing of a thing, so that to initiate a proposal is in the same category I have mentioned. To initiate a scheme, I grant you, might mean much or it might mean little, but a scheme starts with plans and to initiate it is not carrying it through, even if it gives the board the power——

It would not have the power to carry it through if it had not the power to initiate it.

On a point of order, Deputies are being continuously interrupted by the Minister and I think that should not be permitted.

Major de Valera

To initiate a proposal does not give power to carry it through and for that reason this Bill does nothing more than set up a board in an advisory capacity with powers of investigation. I do say that from the point of view of positively developing industry, or doing anything in the industrial sphere, the Minister has no further powers than when he came into office and any recommendation or proposal from this committee will for its implementation, be ultimately dependent on the powers that the Minister already has in an Executive capacity, whatever they may be. There is no need to get excited about that. There is no harm in finding out what the full content of this measure is.

Deputy Lemass does not agree.

I am asking that Deputies from this side be allowed to speak without interruption. Deputies on the other side were not interrupted.

Major de Valera

That is as far as this section is concerned. However, this commission, if you like to call it that—I am not calling it that in any disparaging sense; I am referring to it as a commission because the only authority it has in the common or garden sense is to go and make investigations—has authority to do that under Section 3. In other words, it is a new inquiry, an advisory board or commission but executive action will depend on the Minister. There has been a lot of talk about sending industries here or there. The planning of industries will come up and the question will be asked: "Do they want an industry here or do they want an industry there?" There is a lot to be said for the planning and the spacing of industries, but what I want to point out is that if this Bill is passed in its present form and if nothing is done to give the Minister further powers, then the Minister will have no further powers in the matter than he had when he came into office and the matter will remain a proposal merely.

Again, I have no wish to invite interruption but I think there is some justification for Deputies saying that this is simply another advisory commission. We know from experience what to expect from such commissions, particularly from our experience of the Commission on Emigration, from which we may get a report in the next few months according to the latest reply we have had from the Tánaiste. We have had experience of other such bodies. Many of them have given excellent reports; many of them have not been so helpful, but, with that experience behind us, one has the feeling that this Bill, as it stands, can make no very great contribution to the solution of this industrial problem, and it is for that reason, that I have asked the question: What has this body done to date? It has been ten months in operation which is more or less unprecedented, but which has not been questioned, and the point is what has it done. It would be a great help in dealing with this matter if we knew the answer to that question.

With regard to Section 5, this body is given these very wide powers of investigation. Under that section, coupled with the penalty section, this authority has practically the power to carry out a complete investigation or inquisition into any business whatever. Some Deputies may say that that is a good thing, while others may be more reserved as to whether that should be so or not. I am not commenting on that aspect at the moment. Under this section, which is the section which gives it its greatest power, the authority is empowered to act, so to speak, as a court of inquisition into the affairs of any business, private or otherwise. That as I say, may be a question which different Deputies will approach in different ways.

I grant that the Minister has to a certain extent, made provision for secrecy, but nevertheless there is a clear exception in favour of the Minister in that regard. In other words, every little piece of information collected by this body, which is given practically unrestricted powers of inquisition, may be furnished to the Minister, may be passed to him through the usual channels. I wonder if that is not a little too sweeping. There are certain other activities in the State, notably revenue activities, for which very wide powers of information are necessary, and I grant that it is necessary for the Minister or anybody else in dealing with a problem in modern times to secure information, but whether this particularly wide power in the case of this body is desirable is a different matter.

The best way in which I can approach this matter without being acrimonious is to look at it from the two divergent viewpoints because if you look at it from both sides, you will get the matter, so to speak, in perspective. One point of view from which one can look at it is that which was so consistently and frequently expressed up to very recently by the Party who posed as the conservative Party. The other is the viewpoint more or less frankly stated by Deputy Larkin earlier.

These are two different approaches to the problem, and, in considering them, I could scarcely do better than to go back to the debate on the Industrial Efficiency and Prices Bill and to quote the inimitable words of the Minister for Agriculture. I could hardly improve on the verbiage and I will let his quotation put that point of view. In that debate, at columns 741 and 742, Volume 108, the Deputy who is now Minister for Agriculture, referring to the provision giving power to interefere with private property, in Parts V and VI of the Bill, said:—

"Even the ardent members of our own Labour Party in this country dream dreams of planning everything in the silly pursuit of a prosperous proletariat raised to the level of a universal bourgeoisie. But let anybody propose to Deputy Martin O'Sullivan that I should plan him and the poor man would get a nervous breakdown—and he would be perfectly right. Can the members of this House imagine the feelings of an individual who has invested his capital in an industrial undertaking in this country; spent his years learning, as he thinks, how best to run it; proud of his own particular processes; contemplating those of his neighbours and saying to himself: ‘Well I learned my trade. I know how to do it my own way and good wine needs no bush. I do not have to waste money on advertising or anything else. People come to my door for my goods because I produce them the right way.' He gets a postcard some morning to say that Moses is coming round to visit him—with the Section 49 in his fist.

"In due course Moses comes in and announces that he has made a report to the Minister, having conducted an inquiry at this man's residence or place where he carries on his business, and that the Minister now desires Moses to convey information to the victim, the bulrush, that he has made a direction in respect of the poor bulrush's business, requiring the bulrush to make in accordance with the Minister's direction such changes in relation to the undertaking as appear to the Minister to be necessary to promote general efficiency, whether in respect of products, materials used, method of production, equipment, premises, management, methods of purchasing, selling or marketing, recruitment, training or employment of labour, costs of production, distribution, overhead expenses, capital structure or otherwise. Have the members of this House ever heard such fantastic rubbish in their lives? Some tulip who was born in Rathmines, educated in Synge Street, who never travelled further afield than Kildare Street and Merrion Street or maybe got as far as the Castle is quite prepared to drop down into any man's business, north, south, east or west, and say: ‘Now, look. You are a bit old-fashioned. I am from Merrion Street. I know it all.'"

That is the extreme point of view, but it does express very forcibly what some members of the Government who are producing this Bill thought at the time about such measures and it does show, I presume, that it is possible to argue about provisions of this nature, as to their desirability or otherwise.

Another aspect that should be considered on that side of the story in such a connection is whether such a limited body can cater for all industry and whether you are going to get a better return from such a body embracing all industry rather than the specialised elements of the Department. Again, the present Minister for Agriculture said:

"Where in the name of common-sense is the know-all to be found who will supervise the efficiency of furniture factories, boot factories, breweries, mills, tin-tack factories, nail factories, shipyards and biscuit factories? Is it not fantastic for this House to envisage the appointment of an individual charged with that responsibility?"

One could go on quoting ad lib. from that debate. A number of pertinent questions were asked, before the view-point changed, by the present Minister for Finance, as far back as when this industrial drive was started in 1932, when all the opposition to it was made. He asked a number of questions relating to such a matter and they will be found in Vol. 41, col. 1248. He goes on:

"May the Minister decide, in his wisdom, if a firm wants to operate on a single-managed unit in this country, that it is better that he should operate in three concerns and that they should be allocated where he wants them fixed? Can an establishment have different conditions for different parts of the country where it is going to try and establish an industry? Are all these interests under his control and at his absolute discretion, unaided by any outside body? And if so, does he consider himself justified in describing his attitude upon this as moderate, and describing the Bill as moderate?"

That was the Control of Manufactures Act. That is one point of view. We on this side of the House never subscribed to that. We could not let laissez faire go riot. But it was the point of view of the Fine Gael Party in all these matters. Even on the industrial prices matter, Deputy Dockrell followed in the same strain.

He is not a Deputy now.

Major de Valera

I beg the Chair's pardon, I cannot quote him. In any case, there is no necessity for further quotations. That was one point of view. The question immediately arose: "Has that Party changed their attitude?" They are the controlling Party. There is a question of good faith in this, as in other matters, and there is no use in shirking the issue before I move on to the other side of the picture. How are we to take it now? They are the largest part of the Government, they control the majority in the Cabinet. If there is a question of the Government having collective responsibility and the vote of the majority holds good, they have, with Deputy Dillon, the majority in the Cabinet.

Anyone is entitled to ask, in view of the views expressed on previous occasions, in view of the particular attitude which one was led to expect, whether we are to interpret this Bill introduced by the Minister now as being what it appears to be, a serious effort to proceed with active industrialisation, and that there is a serious intention to put the powers that are embodied in Section 5 into active operation, to get the reports provided for in Section 3 and then to take executive action on that matter. I think we are entitled to ask that definitely, because the fact is that this Bill does nothing, beyond enabling reports to be made to the Minister, leaving the ultimate executive responsibility on the Minister for action. That fact alone, coupled with the previous professions of policy and what we always understood about that particular Party, makes one ask the question: "Beyond another commission, are we going to have something done?" The Minister will undoubtedly answer all that, and he should.

The Minister has attacked some members of this Party for undermining confidence. Everyone is completely entitled to discuss this Bill, provided he is relevant. The question I ask the Minister is: "Are we justified in having confidence that the industrial development which is being talked about, but for the positive implementation of which no executive provision is made in this Bill, will be pursued?"

I mentioned that that was one side of the story. On the other side of the case, I mentioned the view-point of Deputy Larkin about State control. I have dealt with the Fine Gael approach on the one hand. Now let us see Deputy Larkin's approach. He said quite frankly here that it is necessary in these days to have some power—I think he used the word "power"—over private interests, as inducement does not work. I will say this for the Bill, that by virtue of the provisions in Section 5 for complete information, it is arguable that that is the thin end of the wedge.

That wedge was shaped in 1947.

Major de Valera

On the other hand, we have the protestations of the Minister and his colleagues on previous occasions, but the net point comes down to this—what does this Bill do in effect? Beyond giving this inquisitorial power to this body and constituting it an authority in that sense, what better will it do in regard to industry as a whole than could be done with the machinery available to the Minister heretofore? Looking at the Bill from both sides, so to speak, as I have been trying to do it, as one approaching it impersonally, the difficulty I have is that it is neither hot nor cold. It could be hot or it could be cold, and because it is nothing, because it is indefinite, because it is colourless, I think it is not worth the accepting. A thing that is colourless, that could be hot or cold, always has facets to it that are indefinite, and if they are indefinite they are dangerous. That is why we are opposing this measure. We could have some sympathy with the Minister if some definite procedure were brought before us. There was something in the Prices Bill the Minister mentioned a moment ago, a definite procedure was laid down there from the start to the finish, the steps to be taken were shown and the powers were provided. That Bill provided not only for initiation but for execution, for finality in regard to the matters concerned there. That is not so in this Bill. If it were like that, dependent on its form, the attitude might be different. If it had not the provision in Section 5, without having any compensating benefit, we might say: "This Bill is completely innocuous, like many other commissions, it is not worth fighting about; you can have it." The trouble is that this provision, coupled with nothing but an advisory power for the Minister, makes it, to my mind, objectionable, and for that reason we oppose it.

I am going to resist—though it was hard to resist it, especially when reading the reports of the past debates— the temptation to quote Fine Gael speeches dealing with the attitude towards private property and industrialists and interference and that sort of thing. When all is said and done, it is just as well that I should not refer to those matters. I would like to refer, however, to some of the problems which arise in connection with this Bill. I asked the Minister a few weeks ago about one industry. It was about the manufacture of nitrogenous fertilisers here—and I note that to-night Deputy Larkin mentioned industries that could be properly correlated with agriculture. I asked this question for two reasons. Here was an industry which would be of great importance to our agriculture and to our life here in peace time and which would be also of paramount importance in time of emergency. It is a matter that should receive immediate attention.

Before the war, proposals for such an industry had got to the extent of being something more than merely mooted. The war intervened and, of course, it was impossible to get plant, and so forth. The matter was referred to Ceimicí Teoranta. That was nearly three years ago. The project, as the Minister agreed with me at Question Time a few weeks ago, would also have the advantage of being a practical step in repatriating our sterling assets.

For the information of Deputies, I would like to refer to the answers I got on the same day. We were told that sulphate of ammonia was imported in the year 1949 to the value of £388,579, nitrate of soda to the value of £118,096; compound manures—other sorts, £379,400. In reply to another question the Minister said:—

"Proposals for the manufacture of a nitrogenous fertiliser, sulphate of ammonia, based on the nitrogen fixation process, are under consideration by the Industrial Development Authority. Until the authority has completed its consideration of the matter and has made a recommendation, I will not be in a position to to say whether the proposals will be proceeded with."

In further reply to a reference by me to the world situation the Minister said:—

"I appreciate the importance of it. I can assure the Deputy that there will be no avoidable delay in the matter."

Then there was a question of sterling assets. There was a proposal, which, before the war had got to the stage of having the chemical experts' recommendation on the matter. I need not go into the various processes involved. I understand that they had got to the stage of negotiations with a foreign firm for the procuring of plant. It had got very nearly to the contract stage for getting the plant here. Unfortunately, affairs in the country from which the plant was to be procured changed for the worse. That was as far back as the end of 1938.

The war intervened. Immediately after the war, this project was one of the priorities referred to Ceimicí Teoranta because, even if we never needed the lesson, we learned during the war the paramount importance of fertilisers. I wonder do Deputies realise the prices we paid for fertilisers during the war. There was one fertiliser, the ordinary price of which would be in the region of £4 per ton, which went to £29 a ton in one phase of the war. We lost two ships importing fertilisers.

With these lessons behind us, the preliminary investigation having been carried out, this matter was passed over, two or three years ago, to Ceimicí Teoranta. This industrial authority, that has been so much boosted, has been in operation for ten months. There is a very threatening world situation. There is the case established, on the finances, on our war experience, on general grounds. Preliminary investigation has been done. Surely, if there is anything about which we could have a positive result from this body, if it were the business-like body that we have been hearing about, it should be this matter.

Considerations of that nature make one wonder whether we are doing the best thing in passing a Bill of this kind, whether we are not, with the best will or the best intentions in the world, unconsciously indulging in a certain form of escapism in regard to such problems. All the planning, surveying, investigations, reports, examinations and statements are not worth anything if you fail to do the practical thing and get a result. We might talk about this project for ever and about all the examination and effort that either this Government or the last Government put into it but all these things count for nothing if, in the end, we do not in fact produce the fertilisers that go in the soil and grow the grub. Let us realise that. Passing Bills, setting up bodies will not do what a lot of the little backlane factories that have been criticised were doing because, at least, they were making something.

These words may sound a bit hard but sometimes it is necessary to stress matters of this nature to make us realise where we are going with this whole thing. I am afraid that we have not such an awful lot of time before us in which to exploit whatever favourable situation we have at the moment. I do not want to approach the question from the point of view of scare of war or emergency. I am looking at it from both points of view. I think everybody will agree that the indications for a possible crisis are rather worse than we would like them to be. On the other hand, even if you do avoid it, there is no getting away from the fact that this is a transitional stage. All the signs are there. Every day one reads the papers and finds there is an indication to prepare for a crisis. Even if that crisis does not come, the present situation is favourable for developing industry and for developing this country. That favourable opportunity, like all opportunities, will be a fleeting one. Whether it is through avoidance of the war threat and things opening back, so to speak, into what is commonly called normality, if there is such a thing, or not, this is the time to prepare for what is coming in either case. It is also a time to prepare for the crisis, if that is coming. The point is, having regard to the probable importance of the year 1952 and the period from 1954 to 1956, if you look at it from the military preparations point of view, time is now precious. If we are serious in going about this business, surely it would be better for the Minister to seize upon the fairly obvious and essential things that should be done—there can be very little controversy about what these are —such as, for instance, the nitrogen fixation process that I was talking about—instead of waiting for perfection, for reports and the interminable delays always associated with commissions.

This matter is of some importance, too, in another way. Suppose I leave for a moment my question-mark as to whether the Bill should be passed at all or not. Where is this body, which in the abstract seems all right, hanging? Where does it tie in with technical liaison, for instance? Remember, you have a number of things to coordinate, as was mentioned by Deputy Larkin. You have the Chemicals Company and the Minerals Company and the Bureau of Standards and Industrial research. The Minerals Company is important from the point of view of raw materials.

And the cement factory.

Major de Valera

How are they corelated? Suppose the industrial body wants to proceed on a particular line, and suppose it wants to have some investigations made on the technical aspect, how does it proceed? Whose recommendation does it accept?

Another important angle is: how will this body, in its planning of industrial development, relate to the other plans of the State? I will make no apology for dealing specifically with the possibility of a crisis, because I think, as we have said on a Defence Forces Bill recently, we must in all sobriety take these matters into account at the moment.

On a point of order. Perhaps the Deputy would allow me to make a point of order.

Major de Valera

Certainly.

I am reluctant in any way to suggest that the Deputy should be restricted in his wanderings, but surely there should be some limit to where a Deputy may wander on the Second Reading of a Bill like this?

The Second Stage is the widest stage of a Bill.

I understand that.

The Deputy said that he is relating various activities such as the Minerals Company and the Chemicals Company, to the body.

The Deputy will relate the planets to it in a moment.

Major de Valera

I was referring to Deputy Larkin's speech. If Deputy Larkin was not wandering, I am not.

The Deputy should not flatter himself like that.

Major de Valera

There were other speeches to which no exception was taken. I think I am entitled to relate this to a problem in industrial development at the moment if we are dealing with industrial development. Industrial development at the moment cannot be completely divorced from our defence requirements and I am using the word "defence" in its broadest sense. Take, for example, the question of the nitrogen fixation business. That alone has an important defence bearing.

The defence aspect does not arise.

Major de Valera

No, but the industrial angle does. The question of the activities of the body that this Bill proposes to set up is tied up with the question of supplies during an emergency, supplies needed by either civil defence or military defence. Is there any provision for liaison or co-ordination or is this body to make recommendations in vacuo on the hypothesis of peace and ignore all the other facets of the case which would influence other Departments? When you put it that way you see one of the difficulties with all these commissions.

That has nothing to do with the board.

Major de Valera

This is in effect a commission.

It is not a commission.

Major de Valera

I will call it "the body" to comply with the Chair. One of the troubles with a body of this nature is that it does not look beyond its own circumscribed sphere and it does not allow perturbations outside its sphere to influence it. It works on the hypothesis of conventional peace. It goes ahead on the hypothesis that circumstances will remain as they are at the time it is set up, that is, in time of peace and that is a weakness.

It is likely to behave in a common-sense way.

Major de Valera

Behaving in a common-sense way means having foresight, keeping your feet on the ground and reserving for yourself the right to make a decision when the crisis breaks upon you. It means not burying your head in the sand. In any event, there are in this Bill the objections that have been mentioned. We have been criticised for opposing it. We have opposed it for the reasons which have already been given. I again ask the Minister to give us an answer and I for one will be very glad to have it if there is an objective answer to any argument I have advanced. If we could proceed in that way here we would do pretty well. I would be very glad to know what practical result has been achieved by this body to date and, as far as the Minister can demonstrate it, what practical advantage it has sufficient to offset and justify the disadvantages of the inquisitorial powers which are covered by Section 5. I for one will be only too glad to admit a justification for them and if necessary to reconsider my attitude, but that will need substantial justification showing substantial results traceable to the executive power of this authority in the past. It must be shown that it will itself achieve something that cannot be achieved without it or that can best be achieved with it if one is to accept the machinery involved. There is a semblance in this of an evasion by the Minister but the responsibility remains the Government's and the Minister's; it is the Minister in the end who will decide and who will act. The only advantage to him is that the body will have powers of planning and surveying.

Again I ask the question I started with and I also ask what the Minister contemplates in the way of the further powers necessary to implement any recommendations which will be made. The Minister has no further powers in regard to implementation. This matter has been mentioned by other Deputies who have said that it would be desirable to have them. I am not saying whether it would or not, but I think he will want more powers in order to get the effects he wants, and those powers must come later because they are not in the Bill. This matter can be looked at from two points of view. Some Deputies will say that we will have to have directing power from the State. Others have mentioned interference with private enterprise and they say that this is a move towards socialism. I would look at it from the point of view of seeing what we can do for the benefit of the community, leaning as far as we can towards freedom and as little as possible towards interference.

As Deputy Lemass said on the Industrial Efficiency Bill, one finds oneself in the position that only a fool would take the responsibility without the power. To the degree to which a Government take the responsibility, and properly take it, I think everybody will concede that they should take the power. How far they should take the responsibility is another day's work. Having regard to the attitude of one-half of the Coalition in the past on the one side, and the attitude of the other half on the other side, this Bill raises the very interesting question, where is the Coalition going on this matter?

The Deputy is like "Leanna Machree's" dog. Did you ever hear that?

Major de Valera

Will you answer my question?

I certainly will.

I am firmly of the opinion that this Bill will be an impediment to industry instead of any attempt to improve it. I believe it will be only a case of the holding up of decisions by this authority, just the same as the other bodies that have already been set up, such as the Bread and Flour Inquiry Commission. That should have had a very important bearing on industry, but even after a couple of years we have not had any decision yet —they have not even made a report. Then we have a body set up in connection with emigration and we cannot get any report from them. We have a lot of talk about setting up a body to look after education. We had another body dealing with education and called the Roe Commission.

Is it in order for the Deputy to discuss, in a general way, other commissions? Surely that is making the discussion too wide?

Deputy McGrath has not gone very far. I am giving him an opportunity to become relevant.

There must be a few tin tacks over in that seat making that chap jump up so often. I believe that this body will just be another one of those bodies that will, instead of pushing industry, delay it. I will give Deputy O'Higgins a small idea of my experience in this connection. A firm in Cork wanted to import some parts in order to assemble some loose-leaf ledgers. I went to the Department. This was very soon after this authority was appointed. I was told in the Department that the matter was referred to the Industrial Development Authority to know whether they would allow these parts in duty free or not. I telephoned the official for three weeks running and then he told me he had not yet got a decision on the matter. He advised me, for the sake of the duty on the couple of pounds worth of things, that it would be as well to pay it because he could not get a decision. The Minister can look that up in the records if he wants to. If that is the case in regard to small things, how many years will it take them to plan for any industry that may be required?

They are doing something in the Deputy's constituency, but apparently he does not know it.

There were things done in the Deputy's constituency and you were doing everything in your power to oppose them. I am glad you referred to the Deputy's constituency. When you were in that constituency——

The Deputy ought to speak in the third person, not in the second.

When the Minister was in that constituency he said that he had to take off his hat to Cork when he saw a very small exhibition of what Cork can make.

Hear, hear.

The Minister cannot point out so many industries that were started during his time or during the Cumann na nGaedheal Government's time. He can go down the Quays of Cork and see Dunlop's, who are supplying tyres for the whole country. He can see the expansion of the flour mills and the big silos they put up there, and Sunbeam Wolsey and the woollen mills.

The Chair cannot see the relevancy of all this.

With all due respect, it was not I who drew my constituency into this discussion, and I think I am entitled to reply to the cross-examination or the interruption of the Minister.

You are forgetting Ford's.

I am not forgetting them. They were doing very little until Fianna Fáil came into power. Fords were practically shut down, and you know that very well. I think the less the Minister has to say about my constituency the better for his own policy. Without any authority like this, Fianna Fáil started the cement factories and the sugar factories.

Be careful now.

And they started rural electrification.

They started all the electric power stations and the turf industry without any help at all or without a body like this to hold them up. Some of the industries started during that time were very seriously hampered by the present Minister and other members of his Government. Seafield Fabrics in Youghal had to be closed down because of the flooding of the country with dumped goods. The same applied to Sunbeam Wolsey. They had to put off most of their staff and every Cork Deputy had to speak on the subject last year on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce. The woollen mills were put on short time, all due to dumping.

Surely all this is not relevant to this measure?

It is not even true, not to mind not being relevant.

I am trying to point out what can be done by people who impede industry. This authority will be only another impediment to industry.

The Deputy has said that several times. He has given a list of the industries in Cork.

I am talking about more than Cork; I am referring to the turf industry.

I have given the Deputy great latitude.

The Minister, when he was introducing this measure, went over industrial development, or lack of industrial development, in every year since 1926.

Not over every industry.

I am dealing with Deputy McGrath's speech and its relevancy to the Bill under discussion.

When the personnel of this body were appointed, one of the members made it quite clear what his ideas were when he said that the flour industry should be nationalised. We had a very good indication to-night by another speaker that he believes in the same policy. It is better to make up your minds whether or not you are going to encourage people to start industry. If that is going to be the view-point of this authority, I think it is a very good warning to people who have money to invest. It would seem to be pointing out to those people that they had better invest their money in some other country, that they will not get much encouragement here.

I would point out to the Minister, as I think Deputy Larkin did, that finished articles are being imported into this country at practically the same price as it costs our Irish manufacturers to purchase the raw materials necessary for the making of the same articles—waterproof garments, oilskins and articles of that kind. I think it is very necessary, even if we have to subsidise or protect our industries, that we should keep them going. It would be much better to do that than have our people idle. If this body is set up, I suggest it should do something to decentralise industry. If that is not done, the rural population will dwindle further. The people are continuing to leave the rural areas for the towns where they get higher pay and have shorter working hours. I think that an authority such as this should also see to it that all repairs to ships are carried out in this country. The ships which are the property of Irish Shipping should not be sent to England, as they are at present, for repairs. We have here the dockyards, the men and the machinery able to do that work but they are idle.

I very much fear that, if the people of this country are to depend on a Bill like this for the initiation of schemes and proposals for industry, and at the same time are told that it is all nationalised industries we should have, it will not afford much encouragement to the investing public. We heard sneers about small factories in back lanes and other places. There can be no doubt but that this country could not have carried on during the war were it not for the production we had from those factories, whether they were makeshift or not. At any rate, it can be said that the work they did helped to keep the country going during that time. Speaking from my small experience, I believe that this authority will be like many other bodies that are being set up. I do not know whether its primary purpose is to give people jobs or not. Those on it seem to have been fairly well selected. If the members of this body are just going to spend a couple of hours a day listening to reports and then go away, well all I can say is "may God help Irish industry."

That is worthy of the Deputy.

After all that we heard to-day of slanders from the Leader of the Opposition.

If Deputy O'Higgins has anything to say, will he get up and say it?

I was referring to the slanders of your back bencher, Deputy McGrath, after the pious speech we had to-day from the Leader of the Opposition.

I did not hear Deputy McGrath say anything.

Deputy Aiken on the Bill.

I have no doubt of what would be said about the Bill if it had been introduced by Fianna Fáil—that a Senator had got a job at £2,000 a year under the Bill.

Now we will have slander.

I have no doubt what would be said about it. But, taking the Bill on the merits of the case made by the Minister and by the various other speakers on the Government Benches who are supporting it, I think they made a very poor case for it. Deputy Larkin made quite a long speech in which he recounted some of the difficulties of getting a decision from a Government. He spoke of all the difficulties that were put in the way of any proposition by the Department of Finance, the inquisition that was held into proposals put up by Departments and so on, and he hoped that this particular commission was not going to be subject to Finance sanction in any of its activities.

Now, we all know the difficulty of co-ordinating the activities of Government Departments. We all admit that it is necessary that propositions put up for the expenditure of public money should be examined by some central Department, such as the Department of Finance. That, in certain cases, has the effect of slowing down the implementation of many good suggestions, but what is solemnly proposed in this Bill is to institute another organisation whose activities will have to be co-ordinated, not only with the Department of Finance, but with the Department of Industry and Commerce and with all the other branches and agencies of the Government of the State. However difficult it has been in the past to get co-ordination between the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Finance in relation to concrete proposals for the establishment of industries, this Bill, if it becomes law, is going to add to those difficulties.

Heretofore, a proposition made to the Minister for Industry and Commerce was examined by his officials who were in the same building with him and in daily consultation with him, and so they had some chance of making up their minds within a reasonable time as to what to do about the proposition. But now it is proposed to set up this new tariff commission, and so the officials, who could be assisting the Minister for Industry and Commerce to make up his mind, are going to be shifted into another office around the corner to do work on this tariff commission.

If a proposition is made to this new tariff commission, it must be examined by them in all its aspects. When they finally make up their minds, they will refer it to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The Minister will have to examine it even before he sends it to the Department of Finance. The effect of that will be another duplication. The work done by this new tariff commission will be redone in the Minister's office by his advisers. They will have to go into it with the same care as the new tariff commission in order to advise the Minister, and then the Minister will have to submit the matter to the Department of Finance. When any objection or question is raised about a proposition, instead of its being settled directly between the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Finance, a Department of Finance communication will be sent to the Department of Industry and Commerce and then will be sent to this new tariff commission for its report, thus adding further and further to the delay.

I think that the Minister for Agriculture had a good hand in drafting this new obstacle to the development of Irish industry. He has made no secret of his detestation of industrial development; all he wants is the bullock. He has been denouncing what he calls tariff racketeers. Every person who put his money into the development of industry to make profit for himself and, incidentally, to give employment and to increase production for our people, was a tariff racketeer. He certainly has succeeded in persuading the Minister for Industry and Commerce to put another obstacle in the way of new industries being started here.

I think that we are very foolish in creating this new tariff commission. We all had experience of a tariff commission before and, in order that work should be done, it had to be abolished. I remember a small tariff being proposed back in 1929 when the old tariff commission was in being. For three or four years they had that matter under consideration. The proposed tariff was on imported prayer-books and amounted to a few thousand. The tariff commission went around every country in Europe examining all sorts of printing establishments to see whether they should put this tariff on prayer-books. They spent more money making inquiries as to whether they should put on a tariff than could be earned by the workers employed in making the articles which would be imported. Are we to have that sort of thing again? We all know of the great need for developing Irish industries as quickly as possible. The Coalition Government has spent two years in scrapping some of the projects that were put under way by Fianna Fáil, and they are now coming forward with this as an alleged cure-all for the situation which they themselves created. If they had forgotten what they said about tariff racketeers and all the rest of it and had got down to business, we could have been very much further on the road to giving employment to our people and getting production here.

Twenty-five thousand in the past two years was not too bad.

Twenty-five thousand emigrated.

Put into Irish industry in two years.

How many emigrated? We had this on the wireless the other day. According to the Minister before he became Minister, if we had a Government that wanted to do it, within 24 hours every unemployed man could be put into remunerative employment.

We are not doing too badly.

The Minister said he could do it within 24 hours. Two years after he came into office, the unemployed having been shipped to England and elsewhere, he now comes along with a new tariff commission as a cure-all.

You were going to ship them back.

At least we started industry. When Fine Gael were in office before they closed down industry.

There was no emigration when Fine Gael were in before. When you were in, 300,000 emigrated.

There was an emigration of 300,000 from 1922 to 1932 when Fine Gael were in.

These interruptions are disorderly.

The Minister's cure for all the unemployment which he and his colleagues created is to set up a new tariff commission. We have had enough of tariff commissions. It is time that the Minister either lived up to his responsibility as Minister or got out and let somebody else take his place who would do some work.

Does the Deputy want to get back here?

I would not be in the Minister's seat under the conditions in which he got in for any money in the world.

Let us get on with the Bill.

We could have been where the Minister is if we had paid even a hundredth part of the price of dishonour which he paid.

You made a good attempt.

Let us get back to the Bill.

If members on the Government Benches are allowed to interrupt, I will have to reply.

I was referring to all interrupters and irrelevancies.

Deputy Lehane, in his speech, likened this new tariff commission to the T.V.A. The T.V.A. was set up with a definite responsibility to do a certain job. There have been organisations akin to the T.V.A. set up in this country to do a particular job. They are autonomous. They are allowed to go ahead and do their work. This organisation will do the work the Minister should do. This body is not set up to do a specific job with specific powers and a specific amount of money. This body will make its inquiries over the whole field of national economy. That is not a suitable job for an organisation not directly responsible to this Dáil. If companies with day-to-day independence in the carrying out of their work, are not available to develop certain products, this organisation would be all right. But it is quite wrong to set up an organisation such as this new tariff commission to explore the whole field of national industrial development.

You are all right. It is half-past ten. You have been saved by the bell.

I do not want at this stage to open up a new aspect.

Debate adjourned.
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