Committee on Finance. - Vota 39—Oifig an Aire Oideachais, (ar leanúint). – Dáil Éireann (13th Dáil) – Thursday, 20 Apr 1950

Committee on Finance. - Vota 39—Oifig an Aire Oideachais, (ar leanúint).

Captain Cowan

When progress was reported, I was making some observations in regard to the report of the Roe Commission. I end these observations by pressing the Minister to indicate, when concluding, that he and the Government will endeavour, within the shortest possible time, fully to implement the majority findings of the Roe Commission. If the Minister were to give that guarantee now to the teachers—the guarantee that in the next Budget an effort will be made if not to meet the teachers in full at least to go a long way from the present position to full implementation of the majority findings—I think it would have a good effect. It would allay or dissipate that feeling of disappointment and disillusionment that they now have in regard to the whole matter. I think that is all the more important because undoubtedly the Minister, since he has taken over responsibility for the Department of Education, has gone a long way towards removing a great number of grievances which the teaching profession has had for a number of years.

We have always maintained that education should be free. The annual Estimates for the Department should ensure that education is free by the provision of sums for free school books and free school requisites. Only in that way can it be truly said that our educational system is free to the ordinary people.

Reference has been made this afternoon and on many previous occasions on the Vote for the Department of Education to the size of the classes. Undoubtedly the classes are much too large. While classes are too large, it is impossible to give proper education to the children in them. By herding children into very large classes, as happens here in the City of Dublin, a good deal of the money we spend on education is really wasted. No matter how efficient a teacher may be, no matter how competent he may be, no matter how well he may be paid, unless he is able to give some personal attention to his pupils, those pupils will not and cannot benefit by the classes which the teacher conducts. It is essential, therefore, that such additional classrooms as are necessary should be obtained and such additional teachers as may be necessary should be provided so that our classes may be reduced to the number that will enable the pupils in them to benefit by the instruction they receive.

It was always one of our boasts that when we had obtained our freedom a very high standard of education would be made available to the people. We are not making that high standard available when we have classes of 60, 70 or 80 children under the charge of one teacher. We ought to face the fact that it is grossly unfair to those young people that they should be put in the position of being deprived of the standard of education to which they are entitled. That is what we are doing under our present system—we are depriving them of the education to which they are justly entitled. I realise that during the past ten years it has been difficult to provide new school buildings. However, we have had almost 30 years since we took over responsibility for our own education. In those 30 years better provision should have been made for new school buildings. I am not going to talk about the school buildings right through the country—other Deputies will deal with them. However, there are schools in the City of Dublin which are a disgrace to a community that calls itself civilised. Every day as I pass by in the course of my ordinary work, I see children during the recreation break being marched out into the site of a demolished building round which an advertising hoarding has been erected. I see those little children, in good weather and in bad, being marched into that horrible place to spend a half hour's break, or so. That place is full of puddles and pools of water and the whole area is less than one-quarter of this chamber. Those children do not deserve that from us. They deserve something better. While these conditions exist we ought to hang our heads in shame.

It was also one of our ambitions and one of our objectives that the school-leaving age would be raised so as to benefit the children. That matter has been mentioned, considered and discussed over a great number of years and we seem to be as near that ideal now as we were when it was first mentioned. I appreciate the difficulties that face the Minister and his Department and that face us when we begin to consider the bill for education each year but, unless we face the issue and appreciate that we must spend more money on education and continue to spend until we have an ideal educational system, we cannot remove these obstacles to proper education.

So far, I have referred to primary education. Secondary education is a matter that causes me considerable worry. Is the programme of secondary education suitable for the country? Is it providing the very best training for commerce, industry, the public services, the local services, agriculture? Is it planned for the purpose of educating our boys and girls towards these ends? Who plans the programme? Is it done by the Department of Education and has it that particular object in view?

I feel that the whole question of secondary education and its suitability for our national needs must be examined and inquired into at an early date. Personally, I feel that our secondary education is not suitable for the purposes I have mentioned and that the system is not planned in accordance with national requirements and national economy.

In recent weeks the Minister has established a Council of Education and he has done exactly what I, speaking on this Estimate last year and the year before, was afraid he would do, namely, hand-picked a number of individuals who were representative of nothing, who had responsibility to nobody and formed them into a Council of Education. Like Deputy Derrig, I have no objection at all to any one of the individuals on that Council of Education. I am sure it must have caused the Minister a good deal of worry and trouble to select the individuals that he has selected. They are all distinguished in their own spheres. But, what was required was a Council of Education that would be representative of the different interests involved and that would be responsive and responsible to those interests. The parents of this country have a large responsibility in regard to education. It may be that some of the individuals on this council are parents but I feel that that is not the basis of their selection. I should have liked to see a Council of Education formed of persons representing teachers, school managers, parents, universities and secondary schools, a democratically elected body rather than a handpicked body such as the Minister has succeeded in obtaining.

A council democratically selected on the lines I have indicated should have particular responsibilities and particular functions. As it is at the moment, it is an advisory body. We do not know how often they will meet. We do not know what matters will be referred to them, whether they may take the initiative themselves, whether they may arrive at decisions by a majority which, exactly like the majority decisions of the Roe Commission, may be ignored, and, if they are ignored, how long this body is going to last, how long it is going to exist.

It was one of the points put forward by all the Parties in the inter-Party Government that there should be a council of education but it should be a real council of education, a council democratically elected, properly representative of particular interests and with statutory duties and reponsibilities. The body that has been set up by the Minister does not fulfil these requirements and is not the type of Council of Education that I visualised or that I recommended prior to the formation of the inter-Party Government.

I am not sure if the Minister covered this point in his opening remarks but, will this council be entitled to prepare and publish their own reports or will their reports be confidential documents that can only be disclosed by authority of the Minister? Will their discussions be in private or will they be in public? Those are matters that require consideration. A number of matters arise on these Estimates but I propose to confine myself to these particular matters which I consider to be of importance.

There is a motion to move back this Estimate and I must say that I cannot follow the line of moving back or rejecting it although I am not satisfied that the Estimate is adequate or sufficient for the purpose of providing proper education for the people. I hope that during the present year the Minister will give the closest attention to those matters to which I have referred and that when we meet this time next year to consider the Estimates for this Department there will be some concrete evidence of a genuine desire, a serious determination, to remove all the obstacles to a proper system of education in this country. I know that the Minister is well fitted to face serious responsibilities. I ask him to face those serious responsibilities and whatever the bill may be he will have no difficulty in getting approval for it in this House.

Domhnall Ó Ruairc

Gach bliain labhraim beagán ar an Meastachán seo, Meastachán an Oideachais, agus sé mo thuairim gurb é an Meastachán is tábhachtaí agus is mó ar fad atá ag an Rialtas. Ba mhaith liom moladh a thabhairt don Aire ar dtús mar gur labhair sé go maith agus go bríomhar i nGaeilge i mbliana. Bhí cúis gearáin agam anuraidh nach ndearnadh sé é agus molaim anois é mar gur athraidh sé an scéal.

Ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuilim féin mí-shásta faoi staid na Gaeilge ins na scoileanna ar fad, na bun-scoileanna, na meán-scoileanna, na ceard-scoileanna agus an ollscoil. Níl fhios agam cén fá, ach sé mo thuairim nach bhfuil an spioraid céanna le blianta anuas in obair na Gaeilge agus a bhí tar éis dúinn an Stát seo a chur ar bun ar dtús. B'fhéidir go bhfuil mí-shástacht na múinteoirí ciontach leis sin mar bhíodar mí-shásta go mór faoi cheist a dtuarastal agus b'fhéidir go bhfuil cúiseanna eile ann, ach sé mo thuairim nach bhfuil labhairt na Gaeilge go mór-mhór ag dul chun cinn mar ba cheart ins na bun-scoileanna faoi láthair. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil an oiread di á labhairt agus ba chóir. Tá múinteoirí óga ag teacht amach, cuid acu as an nGaeltacht, cuid acu agus an Ghaeilge acu ó dhúchas agus sé mo thuairim nach labhrann siad Gaeilge chomh maith agus chomh minic agus ba cheart leis na páistí. Ní hí an Ghaeilge gnáth-theanga na bpáistí tríd an lá. Níl fhios agam céard tá dhá dhéanamh ins na coláistí ullmhúcháin ach níl an spioraid ceart iontu maidir le Gaeilge a labhairt leis na macaibh léinn mar ba cheart. Ar chuma ar bith nuair a thagann na múinteoirí óga amach ní bhíonn siad ag obair chomh dian agus ba cheart dóibh i measc na bpáistí. Níl mórán dhá dhéanamh chun na páistí agus na múinteoirí a ghríosadh agus chun cuidiú a thabhairt dóibh an teanga a labhairt. Bhíos sásta tamall ó shoin nuair a chuala mé an tAire dhá rá gur cuireadh scéim ar bun ins na meán-scoileanna chun na mic léinn a ghríosadh chun na Gaeilge a labhairt. Is maith an scéal é sin agus tá súil agam go gcuirfidh sé an scéim sin i bhfeidhm ins na bun-scoileanna agus na ceard-scoileanna chomh maith. Tá fhios agam go maith go bhfuil cuid de na meán-scoileanna ag obair go dian agus gurb í an Ghaeilge an ghnáth-theanga i rith an lae, ach i gcuid mhaith eile níl an scéal mar sin. Is íontach an rud é nach bhfuil aon scrúdú dhé dhéanamh ar na mic léinn maidir le labhairt na Gaeilge. Ní dóigh liom go mbíonn aon scrúdú béil orthu ó théann siad isteach go dtí go dtagann siad amach agus ní ceart é. Sé an scéal céanna é maidir leis na mic léinn ins an ollscoil. Is féidir le mac-léinn scrúdú a dhéanamh le dhul isteach ins an ollscoil agus ón lá sin amach níl aon iachall air an Ghaeilge a labhairt. Sé toradh an scéil go dtagann siad amach agus níl fonn ar bith orthu an Ghaeilge a labhairt. Tá mic léinn ar eolas agam a fuair scólaireachtaí go dtí an ollscoil—bhí siad go maith le Gaeilge ins an meán-scoil—ach nuair a tháinig siad amach as an ollscoil agus nuair a casadh daoine orthu níor mhaith leo focal Gaeilge a labhairt. Tá rud éigin mí-cheart agus tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh an tAire athrú ar an scéal nó go ndéanfaidh sé iarracht ar chuma ar bith.

Tá rudaí eile le rá agam ach deirim arís nach bhfuilim sásta ar chor ar bith maidir leis an dul chun cinn ins na scoileanna. Is ioma cúis atá leis sin ach má támuid le dhul ar aghaidh caithfimid athrú a dhéanamh.

I have been trying to say that I am not satisfied about the position of spoken Irish in the schools whether they are primary, secondary or vocational schools or the university. I think there is a distinct slackening from the position that obtained shortly after the State was founded. There may be a variety of causes for that, but I think it is up to us and particularly to the Minister to try to get to the bottom of the question and encourage the children to speak Irish. I do think that the abolition of the highly efficient marking will do a lot of damage. I know that the Minister did it at the request of the teachers, but I am afraid that it will do a good deal of harm because under this scheme one mark in speaking Irish counted for two and it was a distinct encouragement to teachers to make their pupils proficient and excellent at Irish. When it is gone, and it has gone, I am afraid it is going to do a good deal of harm. Apart from that, there was certainly a falling back in the speaking of Irish.

The Minister stated—and I was glad to hear it, because I did not know it before—that there is a scheme for encouraging the pupils of secondary schools to speak Irish and I hope he will extend that scheme to the national schools. There must be some form of encouragement or some form of competition. I think some prizes should be provided for the encouragement of the speaking of Irish by the schools. I do not know what is being done in the training colleges, but I do not think there is a right spirit amongst many of the young teachers coming out, even those who belong to the Gaeltacht. I do not think they are doing as much as they ought to do or trying to get the children they teach to use Irish as a spoken language. I think also, though many people disagree with me, that there should be more of an attempt to teach subjects like geography and history through Irish. I think it is a big mistake not to try it. It may not be 100 per cent. perfect, but it is an attempt and one which will bring results, irrespective of what anybody says.

I have a good deal of practical experience and my experience is that a teacher with a fair fluency, teaching history through Irish, is bound to improve his pupils in the spoken language. That should be encouraged and, if necessary, a great deal of credit given to the teacher who makes them fairly perfect. I remember when I was trained—it was in the British time— prizes were offered for those who got highest place in Irish in the country and prizes were also offered for teachers who taught Irish successfully two years after leaving the training college. There is no encouragement at all now that I can see, and there should be some form of encouragement for teachers and for pupils, because something will have to be done with regard to the improvement of the speaking of Irish.

I may say that my knowledge of practical education is confined mainly to the primary schools and in that respect I need not tell the Minister that there are many defects. We cannot expect perfection, of course—there were defects when the Minister came there, as there were defects when his predecessor came there, and I am afraid there will be defects until the end of time—but there are some things which could be remedied. I agree with Deputy Cowan that more should be done to provide better buildings. I do not know about the City of Dublin, but I know that in Dublin there are several teachers—two, three and more—teaching in one room. I think that is outlandish. In the country areas, there are many schools that are unfit for human occupation at all and the sooner these nightmares are got rid of the better. I know that the Minister, any Minister, has to limit his operations under the direction of the Department of Finance, but I think every Department in the Government should try to end that state of affairs and provide better and healthier schools for the children.

In other years I had to complain, as I have also to complain this year, about the sanitary conditions of the schools and particularly the cleaning of the schools. The sanitary conditions in most of our country schools are primitive and a big attempt should be made to remedy that situation. The cleaning of the schools is still left to the pupils. There is in every town a vocational school, and, when the teachers in these schools go in there, they find everything prepared. The national teacher is teaching a relatively much bigger number of pupils and if he does not have the school cleaned by the pupils before he goes home, he has to do it in the morning. That is not fair to the national teachers. There should be some system under which these things would be done for them. In many cases, there is no provision for cleaning out-offices and so on, and it is time that something was done to put an end to that.

Mr. Hickey

Is that not a matter for the local manager?

Mr. O'Rourke

He has a lot of things to do and I am afraid he does not and cannot do them. The Minister and his Department have the money and are primarily responsible, and I suggest that the Minister should try, whether through the manager or by some other means, to remedy that state of affairs.

I heard Deputy Cowan complaining about very large classes. That may be true of an old school in the country and of a number of schools in Dublin, but I have another kind of complaint to make. I have to complain of the schools which have almost no pupils at all in some of the classes. I could tell the House of some schools where they have not got a pupil at all enrolled in some of the classes, which is an even worse state of affairs. That brings me to a point on which I agree with Deputy Cowan—that the school-leaving age should be raised in country places. I know there is a problem in the city because the accommodation may not be available for them, but that is not so in country places. As a general rule, the school population has dwindled. It is now very small, and, where there were 70 and 80 pupils, there are scarcely 40 now, and so there is plenty of room, and there is no reason why the school-leaving age cannot be raised in these cases.

The Minister is aware that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction amongst primary teachers about the primary certificate examination. I am not one who will say that there should not be any primary certificate examination, but I say that it is not right to compel all pupils enrolled in the sixth standard to go in for that examination. Taking the position as it is in country places, you have compulsory attendance only from the age of six to the age of 14— if they have a long distance to travel, there is practically no compulsion at all—and so the teacher has only eight years in which to teach all subjects. I do not know what the present policy of the Department is, but some years ago the policy was to insist on promotion every year, with the result that "duds" were forced up in the various classes. I for one promoted pupils and I did so to a large extent under compulsion, because the inspector would want to know why these pupils were not promoted. It was really regarded as a mark of inefficiency if you did not promote them every year. The result was, and is, that many pupils going into the sixth standard were and are not fitted for it, and are thereby forced to go in for that examination.

I suggest that there be no compulsion in the matter of sending them into the sixth standard. They could be left to a later standard—the seventh, at least. A lot of the dissatisfaction of the teachers would then disappear. The teachers say that it is educationally unsound, but I cannot see how it is. There are some pupils who, even if you talked for ever, will never pass an examination and that should be taken into account. There is a fair percentage of pupils who will never be able to pass the primary certificate examination, no matter how efficient the teacher is. There should not be too much stiffness about it. It should be left optional in the sixth standard, and, before they leave school, by all means let them sit for the primary certificate examination. Much of the dissatisfaction amongst the teachers would thereby be removed. Here again the raising of the school-leaving age would make that possible because, if you have them up to 15 years of age, you have a longer period in which to send them in for the examination.

I was very much struck by Deputy Cowan's remarks about children at playtime going inside an old ruin. That is bad enough in Dublin. It is easy to get playgrounds in Dublin, but what about something similar happening in country places? You have boys and girls, particularly boys, having no place to play, except a miserable little school yard and, after playing in it for some time, it is all mud and they cannot play any longer. That is happening in a country where there is any amount of land around the country schools. At almost every county convention of the Gaelic Athletic Association year after year you have motions asking for the provision of proper playing pitches for schools and yet nothing has yet been done about it. I put a question with regard to that to the former Minister for Education and he suggested that the managers had power to do this. I do not know how they have power to do it. Anyhow, it is not being done. I think the Department of Education or the Government should go as far as getting compulsory powers for the provision of playing pitches for the schools. It is an extraordinary state of affairs to have the pupils in these schools in wet weather going out to play under the present conditions. If they are allowed to play in the school it gets into a muddy condition. If it is a dry day, they have to stand up against a wall when they should be playing a game.

The Land Commission may have it in their power to do something about this, but they are giving very little heed to it. In fact, I do not think they are giving any attention to the needs of the school in this respect. I think that every effort should be made to provide these playing pitches. It would not be a very costly matter. The local manager will not get a field unless there is some power given to him. In most cases he would not be able to offer a sufficiently attractive price and he would need compulsory power to get the land. If we are to develop the health of the race, and I think the Minister is very anxious to have that done, we should provide proper playing pitches both for boys and girls. There is no reason why girls should not have their camogie at playtime or in the evening.

The last matter I want to refer to is the remuneration of teachers. Like Deputy Cowan, I think the Minister has gone a good way in this matter, but he has not gone far enough to satisfy the teachers. He knows well that there is a great volume of discontent among the teachers with regard to their remuneration, although he has undoubtedly improved on the previous scales. I may be wrong, but I got the impression, when the Roe Commission was set up, that it was really a question of setting up a body to arbitrate on this question and I thought their recommendations would be accepted. However, they have not been accepted, and I think that has produced a great deal of discontent amongst the teachers. Like Deputy Cowan, I hope that the Minister will make a genuine effort in the near future to improve the position. There are some points in the present scale that the Minister has put up and that is decidedly good. I think that he has made a big improvement in the position of the lady teachers and that is a point I was always in agreement with. I think that in most cases they do equally efficient work, and it is a very good thing that they are put on a par with the single-men teachers. I expect to be going out on pension myself before long and I am, personally, well pleased that the Minister is giving a retiring gratuity to the male teachers. That is bringing them on a par with civil servants and officials of local authorities, which is a very desirable thing. Of course, if the gratuity were given on a percentage of a bigger salary it would be a lot better. However, it is a big improvement and I hope the Minister will go the whole hog.

Taking it all round, my feeling is that the matter which requires most attention is the speaking of the Irish language. We all agree that unless something big is done in this generation with regard to that the opportunity may slip. I am sure the Minister will get the co-operation of everybody who is truly Gaelic in this country in regard to that matter. We all realise that it is a mighty big task but, if it is tackled properly and we are really sincere, a great deal can be done. The Minister has been only two years in office, but I suggest to him that he should get together the inspectors of his Department and representatives of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation and other bodies interested in the teaching of the language and try to devise some means of improving the position with regard to spoken Irish. I believe that some system of encouragement will need to be adopted whether in regard to the school as a whole or to the individual. However, it should be possible to get representatives of all the bodies concerned to come together and with goodwill to evolve a scheme for the improvement of the position with regard to Irish.

I am afraid that some of the university colleges are more in need of attention than anybody else. Some of them are doing very little or almost nothing in regard to this matter. I would say that they are spoiling rather than helping the progress of the Irish language. That is entirely wrong. As they are being subsidised by the State, it is time that the Minister should make them toe the line and do their bit. They ought to do more than anyone else. They are the educated classes and it is time they should be made do their bit. I do not want to mention any individual college. Some of them are doing very good work, but others are doing very little, if anything. They seem to regard the speaking of Irish as of no importance. So long as they take up that attitude, I do not see how we can restore Irish as a spoken language. They should be made to realise that, if they are to be subsidised, they should take more than an ordinary part in the restoration of the Irish language.

Seán Ó Duinn

Chuir mé ceist ar an Aire tamall ó shoin i dtaobh beagán den chló Rómhánach a chur sna leabhair bunscoile agus meánscoile. Sílim go bhfuil sé in am é sin a dhéanamh. Is é an cló sin a bhíonn ar Indiu, an t-aon pháipéar seachtainiúil atá againn sa Ghaeilge. Is é is mó a bhíonn ar Chomhar. Bíonn roinnt mhaith de na haistí ar Feasta, páipéar oifigiúil Chonnradh na Gaeilge, agus ar an Ultach, sa cló sin. Usáidtear é freisin sna páipéirí laethiúla agus seachtainiúla, idir pháipéirí náisiúnta agus páipéirí áitiúla. Na foirmeacha oifigiúla a bhíonn le líonadh ag an bpobal is é an cló sin a bhíonn orthu. Na fógraí a chuireann an Rialtas ar na páipéirí is sa chló sin a bhíonn siad. An Club Leabhar—agus creidim go bhfuil beagnach dhá mhíle léitheoirí ann—foilsíonn siad leabhair sa chló Rómhánach. Nach léir mar sin go bhfuiltear ag baint níos mó úsáide, in aghaidh an lae, as an gcló sin. Níl mise in aghaidh an chló Ghaelaigh, chor ar bith, ach tá fhios agam, agus tá fhios ag gach duine atá ag plé le Gaeilge, go gcaithfear úsáid a bhaint as an gcló eile chomh maith. Tuigeann formhór na scríbhneoirí, agus na daoine atá ag iarraidh an teanga Ghaeilge a thabhairt ar ais, gur gá go mheadh na scoláirí ábalta an cló Rómhánach a léamh agus gur dócha gurb é an t-aon chló a bheas á úsáid de ghnáth amach anseo. Is dóigh liom dá bhrí sin gur ceart cúpla ceacht, ar a laghad, sa chló sin, a chur sna leabhair do na ranganna sa bhunscoil, agus sna leabhair mheánscoile.

Tá rud eile atá ag teastáil go géar, is é sin, abhar léitheoireachta i nGaeilge don aos óg. Páipéirí ar nós Comic Cuts do na páistí, agus leabhair eachtraí agus a leithéidí do bhuachaillí agus do chailíní níos sine. Ba cheart go bhféadfadh an Gúm na rudaí sin a chur ar fáil go minic agus go fairsing. Chuala mé daoine ag gearán nach leagtar amach na leabhair scoile, idir Bhéarla agus Gaeilge, ar chuma go mbeidís ag dul i ndeacracht do réir a chéile. Tarlaíonn uaireannta go mbíonn an leabhar don rang íseal níos deacra ná an leabhar do rang níos aoirde.

Ní foláir nó tá fhios ag an Aire, ná fuil daoine sásta chor ar bith leis an nGúm. Ceann de na gearáin mhóra a déantar air, an mhoill mhór a bhaineann le leabhair d'fhoilsiú. Bíonn leabhair acu ar feadh na mblian sar a gcuireann siad amach iad. Conas is féidir scríbhneoirí Gaeilge a ghríosadh ar an gcuma sin? Cuireann sé drochmhisneach ar scríbhneoir a cheapadh ná foilseofaí an leabhar go dtí tar éis a bháis, mar a tharla do roinnt daoine. Tá leithscéal bacach acu ag cur an mhilleáin ar na clódóirí. Ach nach maith gur féidir le foilsitheoirí príobháideacha leabhair a chur amach go tapaidh? Tá lochta móra, leis, ar an gcóras díolacháin acu, agus ba chóir go mbeadh sé furasta na lochta sin a leigheas. Níl fhios agam an féidir feabhas a chur ar an nGúm gan an córas a leasú ó bhun.

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil oiread tairbhe agus is féidir á bhaint as na scannáin, laistigh nó lasmuigh de na scoileanna, ar mhaithe leis an nGaeilge. Is gléas é an scannán nach féidir neamhshuim a thabhairt ann i saol an lae inniu. D'fhéadfaí leas mór a bhaint as, ní hamháin don Ghaeilge ach mar uirlis mhúinte le haghaidh abhar léinn eile chomh maith.

Ní thuigim cén fáth nach mbíonn scrúdú i labhairt na Gaeilge riachtanach sna Meán-Scoileanna. Teastaíonn sin chun teanga bheo a dhéanamh den Ghaeilge agus is tábhachtaí é ná nithe eile a múintear i gclár na Gaeilge sna scoileanna sin.

Tá rud eile atá ag déanamh go leor díobhála don Ghaeilge, is é sin, an polasaí atá ag an Ollscoil i dtaobh na Gaeilge. An diúltú a thug Coláiste Ollscoile Bhaile Atha Cliath, tamall ó shoin, páipéirí scrúduithe a leagadh i nGaeilge, ba ghníomh é a bhí lom díreach i gcoinne polasaí an Stáit. Os é an tAire atá freagarthach i gcúrsaí oideachais, agus caiteachais ar oideachas, ba chóir dó gan ligint d'aon dream, is cuma cé hiad, saothar na múinteoirí bunscoile, meánscoile agus gairmscoile a mhilleadh.

I prefaced my remarks with those few words in the native language in order that I might obtain the opportunity of practising it here in the House, as we have been advised to do outside the House by Deputies who have spoken here; and that, I think, should be done on every conceivable occasion that the opportunity presents itself.

It is beyond question that the primary objective of our educational system at the moment is, or should be, the revival of the language. It seems to me that very little progress has been made in that direction. The reason for that lack of progress is, in my view, the lack of any united approach to the problem of the revival of Irish. A Deputy who spoke earlier referred to the advisability of compelling teachers to teach, for instance, geometry and geography through the medium of the language. I have had the experience in my schooldays of trying to learn those two subjects, particularly geometry, through the medium of Irish; and for any child who is not fluent in Irish such an experience is just mental cruelty and nothing else. It is easy enough for any of our people who have had Irish ón gcliabhán, who have been familiar with it from an early stage, but for children living in counties where Irish has been dead for over a century it is a very difficult proposition, when they go to school, to have to try to learn a subject through the medium of a language with which they are not entirely familiar. I think that represents a completely wrong approach to the question.

In my view, the revival can be achieved only by our discovering a method whereby we can imbue the minds of the children with respect for the language and love of it, and a realisation of its beauty. Compulsion of any kind, even exercised on the mind of a child, does not have the effect that it is designed to have. That can be said particularly so far as the minds of Irish children are concerned. Practically everyone is anxious to see Irish revived. We no longer meet the mentality which was opposed to the revival, but we do suffer from disunity in our approach to that problem. We have had different schools of thought about the method to be used. We might make a beginning by trying to make the language more attractive, by endeavouring to secure the publication of children's periodicals in Irish, comic papers, possibly in both English and Irish. Some newspapers have already embarked to some extent on that and, as far as can be observed, it seems to be a pretty successful line to follow.

One of the problems which I see in this connection is the problem as to how Irish is to be kept alive in the minds of the youth when they have left school. Thousands of young men and women—having gone through their school years and achieved a fairly good knowledge of Irish—leave school with a fairly good grasp of the language, sufficient to enable them to converse with and to understand people who speak it, and we have the problem of how they are to preserve that knowledge. I think that nothing hitherto has been done to help those people. They are left entirely to their own resources unless they come within the organisational scope of the Gaelic League—and not all of them have time to take part in such excellent organisations as the Gaelic League. I believe there should be a policy on the part of the State whereby the maintenance of the Irish language amongst that particular group—people between the ages of 17 and 25 years—should be encouraged. That could be done, say, by the Department's offering scholarships in one form or another, by competition, by organising periodic classes or socials but particularly I think it could be done by offering to young men and women, within the age group 17 to 25 years, scholarships to the Gaeltacht in much the same fashion as they are offered to school-going children much younger in years. Unless the Department and the State succeed in following up the work which has been done in schools in that fashion or in some such fashion, I am afraid that the work which has been done and which is being done in the schools is going to be obair in aisce. A Deputy expressed the view that if the present generation does not grasp the opportunity which is presented in this matter it may be fatal to the language. I think that that opportunity is slipping day by day. I think that so far as the attempt to revive the language is concerned it is in a very poor way. The results are very poor. It is very seldom we hear Irish spoken amongst people— even by those who know it and who are able to converse in it. It is very seldom heard in ordinary commercial life and in the ordinary life of the nation. That is a great tragedy and it is a problem which we shall have to tackle if we are going even to hold on to the slender thread which we now have of what was once the language of the whole nation. I would ask the Minister to indicate, when he is replying, if he has any views upon the particular aspect of how the language is going to be encouraged amongst those young people who have left school with some grasp of it.

I desire now to refer to the condition of school buildings and particularly school buildings in rural areas. I am sure the Minister is very familiar with the constant complaints which he receives from various parts of the country in regard to the conditions in a lot of the schools. Even in County Dublin, which is the premier county, there are still schools which should be demolished and replaced. In this connection I think it would be of considerable help if the State contribution towards the building of new schools were increased. I know, of course, that the Minister has discretion in so far as the contribution is concerned at the moment: I know that it is flexible and that it can be increased. However, any increases which have taken place or which are likely to take place over the ordinary statutory contributions are always the result of prolonged representation and necessarily prolonged delay. I think it would be a good thing if the State contribution were increased so that the balance, which must be raised locally in each case, would not be so large. At the present time, school buildings are costing enormous sums of money. A school building in County Dublin, which in 1939 could probably have been built for something in the neighbourhood of £3,500, will now cost between £7,000 and £8,000. While the amount of money which must be raised locally in the parish concerned represents only a fraction of the total cost, nevertheless it represents a very great burden upon a particular parish which I have in mind and I am sure that that can be paralleled throughout the county and throughout the country because the people in the parish and the people in a rural area are not particularly prosperous. I think it would be a step forward if, in view of the very high cost of building, the State contribution could be substantially increased in respect of the replacement of existing schools which are in a bad condition.

The question of playgrounds for children affects rural areas as well as cities. The question of the lack of sanitation is a constant problem in rural areas in County Dublin so far as schools are concerned. It must constitute a very serious threat to the health of the children, large numbers of whom are attending schools in different parts of County Dublin in which the sanitation is of the most primitive kind. During the coming year the Minister should pay particular attention to the problem of sanitation as it applies to schools.

It is difficult enough, in many cases, to get children to attend school with regularity but it is even more difficult when parents take the view that because of the lack of sanitary conveniences, the dilapidated condition of the school, and so forth, there is a threat to the health of their children. That is what occurs in different areas when conditions are bad. We have come across cases of parents who have, perhaps, come to the conclusion that what their children might lose in education they would make up for in health if kept from school because the schools their children were attending were in such a bad condition or because of the sanitation problem.

I urge the Minister to give attention to these two matters and, if he possibly can, when he is replying, to give some information as to what he proposes to do in these respects. I do not intend to take up the time of the House any longer on this matter. I feel very strongly that, so far as the revival of the native language is concerned, a great deal of the talk we hear from time to time is only talk and so much wishful thinking. It is not an easy problem to discover how we are to change the present position of the language in the minds of the children and create the position wherein it will be an object of regard and something to be cherished because, unfortunately, the policy which has been followed in the past has created a disposition against the language and has created difficulties for the progress of the language so far as the schools are concerned. I think we need a kinder attitude in this matter. Those of us who have any knowledge of Irish at all know that if the mind of the child or the mind of the individual can be opened once to the beauty of Irish that will be sufficient to guarantee the future of the language. We must find ways of doing that. We must get rid of the idea that we will do it by compulsion. We will not. We must find some way of encouraging the rising generation, on whom the future depends, to practise Irish, to maintain it and to regard it for what it is, our greatest national heritage.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Bhí mé ag éisteacht le chuid mhór de ráiteas an Aire, ag cur an mheastacháin seo ós cómhair na Dála. Bhí sé níos fearr i bhfad i mbliana maidir le labhairt na Gaeilge. Labhair sé cuid mhaith Gaeilge ag míniú an mheastacháin dúinn agus tá moladh tuillte aige mar gheall air sin ach lean sé le cuid mhór Béarla nach raibh gá ar bith leis, dar liomsa. Bhí nós ins an Dáil ag Tomás Ó Deirg ar feadh na mblianta nuair a bhí sé ina Aire Oideachais, an meastachán Oideachais a chur ós cómhair na Dála i nGaeilge ar fad. Ní thuigim agus ní léir dom cén fáth go n-impódh an tAire ar ais ar an mBéarla. Cuirim é sin ós a chómhair don chéad uair eile a bheas sé ag caint ar mheastachán Oideachais i gceann bliana, má bhíonn sé ann.

Chaith an tAire tamall ag míniú dúinn mar gheall ar an gComhairle Oideacha's atá bunaithe aige. Mhínigh sé dúinn go mbeadh sé mar cheann de na príomh-chuspóirí ag an gComhairle sin comh-eagrú agus comh-riaradh níos fearr a dhéanamh ar chúrsaí oideachais nó a mholadh dhó conas a déanfar é sin. Tuigim ón méid sin go ndéanfaí comh-eagrú níos fearr idir na ceithre ranna—bun-oideachas, meán-oideachas, ceard-oideachas agus oideachas ollscoile. Ach, dar liomsa, an fhaid agus atá cúrsaí oideachais ins na hOllscoileanna, go mórmhór maidir le ceist na Gaeilge, fé mar atáid, dá laighad comheagruithe agus comh-riartha a déanfar is amhlaidh a b'fhearr don oideachas agus do chúrsaí na Gaeilge, agus dob fhearr, im thuairim-se, fanúint go dtí go bhfeicimis an mbeadh sé i gcumas an Aire nó i gcumas aon dreama eile sa tír riaradh níos fearr a chur ar oideachas Ollscoile, go mórmhór maidir le ceist na Gaeilge.

Maidir leis an gComhairle Oideachais, ba léir ó chaint an Aire nár chuir sé ar bun é de bharr aon mhaitheas a dhéanfadh sé i gcúrsaí oideachais nó de bharr aon fheabhas a chuirfeadh sé ar chúrsaí oideachais, ach gur cuireadh ar bun é de bharr na margaíochta rúnda a tharla nuair a gineadh an Rialtas so atá ann anois. Is mar gheall air sin amháin atá an Chomhairle seo ann. Ta aithne phearsanta agam ar triúr nó ceathrar de na daoine atá curtha ag an Aire ar an gComhairle seo. Is eol dom an saothar atá déanta acu in obair na Gaeilge leis na blianta móra fada. Bheadh iontaoibh agam as na daoine seo, an triúr nó ceathrar díobh a bhfuil aithne agam orthu ar aon choiste nó comhairle nó ár aon eagraíocht a mbeadh baint acu leis. Mar gheall air sin, tá mé sásta anois nach raibh an droch-amhras a bhí agam maidir leis an gComhairle seo ceart. Ní féidir liom a chreidiúint go n-éireodh le h-aon iarracht a déanfaí tríd an gComhairle Oideachais seo ar aon churisteach a dhéanamh ar chúrsaí na Gaeilge, an fhaid is atá na daoine seo in a gcomhaltaí de. Bíodh san mar atá, mar a dubhairt mé cheana, creidim go bhfuil an Chomhairle seo curtha ar bun ag an Aire de bharr na margaíochta rúnda agus na comhcheilge ba bhun le comh-dhéanamh an Rialtais atá anois ann.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Níor thuig an Teachta an Béarla.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Tá mise ag cainnt anois. Ní féidir liom an tAire a chlos go maith agus mar gheall air sin, b'fhearr liom mo chuid cainte a dhéanamh. Ní fhéadfainn gan bheith ag cuimhneamh freisin ar na cainteanna a chloisimis blianta i ndiaidh a chéile ó Risteárd Ua Maolchatha, atá anois in a Aire Oideachais, nuair a bhí sé ina Theachta Dála ar an dtaobh seo den Tigh. Bhíodh sé ag cur síos go fadálach gach bliain i ndiaidh a chéile nuair a bhíodh an meastachain seo á phlé ar na ranganna móra a bhí anseo i scoileanna áirithe ins an gcathair seo, Baile Atha Cliath. Bhíodh sé ag cur síos ar chómh dian agus chómh mór is a bhí an cruatan a bhí á chur ar na scoláirí scoile, ar lucht ceannais na scol agus ar na múinteoirí, go raibh orthu obair a dhéanamh ins na ranganna móra sin. Is léir ón méid a chuala ar an meastachán seo agus ós na freagraí a thug sé ar ceisteanna an tseachtain seo nach bhfuil aon leigheas mór déanta aige, in imeacht dhá bhlian, ar na gearáin sin a bhí aige, maidir leis na ranganna móra i mBaile Atha Cliath.

Ceist eile a bhíodh á plé aige anseo gach uile bhliain ná aos fágála na scol d'árdú. Bhí socraithe ag Rialtas Fianna Fáil é sin a dhéanamh sar ar tharla an t-athrú Rialtais. Ní léir go bhfuil aon ní á dhéanamh ag an Aire chun an socrú sin a chur i ngniomh cé go mbíodh sé féin, agus Teachtaí eile ins na Páirtithe eile atá páirteach ins an Rialtas, glórmhach mar gheall ar an scéal seo leis. Is cuimhin liom gur pléadh an scéal seo ins an Dáil cúpla blian ó shoin agus bhí Vótáil anseo mar gheall uirthi.

Níl aon ní déanta cheana, go bhfios domsa, agus is léir ó ráiteas an Aire inniu nach bhfuil beartaithe aon ní a dhéanamh.

Tá rud eile ann, agus bhíomar bréan ó bheith ag éisteacht leis, sé sin, chómh híseal is atá caighdeán an oideachais sa tír seo. Bhíodh sé sin ar siúl bliain i ndiaidh a chéile ó tháinig mise isteach sa Dáil sé bliana déag ó shoin. Bhíodh an chainnt ag dul i méid agus ag neartú in aghaidh na bliana ó bhinsí Fine Gael, go mór mhór ar chómh híseal is a bhí caighdeán an oideachais mar gheall ar an obair a bhí ar siúl ins na scoileanna ar son na Gaeilge. Sin é a bhí le tuiscint againn. Níl sé sin le tuiscint ó ráiteas an Aire anois ar aon chor. Tá fhios agam féin, tá fhios ag éinne againn go bhfuil aon eolas aige ar an scéal, nach raibh sé sin fíor ariamh agus nach bhfuil sé fíor anois. Tá fhios againn go bhfuil an caighdeán chómh hard sa tír seo, maidir le bun-oideachas, meán-oideachas agus ceard-oideachas, is atá in aon tír eile cosúil linn nuair a chuimhnímid ar na constaicí go léir a bhí le sárú againn agus na deacrachta fé leith a bhí againn anseo nuair a bunaíodh an Roinn Oideachais ar dtús. Buíochas mór le Dia ní raibh mórán den chaint sin le clos sa díospóireacht seo agus ní raibh mórán den chaint a bhí anseo bliain ó shoin maidir le múineadh tré Ghaeilge agus chómh díobhálach is a bhí sé.

Ceist eile a raibh go leor cainte ar siúl mar gheall uirthi chuile bhliain a raibh ceist an oideachais á plé ná ceist stáid na bhfoirgneamh, na drochscoileanna go léir a bhí ann agus an gá a bhí ann le scoileanna nua a sholáthar. Do réir an eolais a thug an tAire dúinn mar fhreagra ar cheist a chuir an Teachta Tomás Ó Deirg air tuigim go bhfuil suas le cúig céad droch-scoil ar fud na tíre seo fós. Tuigim chómh maith go bhfuil dhá cheann déag nó fiche ceann i gContae Luimnigh agus go bhfuil trí cinn i gCathair Luimnigh. Tuigtear dhom go bhfuil súil ag an Aire leath-chéad scoil a sholáthar in aghaidh na bliana feasta. Sílim go raibh isteach is amach leis an méid sin á dhéanamh sul ar tháinig an cogadh agus aimsir na práinne a chuir isteach ar obair thógála i gcoitinne. Go bhfios domsa tá cuid mhaith droch-scoil in iarthar Chontae Luimnigh pé scéal é agus tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh an tAire a dhícheall chun an scéil sin a leigheas.

Tá fhios agam go maith agus tuigim go maith nach ar an Aire amháin atá cúram na hoibre seo; tá na bainisteoirí i gceist, agus tá Oifig na nOibreacha Poiblí i gceist chómh maith. Tuigim go maith gurb é an bainisteoir a chaitheas tús a chur leis an obair sa chéad dul síos agus go mbíonn eagla ar na bainisteoirí bochta an cúram trom sin a thógáil orthu féin. Ní locht orthu é uaireannta mar ní ins na paróistí is saibhre agus is fearr as a bhíonn na scoileanna sin de ghnáth. Caithfear aghaidh a thabhairt ar obair thógála na scoil, leanacht di chómh mhaith agus is féidir linn agus airgead a sholáthar di chómh maith agus is féidir go mbeidh an galar leigheasta. Is dócha nach bhfeiofimid féin an lá sin.

Thugas fé deara go ndearna an tAire rud amháin a thaitnigh go mór liom, sé sin, gur thóg sé faoina sciathán féin an deontas le haghaidh na bpáipéirí Gaeilge. Sílim gur rud maith é seo agus is é an fáth adeirim é sin ná go dtuigeann an tAire scéal na bpáipéirí Gaeilge agus scéal na Gaeilge i gcoitinne níos fearr ná aon Aire eile atá san Rialtas anois agus go bhfuil suim aige sa scéal sin.

Mholfainn dó an rud céanna a dhéanamh maidir leis an Coimisiún Log-ainmneacha. Tá an meastachán sin fé chúram Roinne eile i láthair na huaire agus ba mhaith an rud é, is dóigh liom, dá ndéanfadh an tAire Oideachais an rud céanna is a rinne sé maidir le deóntas na bpáipéirí Gaeilge, sé sin, é a thógáil faoina sciathán féin. Tuigeann sé an scéal níos fearr agus bheadh sé níos báidhiúla leis ná an tAire go bhfuil an obair faoina chúram anois.

Mar is eol don Aire, cuireadh deireadh leis an obair sin nuair a tháinic an t-athrú Rialtais. Obair an-tábhachtach agus an-tairbheach don tír í agus dá dtógadh an tAire faoina sciathán féin an vóta sin bheinn ag súil go dtosnófaí ath-uair ar obair an Choimisiúin Log-ainmneacha agus go gcuirfí i gcrích í go luath. Bhí súil nuair a cuireadh an Coimisiún ar bun i 1946 nach dtógfadh sé ach cúig bliana chun na hoibre a chur i gcrích agus go gcosnódh sé ar fad £25,000 nó £30,000 agus go mbeadh na log-ainmneacha sin go léir ar láimh shábháilte feasta. Dá bhrí sin bheinn ag súil go ndéanfadh an tAire amach anseo nó go luath an cheist sin a scrúdú féachaint an bhfaigheadh sé cúram an Choimisiúin cómh maith le Vóta na bpáipéirí Gaeilge.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Tá mé ad iarraidh smaoineamh cad é an rud is fearr a dhéanamh.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Is maith liom go mor an méid sin a chlos. Ins an dá bhliain atá imithe tá a lán daoine imithe ar shlí na fírinne agus tá a lán eolais maidir le log-ainmneacha imithe san uaigh leo.

Rinneadh tagairt san díospóireacht seo do cheist an Ghúim. Is ceist í atá ag déanamh tinnis dúinn le blianta anuas ach thuigeas ón Aire go bhfuil feabhas ar cheist na clódóireachta le bliain anuas agus más mar sin é ba cheart go mbeadh feabhas ar chúrsaí an Ghúim chómh maith. Tá súil agam é, mar tá an scéal dona go leor. Fuaireas leabhar a foilsíodh i mbliana, "Beatha Dhomhnaill Ui Chonnaill." Tugadh don Ghúm é i 1935 agus fuair an t-údar bocht—beannacht Dé leis— bás ó shoin. Ní féidir le héinne a bheith sásta le hobair den tsórt sin.

Tá daoine ann a cheapann, a chreideann agus a mholann gur ceart eagraíocht neamh-spleách ar fad a dhéanamh den Ghúm go dtabharfadh an Stát oiread áirithe airgid dó in aghaidh na bliana chun é a choimeád ar siúl agus ligint dó dul ar aghaidh cosúil le Bord Soláthair an Leictreachais agus Bord na Móna. Deir siad gur ceart gur eagraíocht den tsórt sin a thógfadh cúram na hoibre seo—litríocht na Gaeilge agus leabhra a sholáthar do Ghaeilgeoirí. Táim ar aon intinn gur ceart é sin a dhéanamh feasta.

Ní mór a dúrathas anseo mar gheall ar chúrsaí gairm-oideachais ach bhí socair ag Rialtas Fianna Fáil, bhí beartaithe acu, go raibh gá le timpeall 100 gairm-scoil eile ar fuid na tíre, go mór mhór gairm-scoileanna tuatha. Sílim ná fuair an tAire aon locht ar an tuairim sin. Tá eolas agam ar cheann de na gairm-scoileanna seo a dúnadh bliain ó shoin agus is dócha go bhfuil sé dúnta fós. Ceist is ea í seo a bhfuil smacht ag dream eile seachas an tAire uirthi agus is é an dream atá i gceist agam ná an coiste contae gairm-oideachais nó an coiste cathrach gairm-oideachais, do réir mar a tharlaíonn; ach san am atá caite tógadh scoil anois agus arís in áit mhí-oiriúnach, agus ba chóir féachaint chuige roimh ré, chómh maith agus is féidir, go dtoghfaí na hionaid is oiriúnaí agus is fearr, agus sa tslí sin ní bheidh aon bhaol go dteipfeadh ar cheann de na scoileanna sin. I Luimneach tá gá le dhá scoil nua eile sar a mbeidh ár ndóthain de na gairm-scoileanna sin againn. Tuigim go mbrathann sin ar an gcoiste áitiúil níos mó ná ar an Aire. Is iontach an méid maitheasa atá déanta sna scoileanna sin chun feabhas a chur ar shaol na tuatha agus ar chúrsaí na tuatha agus chun an sórt sin oideachais a leathnú níos mó ar fud na tíre.

Sílim gur thuigeas ón Aire—nílim cruinn mar gheall ar an méid adúirt sé i dtaobh na timirí Gaeilge—go raibh tuille le hoiliúint chuige sin sna blianta atá romhainn amach, agus dhein sé tagairt leis do na cruinnithe a bhí ar siúl thíos i gContae Luimnigh anuraidh—oícheanta Gaeilge a tugtar orthu—agus d'éirigh go han-mhaith leo. Is maith liom gur thug an tAire faoi ndeara an dea-obair atá ar siúl ag na timtirí sin. Is trua nach bhfuil duine nó beirt eile acu ar fáil ag an bpobal anseo agus ansiúd sna bparóistí. I gContae Luimnigh, ní dóigh liom go bhfuil aon rang den tsórt sin ar siúl acu, ach arís ní ar an Aire a bhrathann sé sin ach ar an gcoiste áitiúil. Tá an coiste gairm-oideachais i Luimneach an-mhaith agus níor staonadar riamh ón rud ceart a dhéanamh nuair a cuireadh i dtuiscint dóibh go raibh gá le rud fónta éigin a dhéanamh.

Tá an tAire ag bronnadh, do réir an mheastacháin seo, £6,000, an méid a bronnadh anuraidh, ar Chomhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge. Bhí £10,000 ag dul don chomhdháil seo sa bhliain 1948-49 agus ag an am sin ní raibh an chomhdháil sásta leis an méid a bhí á sholáthair dóibh. Theastaigh níos mó airgid uathu. Nuair a thosnaigh Aire Airgeadais an Rialtais seo ag spáráil airgid d'iompaigh sé a shúile ar an gComhdháil agus ar an deontas dóibh agus ar dheontaisí eile dá shórt. Bíodh sin mar atá, tá plean molta anois ag an gComhdháil—is dóigh liom go bhfuil siad tar éis dul chun cainte leis an Taoiseach an tseachtain seo—maidir le hobair na Gaeilge. Thuigeas ón litir a scríobh an tAire go dtí an Chomhdháil anuraidh nach raibh sé lán-tsásta leis an obair a bhí idir lámha acu. Tá rud amháin ann, pé scéal é, agus mura ndéanfadh an Chomhdháil aon rud eile ach é, b'fiú go mbeadh an Chomhdháil ann— is é sin, an Club Leabhar a chur ar bun. De bharr an Club sin a bheith bunaithe, tá sé deimhin anois ag aon scríbhneoir a scríobhann leabhair a nglacann an Club leis go ndéanfar margadh dó agus tá ag éirí go han-mhaith leis an iarracht sin. Is mór an ní gur deineadh é agus is mór an chreidiúint don Chomhdháil gur deineadh é.

Dhein mo chomh-theachta, an Teachta Ó Ruairc, cur síos ar cheist na Gaeilge, sna bunscoileanna go mór mhór, agus ba mhaith liom aontú le rud amháin adúirt sé, is é sin go bhfuil gá níos mó, go bhfuil géar-ghá le labhairt na Gaeilge a chothú in gach aon tsórt scoile. Tugtar an iomarca cúraim, is dóigh liom, don léitheoireacht agus don scríbhneoireacht agus ní tugtar aire go leor don chaint. Más féidir leis an Aire agus leis an Roinn aon phlean nó aon chleas a tharraingt chucu a mheallfadh na daltaí scoile, na mic léinn sna meánscoileanna go speisialta, chun níos mó Gaeilge a labhairt le chéile sa rang agus taobh amu dhe agus ar na faichí imeartha, beidh obair an-mhaith ar fad déanta.

Bhíos ag tagairt anseo cúpla nóimeat o shoin don athrú a rinne an tAire mar gheall ar an deontaisí le haghaidh na bpáipéirí Gaeilge. Tá airgead eile ag dul do chúrsaí oideachais in aghaidh na bliana agus ba mhaith an grádh Dé go mbeadh a chúram ar an Aire Oideachais chomh maith. Is é an tAire Airgeadais atá freagarthach ann go dtí seo, sé sin, án Vóta le haghaidh na nOllscoil. Deirtear nach ceart cur isteach ar shaoirse na nOllscoil agus tá gach éinne anseo cuid mhaith ar aon intinn leis sin, ach tá ceist faoi leith ag baint le ceist na nOllscoil sa tír seo, go mór mhór coláiste amháin. Níl sé ceart ná cóir nach mbeadh caoi ag an Dáil seo an scéal sin a phlé agus do réir mar atá an scéal faoi láthair ní féidir é a phlé. Caithfimíd an t-airgead a vótáil bliain i ndiaidh a chéile, agus gan eolas ar bith le fáil againn ar conas a caitear é nó ar cad é an beartas atá ag an dream a dtugaimíd an t-airgead dóibh.

Bhíos ag éisteacht leis an Teachta Ó Duinn sa mhéid a dúirt sé i nGaeilge, agus is trua nár lean sé i nGaeilge, mar labhair sé go cruinn agus go gonta agus go líofa. Ní bheinn ar aon aigne leis an rud a mhol sé mar gheall ar chló agus litriú. Tá sé deacair go leor ar na múinteoirí agus ar na scoláirí bheith ag plé le cló amháin agus le litriú amháin; agus go dtí go mbeadh an scéal i bhfad níos sábháilta ní dhéanfainn aon chur isteach ar na cúrsaí sin. Bhíos tráth go láidir i gcoinne aon athrú a dhéanamh ar an gcló. Do réir mar atá, do bheinn sásta le haon chló in aon chor dá mbeadh an teanga slán ó bhaol. Is minic a chuala mé an cheist dá chíoradh agus bhí sé mar thuairim ag daoine cialmhara dá nglactaí leis an gcló Rómhánach breis agus caoga blian ó shoin gurbhfhearr a bheadh an scéal inniu, mar do bheadh a lán Gaeilgeoirí i ndon é a léamh, agus bheidís i ndon na seana scéalta a scríobh síos, in ionad iad a bhreith leo go dtí an uaigh. Ós rud é nar deineadh an uair sin é, b'fhearr é d'fhágaint do ghlún eile.

Ní aontaím le cuid de na rudaí adúirt an Teachta Ó Duinn agus níl mé ar aon aigne leis sa mhéid adúirt sé mar gheall ar éigeantacht agus mar sin de. Cuid den seanphort is ea é sin. Bhí an seanphort sin le clos againn le blianta ach creidim, mar sin féin, go raibh an Teachta Ó Duinn i ndáirire sa phort a bhí ar siúl aige anocht. Is i mBéarla d'fhoghlaim mise na habhair scoile ach, bíodh siad le foghlaim againn i mBéarla nó i nGaeilge, tá orainn é a dhéanamh. Taithníodh sé linn nó ná taithníodh, bíodh suim againn ann nó ná bíodh, tá éigeanteacht de shórt áirithe ag baint leis an saghas sin oideachas. Sinne a bhí sna bun-scoileanna sa tír seo faoi na Sasanaigh, tá fhios againn go maith nach raibh rian ná rath ar an obair i nGaeilge go dtí-go rahib sé mar chúram ar gach oide scoile i ngach scoil ar fud na tíre an Ghaeilge a mhúineadh, an méid dob fhéidir sin a dhéanamh i dtosach. Anois, is é an scéal atá ann ná gur ar éigin atá scoil sa tír nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge ar siúl inti. Nuair a thosnaigh an obair 25 bliana ó shoin ní mar sin a bhí an scéal.

Ní aontaím leis an Teachta Ó Duinn gurb amhlaidh atá an scéal anois ná nach bhfuil dul ar aghaidh maith déanta in obair na Gaeilge. Tá dul ar aghaidh maith déanta agus tá athrú mór togtha sa tír seo. Aoinne adeir nach bhfuil, ní thuigeann sé an scéal agus níl aon eolas aige ar an scéal. Chonnaic mise an dá thaobh. Chonnaic mise na scoileanna sar ar tháinig an t-athrú agus tá fhios agam agus tá aithne agam ar na scoileanna agus ar na scolaírí ó tháinig an t-athrú. Is féidir dul áit ar bith ar fuid na 26 contae i láthair na huaire agus caint a dhéanamh leis na daoine óga agus ní gá duit aon fhocal amháin a rá i mBéarla. Ní mar sin a bhí an scéal nuair a thosnaigh mise mar thimire do Chonnradh na Gaeilge i mbliain a 1920, 1921 agus sna blianta ina dhiaidh sin. Chonnaic mise an t-athrú ag teacht. Chonnaic mise an lá nuair nach raibh gá focal Béarla a labhairt leis na daoine óga. Deirim gur athrú mór agus athrú le leas na tíre an t-athrú sin agus táim buíoch de Dhia gur ceadaíodh dom an lá sin d'fheiscint.

Captain Giles

The calm atmosphere in which the Estimate for the Department of Education has been discussed certainly augurs well for the future of education in this country. The Minister deserves the nation's thanks. He has allayed many of the old fears, bitternesses and troubles of the teaching profession. The laying of a solid foundation in that respect augurs well for the future.

We have heard a great deal for some time past about a council of education. It has recently been established. From the names of the members of the council and from what I hear, I think that we have a national Brains Trust with a proper balance and from that should spring a proper system of education for the country. After all, our greatest bulwark is a contented teaching profession. The Minister has made every effort to bring about that state of affairs. It is unfortunate that in the past few years there were troubled times in the teaching profession. Even yet, things are not what they should be but, slowly but surely, they are being set right. I assure the Minister that the majority of the teachers are very thankful—more than thankful—for what he has done for them.

A fair number of young teachers in this country are rather dissatisfied with their conditions, and rightly so. These young people, who are on the lower rungs of the ladder, find that their salaries are far too small to enable them to cope with present-day conditions. I know some of them and they are in the unhappy position that if they want to get married they cannot do so because their salaries would not be sufficient to cater for two. They really have a grievance. I would ask the Minister to consider their position sympathetically and to see that the younger teachers get an increase in their salaries. I feel sure that the financial resources of the State will permit of that being done. That is one grievance which I find among the younger teachers. The middleaged and the older teachers are well satisfied with what the Minister has done and they are very thankful to him.

The principal thing about which I wish to speak to-night is education in the country districts—I do not know much about the matter as it affects the big cities. I am satisfied that a good deal of work has to be done to provide proper schools in my county. Very many of the schools there are not fit to house cattle, let alone children. Some effort should be made to get on with the proper building of new schools. The Minister is a good man for that job and, with the co-operation of the Department, the managers and the teachers, I hope it will be done with the greatest speed.

The school-leaving age is a big prolem, too. We see young people of 14 years rambling about until they are 15 and even 16. I hope the Council of Education will look into that matter and see if anything can be done in respect of the school-leaving age. That period in a young person's life is the period during which we can lay the real foundation for a good future. If a young boy is allowed to drift between the ages of 14 and 17 he may become a wastrel whereas if his mind is focussed on a proper line of thought he can become a fine honourable man and a credit to his family and his country. Therefore, every effort should be made to hold on to these young people in their manhood and girlhood and to mould their characters so that they will become good citizens. We must not forget that it is on these young people we are depending for the future national balance of a good progressive nation. We can have that if we take the proper steps in good time. I know that the matter is safe when it is in the Minister's hands. I know that he is thinking of these problems and trying to find a solution of them. If we have contended teachers, good schools and co-operation between the managers, the parents, the teachers and the Minister, there is no earthly reason why we cannot lay a good foundation for the future of education in this country. No serious grievance should ever again be permitted to exist amongst the teaching profession. Every effort should be made to prevent such a state of affairs and the strike which we had should never occur again.

There are two people in this House to whom I would entrust the future of the national language and these two people are the present Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. With the present Minister in charge—and with the outlook which he has—the language is safe in his hands. There is no need to talk about the question of the Irish language so far as the Minister for Education is concerned. He will see to it that slowly but surely the Irish nation will emerge solid and balanced. I thank the Minister for all he has done on behalf of the nation and the teachers and hope that the few remaining grievances of the teachers will be removed and that the Council of Education will prove most successful.

Mrs. Redmond

I have just a few words to say on this Estimate. I feel rather strongly about it, because I consider that it is one of the most important, if not the most important, that will be coming before the House this year. I agree with the last speaker that education is safe in the hands of the present Minister. I realise, however, that he has a very difficult task before him if he is going to face facts and I want to put a few facts before him this evening; perhaps they are not popular ones, but they represent what the general public think. I think that public money should be spent in the way that is best for the nation. It is all very fine to vote away money here and to have high ideals with regard to one thing or another without caring how the money is spent or from whence or where it comes. I think the best thing for one to do is to say what one thinks and feels with regard to the Estimate under review.

As other speakers have said, there is much to be done so far as many of our rural schools are concerned. Many of us, perhaps, are led away by looking at some magnificent school in the city or large town, whether it be a technical school, a Christian Brothers' school, or whatever kind of school it may be. But, in the country wayside places such as I have to visit on occasions there is very much to be desired so far as the children's comfort and the teachers' comfort are concerned. We all realise that if the children have not comfort they have not any encouragement to go to school and that there is very little encouragement for parents to allow them to go on wet days, because, unfortunately, many of the schools are not very well heated and in fact are not fit for human habitation at all. Therefore, instead of some waste of money which I consider is at present going on in this Department, it would be wiser to spend that particular amount of money on the reconstruction of schools or building of new schools in these outlying districts with regard to which I understand the Minister will in time be notified. I would ask the Minister particularly to look into this question of the heating of the schools and the building of new schools. It is not fair to have everything centralised in the city or in the towns to the detriment of the people in the country disticts, because everyone has his own part to play so far as the nation's future is concerned.

It is important that we should have contented teachers. In the past we have had some disputes and discontented teachers. Unless your heart is in whatever type of job you have you will not have the will to work in whatever line you are engaged. Therefore, I believe the Minister has done a very wise thing in setting up this Council of Education. Glancing over the names of the members, I feel that these people will, in their judgment and wisdom, recognise the genuine grievances whether of the teachers as a whole, or of individual teachers. I think it is a good thing that teachers' grievances can be rectified through the Council of Education. I think the setting up of this council is a wise step to take, because it will relieve the Minister of many things in the inner working of the Department which possibly he may not have time to concentrate his attention upon. I think it is a very good thing to have somebody in an advisory capacity on whom he can rely for information on these things. I have no doubt that these people will advise without fear of being contradicted if they believe they are right and without fear of being criticised for having the courage of their convictions in saying what they think and what they believe to be right, whether it is a popular or an unpopular thing to say. That is their function, because this council is being set up to be helpful in regard to the promotion of education.

We have heard a good deal about the strides we have made in this country in the past and the strides we are now making so far as education is concerned. I happen to come in touch with a few people from time to time who have quite a different opinion. Much as they would like to throw bouquets at any particular Department, which is the popular thing to do, they regret that they cannot throw them so far as the general education of the children of the present day is concerned. Many people feel that, instead of making strides ahead so far as education is concerned this country has gone backwards and that our children are not now as well educated to earn a livelihood and to face the world as they were heretofore when they had not many of the present-day advantages. I think that many people, if they analyse the truth of that statement, will have to say to themselves, whether they like it or not, that it is a true one. We hear a lot of talk about things that are popular, but we should deal with facts. One fact is that we have children leaving school at the age of 14 and we are told that it would cost too much money to keep them on for another year. The years between 14 and 16 are most important for a boy or girl who is looking towards some future employment. If they could be kept at school for at least another year, the money which that would cost would be very well spent. We should make that compulsory, because at that time they are beginning to realise that they are fitting themselves for an opportunity to earn a livelihood when they come to the age of 15 or 16. Before they are 14, children have not got sense to realise their future responsibilities. If they were kept at school between 14 and 15 years of age, they would realise then and set their minds to training themselves, but we have been told that it would cost too much money.

In my opinion, a lot of money has been wasted upon the teaching of compulsory Irish. That may be an unpopular thing to say, but it is a sensible thing so far as the people in the country districts and the people generally are concerned. It is all very fine to make suggestions and to have high ideals, but to put them into practice is not so easy if you have not a thorough knowledge of the language which the general public understand and which they wish you to speak when making application for a job. I have no objection whatever to the teaching of Irish, but I think that it can be overdone. Many teachers and managers of secondary and national schools have said to me that it would be much more satisfactory if it could be taught as a language as it was before, when people learned it because it was their native language. It was an ordinary subject which you learned, not because you were forced and because it was pushed down your neck and was something you had to go through with the fear of failing the examination at the end of the year, and possibly failing the entrance examination for some profession simply because you failed in Irish, which meant that you took an instant dislike to the language without knowing the reason. It would be a much better idea to let people learn it because it is their native language and because they should love it. It should not mean failure in an examination simply because you are not a brilliant Irish speaker because, in the main, the Irish is left behind when the job is got.

It is time for plain talking and for reasonable people, in the hurry and bustle of 1950, to get down to brass tacks and to understand that everybody has to make a living, and that it does not make sense simply to talk a lot about the language and to have a lot of money spent on it while our schools need heating and re-equipment, while our teachers, perhaps, have various grievances, while our children are not educated as they used to be and while, generally, the public are discontented and disgusted. That is what I think about the whole situation.

I would urge the Minister to consider relaxing to some degree this business of failing a candidate in every examination if he does not know his subject through the medium of Irish, because in my time it gave everyone enough to do the subjects in the language which they knew. It gave me my best to learn anything I did learn in the language I knew and to pass an examination in that language. It is very hard for a child who has not got Irish in the home environment to learn mathematics or other subjects through the medium of Irish and to have the same success as he would have if he was encouraged to do it without dislike or dread when June comes for the final leaving examination. I think it is unjust to the schools who have not got 100 per cent. Irish that they should be penalised and other schools put in a prior position to those who are equally good in their own way.

There is the question of the technical schools. A great deal of money has been spent in the last few years on these magnificent buildings, but I am inclined to think, and I think many people are inclined to think, that many of the advantages of these technical schools are not availed of. Very few seem to avail of the magnificent opportunities now afforded to them by the State for which, long ago, people had to pay. I hope the Minister will review this matter. I hope the Council of Education will review it also and see if something could be done to make it compulsory that children should attend for a certain number of hours each week at the technical school in their particular district, wherever they are lucky enough to have one. We have always been told that a girl's place is in the home. How few young girls at the present time know how to do anything in the home, although within a mile or two of their own home there may be a technical school that will teach them, free of charge, how to do things and the best way to equip themselves for their future life. The same applies to boys. Many crafts can be taught in these schools, free of charge, and a boy can make himself proficient in such things as carpentry or other crafts that would be very helpful to him in future life.

I would ask the Minister to make a special note of this point and to consider, quite apart from the school-leaving age being raised by, say, another year, whether it should be made compulsory that every boy and girl should attend for a few hours at least each week at the ordinary technical school, which very often is within reach of their homes. It is not too much to expect a boy or girl to have some sort of finish at the age of 16. Something ought to be done by the State in regard to this matter that has been so neglected in the past. In 1950 Ireland can wake up to the fact that, with the advantages we have now, compared with long ago, our boys and girls should be made wise. They should be compelled to attend the technical schools for a few hours each week just as the child is compelled to attend school.

Gearóid MacPharthaláin

Chuir mé an-spéis sa chaint a rinne an cainteoir deireannach i dtaobh caighdeán oideachais. Dúirt sí nach bhfuil an caighdeán chomh hard agus a bhí sé sa tsean-am. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil sé chomh hard. Thug sí mar údar tuige a bheadh sé mar sin, an Ghaeilge a bheith a húsáid sna scoileanna. Ba mhaith liom mheabhrú do na daoine atá ag cleamhsán faoin chaighdeán gan a bheith chomh hard agus ba chóir, go bhfuil daoine i dtíortha eile ag déanamh an chlamhsáin chéanna.

Le linn an Chogaidh, casadh bean Shasanach liom féin. Tá mé ag ceapadh gur innis mé an scéal seo cheana ar an Meastachán seo. Tá sé meabhraithe arís dom mar gheall ar an gcaint an a rinne an cainteoir deireannach. Ba mháistreás scoile a bhí sa mnaoi sin a casadh liom. Dúirt sí liom gurbh é a tuairim daingean go raibh an caighdeán oideachais sa tír seo rud éigin níos airde ná mar atá sé i Sasana. Dúirt mé féin léi go raibh malairt tuairime ag daoine áirithe sa tír seo agus go raibh siad ag fáil locht ar mhúineadh na Gaeilge mar gheall air. "Shiúl mé an tír thré chéile," adeir sí, "agus tá mé lán-chinnte de go bhfuil cailíní na hÉireann níos oilte ná cailíní den aois chéanna i Sasana."

Má tá meath ar bith ar oideachas sa tír seo, ba cheart go mbeadh na cainteoirí atá ad iarraidh an locht d'fhágáil ar mhúineadh na Gaeilge, smaoineadh níos dóimhne a dhéanamh ar an gceist agus, má dhéanann siad san, tuigfidh siad, pé ar bith meath atá ar an nGaeilge, gurb iad na rudaí céanna is údar le meath na Gaeilge agus is údar le meath an oideachais i gcoitinne.

Níl sé fíor a rá go raibh na daoine níos oilte fadó. Ar ndóigh bfhéidir go bhfuil scéal fé leith sa dáil cheantar a bhfuil mise mar Theachta Dáil dhó ach féadfaidh mé a rá anois nach bhfuil an oiread daoine a fuair scolaíocht le deich mbliana fichead anuas gan a bheith i ndon litir a scríobhadh nó a léamh agus a bhí. Bhí i bhfad Éireann níos mó ann gan eolas ar bith acu ar scríobhadh i nGaeilge nó i mBéarla. Tá rud amháin sa tír seo nach raibh ann cheana, is é sin, go bhfuil formhór na ndaltaí scoile a bhí ar scoil le scór blian anuas i ndon an Béarla agus an Ghaeilge a scríobhadh. Luíonn sé le réasún ar ndóigh nach mbeadh muinntir na Galltachta i ndon an Ghaeilge a scríobhadh chomh maith le muinntir na Gaeltachta agus vice versa ach san am chéanna tá an dá dhream ann agus an ceangal sin eatarthu anois nach raibh eatarthu ariamh cheana. Dá mbeadh féin-rialtas ag an tír seo—im thuairimse ar aon chuma—agus cúrsaí oideachais faoi stiúrú agus faoi smacht mhuintir na hÉireann deich mbliana fichead nó dhá scór blian ó shoin agus an deis oideachais ag na daoine an t-ám úd atá acu anois, tá mé lán-chinnte go mbeadh an Ghaeilge leath-shábháilte anois.

Ar ndóigh is fíor go mbíonn an saol nua ag cur isteach ar chúrsaí na Gaeilge chomh maith le cúrsaí oideachais i gcoitinne. Tá fhios agamn nuair a bhíonn tarramgtí eile ag chur isteach ar dhaoine óga nach mbíonn dúil acu sa léann. Ní maith leis an aos óg—agus níor mhaith leo ariamh—a bheith sáite sna leabhra, sáite sa staidéar, agus caitheamh aimsire nó siamsa le fáil acu. Pé ar bith rud eile is féidir a rá faoi, tá an saol níos siamsúla anois ná mar a bhí ariamh. Ní féidir a rá ámh, go bhfuil múineadh na Gaeilge ag cur isteach ar an oideachas. Má tá fonn ar dhalta an Gheilge a d'fhoghlaim beidh fonn air Béarla agus áireamh agus na hábhair eile a d'fhoghlaim agus mura bhfuil fonn air an Ghaeilge d'fhoghlaim ní bheidh fonn air aon cheo eile d'fhoghlaim. Tá fhios againn ón am a rabhamar féin ar scoil nach mórán fonn a bhíos ar an aos óg foghlaim ar bith a thógáil.

Rinneadh tagairt anseo don Chomhairle Oideachais agus b'fhéidir nach bhfuilim ar an intinn chéanna agus a bhí bliain ó shoin nuair a mhol mé don Aire gan a leithide a chur ar bun ar chor ar bith. Níl fhios agam cén tuairim atá agam anois, ach tá rud amháin brúite isteach im intinn, is é sin, go bhfuil gluaiseacht na Gaeilge laidir sa tír i gcónaí pé ar bith rud is féidir a rá faoi dhul chun cinn na Gaeilge féin. Ní gá dhom a rá go raibh fonn ar dhaoine bheith ag moladh don Aire, Comhairle Oideachais a chur ar bun mar gurb é an rud a bhí thiar in a n-intinn go gcuirfeadh an chomhairle deireadh leis an rud ar a dtugtar "compulsory Irish." Tá sé cruthaithe anois, tá mé ag ceapadh, ón taobh sin den scéal ar chuma ar bith, go bhfuil an chomhairle neamh-urchóideach, agus ní féidir linn tuairim ar bith eile a bheith againn faoi mar níor shuíodar fós. Dúirt an tAire nach mbeidh feidhmeanna le comhlíonadh ag an dream seo ach go mbeidh siad ag plé le tuairimí agus le teoiricí. Ní dona an rud é sin ar ndóigh mar tá an tír seo lán le tuairimí agus le teoiricí agus is maith an rud go bhfuil áit éigin ann chun na tuairimí agus na teoiricí a chur á bplé agus meas ceart a thabhairt orthu. Ar ndóigh níl an oiread sin cainte anois ar Chomhairle Oideachais agus a bhí sul ar cuireadh ar bun é. Cruthaíonn sé sin go bhfuil gluaiseacht na Gaeilge, mar atá ráite sa tuarascáil a chuir Comdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge amach, chomh láidir agus a bhí sé nuair a cuireadh Conradh na Gaeilge ar bun i dtosach báire.

Mhol mé cheana, sul ar tháinig an Rialtas seo isteach, anuraidh agus arú anuraidh, agus tá mé ag dul á mholadh anois—agus feicim freisim é i dtuarascáil na Comdhála—gur ceart níos mó aire a thabhairt do labhairt na Gaeilge sna scoileanna. Ar ndóigh ní hé sin mo thuairimse féin amháin. Dúirt múinteoirí scoile liom i scoileanna taoibh amuigh den bhfíor-Ghaeltacht go bhfuil caighdeán réasúnta ann maidir le scríobhadh agus le léamh na Gaeilge ach go bhfuil na daltaí an-lag ar fad nuair a thagann sé chomh fada le comhrá ná caint a dhéanamh. Chuir mé an-spéis sa rud arís nuair a léigh mé an tuarascáil a chuír Comhdáil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge amach. Ar na riachtanaisí is práinní cuireann siad an ceann sin, gur ceart tuílle aire a thabhairt do labhairt na Gaeilge. Ní gá dhomsa níos mó a rá faoi sin. Dúirt an Teachta Ó Briain, an Teachta Ó Ruairc agus daoine eile é agus is cosúil, nuair atá go leor daoine ar an tuairim chéanna, gur ceart rud éigin a dhéanamh faoi.

Maidir le ceist seo na Gaeilge caithfidh mé rud éigin a rá anseo faoi intínn agus faoi aigne mhuintír na Fíor-Ghaeltachta. Tá mé féin ag ceapadh go bhfuil an iomarca cainte á dhéanamh faoin nGaeltacht bhocht. Déanann daoine caint—agus admhaím go bhfuil a gcroí san áit cheart agus go bhfuil siad dílis agus dúthrachtach—ach ní féidir bheith ar aon tuairim eile ach go bhfuil siad adiarraidh áit faoi leith a dhéanamh den Ghaeltacht ar nós na reservations i Meiriceá a bhíos ag na hIndiaigh Dhearga. Tá mé féin ag ceapadh go bhfuil sé sin gan céill, gan réasún, gan tuiscint, gan breithiúnas. Is minic a chuir mé ceist ag cruinnithe sa bhFíor-Gaeltacht ar mhuintír na Gaeltachta, agus nuair adeirim go bhfuil daoine taoibh amuigh agus faitíos orthu go bhfuil an Ghaeltacht ag meath agus an Ghaeilge ag fáil bháis ann is é an freagra a fhághaim go mbeadh fonn ar mhuintir na Fíor-Ghaeltachta an Ghaeilge a choinneáil beo i gcónaí an fhaid is a bheadh fhios acu agus go mbeadh siad cinnte go bhfuil muintir na hÉireann fré chéile á iarraidh, ach má brúitear isteach in intinn na Fíor-Ghaeltachta nach bhfuil muintir na hÉireann ach ag mugadhmagadh faoi cheist na Gaeilge, ón lá sin amach tréigfidh muintir na Fíor-Ghaeltachta an Ghaeilge. Is minic adúradar liom gur mó an sondas a chuirfidís i scéala ar bith a thaispeánfadh dhóibh go raibh na daoine taoibh amuigh, i gcathair na Gaillimhe in Áth Luain, i mBaile Átha Cliath agus sna cathracha eile, ag cur níos mó spéise sa teangain, nó dá bhfeicfeadh siad iad ag dul isteach in a sluaite in amharclainn ag breathnú ar scannáin i nGaeilge nó ag dul ina sluaite ag breathnú ar dhrámaí i nGaeilge agus mar sin de.

Dar ndóigh is í an teanga a bheas ag an náisiún an teanga a bheas ag muintir na Gaeltachta sa deire agus cé thógfadh ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta é sin?

Sé an tseirbhís is mó a dhéanfas leas do mhuintir na Gaeltachta ina dtír féin ar chuma ar bith, seirbhís an oideachais. Tá níos mó maitheasa agus leasa déanta do mhuintír na Gaeltachta ag na scoláireachtaí agus rudaí den tsórt sin ná aon cheo eile. As sin, tagann an smaoineamh eile gur ceart, má tá buanaíocht ar bith le bheith sna seirbhísí atá á gcur i leataoibh ar mhaithe leis an nGaeltacht, tuille airgid a sholáthar le tuille oideachais a thabhairt doibh. Níl mé a rá gur ceart iad go leír a chur isteach sna Ollscoileanna nó na meánscoileanna. Tá gá, agus b'fhéidir gá géar, le scoileanna gairm-oideachais a sholáthar. Tá trí cinn molta le tamall anuas do Ghaeltacht Chonamara—an Chloch Bhreac, an Cnoc agus Oileán Arann. Ba mhaith liom iad sin a fheiceáil ar bun sul a thiocfas an Meastachán seo arís os comhair na Dála. Ar nós cuid eile den tír, níl gach duine óg sa Ghaeltacht in ndon an buntáiste is fearr a bhaint as an meánscolaíocht nó an ollscolaíocht, agus ba cóir, má támaid i ndáríoibh i dtaobh sábháil na Gaeltachta aon rud is féidir a dhéanamh chun tuille seirbhísí den tsórt sin a chur ar fáil dóibh.

Rinne an Teachta Ó Briain tagairt do scéal na Gaeilge agus don chló agus don litriú. Ní dóigh liom gur gâ bheith ag déanamh scéal mór den chló nó den litríocht, agus is é mo thuirim féin go bhfuil sé thar am an litriú nua a chur i gcion. Is cuimhin liom nuair a thosnaigh mé ag léamh na Gaeilge gur beag nár scanradh mé nuair a chonaic mé na focla agus ba míorúilt é dá bhfédfainn na fuaimeanna adúirt an máistir linn a bhaint as an lítriú a bhí ar na focla. Tá mé ag ceapadh go bhfuil na daoine atá ag tosnú ar léamh na Gaeilge anois ar an tuairim chéanna. B'fhéidir go dtabharfadh an tAire agus é ag cur deireadh leis an díospóireacht seo eolas éigín dúinn faoin bhfoclóir nua mar ní dóigh liom go ndearna sé tagarit ar bith dó sa ráiteas a thug sé dúinn. Ba mhaith liom freisin a fháil amach cén litriú a bheas ann. Tá mé ag ceapadh, os rud é go bhfuil glactha leis an litriú nua, gur ceart go mbeadh an litriú sin sa bhfoclóir nua sin.

Níor mhaith liom aon cheist achrannach a thabhairt isteach sa díospóireacht seo mar faoi na ceisteanna móra is dócha go bhfuilmuid uilig ar aon intinn. Is trua go mbreathnaítear ar an Meastachán seo mar Mheastachán na Gaeilge. Ní dóigh liom gur ceart é sin. Tá sé sin ar nós an rud a rinneadh mar gheall ar "Seachtain na Gaeilge." Tá daoine ag clamhsán mar gheall ar sheachtain amháin Gaeilge sa mbliain agus is dógh liom gur cosúil an clamhsán sin le breathnú ar an Meastacán seo mar an t-aon mheastachán amháin a bhaineas le sábháil na Gaeilge. Ba cheart go mbeadh baint leis an gceist sin ag gach aon mheastachán chomh maith leis an Meastachán seo. Níl aon dhream faoi leith sa Tigh ar aon taobh ciontach sa rud sin

Mar dúras, níl mé ad iarraidh aon cheist achrannach a thabhairt isteach sa díospóireacht, ach ba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh don choiste a scrúdaigh ceist tuarastal na múinteoirí, Coiste Roe. Ní fheicim aon difríocht idir an méid a dhein an Rialtas seo agus an rud a rinne sean-Rialtas Fianna Fáil ach amháin gur chuir an Rialtas seo coiste ar bun, gí go raibh sé socraithe roimh ré cad é an méid airgid a soláthrófaí do na múinteoirí. Marach go raibh an scéal amhlaidh, ní dóigh liom go glacfaí le Minority Report. B'fhearr i bhfad, agus bheadh sé i bhfad níos sásúla sa deireadh dá n-abróidh an tAire leis na múinteoirí, leis an I.N.T.O.: "Tá an oiread seo airgid le fáil agaibh agus roinnigí sibh féin é." Sin é an rud a dhein Fianna Fáil agus gí nach raibh na múinteoirí sásta, tá mé ag ceapadh nár fágadh chomh dían iad agus a fágadh an t-am seo iad.

Tá muid uilig ar aon intinn i dtaobh na múinteoirí. Ba mhaith le gach dream sa tír seo go mbeadh na múinteoirí sásta, mar, sa deireadh thiar thall, támuid ag brath ar na múinteoirí agus ar na bunscoileanna le bunchloch na Gaeilge a shábháil. Tá fhios againn go bhfuil dualgaisí ar an Aire agus ar an Rialtas i dtaobh airgid phoiblí agus an bealach ar ceart é a chaitheamh agus nach bhfuil iallach ar bith orthu glacadh le moladh Ó choiste ar bith. San am céanna, is dócha go bhfuil fhios ag an Aire anois gur chuir sé dallamullóg ar na múinteoirí, gur chuir sé amú iad, nuair a chuir sé an coiste sin ar bun. Tá súir agam nach ndéanfar aon bhotún mal sin aon uair eile, mar ní dóigh liom gur ceart dream mar na múinteoirí a chur amú mar sin. Is iad an dream si tábhachtaí atá in ár measc iad agus caithfimid iad a shásamh chomh maith is fhéadfaimid. Mar adúirt mé, tá muid ag brath orthu leis an nGaeilge a shábháil. Tá muid ag brath ar shábháil na Gaeilge agus tá mé ar aon intinn leis an gcainteoir deireannach i dtaobh airgid a chaitheamh ar na rudaí tábhachtacha. Muna bhfuil duine ar thaobh sábháil na Gaeilge, tá mé ar aon intinn leis nó léi gur airgead amú é pingin ar bith a chaitheamh ar mhúineadh na Gaeilge. Má chreideann duíne go bhfuil muid ar nós cuma liom i dtaobh sábháil na Gaeilge, ní cheart pingin a chaitheamh, ach má chreideann go mbeadh anam na tíre caillte dá gcailltí an Ghaeilge, ansin ní féidir a rá go bhfuil leath ár ndóthain á chaitheamh ar shábháil na Gaeilge.

Mr. Palmer

It is rather interesting to find so many Deputies anxious to speak on this Vote for the advancement of education, since when speaking outside I am afraid we are all rather guilty in that, as a rule, we seldom refer to this question. After all, it may be regarded as one of the most important with which the country has to deal. It has been truly said that the progress of a nation depends on the education of its people, so while it does not appear to be a popular subject with the ordinary electorate, there are, of course, very many people who are most anxious for the proper education of their children. Therefore, it is only right that all the facilities possible should be afforded to the children of the nation so that they will grow up to be good citizens. This is a question that should not be dealt with from a political point of view, and I am very glad to see that during the whole course of the debate it has been dealt with as one on which all Parties are agreed that we should join together to try and do our best for the welfare of our people in the matter of education.

I think it was Deputy Giles who, when paying a tribute to the present Minister, referred also to the present Leader of the Opposition. In all fairness, I, too, would like at this stage to mention in passing that during the short time he was Minister for Education the teachers were satisfied that he was one of the best that we had up to that period. He was certainly better than the one he replaced and who afterwards succeeded him. We often wondered, as teachers, why it was that the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party did not control more the activities, or perhaps the inactivities, of the Minister whom he appointed.

When dealing with education, we must think first of all of the child and what can be done in order that he may receive the best possible education that the State can afford. In order that that may be done, we must think of those responsible for his education and see that everything possible is done to have a well-trained, fullyequipped and contented body of teachers. We must see that the schools in which the child is taught are some of the best built, best equipped and most comfortable buildings in the State. So far as the teacher is concerned, we must make sure that the conditions under which he works and the system of inspection which sees that he does his work efficiently are such as to give him thorough confidence.

As regards the training of the teacher, I do not think that the best possible method is being employed. At the present time the vast majority of teachers have to enter a preparatory school, where they are segregated more or less from the rest of the community for a period of four years. After that they have to spend two years in a training college. I forget when that system was introduced, but I hold that a teacher, to be fully qualified, should be able to carry out his duties not only on behalf of the children but from the social point of view. It would be a much better system if the candidate for the profession of teacher would first of all proceed to the university, where he would take out a degree, B.A., or B.Sc., or something like that, just as the students there have to do for entrance to other professions—or teaching could be made a profession there. Having obtained that degree, if he or she wished to enter the teaching profession, there would be two years in a training college, not perhaps, as at present, cut away, but ensuring that they would gain more experience in the various types of school in the vicinity of the college. Then those teachers would enter the profession fully equipped, certainly feeling they had no inferiority complex and that they could do their part for the welfare of the children they had to teach. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adojurned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 25th April, 1950.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 20 Apr 1950

Committee on Finance. - Vota 39—Oifig an Aire Oideachais, (ar leanúint).

Seán Ó Duinn

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Apr 1950