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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 2 May 1950

Vol. 120 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48—Forestry.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £413,630 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1951, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (No. 13 of 1946), including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land.

The work of the Forestry Division during the past year has been devoted, on the one hand, to preparations for the expanded programme and, on the other, to the carrying out of the normal annual programme.

In the matter of land acquisition, this has been very satisfactory, as during the last year the Forestry Division acquired 9,122½ acres, as compared with 3,777 acres during the preceding year. Agreement has also been reached with private owners for the purchase of 10,867 acres. The corresponding position last year was that agreement had been reached for the purchase of 6,427 acres. In addition, offers have been issued, or will issue very shortly, for the purchase of 10,634 acres from private owners. The Land Commission is also constantly on the watch for suitable land for afforestation and it is expected that 15,369 acres will be transferred to the Forestry Division in the near future. There are also some 4,207 acres which have been jointly inspected and which it is hoped the Land Commission will be in a position to transfer at a later date. In spite of my request last year, offers of isolated areas of from one to 20 acres are still being received in considerable numbers. Such offers are only a waste of time for everybody concerned, unless the land offered is contiguous to existing State forests. A second feature is that lands are being offered at fantastic prices, far in excess of what they would fetch in the open market. I want again to bring to the notice of the public that small offers such as these, unless they are situated close to an existing forest, will not be considered and that a special grant of £10 per acre is available to every private landowner who wishes to plant any area from one acre upwards.

Except for a very limited area of arable land still required for nursery purposes, the type mainly required must be purchasable at not more than £8 per acre in fee simple, and it is perfectly useless to offer inferior grazing land at prices from £15 to £50 per acre.

The position at the time the Government announced the expansion in the forestry programme was that an entirely inadequate staff was available in the Department to deal with the huge number of offers that started to pour in the moment the expansion was announced. That position has been improved but still not enough to my satisfaction yet. The total number of acquisition officers is now eight and I will not be satisfied until that number is doubled. Each offer must be inspected personally by an acquisition officer. The land must be appraised for suitability, for the type of timber which will develop best on it and must be valued for price. A very exhaustive report has to be furnished by the acquisition officer in each case.

An outstanding event took place during the year and that was the establishment at Dundrum Sawmills in Tipperary of two drying kilns which were opened a short time ago and which are already working very satisfactorily. This is only a beginning. The purpose of these kilns is to put on the market. Irish grown and Irish sawn timber in as good a condition as the best of foreign imported. The quality of Irish grown timber is second to none in the world, in my opinion, and it is in the failure of the after felling treatment that Irish timber has been looked upon as being inferior to foreign.

The sawmills at Dundrum have been completely rebuilt and reorganised and I am happy to inform the House that this is now one of the most up-to-date sawmills in the country. A similar reconstruction of Cong will take place as soon as possible, as the present site is unsuitable and the machinery is, to say the least of it, antiquated. It is hoped to erect two, if not four, drying kilns in Cong as soon as circumstances permit.

The nursery acreage has been increased appreciably during the year but will, inside the next two years, have to be increased still further until a total nursery acreage of something in the region of 750 acres is reached. The full nursery acreage will not be necessary until about this time next year as by that time the increased quantity of seed sown last year will need sufficient ground for the planting out prior to the final act of planting in the forest. The total amount of seeds sown last spring was 14,200 lbs. weight. Deputies may be surprised at this huge quantity but the experts say that taking into account failure to germinate, culls, the danger of a severe frost thinning their numbers, that any less quantity would be insufficient, if we are to have sufficient transplants for the 25,000 acre programme in the season 1952-53. Deputies who are keenly interested in forestry but who may not have sufficient experience of actual conditions must hold their impatience in check until these transplants are ready for planting out, as a period of three years must elapse between the sowing of the seed and the time when the young transplant is barely strong enough to be planted out in the forest.

The collection of home-grown seeds has been very satisfactory during the year and a record quantity will be available for sowing this spring. It is the belief in the Forestry Department that home-grown seeds will produce better transplants and eventually better matured seeds than foreign seeds.

An outstanding event was the completion of the forestry survey, which has revealed that there are 1,200,000 acres of land in this country more suitable to tree-planting than to any other possible use. Deputies should bear in mind that this 1,200,000 acres is all owned by private individuals and I should say that the vast bulk of it is owned by small farmers. This area is not to be taken as the limit of plantable land, but should be regarded as the minimum. I am having a map prepared on the basis of this survey. The map will show the areas in which there are greatest possibilities of afforestation and preference must be given in the development of these areas. I hope to make the map available to interested Deputies at an early date.

It is hoped to obtain this summer the advice of two foreign experts on soil suitability. The first, a Canadian of distinction and wide experience, will examine typical mountain areas scheduled as plantable and will advise upon the desirability and possibility of transferring these areas from their present use as rough grazing to forestry purposes. The second, a Finnish expert of international repute, will give us the benefit of the wide experience of the Finnish Forestry Service in the drainage and planting of boglands. The establishment of a research station is also being considered.

Because of the small planting programme which the Forestry Department were engaged in so far, it was easy to prepare by hand the small areas of unplantable or doubtful quality ground. With the expanded programme, it is anticipated that at least from 13,000 to 15,000 acres per year will have to be treated or prepared so as to ensure that a healthy, vigorous crop will follow. That brought me up against the position of mechanical preparation of this huge area, and it was decided to purchase our own equipment, which includes tractors of a heavy and special type, ploughs and other implements, also of a very heavy type. As the Forestry Department had none of this special equipment so far and had no experience of the most suitable type for the nature of work done, it was necessary for me to visit the Scottish and English forests where such equipment was at work, for the purpose of ascertaining the best type to suit our own conditions.

I hoped to exceed the 8,000 acres which we planted this year, but we had not sufficient transplants in the nurseries to reach the 10,000 acre mark which I was hoping we would be able to attain. The question of importing transplants thereupon arose and I decided not to import plants as they might introduce diseases into this country from which we are comparatively free at the moment. It is doubtful if the transplants would be available had we gone searching for them.

The Estimate for the coming year represents an increase of £144,760 on the amount provided for 1949-50, but does not contain provision for the increases in the wages of forestry labourers recently announced. The minimum wages paid to forest workers is now 62/- a week and I may find it necessary, at a later stage, to ask the Dáil for increased provision on this account in preference to curtailing the programme of operations contemplated.

In dealing with the different items in the Estimate, I propose to deal at length only with those sub-heads which show an appreciable difference as compared with last year.

Under sub-head A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—£97,594—the increase, £6,250, is due mainly to an increase in the number of technical officers and to an increase in the rates of salary paid to foresters of all grades.

Under sub-head B—Travelling Expenses—£12,250—provision is made for the travelling expenses and allowances of the technical staff and of such of the clerical staff as are obliged to travel on official business. The increase of £2,250 is required on account of increased numbers and increased travelling for land acquisition purposes.

The provision under sub-head C— Acquisition of Land: Grant-in-Aid— £65,000—represents an increase of £40,000 over the amount provided last year. As this is a Grant-in-Aid, the balance at the end of the year is not surrendered but is carried over to the next year. The balance carried over from last year is approximately £23,250, making a total of £88,250 out of which about £6,000 will be required to pay Land Commission annuities and rents of leased lands, leaving a balance of approximately £82,050 for new purchases during the current financial year.

In sub-head C (2)—Forest Development and Maintenance—£428,330—the main item in the Forestry Estimates— some changes have been made in the form and the expenditure is now set out under the headings of nursery expenditure, capital, constructional and maintenance expenditure. Under the first heading is borne all the cost of raising transplants in the nursery to the stage at which they are fit to be planted out. To capital expenditure will be charged the cost of drainage and the initial preparation of land for planting and the construction of new roads and buildings. These will be mainly non-recurring and will not appear in the second or subsequent rotations. This heading will also bear the cost of new machinery, stores, etc. To constructional expenditure will be charged the cost of new fencing, planting and the replacement of failures, etc., and to maintenance the cost of the after-care of plantations including fence repair, drainage repairs, grass cleaning, etc.

Earlier on I gave some figures as to orders placed for supplies of seed and though it is not possible at this stage to state exactly what quantities will finally arrive or what precisely the home collection will amount to every effort is being made to build up stocks in the nurseries. Unfortunately, it is still difficult to secure adequate supplies of Pinus Contorta, a species which is showing remarkable ability to succeed on poor and exposed sites and on which, so far as can be foreseen at present, more and more reliance must be placed in future.

The growth of the plantations laid down in earlier years, which have now reached the thinning stage, necessitates a constantly increasing programme of road construction for extraction purposes and up to the present thinnings of all sorts continue to find a ready market. Additional roads, moreover, facilitate the movement of staff and equipment in the event of fire, a danger which grows continually with the increase in the area planted. On account of this danger it is desirable that foresters should be housed in suitable positions on or adjacent to the areas under their charge. At present many have to live at appreciable distances from their forests and this is a problem to which serious attention must be given at an early date. It is almost impossible in present circumstances to purchase suitable houses and the Department has been forced to consider the question of undertaking rather a large building programme. With this end in view, enquiries are being made into the possibilities of prefabricating suitable houses from the Department's own supplies of timber and it is hoped at an early date to make a start with one or two such buildings.

Under part (1) of sub-head C (2)— Timber Conversion—£91,945 -- provision is made for thinning and felling operations, formerly charged to cultural operations, and for the working of portable saw-milling units engaged in the preparation of nursery laths and of fencing stakes for the division's own use or for sale, etc. The division's own requirements of stakes increases yearly and while the demand for firewood is not very pressing, there are still a number of areas where it is in demand and in many cases cutting into firewood blocks is the only means of disposing of inferior timber which must be cleared to permit of the planting of more remunerative varieties. Many of the portable machines in stock have been in continual use for a number of years and are now no longer profitable to run. It will be necessary to replace them at an early date and the question of the most suitable type of machine to replace them is at present under consideration.

No increase is proposed in the provision under sub-head D—Advances for Afforestation—£2,000, out of which payment is made of the grant of £10 per acre payable, under certain conditions, to private landowners and local authorities carrying out planting operations on their own lands. For various reasons, relatively little advantage has been taken of this grant but, as soon as I am satisfied that there are adequate stocks available in the commercial nurseries, I intend to advertise the terms of the grant widely and I hope that many more people will take advantage of it.

The number of felling notices received during the past year shows a decline as compared with those received in the previous year but cover a somewhat higher number of trees. This seems to indicate a decline in the rather indiscriminate felling which arose out of war conditions and the scarcity of fuel and a return to more normal conditions of business in the trade in native timber.

Some success has been achieved in inducing compliance with the replanting obligations of felling licences and a slight improvement in the position is noticeable. The provisions of the Forestry Act of 1946, which make replanting conditions compulsory, not only on the licensee but also on his successors in title, will greatly strengthen the hands of the Forestry Division in dealing with this matter.

I should like to remind holders of licences granted under the 1928 Act that permission to fell trees contained in any licences issued under that Act will terminate on 31st March, 1951, and that after that date no further trees may be felled by virtue of such licences. Furthermore, any replanting conditions incurred under such licences must be carried out not later than 31st March, 1952. Persons concerned have, therefore, two planting seasons in which to clear themselves of liability. After that date they will be liable to prosecution without further warning.

In conclusion, I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the staff of the Forestry Division for the magnificent work they have done and the huge output, embracing so many different types of skilled activity, and I have every confidence now that the programme which the Government have set up as their goal will be attained and maintained.

The Estimate for Lands and the Estimate for Forestry are so closely associated that I would not be entirely out of order perhaps in congratulating the Minister on the educable effects of his Ministry. He has discovered the powers the commissioners have, powers which he believed apparently before he became a Minister were in the hands of the Fianna Fáil clubs. That is an advance. I might also congratulate Deputy Commons on his vindication. The vindication of Parnell was nothing to the vindication of Deputy Commons in regard to the cottage farmer.

How does the cottage farmer come under this Vote?

Sure, you will get a nice farm now for that man you are migrating. Is not that what he meant all the time? That fellow was not working in the dark. He knew what he was doing. Deputy Commons knows that. However, I had better come to forestry.

When I spoke on the Forestry Estimate last year I was accused by Deputy C. Lehane, I think, of making the same speech in 1949 as I made in 1948. I am afraid that if Deputy C. Lehane heard me to-night he would probably be in a position to make the same accusation all over again because the problem has not changed. Whatever I say in indication of my view on forestry, my statement cannot be changed because the problem is exactly the same as it was last year and the year before. Any statement by a Minister for Lands on a Forestry Estimate is always regarded as unsatisfactory by those who are enthusiastic about forestry. The Minister's statement to-night is not so very heartening.

I would be surprised if the Deputy said anything else.

I wish the Minister would stop interrupting me and let me get on with the work. The statement is not so very heartening since we seem to be a long way from the 25,000 acres that were to be so quickly planned and the bright hopes that the enthusiasts cherished have gone down the said trail of unrealised ambitions. The Minister does not seem to have grasped the fact that a stated objective is not a substitute for policy. It is all very well to say that we will plan 25,000 acres. That is a more statement of objective. In order to secure that, or any other target, there must be a considered policy and every line of that policy must be pursued to its appointed end. I am an enthusiast about forestry.

I am glad to hear it.

In anything I say to-night I give no shadow of thought to the discomfiture of the Minister or his Department. Everything I say will be directed towards trying to secure the success of a forestry programme. When speaking on the Land Bill it was my intention to try to preserve in legislation whatever seemed to me to be of continuing value and to seek for something new in legislation which might prove helpful in the solution of the problem of congestion. I propose now to follow that particular line on this Estimate.

In the Land Bill debate I must have touched the Achilles heel of the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, since he was not satisfied with finishing the debate on the Land Bill; he had to break into the Estimate on Lands. No matter what bluster or ballyhoo or bladderskite or bombilation—I am good on bees—by Deputy Dillon, Minister for Agriculture, the facts that my statement disclosed during the debate on the Land Bill still remain facts. They are incapable of being denied by the Minister for Agriculture or anybody else. I merely say that in order to illustrate the fact that I shall stick close to the point and direct my mind completely towards the development of forestry. I am rather doubtful about Deputy Dillon's——

The Minister for Agriculture.

I am rather doubtful about the Minister for Agriculture's effect on forestry and on the mind of the Minister for Lands. The Minister has said that there are about 120,000 acres more suited to forestry than to agriculture. Speaking on the Land Reclamation Bill, the Minister for Agriculture said: "There will be quadrupeds and men on the land I reclaim and trees on the land that the Minister for Lands will deal with." There was a suggestion there that quadrupeds and men are much more important than trees and may be had without trees. The tree is a definite factor in land reclamation and in keeping the land in heart. If the trees of this country die the quadrupeds and the bipeds will have an even thinner time than they have now. At the risk of being repetitive and with all due deference to Deputy C. Lehane, may I say that land is the one outstanding factor in successful forestry, land possible of acquisition and plantable. If we cannot get that kind of land swiftly we cannot solve the problem of forestry. One may take the figures for the past few years, including the figures given us by the Minister to-night. Now figures are peculiar things. They can be made to mean many things. Their interpretation by different people is not always the same.

Do not stress the obvious.

Here are the Minister's figures. I do not quote them to twist them in any fashion detrimental to the Minister. I quote them merely to show how acute and difficult is the problem the Minister has to tackle.

I do not want to put any blame on him or his Department. I merely want to analyse these figures to see exactly what they mean. In 1948—these are the Minister's figures—a purchase agreement was signed for 6,635 acres and negotiations were on foot for the purchase of 9,873 acres, a total of 16,508 acres. We acquired 3,712 acres of plantable land. For the year 1949-50 a purchase agreement was made, according to the Minister's statement to-night, for 9,122½ acres and advanced negotiations for the purchase of 10,867 acres were conducted—a total of 19,989½ acres. We acquired this year, according to the Minister, up to February 28th, 6,149 acres. These are the Minister's figures. It would seem to me that in view of the planting programme in the past few years and of our success, or lack of it, in the further acquisition of land, that the pool of plantable land in the hands of the Forestry Branch has shrunk considerably. Of course, we have very flamboyant reports of the success of the survey. I am surprised the Minister did not employ a pipers' band to parade in front of the map in the Library.

It would not be a bad idea.

It might be a good thing. I am not trying to worry the Minister; I am trying to help him. As I say, we acquired only 3,712 acres of plantable land in 1948-49 and up to the end of February this year we acquired 6,149 acres.

Where did the Deputy get these figures?

The Minister quite recently answered a question of mine in the Dáil in regard to this matter and I can give him the Dáil Report in which it is published. Of course, it may be that since February 28th, up to the 31st of March or up to whatever time the Minister's survey ends, the Minister could have purchased tremendous areas of additional land, but these are the figures the Minister gave. I am glad it is amusing to the Minister but the fact that only 3,712 acres were acquired in 1948-49 and 6,149 acres last year does not indicate that he is going to reach his target of 25,000 acres of forestry per year.

There are two bodies of opinion in the Dáil and in the country in regard to forestry. Some Deputies here say that there is no disagreement about forestry development. There is certainly no Party line in regard to forestry development. Some people in Fianna Fáil, some in Clann na Poblachta, some in Labour—I cannot vouch for Fine Gael; it is always an unknown quantity—are in favour of forestry.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Some foolish statements are made by members of all Parties. Deputy Cowan argued last year that if we were to be successful with forestry and produce good timber we would have to use arable land. The Minister does not agree with that. Neither do I. We cannot use arable land. Even if we could acquire it and if the people would consent to our acquiring it, it would be completely unwise to use any of our arable land for forestry. On the other hand, there is a vast acreage of treeless moorland and mountain land on which pasturage is very valuable to those who own that pasturage or have any rights over it. We must make a very definite effort to secure more of that land because I know from long experience, having watched these things happen, that no matter how profitable for the moment grazing on these mountain lands must be, it tends, imperceptibly perhaps, steadily to deteriorate and in a short term of years this land will be valueless both for pasturage and forestry if it not acquired quickly.

Again on much of our poorer land, semi-reclaimed moorland, many of our people eke out a rather meagre and poor existence. We must also try to get this but we must recognise that to the occupier of such land a monetary payment is hardly sufficient compensation for leaving that land no matter how poor it is. I would suggest, and the Minister apparently accepts it, that there should be an advance in the price to be paid for land. I do not want him to pay an exorbitant price but the price paid at the moment is not sufficient in order to induce these people to part with their land for forestry purposes. If there is a dwellinghouse on this land, the owner should be continued in occupation, either as owner or tenant, with a certain small amount of land attached to the house, which with forestry reinforcement would give these people some sort of adequate living. That is not unreasonable.

That is my plan.

I am glad.

I said that a year ago.

I have converted the Minister then.

I converted the Deputy.

I should be congratulated on doing a good job in opposition. The area of land taken over, 3,500 acres in one year and 6,500 acres in another, is a rather attenuated effort. I do not mean to suggest this as an indictment of the Minister or his Department. It is merely an indication of the difficulty of the problem of getting land. It may be an indication that the problem of getting land by the present methods and at the present price is insoluble. I suggest then that the Minister should be helpful and make a deal with these people, both for their own benefit and for the adequate development of forestry.

One thing that struck me in my experience is that farms at river sources, generally broad acres and very poor land, are far away from markets and from the ordinary living amenities, and from these farms families should be migrated to better land where, on small holdings with more economy, they would make a living much easier and with better profit. That would give to the Forestry Department a large quantity of land where, for various reasons, forestry would do the most good to the country.

And no labour to work it.

Deputy Dunne and myself will deal with that aspect later —the labour to work it.

We can bring them back.

You can get labourers to go to the North Pole; they have gone to darkest Africa and to everywhere in the world.

I would not like to see trees crushing out the population.

I would like to see trees growing anywhere.

You did not grow so many of them when you were in power.

In the past few years, even when the Fianna Fáil clubs relinquished their hold on the Land Commission, there has been a vast advance in soil and forestry science. I think the widest field of acquisition is in land hitherto regarded as unplantable. The Minister has given us to-night, in answer to a question, the idea that he possibly favours that method, because he said that he proposes to purchase reclamation machinery. I should like if he would tell us in more detail, when he is replying to this debate, what the nature of that machinery is, how much is going to be expended on it, and when we may see it in operation. I wonder would Deputy Davin, in Leix and Offaly, like to hear Deputy Donnellan blowing his whistle, to see it going on again? That was a valuable whistle.

We started things down there, anyhow.

You picked up a queer crowd there.

This is our own problem and there is no good in enthusiasts quoting here the progress in New Zealand or the progress in England. There is no land problem in New Zealand and the system of tenure in England is altogether different from ours. We have a much more difficult job of acquisition and the Minister should not be diverted from his task by uninformed statements of what the success is that attends forestry in New Zealand or England. There is no relation between forestry in Ireland and those countries.

Might I suggest again that there is no good in depending on the individual owner to make a sacrifice for the community? We must try to educate the community as to the benefits that accrue from forestry, and we must try to induce them to accept the responsibility for the carrying out of the work. What are the benefits? I would like to reiterate this, because this debate is probably the only opportunity that forestry gets during the year of any publicity. To my mind one of the benefits is economic security. During the recent war, as a result of the fact that we had not a forestry system suitable to our purposes, we were brought into a parlous condition. The building trade almost came to a complete stop. Houses that we wanted to build, hospitals, the much derided hotels, schools, office buildings, factories— they all had to be stopped because we had not the timber. Slums were deteriorating, buildings got worse and many skilled craftsmen had to emigrate because we had not timber of our own, because the amount of growing timber convertible into merchantable wood, and the imported stuff, was not sufficient for our needs.

Bad and all as was our condition in regard to building, our condition in regard to fuel would have been bad but for the amount of timber in the hedgerows and woodlands available to augment our turf. The only regrettable feature is that while most of that wood was not convertible for building purposes, nevertheless it did destroy a good deal of the beauty of our countryside. That was most regrettable.

We are prone to regard damage done in Ireland as a result of forestry denudation as of very little account compared to the damage done in other countries. In America particularly it is a commonplace to hear of huge losses of property and great loss of life due to forestry denudation. The huge continental rivers and mountains take a toll because of human disregard for nature. We do not take much notice of that happening here, but it does happen and relatively to our size it happens in the same fashion. Recurring floods, continued spells of fine weather, alter our streams from being a constant run of water to alternate spate and trickle.

There is erosion in this country. I am very familiar every year with the damage done in my constituency by one particular river. I know that if the catchment area of that river was properly afforested, the damage would be greatly obviated. Forest deposit creates a sponge-like mass that releases water slowly and gives us a more regular run of water.

The Deputy did not do very much about it when he had a chance for 16 years, and of course Deputy de Valera wrung his hands in despair. But his day is done.

If the catchment areas of the rivers were properly afforested, it would be far better for this country. When he is replying to this debate I should like the Minister to give us a more detailed account of the stocks he has on hands. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 3rd May, 1950.
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