Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Jun 1950

Vol. 121 No. 16

Adjournment Debate. - Fertiliser Imports.

Mr. McGrath

To-day I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce whether his attention had been drawn to a statement made at the Cork Council of Irish Unions and published in a morning newspaper, the Cork Examiner, of the 17th June, 1950, that it had come to their notice that since the last weekly meeting of the council some fertilisers had come in in the finished state; that up to this the fertilisers came in the raw state with the result that the article was finished in the Irish factory, thereby creating immense employment, and that the employees in the chemical industry were worried because they felt their employment might be affected, and if he would state whether imports of finished fertilisers have been permitted recently, and, if so, he would take effective steps to prevent such imports in future. The reply was as follows:—

"I have made inquiries into the matter raised in the question. I am aware that fertilisers are being imported in the finished state and they have been so imported since supplies became available, but I have no knowledge of any unemployment in the Irish fertiliser factories because of the imports, as the demand for these fertilisers is greater than the home manufacturers can supply. For this reason, quota restrictions on imports have been suspended for some time and facilities are given for importing fertilisers free of duty. Until there is evidence that the manufacturers are in a position to supply the full requirements of the market the question of preventing imports does not arise."

My information is that Messrs. Goulding had an order from the Irish Sugar Company and that they had gone to the trouble of installing a hopper, instead of using the automatic scales they had, so that this commodity could be weighed in 2-cwt. bags: that they had bags specially branded for 2 cwts., instead of the previous 1 cwt. Deputy Lynch and myself are interested in this matter from the point of view of the giving of labour in Cork City. We are primarily interested in the employees of this firm and their families. This firm has been giving a considerable amount of employment over a long number of years. The wages earned by the employees are a big advantage to the City of Cork and especially to the Blackpool district, where most of them are spent. I am informed that there was no question of not being able to fill all the orders Messrs. Goulding got for phosphates. The Parliamentary Secretary said to-day that they were not able to fill them. My information is that they had a sufficient amount of these phosphates in stock to meet the requirements of the trade for a considerable time.

I understand that on the 12th June the sugar company imported 2,200 tons of phosphates and that Messrs. Goulding's order was stopped. I understand that there was some hitch about the loading of it but I think that that would have been surmounted. The Minister for Agriculture to-day interjected that he hoped to God I would raise this matter. I am raising it now and I hope that his attitude towards the fertiliser factories will not be the same as his attitude in regard to beet and our beet factories. I sincerely hope that he does not prefer to give employment to the foreigner in connection with the phosphate industry rather than to the men of Cork City.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce recently started a buyers' campaign. If he is really sincere about that he will do what I requested in the question — he will take effective steps to ensure that no more of this commodity will arrive in a finished state; that it will come in, as it had been coming in, in a raw state and that the men in Cork will be able to continue in the employment of Messrs. Goulding. There is a considerable amount of employment in Cork when a cargo of raw phosphates arrives. It has to be unloaded and carted out to Blackpool. At Blackpool it has again to be unloaded from the lorries. It has then to be ground, reloaded and carted away again. All that work is of considerable benefit to the City of Cork. It would be a sad state of affairs if we were to depend on the foreigner to do all the work for us while our own people stand idle. I do not believe that that is the Minister's policy, and he should, therefore, look carefully into this matter. I asked if it was a fact that that was happening. I understand that it is a fact and that these fertilisers are coming in. I do not want to make any capital out of this. All I want is to ensure that our men are continued in their employment.

When I was talking on this subject to-day, Deputy P. D. Lehane interjected and asked if the Parliamentary Secretary was aware that the firm in question are charging an excessive price for these fertilisers. I understand that the question of price did not arise in this connection. I may not be correct. However, I heard the Minister for Industry and Commerce, on the debate on his Estimate, say that one of the reasons for the increase in the cost of living is that the cost has been increased in respect of most of the articles which are manufactured in this country. I do not know whether that is true or not, but I think we have proved that the sugar which we manufacture is cheaper than foreign sugar— despite the statement of the Minister for Agriculture that if the factories were blown up we could give an extra 2/6 in respect of children's allowances.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should keep to the debate.

Mr. McGrath

I do not want that attitude adopted towards the fertiliser industry.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Cosgrave)

It was Deputy MacEntee who said that.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister for Industry and Commerce said that one of the reasons for the increase in the cost of living was that most of the articles manufactured by Irish industrialists had increased in price. Maybe they have: maybe they have not. Certainly, I do not believe that it was a question of price in itself. If it was, let us have it and, if it was, are we to take it that an article manufactured in Cork is not supposed to get the same benefit as other industries? That is the position as it has been put to me. I am convinced that my information is correct—that about 7,000 tons of phosphates were in stock in this country, that they had no trouble in getting in more of the raw phosphates and that they had not refused anybody who asked for supplies.

Mr. Lynch

I should like to say a few words in support of the case made by Deputy McGrath. At the outset I should like to point out that, as may have been suggested by an interjection by the Minister for Agriculture to-day, we have no ulterior motive whatever in raising this question. The Minister for Agriculture said that we were trying to protect the rings — meaning, of course, that we were trying to create a monopoly so that the manufacturers of fertilisers in this country would be able to exact undue profits. That matter is beside this question entirely but, in fairness to the firm, the employees of which we are interested in, I will say that it has been manufacturing fertilisers since about 1835, and that firm has been performing a very useful function, particularly in giving necessary employment, apart from providing fertilisers for the agricultural community.

There is a wider issue involved, and that is the question of giving Irish manufacturers a chance of producing a commodity that would otherwise have to be imported unless a certain amount of protection is given. I have always been a believer in protection in so far as it benefits Irish industry, and in order to expand the scope of employment. I believe that in the long run it is a far better economic proposition to enable our men and women to be employed at home rather than have to emigrate. Whatever may be the truth of Deputy Lehane's remark that this firm has been charging excessive prices for its commodities, I am sure that the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Agriculture have ample powers to restrict any undue profit-making by this firm and that charge cannot be properly laid at the door of this firm inasmuch as it has been in operation for at least 150 years. Added to that, there is the fact that a certain amount of fertilisers is being imported lately, and this firm has been able to operate successfully in opposition to these imported fertilisers. That gives the lie to any suggestion that there is excessive charging for the product of this firm.

Our main concern is that a big number of employees, particularly in the Blackpool area of Cork, a big number of men and women, get employment, seasonal though it may be, through the manufacture of fertilisers in Gouldings. The fertiliser, in the form of ground phosphate, the same as was permitted to be imported by the Minister free of duty, was available in ample quantities at this particular time in Messrs. Gouldings' factory in Cork. They had imported phosphate unground and the grinding of that phosphate and, as Deputy McGrath pointed out, the transporting of it from the quays to the factory and from there to the merchants, provided considerable employment. If this importation of ground phosphate was permitted to go on unrestricted, it would necessarily mean a serious reduction in the amount of employment available in Messrs. Gouldings.

I understand that at a peak period in Gouldings some 205 men and 12 women were able to get employment. At the particular time this consignment of ground phosphate was permitted to be imported and sold to the Irish Sugar Company, there were approximately 130 men and seven women employed in the factory. That left scope for the employment of about 80 men. Naturally, the workers must be concerned by the fact that an Irish firm supplying a necessary commodity like sugar was permitted to buy imported ground phosphate, while at the same time that commodity was lying in the stores of a reputable firm in Cork. It was lying in the stores of this firm and so precluded a certain amount of employment being given by reason of the fact that this consignment of a couple of thousand tons was imported and delivered straight into railway wagons for transport to the beet factories at Tuam, Carlow and Mallow.

It is true that at a certain time of the year if the sugar company had made a demand on Gouldings it might not have been possible for them to supply it, but the tragedy of this situation is that Gouldings had the commodity on hand and had actually received an order from the sugar company and made certain provisions for supplying it to the sugar company, and in the meantime the order was supplied by an outside firm of foreigners, thereby not only depriving Gouldings of a fair profit but depriving several men of employment over a considerable period.

That is the main reason for raising this question here. I know the area very well, and so does Deputy McGrath, in which most of the men employed at Gouldings live. It is not a particularly prosperous area, and in view of the fact that they get only seasonal employment in Gouldings, I think the position is all the more serious. I am very concerned over the principle of permitting imports of commodities that can be manufactured here, and not only can they be manufactured but they were available for distribution here. In view of the particular circumstances of the area concerned, I am perturbed that the Minister should have been lax enough to allow this commodity to be imported and distributed, thereby depriving so many men and women of gainful employment.

There is no question of concern for the profits of this firm in our minds, but they certainly deserve every encouragement from the point of view of the length of time they have been manufacturing fertilisers, the reasonably constant employment they have been giving at least to a section of their workers and the seasonal employment they have been giving to the remainder. I therefore ask the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that in the future a proper examination will be given to problems such as this. When an Irish concern places an order and then finds itself in a position to avail of imported fertilisers, I think the Minister should use whatever powers he has to ensure that the Irish commodity is first used up before any foreign commodity is permitted to be sold on the Irish market.

Mr. Cosgrave

It would be well, I think, that we should first of all get the facts of this case right. The facts are that Messrs. Goulding had an order from the sugar company which the firm had accepted and arrangements were in train to supply it. Prior to the delivery, the firm insisted on a new term which obliged the sugar company to load the fertiliser with their own employees, or alternatively that they were to pay stowing or loading charges. When that stipulation was insisted on the sugar company felt that it was a breach of the original agreement and that they were no longer bound to the terms, so that any arrangement which Gouldings were in a position to make with the sugar company would stand provided this new stipulation had not been introduced. The sugar company had also arranged for the importation of a cargo or a supply of a certain quantity of rock phosphate. That was independent of and in addition to the order to Gouldings, so that it is not correct to say, as has been alleged here, that the imported phosphate interfered with the supply from the home factory.

I understand that the stipulation that loading, or stowage, should be carried out by the sugar company's employees was a new term not formerly incorporated in agreements of this nature. The cancellation of the order was due to that stipulation. No representations have been made at any time that this firm found itself in difficulties due to the imports of phosphates. In fact, the position is that for a number of years the duties on fertilisers of all kinds have been suspended. This question, which was put down to-day by Deputy McGrath, refers to fertilisers in general. It may be that the specific type of rock phosphate which was concerned in this particular contract could have been supplied and is, in fact, available from Gouldings at the moment, but this is a general question dealing with the supply of fertilisers generally. The position is, there is a demand here in excess of anything that can be supplied from home sources.

I think I should say, in fairness, that this matter was raised last week with me in a letter from Deputy Hickey. It was raised to-day by Deputy McGrath in his question and by Deputy Lynch in a supplementary question. The question of slackness in the factory is due to seasonal causes. It may be that work would have been continued for a slightly longer period if this contract had been fulfilled, but I understand that the company are still open to discuss the matter with Gouldings if they are in a position to arrange terms. The cancellation of the contract was due to the new clause which was introduced.

Mr. McGrath

By whom?

Mr. Cosgrave

By the firm. I am after telling the Deputy that the stowage or loading——

Mr. McGrath

Not the firm?

Mr. Cosgrave

The union. I think when Deputies come in here and I accept their bona fides in raising a question, if a matter of this kind is brought up every avenue should be explored, particularly in this case, where a new stipulation was introduced by the union. I probably created a wrong impression by saying “the firm”. The fact is that this new stipulation hit the men. Surely the men can use their influence in their trade union to get a matter of this kind rectified. In fact, the demand for fertilisers at the moment is probably higher than it has been in recent years, because this particular type of fertiliser is now wanted in connection with the land rehabilitation project. I believe that if the Deputies concerned used their influence with the people in control of the union, or requested the men to approach the union, that an agreement could be arrived at.

I want, however, to make it quite clear that the Minister took no action, nor is any action contemplated, which would affect the supply of cheap fertilisers for the farmers of this country. There is now available a bigger market for fertilisers than at any time in recent years, and that position will obtain for a very considerable period ahead. It should provide full employment in all the Irish fertiliser factories.

Mr. Briscoe

Did the Parliamentary Secretary give that advice to Deputy Hickey, and did he advise him to withdraw that demand?

Mr. Cosgrave

The Deputy should not try to make political capital out of this. When a sugar factory was first introduced here, I would remind him that the person who described it as a "white elephant" was his colleague, Deputy MacEntee.

Mr. Briscoe

I understand there is a rule in the trade unions that there has to be a second man for certain types of loading. What I want to know is whether the Parliamentary Secretary has, in fact, given the same advice to Deputy Hickey, who has greater influence or should have with the unions, than he has now given to Deputy McGrath and Deputy Lynch?

Mr. Cosgrave

I am giving it to all the Deputies.

Mr. Briscoe

I am asking the question. I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary realises that there is this stipulation with regard to certain types of loading.

Mr. Cosgrave

I do.

Mr. Briscoe

That is the trouble.

Mr. Cosgrave

Surely, if the people who are affected by this are the workers rather than the firm, either they should use their influence with their fellow workers or with the representatives of the unions which are directly interested, and try to get the matter rectified, because the suspension of the duty, or tariff, in no way affects the particular case here. For one reason, as I mentioned, the supplies from abroad were additional to this particular cargo. I suggest to Deputy McGrath, Deputy Lynch and Deputy Hickey, that they should use their influence with the union and with the men employed in the factory, to see if they can effect a satisfactory solution of the problem.

Mr. McGrath

Does the Parliamentary Secretary agree that the question I put is the same as the statement in the newspaper cutting which I sent him?

Mr. Cosgrave

It may be that this particular type of rock phosphate can be met from home sources at the moment, but generally the supply of fertilisers is inadequate to meet the needs of the country. The Deputy will probably recollect that his question is in quite general terms.

Mr. McGrath

Will the Parliamentary Secretary allow me to ask if the statement that was made in the newspaper was correct?

Mr. Cosgrave

I did not see any statement.

Mr. McGrath

Of course, my question was put, if you like, in a different way. I quoted the statement that was made at a meeting of the Cork Council of Irish Unions.

Mr. Cosgrave

I do not seem to have a copy of the statement. I have given the facts, and I think I have made it quite clear that this is not due to the suspension of the duty.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, the 27th June, 1950.